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Getting Real : Speak your peace
Ricky's Memorial | from Thunder7 - Monday, April 25, 2005
accessed 2998 times I submitted a poll on this but I also wanted to know what you all thought. How many excusable reasons did Ricky have for making the choices he did that led to his and Angela's demise? The abuse he suffered in no way excused what he did. There are thousands of adults who suffered horrible abuse growing up and moved on with their lives or sought revenge through legal means. Not only is it possible it seems to be the norm. Sure there are scars, and you might not be entirely "normal", but who is anyways.
Watching the video he made I thought of a spoiled child not getting what he wants right away so he throws a fit. If one of your parents or loved ones hurt or abused me and years later I showed up at the doorstep to slice their throat and blow my brains out I don't think you would set up a fund for my widow and make a big deal to the media about my memorial. No, I would be some wack job psycho killer who murdered someone. Ricky didn't do any of us a favor by killing Angela Smith. I understand why some of you used the opportunity to shine the light on TF's dark past and spark a few investigations. It was good timing for obvious reasons.
Ricky just couldn't get things to go his way and he had a fascination with destruction, weapons, violence, and death. He got his wish but he left more than just his family grieving. How many of you have expressed your condolences and sympathies to the relatives of Ms. Smith? How many of you attended her memorial? Yes she had done horrible things to her killer as a child but did that excuse the way she died? Which crime was worse, his or hers? Sexual abuse or murder? And I know most of you will say that you don't excuse what he did but you understand why he did it. But by showering his life and death with all this attention and sympathy you sound like you don't really care that he sliced someone's throat open and watched her slowly and painfully bleed out, that after already having stabbed her a few times.
Before ending this I 'd like offer my condolences to the families of both victims. My you find comfort and peace. |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from figaro
Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 22:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
I would just like to point out a few things.
You asked what one was worse, the sexual abuse, or the killing of the one that committed that abuse.
As was already pointed out, he killed her once, she abused him many times.
When he killed her, I'm fairly certain that he could have been diagnosed with a number of mental health problems that he could not cope with and he may have seen this as his only way out. On the other hand when she abused him, she did it purely for the purpose of doing it. She was not driven to it by any sort of mental anguish, she was not suffering from any sort of PTSD, her mind had not been twisted by years of being abused.
Here in Texas were I live, the punishment for even a second conviction of sexual abuse of a child can bring you the death penalty. If he had gone about it by legal means and won, (which he would have if our legal system here wasn't so fucked up) then she would been put to death. So what would have been the difference In him killing her and him bringing her to legal justice? They both would have ended up in her death.
Yes, he killed her. But through years of abuse she not only killed his soul, but she drove him to it. What he did was a direct consequence of her own actions. Had she not abused him, he wouldn't have killed her, plain and simple.
I'm just simply pointing out some facts. My personal opinion (That is to say I'm not preaching it or trying to convince you to agree with me), is that what she did was far worse then what he did. He had been pushed to the point of legal insanity, she was not. His mind was twisted by years of abuse, her mind was just twisted.
(reply to this comment)
| | | |  From figaro
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 14:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
It sounds like a good idea, and just about everyone thinks that it is. What they are failing to see is that it is, in fact, a very BAD idea!
If a second conviction brings the death penalty then the person committing the crime is going to be more apt to kill the kid so that they couldn't point him/her out in a line up. They are going to get the death penalty if caught either way, so they might as well kill the kid and lower the chances of them being identified by the victim.
Child molesters are sick, twisted, mentally ill people that are going to rape/molest kids regardless of the legal penalty's. So now instead of just raping the kid, their going to rape and kill him/her. (reply to this comment) |
| | from shins
Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Just to say aswell while im on the subject- Ricky maybe didn't have any feelings left after his life of misery- so, yes, a terrible thing happened when he killed her but it has happened, and no amount of being so self righteous is gonna change it. Done some a favor and some not- hey- free speech I guess?. He got release from it and maybe she did too- answerable to the one above at the end of the day.
My views and Im entitled to them.
(reply to this comment)
| from shins
Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thunder7- way to go-NOT!!. How dare you say this?. Ricky was obviously tortured and unable to cope with his past- some people are weaker than others- you stand there on your pedastal and imagine life is fab eh?- maybe not enough happened. Personally- no one has a right to take someone elses life- however who are you to be judge and jury? (even though the judges and jury here and now aren't any better).
You should try and be a little more considerate- I wouldn't want my son having his foreskin lubricated at 3 years old......and some!.
Take a chill pill and consider others with a true though heavy heart. Some people are strong yet others are weak- nature of the beast- get used to it.
Im not an x member or anything- just an ordinary person who is understanding.
Get a life- speaking ill of the dead won't help you any!. Its life now that matters- what Ricky done was his way of dealing with it. We can't help him now unfortunately.
