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from Repost from elsewhere Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 13:39 (Agree/Disagree?) 10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god. 9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt. 8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god. 7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" -- including women, children, and trees! 6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky. 5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old. 4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects -- will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving". 3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity. 2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. 1 - You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but still call yourself a Christian (reply to this comment)

From Arneth Tuesday, January 17, 2006, 01:28 (Agree/Disagree?) 1. You acknowledge that modern science, for all its efficacy and the wonder of it all (I am studying to be a physicist) cannot address basic questions having to do with the meaning of life and existence. 2. You acknowledge that a story can be true (as in valid for human experience) without it actually happening. Hamlet never happened but we can mine the texts for truths about human nature. Same thing for much of the Bible. 3. You define prayer as a means to spend time in God's presence and not a supernatural vending machine. 4. You stop spouting drivel that is the standard, sophomoric atheist/skeptical line of 'attack' and either humbly try to engage the real questions or get on with your life.(reply to this comment)

from true Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 21:25 (Agree/Disagree?) yo its fine to belive any thing you want but jesus is a fake just like maria and peter are. no one can prove that there is a god or a after life. we dont really know till we die. and any one who thinks there is some thing let me see you prove it..... religion sucks all religion. (reply to this comment)

From thinker711 Thursday, June 23, 2005, 10:46 (Agree/Disagree?) True, just because you cannot prove something does not mean it is not real. I agree that you cannot prove the existence of God, which is where faith comes in. If you could prove it, there would be no need for faith. Using temporal and human reasoning to try to prove the existence of something spiritual is an exercise in futility (which is why I am not interested in people proving God's existence). In regard to your challenge, the logic works the other way as well; that is, you cannot prove the absence of God. Thus, it is futile to try to "prove" anything related to what we cannot observe (but feel free to try to prove God does not exist).(reply to this comment)

From Lance Thursday, June 23, 2005, 18:15 (Agree/Disagree?) God is Santa Claus for grown ups. Sure I cannot prove the absence of a god. But the arguments against there being one far outweigh the arguments for there being one; after all, I cannot prove the absence of the tooth fairy, but every one knows that it's just a story you tell to your kids. Likewise, I cannot prove the absence of god, but every one knows deep down inside that it's a sham. You should read some of Joseph Cambells books on the power of myth; perhaps you'll get a general idea about where such ideas come from.(reply to this comment)

From thinker711 Friday, June 24, 2005, 09:58 (Agree/Disagree?) You write, " I cannot prove the absence of god, but every one knows deep down inside that it's a sham." However, this same logic is use by the religious (e.g., "everyone knows deep down that their is a higher power"). Indeed, this same logic could explain the institution of religion (i.e., there really is something out there, which is why humans have a need for deity). I agree that these things cannot be proven, and all we have is evidence (rather than proof) upon which we must base our decisions/beliefs. However, this requires an interpretation of the evidence. For some, the mere fact that the world exists and works so perfectly is evidence of a creator or designer. Thus, it all comes down to which perspective you chose to analyze the evidence. My original comment was directed to True's challenge ("any one who thinks there is some thing let me see you prove it"). If we were dealing with scientific issues, I would be the first to insist on strong evidence (or "proof" when possible). The challenge is pointless, because we are dealing with issue of faith not science. With faith, everyone has their own reasons for why they belief in something, which are not always based on empirical evidence. (reply to this comment)

From roxal Thursday, June 23, 2005, 19:08 (Agree/Disagree?) God; does he exist or not? A question asked billions of times around the planet on a daily basis. Why won’t people just realize that we will never be able to prove either answer to this question? Why not just find something else that makes sense to live by? Like maybe believing in yourself? Believing that you can and will make the right choices in life if you sit and think about them and weigh the moral ups and downs of each decision. Believing that you are responsible for what goes on around you. Believing in the ability we all have to know what is right and wrong for us at any particular moment without the need for “guidance” from a god that no one can prove exists. Believing that if you want something bad enough and work your but off for it, you will have more chances of getting it than if you just sit and pray to some imaginary being to give it to you. Believing that bad things do happen, and they have little or nothing to do with your religious beliefs. I could go on and on, these are just some of my beliefs. However, I also believe that no two human beings are the same. We weren’t made to all believe the same things, or to even try to live our lives exactly the same. We all are in different circumstances and it would be absurd to think that what works for one of us would always work for everyone. Your life is unique and you should never try to completely model your life after someone else, or much less a book. Sit down one day, write down everything you like and want. Your dreams and hopes. And try your best to live your life accordingly. Keep in mind that you will always experience a change of opinion so make your goals short term and attainable. Good luck. We spend so much time trying to figure out everything around us, when what really matters is learning who we really are and how well we know ourselves. (reply to this comment)

From Lance Friday, June 24, 2005, 01:59 (Agree/Disagree?) After reading your little motivational speech I feel as if I owe you money for it or something... Did Tony Robbins get a new sidekick? No seriously, it was a good read! But I think that Atheism and so called "believing in oneself" go hand in hand.(reply to this comment)

From roxal Friday, June 24, 2005, 07:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Well if you want to pay me something for it, I could supply you with my address or account number. No, seriously, who doesn't need the money? And to clear things up a bit, Atheism and "believing in oneself" do not go hand in hand. Atheism is a belief in that there is no God, a direct non-belief in a God or higher supernatural being. An atheist is; one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. I didn’t say whether or not I believed in the existence of God. I think it’s irrelevant what you believe, because no one can prove to me that there does or doesn’t exist a God. So why waste time deciding whether or not to believe in something that can’t be backed up with proof in either direction, when you can believe in yourself. It just makes more sense to me. I believe I exist (fact, example: I am a living human being who breathes, eats, and sleeps), I believe I have the power to do things (fact, example: I can in fact pick up a piece of paper and write something on it), I believe I will have more chances of getting something done by actually doing it than praying to some magical entity in the sky to do it for me (fact, example: If I want a job, I have more chances of getting one by looking for it actively than sitting at home and praying to a god), I believe that I have the power to change some of my circumstances (fact, example: If I have no car, I can in fact work for money which will in turn help with the purchasing of a car), and I believe that if something bad happens to me or someone I know it was the direct result of the circumstances surrounding me/person I know (fact, example: if I get into a car crash with a drunk driver, it was a direct result from him having drinking to much alcohol, getting into a vehicle and droving in direction to my car). I could waste time trying to believe in something that can’t be proved, or I can believe in something that in itself is proof enough. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, June 24, 2005, 08:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Isn't it a bit presumtuous to say "...no one can prove to me that there does or doesn’t exist a God."? I realize the up to this point nobody has come close to proving this to you, but to make up your mind that this is utterly unprovable, one way or the other, seems just as strange as the preconception that there is or not a deity. (reply to this comment)

From roxal Friday, June 24, 2005, 09:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Well yes you’re right; I should refrain from generalizing like that. Maybe some day, some one might be able to prove one of the two arguments. How old is the earth? Whether you believe it to be billions or merely thousands of years , so far , no one has successfully proved to me either of them. So in the mean time, I will not waste my time trying to figure it out, I will simply believe in the believable, do what is doable, change what is changeable, and live based on what I know to be true, keeping in mind that there is always that slight chance that one day it will be proved.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, June 24, 2005, 17:25 (Agree/Disagree?) The age of the earth has lately been pinpointed at about 4.5 billion years old. Perhaps this hasn't been "proven" to you because you haven't looked into the recent science that has been offered on the matter?(reply to this comment)

From roxal Friday, June 24, 2005, 07:53 (Agree/Disagree?) A few spelling errors I’d like to correct: (Fact, example: if I get into a car crash with a drunk driver, it is a direct result from him drinking too much alcohol, getting into a vehicle and driving in the direction to my car). (reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, June 24, 2005, 00:25 (Agree/Disagree?) God for some is like the ultimate placebo, if they believe hard enough, they'll adapt any situation in their mind to fit that notion. God is not the only example of this. Humans are the only creatures on this planet with anything remotely like religion. So it stands to reason that religion is a human trait, as such, to understand it one must study human behaviour, to identify the catalysts that trigger the need for this god figure. The devil, (or dissincarnate evil, in whatever guise or name it appears) is conversly the ultimate scapegoat or excuse. The best way some have to pass the blame and their own moral resposibility onto an abstract. Once again, human behavior is at the root of this invention. Naturally, this is an oversimplified presentation of the concept. Nobody likes long windedness. (Well I don't anyway). (reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, June 23, 2005, 11:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh, but what can be observed is what drives a superstitious human to need a deity to worship. Once that is understood, the existance of the god phenomenon is quite easily qunatifiable. As far as exercises in futility go, trying to hammer some common sence into a diehard christian ranks at the top. (reply to this comment)

From thinker711 Thursday, June 23, 2005, 12:03 (Agree/Disagree?) But, even that is not directly observed (i.e., the human need for a savior). Rather, it is based on the assumption that there is no higher power. I agree that it is reasonable to conclude that religion was created by humans because, a) human misery and suffering was unbearable and the idea of an afterlife eased human pain and made life worth living or b) it was created by elites in order to control the people and prevent them from uprising (i.e., opiate of the masses). Both explanations have historical support and intuitively make sense. However, neither "prove" that God does not exist (which was my point to begin with, that is, the existence of God can not be proven or disproved). They are simply theories as to the creation of religion. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, June 23, 2005, 13:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Read the second paragraph of the above post.(reply to this comment)

From thinker711 Thursday, June 23, 2005, 13:27 (Agree/Disagree?) That second paragraph goes both ways. My stance is against dogmatism, either Christian or atheist. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, June 23, 2005, 13:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Perhaps, but seeing as I'm agnostic, I would fall outside both those categories.(reply to this comment)

from support separation of church and state Monday, March 07, 2005 - 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Humanists Reject Manipulation of Children by Religious Group For Immediate Release - Contact: Roy Speckhardt (202) 238-9088 (Washington, DC, August 27, 2003) “A religious group is unethically circumventing the separation of religion and government by recruiting children to advance its sectarian faith in public schools,” said American Humanist Association Executive Director Tony Hileman. The evangelical group American Family Radio and Revival Fires Ministries recently started an annual back-to-school “Truth for Youth Revival Week.” By law, adults cannot distribute sectarian literature on public school grounds. So this group recruits children to hand out New Testaments featuring comic strips, which they call “the Youth for Truth Bible,” to “the unsaved” in public schools. Responded Hileman, “The mere presence of Bible-toting children out to convert “the unsaved” forces fellow students to accept or reject aggressive Christian proselytizing. Given the resources of students backed by a ministry, this raises the question of whether such students have an unfair advantage over other groups in spreading their message on public school campuses. “The AHA doesn’t advocate censorship but rather fair play, and it is difficult to see how promoting this one-sided view has any academic value. Their purpose is clearly to convert as many youths as possible to their particular sectarian beliefs. That’s hardly educational. “Even worse, they don’t shy away from using children to accomplish what they legally cannot do themselves,” concluded Hileman. http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn= atheism&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infidels.org%2Forg%2Faha%2Fdocuments%2Fmanifesto2.html (reply to this comment)

from Sir Rantalot Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 14:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Well after that load of shit, why don't you chow 2 Viagras, dance naked(except for your bible) in the streets of some jaded south American city and tell everyone, "I am the great masturbator!" Nothing like some random, free expression to help clear away the blues and cure a neurotic disorder. Sheesh, only in the intellectually medieval US do debates of this sort still go on, "god exists" "no, he doesn't, prove him to me" "you prove me he doesn't exist, I can feel him in my solar plexus when my pickup hits a bump" blah blah blah Well, I think we should have another world war, for the fun of it, and no killing royalty this time as an excuse to start the killing, bombing and other fun games, this time it was some naked American sporting a hard-on and a Bible that lit the fuse. That was a bit of nonsense, as I don't think this thread really deserves a serious reply, naughty, naughty, boys, playing naked together like that our only milk cow, it'll be cod liver oil and no supper for you rascals tonight. ..and off goes granny Elga to fix herself another opium poppy tea, leaving two crestfallen boys locked up in the pantry of the small farmhouse out in the big, wild west. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 14:43 (Agree/Disagree?) He'd better not, because I'm the Great Masturbator! Always have been, always will be!(reply to this comment)

From vixen Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 14:24 (Agree/Disagree?) He's baaaaaaack!!! ; )(reply to this comment)

from Some good quotes Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 13:35 (Agree/Disagree?) The apple cannot be stuck back on the Tree of Knowledge; once we begin to see, we are doomed and challenged to seek the strength to see more, not less. Arthur Miller When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. Bishop Desmond Tutu No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means. George Bernard Shaw The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. Friedrich Nietzsche Born again?! No, I'm not. Excuse me for getting it right the first time. Dennis Miller It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics or chemistry. H. L. Mencken We are punished by our sins, not for them. Elbert Hubbard If we are going to teach creation science as an alternative to evolution, then we should also teach the stork theory as an alternative to biological reproduction. Judith Hayes There seems to be a terrible misunderstanding on the part of a great many people to the effect that when you cease to believe you may cease to behave. Louis Kronenberger Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?" Annie Dillard Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. Thomas JeffersonIf If it's natural to kill, how come men have to go into training to learn how? Joan Baez http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/politics.html (reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 13:59 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.letstalksense.com/quotes.html(reply to this comment)

from Marc Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 20:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Well. I just stumbled onto this exchange and have discovered that I have missed most of the fun already. It is just too hilarious to come across the likes of "highonhigh", "Webel", and "whatever1037" (should that be "whatever10:36er"?). Have you forgotten that we were raised uber-Christian? Or, are you just trying to insult us? Since you are essentially calling us idiots (or "fools who hath said") who can't find the truth and are looking in all the wrong places, allow me to reciprocate: Fuck off morons!! This book you and yours call "Holy" should be rated R. You tell others to avoid violent and perverted movies and books and read the Bible instead (not to mention freaking out over an exposed nipple). Well, since you read and quote from your Bible so often and tell others that they can only find the truth in its holy scriptures, allow me to provide a pleasant example of your Holy God and His Holy Word: ===================================== Judges 19: 19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. 19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. 19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. 19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. 19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds. ===================================== Don't forget to read the Bible before bedtime children! You know, I would have absolutely no problem with you Christians (or any other religious people), but then you HAVE to go around telling the rest of us that only you know the truth and we had better repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, or something. Do you really have to follow Mark 16:15? Why not also follow Exodus 21:17 when it commands that "he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."? Oh, wait. That is the Old Law written by Moses and Jesus came with a new law, right? Well, they why don't you also forget about your story of Creation . . . it was also written by Moses? This site should be for Christians and atheists alike, but do us all a favour and keep your religion to yourselves! (reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Saturday, February 26, 2005, 22:07 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think so. I can talk about anything I want. If you get bother, worked up about it, it's not my problem but yours. I don't want to keep it to my self. What are you going to do about it. call me a freek, stupid moron? I care less it only makes me laugh to see the way you guys react. Sure does not seems like you don't give a damm about it because every time some one brings out anything that has to do with christianity is a big comotion you guys get all on the offensive calling names & shouting. Please Please don't mention Jesus God or the Bible to me I can't take..... But don't worry, I don't come to this site very often . & you can all say thank god for that. I post for a few days & then I just go away it bored me it's always the same people. 2500 & something register users but only what? +-50 people that are doing all the talking? Like I mention before in one of my posts this is like a little club, where youconfort yourselves with your new found freedom. It remainds me to much of the " in crowds" we used to have on the teen combos. And once in a blue moon you can actually get something good out of this whole thing. But knowing me If I just ge overly "inspired" I will probably decide to make my visit to this site a little longer. (reply to this comment)

From Marc Saturday, February 26, 2005, 23:53 (Agree/Disagree?) highonhigh: You are _completely_ missing the point here. Talk about God, Jesus, the Bible, Buddha, George Bush, sex, drugs, movies, etc. all you want (that is what the little Blue Ribbon at the bottom of the page is for) . . . just DON'T preach at me! Of course, you can do whatever you want to do but I can also tell you to Bugger off! By the way, I am not trying to be rude here, I am only playing by your (the Christian) eye-for-an-eye code of conduct. ;-) Is it really that difficult for you to understand why it is a sensitive issue for us? We were preached at our entire lives and told what the truth is and where to find it. The real truth here is that you _don't_ know anymore than the rest of us what the truth is, you only believe you do. I respect your right to believe that . . . please respect my right not to believe in that. Get it?(reply to this comment)

From Marc Sunday, February 27, 2005, 00:01 (Agree/Disagree?) PS: Is it Christ-like for you to "care less" when you pass gibes at us and it "only makes [you] laugh to see the way [we] react"? Remember, you are preaching to the choir here and we know how to dance. lol! PPS: By the way, don't take all of this too seriously. I am just having a bit of fun too. Wish I was enjoying a bit of sun on a beach in the Caribbean! All the best!(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Sunday, February 27, 2005, 09:46 (Agree/Disagree?) You are welcome! here in my little island the sun is always shining. All the best to you to. Gotta go now or i will be missing my sunday fun at the beach see you later.(reply to this comment)

From Sunday, February 27, 2005, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Maybe you should go to church instead!(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Sunday, February 27, 2005, 19:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I did yesterday, " Remember the sabath day" ten comendments(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 09:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Did you cook? Did you clean? Did you do any work of any kind? Do you know all the laws in keeping with the Sabbath as laid down by Mosaic law? How far did you travel? Please don't invoke Judaic law unless you kept it to a fault. (reply to this comment)

From moon beam Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 12:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Also you must't shave, cut your hair or wear clothes made from more than one type of cloth. (reply to this comment)

from highonhigh Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 16:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Welcome to Moving On -- The website created by and for young adults with parents who joined the religious organization The Family / Children of God. Pull up a chair and stay awhile -- Browse, read, rant, write, whatever....... except CHISTIANITY.If you are a CHRISTIAN you are NOT WELCOME. (reply to this comment)

From Actually Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 23:02 (Agree/Disagree?) We have no problems with Christians, it's the "Witnessers" and "Soul-savers" that irritate people. (reply to this comment)

From Actually Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 23:02 (Agree/Disagree?) We have no problems with Christians, it's the "Witnessers" and "Soul-savers" that irritate people. (reply to this comment)

From neez Saturday, February 26, 2005, 17:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Fuck you christians are boring dead-shits. Christians are welcome. But this site has nothing to do with religion(christians or otherwise). So if you feel the need to occasionaly break out into a speech about god and bible verses. Then we reserve the right to point out at leisure any obvious glaring problems with your stated meaning-of-life. You could worship a half-elephant(I like elephants)half horse-man named Geraldine for all I care. As long as you don't try and convince me and the rest of the free world that Geraldine is the one and only shiznit. Millions of christians manage to go about their day without doing an ounce of witnessing and/or preaching. You should try it some time.(reply to this comment)

From God_is_mercy Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 20:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Forgive him lord for he knows not what he does.....(reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 23:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I curse thee in Geraldine's name.. amen.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 23:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Not cool! Unless you're being cruxified, that is. (I can help with that).(reply to this comment)

From Lord Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 22:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I just consulted with Neezy, and it seems he does know what he's doing. BTW, just to be respectful unto me, could you capitalize "Lord" and then add a comma afterwards?(reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 23:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Shut the fuck up God and make me a coffee.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, February 26, 2005, 19:59 (Agree/Disagree?) "Fuck you christians are boring dead-shits. " By grouping all Christians into one category, are you not exchanging one set of prejudices (TF's) for another set?(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 20:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Inasmuch as you may be correct, I dare you to name a Christian who's much fun at all...(reply to this comment)

From neez Sunday, February 27, 2005, 00:07 (Agree/Disagree?) You're right Wolf. Allow me to reiterate. Fuck Webel, whatever10:37, and highonhigh are boring deadshits!(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Sunday, February 27, 2005, 14:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Webel is certainly NOT boring, the bible is though. (reply to this comment)

from highonhigh Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 16:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Welcome to Moving On -- The website created by and for young adults with parents who joined the religious organization The Family / Children of God. Pull up a chair and stay awhile -- Browse, read, rant, write, whatever except about Christianity. If you are a Christian you are not welcome. (reply to this comment)

