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from oldtimer May 13, 2004 - 12:34 Boy, that sure makes me PROUD to be an "APOSTATE"!!! WHEW--IT JUST POPS MY BUTTONS! I read recently, on another exer website, an e-mail from someone actually wanting to JOIN the current COG/FOL cult. I'm cutting-and-pasting it here: In reponse to his online e-mail I wrote: Hi. I am an ex-member of the Children of God/Family of love. I was in from November 1971 through July 1974, and did come to Christ AFTER joining the group. God told me to leave. Do not join them. Here's a profile of cult leaders. Since the top leadership LEFT the Scriptures, the corruption spread ALL THE WAY DOWN, and the group descended into everything the Bible says about false prophets, false Christians, false apostles, etc. Anyway, here's the profile of cult leaders. If you have only been exposed to the PUBLIC doctrines of the Family, I can understand your interest. The PRIVATE doctrines are completely perverse and EVIL. Do not participate in their spiritual filth--you'll regret it; I promise. http://rightcyberup.org/mckean.html#leader http://www.fwselijah.com/psychopa.htm Intro Characteristics of a Cult Leader Trait 1: Glibness/superficial charm Trait 2: Manipulative and conning Trait 3: Grandiose sense of self Trait 4: Pathological lying Trait 5: Lack of remorse, shame or guilt Trait 6: Shallow emotions Trait 7: Incapacity for love Trait 8: Need for stimulation Trait 9: Callousness/lack of empathy Trait 10: Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature Trait 11: Early behavior problems/juvenile delinquency Trait 12: Irresponsibility/unreliability Trait 13: Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity Trait 14: Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle Trait 15: Criminal or entrepreneurial versatility Trait 1: Glibness/superficial charm Able to use language effortlessly to beguile, confuse, and convince. They are captivating storytellers. They exude self-confidence and are able to spin a web that intrigues others and pulls them into the [cult leader’s] life…most of all, they are persuasive. Frequently, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or disarm them emotionally. Trait 2: Manipulative and conning Do not recognize the individuality or rights of others, which makes all self-serving behaviors permissible. [a most common manipulation is]…the psychopathic maneuver, which is essentially interpersonal manipulation “based on charm. The manipulator appears to be helpful, charming even ingratiating or seductive, but is covertly hostile, domineering…” Trait 3: Grandiose sense of self Enjoys tremendous feelings of entitlement…[and]…believes everything is owed to him as a right. Preoccupied with his own fantasies, he must always be the center of attention. He presents himself as the ‘Ultimate One’: enlightened, a vehicle of god, a genius, the leader of humankind, and sometimes even the most humble of humble. He has an insatiable need of adulation and attendance. His grandiosity may also be a defense against inner emptiness, depression, and a sense of insignificance…paranoia often accompanies the grandiosity, reinforcing the isolation of the group and the need for protection against a perceived hostile environment. In this way, he creates an us-versus-them mentality. Trait 4: Pathological lying Lie coolly and easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful. It is almost impossible for them to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue. They lie for no apparent reason, even when it would seem easier and safer to tell the truth…[and are pathological liars, as they]…tend to create a complex belief system, often about their own powers and abilities, in which they themselves sometimes get caught up. It is often difficult to determine whether the lies are an actual delusional distortion of reality or are expressed with the conscious or unconscious intent to deceive…[and]…these manipulators are rarely original thinkers. Plagiarists and thieves, they seldom credit the true originators of ideas, often co-opting authorship… Trait 5: Lack of remorse, shame or guilt See those around them as objects, targets, or opportunities, not as people. They do not have friends, they have victims and accomplices – and the latter frequently end as victims. For [cult leaders], the ends always justify the means. Thus there is no place for feelings of remorse, shame, or guilt. Cult leaders feel justified in all their actions since they consider themselves the ultimate moral arbiter. Nothing gets in their way. Trait 6: Shallow emotions Hiding behind the “mask of sanity”, the cult leader exposes feelings insofar as they serve an ulterior motive. He/she (Zerby!) can witness or order acts of utter brutality without experiencing a shred of emotion. He/she casts him[her]self in a role of total control, which he/she plays to the hilt. What is most promised in cults – peace, joy, enlightenment, love, and security – are goals that are forever out of reach of the leader, and thus also the followers. Since the leader is not genuine, neither are his promises. Trait 7: Incapacity for love As the “living embodiment of God’s love,” the leader is tragically flawed in being able to either give or receive love… The leader’s tremendous need to be loved is accompanied by an equally strong disbelief in the love offered him by his followers…[and]…hence the often unspeakably cruel and harsh testing