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Getting Through : In Remembrance
Nonsense..... | from Haunted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005
accessed 4124 times This article has been reposted.
My friend deserves more than this petty squabling among those who should consider themselves comrades in this fight against our abusers.... |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Nancy
Monday, November 28, 2005 - 10:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's amazing how so many of us get sucked into this. This all started when lotstoforget made a nasty remark about something I wrote about someone who just passed away, and now it's a debate over Merry Berg and whether more than 10-15% of us ever suffered any "real" abuse. I defended what I said in my comment about Rebecca thinking lotstoforget had actually misunderstood me. Then others joined in. And before any of us realized, we were sucked into a debate on child abuse and what happened to us as children. It happened because as each person joined in, they were attacked in areas which lie very close to their hearts and are very personal to them. This elicited further responses from them, and wham, they're full up defending an argument regarding the very essense of what the cult did to them and others. It's really quite clever if it didn't do so much damage to people. That damage being promoting cynicism, revictimizing and detering any real platform for sincere comments.
Regardless of what I and others may think, I believe the bottom line is this. When folks like lotstoforget start disparaging comments which are made sincerely, it only serves to promote cynicism and deter people from talking honestly about their emotions and feeling, which are real and at the heart of what all of us experienced in the cult and continue to experience everyday we live with what the cult did to us, our siblings and our friends. When those folks, like lotstoforget, become vocal, which this thread is a perfect example of, the website becomes a place where one cannot be sincere and express emotion without being attacked. I encountered this a few years ago on this site. I saw how it affected me. It changed me for awhile for the worse. But, I won't let it change me now. And other folks shouldn't let it change them, either. People should not be detered from talking about the pain and sadness and all the real human emotions that come from our experiences. Because if we can't be honest here, then where? People should not be attacked for expressing feelings about what happened to them, their siblings and friends, especially when one of those people dies, which seems to happen all too often.
Step back and look at the whole picture of what happened here in this thread, which is an example of what has happened on this website for years, just with posters by other names. Here is someone with an agenda and a lot of anger and frustration lashing out at people around him spouting all the stuff he was taught as a brainwashed cult member. We respond because his attacks go to the heart of what we experienced as children and how it effects us today. We get sucked into it. We get angry and respond, and in so doing, we feed into the whole cult agenda to disparge us, call us liars and revictimize us. Because when we finally get angry about the attacks, then the attacks change to "raging," "Vandari demons," "bitter," "crazy" and out of control.
Well, despite its unnovel nature, it seems to work so well even to this day. We are attacked and criticized about things which lie so deep, our emotional pain we feel due to our experiences as children in an abusive cult. The attacks and smears of liar, exagerator, bitter, melodramatic, pathetic, angry, unmoved on, and all the garden variety disparagement the cult promotes through whoever is pitiful enough to be their mouthpiece of the moment, regardless of whether the voice does so conciously or not, because the most successful cult promoters are those who engage in such actions unknowingly, revictimize us. We respond. We respond in anger because such attacks naturally anger us. But, then in our response, the voice of the moment, whether it is 7* or lotstoforget or whomever, uses our responses to further attack us. It leads to an environment in which the only way to prevent attack is to keep quiet about our pain and what the cult did to us and our friends and never talk honestly or sincerely about anything, which is exactly what the cult dreams would happen to all of us.
They want us to become the mindless, soulless robots who feel nothing, care about no one and nothing, except our own self-promotion. "Don't dwell on past experiences." "Move on." "Forgive and forget." "Do what we are doing" which is focusing only on ourselves and making money for our cult, group, home, family or self. "Don't dwell on other people" like your siblings and friends. "Forget about them" like we did years ago when we trew them away like garbage. "We forgot about them long ago." "Why can't you?" "Why do you have to be so emotional and dramatic and unforgiving about a little sexual abuse and a few beatings?" "It was years ago for God's sake." "It was so long ago, you certainly can't prove anything." "Why do you even care when someone dies?" "Look at Queen Maria." "Her own son died and she certainly didn't get so worked up." "My God, she didn't even feel." "Why can't you be more like that?" "Don't disparge someone elses opinion just because he thinks you're fucking pathetic and melodramatic for feeling sad because someone died." "They're in heaven now." "And certainly don't agree with someone else because then you're just trying to a little hero boy." "And just because you open yourself and your life up to public scrutiny by going on national television and talking about abuse the cult doled out to you and your siblings doesn't mean it really happened." "It just means you think you're special and want people to look up to you because you admitted to the world you were molested and beaten and discarded by your parents under a cult's direction." "Come on." "Everyone knows that it the oldest trick in the book to become successful, looked up to and respected, just admit you were abused as a child on national TV." "And don't talk to me about something that happened when you were a child, if you didn't report it to the police and see that the perpetrator and all his cohorts on six continents were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law." "If your abuser isn't serving a life sentence, then you certainly were never abused." "Uh, and your drivel about feeling sadness over the death of a friend or sibling or peer irks me, so shut up, you and all your friends on this website." "You all make me and the Prophet and the cult sick."
How about instead of allowing this to happen over and over and over again to us here, how about we just have a cult rhetoric article or thread where folks who want to spout cult doctrines adn arguments can go and just highlight whatever argument or propaganda they feel like promoting that day? It would certainly save them time in having to retype it in this and other threads. It would also save us a lot of time in having to reply to propaganda posts made below our comments. Those who want to support and promote the propaganda voice can then just go to the cult propaganda thread and give the voice of the day thumbs up. It really does solve a big problem. It also prevents the whole website and especially sincere threads and comments, which is what this thread started as, from being draged down into the same old cynical "you didn't suffer abuse, so shut up" debate, which is what this has again become.
(reply to this comment)
|  From Big Sister
Monday, November 28, 2005, 12:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
I like the idea of having a "From TFI's point of view" thread. TFers could post directly there or comments could be voted to be moved there, kinda like the Trailer Park. As an outsider here, I would very much like to read the cult's comments and reactions; I find their totalistic logic fascinating and instructive. I think this helps everyone, including current TF members, to observe cult thinking and writing all lined up in one place for ease of comparison and critique.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Fish
Monday, November 28, 2005 - 07:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Come ye all to the chatroom.
(reply to this comment)
| from supporter
Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 19:38
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Do any of you that are saying just name names press charges etc ,know how hard it is to get the authorities to act without physical evidence IE;bruising ,cuts,bodily fluids.For some it has been over 10 years, most cops just say well we can't do much about this without a confession from the perpertraitor.I have been told after only 4 years that it is to long.Don't let that stop anyone though.You can get charges laid ,but i don't blame half of these girls for giving up before they even get started because of the negative comments from dickheads that say fondling is not a crime ,how would you like someone fondling your 4 year old daughter ,i hope you dont think that is OK.
(reply to this comment)
| from Thunder7
Friday, November 25, 2005 - 15:13
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Tips for sounding believable:
say 'I' not 'we',
'me' not 'us',
'(name)' not 'this guy/uncle/dude/man/creep'
and for fuck's sake start pressing charges. we heard all the stories, now do something about them. and if it never happened to you, and you never saw it happen then don't tell the stories. there are better ways to help then to repeat someone's story over and over.
THIS IS MY OPINION. I'M NOT SAYING THAT MY OPINION IS THE RIGHT ONE. ANY RESPONSES TO THIS COMMENT INSINUATING OTHERWISE WILL RENDER THE WRITER AN UNEDUCATED MORON -- IN MY OPINION.
(reply to this comment)
| From Nancy
Monday, November 28, 2005, 11:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, God damn it! Shut the fuck up about "we." I don't care if you experienced abuse at a cult school or combo in a foreign country. I don't care if you witnessed abuse committed against thirty or fourty other children in the school or combo. I certainly don't give a flip if you stood between an abuser and your own sibling who was being beaten. What you witnessed and experienced in public humilations, silence restrictions, hard labor, rotten apple groups, public beatings, sexual assaults and medical and educational neglect wasn't real unless you broke free from the closet in which you were sleeping, tore off that silence restriction sign and tape over your mouth, ran away from the school, encountered the authorities and media, brought them back to the school, personally testified to all the abuse you witnessed, pressed charges for the abuse you suffered, stripped naked and allowed them to see physical evidence of the abuse, and damn it, those bruises and signs of penetration better still be there, and participated in a trial, even as a minor, which resulted in full conviction of everyone involved. And since I certainly don't have any knowledge of any of those actions, I don't want to hear it because it irks me. You're fucking pathetic! It sounds exactly like those liars over there in Kosovo whining about ethnic cleansing when no one has been convicted. Come on, folks! And I don't give a rats ass if there are hundreds or thousands of you telling the same story about abusers which occurred in different countries. Don't say we! Only lotstoforget and I can say we!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Nancy
Monday, November 28, 2005, 11:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was waiting for that pointless little jab. It was the only one missing between "deep breath," "calm down," the comments about Daniel's health, the bitterness crap, the hero boy smears, and the angry and frustrated slights. Well, now that I think of it, that's really part and parcel to the angry and frustrated junk.
Do get some new material. This stuff is getting predictable. I'm surprised we haven't seen the education and spelling and grammar disses. Oh, that's right. There were some educated moron ilk shoveled out below.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Saturday, November 26, 2005, 14:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
How can you be "one who knows" that "a lot of people on this site claim abuse and tell horrible stories of sexual abuse that never happened to them"?
You haven't interviewed every participant on this site. You don't know everyone's personal stories. How can you possibly make such an assumption and attempt to pass it off as fact?
But let's pretend for a moment that you are right.
Why do you think it is wrong to champion the cause of an abused individual? Would you have said, "Tell your own story" to the lawyers, friends and family speaking out on behalf of the victims of Catholic priests?
How do you propose to get the legal name (without help from WS) of a person you only knew as "Uncle John"?
How do you expect someone to press charges against someone they cannot find (without help from WS)?
And finally, why do you think people should shut up about a past that is in every way a part of them and always will be?
Please tell me you actually considered all this before making your above statement.
I'm sure you realize that you come across as callous and arrogant in your posts (I'm assuming you are Thunder7). Do you expect people to take you seriously and try to see your point or are you only mouthing off?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From lotstoforget
Saturday, November 26, 2005, 16:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hi Johnny!
Good post. I think I understand what Thunder is trying to say. I brought up similar sentiments below. Instead of the “Firsthand accounts of abuse survivors” story, which only lends itself to literally throw out the baby with the bathwater, let’s do something more serious. That story is rather nauseating, confusing and for the discerning eye obviously naïve in many parts, as it relates so many accounts that obviously have nothing to do with abuse, as the law defines abuse. Instead, let’s have a “real abuse” thread, detailing events, giving names of places, uncles, aunties, etc. Don’t put any “he touched me, he groped me, he spanked my sister” accounts in there, but only those that are clearly describing abuse that took place. The rest is just plain confusing. Then present it, first on this website, finally to the TFI, asking for clarification on certain people and cooperation in tracking them down. Keep the accounts down to a minimum, only the strongest of cases. And don’t make a case for someone else, like Tuneman. Sorry, but it just doesn’t fly. Mene is the only one who can do something about her situation.