From Sunday, February 27, 2005, 16:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Now you just sound like the people on myDelusion.com! Is missing the point pathological for you?(reply to this comment)

from whatever1037 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 23:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Great article. My thoughts exactly. And remember, no matter what anyone says, does or thinks, true christians will always have the way, the truth, and the life, and in the bitter thats the only thing that matters. (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 14:43 (Agree/Disagree?) I see. So, no matter what logic, reason, proof or evidence is presented, true Christians will always claim to have the only right answer and failing that, they are the only ones with immediate and exclusive access to a super-duper Answer Man. You're beginning to sound very elitist, Whatever1037. Have you noticed?(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 14:45 (Agree/Disagree?) That should have read: "You're beginning to sound very much like an elitist, Whatever1037."(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 20:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Christianity it's not only elitist but exclusive. If you dont understand, don't even bother, because it's not for everyone. It says "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you" It is not about our choice but His choice. People that needs proof, evidence, logic, reason are not ment to be christians so no matter how much explanation they get they have eyes that don't see & ears that don't listen because that is the way it's suposed to be... Not for everyone (reply to this comment)

From No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 23:06 (Agree/Disagree?) So you saying that when people fail to become Christian, and as a result don't get to go to Heaven, its because Jesus decided not to choose them?(reply to this comment)

From God_is_mercy Wednesday, June 22, 2005, 20:52 (Agree/Disagree?) what u say is not the truth. God is for everyone. It sadens me to see comments like this. you r lost.(reply to this comment)

From sassy Thursday, March 03, 2005, 11:30 (Agree/Disagree?) So its its not our chioce but his chice why the hell must you preach???? think on that for a while ok? (reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 17:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Since when is christianity not for everybody? I think you better go have a conversation with St. Paul. (St. Peter might agree with you though). Jesus litteraly chose his closest followers, and not the other way around. Another example of a christian taking what was litteral as interpretive. Don't tell me, you must believe the world was made in six days huh?(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Thursday, February 24, 2005, 20:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I tell you what I believe, I believe that this site will be a better one if we could moved on to a higher level of respect & understanding between Christians & the non Christians. We should respect each other for the things we do have in common which is our past. We left the sic cult, we had similar experinces in the way we grew up. Most of us had a real hard time during our growing up in TF. we had to fill up pages of superwork books in Argentina others in France we had to wash dishes & clean toillets in different parts of the world but always the same way. We read the same life with grandpa stories. So If after living some decided to become atheist, budist, hinduist, pagan, comunist, or remain a christian it is up to each idividual & none should be mocking each other for what we believe. Unfortunaly maybe because of the familiarity of our past there is very little respect in the way we bring up our opinions. But I guess what can we expect. (reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Friday, February 25, 2005, 12:49 (Agree/Disagree?) This site? Superworkbooks? Grandpa stories? Is that the best you've got? And what's it got to do with the point YOU brought up? If you feel you're being mocked I suggest you look at your posts, you might find the reason for that there.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, February 26, 2005, 20:01 (Agree/Disagree?) You’re not the brightest bulb on the tree, are you...(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Sunday, February 27, 2005, 16:00 (Agree/Disagree?) This from someone who believes that it only took six days to make the universe and that virgins can have babys! You must be really well aquainted with dim bulbs. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Sunday, February 27, 2005, 19:35 (Agree/Disagree?) What makes you think I believe in either 6 day creation or virgin birth? I respect the teachings of Jesus, but I recognize that much of the Bible is allegory and much of the New Testament has been re-written over the last two centuries, so knowing what was written by the original authors and what wasn’t (and who the original authors were, for that matter) is virtually impossible.(reply to this comment)

From neez Sunday, February 27, 2005, 00:11 (Agree/Disagree?) So bulbs grow on trees now?(reply to this comment)

From ErikMagnusLehnsher Sunday, February 27, 2005, 08:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I would guess it's probably a reference to those trees that people decorate with lights during December to celebrate a certain religious holiday.(reply to this comment)

From neez Sunday, February 27, 2005, 19:44 (Agree/Disagree?) When someone says bulb do you immediately think of: a) Lights on a christmas tree. b) A common everyday light-bulb. The only 'not very clever' joke I've heard involving lightbulbs is "he's not the brightest bulb in the store". Which is were one usualy sees lots of light bulbs of varying brightness. I guess there could be plenty of(dumb) hybrids out there so if I'm wrong, feel free to enlighten me. And btw most christmas traditions came from pagan/wicca rituals which(like so many other's) were taken by christians and heavily modified for their own interests. Luckily over the years people got bored of doing religous type things like caroling and staring at a manger scene for hours. And now more and more people are getting back to the original ideas behind christmas. Getting drunk, stoned, and laid.(reply to this comment)

From Monday, February 28, 2005, 09:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Bulbs, enlighten...- Was the pun intended?(reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 15:56 (Agree/Disagree?) You decide.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Sunday, February 27, 2005, 11:07 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd rather it were a nonsense joke. Those are always fun. Eg: A man and a woman are seated next to each other on an airplane. The man keeps telling the woman to shut up her barking dog, and the woman, in turn, is fed up with the man's cigar smoke. The man threatens to throw the dog out the window, and the woman counters with a threat to do the same to the man's cigar. They finally make good on their respective threats. What do they see when they land? A dog with a brick in its mouth! Hilarious, isn't it? Others include: Two nuns in a bath. One says "Pass the soap", and the other says "What am I, a radio?" Man goes up to other man and says "Give me a bite of your apple". First man says "It's not a pear, it's a banana." Two polar bears are sitting on an iceberg. One falls in the water, the other turns to him and says "bye bye radio!" A man walks into a bar with a tortoise on his head. He asks for some cheese. The bartender says "but this is a bar", so the man says "that's OK, the tortoise is paying". (Some of this cribbed from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_original_bad_jokes_and_other_deleted_nonsense) (reply to this comment)

From weegirlie Friday, February 25, 2005, 03:22 (Agree/Disagree?) It funny you should say that. Do you notice that it's always the Christians who tend to post the articles which start disputes about "God"? We atheists and agnostics tend to keep our beliefs about "religion" to ourselves thing until someone brings the subject up. If people start doing the whole "it's so sad people have lost their faith" crap we are naturally going to respond and inform you Christians that you are actually the illogical ones. If you kept your beliefs to yourself and just discussed "what we have in common" I don't imagine this topic would have been brought up. I have no problem with people being religious, I just hate it why they start preaching like they know something which I don't. So if you don't want us informing you that religion is a load of nonsense for weakminded (albeit sometimes very nice) people just don't bring the topic up. Simple!! Somehow I don't think you'll do us that favour though because religious people always seem to feel the need to cram their stupid beliefs down everyone else's throats. Perhaps you need to feel justified in believing in a bunch of fables so you try to get as many people to be as dilluded as you are to make you feel better. I really don't know.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, February 26, 2005, 19:57 (Agree/Disagree?) "Religious people always seem to feel the need to cram their stupid beliefs down everyone else's throats." By grouping all "religious" people into one category, are you not exchanging one set of prejudices (TF's) for another set (against religious people)?(reply to this comment)

From weegirlie Monday, February 28, 2005, 02:16 (Agree/Disagree?) No I don't think I am. Truely religious people (and I was specifically talking about Christians here) believe that they are expected by their "god" to try to convert other people and therefore do "always seem to feel the need to cram their stupid beliefs down everyone else's throats". I wasn't referring to the people who have a vague belief that God and Jesus exist, but it doesn't really mean that much in their day to day lives and they couldn't care less whether other people believe or not. And if you notice I wasn't generalising that they are "ignorant" or "horrible people" as I'm fully aware that there are Christians who are perfectly nice. The only thing I don't like about these "perfectly nice" Christians is their need to preach at everyone, which kinda ruins things.(reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Thursday, February 24, 2005, 09:48 (Agree/Disagree?) "It is not about our choice but His choice." this then suggests that you as true christians do not have free choice. in other words, you are robots with wind-ups in your backs, programmed to walk in a nazi-esque formation toward your god & say "i love you. i love you. i love you." i thought you guys were big on saying that god wants us to love him out of free will NOT because we're forced to do it. once again, i was wrong... & so was that Hope of the Future. and please, clearly define who "he" is, & what "his choice" is. what methods do you use to "rightly divide the word of truth." do you set out "fleeces?" or, like someone else mentioned, do you merely follow whoever claims to have a direct line to god? how do you know they do?(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Thursday, February 24, 2005, 21:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Cosmicblip the faith I have now is my own, I bring it up as an opinion not as a ' this is the way everyone should believe '. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I am not following any one but what I learn from what I read in there. I dont know if you remember the verse about the Word of God being something insane and hallucination for some people but for others is the Power of God. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Thursday, February 24, 2005, 10:25 (Agree/Disagree?) I think that the entire concept of God is too big for us to comprehend. We don't know what our entire capabilities are in our brains and neither do we know what God's power. He chose some people from the foundation of the world to have the ability to "see" him, in the sense that we see him in our world and in our lives. It is seeing with the eyes of belief not in the literal sense. I see God in everything in my life and I include him and thank him for everything he has given me. Luk 8:10 - And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Faith and the ability to believe are a gift, God's gifts are without repentance and it's upto us to either reject it or embrace it (we do have a choice to accept the gift of Faith). Mt 5:3/8 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. and Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Some people (such as myself) have reached spiritual bankruptcy and it was there where they found their God and their destiny, I was poor in spirit and it was when I let go of all sceptical and impure thoughts from my heart and that was when I "saw" God. Not in the literal sense, but in the spiritual sense, I saw him with the eyes of my heart, I was able to forgive all those who hurt me and love once again. I know that God is going to deal with all those who have abused us and hurt us and his judgements will be far more severe than anything any of us could dish out! Lets face it those sick perverts that stumbled us and stole our childlike innocence and faith - if religion hadn't been used to screw up our lives and abuse us with doctrines of "love" and we saw an example of kindness, fairness and right living, believing in God and coming to terms with faith in something wouldn't be half as hard!(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, February 25, 2005, 04:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, if you can't comprehend it, why do you buy into a franchise of it?(reply to this comment)

From openmind Thursday, February 24, 2005, 11:57 (Agree/Disagree?) webel, if you wish, you can put your trust in God to 'deal with' all those who have abused us. But the only way to make anything happen in this world is to do it yourself. The only way I made anything happen was on my own accord. Watching and waiting for 'God' to do anything just doesn't work. The day 'God' buys me a brand new lexus, a Porsche Carrera, a vacation home in the Bahamas, and whatever else I want, that my dear is the day I will believe in his existence. If you want to see 'the judgement of God' passed onto the abusers in TheFamily, it's best to make it happen yourself.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Thursday, February 24, 2005, 15:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, I do trust that those people are going to pay for what they've done, if not in this life, certainly in the next. I have learned that sometimes prayers get answered immediately and others sometimes just take a little longer, sometimes prayers are not answered at all, some prayers are just plain wrong - as it says in the Psalms if I have iniquity in my heart God will not hear me. There are some things that have happened to me that have been truly amazing, but I would only share them with people if I thought that they would be a)respectful and b)they were genuinely interested in what God has done for me. Really, and truly some things are just too precious to be share. What I feel in my heart for God is my biggest treasure in this life, and will also be in the next - I hope that one day you will get to drive the car of your dreams and go on a lovely vacation to the Bahamas, but these things are temporary, the car will get old, the holiday will end - and then what? there is only one thing that you can take with you in this life and that is how you lived it and who you lived it for.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 25, 2005, 09:44 (Agree/Disagree?) What about all those "answered prayers" of people with iniquity in their heart? Like the serial rapist who won the loto? Wouldn't it be more useful to make a law saying anyone who has been in prison for such and such a crime should not e eligale to recieve lottery payouts, like under 16's? But the most important thing is what amounts to "Iniquity" I understand iniquity as -having no faith in God. So that when nice things happen to people like myself, I don't thank god. (reply to this comment)

From openmind Thursday, February 24, 2005, 21:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Although there may not be many things to take with you after you're gone from this life, there is much that you can leave behind. And that is what will last. Look at the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Kennedys, etc. They've left behind financial empires for their future generations, they also left behind foundations for the underprivileged, scholarships for the poor, etc. What they've created has and continues to outlive them. This is more real than believing that heaven will reward you for how you lived your life and who you lived it for. I live my life for myself first, my family second, and lastly any other selected parties. For if one doesn't live for themselves they cannot properly help someone else.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 11:46 (Agree/Disagree?) You start with a contradiction. You say "I think that the entire concept of God is too big for us to comprehend. We don't know what our entire capabilities are in our brains and neither do we know what God's power."- First God is too big for you to comprehend, then you mention the untapped potential of your own brain. Do you see the fallacy? Educate your brain and the rest falls in place. The concept of God is not that big or that hard to understand once you step out of the mindset that accepts nothing but what is fed by it's immediate religious superior. Once you take a look at the history of the religion, and place it's major events within their contemporary political climates, it's easy to see the development of the tradition. There was a time when it required no faith at all to accept what the church told you, religion was a secular matter. You had the certainty that if you failed to believe you would be burned. (Priests were not allowed to shed blood for the salvation of the soul, Christ did it for you, so fire was employed instead). Now religion has taken a mystical turn in western conciousness, no longer do we equate religion with government (actually, we'll get back to that when Bush is gone) so now belief in christianity (not surprisingly) takes truckloads of strong/fragile faith to swallow. I love how you break into the Sermon on the Mount, and then apply it to your own time in a non-literal sence. Jesus was speaking to a multitude of poor, destitute galileans. Thousands of them, a serious political force. And when he spoke of the kingdom of heaven it was a concept that Jews were very familiar with at the time. Kingdom is word thrown around without much weight nowadays. But back then it really meant something. Take the whole of Jesus' career in it's correct context and you'll find that the romans were very justified in executing the purported king of the Jews for sedition. I'm surprised at how many supposed christians feel so free to twist Jesus' words any way they like to make them fit a situation. If you truly believed in Jesus you would have a bit more respect for his words I think. If you're so christian study your Bible man! Jesus was the son (of the house) of David. This gave him legitimacy in his claim for the throne of Israel. This was a challenge to the Satrap king Herod who was not even Jewish. Another thing, if it is as you probably believe and Herod Sr. did kill all those babys. Don't you think that kind of action would be a provocation for an uprising? Then consider, Herod doesn't even feel comfortable enough to judge Jesus as a matter of course, and has to send him to the roman governor. This from the man who insigated genocide? Trying to reclaim a throne was a crime against Rome, not the few jelous Jews who stood to lose power as the only non-roman appointed governance in Judea. Oh and BTW, Jesus was a Jew. And so am I. Let's be a little less anti-semetic when it comes to what the old testament's role was to these ancient people, oky doky? I'm refering to your relegation of the Torah to a role of simply supporting chrisianity, and your continuous trivializing of the Jewish people by minimizing their role in Jesus' performance. I know it's hard to let it go, and most of the time people who grew up the way we did don't even realize how hateful TF is of Jews. Thanks and good luck.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Thursday, February 24, 2005, 15:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Excuse me but where am I slating Jewish people? I am not anti-semitic on the contrary I have absolute respect for the Jewish people's race and religion, and by the way, I too have Jewish blood! so don't accuse me of being racist. I am not using Jesus' words to fit my own purposes. Yes he was talking to people on the mount but his words of wisdom and comfort apply to christians just as much today as they did before, that is the whole basis of what Christians believe! (whether you like it or not) If we were to take the stance which you are taking here, are you saying that all religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Judaism should just throw away their ancient writings because it was written to people in ancient times?! what a crock! I am aware of the fact that Jesus was Jewish - The Hebrews were (and still are) God's chosen people, but the goyim have accepted Christ as their Messiah as have some Jewish people also oky doky? Matthew 12:17-21 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 16:46 (Agree/Disagree?) When did you (slate? Was it slate? ok then.) When you asserted that the Old Testament was simply there to pave the way for your Jesus. And when I say your comment is antisemetic I mean just that, the prejudice tainting your remarks is cultural and specific to Judaism so you can put the race card back in your sleave. Have you heard of Rosenburg? He was Jewish, but that didn't stop him from participating in the creation of the Final Solution. Hittler was part Jewish as well. Simply becasue you're Jewish doesn't meant you can't be antisemetic. Insulting the jewish people by claiming the everything they went through before christ was a preparation for your religion, is antisemetic weather you recognize it or not! And foolish at that. Weather you like it or not. You want to know what a Crock is my dear Webel? A supposed christian using Islam, Hinduism, AND Judaism to defend his notions on christianity. When has christianity shown repect for those religions? According to your religion that is exactly what the adherents of those religions are supposed to do, abandon them in favor of yours. You know who was very gentile? The Nazis. They were very christian too. I'm not claiming you have any notions akin to the Nazis, just a common religion. I think you better look a little closer. The Goyim as a whole have not accepted this one of many messiahs. As far as the Jews who have, well, there's nothing new about that. Yaweh has been on the brink of destroying the Jewish people countless times for wandering off on an idolotrous tangent like christianity. But you wouldn't know that by reading Mathew's account of it. And finally Webel, yes, I do like it. I love it! I love that there are still a few people around to show me that naivetee and ignorance are still out there. And that whatever crazy notions I can concoct will never be a fraction as far fetched as the Evangelic gibberish you live your life by. And just cause you throw a few tired verses into your ramblings doesn't make it mean a thing. First you missinterpret christ, then you quote Mathew where it doesn't apply (as he speaks of the Torah no less). Webel when I see how blissful you are, I must conclude that ignorance is the cause. Oky doky? (reply to this comment)

From Webel Thursday, February 24, 2005, 17:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I am not using those other religions to "defend my notion" on Christianity, the point I was making was that if Christ was only talking to the Jewish people of that time, and if ancient writings are only meant for the era that they were written, then we might as well throw them ALL away. I believe the sermon on the Mount applies today just as much as it did way back then. Ok, so just because a person has Jewish blood doesn't necessarily mean they aren't anti semitic BUT I was talking about myself not about other people. I had my first passover 3 years ago and it was a wonderful, spritual experience for me. My verses may not mean anything to you, but they mean something to me - I have quoted the Bible because that is what I believe. I am so glad that you can see that I am blissful because I am! you imply that I am ignorant, frankly I couldn't care less what you think.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 18:09 (Agree/Disagree?) But you did use them to make your point, no point in being self contradictory. And you do believe they should ALL be thrown away, or your not really a christian. And YES you were speaking of other people when you make statements that involve an entire peoples traditions. Surely even your religion hasn't made you THAT dim to where you can't see that! Since your verses mean sooooo much to you, just go ahead and quote them to yourself! Leave me out of it. It's painfully obvious that you could care a smidgen less about what I think or you would not have responded. Moron.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 17:09 (Agree/Disagree?) P.S. Here is where you get offensive to the Jews. Webel says: "The purpose of the Old Testament was to prepare a people for the coming of the Messiah. God was not going to send his only son to a people that had no morals, no clean habits and worshipped idols." BTW the Jewish people have been traditionally and ritually some of the cleanest people since antiquity, something they probably got from the egyptians. Also the jewish people have repudiated idols from the begining, and barring a few aberations have done so all along. Don't even get me started on the morals of christians, there are precious few mother Teresas around to balance the scales when it comes christians and morality! One thing christianity is rife with however is hypocrites.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Thursday, February 24, 2005, 18:02 (Agree/Disagree?) What I said was that they had to be purged as a people from serving idols, before the ten Commandments were given there were no ordinances in place, the book of the law and the traditions that still are practiced today was given by the God of the Israelites.(reply to this comment)