of his devotees. Unconditional surrender is an absolute requirement… Trait 8: Need for stimulation [Exhibits] thrill-seeking behaviors, often skirting the letter or spirit of the law, are common among [cult leaders]…[and]…live[s] on the edge, constantly testing the beliefs of their followers, often with increasingly bizarre behaviors, punishments, and rules. Other mechanisms of stimulation come in the form of unexpected, seemingly spontaneous outbursts, which usually take the form of verbal abuse and sometimes physical punishment. The [cult leader] has a cool indifference to things around him/her, yet his/her icy coldness can quickly turn into rage, vented on those around him/her. Trait 9: Callousness/lack of empathy Readily take advantage of others, expressing utter contempt for anyone else’s feelings. Someone in distress is not important to them. Although intelligent, perceptive, and quite good at sizing people up, they make no real connections with others. They use their “people skills” to exploit, abuse, and wield power…[and]…are unable to empathize with the pain of their victims… Trait 10: Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature Have difficulty regulating their emotions, like small children . Adults who have temper tantrums are frightening to be around. Rage and abuse, alternating with token expressions of love and approval, produce an addictive cycle for both abuser and abused, as well as create a sense of hopelessness in the latter…[and]… believes himself/herself to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and entitled to every wish, someone who has no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for the impact on those around himher…[and]…generally this aberrant behavior is a well-kept secret, known only to a few disciples. The others see only perfection… Trait 11: Early behavior problems/juvenile delinquency Frequently have a history of behavioral and academic difficulties. They often “get by” academically, conning other students and teachers. Encounters with juvenile authorities are frequent….Equally prevalent are difficulties in peer relationships and developing and keeping friends, marked control problems, and other aberrant behaviors such as stealing, fire setting, and cruelty to others. Trait 12: Irresponsibility/unreliability Not concerned about the consequences of their behavior, [they]…leave behind them the wreckage of others’ lives and dreams. They may be totally oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they inflict on others, something which they regard as neither their problem nor their responsibility…[and they]…rarely accept blame for their failures or mistakes. Scapegoating is common, blaming followers, those outside the group, a member’s family, the government, Satan – anyone and everyone but the leader… Trait 13: Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, polygamy, rape, and sexual acting out of all sorts are frequently practiced by cult leaders. Conversely, there is often stringent sexual control of the followers through such tactics as enforced celibacy, arranged marriages, forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from their parents, forced abortions or mandated births. For [them], sex is primarily a control and power issue… Trait 14: Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle Tend to move around a lot, making countless efforts at “starting over” while seeking out fertile new ground to exploit…[and…the flip side of this erratic life planning is the all-encompassing promise for the future that the cult leader makes to his/her followers. Many groups claim as their goal world domination or salvation at the Apocalypse. The leader is the first to proclaim the utopian nature of the group, which is usually simply another justification for irrational behavior and stringent controls…[and]…the leader’s sense of entitlement is often demonstrated by the contrast between his/her luxurious lifestyle and the impoverishment of his/her followers…[and]…most…are supported by gifts and donations from their followers, who may be pressured to turn over much of their income and worldly possessions to the group… Trait 15: Criminal or entrepreneurial versatility Change their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and litigation, to increase income, and to recruit a range of members…[and they]… have an innate ability to attract followers who have the skills and connections that the leaders lack. The longevity of the group is dependent on the willingness of the leadership to adapt as needed and preserve the group… Sincerely, ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ He wrote back: hi, thanks for your very intersting article... i saw a lot of myself in some of the points you mentioned - perhaps thats why im drawn to a lot of cults like scientology and the family... but seriously I AM a Born again christian. I see whats happening with the church, we were missionaries for 5 years and the church rarely assisted us.. in general they mocked , criticised and scorned us because we were "Jesusfreaks". I realise theres nothing perfect on the planet... and; i do mky best to be a good christian... but we are tired of arguing with people... we just want to preach the Kingdom of God ... and thats it.. i dont believe in an organised religious church... as i see it as evolving ALWAYS into a form of abuse- whether financial, spiritual, emotional or any other way... we do