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from Emitt Friday, July 04, 2008 - 15:05 (Agree/Disagree?)  Hey kids  hows it goin Its emitt kuns here  anybody that knows me out there     love to here from ya (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Monday, July 07, 2008, 00:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi Emmett, Mike Martella here. Good to hear ya. You could go to the IsotAlumni site to hear the trickle of conversation currently happening among ex-Isots, or to the Sam Fife yahoo site.(reply to this comment)

From nofantasyman Saturday, August 09, 2008, 22:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Martella.  Contact me.  I've made some video shots from the Strawberry Fesival where your darling child performed with Riders In The Sky.  You know how jjj(reply to this comment)

from conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 15:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok Mike, here is my contribution to your topic. It’s fairly hostile towards the FGAs and as such would like to warn all readers of such. This article reflects only my opinion, and I’m entitled to one as much as anyone else. If you don’t like it people, you can kiss my ass! Mike, As I personally have no knowledge of your former cult, my personal opinions would be completely superfluous to you and your band of fellow ‘survivors’. I can tell you my honest feelings regarding generational-bonding as per my own experiences and influences from my experiences as a fellow cult escapee. I have nothing against former FG members and in fact am very happy that they had the courage to leave their lifestyle at a later time in their lives. I do not, however, find their presence on our particular website welcome. There are several reasons for this and I will try to lay them out as clearly and concisely as I can. First and most importantly is the fact that FGAs were not born into the bondage the rest of us suffered through. Come to think of it, this is really the only reason. There are so many sides to this one topic though, that I’ll delve into them a little bit and just rant for a few minutes. They (FGAs) made a conscience and concerted effort to belong to a group of, for lack of a better word, psychopaths. For this principal reason, I do not feel that their input will be of any help, healing or otherwise. While I eagerly welcome apologies from the FGAs who have posted on this site, and hope that others will continue to follow this trend, I have no desire to see these self-same individuals become actively involved in discussions pertaining to their original post. Again, this is because they cannot possibly fathom what we went through as children. While they may have been in the same group and had their own set of guidelines and restrictions, they were a part of said group by choice. We on the other hand, were there because our parents decided to fuck one another without the use of contraceptives, whether they knew each other or not. This to me does not constitute my need to be tolerant of their attempts to ‘help’ or ‘advise’. In my own opinion, there advice is useless and redundant. They didn’t live our lives, and have no similar experiences with leaving. They had lived in reality before. And while it may have been a distant memory, it was nonetheless a very real experience that they could rely on for their own resilience and success capabilities. All former first generation members were born in ‘the real world’. They more than likely had the option to go to college and get an education. Most probably had parents who could afford to send them had they decided that academia was there path. If they didn’t it was their choice and more than likely went against their parents’ wishes for their futures. My parents on the other hand, who are still in the cult unfortunately, can not help me any way besides dispensing this never ending ‘advice’. All I ever get from them is ‘guidance’ and I’m quite sick of it. I am in need of help, no question about that. However, the help I need is not one of guidance. Fuck, I know what I want to do with my life. I just don’t have the means to put myself through college, work to pay my bills, and find time for the small pleasures in life such as recreational drugs, or even sports. If I had parents who were capable of paying my tuition, I would be a much freer, happier individual, all mental issues derived from the cult aside. Addressing those issues, I know I need therapy. I would love to get therapy. Yes, there are ways I can go about getting some without it costing a fortune, but the few times I’ve attempted to start therapy, I’ve found the therapists to be more able to deal with ‘troubled’ homes, not being able to fathom the mental, physical, emotional, and occasional sexual abuse that I went through, cults being the isolated phenomena they are. I see no reason for toleration of friendly ‘banter’ with FG ex-members on our site. It seems to me that they only capable only of offering their sympathies to us SG ex-members, when they are (if not the primary than definitely the secondary) cause for the vast majority of our grievances. They enforced Family policy; they administered the physical, emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse. Their excuse of ‘we were victims too’ doesn’t cut it. They did not have to follow the ranting of an alcoholic, deranged pedophile to the point where they estranged and humiliated their own children if they did not want to. They were in the group BY CHOICE! Something we were deprived of until they day we decided to finally leave for good. They did nothing to help us then, and now their words ring emptily in my ears. It’s very convenient for them to come forward and say their apologies and assume that we’ll all lovingly embrace them with open arms now, after the fact and the exposure stemming directly from Ricky’s sacrifice. Where were these apologies and attempted camaraderie when we so desperately needed both??? Why has it taken so long for any of them to admit that they were privy to, and the perpetrators of abuses suffered by us?? And finally, why is it that when they are treated as second class citizens on OUR site, they have the audacity to demand their acceptance on the single solitary fact that they too left The Family International/Children of God?? I don’t have it in me to accept them to OUR site unconditionally yet. I am not Christian and have no feelings of guilt in being so antagonistic and combative towards them. I say they deserve to stew in their guilt for a while. It’s a pittance compared to what they helped to put us through! Why can’t they let us have OUR space and let it be just that: OUR very own space, without them?? If you ask me, we SG survivors deserve at least that! (reply to this comment)