From just interrested Friday, February 25, 2005, 08:40 (Agree/Disagree?) What was so evil about serving idols? Was it because there was too many and people didn't know how to choose? Because that sounds like religion now, look at them all, I'd be more impressed if all the christian religions(or the monolithic) ones, came together and actually agreed they each served the same God and stopped fighting and causing so many divisions, wars and hate.( look at the catholic church now, splitting because half feel they can no longer deny gays, woman and children equal rights. That means not veiwing them with bible coloured glasses on(bible predjudice). The other half stick firm in their belief that homosexuals are the greatist sin in the world. So back to the question, but can you answer it without using a verse? Can you take a personal postion without relying on the bible to back you up. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, February 24, 2005, 18:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Uh, guess again... Weren't the Israelites in the very act of worshiping an Idol when Moses came down the mountain with the Ten Commandments? Crack open your Bible dude! Or don't, it's probably better that way.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 18:25 (Agree/Disagree?) You have obviously never heard of the Oral Talmudic traditions. These come from the time of Abraham, long before the Ten commandments. In fact, they play quite a strong role in the Hellenizing of Christianity. (seeing that ST.Paul drew his concept of the abolition of the Levite priesthood from the superiority of Melchizedek the King priest and drew his parellel with christ there, thus allowing for christs elevation to godhood and making christianity accesible to the gentiles). http://www.donmeh-west.com/melchi.shtml a different view of it:http://www.donmeh-west.com/melchi.shtml (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, February 24, 2005, 12:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Well done! I would love to hear what you think about that Jesus themed Zombie flick they call "The Passion of the Christ."(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 10:46 (Agree/Disagree?) "The Passion of the Jew" was far superior.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Thursday, February 24, 2005, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) if you're asking me I wouldn't know. I didn't bother watching it. (though it's been on my shelf for months).(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 25, 2005, 06:43 (Agree/Disagree?) To feed their sado/masachistic minds.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Thursday, February 24, 2005, 11:14 (Agree/Disagree?) "We don't know what our entire capabilities are in our brains and neither do we know what God's power [is]." What happens then, if when science has "decoded" the functions of the brain it is discovered that what we thought was God and God's power is actually just an advanced function of the brain? Many of the recent discoveries in the fields of science and biology have blown past superstitions and theories to shreds. If superstitions can be so easily disproved, what makes the concept of God immune from being disproved? Isn't it, after all, one big elaborate superstition? If wonderful feelings are what prove to you that God exists, then what about those people who have the same wonderful feelings when they realize that God doesn't exist?(reply to this comment)

From Webel Thursday, February 24, 2005, 15:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, I wish them a full and happy life - that decision is upto them. I can vouch for that belief in God brings about wonderful feelings, in fact I am sure it enhances brain activity! after all it's the smart thing to do in the Bible says in two places how clever people are that say God doesn't exist Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good and Psalm 53:1 -The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. (I am not insulting anyone in particular here, so don't take it personally but that is what the Bible says and I happen to believe it.)(reply to this comment)

From Question Friday, February 25, 2005, 08:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Have you found a non christian who you believe goes against that verse? "corrupt, done abominable works, (actually, I didn't vacum the stairs properly hmm!) there is none that doeth good" The bible calls non-christians fools and such, you use the bible in place of your own mind and reasoning skills, so you by default you think that too/yourself. As do all christians! (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Thursday, February 24, 2005, 22:33 (Agree/Disagree?) So as long as I claim that there is a God, be it Vishnu, Krishna, Allah, Buddah or even myself, I am no fool. Correct? There are many philosophers who say, in effect, "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is a God.'" What give's the Bible's authors opinion more credence over them? Remember, there was a time when those who said the earth was round were called fools as well.(reply to this comment)

From loch Thursday, February 24, 2005, 06:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Which as why, at any given moment, anyone who is on a power trip can babble off some nonsense, call it the word of God, and you will believe it with your blind faith. Talk about the blind leading the blind. Or, the insane leading the incredibly naieve. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, February 24, 2005, 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I recently read Jon Krakauer's excellent book "Under the Banner of Heaven: a Story of Violent Faith." In the intro to chapter 4, Krakauer quotes from Shakespeare's "Richard III": "But then I sigh and, with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil; And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stol'n forth of Holy Writ, And seem a saint when most I play the Devil."(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, February 24, 2005, 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I recently read Jon Krakauer's excellent book "Under the Banner of Heaven: a Story of Violent Faith." In the intro to chapter 4, Krakauer quotes from Shakespeare's "Richard III": "But then I sigh and, with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil; And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stol'n forth of Holy Writ, And seem a saint when most I play the Devil."(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 22:23 (Agree/Disagree?) So how does this make a Christian any different than a Jew (as far as elitism is concerned)? Both believe they are God's chosen people. According to either religion, they are the only right one. What authority or third party has the final say on who's God is the right one? I used to be a Christian and can conclude that you are totally right in saying that it is not for everyone. It is only for those who have become tired of searching and are comfortable with polarized beliefs. I doubt I will ever fit into that category again.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 09:54 (Agree/Disagree?) "in the bitter [sic] thats[sic] the only thing that matters" You got one thing right -- it will be bitter.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 07:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Please, Please, PLEASE!!!! How do you know that, Whatever1037? Please explain for those of us who cannot hallucinate at will.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 09:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Well now that you asked. 2He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times. 4A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it. And he left them, and departed.(reply to this comment)

From Fish Thursday, February 24, 2005, 05:36 (Agree/Disagree?) You again? And you misquoted it to boot? (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Thursday, February 24, 2005, 04:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Is that all you ever read? Red sky at night; sailors' delight. Red sky in morning: sailors' warning. Seriously, your babble is only a little less helpful than nursery rhymes. Or is it possible that you are incapable of logical discussion? PLEASE, MONGO, PROVE ME WRONG!! (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, February 24, 2005, 17:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Can you prove me wrong ? I've talked about proof before and like I said there's a great lack of it on both sides. Yours and mine. I think the question is whats the diference ? Acording to what I've read I made you a chart that goes like this : Religions awaiting a Messaih also known as Anti-Jesus Islam Hinduism Buddhism Sikhism Spiritism Judaism Baha'i Jainism Neo-Paganism Unitarian-Universalism Rastafarianism Scientology Some of the very few New Age Religions Keys of Enoch - J.J.Hurtag Adelphi Ananda Anthroposophy - Rudolf Steiner Arcane School - Alice Bailey Hare Krisna Lucis Trust Sufi Moslems Kabbalah The Tara Center - Lord Maitreya The Temple of Set Seth Unification Church - Rev. Sun Myung Moon Worldwide Church of God - Herbert Armstrong Organizations Pushing for a New World Order The Federal Reserve The United Nations International Monetary Fund The Paris Club Illuminati Skull and Bones International Affairs Rockefeller Foundation Rothschilds And many more.. People who want nothing to do with this world or a One world Government for that matter and are not going to get an Id Chip or Whatever you wanna call it and have nothing to do with "New Age Messiahs" their doctrines or practices. Just a few Bible beliving Christians How does the sky look from where you're standing ? (reply to this comment)

From Jedran Saturday, February 26, 2005, 01:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually Bahai's believe their Messiah already came and went.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Sunday, February 27, 2005, 07:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes but you're missing the point. Bah'u'll'h announced to the few remaining followers of the Bab that He was the chosen Manifestation of God for this age. He called upon people to UNITE; He said that only in ONE common FAITH and one ORDER (World Order) could the world find an enduring PEACE. And thats my point.(reply to this comment)

From Sunday, February 27, 2005, 16:13 (Agree/Disagree?) The problem with christians is that their Jesus came "...to bring a sword", and that's why they can't stop poking at people.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, February 25, 2005, 04:32 (Agree/Disagree?) The difference is - MORON! - I don't at any time claim to know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the exact definition of ultimate truth is! YOU HAVE JUST EFFECTIVELY DISPROVED YOUR OWN ARGUMENT THROUGH YOUR ADMISSION! I asked you to evidenciate your claims- You provide words! The same kind of words that everyone else uses. There is no proof in words, yet you throw them around as if they're the carriers of divine power, and expect me to bow down in reverence. Then when I don't oblige, you claim I can't argue with you because I can't prove you wrong!? I don't need proof to ask questions, IDIOT! But you need proof to provide concrete answers. WHAT THE FUCK IS THE LIST ABOUT? Do you have a persecution complex or something? Are you trying to wind me up? Do you genuinely think all these people are all gonna bannd together in a world-wide conspiracy, just to kick YOUR scrawny arse? You are trapped in the never-ending cycle of you own self- justified logic! The less reason you have to believe in your assertions, the more convinced you are that someone is trying to dissuade you of the correctness of your perspective. THE SKY IS NO CLOSER TO ME NOW THAN IT WAS YESTERDAY! SO YOU JUST KEEP DREAMING THAT ONE DAY YOU'RE GONNA COME OUT OF THE SKY ON A WHITE HORSE TO JUDGE MY ANGRY NIHILIST ASS!(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Friday, February 25, 2005, 09:41 (Agree/Disagree?) YOU HAVE JUST EFFECTIVELY DISPROVED YOUR OWN ARGUMENT THROUGH YOUR ADMISSION! I wasnt arguing and the comment wasnt even made out to you! I'm simply giving you my perspective and answering your questions. If you cant hallucinate at will you are most definitely taking something cause I have no idea what you're talking about. "expect me to bow down in reverence" "you claim I can't argue with you because I can't prove you wrong!? " Dude seriously. Arguing about God isnt going to get us anywhere. There's no proof cause what I call proof you call maddness and you dont even understand what it means when I say "God". WHAT THE FUCK IS THE LIST ABOUT? I'll spell it out for you okay. The list gives you my perspective of where the world is headed. We can most definitly argue about that. Can you deny or disprove a New World Order ? How about the Id Chip ? There is on the other hand overwelming proof about these two in particular. So if you can honestly say that what goes on in this world brings to your life a clear sky without any clouds then go and have yourself a good time. (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Monday, February 28, 2005, 07:57 (Agree/Disagree?) The possibility of bionic ID technology DOES NOT prove the bible to be true. in fact, you don't even know that the book of revelation is refering to said technology, that's just an interesting theory. You want me to believe it as fact, which I resent. You essentially believe that the possibility that existant variables that may partially concur with your theory should be taken as evidence that your entire theory is correct. Frankly, that assumption is insulting. Any number of conspiracy theories exist or have existed at any time in human written history, and NONE of them prove the validity of Christianity. This is not merely applicable to your stupid list, but that's about as far as you ever seem to get in the way of intelligible argument. the rest of your verbatim consists of quoting someone else's words as if they were not mere words, but infallible proof of argument. What you believe is unimportant to me, I can accept anyone's anyone's position as merely their position. But what you appear INCAPABLE of doing is extending the same courtesy to me or to anyone else in this forum. Scripture is just verbatim, and what it says may be descriptive of any number of variant factors. It can, like any other written word, tell us a lot about the author, the publisher, and even the intended audience. WHAT IT DOES NOT DO, I have been trying to get through your thick skull for months now, is that it is NOT necessarily descriptive of God's mind or will, nor is it an infallible moral standard. It is just words, like the words that come out of my mouth or yours. I might be more tolerant of you and you annoying babble if perhaps you would place so much gravity on your quoted verbatim, but be so dismissive of other ideologies and doctrines. I mean, how do you know that christianity is right and buddhism is wrong, and how do you prove it? And now you're gonna quote more scripture, aren't you? I am not annoyed with you because you're a Christian- and the same extends to Webel, Highonhigh,etc. ; I'm annoyed cause you think I'm wrong because I'm not. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 07:14 (Agree/Disagree?) What you still dont understand is that like I said "If there's no proof then lets not fight about it". And I think you misread my post. Because contrary to what you're saying I clearly posted "If The New World Order and the ID brings to your life a clear sky without any clouds then go and have yourself a good time" Having said that I dont understand comments like "You want me to believe it as fact, which I resent" and "Frankly, that assumption is insulting " What assumption ? "But what you appear INCAPABLE of doing is extending the same courtesy to me or to anyone else in this forum" Do you want me to wish you good luck too ? (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 05:42 (Agree/Disagree?) What assumption? WHAT ASSUMPTION!?? The assumption that you know what the truth is! The assumtion that you 'have the way, the truth and the life' - to quote you. You cannot make assumptions that glaring and then say that you do not wish them to be contested because they cannot be proven. That assumption is the basis of your entire argument, and all your subsidiary trails of opinion. This we have contested, and this you wish to ignore, and yet without being willing to contest your position or allow it to be challenged, you continue to assert it in this forum. That is what is annoying me. You seem to miss the point of everyone's disputes of your dialogue, including mine. I would not be so aggravated had you ever stated beforehand that you believe what you believe because of A), B) & C) and accepted that your position is flawed, and then entered into workable, intelligent debate regarding it. You make huge assumptions as to the nature of said 'New World Order' as if your opinion is based upon fact, rather than your further assumptions. Like I said, the existence of contradictory ideologies or doctrines, whether political, philosophical, religious or otherwise DOES NOT necessarily allude to the existence of a new world order. Furthermore, your perspective on these contradictory factions - as exemplified by you list - demonstrates that you see all of said factions as deviant from an indisputable moral or political standard, as defined by YOUR political/religious views. That by itself is offensive.That is what I find insulting. Do you understand now? I am not holding my breath! (reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 10:01 (Agree/Disagree?) If you keep wishing for cloudless skies you might wind up real thirsty one day.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Friday, February 25, 2005, 12:43 (Agree/Disagree?) You make these giant lists of religions but it's pointless. The ancient Babylonians had five thousands gods, present day India still does and many of them are at odds with each other! It proves nothing. Or at best it proves that the world consiousness is most definitely NOT unified. (though it should be! I say bring on a planetary government. We're living at the edge of space colonization and it would only help us.) And what about the ID chip? Overwhelming proof of what exactly? I have one in my dog, and if my dog gets lost I can get him back. Ooooh wait a second, maybe my dog is a follower of the Anti-christ! Maybe my dog goes: "All hail to our great leader" when I'm not looking. He lifts his little paw and salutes the devil... Jesus, what if he turnes my family in? I guess they'll just have to call fire down from heaven to burn my puppy. I think I'm going to cry... The Bible may mention marks, but doesn't mention anything that would conclusively amount to electronic chips. Leave your Burgisms at home please, his teachings are not biblical, and they are certainly NOT welcome here.(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Friday, February 25, 2005, 12:55 (Agree/Disagree?) P.S. What the hell are you doing on a computer? They are full of evil microchips.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 25, 2005, 12:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, lets look at the way the worlds going shall we? religion is about division, subjication and elitiam not inclusion or learning. So of course something that was predicted many years ago can come true. It's about science, and the chip is just one of them. Flight was predicted in the same vein, because it made sense, But wasn't utilised for many years. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Saturday, February 26, 2005, 00:46 (Agree/Disagree?) YES, lets look at the way the worlds going shall we? religion is about division, subjication and elitiam not inclusion or learning. SO OF COURSE SOMETHING THAT WAS PREDICTED MANY YEARS AGO CAN COME TRUE. THE SKY IS NO CLOSER TO ME NOW THAN IT WAS YESTERDAY! SO YOU JUST KEEP DREAMING THAT ONE DAY YOU'RE GONNA COME OUT OF THE SKY ON A WHITE HORSE TO JUDGE MY ANGRY NIHILIST ASS! So you're saying I'm going to kick Baxters arse. Well thats an intresting thought put I think I'll pass. Thanks anyway.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Monday, February 28, 2005, 08:00 (Agree/Disagree?) You couldn't kick my ass if you tried. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 07:45 (Agree/Disagree?) And you couldn't either(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 05:30 (Agree/Disagree?) No, true; I am not a fakir and my legs do not extend far enough back to kick my own ass.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, February 24, 2005, 17:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I won't go into your whole list there, but Buddhists are not waiting for any Messiah. Buddhism seeks enlightenment. And I doubt they are anti Jesus. Do some research before you start posting such ignorance! http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/holte/archives/000308.html http://www.nbaa.tv/IntroBook/ch2.html another interesting link (not on buddhism) http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/melchiz.htm(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Friday, February 25, 2005, 09:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Again you have well corrected me. Buddhists arent waiting for a messiah they already have one. I'm most sure that you know who the Dalai Lama is. But for those dont, Dalai also known as "His Holiness" is belived by Buddhists to be the Incarnation of Master Buddha himself. Among his goals are: One World Religion and World Peace. Need I say more ?(reply to this comment)

From Buddhists have a Messiah?? Sunday, February 27, 2005, 08:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Dude, they don't even believe in a deity. Their status as a “religion” is even debatable. They believe in compassion and world peace, which are NOT the same as world domination. How can "peace" be strictly a religious concept? It's humanitarian, not religious: one can have compassion and desire peace without having even one religious conviction. Further, you are using "Messiah" as a loaded term by appropriating meanings that are not entirely logical. It is specifically designated as a Jewish/Christian concept. It is intellectually sloppy to mobilize a very specific term to describe all religious objectives. Bottom line, your terms are all mixed up; try fleshing them out in your head before coming here and confusing yourself. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Monday, February 28, 2005, 03:59 (Agree/Disagree?) They dont belive in a Deity the same way the Judeo-Christian religion does Yes thats true. But "His Holiness" is in fact a God or Diety incarnated here on earth. Or at least thats what they belive. Their status debatable ? The Dalai Lama says: " I always believe that it is much better to have a variety of RELIGIONS " How is that debatable ? He said it. Not me. Yes my terms where mixed up thanks for for helping me rearange them. Bottom line: Dalai : Not Messiah, Not Prophet. A GOD You happy now ? (reply to this comment)

From Nikisan Monday, February 28, 2005, 12:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Um, not happy yet. I have done some research for you, though, and it has made me much happier. “Buddha” (literally “Awakened One, Enlightened One) can refer to the historical Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, or to anyone who has attained the same depth and quality of enlightenment. According to Buddhist tradition, Siddhartha Gautama did not claim any divine status for himself nor did he assert that he was inspired by any god. He claimed to be a teacher (to guide those who chose to listen) rather than a personal savior. Tibetan Buddhists believe in reincarnation (which is not true of all schools of Buddhism, for which there are MANY), and that the Dalai Lama is a manifestation not of the historical Buddha, but of Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion. Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings who themselves are able to escape the cycle of death and rebirth but compassionately choose to remain here in this world to assist others in reaching nirvana or Buddhahood. The Dalai Lama is closer to the Pope by definition than to a Messiah or God. "I always believe that it is much better to have a variety of RELIGIONS" actually does not imply that Buddhism is a religion. Draw your van diagrams. It is an objective statement. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism)(reply to this comment)

From conan Monday, February 28, 2005, 14:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Dude, I think you finally cleared this topic up for our religiously challenged friends...or at least I hope they finally understand what Bhuddism is about. I've been too busy to sit down and write a difinitive discription of it but yours is better than any I think I would have done. Webel and all the rest of you anything-but-christianity-is-wrong believers, leave the Bhuddist 'religion' out of this debate shall we!(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 07:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Why dont you look at who brought it up then.(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 10:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I've done the looking and found that the first mention of Buddhism during this conversation was made by you whatever1037! (Remember the famous list?) This is not the first time you've forgotten who or what was posted here. There are pills you can take for short term memory loss. And classes to help with crittical thinking. But most joyous of all there are actually these places called chuches where people just LOVE to be preached at. Should be like Disneyland for you!(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Monday, February 28, 2005, 03:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Why dont you read the list again. Are you people blind or dilusional ? The list of religions are the ones coming together as one although you can belive in whatever you want. The list excludes chritians. The World Domination is being carried out by the other list of people. Get it ?(reply to this comment)

From Monday, February 28, 2005, 09:33 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.sedos.org/english/seshamani.htm(reply to this comment)