have a vision to take the gospel to the world, but it is non-denominational.. belive me when i say; we have experienced the variety of churches at first hand... and we know now that unless we get the real thing; theres no way that we will join any regular church in the future. we want to see Jesus retake HIS church... until then we follow HIM and HIM only.... bless you bro' ________________________________________________ I answered: I thank you for your prompt response. I'd like to know more about you and yours; seriously. One response I want to make is to recall the period of time after the cult membership, and to try to relate that to you. I learned to just hear from God for myself, and that I had "no need that any man (in particular) teach me". Read 1 John 2: 15-17, 20, 21, & 24-27. I learned that God's Word calls the Jews, and His Son, the Messiah, among other things, Rachel ("Rachel is weeping"), Jacob/Israel, and, yes, David. Berg applied Messianic prophecies to himself. And any authentic Gospel truths he used, he stole--from his mom (who faked a back injury, and lied about a "deathbed healing" for "ministry purposes"), Christian and Missionary Alliance and other "Baptacostals"--the other stuff he stole from several cults (Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, etc.), the American Communist Party, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum! "No new thing under the sun"--including the Greek Temple Prostitute gig, lawlessness, or so-called "freedom " and "Law of Love" (called heresy [antinomianism] in the early church), and so on, and so forth. So much for "original sin" (bad joke)! Corny. Stupid. And I fell for it, because I rejected the Gospel, 12 or more times, while in high school and college, and got into drugs, Eastern religions and the occult. I got what was left--because of my willful ignorance and chosen unbelief of the Gospel. Existence in this world is not static--you're either living in what Eph 2: 1-3 describes , or in the grace of God. Paul said God revealed to him that his "ignorance and unbelief" was overlooked by God's own mercy alone, not because Paul was such a cool, hip guy! The so-called Family is described in 2 Peter 2, as well as in many other Scriptures; basically everything God's Word warns us, regarding false Christians, false apostles and false prophets (i.e.: The Family, its leaders, and David Berg/Ms. Zerby & Mr. Peter, in that order). I also had to learn that I wasn't the first one to come into the Kingdom of God, and had a lot to learn from others. I also learned how wrong I could be about the type of so-called "evangelism" I learned from my past. I saw several groups go south on that one. they were all former "Jesus Freaks"--"hippier than thou" stunted ministries--JPUSA, Jesus People Army, Shiloh Youth Revival Centers--all of them. I "affiliated" for a while, trying to "recover" what the COG had lost. Useless. And God didn't want me to try to do that in the first place. I even tried, more than once, to build a "recovery center" for ex-members. The "ex-hippie" ministries didn't last--abiding fruit determines your actual discipleship (John 15). Like Walter Martin, probably the pre-eminent expert ever on cults, said, "Christian communes hardly ever work". He also said that, "in general the cults represent the earnest attempt of millions of people to find the fulfillment of deep and longing needs of the human spirit, which most of them seem not to have found in the established churches", but then added that "a man who will not stand for something is quite liable to fall for almost anything". In the Book of Acts, attendance at the Feast of Tabernacles brought thousands of Jews to the then quite small city of Jerusalem, and, fifty days later, at the day of Pentecost (that's what the word means), after around eight thousand people were being saved, of course they lived together for awhile--it was then physically impossible to do otherwise. Later, Paul wrote the Thessalonians,and told them to quit acting, basically, "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good", and to stop abusing food, drink and other Christians at communion services, and that if they insisted on their right to do so, they should stay in "their own houses!" Like Homer Simpson says, "Doh!". Forsaking all, a la COG/FOL, is no different than the smarmy, phony TV "evangelists" having you "send in your money to Gawd", in care of their address. Doh! Doh! Doh! 2 Cor 11:3,4 says what we shouldn't do, concerning "false apostles/false brethren" and the rest of that chapter says we're not to follow them, especially those whose behavior is to "enslave & exploit you"..."take advantage of you"..."slap you in the face" (see 2 Cor 11:19,20), or we'll end up being grieved over by God's real Christian people, like most of the now ex-member FGA's, now, who will, like Paul (the estimates are that there are now around 30,000 of us), "...be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged" (see 2 Cor 11:21 NIV). There are reasons we shouldn't live communally, especially as a requirement for discipleship. Get over it! It's not Scriptural. Berg deceived unsanctified, untaught spiritual babies to copy him because they lived together, which provided opportunity for the Matt 5:28 lusting in the first place, and then "confusion, and every evil work! He had us right where he wanted us, to feed his megalomaniacal evil perversions! His literature, that