(reply to this comment)
| From WTF
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 06:06
 (Agree/Disagree?)
We? Who the fuck is "we"? Are you part of we? We what? we "ordinary persons" that magically "understand" people without sharing any experiences or knowledge, then express that understanding by lambasting the people that share a sliver of ricky's experiences? We who? Fuck you! Don't you fucking presume to know a goddamn thing about ricky or any of us for that matter. You are entitled to your presumtuous arrogant high-horse horse-shit opinion. We are entitled to not listen. "You should try and be a little more considerate" thanks a fucking lot auntie shins. You "understand" by watching observing. Not by "correcting". Keep your oral feces to yourself and kindly fuck off this site.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Samuel
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 07:04
 (Agree/Disagree?)
In retrospect to my earlier comment, I do see that Peer Support wants to help. Now what the hell is so wrong with that? You're an arrogant, egostistical, mouthbreathing bastard who needs to get off his high horse. You're entilted not to listen, but you didn't take that route. You opted to listen instead and go into a flying rage when you didn't like what you read. Who gives a damn? No one cares about your opinion, so you might as well keep your flithy ignorant comments to yourself! Now fuck off!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 06:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Excuse me for having an opinion- might have known this would be the feedback I would receive!. If you are so friggin interested in getting into a society and making friends- let me tell you- thats no way to go about it. If you don't want people to read about your experiences and care- then whatever!. My back is sore stooping to your level of the english language. You don't bloody know who I am or what Ive been through- so instead of using the word Fuck, like you seem to enjoy, I will say goodbye and best of luck with your life (you will need it with that attitude). Don't bother responding- Im gone. Thanks for the advice though.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 06:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
What comment?- seems to be you took offence at me b4 being in a chat room!?. Whatever- get a life-im an outsider- if you want to live your life without meeting new people and trusting people- then maybe you shouldn't be here yourself. I got the impression that integrating into society means meeting new people?.????????
Forget it then, Im no longer intrerested in this, you would put anyone off!
Good luck though with your lives.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 07:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps in all your 'reading up about us' what you missed is the fact that this is not our forum for meeting or learning to trust new people. This is OUR space, where we can interact with our peers. Yes, it is publicly accessible, and we are all cognisant of that fact, but ultimately it is our site, and anyone else who participates here is doing so on our terms. If you don't like it, there's the whole World Wide Web for you to browse.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 06:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hi Nick- think we spoke before. At least you had the decency to read and possibly understand where I was coming from. I have spent a long time reading up on this and Rickys experiences- I was actually understanding his point of view,, so I thought I would comment.
With reagrds to the other comments, Im offended and have decided to quit this site as I am not getting any satisfaction being told to fuck off continually (not a word I like to use but no offence to those who want to use it).
Thanks anyway- was an experience I will think of often.
Good luck to all.x(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 07:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
The sad thing is that you could have built up to this level of familiarity with us through this site, but you instead chose to start slagging off our peers - yes, OUR peers, not YOURS - within a matter of days of having joined. And then, you have the GALL to say that you're the one who's offended?
Why don't you try this on for size, someone comes into your house, and within a matter of days starts slagging off your family and friends, how are you going to react? I would venture that a quick escort to the door would be your likely response - as would any self-respecting individual. However, if that person were to build a meaningful rapport with you, and actually became a friend over time, then your reaction would be different.
Well, that's exactly what you've done here - it's not what you've said, and even not necessarily how you've said it, it's your timing that is totally inappropriate.(reply to this comment) |
| | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 10:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
As for OUR peers, Not YOUR peers- stop giving people titles as if they are better- like their opinion is more worthy than others- EVERYBODYS opinion is worthy. Including MINE. I certainly won't be told by some random person what I can and can't say or when I can say it.
Thought I would clarify that before i leave.
I genuinely had concerns and an interest, which you have killed- your attitude is bad, I have realistic people to chat with, I don't need this from you- like I said before- you don't know me, but all comments welcome- its a free world.
Good luck.(reply to this comment) |
| | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 09:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
in the real world pal- thats how we interact. Having said that- I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. So, I will go browse the big world wide web and see if I can find others to chat with- since thats what will make u happy. Certainly didn't want any of this attention. I didn't realise I had to watch what I said or that I had to put a time frame on it- maybe you should advertise that fact- you need to make friends for a period of time before you are allowed to give an opinion- that isn't what I have been about in life. People here come and go in my house and we say things that are necessary or give our point of view- which incidentally we are all entitled to do.
I do realise what this website is for- which is why I have decided to quit, understandably.
So, very sorry for introducing myself and having real concerns- you know, feelings. I do hope you all get on well with life, genuinely.
Just keep in mind that someday, if we meet (unlikely), but if we do- remind me not to make you feel welcome.
Good luck.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 10:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Incidentally- I am not "Critisizing the host"- I am merely stating my thoughts on his article. I don't know the host to critisize, so that makes no sense at all.