From Monday, February 28, 2005, 09:52 (Agree/Disagree?) There is only one religion at the moment that continues to actively "claim" entire countries and populations as it's own. (regardless of the general beleifs of the local population) Let's not forget what they did to countless cultures like the Aztecs! Did you know that there are only four books left in existence (known as the Codex) from that entire civilization? Is is coincidence that it's a christian coalition that's taken upon itself to police the globe? It's no surprise to me that most christians seem blind and downright obtuse, you have to be that way to get past the glaring contradictions and of that religion. Can you give me a Halleluja?(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 07:38 (Agree/Disagree?) A Christian coalition has taken upon itself to police the globe?????? I advise you to do some research as to who are our world leaders before you post such blasted IGNORANCE and BLASPHEMY. You can start by, like I posted earlier: The Federal Reserve The United Nations International Monetary Fund The Paris Club The Masons Illuminati Skull and Bones International Affairs Rockefeller Foundation Rothschilds (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 05:48 (Agree/Disagree?) The fact that you would even use the word BLASPHEMY is a demonstration of the degree to which you yourself are close-minded & ignorant, because it means you necessarily assume that your position alludes to something universally sacred. (reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 12:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Who supported the nazi's in the WW2? Who supported the native genocides in Australia and Canada? Who supports the latest onslaught on muslum peoples and the Iraqi war? Christians, christians, christians. Read Arthur Miller some time. May he rest in peace! (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 14:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Who did ? The Bible, The Catholic Church or World Governments. You're so naive its astounding and that after being part of TF. I take it that TF also has a christian leardership too right ? You're gonna make me puke.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 14:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Who did ? The Bible, The Catholic Church or World Governments. You're so naive its astounding and that after being part of TF. I take it that TF also has a christian leardership too right ? You're gonna make me puke.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 14:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Who did ? The Bible, The Catholic Church or World Governments. You're so naive its astounding and that after being part of TF. I take it that TF also has a christian leardership too right ? You're gonna make me puke.(reply to this comment)

From Blass Femur Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 09:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Did you rend your robes and dump ash on your head while you hysterically screamed Blasphemy! Blasphemy!? LOL. Come on, now you've just take this into the realm of the silly. Though it's interesting to see how you apply the term to those who simply see reality for what it is, sans the fantasy. BTW Bush [the leader of The United States] did call this war a crusade. Since you're so fond of lists here's one about the meaning of blasphemy, since it seems to have eluded you. blas·phe·my ( P ) Pronunciation Key (blsf-m) n. pl. blas·phe·mies A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity. The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God. An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct. [Middle English blasfemie, from Late Latin blasphmia, from Greek blasphmi, from blasphmein, to blaspheme . See blaspheme .] [Download or Buy Now] Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Main Entry: blas·phe·my Pronunciation: 'blas-f&-mE Function: noun Inflected Form: plural -mies : the crime of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God or a religion and its doctrines and writings and esp. God as perceived by Christianity and Christian doctrines and writings —see also Amendment I to the CONSTITUTION in the back matter NOTE: In many states, blasphemy statutes have been repealed as contrary to the First Amendment. Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc. blasphemy n 1: blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred) 2: blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; "desecration of the Holy Sabbath" [syn: profanation, desecration, sacrilege] Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University So I've taken a look and no, my utterance does not fall under the category of blasphemy. Though perhaps my habit of having fun on Saturdays might. -Well now here's a curious thing though. I seem to remember seeing a post of yours here on a sunday, (saturday too), so that would make you a blasphemer too according to princeton univeristy. You blaspheme every time you neglect to keep the Sabbath. I'd like to thank you. See, Jesus was considered by the leading religious authority of his day to be a blasphemer, and your clumsy accusation does little but place me in par with your lord. However I'll have to decline the compliment. It really just doesn't fit. ;o) I liken the christian majority to an inflated balloon, and the truth of logic to a sharp needle. It's not hard to see why there's always a big explosion everytime the two are combined.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 14:47 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd start to take in consideration what you said but... Bush ? Dude if you're gonna mention a Christian make sure 1 He's powerless 2 He's not wealthy 3 Whatever you do dont ever mention someone in politics You'll just be insulting your inteligence futher. Thank you(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 18:05 (Agree/Disagree?) And why should I censor the data? Why should I ignore what the christian leader of the christian world does? Because it makes you uncomfortable? So typical, excise anything that doesn't sit right. Bush is a perfect example of someone who mixes religion with politics (prays in the whitehouse everyday, and "follows god" when it comes to ruling). And why shouldn't we mention christians in politics? It's where they've done the most damage! (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 06:46 (Agree/Disagree?) What makes me uncomfortable is your ignorance. And YES IT DOESNT SIT RIGHT. If it doesnt for me that am a christian how can it sit for you ? Because you see what you want to see and hear what you wanna hear. Bush and every other Masonic Politician ARE THE PERFECT EXAMPLE FOR ME TO PROVE MY POINT AND I WILL. Why shouldn't we mention christians in politics and or royalty and Memebers of the Vatican ? I'll answer that below(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 08:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I think the best example of ignorance, of seeing only what you wish, of small mindedness and self contradiction have come from you. If I wished to spend even more of my time sifting through your vocalized garbage I might collect further illustrations and present them to you. So far I have shown the christian/religious phylosophy/dogma/practice to be flawed, you have shown a thrid rate skill at insulting myself and others when your comeback"well" has run dry. On the plus side, I have to thank you for not posting any more verses. I appreciate it. Listening to your "powerless book" is just tiresome and annoying. (reply to this comment)

From Where's the peace? Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Read and disscus; Can you not see even a little bit that the world and it's people are being destroyed and treated inhumanly due to the three main religions? It's fine to be a person of faith as long as you recognize that you inadvertantly or are used for/by the people in power to support/vote for the very things you say you detest. Just look at the last fiasco, who voted Bush? The christian minority! Where has been/is this uprising of "True" christians/muslums/Jews to halt this seeminly endless religious bloodbath and destruction of humanity and our earth? No where, because they are being controlled and manipulated by "blind faith" who seek solace in nice stories and an eternal life, with their god taking care of everything. Even our parents who some realised the coruptness of the religious leaders and the direction they were in, stepped of the train into cults, so not voting! Or voting for the religious right(Jehoviahs witnesses, mormons etc..) http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/1212-Ramsey.htm http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/ http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CK06Ag01.html http://www.twf.org/News/News2001.html (reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 10:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Evangelical and Koranic knowledge was said to be "amongst the most powerful 'soft' knowledge ever fashioned by humans but it lacks a set of critical values for knowledge-based sustainable development, such as democratic governance, fundamental freedoms, gender equality, a concern for nature and for the future and a focus on life before death - all necessary conditions of knowledge-enhanced sustainable development." This religiously-based knowledge, Mr Hamel writes, "under certain conditions, constitutes virtual owners' manual for one's life, especially for Africans-of-one-book, dwarfing development knowledge promoted by development organisations." The Addis Ababa-based scientist cites several examples from the African press to demonstrate his point: A group of Imams in northern Nigeria obstinately defends the idea that God commands all African men to grow beards in a certain shape and a certain length. A young Mauritanian girl agrees with genital mutilation and veiling "because God wants me to". A preacher in Sudan explains the particular way God wants wives to be beaten by their husbands. This was said to be the kind of "sterile knowledge bases that pervades and keeps big chunks of African Knowledge Societies from developing." There was a need to introduce development efforts aimed at deliberately "deleting, subtracting, abandoning or transforming obsolete or non-development knowledge," Mr Hamel urges. http://www.afrol.com/articles/15368(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 11:40 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.dldewey.com/columns/changef.htm A good rant http://home.austarnet.com.au/mickdenley/anarchy/articles/SuicidallyMurderousChristians.htm(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 07:29 (Agree/Disagree?) If you can blame any War, Conquest, Invasion, or Any Kind of Murder after the coming of Jesus on the Bible instead of on a WORLD GOVERNMENT I'd like to hear it. "Is is coincidence that it's a christian coalition that's taken upon itself to police the globe?" No its not. But actually, Satan has been the one using "Christianity" ever scince the Catholic Church to wager wars, murder, destroy, steal and every other kind of madness. And still does. Is it a surprise no one has noticed ? NO (reply to this comment)

From ange Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 06:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Sounds like you are still regurgitating the MO Letters. Didn't The Family's faulty doctrines play a part in you wanting to "backslide"? (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 05:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Am I hearing this correctly? So Harold Shipman killed all those pensioners in the interest of world order? Rwandan genocide was carried out in the interest of World order? The European imperialist powers built their empires in the interest of an anachronism of Christian scriptural interpretation? So your saying that all of humanity's crimes can be blamed on a world government? Either you're delusional or you're just dyslexic. Which is it, genius?(reply to this comment)

From vixen Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 09:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Please don't insult dyslexics like that, Baxter!(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Thursday, March 03, 2005, 06:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I doubt he's dyslexic, Vicky. He just stoopid!(reply to this comment)

From vixen Thursday, March 03, 2005, 08:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I know that, dear. : )(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Thursday, March 03, 2005, 06:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I doubt he's dyslexic, Vicky. He just stoopid!(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 10:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I find it very disturbing that you equate institutions of governance with Satan. It's these very Satanic institutions that guarantee your right to believe and voice such nonsence so freely. It was the founders of this country that put all the ("Illuminati") Masonic symbolism into American money. You'll find these types of symbols in almost any nations currency. Have you been ignoring the command to "touch not the unclean thing"? First to flatly blame any and all murder and madness on governments is obviously plain wrong. And then move right on to say that satan has highjacked christianity to accomplish this is odd at best. Has Satan been using christianity? Is that even theologically sound? Who's feeding you your daily dose of faith now? That is a powerfull statement to make out of the blue. Are you a prophet with a new revelation? I used to dose a lot during Bibble studies, maybe I missed something in there. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) I feel like I'm speaking to a 2 year old. You find it more disturbing that I equate TF with Satan or the people who run this world ? "First to flatly blame any and all murder and madness on governments is obviously plain wrong" I proudly blame all atrocities on governments and or human Institutions and Organizations. Wait.... Does that sound whack ? Because you are blaming it on a "powerless book". Isnt there just a bit of un logical hipocresy in you're way of seing things or is that just your lack of ability to smell BULLSHIT. Yes the people who run this world are Evil, unless of course, lets run it down. Lets start with: Dishonest exploitation of power for personal gain, Wars, the crime of killing people deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law, the invention of mass murdering diseases, the ability of deceiving and misleading entire masses, Creating Terror to then blame Inocent Countries, the invention of all kinds of weapons be they atomic or of mass destructure and using them, genocides of all manner big and small and still have the guts to boast about it, DEMONIC ENCOUTERINGS, INDULGING IN SATANIC RITUALS, HUMAN SACRIFICES, AND ALL OTHER MANNER OF BLASTED MADNESS Lets not forget what they did ? Or lets not forget who they are ? If you're saying that theses things, especially Satanic rituals and Human sacrifices, have anything to do with the Bible and that Bible reading christians are to blame then I have nothing more to say to you. And Yes Masonic Religion Is One of the Most Satanic on the Planet and has nothing to do with the Bible. I quote : Henry Clausen 33rd degree "Today we are at the threshold of a NEW ERA. All signs point to this fact.... We look toward a transformation into a NEW AGE using, however, the insight and wisdom of ancient Mystics... and the Mysticism of Eastern religion" Albert Mackey "Masonry is not Christianity... Whether you SWEAR or TAKE Gods name in vain does not matter so much. Of course, the name of the Lord JESUS Christ doesnt amount to much... Masonry is indeed a religious institution Manly p. Hall 33rd degree "When a mason learns that the Key (sound familiar?)... is the proper application of dynamo of living power... the seething energies of LUCIFER are in his hands and before he may step upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy. Alice Bailey "Many religions today expect the coming of an Avator or Savior. The second coming of Christ... He belongs to all mankind and can be understood as "the same great identity in all world religions...this event could occur in our time... It is unlikely he will be known by the name of Jesus... Jesus is not the Christ. Reference: Emergence of the Mystical, Spirit of Masonry, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Masonic Handbook(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 18:13 (Agree/Disagree?) What I find disturing is the ability for religious people to follow like "lambs to the slaughter" goverments, or religious leaders, due to their lack of knowledge of psycological coersion mixed with blind faith, their natural spirituality(paganisim) being re-interpreted as "a need for god" and an "after life". The people "who have run this world" for the last 2000 years have been people who manipulate the majority (who by circumstance and tradition, dictatorship etc..) using their fear of God, of an after life of eternal damnation, this is why people thru the ages have commited and perpertrated "evil" whilst believeing they are doing good. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 07:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes... and still not biblical.(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 18:48 (Agree/Disagree?) What I grapple with is the need to combat religious feavor( which seems to always lead to submition of a rallying "christian" call to arms for some "after the fact evil" ,so that it doesn't dominate and restrict my rights as a human, to think, to question etc.., without destroying those so weak that they cannot live their life knowing that their is an after life in heaven with 17 virgins or life eternal. Why should life eternal be more important then here and now? What lives on is the impact you make on this world! (reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 17:52 (Agree/Disagree?) "the ability of deceiving and misleading entire masses"- sounds very christian. Sounds very religious period. "You find it more disturbing that I equate TF with Satan or the people who run this world ?" -WTF? where'd you get that? Reading comprehention is not a skill of yours obvioulsy. I never blamed a book for atrocities. I balmed it's faithful and most ardent and celebrated users! As well as it's small minded mass of sheepish followers. This seems to bother you. With statements like "I proudly blame all atrocities on governments and or human Institutions and Organizations." we see how obtuse you can be. - Crimes are commited by individuals. FreeMasonry is not a religion.- But I would expect a christian like yourself to state the usual mumbo jumbo. It's so typical of christians to lump a buh-zillion groups together without understanding a thing about them. It's like you have this list of christian panic words, anything new or beyond your christian reality/faith box becomes a sign of the times. MEIN KAMPF -- Also a powerless book? DAS CAPITAL-- Just a harmless manual? U.S. Constitution -- A leaflet? Since when do you believe the Bible to be powerless? Who's being blasphemous now? Maybe it's time for a new religion, or at least some research into the one you have. Wasn't Abraham and Isaac an instance of human sacrifice demanded by your god? Everything you mention and more is a direct result of religion, especially christianity when it comes to the western world. If with that jab you meant to imply that a two year old can make more sense than you, then you would be correct.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 09:12 (Agree/Disagree?) The churches have been supporting TF for years, They must have been laughing themselves silly when Cults sprang up to entrap our parents generation to go and witness to the world, instead of voting and making the real world a better place, becoming teachers, good neighbours etc...) Ever wounder why religions and goverments have done nothing but turn a blind eye to our situation, how they fund organisations such as INFORM to inform you that you have nothing to worry about if your child joins a cult?? Our voices must be heard! (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:09 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.doublestandards.org/landau1.html http://www.doublestandards.org/pitt1.html http://www.mmedia.is/odsmal/Jesus_heathen.html The slack moral - the immorality. The raconteurs tell us about a famous Icelandic christian missioner that was preaching in the North of Iceland, trying to convert people there. A prominent heathen man talked against his christianity so the missioner had no luck and had to retreat and leave the place. The missioner informed the king, and told him about that certain heathen man that spoke with great success against christianity. The king sent his armed men to murder that heathen where he was, unarmed, at his work. This famous missioner now stands in the north of Iceland as a big statue, put up by modern christians, to rejoice for ever in the great task he performed when christianising Iceland. All his crimes and rotten means are now looked at as good christian deeds . Heathens did not realise, to begin with, how theocracy works. The entire opposites, -- spirituality and worldly urge for dominance -- were mixed up. That confused us. We defended our shrines against the plunderers as this was our dear possessions and a sacred place for our rituals, devotion, our most profound search for the Great Spirit within. We loved our shrines. They were holy places to us. Therefore, actually just therefore, the christian church overtook them. (You see this same pattern wherever Semitic culture is seizing power: Overtake the shrines and the people's holy hills and put the theocratic house there. If the previous owners rebel to regain their precious place, then the bloodshed begins, and the previous owner is called a fanatic murderer. The slack moral - the immorality. The raconteurs tell us about a famous Icelandic christian missioner that was preaching in the North of Iceland, trying to convert people there. A prominent heathen man talked against his christianity so the missioner had no luck and had to retreat and leave the place. The missioner informed the king, and told him about that certain heathen man that spoke with great success against christianity. The king sent his armed men to murder that heathen where he was, unarmed, at his work. This famous missioner now stands in the north of Iceland as a big statue, put up by modern christians, to rejoice for ever in the great task he performed when christianising Iceland. All his crimes and rotten means are now looked at as good christian deeds . (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 08:16 (Agree/Disagree?) "the ability of deceiving and misleading entire masses"- sounds very "christian" Sounds very religious period. Its absolutely deceving and religious. But is it Christian ? "I balmed it's FAITHFUL and most ARDENT and celebrated users! As well as it's small minded mass of sheepish followers" Again you astound me. Which are those ardent users may I ask ? You're actually blaming the people who MANIPULATE the Bible AKA. K.Z, The Catholic Church and Politicians along with every other leader who twists the Bible for their own means. But wait... how do they get the "mass of sheepish followers". Because the mass doesnt read the Bible. Examples ? If members of TF, to put an example, were to read the Bible they would see that what they're doing isnt Biblical and if it isnt biblical its just NOT CHRISTIAN. Who May Wear The Name Christian? Christ said His brethren are those who do His WILL (Matt. 12:48-50). Not everyone is Christ's brother, therefore not everyone is OUR brother (II Jn. 9-11)! It is high time that we learned the difference between "hyphenated-Christians" and true Christians!! Let us not abuse the name of Christian by thinking just anyone can wear it! Okay "FreeMasonry is not a religion" I qoute : Albert Mackey "Masonry is indeed a religious institution" Henry Wilson Coil "Some ATTEMPT to avoid the issue by saying that Freemasonry is NOT A RELIGION... It is RELIGIOUS... "Does Freemasonry continually teach and insist upon a CREED, TENET and DOGMA ? Most emphatically YES. Reference: Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and Coil's Masonic Encyclopiedia Is it religious ? Yes Is it Satanic ? Yes Has it been in American Politics ? Yes Are they awaiting a Christ ? Yes Is it Biblical ? NO Is it Christian ? NO Ahh yes but YOU would know more about Masonry than a Mason the same way you would know more about Christianity than a Christian right ? (reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 10:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Though I may not be christian now I was once raised as one. I have studied the religion dilligently before tossing it off like the wet blanket it is. I now see the light of the sun! And it feels good. I would venture that if I were to argue the other side and defend christianity, I would still do a better job than you have. The only conclusive thing you have proved is that you're ignorant of even your own position and stubborn about it. If I were a christian leader I would beg you to keep quiet so as to not ruin our chances for new sheep any further. But since I don't give a rats piss about religion in general, I'll step back and let you tear it apart brick by brick with your confused stupidity.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 15:21 (Agree/Disagree?) "Though I may not be christian now I was once raised as one" Not. "I have studied the religion dilligently before tossing it off like the wet blanket it is" If you did then how did you get the Abraham story wrong ? They were never an instance from anything. It was all a test of his faith and at the same time God in all his wisdom is showing the Jews that He was going to give his only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. And yet you nor the Jews understood that. (reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 19:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Abraham or Abram, came out of the land of Ur. Situated near present day Bagdad or ancient Babylon. The Hebrews engaged in Human sacrifice long after Abraham, even into the time of king Solomon and beyond. Christianity is one of many militant sects to stem from ancient Judaic traditions. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 06:18 (Agree/Disagree?) King Solomon is said to be the Father of Masonry.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 08:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Said by whom, you? I'll take that at face value since you haven't made a SINGLE mistake in your recounting of certain facts. (for the inept: Insert sarcastic tones above). I wonder how many times you prayed to be made wise as Solomon? Here's your chance. Open your eyes and see the traditions Solomon left to the world. He may have not invented Freemasonry but through his influence (and of many great men to follow) it grew into an "underground railroad" of scientific truth for it's day.Confused as it may have been. By the middle ages Freemasonry had become a repository for arcane and forbidden sciences such as sacred geometry and mathematics. Basically it became a bastion of resistance against the christian attempt to enslave knowledge, and thus the world. Whatever1037, settle down and think about it. I can guess your gut is roilling and your panties are in a bunch and you want to type something like, NOW. But do me a favor and THINK before you do. Posting self contradictory nonsensical circle speak does none of us any good. Feel free to contradict anything you like, just please make sense when you do. When I was a child I used to go to old folks homes (all that cult crap), and there was inevitably one or two old people who'd try to fit two or three stories into one sentence at once. Your posts remind me of that.(reply to this comment)