From Fish Thursday, March 24, 2005, 06:37 (Agree/Disagree?) excelent! Very well put.(reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 17:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Here here, Conan, I believe you have made some excellent observations. Frankly, despite being the "first son" of Isot, prophecied over and raised much like Ricky Rodriguez to take over the cult, and even after 20 years of non-stop indoctrination, it was my love for my small children that made me question all I had learned, and leave. When I began to understand that I was expected to subject my own precious babies to the life I had experienced, I recoiled in horror and flatly refused, and my wife and I left it all behind. With $500 dollars I "stole" by daring to keep my last paycheck, I took my family away and started from nothing. Luckily for me, they had sent me to college as part of a campaign to get system financing and support for their work with children (paid for, of course, by my "systemite" father who was never in the cult and just trying to help me), so I actually had a chance to slowly get on my feet and begin a life. After ten years of daily suicidal thoughts, held off ONLY by love for my children, and becoming a 425 pound, self-hating shell, I finally began the process of coming alive about five years ago. Now I am a 190-pound much-more-self-loving individual, active anti-cult expert and a proud father and husband, actually beginning to enjoy some days, the first days of my life, free from the pain and the horror of my cult past. I certainly understand your antipathy towards your abusers. Also, if you are interested, the exIsot group has extended scholarships to an excellent exCult workshop offered by the International Cultic Studies Association (formerly the American Family Foundation), with a Cult Survivor’s Workshop on July 22-24, 2005 in Estes Park, Colorado. If you can get yourself to/from Denver International on the appropriate dates, the scholarship includes transporation to/from Estes Park, lodging and meals, and the tuition for the workshop. I have been there three times myself; the staff is composed of very sensitive exCult members, and the experience has been extremely valuable, an excellent starting point for serious survivor therapy.(reply to this comment)

From conan Thursday, March 24, 2005, 10:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for the info Mic. I'll keep it in mind!(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:02 (Agree/Disagree?) I feel it's also an age thing, coupled with the lenght of time you have been out. Also reading up on mind control, manipulation and social conditioning would help you understand where they were coming from and the web they got meshed in. But of course right now you are not in that stage and you have evry right to express your anger at them. (Having both parents still in does not help either IMO) (reply to this comment)

From conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) WHO THE FUCK ASKED YOU?? I said it was my opinion at the beginning and now you're going to try and tell me why that is my opinion?? I said I needed therapy, but not from you! It has nothing to do with either my age or my length of time out of the cult. It has to do with my perception on reality. Now, as per my comments intro, kindly kiss my ass!!(reply to this comment)

from conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Can I ask what the fuck these ex ‘Isot-ers’ (whatever they’re called) are doing on our site and what our ‘relationship’ with our first generation ex-members has anything at all to do with them?? I don’t want to be the only one who sees this in this way, but the intent of this website is not to reconcile our collective pasts with our collective abusers from this aforementioned past. I feel the pain of other ex-cultists, but why are they on our site?? And more importantly, who the fuck do they think they are to point out to us how to ‘move on’ from our ‘issues’ when they obviously have their own shit to deal with. I don’t know why you posted this here GoldenMic, and while I don’t know you and so have nothing against you personally , I think that if you have already made up your own mind regarding first generational contact on this site for us second-generationers, then why bother posting this ridiculous blurb in the first place. Michael M. and all other IsotNoters, stay out of our business. You don’t know us or our issues, and I think I speak for many on this site when I say, and we don’t want to know you or your issues. We have our own problems which occupy enough of our time without us trying to help you all with yours. FUCK OFF! (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Conan, GoldenMic actually knows quite a bit about our business and issues.He has also been courteous, polite, respectful and insightful participant and part of this site years before you came around. He is from a cult that in my opinion way extremely close to ours. He is also coming to the Memorial as our guest and you do NOT speak for many of us on this site maybe a few. He was alone when he left his cult just as many of us were when we first left and I suppose by finding our site he felt comfortable with us as we had similar back grounds. Besides, this was a public site not just for us exmemebrs from the family but for other sga’s from other cults as well. The Safe passage foundation which Jules has started is for the same purpose it’s for sga’s leaving any cult. In fact GoldenMic and his wife are both sga’s and have volunteered their time and expertise to the SPF as well. So please give him a chance he's not "taking you site from you"(reply to this comment)

From conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Fina, please scroll down to see that the issues you had with my post were already dealt with. But, I never accused him of 'taking the site from us' (or from me for that matter). My original post was regarding the fact that non ex-Family members of any group other than our very own second-generation ex-members (this includes former FG ex-members of the TF being excluded)belonged here. I didn't know what the posting was in regards to or from. I have already ammended these points to my satisfaction, and yours too I hope if you'll just read a little further down the page.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Oops, Sorry Conan I just scrolled down and read the rest of your conversation. (which I should have done in the first place) and see it was already worked out. In my defense I was at work and just clicked on MO for a second in between calls and read that first comment you made and that was it. I wasn't going to even say anything at first but it really started to get to me. I must admit I've been a little temperamental lately. Frankly I am just getting tired of trying to put out fires and feuds amongst those attending Ricky's Memorial.I'm sick of all the hostility and Rudeness to others. It's just really has upset me lately that we can't just get along for a few weeks I certainly hope we can at least for a few hrs. I probably should just stay off here till it's over and I'm in my right mind again. (reply to this comment)

From conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:31 (Agree/Disagree?) No problem, Sara!! Don't worry, you'll be fine with a good night's sleep But the rudeness and feuds are soooooo fun :-p No, I actually know what you mean and hope that the memorial is wonderful for all involved parties. I wish that I could attend but unfortunately I cannot. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Wrong. This site is, and always has been "The website created by and for young adults with parents who joined the religious organization The Family / Children of God." Just because GoldenMic may need to do some moving on, doesn't mean he necessarily belongs on MovingOn. The Safe Passage Foundation is the one that's for children who grew up in isolated communities in general. Please don't get the two confused.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I am not confused Joe. IF this site was indeed for exfamily only then why isn't it closed and a password required to enter? We've had this argument on here many times before and if I had time I would search the site for the comments made earlier as it was my understanding that the site was open to other sgas as well. I certainly hope you will not be running your mouth at the memorial as rudely as you do to people on this site. Because I am not Jules and will ask you to leave if you insult people there the way you do here. Seriously what has happened to you lately you’ve really become an ass Joe and I’m beginning to be ashamed that I ever was friends with you or stood up and supported you. I used to think you were a good, funny and intelligent person but you have really just taken things pretty far lately. If I were you now and had your personality I certainly wouldn’t be proud of who I’d become. (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 11:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Whew, Conan, your powerful and original commentary had me shivering and gnashing my teeth. I have never been told to fuck off before, so I just shat my pants when you got mean. Hey idiot, I was politely asking for feedback, something I think you and your peers can handle despite having your own problems, and it does not help matters that you clearly didn't even fully read what I wrote, and you were able to construe my comments into some kind of recommendation as to how exTF's should do things... As far as your grandiose feelings of injured altruism, and how you simply cannot be bothered to help other little exCulties because you and those supposed "many" you speak for (like you would know?) being much too special to give a shit, you sound like the elders and FGA's from both our pasts, and I am no more willing than you to have ANY person push me around. (reply to this comment)

From conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 12:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, if you read what I wrote, I never told you to 'fuck off'. Unless of course you're an ex-isot something or other-er, then yes...do fuck off!! As for the rest of your post...it's beneath me to even bother to 'defend' myself....have a nice life!(reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 13:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, I am indeed an exisot, so I guess you WERE telling me to fuck off. Certainly when you personally created this site, you forgot to set up a "delete" for everybody you don't like. Or maybe you didn't set this site up at all, and you are just ranting and raving like some kind of cult leader about how the non-annointed should leave you alone and go away. Frankly, I was glad to note that your last post suggested that some things ARE beneath you, as I was beginning to wonder if there were ANY limits to your rudeness and phobic reactions. Anyway, as a SG cult-survivor, its doing me some good to assert my right to be heard wherever the hell I please, and I suppose its doing you some good to scream at everybody on this site that offends you, so maybe our time is not being totally wasted. (reply to this comment)

From from conan Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 13:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, let's back this whole thing up! First of all, I had no idea that you were an exisot (I think that's how you put it) and as such made my original comments under the assumption that you were, like me, an SG ex-member of TF. I have no idea what your background is like, but obviously I can sympathize, being that we both were not dealt the hand we would have liked. I definitely proved that 'assuming makes an ass out of you and me' and as such, would like to take back my original comment as I was in no position to have made the comments I did based on my limited knowledge of your situation. You're right that no one likes being told what to do, and while I may not understand why you grace us with your presence on this site, I would have to assume that your contact with us has somehow helped (or is helping) you to heal. It could be merely the fact that you have found there to be other young people in the world who have grown up in inexplicably repressed, religious cults and this bizarre ‘bond’ would hint at your being made welcome. That being said, I still don’t completely understand why you posted this (your post on the exIsot site that is) in reference to our interaction with FG ex-ers from our cult; TF. I’m just curious as to why this is even of concern to you. Clear that up for me and I don’t think we’ll have any problems. Hey, you may even get the ‘feedback’ you want from me too!! :-) Peace (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 14:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks Conan, that was very gracious of you and really do appreciate it. You are right that I do get something important from my interactions here. Coming from a much smaller cult, with only 35 active "survivor's, its frankly lonely and isolating, and I spent many years thinking that absolutley nobody could or would bother to hear me and my pain. Then, I met Daniel Roselle and Julia McNeil at a cult conference where they discussed their website. I then set up one for my few friends and associates who had left my cult, and the results were amazingly healing. I have, since then, met and become friends with some SGA's and this has become a precious part of my own emotional support network. A few of these SGA's have even joined our private website, IsotNot@yahoogroups.com, and I must admit that they occasionally make some innocous comments and get a load of defensive hostility from my exIsot peers, which is why I try to be relatively restrained when I get blasted here. This "triggering" effect and the rather shrill insistence upon one's hard-won right to independent and unrestrained comments, is a classic exCult phenomenon, so it doesn't make sense to take it too personal. That being said, what I was trying to address in the article was not a judgement or even an opinion about MovingOn, but I am trying to examine how the reality of our (exIsot) much-smaller numbers might take advantage of "mixing" between the generations, a matter of necessity to even sustain our small virtual community, and asking our much-bigger "fellow survivors" for any reactions this raised. The idea here is that, despite the unavoidable need for our small group to band together, I am hoping to get viewpoints that might help us better understand some of the conflicts and/or benefits that might accrue from such mixing. Again, thank you very much for your kindness in re-visitng your response to me. Having seen your posts scattered through the MovingOn site, I realize that you are very passionate in wanting this site to be free of unnecessary outside commentary, and I am humbled that you actually listened to me and responded. Only a fellow ex'er could know how difficult it is to back off when one feels attacked, and you have my sincere gratitude and respect.(reply to this comment)