I honestly do not have the time nor the interest to go through this crap with you. I didn't realise you would "attack" me- I am better off chatting to the outsiders then!!. I haven't done anything on you- nor have I said anything which I don't believe to be true.
Put an advert on this site to stop nice people like me from giving a point of view!
Ciao!!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 11:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps you missed the first line of the homepage of this site, which says "Welcome to Moving On -- The website created by and for young adults with parents who joined the religious organization The Family / Children of God."
As you so frequently pointed out, you are an outsider. That doesn't mean that you can't be accepted as a member of our community, like GoldenMic for example, but it's going to take more than a few comments over a week to do so.
The thing that outsiders often don't realise is that in the majority of cases we actually know personally - or know someone who does - the person behind each of the profiles. They're not just anonymous identities as you would find on many discussion boards, and that is why we can be as frank and have the exchanges we do on this site. That's why we notice when an 'outsider' starts commenting, and why we will rally together in a way that you won't find on the average forum.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From GoldenMic
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 11:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Shins, I have been posting here for a number of years, an SG, but not an ex-TFer. A few times, I got a bit of "bush-back" for directly attacking people here, and I did initially wonder at a site where evryone could gouge and rend each other, but where I got my butt chewed off for much milder criticisms. However, it seemed to me that a bit of empathy was important, and it seems a fair request that a group of particularly and uniquely savaged and abused persons might wish to have a specialized setting where they can relax and be among peers, and where they have every right to resist being marginalized, lectured to, or badgered by the un-informed. I recommend you respect the importance and rightness of that setting, and not disrupt it. Instead, if you listen closely and refrain from impolite judgements, I think you might really come to understand and admire what occurs here. I believe you will find yourself increasingly welcomed by many (admittedly, not by all) so long as you interact without attacking those who have spent far too many years having to accept judgement and criticism from evil "superiors" who exerted power without reason or decency, and who exploited those they should have nurtured and loved. The people here simply will not abide such treatment now that they are free to react.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From GoldenMic
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 15:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, maybe no kissing so soon, I am a shy boy! Seriously though, coming from my position as an outsider, it wouldn't do for ME to get all rude towards other outsiders, which would contradict my own advise. I imagine that one way for me to be unwelcome here would be if I started speaking for TF SGA's and telling others to go blow. Also, I am trying to work on my communication skills in a very sincere attempt to act and become a more gentle and less reactionary person, so I probably over-do the nice thing, but I hope I was not coming off as condescending or insincere because I did really mean what I was saying. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Friday, September 07, 2007, 02:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
GM, I meant what I said to shins in that I don't think that being an 'outsider' is necessarily a permanent state. Obviously there will always be certain shared experiences that can never be 'gained', but I would say that you are someone who has in my opinion crossed the threshold from 'outsider' in - of course a similar background didn't hurt either.
But all that aside, there is a major distinction between an 'outsider' who criticises 'one of us', and them doing the same to another 'outsider'. Like with any group of friends, it is that sense of mutual protection for one of your own from external attacks that causes you to lay aside internal differences. But once one is inside, that 'common defence' mechanism is less significant.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From vix
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 10:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have stayed out of this so far but since you are posting more and more when you had in fact said that you were leaving, I assume that you are waiting for someone to acknowledge your bleatings of unfair treatment, before you go. So I feel I must say something now, if only to keep you from going on so.
I understand that you are in part responding in kind, in respect of the tone of your comments, and I do think that one or two individuals could have been more polite in their comments to you. But that said, I agree with the main gist of what others here have already said to you. I don't think you meant any offense with your original comments but now you are just being exceedingly rude and you certainly are misusing your position here as a guest of this community. Your attitude is haughty and antagonistic, you continue to insult us by making this an issue of 'outsiders' vs. 'insiders', speaking to us as if you are superior and have a clearer understanding of the 'real world' than any of us. This is is simply incorrect and I won't stand for it. Many of us have been living our own lives outside of the cult for many years now. We know how things work, and we are perfectly capable of normal interaction with people from all kinds of backgrounds whether or not they are similar to our own. Kindly stop presuming that you can tell us how things are done in the 'real world'. We don't need help. We don't, either, need to be told by someone who doesn't know us, how to behave in a space that is ours to utilise as we so wish.
For someone who came here with all sorts of platitudes about how much you care and so on, you sure turned nasty very quickly when you weren't greeted with abject gratitude. What were you expecting, a hero's welcome?? Sorry, but it takes more than a few empty (however well-intentioned) words to earn my respect, and so far you have not done a good job of endearing yourself to me.