From fuckyouverymuch Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 15:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Woah, woah, woah, woah! Abraham's 'sacrifice' had nothing at all to do with eternal life nitwit.(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 09:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Simply because a person can be labeled as something else besides a christian (politician, leaders, etc.) doesn't mean the label of christian doesn't apply when it comes to matters of morality and behaviour. As a christian "washed in the blood of the lamb", eveything you do is a reflection of what you believe. A persons christianity is not suspended simply because they hold a secular title. (Though we wish it were). To give you a complete list of ardent users of the bible is impossible, so a small example will have to suffice (though in your case I don't think anything would. "There are none so blind as those who would not see") Here's your list of the faith drug abusers: National Socialist Party - NAZIS were very christian, Hittler believed he was doing God a service by ridding the world of the christians' enemy the jews, and others. Catholic church (I know I'm inviting a screamer from you on this one, lol, but it spaeks for itself. And loudly at that). The Family (recognize?) Look how much can be blamed on just three christian groups, and there are thousands! Check this out: hether it is a physician, pastor, or new-age prophet on the pedestal, chances are the public is largely responsible for putting him or her there. What is it about people, including evangelicals, that explains this apparent need for authority figures? There are obviously many individuals in our society who are looking for some kind of authority to co-sign for their lives. As David Gill noted in Radix magazine, "We want heroes! We want reassurance that someone knows what is going on in this mad world. We want a father or a mother to lean on. We want revolutionary folk heroes who will tell us what to do until the rapture. We accept without a whimper their rationalizations of their errors and deviations." The popularity of evangelical gurus, new-age cults, and superpastors says a number of things about our society as well as rank-and-file evangelicalism. First, there are many people in our rapidly changing and often confusing world who have real dependency needs. They are attracted to authoritarian movements, Christian or otherwise, because these movements offer black and white, clear-cut answers (or systematic approaches) to life's problems. Moreover, the leaders of such organizations convey a sense of solidity, a feeling of being on top of problems, of being in control of the situation. In a word, these groups offer security. For people who have lacked positive structure in their lives, who have difficulty in making decisions or resolving conflicts or those who are just plain uncertain about the future, these movements/churches/programs are a haven. The leaders of many of these groups consciously foster an unhealthy form of dependency, spiritually and otherwise, by focusing on themes of submission and obedience to those in authority. They create the impression that people just aren't going to find their way through life's maze without a lot of firm directives from those at the top. "Apostle" John Robert Stevens, founder and leader of an aberrant Christian group known as The Church of the Living Word (or "The Walk") puts it succinctly: "People are not going to make it unless they have a man like Moses to intercede for them." Secondly, an obvious need in today's society and today's church is a sense of belonging and an experience of community. Our highly mobile, disjointed world creates a strong demand for fellowship. Some people find their need for communion met in conventional contexts such as church support groups, fraternal organizations, and friendship cliques. Others found it, or hoped they would find it, in Jonestown. As Norman De Puy observed, "The people in Guyana did not abandon their self-control, their judgment or their competitive instincts so much as traded them off for love, peace, community, and security." ((Sounds like the way you feel about your Jesus!) nother characteristic of the current scene is a genuine spiritual hunger with many new Christians lacking firm roots. People who get into cults are involved in a spiritual search not unlike those who find Christ at a Billy Graham crusade or through the ministry of Christian broadcasting. In both cases, we are talking about people who are theologically naive and unsophisticated. Newly converted Christians are usually not in a position to evaluate the spiritual smorgasbord which is available to them. It is understandable that many heed a strong authoritarian appeal under such circumstances. British church leader Michael Harper suggests that the recent extraordinary growth of the charismatic renewal movement in North America is related to the confusion and controversy surrounding the highly authoritarian, "shepherding" and "discipling" emphasis in certain charismatic circles. "The renewal has produced thousands of nomadic Christians, or sheep without shepherds, and there has been little thought for order and authority. Many have chosen spiritual anarchy, and the casualties." (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 15:40 (Agree/Disagree?) National Socialist Party - NAZIS were very "christian" Catholic Church TF And then you dont want me to call you an Ignorant ? You're asking for it. I mean we've been through this before and you still dont get it right. "What is it about people, including evangelicals, that explains this apparent need for authority figures?" Ummm Lack of the Bible ? (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:10 (Agree/Disagree?) First your book is powerless, now it's the solution to mankinds problems! Well make up your feeble mind already! So you don't accept that Hitler was christian? That's ok, I wouldn't want him on my team either. But facts are facts. Perhaps you'd like to argue the facts with the man himself. From the Mein Kampf - "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Hitler from a speech in 1922: "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." Both of these quotes are from Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939 , Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942, cited in an Internet article by Doug Krueger: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out". "For their interests [the Church's] cannot fail to coincide with ours [the National Socialists] alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life". Another interesting quote is found in a book by Albert Speer, Hitler's Minister of Armaments: "I often feel that we will have to undergo all the trials the devil and hell can devise before we achieve Final Victory....I may be no pious churchgoer, but deep within me I am nevertheless a devout man. That is to say, I believe that he who fights valiantly obeying the laws which a god has established and who never capitulates but instead gathers his forces time after time and always pushes forward—such a man will not be abandoned by the Lawgiver. Rather he will ultimately receive the blessing of Providence. And that blessing has been imparted to all great spirits in history." (Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich : Memoirs . Bonanza Books ; Distributed by Crown Publishers, 1982, cited in an Internet article by Kevin Davids). Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12] "The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine." [Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1] "Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it." It goes on and on. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:48 (Agree/Disagree?) In my opinion the Bible is the word of God. I was merely quoting the athiests on this web page. And Hitler is sounding still to much like a man we both know so basically you can quote him all you want. I already said if it isnt Biblical it isnt Christian. No matter what Berg, Hitler , Bush, or the Pope say or do I am a BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN and if you cant get that in your head I think you're the one with the lack of reading comprehension and the ability to smell BS.(reply to this comment)

From which part? Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Remember the story of the blind man and the Elephant? Even an athiest thinks Jesus direct quotes were meaninful. Love your enemy, etc.. You don't have to be a christian, buddist, Jew, Muslum to know how to have morals and to live in love. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Parroting the same thing over and over... Polly want a cracker? (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 11:00 (Agree/Disagree?) How about if saw a video tape ? Then would you belive it ? lol(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 11:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Is it at all like the blair witch project? I mean really authentic like that? Oh yeah, witch hunts another christian passtime! In America it was the puritans, and think, you can't get much a more pious christian than a puritan.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Facts are facts right ? How about this then. The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to SECRET SOCIETIES, to secret OATHS and to secret PROCEEDINGS. President JOHN F. KENNEDY April 27, 1961 two years before he was Murdered. This is you: "Why should I ignore what the christian leader of the christian world does? Because it makes you uncomfortable? So typical, excise anything that doesn't sit right" "BUSH IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE... I'd like everybodys comment or at least a rating on this. I want to see if I'm the only one thats crazy. I didnt post the whole story cause its kind of long. From a christian. For over 128 years, WORLD LEADERS and PRESIDENTS have traveled to this place.. Almost immediately, bizarre rumors began to circulate that something dark and OCCULT was going on. The rumors entailed dark stories of men in black and red robes and a giant 40-foot stone owl, to which something, or someone was being sacrificed. Me and the other members of the team, began a three-day investigation before attempting to enter. When we got in we were able to prove the rumor true: yes there is a giant stone owl – yes there is an altar. As we were walking deeper , past the lake, we even saw little metal crosses sticking up from the water’s edge. We’ll get to those little metal crosses later. So, now we had been there about an hour at the observation deck. There was no one around. All of the sudden, there was an older gentleman, about 67-70 years old, wearing a ... uniform coming up the path . We didn’t even see him coming. I believe he was the ... and he started speaking to us in some kind of code. He looked directly at me and said, "Were you here in 1913? Are you one of the old ones?" Now obviously, I was 27 years old and the man knew I wasn’t around in 1913 and that I wasn’t one of the old ones. Knowing that he was testing me, I just calmly said, "Yeah, I’m with the Hillbillies." To explain that, there are about 95 different clubs. All the different club houses and log cabin-style mansions that are built into the cliffs have different names and different memberships. The most elite club, according to press reports is Mandaley, with Henry Kissinger and Paul Volcker, former FEDERAL RESERVE Chairman and other New World Order bosses. At that point he smiled and said, "Well, enjoy the day." He then turned around and walked off. After he left I said to Mike, "Look, we’ve got to get to a new position and hide ourselves in the woods." So we traveled back into the gorge, off the cliffside and the observation deck. About half-way into the gorge, we noticed that two men in dark suits and sunglasses were following us. I decided to slow down. The two men ,who were obviously private security, Secret Service or somebody’s private body guards, walked up to us and asked us our names. I gave them my fake name and Mike gave them his fake name, and we told them that we were members of the Hillbilly Club. They said, "take it easy, don’t stress yourselves out and enjoy yourselves," which was a theme that came up more later. At this point, we had been confronted twice and were now being followed. I told Mike that we had to get into a heavily populated area where a lot of the ... members were congregating. So we went into several of the clubs and almost had our identities blown. We went in and had a few drinks, because everyone was drinking copiously and they were offering us wine in some of the clubhouses. We then got back on the road and into a large outdoor feasting area, where hundreds of tables were being set from some party or revelry. I told Mike we should go up the steep road into the hills where some of the larger structures were located. It took us about 20 minutes to walk up the road into the only hills that were accessible by foot. At that point some of the employees began to ask us why weren’t riding the truck up. We told them that we wanted exercise. We noticed that high up in the hills many of the large log cabin structures were deserted, with many large outside decks. So we went into the Web Camp and just made ourselves comfortable. (The camps have different names like Lost Boys, Doom, Dragon etc.) We simply sat out the next hour. By then, the shadows were getting really long and it was just a few minutes until dusk. We started to hear bizarre chanting and singing coming from down below us in the gorge. So we traveled back into the gorge. On our way back down, we saw thousands of men chanting and singing drunkenly beneath the giant redwoods. It was like something out of a fantasy novel. I expected to see a dragon come hopping by any moment. There were huge skulls hanging down from the floodlights, satanic-styled owls with glowing eyes, (a lot of trappings of death) that we could now see in the twilight illuminated by the large floodlights. The feasting revelers were beginning to break up and to travel down paths towards the lake. We decided to go ahead and mix in with them and go where they were going. They were going towards the east side of the bank about 100 yards across the north tip of the lake where the idol and altar stood. As we were walking around the lake, the only black man we saw, a very large man, saw myself and Mike Hanson walking very quickly compared to other members in the crowd (we wanted to get a good place on the east side of the bank to watch the ... ritual – all rumors I had heard were now coming true). He said, "trouble yourselves not! Take it easy! The cares of the world are off your shoulders! You’re not supposed to walk that fast." He then gave us two full-color programs. On the cover of the program, they show Moloch, the big owl, with a burning body enflamed beneath it. Also a little demon, with the initials PJ was sweeping up someone’s ashes on the lower left-hand corner of the program. Then, out of the woods, all of the sudden came thirty priests in black robes, their faces painted up like death, with a man dressed like the Grim Reaper pulling a wagon with a bound body. Then we noticed something that we had seen during the day. Large black canopies had been unfurled out of the trees on the western side of the bank (we’re on the eastern side – only about 70 yards away at that point) and they unfurled those, and the wagon pulled behind it. The men then began to yell out, "burn him again! He’s going to get what he deserves! Probably out of the entire ritual that I witnessed, the most important aspect of the ceremony was what happened first. The wagon went behind these big black sheets hanging out of the trees, down to the ground, obscuring the view, and for about 10 minutes nothing happened. It was quiet except for the hateful shouts of the old men, who said things like, "Oh yeah! Burn that bastard! Kill him! That’s what he deserves!" All we could hear was them whispering and smacking their lips. This went on and on. Then, out came the high priest, who went through all his incantations about the dead (who is dead in the past, may their spirits be conjured and brought back there by the "great owl"). He praised the owl for about twenty minutes and he talked about "goodly Tyre and Babylon." (I know how bizarre this all sounds, but its the truth) So, the priest talked about "goodly Tyre and Babylon." Well,, there is only one "great owl" of Babylon and "goodly" Tyre. If you read your Bible, or any historical document of the time, they were burning children in the Babylonian and Caananite kingdoms before the owl-god Moloch. He brought the bound body to the high priest who was waiting for it at the foot of the owl, at the bottom of large circular steps on which the owl sits. Then, in very macabre fashion, the two black-clad priests rubbed and caressed the sacrificial body and brought it before the owl. The body begged for its life, over a speaker system. They refused it mercy. They took it up onto the altar. The "great owl" told them to burn the body (which they called "dull care,")which looks like a human wrapped up in black cloth. Right above the altar there was a large stone lamp that was burning that they call the "eternal flame." The high priest took an unlit torch and lit his torch with this flame. The body continued to scream in pain. Suddenly, all of those little metal crosses that we had seen along the bank during the day burst into flame. So, I was there witnessing something right out of the medieval painter Hieronymus Bosch’s Visions of Hell: burning metal crosses, priests in red and black robes with the high priest in a silver robe with a red cape, a burning body screaming in pain, a giant stone great-horned owl, world leaders, bankers, media and the head of academia engaged in these activities. It was total insanity. So the ritual ended and all the old men started breaking up and going back to the big hall in the giant redwoods. Myself and Mike high-tailed it out of there, walking at a brisk pace. We encountered no resistance when we left. We walked right by guards and were out on the main road. It is a lot easier to get out of there than it is to get in, because a lot of these World Leaders that you read about in the news leave to go into Town. They go into the bars for prostitutes that are flown in from around the world to service them. The rest of the team was waiting for us down the road. (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, March 04, 2005, 05:28 (Agree/Disagree?) So now the Owls are out to get you? 'I know how bizarre this all sounds, but its the truth' So how do we know this is the truth? Because a Christian says so? You gullible meathead! (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Friday, March 04, 2005, 11:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I already posted the links. Dont forget to post your comment!(reply to this comment)

From Friday, March 04, 2005, 12:21 (Agree/Disagree?) God how stupidly blind can you get! What does that there looky like? Ass!(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, March 03, 2005, 12:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Seriously, if you want to obsess about secrets and conspiracies how about Dick Cheney's secret energy commitee meetings? Or the fact that a war was planned as soon as Bush got into office in which the biggest money making companies have were run by Cheney and Rumsfeld! Or Bush's refusal to form a 911 commission until it was politically prudent to do so! And then his refusal to testify before that committe without Dick-the-sidekick Cheney holding his hand! Quit getting all hyper over some cheap B-rated horror movie type conspiracy. We've got real secrets and problems to worry about without bringing up robes, burning bodies, and owls. Geez!! (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 11:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Can these be the vey same people that are using religions and religious people to do their dirty work? Who did you vote for? Tell me were you you for the war in Iraq? Did you vote for the right? Will you protest about the pre-emptive measures to cur civil rights, that goverments are imposing? The promise of a "saviour" is a carrot on the end of a stick and has been for 2000 yrs. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:53 (Agree/Disagree?) "form a christian" - some random christian. Well it would be! Conversing with you is an utter waste of time and effort. You could faltulate in a high wind and confuse it with the voice of christ! Christianity is lucky there are as many fools like yourself around or it wound have died out long ago. I won't be posting any more responses to your drivel. Even your Jesus cautioned against tossing pearls to swine! (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 10:56 (Agree/Disagree?) So you dont believe this man ? (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 11:24 (Agree/Disagree?) It's just odd to insinuate that American Presidents commit ritualistic human sacrifice. A little freaked out actually. You say you have a video? Post a link. Let's see it.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 11:48 (Agree/Disagree?) "It's just odd to insinuate that American Presidents commit ritualistic human sacrifice" Well I find it odd that you claim Hitler a Christian. Isnt there a bit of hipocresy in here ? A few things before posting the linl : "Thank God I caught the whole thing on videotape because no one (YEAH PEOPLE LIKE YOU) would believe me if I hadn’t. I have trouble believing what I witnessed with my own two eyes. It was actually that bizarre." The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to SECRET SOCIETIES, to secret OATHS and to secret PROCEEDINGS. President JOHN F. KENNEDY April 27, 1961 two years before he was Murdered. http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/august2004/082804dictatorspreview.htm "BUSH IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE..." You own mouth condems you http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/the_road_to_tyranny__34kbps_.ram Dont forget to post your comments. Thank you. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 13:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Hitler procaimed his christianity in a public speech and that makes me a hypocrite? I don't see how anything Hitler said or did makes me anything one way or the other. To suggest so is insulting at best. The Jews (my people) have suffered for centuries under the oppresion of christians like Hitler. What you read were his words not mine. He proclaimed his cruzade in the name of the deity you both share, and proceeded with approval and in some cases help of the biggest institution of christianity in existance, with whom a deity you also share. But I'm the hypocrite! I don't know where you went off the deep end in this conversation and assumed the belief that anyone here is going to be condemned! This is a heated debate, not Armageddon! Ooooh COMDEMNATION. You really need a happier religion. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Friday, March 04, 2005, 11:35 (Agree/Disagree?) I didnt call you a hypocrite. I said theres hypocresy "in here". You're posting scripture from a maniac and calling him a christian but when I post scripture from St.John etc everyone, and that includes you, goes bezerk. What up with that ? And by the way didnt you say this about yourself ? "pearls to swine" (reply to this comment)

From thoroghly annoyed at how obtuse you are Friday, March 04, 2005, 12:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Hypocrisy IN here? Your semantics are of no use. They don't even make sense. I'm sorry, maybe I didn't understand you. Did you just call Hitlers words scripture? Once again you tread a wierd theological line! Please define beserk. Because it seems that you're refering to a stronger argument as the act of going beserk. And hello, I didn't call him (Hitler) a christian! He called himself that, I merely pointed it out for you. Though I can see why this makes you uncomfortable. The solution to that problem is to examine your beliefs a little closer, and really research the methods that were used to bring that belief to you. What doesn't help is to lash out irrationally with digs that barely qualify as insults, and then twist yourself around to where you can't even remember what you've posted previously, much less understand someone else's post sitting in front of you. Try reading them more than once, let them sink in a bit first you know? At least that way you can sound like you read the damn thing before tripping all over yourself. A proof read of your own might help as well. ;0) (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, March 03, 2005, 12:26 (Agree/Disagree?) second link doesn't work(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, March 03, 2005, 16:43 (Agree/Disagree?) You sure, it works pretty good here(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Thursday, March 03, 2005, 08:52 (Agree/Disagree?) The way I see things is that division between the major religions fuels hate and causes mankind to view others as less than human.This is exactly why Religion will destroy society unless people start turning their back to it. Seek the truth through facts and research. Unless Dogma is wiped out the scared and the ignorant will destroy society and turn it into a paranoid fear factory lead by the self-righteous. Which we have already seen countless times(Nazi Germany) I know the bible and know of the prediction of the end of the world. What I see is that the "Beast" is alive and well and is being backed by the Evangelicals and the Fundamentalist. The "Beast" is the current world power and everyday it is consuming more and more individual rights and civil liberties. Privacy and Freedom will become things of the past. All destroyed in the name of national security. Any society that sacrifices its civil liberties for security has neither in the end. Both sides are being played against each other. Today's "terror" is a product of our own governments actions and religions self-righteousness. One day you may to realize that the army’s of the "Beast" are really the people claiming to be fighting for God and the government that controls them. The ones forcing the world to conform to their self-righteous beliefs are the ones creating the terror. The Ilimunati is part of the division so that you fear the “devil” even more, I am saddened to learn that government have been passing laws that enable the government to detain citizens in their own hoses or in a detention camp with no access to law, knowledge of the evidence and the charges against you or right to appeal or be tried in a court of law or by their peers. Can you see where this will lead? You can be called a “terrorist” and have no way of proving you are not. All opposition to a dictatership will be useless. This is how Hitler gained his power and it seems we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. All three major parties have little difference between them so they may as well be one in the same giving people the illusion they are making their choice. ut whilst there are still differences we must vote. At the moment the liberal democrats are against this new bill and ID cards. The end of religion will create World Peace. (That doesn’t mean to say you can’t be spiritual or believe we are all connected and show respect for our earth.) Destroy what separates us and teach acceptance and respect. Allow others to exist and live their own destinies. Love for your family and “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is what creates morality, not a book written in ancient times by men. Tthe Jews and Arabs are of the same geneology, yet what keeps them separate and in killing mode is a different belief. Carried out by disilusioned, manipulated often children and young adults, “extremists” driven by some type of religious fevor. Right now the "Beast" is in control and if things continue as they are it will one day rule the Earth or be destroyed, destroying everyone in it and around it. History says it will be destroyed. Can you honest say you see a bright tomorrow on this path, lead by these people and their beliefs? (reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 19:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry that wasn't even coherent! (reply to this comment)