designed for "private consumption", is the proof of it. Berg, according to his own writings, committed incest and child molestation! What does it take to convince people that his self-avowed "wisdom" is "earthly, sensual and devilish"? (See James 3) Those following this should be punished to the full extent of the laws of the countries where these abominations have been committed, and the so-called "Family's" so-called "leaders" should stop all funds to World Services, and should repent, find jobs, and help restore their own children. They should stop the horror before God has to justly recompense them for troubling His spiritual children (2 Thes 1:6), but especially their physical children, their pitiable "Jesus Babies". Those who stay will "reap the whirlwind", as one SGA, who has now turned atheistic, has warned. To the current members, I say, like the old song we sang in the COG/FOL, "get ready for your sea cruise", via the millstone God will soon put around your neck for offending the faith of these little ones. Paul, stay completely away from these "wolves in sheep's clothing". My wife and I just put up a friend for a whole year, because someone whom he tried to help as a Christian, blew his brains out in our friend's mobile home. Many years ago, our friend had gone to India with Youth with a Mission, and had rounded up starving Indians from the streets of Calcutta with Mother Theresa's group, etc. He led a few people to Christ, but doesn't know what happened to them, either right after their born-again experience or thereafter. Long story short--I found out that my friend was not a missionary, but a Gospel bum, by the disrespectful and totally selfish and carnal behaviors he exhibited while in my home (read James). I talked to the person who would have helped him to get to India ( a real missionary and pastor), and it became obvious that that was not going to happen, nor did our friend really want it to, since he had a virtually free ride with us--we spent over $10, 000.00 on supporting him over the last year (what he would have had to have paid to actually consider himself a "roommate"), including the free car we gave him (value: ~$3,000.00). He ate up, by the second week of every month, the pittance we "charged" him ( we would have returned it to him had he really been going to India). When we bought our first house last year, and both lost our jobs, he offered no help. God provided, as He always does. Our friend wanted to call himself a missionary, and disobey Heb 10:25, and wanted to delude himself about his relationship with God, and his real place in the Kingdom, while in the world. He was faking it, even to himself. We had to reprove,rebuke and exhort him, (2Tim2) and nearly force him to leave our home and support himself (Gal 6, 2Tim 2:24-26, etc.). We also had to do Mt 18 "church discipline" on him. It worked. He's restored, now, and is supporting himself, has his own place, and has returned to daily fellowship with God, which he had abandoned when he decided he was "entitled" to what we gave as a gift. But he just wanted to go!!!! Never mind that he wasn't really called to do so. And when God did not supply or open doors, he became what he really was, a big spiritual baby and a self-deceived mooch. He also put on about 50 pounds while with us--he turned down a free membership with us at our gym. Way back when, when I "forsook all" (Lk14:33) to a false prophet and those he had trained to be my "leaders", in spite of warnings in Matt 24, 2Cor 11, etc., etc., it took a big chunk out of my life, which I greatly regret. So, make sure you're not just all hyped up on yourself, and that you actually have a call from God. You'll regret it concerning the abuse of your family it will inevitably cause, and at the Judgment, you'll give account for it. 1Cor 3 talks about "wood, hay and stubble" being burned. Look that up and read it in context. It is not about your personal salvation--it's about whether or not you are actually called to ministry, and are building upon the foundation of those who went before you. So, either temper your zeal with real humility, or pay the inevitable price. That's what I learned, for myself. I hope it helps. I'm imperfect, and if I ever found the "pefect ministry", I'd spoil it, because I am not perfect. Neither are you, so receive the exhortation, OK? The church has always been about as righteous, in itself, as the Israelites were in the wilderness--one of the reasons that God let that happen is so that Paul could write 1Cor 10 for our admonition--look it up! In other words, my biggest problem was me! Paul himself had a strong desire for his fellow Jews, that they might be saved, but God had called him as Apostle to the Gentiles. So, he had a strong burden he couldn't let go of. God sent him two prophets who told him not to go to Jerusalem. He went anyway, and nobody came to Christ those three years. Paul's fruitfulness only returned when he abandoned his "good idea" and actually followed God. So, like the weird guy in the early Mel Gibson movie said, "Wherever you go, there you are!". God bless you in His calling for you! 1. Worship--Ecc 12:13 2. Fellowship--Jas 1:18 3. Discipleship--Romans 8:9 4. Ministry--Eph 2:10 5. Evangelism--Matt 28:19-20, Eph 4 Keep in touch! In Him, (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, May 13, 2004, 12:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Oldtimer, enough is enough. Please