Again, for the law, as well as for the Family, even these are only accounts of “alleged” abuse, because they haven’t been tried yet, nobody has been convicted of anything. So the Family will probably not go too far out of their way to cooperate, but chances are much better like this, than with the old “FAOAS” file. It’s worth a try, I think.
I don’t know about the law in the US too much, but over here you can press charges against anyone.
I don’t know, Johnny, if you have witnessed personally any abuse accounts, real ones. If not you probably just believe certain stories you’ve been hearing. That’s your prerogative of course. But watch out, I’ve burned my fingers lots of times by taking sides like this. Wait until you witness your first real life cross examination in a tough case where you had some feelings either way! I like to believe Tuneman and his account about his sister, but I’ve seen too much, had too many surprises happening to me to make this mistake (of taking sides on something I haven’t witnessed) again. Ever! By law someone is innocent until proven guilty and the “alleged” word is a good one to keep in mind when we’re judging anything. At times, most times, people have axes to grind, hidden agendas and motives, they’re trying to get even, they’re repeating what they’ve heard from others, they like to believe something happened and on and on it goes. This website as a whole doesn’t make a good case convincing any professional. There is too much hype, hyperbole, foul language, profanity and ill-temper here. It doesn’t serve your case. I can hear the howling of some sectors here already. It's fine, I'm used to it. Straighten out your act on this site, is my advise.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 15:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
You said: "I don’t know, Johnny, if you have witnessed personally any abuse accounts, real ones. If not you probably just believe certain stories you’ve been hearing. That’s your prerogative of course."
Yes, I have both witnessed and experienced physical abuse and experienced sexual abuse.
Let me ask you something: What do you think I or any other person coming forward with our stories of abuse have to gain by lying? Do you think it gives people pleasure to recount a messed up past? Do you think their collegues and friends will always react positively when hearing their stories?
You said: "By law someone is innocent until proven guilty and the “alleged” word is a good one to keep in mind when we’re judging anything."
Yes, this is true. But how can I say "Uncle Steven ALLEGEDLY beat an 11-year-old boy with a solid plastic rod while while 2 teenage boys held the kid down" if I saw it with my own two eyes? How can I not call it abuse when I would kill before allowing the same thing to happen to my daughters?
You, lotstoforget, have never met some of the people who recount their stories of abuse on this website. I have. Thus, I would challenge you, as I have many others, to meet these people and listen to their stories. After that, I want you to look them dead in the eyes and tell them with a straight face that they are lying.
Do that before you brush off these stories as heartlessly as you do here.
The bottom line is, lotstoforget, you have bought into the Family's line of "bitter exaggerating ex-members". I did too. When I left 4 years ago, I honestly thought people made up some of this stuff. If you're anything like me (and being German myself, you just might be) you'll come to your own well-researched conclusion before accepting things you hear at face value.(reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 09:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wait until you witness your first real life cross examination in a tough case where you had some feelings either way!
People have brought this up 3 times already.
Read the Judgement of Lord Justice Ward in the British Court Case.
Read the transcript of cross examination of witnesses.
Witnesses, including Mene, but not just her, endured not minutes, not hours, but days and in some cases weeks of cross examination and were found "Very Credible" by Lord Justice Ward.
Read. .. Read. ... Read.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 09:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not going to get into every single part of your post that I don't agree with, but I will say that I strongly take issue with this statement:
'Don't put any "He touched me, he groped me..." accounts in there...'
Do you realise what you're saying here, buddy??? I hope you aren't a parent and never will be one, because you sure as hell won't be much of a protector and defender if you genuinely feel that if an adult man 'groped and touched' your prepubescent daughter, he would not be sexually abusing her.
Do you realise how much you denigrate your own arguments when you come up with stupid shit like that to say?
I wholeheartedly pity you and your screwed up existence, but, as always, I am more than happy to let you stew in your delusions. Just don't expect me to give you or your opinions any serious consideration.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Anovagrrl
Saturday, November 26, 2005, 19:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mene has made her own case. Have you read The Last State? Have you read the testimony that Mene gave to Lord Justice Ward? Do you know her current condition in life? She is a methamphetamine addict who lived on the streets and turned tricks until very recently. Are you aware of studies showing well over 90% of addicted streetwalkers have an extensive history of childhood abuse? If you read a source document like The Last State, there will be little question about whether Mene is in the 90%.
I am a mental health professional who did my dissertation on defining childhood sexual abuse in a variety of cultural contexts. I worked for many years in residential treatment and therapeutic fostercare with adolescent girls in permanent custody of the state due to childhood abuse. As a clinical social worker, I participated in a number of abuse investigations and have given expert testimony. Last year I taught an undergraduate course on adolescent and young adult sexuality at a major university. The syllabus included sexual abuse and predatory behaviors. I currently supervise a $50,000 research project on the treatment of trauma and participate in a statewide network to promote best practices in the treatment of childhood trauma.
I have never had any doubt about the authenticity of the stories I read on this website. From a purely clinical standpoint, the stories ring true. From a clinical research standpoint, one of the more unique aspects of the experiences recounted on this site are the corroborating evidence in MLs and GNs that the sexualization of children in TFI was official policy & practice. Are you familiar with the ML where Berg describes giving 5-year-old Davida a lap ride with his penis "like the big girls do"--?
Regarding "innocent until proven guilty": The vast majority of people who perpetrate sexual crimes against children and adolescents are never publically exposed to an accusation. Among those who are accused, the majority are rarely ever arrested, prosecuted, or convicted. The inability of the legal system to adequately address the issue means really horrific shit happens to children and adolescents all the time with very little consequence to anyone other than the victims. (reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 09:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks Anovagrrl,
Lotstoforget and others here are cult ploys. Don't bother engaging them.
Note a pattern, they ask questions, questions are answered, they harp on the same data. They don't answer questions given to them.
Lotstoforget has been asked if he read the judgement of the Lord Justice Ward several times. He hasn't answered.
He says it's inappropriate for me to be upset/echo what happened to my sister. Well if a brother doesn't have a right to have a voice for the sister which was taken from him, vilely abused, I don't know who does.
Besides, it's not my opinion, there is court testimony where TFI was caught in several fibs, but those brave young girls who testified were all found "very credible" by the Lord Justice Ward.
Lotstoforget never addresses this.
Also he's wrong. Mene is not the only one who can speak others were there with her; Armendria, Davida, Ricky, adult leadership who have since left. Every single person confirms her story or is dead after confirming her story.
Lotstofroget never addresses this.
Lotstoforget and others are clearly cult operatives. None of their arguments make any sense or serve any purpose other than to try to downplay the plight of victims.
There is this thin viel of "if you write this stuff you hurt yourself", which is nonsense. Typical cultic circular logic.
Speaking about the abuse which you suffered is theraputic. If others don't want to read it they don't have to.
Also, contrary to what lotstoforget says, it doesn't hurt the legal process or cause authorities to take the situation less seriously or lessen the chance of justice.
This is where you see just how cowardly these cultists are. They won't address the issues. They go after the messengers, always have, that's what Berg taught them to do.
Now they're not content to spread their nonsense on myconfusion.com, also they refuse to address any of the issues brought to them by the media, refuse to show up and answer their accusers. The best they can do is engage survivors in their own venue.
Very cowardly.
And Lotstoforget, if you want to open up your own minimalizing, attacking pro-cult article somewhere that's fine, you're afforded that on this site, unlike myconclusion.com where survivors are afforded nothing. Have the guts to at least do that.
It's almost surreal when I think about it. ... You've got someone who is calling into question the truthfulness of survivors etc., clearly a cult ploy, what other inncentive for this type of behavior is there?
We'll be tracking IP blocks, geo locs, etc., many of these posts are coming from the same person. Count on a cult to be a cult. ... Very low.(reply to this comment) |
| | From lotstoforget
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 13:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry, Tuneman, small world you live in! I feel truly sorry for you. You are basically calling me a cult member, because you just can’t accept that there are other opinions beside yours. One day maybe you’ll wake up and you will see what diversity there is on earth – and you will feel so small. Presently you see the world black and white in sort of a Jebus “Your either with me or against me” context.
Cult operatives, cult ploys, you’ll be tracking IP blocks, geo locs, etc., WHAT on God’s earth are you talking about??? This is called paranoid schizophrenia – I think you are taking after your sister, man. Maybe this just runs in your family. The world’s nuthouses are full of cases that never heard about the TFI. Better watch out, turn around – what do you see? Can you hear me? I’m right outside your window! Boo! Never mind it’s on the 8th floor – I’m there man, I’m there. Keep tracking them blocks, boy, and don’t forget the geo locks, you hear me? (reply to this comment) |
| | From schizophrenia?
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 16:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Take time to read and understand DISSOCIATIVE DISORDER and how it comes about and how it is mis-diagnosed as schizophrenia.
It also tells why people get it in the first place, rape, imprisonment, physical assault, isolation, abuse, humiliation etc. ...
If you read this article you might learn something, not that you need to since you're so knowledgable on everything in the world, including the misfortunes of others.
http://www.sidran.org/didbr.html
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Haunted
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 16:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Woah dude!
"taking after his sister"?
Mene was raped, tied down, beaten, publicly humiliated and mentally abused by her own grandfather!
I'm glad you didn't suffer the same, but if the poor girl is just a wee bit disturbed, can you really blame her?
Maybe your psyche could have stood up to what she endured, but is that any reason to write her off as a 'crazy woman'?
It's a scientific fact that those who have been severely abused can sometimes develop severe mental disorders, the least of which is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Please do your reseach before you insinuate that Mene's problems are due to anything else than the fact that she was tormented and that running away from reality was perhaps the only way she found to continue living....(reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 16:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Still no comment on Lord Justice Ward's findings.
You ignore the issues every single time and go on to personal attacks.
Enough with the personal attacks. Address the issues.
Tell me and the others who have asked here, what it is that you think happened to Mene. Explain why you disagree with Lord Justice Ward whe he calls her testimony and that of others "very credible".
Explain your minimization of the Last State which others have put questions to you about, which you don't answer, but rather retort with personal attacks.
Provide some basis for explaining why you think certain things.
Explain why it is that you think, based on what you have written that it is okay for a adult to sexually batter, sexually assault, verbally and physically assualt a minor, what you refer to as "he touched me, he groped me, he spanked my sister".