Finally, i realise that the members of this site are often forceful in their opinions and quite acerbic in challenging others. It's part of our shared heritage that we highly value our freedom to speak our minds. Some people who come here can handle it, others can't. If you are offended and don't want to hear it, by all means be on your way. However if you want to stick around, I suggest you approach any issues discussed (including this one) with more respect for our space and our right to it, and then we will see if you truly have anything of value to contribute.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From shins
Thursday, September 06, 2007, 14:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
yawn- I have heard this already- only not as long winded.
This is exactly what I was talking about. You can, by all means discuss this with me- without the sarcasm and the hypocritical tones- for example-I insult you all by going on about outsiders v insiders and speaking to you like I am superior- this is garbage and I won't stand for it myself! thank you!- In my mind, you are the one trying to be superior by your tone and words and as I said before, the reason why I am quitting this site(which I know you are pleased about) is because of people like you. Do you think that because you were in a cult or abused that you have the right to be superior/better/more intelligent/ deserve respect from all you come across???- how dare you assume that(just like you said I make presumptions about the fact I know more of the outside world than you), besides, how do you know I don't?- how do I know you do?.... We all have our problems- Im not sure of yours- YOU certainly do not know mine.
A good term I like to use is : "Friendly"- something that is used in everyday life in Ireland- thats how I was brought up- to accept everyone the way they are- warts and all..... I don't care about all the ins and outs of it all- I just wanted to chat and be a friend- I sure as hell have not- and will not- turn nasty!- if that is your idea of nasty- then you haven't lived!. You are being antagonistic to me- making me retalliate with all this nonesense, in fact, I can't do this anymore. See?- one minute Im chatting to people- the next I am fighting with them. Not something I want or need in my life.
Having said that, I do understand what you are saying and I know you need your space. I will leave you to it- wishing you all the best of luck.
I am posting more so I can get to know those who aren't worth speaking to- I have no interest in this battle of words. As I said before, I have spent a long time gathering knowledge and speaking to people about their experiences- and that is why I came onto this site.
I certainly did not expect a hero's welcome- but a little welcome would have been nice.....
Obviously, I will not feel the need to say anymore now, I think I have said all I want to say- so have you by the sounds of it.
I do apologise if I have offended anyone though- I certainly had no idea I was doing so.
God bless and take care.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from exister
Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 14:38
 (Agree/Disagree?)
One of the things I love about this site is the way some cult babies loudly proclaim the obvious and then act like they should be recognized for having an original thought.
I am so happy for you that you are able to filter this event through some tired moral construct. Good for you! Yawn.
Next time save your uninformed ponderances for your fellow homeless people, I'm sure they will find it much more interesting.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Jerseygirl
Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
I just want to take five minutes out of my day to say that Ricky's memorial was a very amazing event that took a lot of time and effort. I was not at all involved with any of the planning but you dont have to be a genious to realise that it took some serious effort on the part of people who were GRIEVING! I wonder how many realise that when a person is grieving its hard enough just to get out of bed much less plan a huge event and then get trashed for a few minor complaints. Grow the fuck up people!
I was there and so were a lot of people I know and we all have nothing but good things to say about all those involved. It's so fucking pathetic to keep going over all this over and over again.
Sara (and everyone else) thank you for trying your best to get us all together and show Ricky and all our other deceased friends that we will never forget them--EVER. And while I'm at it I will just throw in that allowing there to be a bar during the ceremony was a stroke of genious! Its the little considerations like that which made it clear that you were all considering every aspect on how to make it a wonderful and enjoyable time with the least amount of discomfort.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from cheeks
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 18:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think you miss the point by a mile. We are grieving the loss of Ricky, and we are grieving for the way out he took. We grieve for the children we once were and the loss of innocence of our childhood his and ours. We are reminded of our pain when we so clearly see his. How can we forget Sue? She was part of his past she helped make him what he was. Do I feel compassion for her death? Sure I do, but I feel no more compassion for her than I do for him.
You asked what was worse murder or child molestation. My reply you can only kill someone once. You can molest them over and over. Ricky only killed once,she molested him over and over. She made her decision and Ricky made His. So be it.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 17:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am still trying to come to grips with what Ricky did. I am also trying to come to grips with what happened to Ricky growing up and the unfathomable pain it obviously left him with. And with the variations on the Davidito Book brand of childcare that trickled down to my own childhood in Family Homes, scarring my life. I have wracking grief over my childhood and that of my siblings and friends.
Coming to terms has been an ongoing effort for me, for years now. I have spent a lot of time, thought, effort and money (which is not plentiful when you come from where I do) in therapy. I went to the memorial in the hope that being there with others who know what it was really like would help me in this effort to understand whatever can be understood, and to find peace in the face of what is incomprehensible. Application of The Family's child raising methods of
the 70s, 80s and early 90s resulted in sexual, emotional and physical abuse and neglect to myself, my siblings and friends that we are paying for daily and dearly. Except those of us that are no longer alive. I went there to grieve my losses, our losses. They claim "the apostates are exaggerating, the abuse was not widespread and there have only been ten suicides." But their statistic is our world.