stop posting here. You just cut and pasted 9 pages of your Bible classes and material you found on the Internet! It's a complete waste of bandwidth and server space and makes the threads unreadable. Apart from the fact that you keep preaching at us, it's very poor netiquette to post pages and pages of copied material. A link to the web page in question will suffice and anyone who is interested can go there to read it for themselves. There are so many other web sites for you to post your classes to people that will appreciate them. Please leave us alone here. (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 14:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules: So you're the webmaster, here? You behave like a petulant, self-righteous flamer, here (refernce is to POLITENESS; not latent or otherwise homosexuality! JOKE!). I just re-read your above article--the pages and pages of material you copied and pasted, and then gave a BIG BIBLE CLASS ON. Ohhh--so THAT'S where I got my pattern for posting stuff I thought was helpful and informative. On YOUR WEBPAGE. Interesting. So--YOU'RE the NAZI who says who can post what?! Hmmm. And I'm not worthy of your coolness, and must leave? So you think only SGA's have an axe to grind with the so-called Family? Listen, Buddy---I fought taking my own life over it for over 5 years---I've just grown up. When will you? Unless you're DEAD, aging is not an option if you WANT to stay in this world; conversely, ACTUALLY MATURING is a free will choice. Choose, and quit acting like a turd, JULES. Hmmm. "Bandwidth..server space...makes the threads unreadable...". You did what you just accused me of, but you did leave a handy URL a the end; how nice. MY GOD (I mean that literally), I HATE having to read the infantilized DRIVEL TM stil manages to PUKE OUT. I endure it, trying to understand how O might possibly gain an opportunity to say something that might actually help someone. You have shown how very CLEVER you are in correcting AN IDIOT! Ever tgink someone who thinks the message is more important than YOU, and your idea of whose slight attempt at communication is ACCEPTABLE? Good grief. "Leave US alone..."...Hmmm...what are you trying to do...START A CULT OR SOMETHING?! I do care about you, and I will keep praying for your stabilization in every way. I mean that. But you obviously need to GROW UP. Your hostility is NOT MY FAULT--I must remind you of someone you have not forgiven---ohhh, the angst! Ohhh, the pain! Big deal. Life's hard and unfair--get used to it, but try to be kind; OK? Even to a terrible, worthless FGA like me, hmmm? Take a look at the real world, "trou de cul". That's French--look it up. Does the term "cephalorectal fecal oculosis" mean anything to you at this time? I do believe it has afflicted you! ("Head-up-your-you-know-what-&-can't-see-for-you-know-what"). So, can YOU take a joke? Probably not. Get over yourself, Bub. I will probably make it a point to come back,at least to look in on your "maturity process". (reply to this comment)

From neez Thursday, May 13, 2004, 15:48 (Agree/Disagree?) lol.. your 56 & you've only "just grown up". Plz die. (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:01 (Agree/Disagree?) 52, dipshit. Hope you make it. (reply to this comment)

From neezy Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Well aren't we the refined one. Thats strange ur profile says 51. Granted I can't read.. but if you're going to lie about your age, wouldn't you traditionally make yourself younger? (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:43 (Agree/Disagree?) So sorry. It's a whole..hmm...7 months till I creak on in to 52. It wasn't a lie. I was counting in WHOLE YEARS. In the West, we start counting at birth, and by AGE ONE we have completed ONE YEAR, Brainiac. SO, the day after my 51st birthday begins...wait fot it...wait for it...YES!! My 52nd year. Were you able to grasp that concept, dearie? In the East, the count starts at conception. You're kind of petty; aren't ya? (reply to this comment)

From survivor Thursday, May 13, 2004, 15:20 (Agree/Disagree?) How do we vote this idiot out of here? The trailer park is too good for him. (reply to this comment)

From Elle Thursday, May 13, 2004, 15:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Now who on earth gave this guy three thumbs up?? (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Thursday, May 13, 2004, 14:53 (Agree/Disagree?) I know Jules is perfectly able to fight her own battles, but just in case she's busy at the moment I am going to reply to your obnoxious comment above: You certainly have some gall in suggesting that Jules should be more polite - the language and tone you use is completely uncalled for, considering that Jules' comment to you was very polite and not offensive in its langugae or tone. In case you didn't realise, Jules IS the webmaster in this part of the web, and if you don't like it you don't have to stick around. A lot of the people who post her have opposing views to Jules and she still allows them complete right to speak out, but if she does feel the need to step in and address certain issues we defer to her because THIS IS HER SITE!!! You really do not know what you are dealing with here. You were in TF for what, three years or something? That is nothing compared to growing up in there, enduring all manner of psychological, emotional, physical and in many cases sexual abuse, and subsequently