After you've dealt with the issues, bring the personal attacks on, I can take'm. I have no insecurities about my health. Although I do question the mental health of an individual/individuals willing to spend days upon days defendeing some of the most well chronicled, self-important child molestors and abusers ever, while attacking survivors, while at the same time dealing with not a single one of the issues.
You can label me a schitzo all you like in the hopes it will detract from your inability to deal with any of the issues. That won't make me a schitzo any more than it will make the issues go away or hide the fact that you're spending a tremendous amount of energy defending the very top leadership of this group.
Hey, you can call me delusional all you want. I guess I'm imagining the Book of Davidito, I guess I'm imaginging nude dance videos of little girls the creation of which was ordred by Berg. I guess I'm imagining the transcripts which are available to the general public in a court of law as well as the findings of the Lord Justice Ward. I'm definitely imagining the Last State.
I guess I'm imagining that you believe sexual battery and sexual assault of minors is not "real" abuse, based on what you've written.
I guess I'm imagining that you have no response to any of the real issues.
I also see many issues in Anovagrrl's post you've completely ignored.
Being called crazy by you is an incredible compliment. Under no circumstances would I want to be sane in your world.
If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.
Attack me next month, tomorrow, or whenver, I'll be around and I don't have thin skin. In the meantime, deal with the issues.
You can't, can you? I didn't think so.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From tuneman7
Monday, November 28, 2005, 08:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Since you broadcast to the whole world that you think it's fine for an adult to sexually batter and assault minors, perhaps others are interested in hearing a retort that defends that position as opposed to the cowardly and intellectually bankrupt resort to personal attacks.
Also I've counted 4 individual posters who have asked about the findings of Lord Justice Ward. They deserve an answer too.
If you're going to call me schitzo and I take the time to retort in an organized manner that addresses the issue and doesn't slap some unwarranted label on you, I deserve a public answer, so do the others who have put questions to you, which you have not answered.
I've counted several people who have asked you about what it is that you think about the Last State, you've not answered on the issues, not even once.
You're quick to patronize and put down others and make statements like "be good", but you deal with none of the issues.
Also since you're so knowledgable about everything, it'd be interesting to get a "I have read and understand" statement out of you on the issue of Disassociative Disorter, which, by the way, is what my sister has, including PTSD and some other diagnosis. It is commonly mis-diagnosed as schitzophenia and is the direct result of severe physical, sexual and emotional abuse, false imprisonment, isolation and other trauma childhood, early adolescence etc. ...
I don't need an email or any sort of answer from you. I'm not confused about the issues nor do I need validation or to waste my time communicating with someone so devoid of any sense of decency demonstrated by the fact that he has taken the time to put in writing the opinion and post on the internet the opinion that sexually battering and sexually assaulting minors does not qualify as "real" abuse.
I also tend to try not to engage in email communications with people who call others schitzo because of their own inability to deal with the issues.
I do not need an address from you. If you wish to address the issues here, be my guest. If not, go and slither back under whatever rock you came out from under.
Deal with the issues. I've got no desire to be in communications with you.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Haunted
Friday, November 25, 2005, 18:32
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I told my story: it happened to me. I named names, I pressed charges and informed the FBI and many more, I went on national television....
I've also moved on, gotten therapy, have an education, a terrific job, a life, a home, a child, friends and much more.
It doesn't matter what you think about me: I'm a hero, I'm a survivor and I've done wonderfully for myself despite the handicaps I was saddled with.
Can you say the same?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From tuneman7
Friday, November 25, 2005, 21:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Good 4 you Haunted.
Forget the cult apologists who lack the guts to even post their own names.
Repeat after me:
Individuals don't press charges, Government agencies do.
Repeat after me:
When the perpetrators are nowhere to be found because they're living off in the jungles off of other people's tithes, they can't be arrested.
Repeat after me:
Berg had an arrest warrant out of him at the time of his death, current leadership was aiding and abetting a criminal/fugitive.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from mia1
Friday, November 25, 2005 - 13:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
HELLO!!!! sorry for the yelling but I couldn't help it you know how hate being ignored...anyways I was wondering who this rebecca is and if said person is real and six feet under then what the fuck is every one fighting about. I mean if this is a genuine preson of our generation who is dead why are we using this as a forum for our hate. Give it a rest already. Guys do the dead a favor and take it outside. Yes we all love a good debate but not when it's on the grave of a beloved! That said I just hope rebecca isn't one of my friends....]
M.
(reply to this comment)
| from Bones
Friday, November 25, 2005 - 13:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Arguing on a message board is like competing in the special olympics...... even if you win, you're still retarded. Many good points may be made, but in the end they become casualties of conflict. Some of you come across as antagonists, some as intelegent with (extremely rare) critical thinking skills. But the latter do not serve their purpose by engaging in a battle of wits against unarmed combatants.
(reply to this comment)
| from Thunder7
Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 18:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who is "us"? I want nothing to do with you all, as an ex-member. I have my own friends and family who will mourn me when I am gone.
And for fuck's sake, what % of the people on this site were abused? 1-15%? Not getting a secular education doesn't count, and washing dishes until 11pm doesn't count either. Most of us were raised in countries where none of that counts as abuse, so deal with it.
I'd say that most of us who left were not abused, we just weren't provided the opportunities and comforts that most kids get growing up. And yes, that sucked and can be considered very unfair of our parents, but that was their choice and their right. When we have kids we get to choose where they go to school and what religion to teach them, and they might hate us for it when they're older, but it's our right as parents.
"who will mourn us?" -- I sure fucking won't...unless you're my friend.
And before all you start getting knots and twists in your panties, THIS IS MY OPINION. I'M NOT SAYING MY OPINION IS THE ONLY RIGHT OPINION. ANY COMMENTS INSINUATING
(reply to this comment)
| From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 22:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
You said, "And for fuck's sake, what % of the people on this site were abused? 1-15%?"
Suppose it was only one person. Would you insist this person should "shut up" about their abuse? Would you deny that one person the right to see justice served? Would you call that one person a liar simply because no one else had similar stories?
The lack of empathy in your posts tells me you probably would.
You said, "Not getting a secular education doesn't count, and washing dishes until 11pm doesn't count either."
Last I checked, no one on this site was seeking justice for being made to do the dishes or for not getting a secular education.
They are seeking justice for being sexually and/or physically abused as a minor. They are seeking justice for being denied -- no, make that punished -- for seeking relatively higher education, let alone a secular education.
You said, "Most of us were raised in countries where none of that counts as abuse, so deal with it."
I'm not sure what planet you live on, but on planet Earth, there is not a single country without laws that deem an adult's sexual contact with an 8 year old boy a crime. There is no country in which a person can brutally beat an 11-year-old boy and be found "not guilty".
I dare you to find me one such country.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Wolf
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 20:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Interesting opinion. Do parents also have the right to send their children out on the streets to beg? Do they have the right to give their kids to other adults as sex toys?
I would like to know which countries you are referring to, because the countries I visited as a child (India, Hong Kong, Russia, Austria) do not give parents the right to deny their children a basic education. In fact, most parents in even the poorest third world countries are very eager to give their children the best education they can afford.
Lastly, I don’t think anybody on this site has complained about being required to wash dishes.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Thunder7
Friday, November 25, 2005, 08:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
and you are saying that you are one of the few that was used as a sex toy? then my comment doesn't apply to you.
do you know the laws regarding minimum education in those countries? can you read and write? do you know basic math? do you know who Gengis Khan is? apart from being a sex slave, i think you would NOT have a case in those countries (except Austria), and that includes begging.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Friday, November 25, 2005, 12:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Look, dude, I’m not “bitter” about my childhood, and I’m very happy with my life the way it is now. But don’t try to rewrite history. Every single peer that I grew up with (those who were my age or older than me), including myself, was used as a sex toy. For guys it was, well, acceptable. For girls, it was pretty traumatic. For awhile I just didn’t get that, and I was like, what’s the big fucking deal. Then I realized: hey – maybe a 12 year old girl feels slightly different about a thing getting stuck up her than a guy does about a little head. Every single girl that I know who was born during or before 1976 in the COG got diddled by an adult!
Whether you know it or not, India, Russia and Austria are signatories to the Geneva convention on the rights of a child. Let me point out a few excerpts of the convention that the COG disregarded during my childhood:
“Considering that the child should be fully prepared to live an individual life in society”
(They made a deliberate effort to make sure we were unprepared for society in the hopes that we would never leave the group)
“take all appropriate measures to ensure that the child is protected against all forms of discrimination or punishment on the basis of the status, activities, expressed opinions, or beliefs of the child's parents, legal guardians, or family members.”
(We were constantly punished for our opinions, and also for the opinions of our parents and family members)
"undertake to respect the right of the child to preserve his or her identity, including nationality, name and family relations as recognized by law without unlawful interference."
(I was ordered to change my name 3 times before I turned 18, and I was never called by my legal name.)
"ensure that a child shall not be separated from his or her parents against their will"
(Both myself and my peers were separated from our parents against our will)
"respect the right of the child who is separated from one or both parents to maintain personal relations and direct contact with both parents on a regular basis"
(I was not allowed to contact my mother from when I was 4 years old until I was 18 years old, because she was not a full-time member)
"The child shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child's choice."
(I was completely denied freedom of expression)
"States Parties recognize the rights of the child to freedom of association"
(I was not permitted to associate with individuals outside the group, except for the purpose of proselytizing)
"States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity"
(We did not have “equal opportunity” for education as compared with our peers in the countries we lived in – yes, that includes India, my friend)
"States Parties agree that the education of the child shall be directed to:
(a) The development of the child's personality, talents and mental and physical abilities to their fullest potential;
(b) The development of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and for the principles enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations;
(c) The development of respect for the child's parents, his or her own cultural identity, language and values, for the national values of the country in which the child is living, the country from which he or she may originate, and for civilizations different from his or her own;
(d) The preparation of the child for responsible life in a free society, in the spirit of understanding, peace, tolerance, equality of sexes, and friendship among all peoples, ethnic, national and religious groups and persons of indigenous origin;
(e) The development of respect for the natural environment."
(Our education taught us to hate the country from which I originated [the USA], taught us inequality of the sexes, and taught us intolerance for Jews and African-Americans.)
"States Parties recognize the right of the child to rest and leisure, to engage in play and recreational activities appropriate to the age of the child and to participate freely in cultural life and the arts."
(Apparently this was slightly misunderstood by our parents – our recreational activities were watching our mommy bang somebody else’s daddy and we were educated early in the “art” of conning people out of their money)
"States Parties recognize the right of the child to be protected from economic exploitation and from performing any work that is likely to be hazardous or to interfere with the child's education."