From moon beam Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 11:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Good stuff.(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 12:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Satan comes from shaitan, meaning bringer of light. (reply to this comment)

From weegirlie Monday, February 28, 2005, 04:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, I think you'll find it's you who is an expert on "blind" faith and "dilusion".(reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Friday, February 25, 2005, 12:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes I know who the Dhalai Lama is. You obviously don't though. Let me ask you a question, do you research what you intennd to post or do you simply state every thing that rattles through your head? Here are just a few crucial differences you've sadly missed: 1. The Dalai Lamas are the manifestations of the Bodhisattva of Compassion, who chose to reincarnate to serve the people. 2. (Their goal in the Dalai Lamas own words): " The need for simple human-to-human relationships is becoming increasingly urgent . . . Today the world is smaller and more interdependent. One nation's problems can no longer be solved by itself completely. Thus, without a sense of universal responsibility, our very survival becomes threatened. Basically, universal responsibility is feeling for other people's suffering just as we feel our own. It is the realization that even our enemy is entirely motivated by the quest for happiness. We must recognize that all beings want the same thing that we want. This is the way to achieve a true understanding, unfettered by artificial consideration ." During his travels abroad, His Holiness has spoken strongly for better understanding and respect among the different faiths of the world. Towards this end, His Holiness has made numerous appearances in interfaith services, imparting the message of universal responsibility, love, compassion and kindness. (there goes your pinky and the brain world domination theory). 3. The Dalai Lama says: " I always believe that it is much better to have a variety of religions, a variety of philosophies, rather than one single religion or philosophy. This is necessary because of the different mental dispositions of each human being. Each religion has certain unique ideas or techniques, and learning about them can only enrich one's own faith ." (He's talking about enriching your faith, not converting you to his like christians do). I guess you COULD say more, but it probably won't do much for your argument. Regardless, here is a link to show you that even Buddhism has it's dark side. Who new they were so mysogynistic. http://www.american-buddha.com/female.sac.htm(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Saturday, February 26, 2005, 00:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry if I didnt write his biography. Is that what you wanted ? But lets run it down. You give a pretty good description of what their goal is. Now let me ask you isnt that also known as WORLD PEACE ? His Holiness has a Nobel Peace Prize. Where am I wrong ? There goes your pinky and the brain world domination theory. What theory ? You're using your imagination just a little to much here but worst of all your putting words in my mouth. The One world religion theory that I say he's (along with about 100 other New Age Religions) promoting is basically pretty simple it consists of "belive in what ever you want as long as you dont preach that you have the Way the Truth and The Life". Wasnt this you ? "The ancient Babylonians had five thousands gods, present day India still does and many of them are at odds with each other It proves that the world consiousness is most definitely NOT unified. (though it should be!" Yes dude and thats the idea Dalai Lama is here to teach us right ? "During his travels abroad, His Holiness has spoken strongly for better understanding and respect among the different faiths of the world" Thats exactly my point. I guess you COULD say more, but it probably won't do much for your argument. What argument ? I simply corrected xoxlox cause she said buddhists dont have a prophet or messiah that was my point and I thank you for making it more clear for everybody. Finally Regardless, here is a link to show you that even Buddhism has it's dark side. Who new they were so mysogynistic. What are you talking about ? Are you implying that I'm trying to portray the Buddist movement as an evil one ? You know.. Baxter says you guys dont know how to hallucinate at will so if you wanna share perspectives stop doing drugs dude. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Saturday, February 26, 2005, 12:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Where did I say they didn't have prophets? Please do me a favor a clip and paste it ok? Just so we can all see weather you made it up or not. Since you're here to "show everyone". The Pinky and the brain thing was an expression wrapped in a joke. (it's always someone trying to take over the world with christians). Actually I'M the one trying to show that christianity is NOT the ONLY EVIL religion. Here's an idea, read the post more than just once, just so you can be sure you comprehend the content. I mean who posted the link to that site after all? The train of logic has left the building, but I'm sure you can catch the next one. And where do you get the idea that I do drugs? You talk about putting words in peoples mouths but here you are, the quinessential christian, proselytizing, pointing fingers, promoting strife among religions, who feels so free to reinterpet the transaltion of a translation of a translation of a translation of the words of Jeeebus while you claim that I put words in your mouth, then in the next breath you accuse me of doing drugs and you don't even know me! It really MUST be the power of christ that compells you 'cause you act like every christian I ever met. (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Sunday, February 27, 2005, 07:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Wait.. did you mention pink n the brain ? Or are you the spokesman of the movingon athiest club ? Also why are you taking a comment not made to you (drugs) upon yourself ? And where did I say that you where putting words in my mouth ? Are you and Imajoo the same person ? If you're not the same person, like the say "if the shoe fits wear it". And you're putting it on. And that makes me wonder. Your article: "Do some research before you start posting such ignorance!" Wait arent you pointing fingers ? Actually you are. " Buddhists are not waiting for any Messiah" Then I said you're RIGHT but .. they already have one. This is a prophet acording to my diccionary. 1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations 2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight 3 : one who foretells future events* 4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group Messiah: 1 : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews* 2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause Actually Dalai fits in all descriptions except two. Although he has spoken of a "New Age of Peace" in countless of his lectures. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Sunday, February 27, 2005, 16:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Does this look familiar? "You know.. Baxter says you guys dont know how to hallucinate at will so if you wanna share perspectives stop doing drugs dude." It should, you posted it.(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Monday, February 28, 2005, 03:48 (Agree/Disagree?) You're taking that comment opon yourself. Unless of course you and Imajoo are the same person. If you are then Yes it was ment for you if not then like I said dont put the "shoe" on.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Saturday, February 26, 2005, 09:28 (Agree/Disagree?) My impression of this is that you think seeing one pink elephant makes you superior to the people who see many elephants of different colors. I say rock on -- you're all idiots!(reply to this comment)

From conan Saturday, February 26, 2005, 19:41 (Agree/Disagree?) But Joe man, psychadelic elephants are the shiznit...oh wait...you didn't say anything bad about them...I was under the impression we were just supposed to argue about anything and everything on this particular page...my bad...rock on yourself hommie!(reply to this comment)

From vixen Saturday, February 26, 2005, 05:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, you said that Buddhism has a Messiah, which is very different than a prophet. As such, Xolox was absolutely correct in correcting you. (reply to this comment)

From vixen Saturday, February 26, 2005, 05:27 (Agree/Disagree?) And, I doubt that the Dalai Lama can rightfully be called a prophet, as he does not foretell or predict. He also does not speak with the authority of a specific God (unless my limited understanding of Buddhism is letting me down - please, someone knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong). The only definition of 'prophet' that fits, to my understanding, is that of a spokesperson or interpreter.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, February 24, 2005, 17:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I can prove you wrong. Just now I took the lotion (it's been unbelievably dry lately) off my desk and challenged God, if he was real, to stop it from hitting the floor when I dropped it. Sure enough, it landed with a charming thud that reaffirmed my disbelief in the unprovable. I should note, however, that I did knock a bunch of papers into the trash while picking it up, but I blame my own clumsiness, not a conniving, ineffectual deity for that.(reply to this comment)

From conan Saturday, February 26, 2005, 19:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Not to continue with the whole argumentative theme but, I put it to you Joe H that the 'lotion' was really lubricant, and the 'desk' just your porn center. The act of it falling was the culmination of your legs shaking at the verge of climax...and yes, your own clumsiness. It was probably god (or God to some) who knocked your (rolling) papers off the desk though as a precautionary measure to keep you from further abuse of your 'freedom' of choice to...oh my god!! Webel, do you see the stupidity of this comment?? Good! Now re-read your original article and see if you can find any similarities.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 14:58 (Agree/Disagree?) You should be on a street corner with a beard down to your chin, wearing sackcloth and a pair of dirty sandals, with a placard that reads "THE END IS HERE". (reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Thursday, February 24, 2005, 14:53 (Agree/Disagree?) You're absolutely right. But... ...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with PATIENCE the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (reply to this comment)

From xolox Friday, February 25, 2005, 12:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes you could take the Gold for Olimpic Doomsaying.(reply to this comment)

From xolox Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 15:01 (Agree/Disagree?) *chest man, down to your chest!(reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 14:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey think I know this one.. If the sky is red, stay in bed. If the sky is white, sailors delight.(reply to this comment)

From YEP!! Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 02:25 (Agree/Disagree?) The douche has resurfaced!(reply to this comment)

From weegirlie Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 01:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Gosh, all this time I didn't know that bitter had "the way, the truth, and the life". Perhaps I should switch drinks in order to find this "true enlightenment". lol ;)(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037 Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 02:33 (Agree/Disagree?) ohh yes that's right. Actually its supposed to say "the bitter end" (reply to this comment)

from vacuous Monday, February 21, 2005 - 05:16 (Agree/Disagree?) All that knowledge is is reinforced belief. Most people negotiate their own reality through their interpretation of experiences. Yeah so whatever gives you direction and meaning in your existance has no real argument from me....so long as you realise that your reality is subjective to you and do not attempt to assert that it encompasses me as well. (reply to this comment)

from Oddman Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 06:49 (Agree/Disagree?) I did not "lose my faith" because of TF. I did not "lose my faith" because of leaving TF. I simply did not believe in the existence of a "God" from a very young age. As I didn't believe in the existence of "God", salvation through christ never made any sense. If you want to make a believer of me, all you have to do is prove to me that "God" exists. If you really think about it, you would likely not believe in "God" if you were born in Iraq, and grew up as a Shiite muslim, or in India as a Hindu. Really, why do you believe in "God"? Can you really explain why you believe? I've never met one Christian, who could explain with good reason and logic, the reasons why they concluded "God" existed. (reply to this comment)

From sifuni mungu Sunday, February 20, 2005, 12:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I think there are rational reasons to believe in a higher power just as there are rational reasons not to believe. I choose to believe for pragmatic reasons--faith in something greater than myself gives me a way to put things in perspective and manage my life. I recognize that nonbelievers also have many ways to put things in perspective and manage their lives, and I don't think it's necessary to try to convert anyone to my way of dealing with existence. For me, the major issue is defining just what is meant by "God." The higher power I believe in is the unity of all probabilities. To people who argue that my concept of God is false because it's not a personal deity who sent his son to die for my sins, I would say they don't understand what is implied by the concept of unity in all probabilities. To those who wonder why I feel it necessary to equate the unity of all probabilities with a primitive tribal diety claimed by Christians, I'd argue that the Christian Father-God is a possibility in the union of infinite probabilities.(reply to this comment)

From openmind Sunday, February 20, 2005, 13:08 (Agree/Disagree?) if God is the unity of all probabilities... then what about the probability of there being no God(reply to this comment)

From sifuni Monday, February 21, 2005, 15:40 (Agree/Disagree?) The nonexistence of such a God is a probability--like everything else in the universe.(reply to this comment)

from Wolf Friday, February 18, 2005 - 21:15 (Agree/Disagree?) You have a lot of juice, Webel, to take on a site full of agnostics and atheists who hate being preached at. In some ways I admire you for it. I came to the conclusion that biblical concepts can’t be defended logically – so if you get into logical debates with intelligent people about God, Jesus, etc., I can pretty much guarantee that you’ll be slaughtered. If God exists, it seems he doesn’t want to be understood by human logic, and it follows that he doesn’t want humans to convince one another of his existence either. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 17:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you for the compliment Wolf;) I know that this site is full of agnostics and atheists I kinda expected the reaction I got to be honest - at the same time I just felt that it was important to put down my thoughts about the way that TF portrayed God was all wrong. My comments on this blog are't about winning or losing, it's about taking part (if you pardon the cliche). I am hoping that some people that are still confused/undecided might realize that God just isn't like the horrible pervert they portrayed him to be in TF and that and also, if anyone still stuck in TF and visit this site, they can see that we are not all "against God" some of us still do embrace the Christian faith but don't need to be in a cult to believe in God. The way that my family was controlled the most was that they bought into the belief that it was the only way they could be useful to God, and that if they left, terrible things would happen to them! that was a complete lie there is life after TF, there is also Faith after TF (in whatever you choose to believe in) I have recovered and I am married to a wonderful Christian man who believes the same as I and is totally supportive and understanding of my past in TF.(reply to this comment)

From Bring on the lemonade! Saturday, February 19, 2005, 05:16 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd say it's more likely that webel's willingness to 'witness' on this site has to do with blind stubborness and a lack of critical thinking skills.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 18:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I am not "witnessing" to anyone. "witnessing" and "litnessing" was pushing and ramming religion down people's throats, I am expressing what I believe and only what I believe and know to be true in my life. How can you say a person is "blind" when you don't see what they see? I am not denying what anyone else sees as the truth on this blog nor what they choose to believe in I am putting down what I see to be true. Also, for your information I have very good thinking skills, I made a tremendous recovery academically after being denied an education throughout my most important formative years and I am now a very highly qualified individual. Not all Christians are weak, feeble minded little pansies, neither are they all stubborn zealots that refuse to listen to other people's point of view - Just because I stand my ground it doesn't mean I am stubborn. It just means I am standing. I have had to fight for what I believe in the sense that I had to sort through so much s*** to get my beliefs straightened out it's not even funny. Perhaps the reason why I hold on to it with so much passion is because I had to lose everything in order to find it - I went through complete spiritual and emotional bankruptcy back in 1998 but that was where I found Him, at the core of my being - if you ever found yourself at the point of spiritual bankruptcy perhaps you would then know, for sure what really lies inside you, it is a deep spiritual experience to reach the point of no return and having to make a decision on whether or not to live for something or throw it all away (and I am still here:). (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, February 24, 2005, 18:37 (Agree/Disagree?) ...Ran out of illusions, so he picked up a delusion instead.(reply to this comment)

From neez Friday, February 18, 2005, 23:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Yup.. Webel's a regular martyr.(reply to this comment)

from Lauren Friday, February 18, 2005 - 17:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Since this is a discussion about religion, I thought I'd add my two cents: When I first left the Family, the thing I was most afraid of was "losing my faith" so to speak. Growing up, it seemed like that was one of the worst things that happened to people who left – somehow "losing their faith" was the cause of all of the "bad things" that happened to them "out there". Whatever. After leaving, I spent a lot of time trying to get down to the root of the Bible. It didn't take me but a couple of months after leaving, and reading things previously forbidden, to figure out that what we know of the Bible today is really all bullocks. And so I started going further back, trying to read as many of the ancient texts on which the Bible was founded to find out where it all originated. At the time I figured the closer to the original source I got, the more I'd be able to figure out what was "true" or "not. I guess the only thing I've really learned is that most people don't know their religion, and that there is no "truth" but we choose to believe. Every once in awhile, in my quest for getting to the root of where it all came from, I get an interesting surprise, which is what happened at the Shabbos dinner table with an Orthodox Rabbi and his family. Now you see, according to Christianity, Jesus came to earth to save us from our sins so that we wouldn't go to hell. Jesus was a Jew. He preached to the Jewish people (the whole "gentile" thing was Paul's ball of wax). So here's a question for people who believe in salvation: If Jesus was a Jew and preached to the Jews a message of salvation, what was he saving them from? According to Judaism, there is no heaven or hell as the Christians know it. There is a time of purgatory in Judaism, but the maximum amount any Jewish person can be there is for 11 Jewish months—and that's for the really bad people. – After that, they are guaranteed, no questions asked, a slot in "heaven". Also, unlike Christians, Jews are not exclusive in their "heaven". No salvation prayers to be had or rules to be kept. If you're not Jewish and you've lived a good life (didn't even keep a single Jewish rule), you're also guaranteed a slot in "heaven" – no questions asked. I'm not saying I believe what Judaism preaches, but it is the foundation of Christianity and Jesus himself was a Jew. So, for those who do believe in salvation, I'd like to know – what was Jesus saving people from if Jesus' own religion did not include a "hell"? (Oh, and please don't bother answering this question unless you really understand the background on the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic behind the translations – it's so time consuming trying to reply to answers from people who don't know what they are talking about.) (reply to this comment)

From ImaJoo Saturday, February 26, 2005, 13:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Dude you make great sence there. But christianity was never about logic. The ancient Romans took the concept of living godhood in stride, they may have worshipped but that did not mean they believed. (Q. Who could believe that Caligulas horse was a god? A. the same people who could accept as a god the man they themselves executed.) Christianity is just a conglomeration of the Roman empire's major religions with the trinity as the godhead. This is evidenced by the fact that the only way they could convert the population was to build christian temples on sacred pagan sites. The customs never changed much, just the names of the gods/saints.(reply to this comment)

From Monday, February 28, 2005, 10:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Whats more, nothing in christianity is original. (reply to this comment)

From Monday, February 21, 2005, 02:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Whatever you haven't understood yet, whatever questions you still have - few, if anybody at all, it seems, can properly answer them to your satisfaction now - they could soon be "met" with "superexpertise"."Help" is on the way (soon?), so hang on please, see that "light".(Not) http://www.believersofthebible.org/the_moshiach.html(reply to this comment)

from nonbeliever Friday, February 18, 2005 - 16:48 (Agree/Disagree?) It's really quite simple for me. Let's pretend for a bit that there is a God or some higher being and some true religion... But we have no way of proving or disproving any given religion as it is only one's own belief. Thus if we decide on a certain religion, we don't have any basis for excluding the others, but our own faith, now every person who believes thinks he believes in the "right" religion otherwise he would not believe in the first place. Everyone has their own version of religion, there are thousands of strains of christianity, etc. So the only way to actually do the "right" thing is to be open to anything but never actually believe in any religion. For the moment you choose one, you discard the others. However much one may believe that his faith is solid and true and the right one etc, it is nonetheless only his own belief and nothing more than that. Which brings me to the point that even if there is a God, he obviously didn't want us to know about him, because we can't verify his existence. (don't tell me about the beauty of nature etc) So, get on with life, God (if he exists) obviously intended us to live life without the knowlege of him. (reply to this comment)

from neez Friday, February 18, 2005 - 16:09 (Agree/Disagree?) This whole thing sounded strangely familiar. I guess some people never got past the whole witnessing thing. http://movingon.org/article.asp?sID=3&Cat=39&ID=1666 (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, February 21, 2005, 09:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, this topic comes up every month or so. I even mentioned it in my poll on most annoying topics (http://www.movingon.org/poll.asp?pID=161) , which was modified and never made it to the homepage because some PMS-ing feminazi thought it was offensive. She also thought certain immature boys were superior, based on the grammar in the last poll option, which she added. (reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 16:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes. I have no problem with someone posing a theological question or starting a debate. But please, don't witness to or at me. I was infected with that during childhood. And as with all diseases that I have overcome, I am fully immune to it.(reply to this comment)

from openmind Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:10 (Agree/Disagree?) What does christianity and God have to do with fidelity? If there is a God and if he created man then he would have also created the so called 'majesty of choice' factor and non-monogamous instincts. 'Heaven' and 'Hell', are both a mere state of mind that we ourselves create consciously or subconsciously. (reply to this comment)

From nonbeliever Friday, February 18, 2005, 16:56 (Agree/Disagree?) " 'Heaven' and 'Hell', are both a mere state of mind that we ourselves create consciously or subconsciously. " What on earth is that supposed to mean?(reply to this comment)