from hanonima2004 Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 20:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi Michael, Well, I disagree too with your suggestions. I don't think I am against a certain dialogue or a certain relationship between generations, I only think this process is too early. The main issue of the children I believe, is that they never had a place. Parents and leaders's needs took the place of children's needs, religion and doctrine replaced education and experimentation was done on children's lives. For once, on this site, we have a place of our own where we can talk «without» them preaching or disputing us. I think this second generation needs primarly to understand her own particularities within the process of integration into the mainstreem society, to find her own identity and to distanciate herself from the first generation. Then, when those distinctions will be clear, maybe a relationship could occur. Anyway, this is what I think. Lorraine (yes, Lorraine from Montreal!) (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Tuesday, March 22, 2005, 21:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Excellent point, and I agree that its VERY important that we SGAs have a place where we can express ourselves and share without that sense of "elders" hanging over our heads. Frankly, that's one of the reasons I come here.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:19 (Agree/Disagree?) "a place where we can express ourselves and share" We don't "share" anymore, buddy. Sorry if you had your hopes up that anybody was going to "share" with you.(reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe, you are clearly a big boy, and frankly its obvious that you are smart as a whip. You're also frequently cruel and abusive too, but I usually find you being far funnier than you intend as you combine a sharp wit with an incredible lack of consciousness of how and where your cult past interfere's with your logic and clarity. Joe, I simply cannot begin to imagine what might happen in your life, and potentially even here on this site and among your peers, if you actually applied your formidable intellect to studying and learning a little about the cult phenomenon, and more specifically, the exCult phenomenon. You were very clearly "triggered" by the word "sharing", and despite being routinely shamelessly abusive in discussing incorrect language and grammar of others, you did not even see yourself totally reacting to the word "sharing" in a manner that has NOTHING to do with its actual meaning and etiology, and everything to do with your own contextualized aversions and trauma. Gotcha', buddy! Affectionately noted.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, I was humorously pointing out the fact that if you had grown up in OUR cult you would know better than to use a sentence like that, and in so doing, managed to mock both your ignorance and the cult's weirdness at the same time. I thought it was pretty clever, but I guess unto them it is given to know the secrets of Joe's brilliance, not unto you, blind sheep of Isot! (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 17:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe, you just can't stop yourself, can you? It will doubtless shock you to know that my cult, too, used "sharing" as a code word for castigating, verbally harassing, and humiliating us. Frankly, that word is almost universally hated by the entire cult survivor community. Even so, you are right to note that even simple words are major triggers for us, explaining why its so difficult to communicate on this site without offending every third person. Joe, what did you think of the recent post where it was proposed that you are actually a constructed marketing tool, designed to continously tweak us all into higher levels of instensity and "sharing" on this site? I thought that was a shining tribute to your acidic wittiness, and must have made you proud. (reply to this comment)

From Banshee Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 17:49 (Agree/Disagree?) In our cult "sharing" meant having sex with someone, often against your will or being pressured into it, "sharing schedules" were assigned sex partners, and "sharing at a fellowship" meant an orgy. So yeah, I guess you could call it a trigger word.(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 17:59 (Agree/Disagree?) What's with all this calling TF 'our cult'? - Unless of course you're actually *in* the cult - it isn't 'yours'. - It certainly isn't *my* cult, being born into it notwithstanding. (reply to this comment)