(Considering that my education stopped entirely at 13 years old, it’s pretty safe to say the work I was made to perform “interfered with my education”. It’s also safe to say that begging for your parents' living expenses is “economic exploitation”)
"undertake to protect the child from all forms of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse. For these purposes, States Parties shall in particular take all appropriate national, bilateral and multilateral measures to prevent:
(a) The inducement or coercion of a child to engage in any unlawful sexual activity;
(b) The exploitative use of children in prostitution or other unlawful sexual practices;
(c) The exploitative use of children in pornographic performances and materials."
(No comment needed)
"No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
(No comment needed)
"No child shall be deprived of his or her liberty unlawfully or arbitrarily."
(No comment needed)
Damn, that sordid group managed to deny children of pretty much every right in the book! But, like I said, I’m not bitter and I wouldn’t even care if it weren’t for brainless creatures like you who try to say we weren’t mistreated. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Thunder7
Friday, November 25, 2005, 15:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
i never said you or anyone else on this site wasn't abused. read first, then answer. abuses happened but they were not nearly as widespread as you say.
and after reading parts of the Geneva Convention I think your new mission in life should be to sue some countries...no, continents. you were fed, clothed, taught (not always secular teachings), spanked, and maybe fucked a few times. apart from the latter (which does not apply to most of us), you had a childhood, maybe not a good one, but you didn't grow up being drug around town by your pimp at odd hours of the night to fuck rich tourists at the age of 9, or work in a sweat shop 12-18 hours a day for a few bucks a month, and you weren't drafted into some militia at the age of 12 and forced to shoot your family. go sue them, and any genuine sexual predators you can positively identify. and you shouldn't put every ex-member born before '76 in your group of abused. you couldn't possibly speak for all of them.
calling me a "brainless creature" was a good one. made you sound real tough.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Friday, November 25, 2005, 22:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude, don’t put words in my mouth. I wrote:
“Every single peer that I grew up with” and “Every single girl that I know who was born during or before 1976 in the COG”
Get it? I’m not pretending to speak for everybody. I am speaking about (and only about) those who I grew up with and know personally. Call me a liar if you want, but every single one of them had sexual experiences with adults (some of them wanted it, but that’s beside the point). In the area where I grew up (mostly Europe), sexual abuse *was* that widespread. Whether it was in other countries or not, I don’t know.
How old are you dude? If you were born after 1978 you could not possibly comprehend what the people who were born into the COG in 1976 and earlier had to go through.
Why do other people’s wrongdoings make the COG’s wrongdoings OK? Believe it or not, I am working hard to right wrongs in a poor country that have nothing to do with the COG. And I am not “fighting the COG”, as some culties like to say, because I know the group has changed. But if I do ever have a chance to make Zerby & Kelly face justice, I will use it, even if it means spending all the money I own. If you can read the “Last State” and not realize what monsters they are, then I almost feel sorry for you.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From supporter
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 20:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
I believe in the normal world of "humans" parenting is a privilege not a right ,the only right you have is to do the best you can for your children with what you have. That is not to take away the best part of of our human lives (not saying there is an afterlife etc) "which is our childhood" just because you believe your children should suffer as you do, fuck you nut job.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Ne Oublie
Friday, November 25, 2005, 05:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yet you have not answered my question...
Parenthood is neither a right nor a privilege, it is a fact of life. The right to custody of one's child may be disputed, but I could never agree with a society which considered parenthood a privilege - primarily because of the obvious question that it raises: who then has the authority to afford that privilege? I do not support the totalitarian model followed to varying degrees by Nazi and Communist states, giving primary responsibility for the upbringing of children to the state, in my view this is a dangerous and slippery slope, and is contrary to the very basic principles of individual freedom in which I believe.
So, again I ask, what did you mean when you said that parenthood was a privilege and not a right? And further, what did you mean by the (seemingly contradictory) statement that parents had the right 'to do the best [they] can for [their] children with what [they] have.'(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from mia1
Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
hi, I've been out for a while...which rebecca is this?? I know a couple and the thought of any of them dead makes me sick... A little help here pls.
(reply to this comment)
| from Whats wrong with you?
Monday, November 21, 2005 - 16:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
To the people bickering on this thread,
Please go back and read what the OP wrote. Nobody wants to have the second to the last word, but is this realy the place? Way to piss on someones fond memories of a friend.
(reply to this comment)
| from tuneman7
Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 20:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Life Goes On -- Tupac Shakur
Chorus:
How many brothas fell victim to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my niggas
we tha last ones left
but life goes on.....
How many brothas fell victim to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my niggas
we tha last ones left
but life goes on....
As I bail through tha empty halls
breath stinkin'
in my draws
ring, ring, ring
quiet y'all
incoming call
plus this my homie from high school
he's getting by
It's time to burry
another brotha
nobody cry
life as a baller
alchol and booty calls
we usta do them as adolecents
do you recall ?
raised as G's
loc'ed out and blazed the weed
get on tha roof
let's get smoked out
and blaze with me
2' in tha morning
and we still high assed out
screamin' 'thug till I die'
before I passed out
but now that your gone
i'm in tha zone
thinkin'
'I don't wanna die all alone'
but now ya gone
and all I got left are stinkin' memories
I love them niggas to death
i'm drinkin' Hennessy
while tryin' ta make it last
I drink a 5th for that ass
when you pass...
cause life goes on
Chorus
How many brothas fell victim to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my niggas
we tha last ones left
but life goes on....
How many brothas fell victims to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my niggas
we tha last ones left
and life goes on....
Yeah nigga
I got tha word as hell
ya blew trial and tha judge gave you
25 with an L
time to prepare to do fair time
won't see parole
imagine life as a convict
that's getten' old
plus with tha drama
we're lookin out for your babies mama
taken risks, while keepin' cheap tricks from gettin on her...
life in tha hood...
is all good for nobody
remember gamin' on dumb hoties at chill parties
Me and you
No true a two
while schemeing on hits
and gettin tricks
that maybe we can slide into
but now you burried
rest nigga
cause I ain't worried
eyes bluried
sayin' goodbye at the cemetary
tho' memories fade
I got your name tated on my arm
so we both ball till' my dying days
before I say goodbye
Kato, we're meant to rest in peace
Thug till I die
Chorus
How many brothas fell victim to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my nigga
we tha last ones left
and life goes on....
How many brothas fell victim to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my niggas
we tha last ones left
cause life goes on....
Bury me smilin'
with G's in my pocket
have a party at my funeral
let every rapper rock it
let tha hoes that I usta know
from way before
kiss me from my head to my toe
give me a paper and a pen
so I can write about my life of sin
a couple bottles of Gin
incase I don't get in
tell all my people i'm a Ridah
nobody cries when we die
we outlaws
let me ride
until I get free
I live my life in tha fast lane
got police chasen me
to my niggas from old blocks
from old crews
niggas that guided me through
back in tha old school
pour out some liquor
have a toast for tha homies
see we both gotta die
but ya chose to go before me
and brothas miss ya while you're gone
you left your nigga on his own
how long we mourn
life goes on...
Chorus - repeats
How many brothas fell victim to tha streetz
Rest in peace young nigga
there's a Heaven for a 'G'
be a lie
If I told ya that I never thought of death
my niggas
we tha last ones left
but life goes on....
(sung overtop repeating chorus)
Life goes on homie
gone on, cause they passed away
Niggas doin' life
Niggas doin' 50 and 60 years and shit
I feel ya nigga, trust me
I feel ya
You know what I mean
last year
we poured out liquor for ya
this year nigga, life goes on
we're gonna clock now
get money
evade bitches
evade tricks
give players plenty space
and basicaly just represent for you baby
next time you see your niggas
your gonna be on top nigga
their gonna be like,
'Goddamn, them niggas came up'
that's right baby
life goes on....
and we up out this bitch
hey Kato, Mental
y'all niggas make sure it's popin' when we get up there
don't front.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Nancy
Friday, November 18, 2005 - 09:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I heard about her death, too. Yet, I can't place her. A friend told me I must have known her.
Even if I did not, I am still effected. I little piece of me dies when I hear about a new death.
Why do so many of us die young? Why? And who mourns us? Who will mourn us when the last of us are gone?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From lotstoforget
Tuesday, November 22, 2005, 15:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry Nancy, I know we’re not seeing eye to eye on this one, but I think you’re being somewhat melodramatic. In the post I’ve commented on you’re mourning for someone you don’t even know?? I just don’t think it’s very productive to dwell so much on the negative, when there are so many positive things happening with us and all around us. If you enjoy semantics, Ok, sorry for the “fucking pathetic”. Would “melodramatic” fit your taste better? Consider it done! "Who will mourn us when the last of us are gone?" Let's be real, look at it how you may; your tag still irks me. It's so unreal, it’s negative; it really makes people depressed rather than looking at life with expectancy and hope. I know to you this sounds “Family”, but it’s “poor me”, or rather, “poor us”! Maybe you don’t have any family to mourn you, because you’ve distanced yourself from your family? Again, I don’t know beans about you – but why do you feel so all alone?
Sorry, just my opinion – everyone has one, I know.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Tuesday, November 22, 2005, 20:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
lotstoforget, I speak only for myself, but I have some friendly advice for you that is presented in chronological order:
1) Stop replying on this thread (no thank you's, no apologies, no more typing...just walk away)
2) Create a new screen name
3) Don't use the "lotstoforget" screenname in the future...use the new one.
Some Netiquette tips for the future:
a) If you have a question about what something what someone wrote means, respectfully ask them.
b) Don't try lecture people about how they should feel and psycho-analyze their posts unless they ask you to.
c) There will always be diversity of opinion here. Try to state yours without attacking someone else's.
d) Responses to "count your blessings" type admonitions will generally be negative.
e) Don't ever make assumptions about people's relationships with their family and offer unsolicited advice.
f) Don't bother someone when they are mourning on a Eulogy article because it will make everyone dislike you.
P.S. Don't reply to this post.
Best wishes,
EML
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Nancy
Tuesday, November 22, 2005, 16:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
How about this? How about you f' off? Kay? Don't really care what you think or say. Just don't say it to me. M'kay?
Did I distance myself from my family? What? Who the hell are you? I'm negative for mourning when someone dies? Uh, maybe you should lay off the Pollyanna laced weed. Let's be real you say? Well, this is being real. This is me telling you to bite me. I make you depressed? Sounds to me like you manage that all on your own. In fact, you're infecting me.
Why do I feel so alone? Uh, I don't. I feel bothered by the buzzing of your drivel in my ear. How about this, you keep your cult-blathering opinion and everything else about you to yourself? Don't go away mad or "negative". Just go away. Take your zippity-do-da, Pollyanna peddling, cult-spouting opinions, write them out and kindly send them to my suggestions department over there in the trash bin.