From openmind Saturday, February 19, 2005, 06:07 (Agree/Disagree?) This means that 'Heaven' and 'Hell' are states of mind that you feel here on earth either through creating the feelings consciously or subconsciously. I.E. When you are happy you are experiencing 'Heaven'. When you are sad you are going through 'Hell'.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 12:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Fidelity has to do with morals, it has to do with making a covenant or a pact with another person to love and cherish them for the rest of your life. That is what I believe in, one man and for one woman that is the way that God intended it to be "What God has joined together let no man break asunder". I agree that some people create their own hell by making stupid decisions, (TF was hell on earth) I also agree that some people can be in "heaven on earth" by pursuing life's pleasures, for sure! but there is also a Hell and a Heaven in the literal sense. If you don't want to believe it, fair enough, it's not for me to prove or disprove this fact as invariably everyone will find out when they die where they are going to go based on their choices here on this earth.(reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 14:23 (Agree/Disagree?) quote: "That is what I believe in, one man and for one woman...". sure ... but not one woman for one man! Look at King Soloman of old after the good lord bestowed wisdom upon him. He had plenty of wives and concubines. Its a pretty harsh world and no "God" is stopping any of the sufferring. He isn't even paying my rent. Webel, if you can understand the following, then it would be alot easier to further discuss the matter of "God". This is how Descartes reported his rules that he adopted for his scientific and philosophical work: The first was never to accept anything as true if I did not have evident knowledge of its truth: that is, carefully to avoid precipitate conclusions and preconceptions, and to include nothing more in my judgements than what presented itself to my mind so clearly and so distinctly that I had no occasion to doubt it. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, I know Solomon had lots of wives and concubines, I once heard someone say that he wasn't the wisest man in the Bible because he had over 800 mother in laws lol:D Anyway, he died knowing that everything was "vanity" and "grasping at the wind". His many wives turned his heart away from God. Sure, I know it's a harsh world, firshand! I was thrown into it with no education and having to come up with money to help my very skint family we had absolutely nothing when we left. But I know it was God who helped my family get through all those rough times. I know beyond the shadow of doubt that my Mother's prayers for us were answered, even though it took years for us to be restored somewhat to sanity after leaving TF. In the argument you present about not believing in anything you have proof of, is there a scientific formula for what love is? it's not enough to hear someone tell you that they love you, it needs to be believed also otherwise it means nothing and that takes a measure of faith in the person you say you love. The fact that there is no formula for love perse doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it does exist and it can be felt. My proof that God exists is that I feel him, I know that he is there and that is all the proof that I need. If you genuinely want proof from him that he is real I am sure he will prove himself to you.(reply to this comment)

From Gothsmack Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:39 (Agree/Disagree?) *Anyway, he died knowing that everything was "vanity" and "grasping at the wind".* Actually he died the father of high magick. Unknown to many christians, Solomon wrote many other books aside from those printed in the bible. I suggest you read "The lesser key of Solomon", or the "Goetia". Once you read his other works you will probably understand why he was considered "the wisest man in the world".(reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:57 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry to hear that you had it tough at the beginning and am equally glad that you were able to overcome obstacles to where you are today. Some have had it worse. Most of us were 'thrown into it with no education and had absolutely nothing when we left'. I can say that certainly applies to me. But I owe jackshit to 'prayers' or 'God' for any achievements I made. As Frank Sinatra sung: I did it my way. And love does exist it is an emotion a feeling of deep affection for something or someone. (reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 14:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Not to void your argument, but didn't Descartes also say that statistically it would be smarter to believe in a god just in case (s)he did exist? In any case I don't. I'm just rebelious that way.(reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 14:39 (Agree/Disagree?) cosmic, good point. Also known as Pascal's wager. Whether or not 'God' , and it would be wiser to believe that he does. But, the modern day athiest has methods to hedge the bet on God's nonexistence. I just posted an article on this and it should be up soon. But even so, after death if I 'go to hell' in a literal sense ... so what? What could be worse than what was experienced in TheFamily. Hey, all the better I might bump into Dirty Dave Berg down there, and ... who knows?(reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:52 (Agree/Disagree?) I bet we could get special positions on Satan's crack team of tormentors.(reply to this comment)

from Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:14 (Agree/Disagree?) "...I have and I found nothing but love, hope His mercy compassion and redemption..." When was the last time you read the Old Testament? (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 10:47 (Agree/Disagree?) I read it all the time. The purpose of the Old Testament was to prepare a people for the coming of the Messiah. God was not going to send his only son to a people that had no morals, no clean habits and worshipped idols. He chose the Hebrews because of his promise to Abraham about his descendants. The Hebrews had to be purged as a people and God's ordinances had to be in place before his son could come into the world. God had in place very specific customs and traditions that were necessary to bring about his purposes, there was a lot of bloodshed to ensure that all evil people and customs were crushed. Christ went into the temple and read out loud the following scripture from the Torah "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" from the book of Isaiah 61:1-2. He didn't come to destroy the law of Moses but to fulfill it, God's mercy was revealed through his son, God looks upon the sacrifice of his son and that is our attonement for sin. There is a saying that says "The Old Testament is the mystery of Christ concealed the New Testament is the mystery of Christ revealed." (reply to this comment)

From Greensack Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 19:09 (Agree/Disagree?) The purpose of the old testament was to keep a record of the transpirings of the Hebrew people. Not some sort of kinder level set of scrolls till your nation somewhere along the line achieved Jesushood! leave it to some christian to trivialize the whole Jewish tradition in one sentence. So you're obviously not Jewish, what do you know about what their history means? Do you know any practicing Jews? Jesus knew the Torah very well, maybe you should study what Jesus wasn't even too high and mighty for. You'll find that the term Messiah means only anionted one. Moses was a Messiah, and there have been a few others. Here's something interesting: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/online_messiahs.htm (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, February 18, 2005, 23:59 (Agree/Disagree?) "The Old Testament is the mystery of Christ concealed the New Testament is the mystery of Christ revealed" Perhaps you're not aware of the fact that many of the events of Jesus' life that the Book of Matthew portrays as having been foretold in the Old Testament are either historically false or are based on a misinterpretation of what the Old Testament scripture said. Herod killing all the first borns, for example, is an event that is listed only in the Book of Matthew. None of the other detailed historical writings of that time make any mention of it, which certainly they would have if such a horrific act occured. The prophecy of "out of Egypt will I call my son" is also questionable. The OT verse that was pulled from is no prophecy at all. The tense of the phrase was changed as well from past to future. When taking all accounts into consideration (there are several more inconsistencies than just these two), one might easily conclude that the story of Jesus' family's flight to Egypt is bogus. There are far more supposed messianic prophecies that do not add up, but I've listed these two as brief examples only. However, the bottom line is, if you believe in prophecy, then the New Testatment works. If you don't believe in prophecy, it is a mass of illogical conclusions based upon each other. Try reading through the Gospel of Matthew once with the perspective that prophecy does not exist or is just made up. In the cases above, it would mean that whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew found verses in the OT that were supposed to be prophecies foretelling the Messiah, and wrote the story of Jesus' life around them to prove that Jesus had fulfilled the scriptures and was, therefore, the Messiah. In the case of Jesus' prophecies, such as those in Matthew 24, it would mean that the Romans had already destroyed the temple by the time Matthew was authored. The detailed "prophecy" would have been written so as to match the events that took place. If viewing the NT from this perspective doesn't change your mind about what you believe, that's fine. But maybe it will help you better understand where an atheist or agnostic (or even a Jew for that matter) is coming from.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 17:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, I take your point, there are some things that are difficult to comprehend in the Bible and if you were to take a purely analytical point of view it would be confusing at best. However, to me there is a much deeper meaning to the Bible and my belief in God rather than facts and figures. If I sat down and picked everything apart it would destroy my faith which is strong, yet at the same time fragile. Faith is a substance and if you were to throw all these other things in and create a great ball of confusion then it would not exist at all. I believe in the Bible because it works, it works for me with all it's wisdom, depth and knowledge. For someone who is looking at it purely from a sceptical viewpoint it wouldn't make sense - I am not a Bible scholar, neither do I have all the answers. What I do know is that my conversion to Christ was real and was something that I fully describe because it happened to ME. It's almost like trying to explain to someone the feeling or the buzz you might get from a physical experience you might have had, like a bungee jump or a close call with death or an adrenaline rush, it just cannot be explained because it's so personal and becomes an intimate part of you. I don't know man, all I know is it's real and it's truly beautiful being a believer and having Him in my life:)(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, February 25, 2005, 10:39 (Agree/Disagree?) We've all heard the anecdote about the three men walking on a wall. The point of it is that fact is the only thing that remains when feelings and faith have let us down. I think too many Christians mistakenly believe that the Bible is the last man, Fact. In my opinion, the Bible is Faith, the second man, and Fact (historical events, scientific discoveries, etc.) keeps tripping Faith up or pushing him off the wall altogether. You say, "If I sat down and picked everything apart it would destroy my faith which is strong, yet at the same time fragile" I'd be interested to know what you would tell a Hindu who told you the same thing of their religion. Do you see the irony in the fact that you are able to analyse and pick apart an alternate religious faith (or lack of it), yet do not grant your own faith the same level of scrutiny?(reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 11:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Have a happy life.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 12:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you;) I fully intend to.(reply to this comment)

from Agnostic Friday, February 18, 2005 - 07:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I saw a great bumper sticker recently. It said, "I don’t know, and neither do you." No matter how much you believe, you will never really know if God exists. It may seem ironic but I have felt happier and more at peace after deciding to admit that I do not know whether a divine power exists or not. TF’s f#%$ed up doctrines and practices were one of the main reason I left the cult. I came to realize how unbiblical the doctrines were and wanted no part of it. I attended a non-denominational Christian church for a little while after leaving, but it did not take long for me to realize that religion itself was the problem. You have to have religion to have fundamentalists, and fundamentalism leads to all sorts of abuse and terrorism. I think the recent Tsunamis are a perfect example of why I am content in my position. Why on Earth would God allow simple and innocent people to be wiped out? If there is an explanation, then I don’t think anyone on Earth is privy to it. (reply to this comment)

From Gothsmack Thursday, February 24, 2005, 05:25 (Agree/Disagree?) My top pick bumper sticker would read, "I tried seeing your point of view, but I couldnt get my head that far up my ass." My second choice would read, "The only problem with Baptists is they don't hold them under long enough."(reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Friday, February 18, 2005, 08:07 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree. I'm not an athiest, neither do I completely embrace the belief in a god. I just don't know, and more and more I find it's really not that important to my life. My life is no longer dictated by my religion and the belief system it creates for me, but my life is dictated (besides by my kids) by the rules and morals I personally feel are right for me. After thinking a lot about it, I have give the LJR credit for totally destroying my relationship with Jesus. I just could NOT accept 'Jesus' as my 'lover'. He was something I needed more than a lover, he was my friend, brother, someone closer to me than a sex partner. I wasn't ready to enter into a 'sex' relationship with Jesus, and to feel that pressure on me was too much. I ran the other way. And I too have felt much more at peace after discarding the notion of a loving and caring god, for whom I was always in fear of displeasing and could never seem to please enough. I mean, each GN that came out was another admonition in something I was doing wrong, I could never be perfect enough to receive god's blessings. It was too much work, and I figured it'd be easier to go it my own, rather than depend on such a fickle god.(reply to this comment)

From conan Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:00 (Agree/Disagree?) porceleindoll, i'm sure you're aware but the current position you have on religion, and consequently on life in general makes you an agnostic. I'm one as well. I tried to be a 'good' Christian when I first left TF. I believed in that whole "the most high dwelleth not in temples" bull shit so I prayed often enough and read my Bible all in an attempt to find some sort of peace of mind. It didn't help. My prayers were, not surprisingly I suppose, never answered. The peace I sought never came. I was always curious so I studied religions in college for two semesters and started reading books by "athiestic" authors. I don't disbelieve everything. I don't deny the existence of a potential greater being. I don't believe in the god of the Christians or in Gee-zus the so called Christ. But I believe that no matter what happens after death, I'll find out when I get there. And as long as I'm not a child-molesting psychopath, I'm confident that if there is a heaven or hell, I'll end up at whichever one it is that 'good' people go to. I am not exactly successful yet, but I have more peace of mind now then I've had my entire life. I still have my Bible, but I usually use it to do lines of coke off of! An excellent book to read is "Another Roadside Attraction" by Tom Robbins. He disputes Christianity on a whole new level by destroying the fundamentals the Catholic church (and incindentally enough, all modern Christianity) was built on. I highly recommend that it be read...especially by you webel!(reply to this comment)

From Sunday, February 20, 2005, 11:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Two quotes I agree with.."to emphasize the afterlife is to deny life. To concentrate on Heaven is to create hell. In their desperate longing to transcend the disorderliness, friction, and unpredictability that pesters life; in their desire for a fresh start in a tidy habitat, germ-free and secured by angels, religious multitudes are gambling the only life they may ever have on a dark horse in a race that has no finish line." "When she was a small girl, Amanda hid a ticking clock in an old, rotten tree trunk. It drove woodpeckers crazy. Ignoring tasty bugs all around them, they just about beat their brains out trying to get at the clock. Years later, Amanda used the woodpecker experiment as a model for understanding capitalism, Communism, Christianity, and all other systems that traffic in future rewards rather than in present realities."(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh, so now you're trying to witness agnosticism to Webel? Why can't people just believe what works for them and stop trying to convert those who believe differently?(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, February 19, 2005, 11:01 (Agree/Disagree?) It'll give another(the other?) view point, one she may not have yet. At least we heard and knew quite well the view point she's coming from.(reply to this comment)

From 'witnessing agnosticism'??? Saturday, February 19, 2005, 05:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Riiiiiiight! If the mere suggestion of a book to read can be considered 'witnessing' then I must be Mother fucking Theresa! I doubt if conan was trying to do anything other than recommend a book that he had found enlightening. If webel's faith is right for her then investigating other viewpoints should not cause her to waver. Furthermore, contrary to what 'you people' (by which I mean fanatical Christians) might believe, I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU BELIEVE OR NOT! I'm not on some kind of persecution mission here. I couldn't care less about trying to 'convert' anyone to anything. Fucking grow up already!(reply to this comment)

From conan Wednesday, February 23, 2005, 09:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Me? Witness?? Puh-leeze!!! Trust me I'm not trying to convince anyone that agnosticism is the best or only route to 'enlightenment'. I was merely explaining to Webel that all of us grew up essentially believing in Christianity as it was taught to us. Many ex-members, I'm sure, still are LEGITIMATE Christians today. However, for some anonymous individuals to immediately assume that the mere suggestion of the possibilities that other realities not only exist but may have some degree of authenticity to them is witnessing...well that is asinine and bull-headed. I am not on some mission to see all the ‘saved’ be damned or any other such crap. I was trying to convey to Webel and other anonymous perpetrators that just because their fanatical beliefs in one way of life exist, does not mean that there are no other points of view or sides to the story. I explained the way that I thought and then showed the process of how I got there, thinking it would help the reader to understand my various conclusions, no matter how erroneous the reader found them to be. Oh, and the fact that a certain book was very helpful to my certain situation doesn’t mean that it will be to yours. It may help to strengthen your opposing views. But to dismiss the suggestion of it as witnessing is just ridiculous. You must realize Webel, that faith and belief are states of mind. Actually, to believe in no such existence of reality takes the same amount of faith. You have to be convinced that there is no ‘god’ or Christ when your whole life you were trained to believe there is one. I think ‘losing’ our faith was no less a momentous experience for those of us ex-members who are atheists/agnostics as it was for our parents to ‘find’ Jesus as their lord and savior. Of course, I realize that I’m wasting my time here as you can’t convince anyone to change their minds without their already being a desire to think differently. I just wish that others, who believe like you Webel, will come to the same determination and quit trying to persuade us who don’t believe (in Christianity) to do so. It’s as useless for you to convince us as it is for us to try to convince you. Don’t accuse me of witnessing though. That was a practice I quit many years before I even left TF. I have no intentions of witnessing to anyone, least of all you!(reply to this comment)

from Sinner Friday, February 18, 2005 - 05:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Let me try to argue with theology. According to the Bible God is omniscient and the cause of everything. This means that my agnosticism is just an effect traceable to the "first cause" who knew about the effect all along ---God. If an engineer creates a car with a potential to breakdown and that potential materialises accordingly who is to blame?---The car or the creator? In fact i dont believe any of what im saying above...but to you who "see the light" whose "fault" is that? (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, let me ask you a question. If an engineer creates a perfect vehicle and then someone comes and tampers with his work with the intention of destroying it, whose fault is it if it breaks down? the engineer or the vandal that ruined his creation? that is exactly what happened from the beginning of time. The reason this creation is faulty is because of the first woman (Eve) and first man (Adam) listened to the serpent (satan). Satan is in charge of this world, so blame the tsunamis on him! he is the one who made this world all snafu (situation normal all f***** up) we were all doomed until Christ came and died for the remission of sins. It took one man to overturn what another man did. God's rules were "an eye for an eye" therefore "a life for a life" the only way to satisfy that rule was for his son's life to be given for those who believe. God tested Abraham with Isaac to see if there was a man who loved him enough to give up his only son, and Abraham was willing - therefore God was willing also but he did not spare his own son but sent him to those who believe and embrace him. God created the world perfectly and everything has its own little program going (even our bodies) down to the ocean, the earth and everything that lives in this planet. That mechanism was screwed up and continues to be screwed up and the world was thrown into chaos when people turned their backs on God. Have you seen the Passion of the Christ? what an amazing film! that just says it all really! I hope this answers your question.(reply to this comment)

From steam Sunday, February 20, 2005, 17:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I appreciate where you are coming from, and I certainly do not have it all figured out. However, if "the engineer" created both the vehicle and the vandal and knew when creating the vandal that he would break the car, he would still bear responsibility for the state of the car. How do you get around this aspect of things?(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Saturday, February 19, 2005, 05:56 (Agree/Disagree?) So god is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-everything......unless something bad happens, then that's the devil's fault? I'm sure you are an intelligent person so does that seem logical to you? Let me ask you something, do you ever once stop to question the historical veracity of what you quote? You have this whole little scenario built up in your imagination that cannot stand up to even a minute amount of testing or verification. Well, facts do stand up to testing and can be verified. What can't be tested or verified can never be taken as fact. You "believe" what you believe but don't make the mistake of taking historical myths and cultural beliefs as fact or evidence. As long as you admit it is simply a belief without proof or evidence then you won't come off so naive. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 18, 2005, 10:20 (Agree/Disagree?) So satan tampered with his work(car) and it's our fault because we don't love or have faith in him-or his faulty car? (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 10:33 (Agree/Disagree?) The car was perfect, it is not the car I have faith in, it's in the engineer. The engineer is returning to make a brand new car and I intend to be on that car through choice, through love, through what he means to me not through fear or the right pigs ear of things that satan and man has made of christianity.(reply to this comment)

From sinner Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:02 (Agree/Disagree?) You say someone "tampered with the car"...who supposedly made the properties of satan...knowing the result effect? Who designed his potential? Thats like creating a computer and then creating a virus.... You forget that satan and all his properties are just an effect derived from the first cause. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Anything that is good has the potential to be bad also, those are the rules made by the Engineer. Pride comes before a fall and that was when Satan fell - he is the link in the chain, the piece of machinery that ruined this whole earth and he continues to ruin it but one day God will restore it, but anyway, I could talk about this until I'm blue in the face but ultimately the answer lies in the heart of every person, to decide for themselves what they want to seek out and believe. I rest my case.(reply to this comment)

From Gothsmack Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:45 (Agree/Disagree?) *Anything that is good has the potential to be bad also* Does this also apply to God, who is allegedly "good"? (reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 11:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't want to rain on your parade ... but ... there was no 'Eve', 'Adam', or serpent. It's just an analogy to teach little lessons. Just like the story of Pinnochio, The Three Little Pigs, Noah's Ark, etc. As for 'Jesus is returning': PLEASE!!! Christians have been saying this for eons many of them look for current events to label as 'Signs of the times'. The 'second coming of Christ', 'Jesus saying that he is the son of God' wasn't at all meant to be taken literally. Don't forget that the bible wasn't originally in English. Much of the English interpretations can be misinterpreted.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 12:24 (Agree/Disagree?) That's ok, you are not raining on my parade, there is no parade to rain on. It's a belief that I have and the truth that I have decided to believe in, it may not be true to you, but it's true to me. I know the concept of Christ coming back freaks a lot of people out. It did me once. I remember at midnight on New Years Eve, 1993 (When Berg predicted Christ was supposed to return) my sister and I looked at the clock at the stroke of midnight and said hey, looks like he's either late or not returning! either way, it was a false prophesy and laughed our heads off! A few years later I had a very deep spiritual experience and I am in no doubt that what I believe is real. Therefore I believe the Bible and I believe in God and that Christ is the Messiah and that one day he will return. I don't know if he will come back in our lifetime (whose to say?) but I live my life in this way: I plan for the next 50 years ie, pension plan, college fund for kids, mortgage etc but live as if he is coming tomorrow by following his path and growing and progressing as a person and making the most of the time I'm here. It's my intention not ashamed of my life and the way I chose to live it when he returns (whenever that may be). (reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 14:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Noooo wayyy!! You actually waited in the eve of 1993 for Jesus to come back? That's great! I beg your apologies for not accompanying you as I couldn't be bothered. New Years Eve was the only time in a year that we got to eat ice cream in the home I was at. It was also puzzling as to who exactly was "the antichrist"? and where was the "great tribulation", "the battles of gog and eggnog" etc? but I didn't care as I happily ate the choc chip icecream and enjoyed the 2-day family day. Good luck with the rapture next time! P.S. If heaven and hell do exist in the literal sense, then I think I would be happier in hell. It sounds more fun and I'll get to meet people (like me) who don't believe in fidelity.(reply to this comment)