having one's whole character shaped by it. There is no way you can begin to comprehend the issues that each of us has faced in leaving our old life and building a new one, so please spare us your preaching! - And if you still don't understand what we mean by that then you really need to go and take some kind of comprehension test. (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 15:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Vicky: Sorry--I was a real BUTT. I thought Jules was a guy--I feel like such a BULLY. No--I really am sorry. Jules: I really looked at your bio page and photos--you're a lovely, strong and obviously very intelligent person, and were just trying to protect the sensitive people on your webpage from me--I probably remind y'all (I'm in Houston, Texas, remember?) of YOUR PARENTS. Well, I am not them. I never caused any of the pain you're experiencing. Do not project that on me; that's ludicrously unfair. I am for you. I am against THE FREAKIN' FAMILY. I'm actually a pretty nice guy. I'm currently estranged from my adult children--maybe I thought I might find acceptance here. Maybe not. You guys actually vote people off the webpage? Does that make you feel better about your IMMATURITY? C'mon--LIGHTEN UP! OK, be as offensive as you like. By the way, I sent Jules an e-mail, and I really did apologize, for both taking unnecessary offense, and for being rude. I disagree with the "gall" accusation. And for assuming she was a guy. I tend to be rather confrontative with guys, and extremely polite to, and protective of, women. I grew up with three sisters; overseas, in Mexico, Colombia and Venezuela--always the odd one out. I have tried repeatedly to take my own life over the havoc having been in TF caused in my life. Seriously. Bloody wrists, comatose on medication; the whole schmere. Does that qualify me? Anybody feel sorry for me, yet? I don't know everybody's story, but I would NEVER trivialize anyone the way I felt trivialized. But you don't know my story; either. Each of us has pain that might not minimize the other's pain; at least, not at first. How about giving me a chance?! Let's just go on; OK? Isn't that something like the name of this site? And you are still going to have to define "preaching". Is that something resembling what your parents used to spew out while depersonalizing you and failing to really love you? That really does break my heart; I promise. But I didn't do it. Sorry, Joe H., I'm going to bring up The Simpsons again! Didn't Bart DEFINE old hippies, in part, as being insufferably SELF-RIGHTEOUS, in on episode? C'mon, aren't you the expert , or something? Well, my own supposedly protective self-righteousness is just about my biggest problem; I've found. How about you? Do you think you just might be; too? Just a little? Why don't we try some civility and common politeness? Sincerely. I'm not your problem, y'all. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, May 13, 2004, 20:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey, take your chauvinistic blather and shove it up your ass! We women here can give and take with the best of 'em. We don't need Uncle Oldtimer and his kid gloves! (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh for goodness sake! I just got home from work and saw this nonsense. Oldtimer, I was expecting a little more dignity from someone of your age. To be perfectly clear, this web site is not for FGAs. Please read the frequently asked questions for a better understanding of this site. http://www.movingon.org/faqs.asp It's very touching (in a get-out-of-my-room-Uncle-Jebadiah-and-stop-touching-me sort of way) that you say that you want to offer "hope, compassion and sympathy" to us, but trust me, it's better all round if you love us from afar. You not only remind us of our parents, but every Uncle who tormented (and molested) us, all the while foaming in their righteous indignation, for daring to call them on their lunacy. BTW, I think I can deal with a few "naughty" words. If I built my selfesteem from what people write about me I would have been done a long time ago. No offense, but I couldn't care less if you approve or not. What is actually insulting is that my gender even matters to you. I can take care of and "protect" myself just fine, thank you. I can be a "lady", if I want to, but I can also step up when I need to. I know you hate me, but I'm not even a Yankee. I am happy (now that summer is here) to be several degrees longditude above all that. All this to say, Oldtimer, you have not respected us or our space. Unfortunately for those who were having fun taking you down, I am going to have to block you from this web site. I wish you all the best and hope you have a wonderful life. (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Sunday, August 08, 2004, 12:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Just being a pedantic putz here, but surely you mean latitude (north and south) not longitude (East and West). :) I like the turn of phrase though, being the Canadian that I am. :D (reply to this comment)