I'm not productive you say? "There are so many positive things happening with us and all around us?" Oh, my God. Call out the parade. Sorry, folks, no feeling sad when someone dies young. No, negativity cause it's really "unreal" and "irks" lotstoforget. He's much too busy focusing on the "positive" and blowing sunshine up his ass to be bothered with it.
"Sorry, just my opinion..." Blah, blah, blatty, blah... Uh, not really interested in your "sorrys" or your "opinion" either. And now, I'm sure you'll whine about being harsh and uncalled for and NEGATIVE when you were just "expressing your opinion". Well, just go watch some Pollyanna and focus on all the good things in your little world and I'm sure you'll be over it in no time.
And Benz, I don't want to hear it about being too hard on poor little lotstoforget. As you said in your own words, "[he's] a big boy and can handle his own replies." And for the poster who's upset about bickering under a memorial post, I agree. I think these stupid "opinions" and blathering in response to my simple comment are just that, stupid and belong someplace else.(reply to this comment) |
| | From lotstoforget
Wednesday, November 23, 2005, 05:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
Boy, did I get under your skin, dear Nancy. You are certainly no stranger to hurling profanities and throwing mud, as I could notice in your posts. The hit dog (b...h) howls, I guess. I don't comment much here anyway, but your "Why do so many of us die young? Why? And who mourns us? Who will mourn us when the last of us are gone?" really made me feel quite nauseated. What a line! I watched you on TV recently and, quite frankly, you had the same tag there. I just can't relate, sorry. I said it, you answered, now let's stop here, OK? Farewell! (reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Wednesday, November 23, 2005, 13:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
You get under the skin of anyone interested in decent, respectful behavior and communication.
The hit (b..h) that howls?!!!
You feel nauseated? Not nearly as much as those who read what you have to say.
I agree with Nancy. F' the hell off! Go ahead and call me harsh or whatever. I don't give a rat's a__.
Have you put yourself at risk to advocate on behalf of truth on TV or in any other forum? No you haven't! When you're a quarter the man that Nancy is a woman, you can comment what she's done or the manner in which she's done it. If you think you can do it so much better, be my guest, put your face, name, career and personal life on the line, speak the truth, open yourself up to attack by the cult and others. Until then, shut the f' up, you cowardly denial-ridden ass-clown!
Have you had to bury a friend or sibling?
Have you had to visit a sibling in jail?
Have you had to check a sibling into the psychiatric ward of a hospital because of the life-long effects of severe, prolonged and systematic abuse of the most horrific sort?
Have you had to rush a friend to an emergency room to advert a suicide attempt?
Have you had to watch those you love and care about overdose on drugs because of the crimes committed against their innocence in childhood?
If you haven't, of course you can't relate. Who cares about whether you relate or not in the first place? Since when does anyone need to do anything to be relatable to you. Because someone isn't relatable, they're a (b..h)?!! Because someone isn't relatable, their comments are fucking pathetic?
Man, you drop right out of a Berg cookie-cutter mold. Anyone who wasn't relatable to or crossed him was, "demon possessed", "a backslider", "failing God", "insane" and what have you and he made sure to transmit it to the world. Very similar pattern to you.
Go back to reading your cult literature and singing "Let's Kiss Our Bitterness Bye-Bye" sandwiched by "Battle Hymn of the Revolution" and stop posting your nonsense in a funeral thread.
You started this nonsense by calling someone's comments "fucking pathetic". Now, since you have no high ground of any sort, you resort to calling someone a (b..h), and disparaging them personally?!!!
You make me sick, nauseated. Go off and find an audience who gives a damn about your opinion. Tip: Current cult leadership will welcome you with open arms. You're probably already their hero given your willingness to attack those who have given a tremendous amount at personal cost to advocate on behalf of truth.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 01:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
let's see, cowardly (1), denial-ridden (2), ass-clown (3), berg cookie-cutter mold (4), not to mention your all time favourites, butt-bonery (5) and, grade-A-ass-clownery (6) - and your crying about (b..h)?.....whatever
- See, it's not hard to make a smug little remark is it tuneyboy 7*
You list a lot of bad things that have happened in your life. Well guess what, a lot of the same stuff has happened to a lot of the rest of us. So do us all a favour and stop pretending you have some kind of monopoly on pain & suffering, ok???(reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 12:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Us all" can talk to me if they want to.
I must have been very bad to you in a former life or something.
The long list of things that I put out were addressed to lotstoforget, not you. And yes, Benz, not all of those things have only happened to me. That's why I brought them up to contrast this apologist nonsense and belittling of the suffering of others (not just mine) which lotstoforget is engaging in.
I was addressing the cult apologist/member lotstoforget. But I suppose you speak for him, rather than he for himself. Interesting.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 12:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
What does "us all" talking to you have to do with anything? Am I missing something? - Why would "us all" want to speak with you anyhow? Spokesman?
That's right, those long list of things were addressed to lotstoforget, not me. - But the principle is the same, that you excuse yourself for verbiage whilst criticising others. One set of rules for you, and another for people you disagree with.
It seems your hero complex has taken you to where you believe you have an all encompassing right-of-say, right-of-way, but sorry buckaroo it just ain't so.
Just because you, Alb, Nancy, & whoever else, appears on TV, does not make what you have to say on the subject more relevant than someone else. - and far from "speaking for lotstoforget", I am merely pointing that fact out. - But you in your filth, have to try and besmirch me as a TF sympathiser, merely because I disagree with you. - THAT is interesting! - You must paint whatever/ whoever does not go along with your own agenda as black vs your white.
Just a little piece of advice: Those who have left TF are on the whole far too intelligent to be taken by your attempts to dictate absolute truths. It is likely that those who do listen to you and those like you, are gullible, naive, & haven't yet developed their critical thinking skills (much like yourself!).(reply to this comment) |
| | From Funny
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 18:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
B:
So do us all a favour and stop pretending you have some kind of monopoly on pain & suffering, ok???
T:
"Us all" can talk to me if they want to.
B:
What does "us all" talking to you have to do with anything? Am I missing something? (sure are) . ...
Those who have left TF are on the whole far too intelligent to be taken by your attempts to dictate absolute truths.
--------
Perhaps so. ... but in this case, not intelligent enough to not remember their last post.
Who's calling who spokesperson. ...
--------
LTF:
I watched you on TV recently and, quite frankly, you had the same tag there.
T:
If you think you can do it so much better, be my guest, put your face, name, career and personal life on the line, speak the truth, open yourself up to attack by the cult and others.
B:
Just because you, Alb, Nancy, & whoever else, appears on TV, does not make what you have to say on the subject more relevant than someone else.
--------
What "subject"? The context here seems to be TV shows; one person criticizing another person's demeanor or presentation. The counter seems to be: If you can do it better. ... Do it better. Disparaging others does nothing.
I don't see the suggestion of one opinion having more relevance than another.
--------(reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 13:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
"So do us all a favour and stop pretending you have some kind of monopoly on pain & suffering, ok??" That's what's where "us all" came from.
I don't paint you as a TFI sympathizer as I do lotstoforget.
I agree that what I have to say is no more relavent than anyone else's.
Again, I must have been very bad to you in a former life or something.
If you read what I have to say you'll see that I agree with you on the notion of "absolute truths".
I also agree that peole who have left are intelligent etc. ...
"It is likely that those who do listen to you and those like you, are gullible, naive, & haven't yet developed their critical thinking skills (much like yourself!)."
I'm not sure what you mean by the "those like you", categorization.
Gullible, Naive and no critical thinking skills? I guess I should return my degree, grades, academic awards, professional association memberships etc. ...
Lots of my friends are very well credentialed, many much more so than I, they listen to me all the time. They don't always agree, but sometimes the do. But does their listening mean that they're gullible, naieve and lack critical thinking skills? (reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Friday, November 25, 2005, 00:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, I know were "us all" came from Tuney and "funny man", what I don't get is why "us all" would somehow be looking to talk to you.
- you said ""Us all" can talk to me if they want to" - so what does that have to do with my comment about "doing us all a favour"? - Do you think "doing us all a favour" means "us all" would like to talk to you? -Seems that you and funny man are missing something here lol.
And can you stop with the "past life" comment already, how many times do you have to repeat yourself? - unless you want to explain your thoughts on reincarnation I'm really not interested.
If you think you agree with me on absolute truths, try not saying so many things which seem to indicate otherwise.
I didn't realise we were comparing qualifications. - so when will you be finished your Masters?
BTW "those like you" refers to those who, like you, don't know that their condescending attitudes only thinly disguise their ignorance and desire for dominance.(reply to this comment) |
| | From literate
Friday, November 25, 2005, 17:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Could it be that Benz wrote "Give us all. ..." when he should have said "Give me a . ...".
I think the inference is let to "us all" speak for themselves, and stop trying to speak for them.
""Us all" can speak to me if they want to." Probably means if people want to speak to Tuneman7 they can. Otherwise Benz should speak only for himself.
Got it on the 1st read. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Friday, November 25, 2005, 20:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
No, I should have said "Do the whole WORLD a favour"....
& if I had said "the whole world" I still would not have been pretending to speak for the whole world... - talk about your pedantic pricks!
- "us all" was pure manner of speaking, "us all" as in us all WHOEVER!
What a joke yet again. The person who is assuming some kind of role of spokesperson superior is Tuneman7, plain & simple. - & yet both of you have to try and latch on to "us all", in an effort to turn this around on me. - Ha ha ha! - at least try to be subtle with your reverse logic tactics next time.
I'm not the one who pretends to speak for anyone. What I have said, I'll say again in order that such a dumb fucker like yourself may understand:
What Lotstoforget has to say is just as valid as what Tunerboy says.
Lotstoforget is obviously coming here with his own perspective.
I have no problem with Nancy defending herself or even friends coming to her defense, but on this occasion it was so obvious that Tuney was trying to play hero boy, lambasting Lotstoforget for simply having a different opinion.
It's obvious that not everyone who leaves TF agrees on what should be done (if anything) to stop or change TF. Peoples opinions also change with time & circumstance after leaving TF.
So lets just say Lotstoforget will actually see eye to eye with Tunerboy in a few years, does that make Lotstoforget wrong and Tunerboy right? - I don't pretend to have the answer to that, but what I do say is let Lotstoforget say things that are on his mind without overreacting to every little blurb or jibe that goes against what you think.
I'm asking for a little leeway & open-mindedness toward people who don't see things the same way the hardcore TF destroyers seem to. Remember, each person who grew up in TF has an equally valid story about the experience. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Literate
Friday, November 25, 2005, 21:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Looks like Tuneboy responded last. And actually used less harsh/absolute type language. Why not go after Vixen, or Haunted?