From Mir Saturday, February 26, 2005, 11:45 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL!!! I'm not surprised you couldn't be bothered sweetheart, you were only 9!!!! That's exactly what you should be doing as a 9 year old! Eating ice cream and not thinking further than tomorrow! By 1993 we knew that the whole thing was a load of crap, so we laughed our arses off (it helped that we were drunk and stoned of course:-) You've got to understand that things were very different for us being 11 & 12 years older than you ;-)(reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Friday, February 18, 2005, 16:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I do believe I was also anxiously waiting Jesus' arrival towards the end of 1993. It gave me great cheer to know that the life I was living wasn't supposed to last that long. But of course, when Jesus didn't show up, oh the disappointment! I still don't know why I didn't leave then, I think it had to do with the letters about IRFers beware, Backsliders Beware, and the propaganda produced by the cult to convince me I would be severly punished if I left. And so I tried very hard to dutifully believe it all, practice it all, and wrap all doubts up in a bundle of faith, hidden on some shelf of my mind so they wouldn't corrupt my heart. Honestly though, I don't think I ever truly believed Jesus would come back, nor did I believe we would have superpowers in the ET, nor did I believe in the miracle of healing... I tried to believe, but deep down was always the question, and when Jesus didn't come back, I was let down, but it also confirmed what I already knew, our lives were destined to failure cause we believed too many things that just weren't true.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Well have fun(reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I will and don't forget to write (reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 14:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Heaven for climate, Hell for company. (James M Barrie) We must prefer real Hell to an imaginary paradise. (Simone Weil)(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Speak for yourself(reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:49 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm pretty damned (get it? Damned?) sure that's what I was doing.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, February 28, 2005, 10:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think quoting famous people qualifies as speaking for yourself.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Monday, February 28, 2005, 11:06 (Agree/Disagree?) I like this quote: Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde (reply to this comment)

from Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005 - 03:03 (Agree/Disagree?) My decision - though that is not the best of terms since I'd hardly consider it a 'decision' as such, much more an inevitable and automatic result of my progression along the path of unafraid questioning and honest contemplation - not to believe in a Divine Power of any kind really had nothing at all to with my experience in TF. I don't relate the two in any real sense. (reply to this comment)

from Baxter Friday, February 18, 2005 - 02:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Murphy's Law: The light at the end of the tunnel is most likely the headlamps of the oncoming express train. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Monday, February 28, 2005, 08:38 (Agree/Disagree?) It's in a Metallica song too. Maybe they were fans of the guy as well.(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 19:28 (Agree/Disagree?) -Except that it's "freight train" in No Leaf Clover. :D Not that it makes a real difference. L. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Wednesday, March 02, 2005, 19:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I was aware of the difference ;0). It's pretty much the same idea.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:40 (Agree/Disagree?) That Murphy guy is full of wise sayings. My Dad quotes him all the time. His favorite one is "if it doesn't fit force it, if it breaks it was meant to be replaced anyways." Needless to say it seems a lot of things needed to be replaced. lol(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Monday, February 28, 2005, 07:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Aah, the font of Irish wisdom. (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Friday, February 18, 2005, 20:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Some of these are pretty good indeed :) http://dmawww.epfl.ch/roso.mosaic/dm/murphy.html(reply to this comment)

from weegirlie Friday, February 18, 2005 - 02:06 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm glad you say that you can respect other people's opinions, but why do you presume that we who don't believe in Christianity (or any religion for that matter) haven't "searched for the truth"? As it happens, I am an agnostic for the very reason that I have "searched" and found that there is absolutely no proof of any form of a god. You refer to the Bible as though it is some factual book which divulges the secrets of life, when really it is a nice little book of fables. If you find happiness and fulfillment by taking those fables literally and basing your life around them then that's fine and I'm happy for you. I just can't stand people assuming that we don't believe in God out of ignorance. Religion is essentially based on faith (the same thing you need to believe in Santa) and as a person who likes to base my beliefs on facts I would find it ludicrous to have my whole life revolve around something which is entirely unfactual. As Christian has said below, I have essentially "found the light". I live a happy, satisfied life not believing in God. I never feel my life is any more empty without believing in one and don't regret my decision or look back with fondness at the time when I believed unquestionably. I see it as the same as most adults would see looking back at when they still believed Santa existed and have a little chuckle and their own naivety. On a final point, at least as far I am concerned, you're wrong to assume that I don't believe in God because of anything taught to me in the Family. My decision was made purely because once I was able to think for myself and contemplate the subject properly it just didn't make sense anymore. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:15 (Agree/Disagree?) "I am an agnostic for the very reason that I have 'searched' and found that there is absolutely no proof of any form of a god." Belief in God should not be based on proof. Religion is not science. The existence of God or the validity of the Bible will never be entirely confirmed, which is why belief in God and the Bible takes faith. I personally believe in God and the Bible, but not because it can be proved (because it can't). I simply have faith in it. I too have searched for "proof" of God's existence and I have found that it all comes down to subjective evaluations of what the evidence means. God is a spirit, and thus it makes little sense to use physical evidence or human rationale to prove or disprove his existence. It's an exercise in futility. That said, when dealing with non-spiritual issues, I am very skeptical. I critically evaluate statements and evidence before I come to a conclusion. This is because we can use science and human reason to explain physical phenomena. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Whoa take a chill pill! why are you so angry? your words come across as very angry and beligerent. If you are so confident in what you believe in, why the anger? for your information what I believe in is not comparative to believing in "Santa Claus" that is an extremely shallow analogy. The Bible is not a book of fables either. Just because Christianism has been around for a while and people have been disilusioned with what tyrants have done with Christianity they think God IS what man represents him to be. Well he is not. Why are people happy respecting religions such as Buddhism and Islam and do not extend that same courtesy and respect to my religion? Then again the Bible says not everyone is meant to believe because faith is a gift from God. Obviously you haven't reached that point in your life that I have and perhaps you never will. And now I ask you - if there is no God then what is the point of existance? furthermore, why do we even exist?(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, February 26, 2005, 13:09 (Agree/Disagree?) We exist because mommy and daddy got to fucking one night. If you expect others to respect your belief in christ, you must respect their belief in Santa. By the way, my imaginary friend is better than yours! So there!(reply to this comment)

From openmind Friday, February 18, 2005, 14:32 (Agree/Disagree?) quote: "Whoa take a chill pill! why are you so angry? your words come across as very angry and beligerent. If you are so confident in what you believe in, why the anger?" Look who's talking.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Well after reading these ignoramous comments I sure am pissed off now! screw talking about stuff that is just going to land on deaf ears and narrow mindedness.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I disagree with your assessment of weegirlie's comments. They did not come across as 'angry and belligerent', in my view. I think you might be the one who isn't confident in what you believe, if someone's comments explaining why they do not share your faith can put you on the defensive so easily. *You might consider the comparison between the notion of a God and that of Santa Claus as shallow, but to me it seems perfectly fitting. *You might not consider The Bible to be a book of fables, but weegirlie is entitled to hold that opinion, just as you are entitled to hold yours. *Disillusionment is not the only reason a person might have for choosing not to believe. For me, it was the realisation that there is a choice involved in believing that finally sealed the deal. I truly have no need for the wholly human construct of a diety. *People? Who is 'people' exactly? I feel no need to respect religions. I respect people, but only those who have gained my respect. I have very close friends who are still firm believers, and I respect their choice to follow whatever religion they choose. *To me, there is no point to existence, and no universal truth to be found. I give my life meaning. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 10:29 (Agree/Disagree?) So if there is no point to existence that what meaning could you possibly find to your life? kinda contradictory don't you think? I never said that weegirl wasn't entitled to her opinion, but writing off someones belief as a "fable" is insulting. My faith is not a fable neither is your choice not to believe in anything. What a person believes is real to them and nobody can take that belief away, only that person can change there minds if they want to. The whole point of my article is to share my opinion with those who aren't sure what to believe, and are confused by TF's disgusting potrayal as God being a "penie man" who wants to have sex with them! I am sure many kids were very traumatized by this and rightfully so. Their faith in God was very genuine until it was utterly ruined by this sickening doctrine. However, those who are quite happy and settled in what they believe, great I wish them all the best.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 10:35 (Agree/Disagree?) And there is the crux of the matter. You choose to believe in order to feel that there is a meaning to life. I choose to find meaning in life itself. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 10:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Of course life itself means something, it means we breathe, it means we have life in us, it means we get up in the morning, make coffee go to work, whatever - and after that what? my question to you is, in all the mundane tasks that you do each day, what are they for? what is the purpose? aren't we more than chickens who are born, breed and then die?(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, February 18, 2005, 17:23 (Agree/Disagree?) We ARE more than chickens who are born, breed, and die. We are humans who are born, (hopefully don't) breed, and then die.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 11:21 (Agree/Disagree?) So, you are saying that all that lies within you is mundane, that without your God you have no substance and no understanding of the richness of life? No appreciation of the depth of feeling that one can find in love, friendship, music, creativity, children, beauty, nature, solitude, and a thousand other treasures??? Then, truly, I understand why you need your faith. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 12:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Absolutely. All the things that you enjoy are the things that he made. Without God you and I wouldn't be here and there would be nothing. Man is base, the only nobility and beauty that exists in mankind is God, whether you choose to believe in him or not is irrelevant. He formed everything including the heart that despises him and the lips that curse him, but one day everyone is going stand before him and give an account for their decisions. I am glad you understand why I need my faith, there is nothing wrong with admitting that I need my savior. I do, more than anything, but that does not detract from having self esteem and believing in myself and my achievements, God is my primary purpose and my reason for living and for getting up in the morning, and he is the center of my life my husband, my stepson, and my family are the inner circle of my heart and they are the blessings he has given me in this life that I treasure and care for but without God I would have none of those things. You may argue that you have lots of things but you don't believe in God - maybe so, but in this life there are no guarantees, it could all be gone tomorrow. I have lost everything and I mean EVERYTHING and it took that to find my God. I know if I was to lose everything again, I would survive because I have Him.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 13:51 (Agree/Disagree?) ...Sigh... Someone please tell me why I bother? Webel, you can, and should, only speak for yourself. Your views would be better received if you were to begin your statements with 'I believe that...' rather than presuming that your notion of 'truth' is somehow paramount. You must learn that God exists to you because you believe in Him. That doesn't actually mean that there is a God. He does not exist to me, therefore He IS NOT. What you believe is irrelevant to me. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:23 (Agree/Disagree?) It doesn't really matter how I say it, people are either going to believe it or not. Very sad how so many people have turned away from God in this site, I believe that once as children, many people here did believe in God, and now don't because of all the terrible things that happened to them. If you can't be bothered then don't respond and what you DON'T believe is irrelevant to me also. (reply to this comment)

From Saturday, February 19, 2005, 14:16 (Agree/Disagree?) My mom says that too, "It's so sad that you don't believe in God" and I have to say the same thing back- It's sad that she does believe IMO, that through her blind faith she has gotten into the most harmful and ridiculas of situations and made bad choices for herself and her family,(after TF) still, because of her christian beliefs. (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Nothing terrible happened to me in the cult. I was a firm believer until a year ago when I woke up one day and had the sudden realisation that I no longer had any need at all for a belief system. So I discarded it. I was very vocal about my faith on this site for the first two years or so that I posted here, although I must say I was careful not to preach and I think I was always mindful to articulate my faith as a PERSONAL CONVICTION and not necessarily 'the truth' for everyone. I have responded to your comments so far because I was attempting to help you to understand my position. I have already said that I respect your right to your faith. It's your tone that offends me. You seem to find my views threatening, so I will wrap up my participation in this discussion. (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 16:28 (Agree/Disagree?) And to close, a comment I posted a while back: "From Vicky Monday, May 24, 2004, 14:00 (Agree/Disagree?) In my own life this is a very current issue, as I have just recently decided that I have absolutely no need for a belief in God. This was a sudden thing, from one day to the next, and in my own mind shows the end of my childhood and my subsequent entrance into 'real life'. This represents a major shift for me, as I have always considered my faith to be an integral part of my life. It was a complete surprise to me to one day realise that I had no further need to lean on anything other than my own strength, and I went through a period of grieving for the end of my innocence, as it were - I felt like a child who had just figured out that Santa isn't real, there aren't any fairies, and no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... It has been a very surreal experience for me, with some questions along the way, such as was I betraying a fundamental part of myself in wiping out my belief system in such an abrupt manner, and would I find myself unable to connect with my emotions if I cut off one of the major areas in which I have always felt something special within myself... etc, etc. I found it unbelievably scary in one sense, but it also felt totally right, and still does. So yes, in a very real sense, God has died. But He is dead not because of disappointment, anger or secret bitterness against Him, but because He never was alive to begin with. I have witnessed the demise of an Entity whose existence formed the basis of much of my thought process, wielding enormous influence in my life and permeating every fibre of my being, yet I feel no palpable sense of loss. I feel no loss because I lost nothing."(reply to this comment)

From Cosmicblip Friday, February 18, 2005, 13:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I like the way Philip K Dick put it: Reality is what continues to be real after you stop believing in it.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Hmmmmm. A 'diety'? Is that a God who helps one stick to Atkins? If so, I might want to worship Her! : P (reply to this comment)

From weegirlie Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not at all angry actually. I just take offence to you labelling me as ignorant or "behind you" somehow, because I don't believe in a God. And actually I have reached the point in life that you are at and gone beyond it to reach a sensible conclusion. So get off your moral high horse and start acting like what a Christian is "supposed" to act like.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:40 (Agree/Disagree?) And what is that exactly? someone with no backbone? I don't think so, that's just ain't me - sorry! and I don't recall mentioning anywhere in my article that "weegirl is behind me and ignorant" you have made that assesment for yourself! I am glad you think I am on a high horse, I intend to stay there. So grow up and stop putting words there that I never said.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:04 (Agree/Disagree?) having a backbone is great. let's not forget its also good to have a brain(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Well I thank the good Lord that I am in possession of both.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 18, 2005, 15:35 (Agree/Disagree?) then may I suggest using the section that's designed to think logically (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Why don't you take the pill yourself ,Dude! I'm really tired of people getting all shocked at finding that people are angry. Do you read your bible? Because if you do, you will find plenty about anger in there both good and bad.I have never yet met a Budhist who was half as obnoxious as a Christian, and to hell with gods gifts. As far as the reason for existing--I havent a clue but I can assure you that neither you or anyone else will ever convince me that God is the reason for my existance.(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Whatever "dude". I have met obnoxious people myself and yes, many of them have been Christians but there are also some very nice ones too. There is good and bad everywhere you go! I have had to separate them from the character and person of God, because he is not them! there is a clear distinction here! and if you are tired of reading about God well then don't read my article - who is forcing you?(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 25, 2005, 13:03 (Agree/Disagree?) In your religion you should CAPITALIZE "He" as a sign of respect. (Though why God would need a penis is beyond me...) (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, February 25, 2005, 13:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Same reason I need one -- to piss all over people He doesn't like (which is pretty much everyone).(reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 25, 2005, 17:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Not into water sports then Joe!? ;p (reply to this comment)

From Friday, February 25, 2005, 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Well you're right there!(reply to this comment)

from RR Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 21:33 (Agree/Disagree?) God Bless You! (reply to this comment)

From Christian Thursday, February 17, 2005, 22:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Like you said you respect the opinions of the people on this site. So I'd like to express mine. I left the family with complete disillusionment and i decided to search for the truth myself. I still remained a christian but i left my mind open to all things. And i came to a conclusion that christianty is only a lesser evil and continued to search for what i believed in. And i came to a realization that there is no god and that belief is just an illusion to give you hope for this life and that we are actually here alone in this world and we have to make the best of it ourselves. And no that i have no religious or spiritual beliefs of any kind i have found complete peace, confidence and am happy with life i have never felt better and my life is complete and full. I finally have the life that i want. So to summarize I too have found the light Chris(reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:37 (Agree/Disagree?) That's great! I am glad that you are happy with what you believe in and the path you have chosen.(reply to this comment)

From Jedran Friday, February 18, 2005, 00:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Christianity is a lesser evil compared to what? (reply to this comment)

From xolox Saturday, February 19, 2005, 11:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I'll take that one: Christianity the lesser evil compared to Beatings, torture, burnings, the rack, cruxifiction, thumb screws, shin boots, the iron maiden, slow roastings, quarterings and genocides. Oh wait, my bad, no it's not!(reply to this comment)

From Christian Saturday, February 19, 2005, 01:34 (Agree/Disagree?) To the cult Jedran no offense meant to your beliefs just my opinion(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Friday, February 18, 2005, 05:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Religous cults? I agree with christian, weegirlie and Vicky. TF had nothing do do with my final decision/conclusion. And as vicky said, it isn't really a choice at the end of the day, as I can't "unlearn" the reasons why I have come to think the way I do. Family, fidelity and living a good life does not come exclusivly through a faith system and can be gained as an agnostic or athiest, or not, but the same also applies to christians.(people of faith) I am happy that you have found peace and a wonderful husband, you deserve nothing less. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, February 18, 2005, 09:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you my dear:) even though our opinions continue to differ, I always remember you as a dear friend. I am glad you found happiness with your man also:)(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Saturday, February 19, 2005, 12:32 (Agree/Disagree?) As I you. I did find it surprising that you went back to God at first, but I have and will always respect you for the person you are. I have a few theories though. Parents hold a great deal of power over their children, the unconditional love factor has a lot to do with it. Children need and want their parents love and if that love is presented /perceived as being "conditional" it can drive the child to or away from the parent(s). For instance, a child with a homophobic parent(s) will struggle to "come out" and may never do, leading to surpression and leading an unhappy, unfulfilled, life, or they may live a double life but feel guilt, or the worst case scenario drugs and alcohol and potentially suicide. Esp in young adult boys. Children can also negate and deny abuse from parents and will stick up for the parent at all costs, even to himself. Seen in disosiative disorders and such. And by internalizing anger, self harm coming from deep felt insecurities but unable to express the anger to the parent, so turns on ones self. It is notable that the bible says to head your parents advice and obey them in the lord. A verse used by the cult as an exceptable reason not to obey their parents as they were of the system and the Devil. So as I see it it can be used both ways. Have you considered that your faith is due to a bond you treasure with your mom? For instance my mother is a christian and as much as I would love to please her by "seeing the light" I haven't and don't believe I will. (I hope she doesn't take this as a rejection of her as it is not) As you mentioned your mom as an influencing factor, have you wondered if it is her love that you are feeling when you say you feel God's love? Are you sure that, it's not your moms faith has kept you feeling protected and safe but you atribute this to a diety? Just a few thoughts that ran through my mind.(BTW your mom has been there for me. she is a legend and I learnt a great deal from her.) Keeping someone in your prayers is keeping someone in your thoughts, who you feel highly off. So in that sense you are in my prayers too. ;) (Sorry if this was a bit rushed) (reply to this comment)

From moon beam Saturday, February 19, 2005, 12:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I was going to also mention the whole Adam and Eve story in relation to either staying submissive to God or tasting the apple of knowledge and how the church has used this as a bad analogy of diobeying your parents. (reply to this comment)