From Banshee Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 18:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Sheesh, sorry! I only used it as in "our cult, his cult" context. I should have just said, in TF. (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 19:02 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess I could have worded my comment to not sound so terribly serious and all. My bad. (reply to this comment)

From Banshee Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 20:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Heh, no worries :) (reply to this comment)

From ErikMagnusLehnsher Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 20:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Roughneck, you're too gracious sometimes. I thought I was about to witness another f-bomb-laced multi-post smackdown that would last at least 48 hours and you apologize. Damn Canadians! ;) (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 17:47 (Agree/Disagree?) In case you didn't already know, 'sharing' in The Family is a euphemism for swinging, wife swapping or just plain old sex outside of marriage. Also see 'date' for another word that TF misuses in this manner.(reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 19:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Good point, in the cult of my youth, sex was actually defined as sin and evil (which has never stopped or otherwise effected the rampant screwing of peers, children, and any other avilable object), the one huge difference that makes TF particularly famous and particularly toxic for SGA's and other children in TF. However, its true that "sharing" was not ever explicitly referring to sanctioned sexual excess, but to the "heavenly relationships" that inevitably ended up with somebody's spouse or some poor child getting nailed, usually by an elder. So, I take it that I should not offer "sharing" here unless I want to lose body parts!(reply to this comment)

From unless..... Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 21:21 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:25 (Agree/Disagree?) OUR cult? Speak for yourself pal.(reply to this comment)

From yah Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:11 (Agree/Disagree?) if only he'd employ his "new weapons" against deserving recipients(reply to this comment)

From 28k Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:01 (Agree/Disagree?) If I only made 28k a year like Joe, I'd be pretty bitter too. (reply to this comment)

from Sonderval Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 01:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I disagree with these points and thought I'd post my thoughts as I've been thinking a lot about this over recent weeks. "1) Mixing between the generations allows a dialogue to grow and flourish where past oppressors and past victims can work their way through the pain and find their solidarity in their current resistance to the cult." Why exactly is solidarity with those who oppressed us a good thing? I'm afraid I don't and have never accepted the Christian concept that forgiveness is essential, I'm pretty comfortable with my dislike toward those who have ruined my life, I think trying to forge a meaningful relationship with them would be a little warped and weird. "2) Mixing allows the "triggers" to be revealed and worked on, something that is much harder to do with ANY other outsiders." I have many valued friends among 'outsiders' and I personally think that's far healthier than hanging around with FGAs who chose to participate in shoving their messed up beliefs down my unwilling throat. Good for them if they later realised what they were doing and tried to apologise, apology accepted, but excuse me if I still don't have you over on poker night. "3) Maybe most important, ALL ex'ers share a common concern for those who remain and for obtaining justice for their own victimization. By splitting forces, missing the opportunity offered to increase numbers, energy, and even financial and professional clout, valuable opportunities are lost." I don't consider people who after living in the real world choose to surrender their free will and sanity to a cult and then take part in the systemic abuse of their offspring to be 'victims'. I welcome anyone who is making a difference in the fight against the cult and am prepared to exchange mutual aid in a common fight, but the enemy of my enemy is just my ally, not necessarily my friend. That said, I have a lot less antipathy to FGAs than many here, I don't find them inherently offensive except when they start preaching or being overly strident. As long as they realise that the issues that SGAs have to deal with are completely different to FGAs as we were robbed of our childhoods, education, socialisation, and in many cases any chance of leading a 'normal' life. Any exploitation of FGAs they earned through their own stupidity and that same stupidity made what happened to us possible. I think any FGA here who expects more than tolerance of their presence as long as they don't talk out of turn has not fully accepted what happened to us and the part they played in it, seeking to be 'one of the gang' is not something that the majority of people here will ever accept, and I think rightly so. (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Tuesday, March 22, 2005, 09:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for the thoughtful and reasoned response. By the end of your comments, I was wondering what the heck my own point was! Frankly, I agree with you that, from our position as SGAs, the FGA's have NO right to expect an enthusiastic desire for friendship, and the generally tolerant response here seems entirely reasonable, as does the vitriolic reaction each time an FGA gets preachy. Of course, in my much-smaller exCult community, we have a smaller support group and are therefore more tolerant. Meanwhile, there are two other points worth considering, I think. First, almost all of the research and writings on cult involvement strongly suggests that people who enter cults are very likely the victims of insidious and powerful mind-control. I know this is difficult for us SGAs to accept, when we remember those sanctimonious jerks using and abusing their power over us. However, the truth is, the more you read and investigate the cult phenomenon, the more it appears that a sick form of personality-warping domination was involved. As for forgiving them just because they, too, were victimized, I agree that's a personal matter and not something we should ever feel obligated to do, unless its part of our own healing and growth. A second point, raised in my original comments, is that we might still be missing something in allowing the division between generations to exsist. In denying the shared rejection of the cult's beliefs and practices, the common bond that all "ex" cult members have, it is probably true that we split our potential energy and power to seriously disrupt and destroy a cult that we both want to see held accountable. Thanks again for your response. It was no fun writing about it, and I don't imagine its all that comfortable for you to even consider this perspective. (reply to this comment)