Note the context . ....
Here's the chronology .. ..
1st Response:
From vixen
Saturday, November 19, 2005, 16:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry but you are way out of line here! You've got absolutely no right to call Nancy out on what you perceive to be 'moaning and groaning'.
2nd Response:
From Nancy
Sunday, November 20, 2005, 16:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Who will mourn us when the last of us are gone?"
3rd Response:
From Haunted
Sunday, November 20, 2005, 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're the one who's pathetic!
4the Response:
From tuneman7
Sunday, November 20, 2005, 16:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is a thread dealing with the loss of a human life. Not an unknown human life either, but that of a friend.
WHAT ABSOLUTE TRUTH STATEMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE:
It is very inappropriate to disparage someone expressing their emotions in a heartfelt fashion.
WHAT A PERSONAL OPINION STATEMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE:
I view it as very inappropriate to disparage someone expressing their emotions in a heartfelt fashion.
=================
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Thunder7
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 18:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I am fighting a group of unrepentant child abusers."
I agree that child abusers should be punished. I don't agree with you fighting the group as a whole. In that "group" are members of my family who did not commit abuses, in that group are also my younger siblings. I praise your efforst to rid the world of child molesters, but for your sake I hope the results you seek do not negatively affect my family and friends still in the group. Be well.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Alb
Friday, November 25, 2005, 10:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm a hero damn you. Along with Tuneman7, Nancy and all the others who have appeared on TV.
Don't you get it? Having a luxury holiday house in Maui and crusading against TF are mutually exclusive. You will never be successful in this life or achieve exalted qualifications like me, Nancy and Tuneman have unless you go completely all out in trying to destroy TF once and for all - like us, except we'll always do it better than you.
And don't forget that any justice which ever comes out of TF is to be credited to us, as well as Jules who you owe homage to for setting up this site (sorry Jules, I know you don't feel this way, but we do).
be well and prosper(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From lotstoforget
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 00:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, I hope you get to your "unrepentant" child abusers. Listen, after all these many years I don't have much in common with TFI anymore - but this much I do know - you're looking in the wrong place! Start a neighbourhood watch or something. They're out there, Daniel, they're out there, them child abusers! They're everywhere! Go see a shrink, man! TFI maybe a bunch of screwballs and demon-catchers, but "unrepentant child abusers"? I'm afraid if you ever make your dream come true (seriously doubt it with that attitude) when I get to that Kauai beach house I won't be able to see you for all the tubes and drips surrounding you. Watch your liver, Daniel, any pains already?(reply to this comment) |
| | From More in common with them than you know
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 15:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
All your thinking seems to be very much in line with that of TFI.
All your defense/offense lines are the same as theirs.
"Go see a shrink, man!" The same as their suggestion that survivors are all 'unstable', etc. ..
Personal attacks on the credibility of survivors and those who speak up? Same as them.
Personal unrelated attacks on Daniel and others. -- Same as them.
People deal with issues. You deal with personal barbs. -- Same as them.
The world is full of abusers, why bother TFI. -- Same as them.
Stories are embelished. -- Same as them.
The list goes on. ...(reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 12:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
I guess Zerby who tied my sister to beds, while Berg molested her, ordered her beatings, sent her to Macau, and Peter Amsterdam, who raped her (had "dates" with my sister), beat her and molested other little pre-pubescent girls don't qualify as "unrepentant" child abusers.
I could also list all of the CROs one by one and give you a list of different one's victims, dates times and places. Hey, but to you they don't qualify as "unrepentant" child abusers.
They're at the top of the leadership pile taking tithes, covering for other abusers. They haven't made amends to their victims. But you already know this you cultie.
It's true that there are other child abusers in the world, I'm concerned with those who hurt me, my sister, my friends, and who lotstoforget, are very "unrepentant". Were they repentant lotstoforget, they would bring for "fruits meats of repentence." They'd offers services, homes, funds, etc., for those they abused, imprisoned, hurt and malingned in their childhood and teen years.
If they could set up and fund elaborate victor camps, why can't they set up services and housing for those whose lives they've ruined through their cruelty and horrific abuse. If they could deprive teenagers of education that they sought, why can't they use some of their tithes to help people with their education?
If they're not "unrepentant" why aren't the perpetrators handing themselves over to authorities, or the leadership handing themselves over to authorities.
They are "unrepentant" as are you.
Now go back to your cult handlers.(reply to this comment) |
| | From lotstoforget
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 14:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, Mr. Tuneman, you certainly have a penchant for the melodramatic, I must say. Listen, I’m just too old, have been around too long, to just take anyone’s accusations, hyperbole and conjectures at face value. Yours and other’s at this site included. Believe it or not, that’s what we have courts for. I’ve been called a homosexual, a liar and thief –when none of this was true. Somebody had an agenda, see? I’m not saying that what you say is not true, all I’m saying is, I’m not gonna believe it just because you make a statement to that effect. Got it?
I’m well acquainted with your sister’s story, so let’s just look at the statement you based pretty much all that followed on:
“I guess Zerby who tied my sister to beds, while Berg molested her, ordered her beatings, sent her to Macau, and Peter Amsterdam, who raped her (had "dates" with my sister), beat her and molested other little pre-pubescent girls don't qualify as "unrepentant" child abusers. I could also list all of the CROs one by one and give you a list of different one's victims, dates times and places..
That’s a tall number, Abner, and you are lumping a lot of hyperbole into one little sentence here. Waiting for your list of “all the CROs”, along with the specifics. I guess you must have been there and witnessed all that, right? See, that’s exactly where we’re gonna get stuck. You weren’t, weren’t you? You just believe that the story, is true. Maybe it is, however, maybe it isn’t. Maybe parts of it are, other’s are not – who’s to know? I guess you haven’t been to a lot of court cases in your life. Being about my age, a court house is probably not a place you hang out a lot. Ask Nancy, she is probably a little more knowledgeable here. She knows how a story can change under cross examination, when motives are laid bare, when semantics are swept under the table and when the true colors of everyone are coming out and when sudden twists are happening which no one expected. What’s happening on your recovery board here may be important to a lot of people, and rightly so in this context, but it has in real life no substance or bearing whatsoever.
Tell me, have you pressed charges already again the Smith’s (Queen Zerby and her King? You know their names, right? Personally I’m not aware that you have, correct me if I’m wrong. You should, Abner, by all means. Wanna know why? Because regurgitating this story here again and again, each time with more slant and embellishment is not gonna serve anybody and it’s not gonna serve the truth. It will just get more and more twisted as time goes by and it’ll get to the point where no serious judge is even going to pick this case up. You’ve done shot yourself in the foot. I mean anybody with sanity and a sound mind cruising by this website, reading these posts, must just roll their eyes and confuse a lot of folks here with a cult – or worse! This site is not a testimony to sanity or good sound judgment and if nobody has picked up your stories yet, it’s in a way kind of your own fault.
Here’s my suggestion to a lot of folks here that would like to see justice done. SUBSTANTIATE your claims, start pressing charges, even if you don’t know where these folks live, but stop howling abuse over every little thing that happened in your life. When I go through the “First hand accounts of abuse survivors” I can’t help but throw my hands up in despair. “He abused me because he told me when I was gonna turn 21 one he would make love to me…” (Sorry Jules, the one that came to mind right away. No offense, don’t take it personally)! For God’s sake, divide the real from the unreal here, sort out who REALLY got hurt, but stop sobbing over every adult who ever spanked your cranky little asses. I mean it; it doesn’t serve your case at all. Start a new poll, a new section or thread where you only accept those claims that have hand and foot and I, and others ex-members with a totally different set of experiences than what is portrait here, will start taking you a little bit more serious and would be willing to help and support you more. But to sort through these half baked, rather naïve and juvenile abuse accounts, 90% of which can’t and won’t ever be substantiated, is ridiculous and boring. Sorry, I know a few folks here will not like this angle. But I think Benz, Ne Oublie and a few others at least will agree that I have a right to voice my opinion here. For the record, I’m no cult apologist, I’m no cultie, I’m not a creepy “member” in disguise who wants to fuck with your heads, I don’t suck on King Peter’s privates. Sorry, none of that applies, but some here seem to believe in the “you’re either for me or against me” paradigm. Shed that and you’ll be a lot further. Only very insecure people do that, because everything contrary is a deadly threat to them, because they're standing on shaky ground. Hey, in a way, not so different then the cult, right?
Anyway, sorry, I don’t have more time, there is a lot more I would like to say. I don’t even mean, with one swift stroke of the pen, to discount or dismiss all the hurt and the anger a lot of people are feeling here. I’m just saying, stop playing, get serious or get out of this game and on with your lives before it gets tragic. Pull up your pants and stop this mass-hysteria here. Get serious or stop bickering. Those of you with stories that can be substantiated and somewhat corroborated step forward – run them by a professional lawyer, reject all others. Anyway, my five cents worth. Take it for what it’s worth to you. I’m afraid though, I will be called cultie again, apologist, etc. Suit yourselves. Not a sign of maturity. Be good.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Banshee
Friday, November 25, 2005, 07:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
What is interesting about this post is that you set yourself up as a paradigm of maturity, yet you are sitting there saying that you don't care about, don't want to hear about, and don't believe any "story" from anyone here unless it can be "run by a professional lawyer." Sorry, lotstoforget, but that is one of the most obnoxious, self-important and immature attitudes on this site right now.(reply to this comment) |
| | From megamouth
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 16:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
just read your profile dude, it seems you have "no time to be bitter" yet you have a lot of time to be a fucking asshole posting incessantly on this site.
you grew up "in the pit"(what???) and your contribution here is two reposts of myconcussion pieces about Daniel. You have the sensitivity and reasoning capabilities of a retard and yet you are a "Managing Director" pray tell us "Lots to forget" what you are a Managing Director of....by the sounds of it you couldn't manage or direct your cock into Queen Peters asshole or his little maggot into your fat mouth.
You are "well acquainted" with Mene's story, perhaps then you could enlighten us all as to what did occur, you prat.
Your knowledge of the judicial system and law enforcement is awe inspiring LTF as is your command of the English language, after you finish "Managing and Directing" you could probably get a job as a high court Judge with your profound insight into how cases are "picked up".
you sound like a moronic twat trying to get clarity on your own issues with no regard for anyone else, furthermore you sound like you could do with having your "cranky little ass" spanked real hard in a way that helped your mouth retain its most desirable position and your fingers recoil back from the keyboard.