I would have thought that after this Zerby, Kelly and Borowik would get it. To suffer as a child the combination of long-term sexual abuse, subjugation of the entire person and then lies about both, added to the perpetrator's pretense of saintliness, can evidently have toxic effects. In this instance the cocktail turned explosive.
What Ricky did was wrong. The sexual abuse, subjugation and lies that enraged him to that point were also wrong. The perpetrators' refusal to acknowledge that those acts were not sweetness and light and were more than trivial can be madenning. But Zerby, Peter and other perpetrators continue not only display a lack of contrition, but also to blame their victims while acting like they are literally God's gift to a world full of lesser beings. Tragically, the unwillingness of The Family as an institution to acknowledge the error of its ways seems unchanged given the latest declarations by The Family's spokesperson. We learn that Claire Borowik, who has abused multiple Family children, wants an apology!
The Family would like people to believe that there was not such a big problem with the way "Davidito" was raised, that it's merely that "Ricky just couldn't get things to go his way" so he inexplicably committed an
act of violence in response to a childhood and youth filled with sweetness and light.
Cosmicblip mentioned the far more plausible concept of "equal and opposite reaction." For some of us the "equal and opposite reaction" has simply been testifying to authorities and speaking to the media. This was a big deal to do because of how unthinkable we'd been taught it was.
What response did survivors who have done that received from The Family as an institution? Villification, condemnation and blatant, lying denial. It seems Ricky had seen that happen before to Merry and others and lost hope for legitimate vindication. In an attempt to legitimize their actions, the Family's leadership still continues to portray the legitimate action of bearing witness before authorities and media as illegitimate and as a grave offense (witness The Family spokespersons latest declarations) while minimizing the nature and effects of the child abuse perpetrated in accordance with Berg and Zerby's ethos.
Yet last month, Ricky's friends and their friends gathered peaceably in the face of this injustice to support each other, to remember, to grieve and to hope. Those of us who still have any hope left can consider ourselves fortunate.
Reading Ricky's correspondence on the memorial website I could feel the frustration of my childhood all over again. Those who held all-encompassing power over me and abused it would not hear. The fact that they had committed on me acts that are vehemently condemned by society did not improve their hearing. Not only would they not listen, but they continued to loudly proclaim their God-given authority, and when I left to cut me off from contact with my beloved siblings over whom they insisted on holding sway.
Maybe Ricky misguidedly thought he would get Zerby and Kelly to listen. The world is more willing to listen! You seem to feel that "everything surrounding [the memorial for Ricky] was a big media campaign." In my opinion, the circumstances of Ricky's life and death
are such that sentient people could not help but take notice. If Peter and Maria and Claire would just listen, I doubt anybody would feel the need for the world to hear.
In my case and that of my childhood companions, I was merely another throwaway kid and The Family could afford to write me off when I would take it no longer. It seems that Zerby would not abide Ricky's refusal to live his life after her plans for him, since he was supposed to be the ultimate "good sample" (a "political commodity," in Ricky's words). It seems that if he would not bend to her will, she and Peter
at least had to have his silence. Their loss of Ricky, and people knowing of his reasons meant great losses to the empire. The "defection" of Ricky, together with the surfacing of his observations and opinions regarding Peter and Maria could lose them numerous followers and they let him know it. It was obviously much more threatening that losing one follower who had never lived with them, as usually was the case when some member's kid left.
When I was a child, I was allowed no questioning. The child that was Ricky was up against people calling themselves God's very prophet and queen in person, and a carefully selected handful of their most loyal sycophants who did not let him out of their sights. I cannot presume to know what it was like to be in Ricky's skin. Life has handed me what feels like more than my share of adversity yet I am stunned by life's cruelty to him. If he had "a fascination with destruction, weapons, violence, and death," I doubt he was born with it. Right, maybe it's Maybelline?
You see Ricky as "a spoiled child not getting what he wants right away so he throws a fit." You might want to find out more about what his life was really like before concluding, and I don't mean by checking out the Life With Grandpa series.
I attended the memorial in the hope that there will be no more Rickys, starting with no more childhoods like his and no more lies. I do not pray; my attendance was as close as I can bring myself to a prayer. It would be a step in the right direction if The Family's leadership would acknowledge the extent of the damage and take actions to remedy it.
When will people learn the disastrous effects of trying to smother another's will with your own? This mother's day I will pause to think of the mother that abandoned me in favor of Ricky's mother, and to
acknowledge how sorrowful I am for Ricky that he had the mother he did.
Finally, have you ever heard the expression, which even Christians have espoused, "love the sinner but not the sin"? Or "there, but for the grace of God, go I"?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | from Zed
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 15:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thunder7 is a bit harsh with his opinion but I think he has a point if you look at it from a non-exer side. We all can easily identify with Ricky because in one way or another we've been through something similar, or at least had similar feelings of rage and hatred. But to those who haven't been through it see it all very differently.