From Sonderval Tuesday, March 22, 2005, 10:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I do understand your points and as I said, I'm a lot more tolerant than many, my own mother joined the cult directly after being released from hospital after suffering a nervous breakdown, I understand that she joined because she wasn't capable of making decisions about her own life any more and the mind will sieze upon any rope thrown. It's only natural that she would join an organisation that offered happiness and removed the need to think for one's self, institutionalisation is a well documented condition. My father joined the cult directly after leaving prison, see above, I also understand my father's need to abuse power, he's a very short slender man who was a massive disappointment to his dockworker of a father and needed to feel powerful. I understand the capability of the human mind to rationalise away contradictions and offer excuses so it can get what it wants and needs, the human mind is a very slippery customer. I understand all of this, but I also know that all of the above is a choice, taking the easy route is a choice, they could have chosen to stop and consider rather than rationalise and dismiss all the wrongs they saw and participated in, I have faced that choice many times in many situations in my life and I think in the most part I have done a better job than my parents. There is a difference between understanding and forgiveness however, there is always a reason for someone's actions, every murderer, rapist, paedophile and cult leader in the world has reasons for their actions, does this make them any less responsible for their choices? I take responsibility for my actions in life because I am an adult, I think everyone is capable of doing the same whether or not they choose to do it, mental laziness is not an excuse. Saying sorry after the fact is important as it shows they are trying to change and will hopefully do better in the future but it does not erase their actions. As for the common bond of a shared rejection of the cult's beliefs and practices, yes I accept that which is why I am more tolerant of FGAs than most here. But it makes them reformed criminals rather than chronic recidivists, as I say unless an FGA steps out of line and starts getting preachy I tolerate their presence here (speaking only for myself). But the simple fact of the matter is they were complicit in any victimisation they suffered, whereas we were not, for this reason I do not see them as equally deserving of my respect for having overthrown the controls they were under and leaving the cult. And yes, anyone working to stop the abuses and wrongs that the cult perpetuated I respect for their efforts and will always do what I can to help and will offer encouragement and support to, it's a worthy cause and I think any ally is a bonus, but there is no such thing as a clean slate, you cannot undo the past, I live with my past and what I have been through every day of my life, it's part of who I am. I can understand but never fully forgive, I think trying to do so would be trying to forget my past and run away from it, I've spent a great deal of my life since leaving trying to do just that and it simply does not work. PS. The punctuation in this comment is crap and the whole thing is disjointed and rambling, I don't give a shit as I don't feel like re-reading it and correcting it, if anyone feels like replying pointing out my errors they can suck my b****.(reply to this comment)