You have a right to voice your opinions only because Jules took the time and energy to make the facility available to you and is fair enough not to treat you like the piece of shit you are. Remember that dickhead, your idiotic rants here are only made possible by her and otherwise you would be talking to yourself in the mirror in the bathroom of the corporation you are the “Managing Director” of…
I wish this site had an audio section so I could deliver this verbally and roar laughing after the words “Managing Director”! (reply to this comment) |
| | From lotstoforget
Friday, November 25, 2005, 02:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow! You really have perspective and deep insight, don't you? Not to speak of poise and charme. I guess your name says it all. You sure have a gifted way of writing and expressing yourself. I'll remember that when some academic wants to collect information for his research - I refer him to you, K? I must say I'm also deeply impressed by your sharp and crisp logic. Your academic crudentials probably speak for themselves? Well, and if you don't have them, you probably did well for yourself in the business world. Guys like you are just bound to be successful in whatever they do. I really admire you.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From tuneman7
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 14:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Individuals don't press charges, Government agencies do.
Heard of juristiction? Heard of statutes of limitations? Probably not.
One need not embellish to know the house of horrors run by current top leadership. Read the findings of the Lord Justice Ward if you won't take a lowly brother's word for it.
That was a court of law, civil, though, not criminal. I guess LJW is embelishing too.
Interesting, what you wrote me is almost exactly what Peter Amsterdam wrote back to me when I asked him to apologize to my sister for what he did to her, in 1996. It was the same line "you weren't there". Of course I wasn't there, I was off in Pakistan, without my parents, beating the streets asking the locals for donations in Urdu and suffering my own private hell. Everyone who was there of my generation has either backed up her story or is dead.
Also your taunt to "press charges" is exactly the same line that cult leadership has spewed out to their own members as well as the press.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From tuneman7
Friday, November 25, 2005, 11:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
Idiotic post. Doesn't even deserve an answer, but here goes.
A perpetrator imprisons (with sufficient supplies of food and water to last a lifetime) someone and then takes off. 30 years late the person breaks free.
The perpetrator is long gone.
The statutes of limitations have long since past.
So by your standards justice is served since the statutes past.
Is there any moral justice in that?
The other thing is that it's not over, when there is concealment especially in child abuse cases, the statues of limitations do not apply.
If TFI didn't engage in concealment with burning of books prepping witnesses, etc., you'd be hard pressed to find an example of true concealment.
As for your idea of "vigilante action", a pure cult ploy. One doesn't fight criminals (TFI leadership) by becoming a criminal.
There's plenty that can be done to lobby goverment agencies to change the laws, legislate temporary exceptions to certain statutes etc., INTERPOL, etc. ..
As for the idea that justice has been served because of some imperfection of the law. ... What nonsense.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From vixen
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 00:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
lotstoforget,
You seem to be so deeply entrenched in the family way of thinking that it would be funny if it weren't so tragic! Honestly, you think you've left it behind and that you're far removed from Fam patterns of thought and behaviour? I don't think so! Not if the way you come across here is a reliable indication of your psychological state.
As they say, 'you can take the boy out of the cult...'
I pity you. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 02:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
What disturbs me most by discussions such as this one is the very thin skin of civility and tolerance of differing opinions that is evidenced by so many on this site. Particularly when one considers the frequent use of angry language by almost all (granted, often humorously), it appears rather hypocritical to take such serious offence when on the receiving end.
Added to that are the repeated protestations of 'I don't care what you have to say (if you don't agree with me)', which are belied by the angry tone used to say so. Perhaps it's part of the cult's imapct on our lives, that we are so insecure as to require sycophantic agreement with our every word and such low tolerance of dissent.(reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Thursday, November 24, 2005, 02:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
I see your point, but I do think that a lot of 'us' (by which I mean those of us who tend to come down on the people who voice those minority opinions) are reacting to the way in which things are said rather than the specific sentiments expressed. Also, I agree that it sometimes seems as if people are quite intolerant of differing opinion, but you have to consider the fact that these are very emotive issues and people will take it personally at times.
I actually don't really care what anyone else says here, when it comes right down to it, because I know that at the end of the day, this is only a message board and I'm damn well not going to stew for hours over something an anonymous person that I'll never have to meet is saying. What I do care strongly about, however, is when people put others down while combining it with familyesque talk and patronising lectures, not to mention outright dismissals of the experiences that others have had, and the effects of those experiences. It pisses me off big-time, and if I'm pissed off I have a perfect right to call it like I see it. Whether or not you feel that my stance is hypocritical is your business, and you are of course entitled to your own opinion on that.
I will stand by my peers who have suffered and are struggling to come to terms with it far more readily than I'll side with some smug newbie who is deluded enough to think he's better than others simply because he has chosen not to deal with his past. And if you tell me that I'm making assumptions, then let me just say, yes perhaps I am, but the way one conducts oneself online will inevitably give an impression of one's character and thought processes, and if people don't like that then they should quit posting.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From GoldenMic
Wednesday, November 23, 2005, 11:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Pretty damn sharp, for sure!
Anyway, why not add a little unsolicited commentary from the resident outsider here?
I am trying to figure out how and why Nancy and Albatross have somehow been positioned as bitter curmudgeons who have no life, knowing that you are both extremely lively and intelligent people, with many people admiring you and valuing your friendship. Nancy, I hope you've noted that the dominant response here to your comments has been positive and supportive, and I think that any person of good will realizes that you were simply expressing some small piece of the isolation and pain we all feel from time to time, the result of being rejected, judged, and condemned by the cult of our past, and hurting for its effect upon yet another peer. The sad truth is, lotstoforget's invective is just presenting another aspect of that same shadow hanging over our lives, and it hurts to hear his pain, too. Surely, this is a hard time of the year to engage with each other, yet another holiday season to underline the bitterness of haunted memories and families that failed us. I guess the sharp and often clever jibes we throw around are proof that we are still here, still trying, and not totally alone.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, November 27, 2005, 21:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps you don't realize how much power our peers who are still in the Family have to bring the perpetrators of our abuse to justice and validation to our histories.
Imagine that every second generation member in the Family began holding Zerby and Kelly accountable for their past actions. Imagine that they demand that Berg and all of his writings that condoned the abuse of children, racism, and severe corporal punishment be publically and officially denounced. Imagine that they demanded that any person who had or promoted sexual contact with children be turned over to the authorities or be made to undergo therapy.
Now imagine that they realized that their peers and former friends who have left the Family are dying and they, because of their "us vs. them" mentality, cannot bring themselves to shed a tear for them.
Do you honestly think it would do "little good"?
Tell me I'm dreaming. Go on, tell me.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From tuneman7
Sunday, November 20, 2005, 16:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is a thread dealing with the loss of a human life. Not an unknown human life either, but that of a friend.
Show some respect. Try to have some class. Try to have some manners. Try to have some dignity. Try to show some capacity for understanding and communication. Don't call a fellow mourner "fucking pathetic". That's completely uncalled for. Go elsewhere to project your anger and other intellectually, emotionally and socially bankrupt nonsense mongering foolishness.
If anyone's acting pathetic, you are. Good luck establishing any sort of meaningful relationships or friendships given your lack of respect and apparent complete lack of capacity for understanding the emotions and expressions of others, matched only by your inability to communicate appropriately.
I kind of "get" what you're alluding to in terms of wanting to project images of success to siblings and peers still in the group. But anger, sadness, and loss are honest emotions. Those emotions deserve respect when expressed well.
I view it as very inappropriate to disparage someone expressing their emotions in a heartfelt fashion. Once again, this is a thread mourning the loss of a human life. It's not expected to be a happy happy type forum.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Monday, November 21, 2005, 04:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I view it as very inappropriate to disparage someone expressing their emotions in a heartfelt fashion."
I'm sorry Abner, but "heartfelt" was quite possibly the case coming from this poster whether you agreed with the sentiment or not. - We all come at things from different angles, and the converging lines seem to indicate conflict when if we stop for a second we may find the person is actually trying to say something thoughtful.
Who are you to say whether something is heartfelt or not?
My opinion of your coments in general is that you seem to judge everything based on a measuring tape of your own individual morals which you hold as "more appropriate" than everyone elses.
While I personally can't find any fault with what Nancy said, I like the fact that someone can have an opposing view, and can express it without being denigrated for doing so.
I also think Nancy is a big enough girl to handle her own replies. The poster took a particular stance to Nancy's comment & the very fact that you state they may have an "inability to communicate appropriately" would indicate to me a streak of cruelty on your part.
Do you hit someone in the face because they're blind & can't see where they're going? If you actually think someone has an inability then why the harsh words? Are you trying to place yourself above them? Is that your point?(reply to this comment) |
| | From tuneman7
Monday, November 21, 2005, 13:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I certainly do have respect for my own morals. If I didn't, I wouldn't have them. That being said, I'm open to learning from others provided that they can articulate their positions respectfully and in manner that enables me to learn something. I saw nothing posted by Nancy's disparager, which articulated anything in a constructive fashion.
I did identify a potential concern he had about wanting to project success to those still in the group that he cared about.
That being said, I tend not to have very much tolerance for disrespectful behavior. Why would I want to be open to disrespectful behavior and communications? Life is too short. I was subjected and had to see others subjected to disrespectful behavior for far too many years of my life.
Forgive me if my comments are harsh, I know they can be at times. However, I call things how I see them and I call a spade a spade in my own life, I don't hold that what works for me is absolute. I can only express how other people's actions or words are experienced by me. People who care tend to try to not to engage in actions or words that will be experienced as disrespectful by me. People who don't care, well, the world is full of them, I just try to avoid them. At the end of the day, I wasn't the one who called a mourner's comment "fucking pathetic".
What I meant by appropriate behavior or communications had to do with attacking a poster, any poster, for benign comments in what's essentially a funeral thread.
I'm willing to engage you further in discussions about my own harshness and inadequacies, etc. ... But not on this thread. I'm definitely not perfect. I guess I need to go back and read "Prayer for Love and Mercy", as well as send out a prayer request for my "self-righteousness".
But, I'd rather not do it under an eulogy for a fallen peer.
In fact, I'd like to suggest that we open up a separate/new article for Rebecca, where people can post their emotions related to her passing, without getting into a heated exchange about stuff completely unrelated to her life and death.
I didn't know Rebecca, but I think she deserves at least that much respect in death. I don't thinks she deserves this petty bickering, which I'm certainly party to.