(reply to this comment)
| From Banshee
Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 16:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not sure if I'm reading this comment right, but if I am, I understood that you are trying to say that, a non-exer, having not experienced life in an abusive cult, and the feelings of rage and frustration that come with that, would more harshly judge Ricky's actions as unjustifiable. I have wondered if that is true. Having been raised in an ultra-morally-conservative extremist Christian environment, I actually think that many of us have been quicker to negatively judge Ricky's actions than the general public. Just take a look at the media coverage. Because the public opinion is its bread and butter, the media does its best to keep tabs on the pulse of the public, and the fact that the greatest interest and outcry by the media was of the crimes that Ricky and ex-SGs experienced says something. Although you may say that it's the sensationalism that focused there, murder is pretty "sensational" as well. Even on that Law and Order episode that they showed on this incident, the surviving "Ricky" character was merely hand-slapped with a manslaughter charge. I imagine that a prime-time show such as that would be sure that its judicial reenactments would follow general public opinion. Please understand that I am not saying I think what Ricky did was right--I abhor violence on every level. But I also have wondered, if Ricky had not taken his own life and had been charged with the crime, what a panel of jurors would have ruled on his actions.(reply to this comment) |
| | From analysis of variance
Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 06:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
You make an interesting observation about hand slaps for manslaughter. I am skepitcal about the Law & Order fictionalization of justice for homicidal abuse survivors. At one point, the Ricky character talks about facing the death penalty for murder, and the prosecutor says "This is New York, not Texas." My initial reaction to that line was: No, this is Hollywood. If Ricky had lived, I believe he would have faced the much harsher, "personal responsibility" sentiments of citizens in Arizona, a red state that allows 16-year-olds to receive the death penalty. To some extent, the public sentiment to which the Law & Order episode may have been playing involves a broad movement to abolish the death penalty in this country. That movement includes conservative evangelicals as well as liberal humanists.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From conan
Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 15:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mike,
You and I have had our differences of opinion regarding your posting here, and while I have no personal objections to your participation and contribution to our site and its threads, the above comment is strikes me as the epitome of asininity as you are yourself not an ex-member.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, but, “Hmmm, that's interesting; Why in the heck would I give a shit about a non-exer's perspective?” was essentially my reaction to your article, if you remember correctly, when you and several other site regulars chided me on my rash reaction to your presence.
Again, I have respect for you and your point of view on our site, but comments like the one above you must understand that they will not be easily digested by me, and I’m sure others. I don’t want you to ‘fuck off’ or anything closely related, but try and keep things in context.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From conan
Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 15:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mike,
You and I have had our differences of opinion regarding your posting here, and while I have no personal objections to your participation and contribution to our site and its threads, the above comment is strikes me as the epitome of asininity as you are yourself not an ex-member.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, but, “Hmmm, that's interesting; Why in the heck would I give a shit about a non-exer's perspective?” was essentially my reaction to your article, if you remember correctly, when you and several other site regulars chided me on my rash reaction to your presence.
Again, I have respect for you and your point of view on our site, but comments like the one above you must understand that they will not be easily digested by me, and I’m sure others. I don’t want you to ‘fuck off’ or anything closely related, but try and keep things in contact.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From GoldenMic
Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 11:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry to tire you so, and I certainly respect your right to get all territorial and defensive on your own website. Frankly, I do have an exIsot website, and they are actually more defensive about outsiders than you. Of course, to those who ask me to fuck off, I can only remind you that its part of my being a cult survivor to almost NEVER yield to verbal initmidation techniques. That said, I admit I am getting a little bit tired myself at defending my need to interact with other cult survivors. You probably can't even see the lingering effects of your own cult's superiority complex when you so casually brush off somebody who is reaching out for companionship in a world where almost nobody else understands what its like to have been raised in a cult. You join a website of somebody else's creation, and after a year here, you feel empowered to start telling others to go away from your special place. Frankly, I am glad you feel the sense of ownership, and I guess there should be SOME bright side to being from a huge cult, having a huge exCult community. I admit that I envy you that. Maybe I will back off for awhile. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From GoldenMic
Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 19:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, its certainly a reaction to my own cult past, but I NEVER give weight to the opinions and advise of anonymous contributers. Since I am only being critiqued because I have been honest enough to clearly idenitfy myself and my profile, I am certainly not going to be guided by the comments of some unknown entity. Nothing personal there, I just don't respond well to anyone who takes pot shots from hiding or from the coat-tails of another, an approach that is remarkably similar to tactics used by the cult you find so disgusting. Gothsmack, I appreciated you taking the time to clarify your own thinking, and I will certainly try to be less patronizing in any future comments. Frankly, I experienced the Memorial service at a very personal level, and I'm sure my reaction was more proprietary than I actually have a right to feel. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From frmrjoyish
Thursday, April 28, 2005, 04:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Everyone has a right to feel how they feel. Your feelings regardng Ricky's death are no less valid just because you grew up in different isolated sub-culture. You may not have experienced exactly what we did but you sure understand what we are going through a hell of a lot better than any other "outsider" would. It's perfectly natural for you to gravitate towards us since we all experienced backgrounds unlike the majority of people.