From neez Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah it's just not the same hassling a feeble mind. :P (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 13:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules: I thank you for your instruction. I took a risk, was ignorant and untaught, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Up to now, I had nothing but praise for this webpage. Seriously; I'm sorry. I don't give Bible classes, I'm a nobody and I am afraid I'l never be cool (hence the name I chose). I am evidently a "them". You are obviously an "us". Sorry. An "us" is obviously "terminally hip", and I never will be. The "Bible classes" bit is quite humorous. Why don't you publish a good URL on "Netiquette". You're confusing me. Please define preaching. And consider that you may be projecting on me a bit! Does the "pages & pages" bit only apply to me? I've read practically the whole webpage, now, and it doesn't seem to. Double standard? FGA's not welcome? (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Thursday, May 13, 2004, 14:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Not when they come on here posting scriptures and bible classes many of us are not christians and don't care to hear the word of "GOD" and those who are christians already know the bible and don't need it posted. BTW it has nothing to do with you being a FGA Jules would have said the same thing if a SGA were posting all that stuff! There are christain websites you can go on if you feel like sharing testamonies and bible verses. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, May 13, 2004, 21:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Just to clarify, actually this was because he is an FGA. If SGAs wanted to preach, they would be welcome to (welcome to post that is, they would not be blocked, but I doubt if they would actually be welcomed by any of the participants). This web site is specifically for those born and/or raised in the Family. (See the new faqs for more info: http://www.movingon.org/faqs.asp ) This web site is NOT for everyone who was ever in the Family. It is for people who had no choice being in the group (those born and raised in). I am taking liberties here, but I am fairly confident in saying that absolutely no one here wants to hear some FGA "witness" to us. We have heard their "testimonies" ad nauseum. The FG ex-members have at least three web sites they can interact on, and the current member FGs have two interactive sites that they are welcomed on that I know of. There is no need for them to "minister" to us here. Itsxena2u said something about respecting the right of people to believe what they choose and I totally agree with that. I am an atheist myself, but I respect the right of those who hold to a religion to do so. I personally agree with Kant in his assessment of rights. We have the right to do as we please, so long as those what we please does not infringe on the rights of others. The notion of intense proselytization (aka missionary work, aka cramming your beliefs down the throats of the susceptible, aka blind zealotry) is what distinguishes people with faith from fanatics. If there is one thing we all (again taking liberties) know intimately and hate, it is fanaticism. No one will ever again tell us what we can and cannot think, and this to me, is what makes dialogue with other people from my background so interesting and stimulating. (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Friday, May 14, 2004, 01:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I see. Thanks. (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I get it, Sarafina. Wow, a real name; finally. I was merely trying to follow Jules' example of attempting to "come on here posting scriptures and bible classes"--see title of this section: Comment on: Web Rage: Maria's Frustration With Us and this Web Site Then, kindly read Jules VERY LONG posting. I rest my case. Are you into LOGIC, at all? It has EVERYTHING to do with my being a nasty old FGA--many of you have a tendency to PROJECT on people who, to YOU, resemble people who have hurt you. The obvious wise choice for you here is to recognize that, and stop trying to be OH SO COOL towards everyone but whatever is that youimagine me to be! Either that, or stay STUCK. It's YOUR CHOICE. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, May 13, 2004, 13:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah! Also, I'm really offended that he would use a Simpsons' reference. I'm going to have my buddy Matt Groening request a cease and desist order to stop him from watching the show! It's too cool for you, oldtimer! (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 13:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe H.: You're a very funny man. Did you ever consider that "oldtimer" may be a way of saying "probably wiser"? Maybe "probably WIDER"--I'm a FAT oldtimer, too! (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, May 13, 2004, 14:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes sir, Uncle Fartamore! Thank you so much for that correction! LHM for leaning to my own understanding and talking back! (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 14:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I thought you'd LEFT. Not the webpage, the FREAKIN' FAMILY!!! I left in '74, DUMBASS. I've been in the real world for 30 YEARS, NOW. Drop the projection B.S.; OK? It reeks of self-pity; methinks! I think that someone, OF YOUR VERY OWN AGE (chronological, at least, ya big baby!) posted something recently about ad hominem attacks being the resort of the weak-minded. Do oyu have anything to say that is adult, and non-scatalogical, or are you content with drivel? Is that what this webpage is for--acting a