P.S. You're welcome to address me as tuneman7 or Don. The "Bible Name" "Abner" was given to me when I was an 11 year-old orphan within the group by my leaders who were eager to conceal my identity. Please don't use it in referring to me, I experience it's use today in addressing me as very disrespectful.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Nancy
Monday, November 21, 2005, 12:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
So, lotstoforget can disparage my comment, but tuneman7 cannot have an opposing view to lotstoforget's disparagement? Lotstoforget should not be denigrated for expressing his disparaging opinion about me, but tuneman7 can be denigrated for disagreeing with lotstoforget? I can handle my own replies, but you can come to the aid of lotstoforget? So, tuneman7 can express his agreement or disagreement as long as it doesn't concern something I wrote, but you are free to express whatever opinion you have regardless of who it concerns? So, lotstoforget can denigrate me and be disparaging with swearing and smears and misinterpretations of a comment I made which doesn't even concern him, but tuneman7 cannot respond even if he doesn't use swearing or smears? Tuneman7's opinion that lotstoforget was inappropriate was indicative of a cruel streak on his part, but the use of the phrase "fucking pathetic" aimed at my comment by lotstoforget was just expressing his opposing view? Tuneman7 uses "harsh words" and thinks he's above people, but lotstoforget was just expressing his opinion? "Is that your point?"(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Monday, November 21, 2005, 13:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Nancy,
It is not that I agreed with what lotstoforget said. I didn't and don't.
Abner has stated his view that lotstoforget has a communication disability and then goes about with thrashing insults. - That's not called for!
There once was an idiot on this site who once said "chill or be chilled". - I suggest that man serve himself a dose of his own medicine.
Lotstoforget seems to think that your comment written in pain and despair somehow will have a negative effect on SG's in TF, making them afraid to leave for fear of what might happen to them.
Is it possible that some SG's who are affected by TF fantasy guilt trips and scaremongering may feel less sure of leaving TF after hearing of deaths and tradgedies? - I'm sure it will to a degree. However I agree Nancy that it is irresponsible to ignore the reality of tradgedy merely so you can paint an attractive picture of the "world".
Considering TF are the coldest when it comes to acknowledging death and tradgedy, I find it a welcome relief when someone on this site expresses sadness and despair like you did Nancy. - I just think in this situation lotstoforget has had a reaction to a part of your remark and needs your understanding rather than your retribution.
From what I see, I think lotstoforget admires you and that is why he/she expects something more from you. Of course I may be wrong, this is pure conjecture on my part, but I also know that many times I have reacted like lotstoforget & sometimes the olive branch was the better cure.
cheers(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Monday, November 21, 2005, 15:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
I certainly have not responded to lotstoforget in "retribution." I have simply defended my comment and responded to his attack.
The bottom line is this. I am no one's hero. I don't speak for anyone else but me when I address issues as emotional as someone's death. I don't write for any third parties' benefit. I say what I mean and, I intend only what I actually say. I am not going to psychoanalyze how something I say may be misconstrued by 10 different audiences, including perfect strangers who happen to be in a cult. If someone misunderstands me and mistakes my intention, that is not my responsibility or problem, especially when I am speaking about something which doesn't even concern them or isn't directed at them.
And yes, I do have a heart. Contrary to what local culties may have you believe, I am really not a blood-dripping demon. I am just a woman, and it hurts when I see our peers in pain, suffering or dead. It hurts, and I'm certainly not going to play the part of a mindless, soulless, robot who doesn't care and doesn't feel just because a cult stands ready and willing to misconstrue and twist everything I may say or do. I will not allow them to manipulate me like that.
Yes, a lot of us have died. Yes, it hurts. Yes, it is agonizing. Yes, it is tragic. Yes, it is a waste. Yes, many of us live with the daily fear that we may soon lose someone else close to us. Is it because in leaving the cult God dooms us? Uh, no. It is because the injury of what the cult did to us lives with us long after we leave. Do I cry at night because God is punishing me? No. I cry at night because the scars still ache, the pain is still there, nothing and no one can undo it. The cult may spin whatever tales they imagine, but the proof of what they did to us, a whole generation, can never be undone. It sits with me as I type this. It walks with me to my car at the end of the day, and it will go to sleep with me tonight. And, unfortunately, it will stand with me in the future when we bury another one of our family or friends who lost their battle with the same pain.
Because you see, by leaving we do not damn ourselves in God's book, we simply finally see the injuries and trauma inflicted upon us that we could not see while we were brainwashed by the cult. It is not consortium with "bitter ex-members" that makes us finally realize the extent of what was committed against us. It is our ownselves when our minds are finally free to think for themselves and to take inventory of the extent of the abuse, deprivation and neglect we suffered. Then in piecing our lives back together, we sometimes become overwhelmed and self-medicate or give up.
The cult cannot have it both ways. They cannot claim responsibility for our successes, while disclaiming accountability for our injuries, especially those which prove fatal. Besides, the cult does not exist in a vacuum. It exists and is purpetuated through its members and individuals who peddle its doctrines, even those who do so unknowingly. The cult plays on our fears. It controls and manipulates through fear. Even if the cult's vehicle is a former victim or member, by pomulgating its fear tactics, it continues to control us. I won't be its puppet regardless. I'm not going to censor my comments based on the possibility a cultie might misconstrue them. A cultie's job is to twist and misconstrue the truth. A cultie gets brownie points, gold stars and pats on the head for informing their puppetmasters the elaborate ways they concoct to disavow and avoid the truth of reality which confronts them. If I began to play that game, I'd be schizophrenic before the day was out. So, no. I will not be editing my comments for the benefit of anyone who thinks I'm "fucking pathetic" because I don't consider those still engaged in the farming industry or whatever they're calling cult business these days.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Haunted
Sunday, November 20, 2005, 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're the one who's pathetic! This part of the site is to remember and grieve those who we've lost, go rant on "getting real: speak your peace" and let those of us who mourn do so....
Rebecca's family left the cult years ago and so she has what few of us will: a family to mourn her, but for most of us, all we have is each other. Did you see Ricky's parents at his funeral? For many of us, the only ones who care are the people who are on this site, our peers.
This site has many uses, yes, one part is to wake the public up to the reality that was our lives, but there are other sections too - places to joke, post poetry and make fun of the things we can still laugh about....
Some of us have nothing to be ashamed of and don't give a crap who "listens in"....
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Sunday, November 20, 2005, 16:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Who will mourn us when the last of us are gone?" was a question intended to highlight the fact that many of us only have each other. I have noticed at funerals that there are a lot of friends which take the place of family. We are family to each other, and sadly we are the ones who hurt when someone dies.
As far as what you're saying, I really cannot follow a word of it. I don't really understand how you get from my comment to your ranting, swearing and foot stomping. Maybe that's a good thing that I don't get you.
"Grave responsibility toward those still 'in'"?! I am no more responsible for what happened to my friends and siblings, much less me, at the hands of that cult than the man in the moon. So, I certainly have no responsibility for those still being manipulated.
Oh, hold on. I get it. You use terms and phrases like "testimonies," "Family members" (not of the blood relation extract), "strengthen them in their convictions," "carry a grave responsibility," "bitter," "moaning and groaning," "waking people up to realities" and "no regrets." You even use the infamous exclamation point. Uh, all you're lacking is the conclusory "Ha!"
Either English isn't your first language or cult is still your primary language. I also note your strange obsession with Daniel Roselle. Do you also think Jules and I are running a conspiracy to prevent criminal action? Do the dead speak to you? How about putting down the FSM, stepping away from the GN, logging off of mycon.com and every thing will be okay. Take a deep breath, don't think about imaginary characters and don't write anymore manifestos about those who are strangers to you and their responsibilites to culties, farmers or the undead.
And for the sake of the God of which you prattle, stop writing for the purpose of those "who are listening in." Just a bit more detox and those voices emanating from the radiator will stop and you'll be relieved to find no one is "listening in" on you. (reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Saturday, November 19, 2005, 16:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry but you are way out of line here! You've got absolutely no right to call Nancy out on what you perceive to be 'moaning and groaning'. Who the hell died and made you judge of what people should or should not feel, say or do, in dealing with their past? Hmmm? I notice you say in your user profile that you are forging ahead without time for bitterness (yes, that word that TF loves to throw up every two minutes, as if that label discounts anything anyone says) and that you feel that life is too short to dwell in the past too much. Well, more power to you! But maybe, just maybe, you've dealt with the difficult issues of your upbringing by ignoring them. If that works for you, well, great. But don't go giving other people attitude just because they've chosen another path.
Also, you may have your own idea of what this site is for, and let me say that I agree with you to a degree in that it would be good if current family members would be able to gain the conviction to leave the cult through reading what is written here, but that is not the primary goal of this site. This site was set up as a forum for ex young people of the cult to be able to communicate with their peers in a place where everyone can relate, not as an 'unrecruitment site' for current members.
Furthermore, the fact is that people will leave the cult when and if they become strong enough psychologically to do that, and as much as I'd like to think that we can all 'open their eyes' somehow through this medium, it just isn't so. Those who decide to leave after visiting this site will have already been on the way to doing so.
Maybe you haven't yet lost close ex-fam friends to suicide so perhaps you can't possibly relate to what Nancy and others could be feeling at the death of yet another loved one, and perhaps you can be forgiven for making such crass and insensitive remarks. But I think you need to stop a minute and ponder the fact that for some of those people who have died, their ex-fam and 'outsider' friends have been the only ones who truly mourned them. They deserve to be mourned, and if you can't find it in your heart to have little more respect, then you're far more detached from your past, and your own suffering, than you think.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Saturday, November 19, 2005, 16:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
ADMIN: Yikes, I may have been rather crass and insensitive myself in my choice of wording in the second sentence of the first paragraph in my comment above. Could you edit out the offending phrase whilst preserving the main thrust of the sentence, please? - I'm sure you'll be able to spot what I'm talking about, so I won't repeat it here...
Thanks :-)
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Nancy
Saturday, November 19, 2005, 11:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't know where you got that, but you got it wrong. That could not be misinterpreted from what I wrote. Go read the articles I've written regarding our friends and siblings that have died. You'll find that you could not be more off base in your assumption.
I know why so many of us die. I was asking the question to bring attention to it. It is certainly not God's judgment. It is often the pain and abuse inflicted upon us that many times becomes too much to bear. It is also a thousand different things which come back to haunt us. And sometimes, it is just tragedy and accident, but that is rare. "We carry on our backs the burden time always reveals. In the lonely light of morning. In the wound that would not heal.." What ever it is that seems to take so many of our friends and siblings, it is certainly not God!
Anyone who tells you that is lying. Anyone who says I said that, implied that, insinuated that, whatever, is also lying , on drugs, in a cult or all three.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Saturday, November 19, 2005, 11:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
And another thing, I don't really care about those who have a "plow" or a "key" or an imaginary friend. My heart goes out to those friends and I have lost. Nothing I've ever written on the subject was intended to make culties do anything regarding their plows or farming in general.
I don't write for cult audiences. I leave the cult audience writing up to those who care and do it best, cult leaders. Besides, I'm not sure I could put together a comment, much less an entire argument which would even be understood by culties, as I don't speak zombie anymore.(reply to this comment) |
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