I haven't commented too much on Ricky's death but it has had profound effects on my family. After years of defending and longing to be back in TF, my Dad has finally began to question the way he brought up his children. In the weeks following Ricky's death he asked, "did you kids feel the same way? were you guys in pain like he was? did I hurt you guys by raising you in TF?" Never in a million years did I think he would entertain such questions. I assumed he would've bought the cult's spin on this tragedy hook line and sinker as usual.
This proves how powerfull the events of late are. It's so sad that it had to take a murder-suicide for him to begin to face the reality of what has been going on with his children for the last 10+ years but at least it's a start.
Anyway, all this to say that Ricky's death has different affects on different people. It's not for any of us to say what one has a right to feel regarding this horrible tragedy. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Gothsmack
Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 14:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. For the record, I have no right or interest to regulate your interaction with cult survivors. By all means, please continue to do so. My only issue with you, is as I said patronising us on our site. While I may have disagreed with Thunder7s perception on the situation, I believe as a former member of the cult involved he has a right on this website to state his opinions. You have never met him, and by defining him as "insensitive" without sufficient knowledge of his past or character, you in my opinion no longer "interact", but rather "patronise.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from GoldenMic
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow, Thunder, you seem to be a very insensitive person. Had you attended the event, you might understand the callow nature of your comment expressing sympathy to both families, since your words towards Ricky's loved-one's were very judgemental and smug. NOBODY involved even suggested that Ricky's actions were right or appropriate, and the suggestion this was primarily a media event simply shows that you were not there, and that you are in complete ignorance of the loving, grieving tone of the event. This was not about justifying or comparing, it was about the horrible sadness and evil of cults and TF, and how a group of people mourn the loss of one of their own. I cringe when I imagine Rick's closer friends and family accidentally seeing these words. Memorials are for the survivors, and these survivors deserve respect and care, not pithy little judgements from some outsider who didn't even bother to show up.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Phoenixkidd
Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 17:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Why are you even on this site? You have better things to do elsewhere than comment and abase our stance towards the cult that we were raised in! The chances of anybody, academic or not, fully grasping the complete isolation and sub-culture that existed in our cult while we were growing up, and the isolation towards society that some of us feel is very slim! Although I do not condone Ricky's actions to take out his frustrations on a member of the cult, still I like many others feel sorry for Ricky, here was a child that was raised in extreme isolation and religious bigotry and an upmost seclusive environment, that when he finally did leave, and at a late age than other isolationist groups, Menonities, Ammish etc...he went completely biserck after realizing he would never quite fit in. God only knows how many times I and many others have felt like taking a gun to my head to blast away our pitiful existence. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from melzar
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thunder7,
I know this is an open forum, and I understand your likely need to accentuate that what Ricky chose to do is not seen as right and good, etc. On the other hand, I find your article and comments highly judgemental and insensitive. With the media concentrating on what they will, how dare you criticise his friends and wife for doing what any family and friends would do--remember him for who he was. I mean Angela's family and friends remembered her even though she commited sex offenses.
I've waited to let my blood cool to at least a simmer before responding and in doing so, have only gained more information about who you are to be making such statements as following:
"...and he had a fascination with destruction, weapons, violence, and death."
You said you didn't know Ricky. So, since when do you have the right to assume this? What are you basing your information on? A one hour video and his last acts? Since you clearly are not in a position to criticize someone you don't even know regarding circumstances you are probably not fully aware of, please graciously back down from casting your judgements.
(reply to this comment)
| from Cosmicblip
Monday, April 25, 2005 - 22:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Part of the reason I went to Ricky's memorial and not Angela's (not that I had the option) is that, as far as victims go, I identified with Ricky, NOT Angela. Angela was an adult when she joined the cult. She had previous experience in a world where the things that she did to Ricky were, at the very least, frowned upon. She chose to give up all of herself--her body, mind, soul, future--to a pretty much random cult run by a pathetic old man.
Ricky was a child born into that cult, as we all were. He made no choice to suffer that crap. And after suffering it he had to live with it for 28 or so years--pretty much his entire life.
Now, the suffering that Ricky put Angela through (and I do not condone it), I will assume, took a couple hours. The suffering that she (and others) put Ricky through lasted for every minute that was his life. And there was no way to live it down. He would always remember it. We would always know about it. A book about it would always exist. He would never be free from it no matter what.