fool? Rave on, puppy! (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, May 13, 2004, 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Many of us were born after '74, and I think it's fair to say that the bulk of widespread abuse happened in the 80's. Consequently the fact that you left in '74 makes you less relevant to us not more. You probably didn't perpetrate any abuse, but you didn't experience any either, and this relegates you to the status of someone who made a dumb decision in the early 70's but doesn't really have anything interesting to say. If you are trying to express an FGA's perspective in some weird way it just doesn't wash. All of us SGAs spent many more years in that cult and saw much more shit than you did, so in that respect we are the old timers. You are just an opportunist who thought he could get some attention from the younger generation as the result of some misguided spiritual segue he took in his hippy youth. Go back to the obscurity from whence you came! (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi, "Exister". My, what a melodramatic name. You said I "probably" didn't perpetrate any abuse, and that I categorically didn't experience any; either. Interesting; the certainty of your point of view. You have no knowledge of how or why I made my decision. I did write part of it down, ostensibly for mature adult contemplation (not the porno type). You're doing the "relegating", ya li'l PISS-ANT. You have no real idea WHAT I've lived through. I wrote down part of my history in an attempt to reach out and maybe try to help someone. Maybe someone like me. Maybe someone like you. "Interesting"? You just "relegated" me again; to the bottom of your insignificant "coolness"' pile, I guess. Good for you. So, let's see--you "spent more years in the cult"...you saw much more shit than I did"...I'm "an opportunist" who thought some sort of ridiculous B.S. you decided you have learned to oh, so valiantly project on me. And what is the DEAL with the King-Jamish "WHENCE"? Wow. I am so greatly impressed by the Elizabethan AMONGST us. You are very, very cool; aren't you? You also sound very, very pseudo-intellectual. I bow to you; really I do. You're quite the self-righteous, angry little PUTZ; aren't you? Please pardon me, oh giver of great light on the human condition. Grow up, oh giver of excruciating BOREDOM. Exister. Hmmmph. (reply to this comment)

From Old Fart Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Old timer I think you just need to shut up! (reply to this comment)

From oldtimer Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi, "Exister". My, what a melodramatic name. You said I "probably" didn't perpetrate any abuse, and that I categorically didn't experience any; either. Interesting; the certainty of your point of view. You have no knowledge of how or why I made my decision. I did write part of it down, ostensibly for mature adult contemplation (not the porno type). You're doing the "relegating", ya li'l PISS-ANT. You have no real idea WHAT I've lived through. I wrote down part of my history in an attempt to reach out and maybe try to help someone. Maybe someone like me. Maybe someone like you. "Interesting"? You just "relegated" me again; to the bottom of your insignificant "coolness"' pile, I guess. Good for you. So, let's see--you "spent more years in the cult"...you saw much more shit than I did"...I'm "an opportunist" who thought some sort of ridiculous B.S. you decided you have learned to oh, so valiantly project on me. And what is the DEAL with the King-Jamish "WHENCE"? Wow. I am so greatly impressed by the Elizabethan AMONGST us. You are very, very cool; aren't you? You also sound very, very pseudo-intellectual. I bow to you; really I do. You're quite the self-righteous, angry little PUTZ; aren't you? Please pardon me, oh giver of great light on the human condition. Grow up, oh giver of excruciating BOREDOM. Exister. Hmmmph. (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, May 13, 2004, 16:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Can you all see it? The veins are bulging on his red, balding head as he sputters and spits while typing with his two index fingers. His blood pressure shoots through the roof as he tries to think of just the right combination of capitalization and misguided punctuation to get his point across. Ease up. Don't have a coronary there big fella. (reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, May 14, 2004, 05:01 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL - oh yes, I completely got this image as well!! Nicely put!! (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, May 13, 2004, 21:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Damn you and your literary skill. Was disassociating nicely from his rabid denouncement of us "kids" and the ironic demand for us to “mature”. So did not need the mental image you so kindly and vividly supplied. Bills for further therapy will be sent c/o Exister. (reply to this comment)

From oddman Sunday, January 23, 2005, 00:56 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL, I see this is an old old thread here, but was very very funny.. Thought I'd leave a comment, so people can find it from the "New content". Jules, the original article was very well written, as most of your articles are. You deserve a column in the Times. :D (reply to this comment)

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