I identified with him because there was a time in my life that I thought if I met some of my abusers I would not be able to control myself. There would have been no telling what I would have done had I come face-to-face with them--and I had it nowhere near as bad as Ricky, or some of the others here. I'm not in that place anymore.
People who joined the cult, who took advantage of children and others, who indulged their own perversions, or took on Berg's perversions, can't even be considered selfish. They gave up everything that makes one a person that there was no self left. Yes, the cult considers this nirvana. But, in the concrete world where we must be responsible for our actions, where all equal and opposite reactions are our fault, our responsibility, being selfless, having no self, no will, no soul--by choice--is not a good enough defense.
Again, she offended a little one and it was better for her that a millstone was hung about her neck and she was cast into the sea. Better. Not required. And, if she, and the other people in the cult, being the Bible scholars that they like to think they are, knew this they should have been willing to receive the recompense of their error which was mete.
And let me state again that I do not condone unprovoked violence; that I don't think the cult needed a martyr--and we most certainly didn't either. But Ricky would not have done what he did had he not felt he had other viable options (but I could be wrong). The one difference is that he knew what he did was wrong and was willing to suffer the consequence. And yes, before you argue that he should have suffered the legal consequences, how about an eye for an eye? Ricky performed a criminal act in the last few hours of his life. Angela was a criminal and could live with it for most of hers.
(reply to this comment)
| from Banshee
Monday, April 25, 2005 - 18:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
Much has been expressed on this website regarding the actions of Ricky that night. Many of us have, in one way or another, expressed our feelings on it, or tossed around thoughts on why he did what he felt needed to be done, and why he felt it needed to be done. There were numerous news articles and shows, also posted on here, and also addressing this issue. Obviously you either:
a) Have not read them/watched them. Please do; it will save us all from much repetitive posting. (And there is CERTAINLY a lot of that going on lately!)
b) Have read them, don't agree with them, and have therefore posted this article. The problem is, you posed this as a question, and if the case is that you have read all the articles and links and comments, and don't agree with them, then there is nothing anyone can say that will make you think otherwise. Conclusion: just make your statement and don't bother with the pretense of questions.
On the subject of murder, and who committed the greater crime: It's a funny thing, the moral high ground, and a very shifty, pot-hole-ridden place. Even God Himself (if you swing that way) can't seem to get a clear message out, and he seems to have a very low standard by which murder becomes justifiable. Check it out:
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Ralph Crayon
Monday, April 25, 2005 - 17:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
the abuse of a little child, a defenceless little child, the termination of that innocence and beauty is so much worse than murder.
I have often thought about Angela's parents since she died and thought how terrible it is for them. They lost their child to the cult then they lost her again, how tragic for them the day she met "the Children of God".
(reply to this comment)
| from
Monday, April 25, 2005 - 17:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Which crime was worse, his or hers? Sexual abuse or murder?"
Angela Smith (aka Sue, aka Krauten) committed a crime against an innocent child! I'm no judge but in my book, that IS a worse crime.
(reply to this comment)
| from sarafina
Monday, April 25, 2005 - 17:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Did YOU go to the memorial? Did you even watch the footage? Here. http://www.tellthetruthpeter.com/videofootage.html IF you had you would have seen that it was not as you say.
First off he had many friends, many of us knew him and loved him and had known him and lived with him at one time or another. I see no reason why his wife and his friends should not have been able to have a proper memorial. Yes, he did take a life which was not his to take, however what about the 28 other years of his life that he was a good friend or good husband? Does he not deserve a funeral for who he was for the last 28 yrs and not based on who he was for one night? Actually Elixcia just wanted a small little memorial but so many people were writing and wanting to attend she didn’t want to be selfish and say no, yet at the same time we couldn’t afford to pay for a place big enough to hold that many people. Which is why we asked for help.
I think most of us had made it very clear how we feel about taking this type of revenge, you can read this in the letter I posted and that many people signed.
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=4&Cat=24&ID=2488
The Memorial was not “used as an opportunity to shine the light on TF's dark past “It was kept very positive and we tried to steer the conversations and focus toward Ricky and others (who we may have had a proper memorial for) not about the family, which I think was done for the most part. As for attending Angela’s memorial well, for one I never met her and didn’t know her personally, which is why I didn’t. Not to mention I doubt I would have been welcomed for obvious reasons, two the option was never made available it was kept very private and only disclosed after the fact.
(reply to this comment)
| From Thunder7
Monday, April 25, 2005, 20:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Had I been able to go to the memorial I would've opted not to. I didn't know him personally, I wasn't his friend, and I don't know his family. I did watch the video and while everything said and done during the memorial was positive and focused on his life everything surrounding it was a big media campaign. I'm not saying you were involved, but some of the people at the memorial were.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Jesus Christ
Monday, April 25, 2005 - 16:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone be placed around his neck, and he were cast into the depths of the sea.
(reply to this comment)
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