Getting Through : In Remembrance
More Internal Documents From The Family Regarding Ricky Rodriguez
from Blondie_B78 - Thursday, February 10, 2005
accessed 9473 times
The old thread was getting a bit long so have pasted this here. Many thanks to whoever posted this.
(MO site announcement #8)
God bless you all. Mama and I love you and are praying for you. We have been especially keeping those of you in the U.S. in our prayers, as that’s where most of the media focus has been up until now.
Since my last update, a major show aired in the U.S. Following is a report about the show:
"ABC’s Primetime had a segment on the Family which focused on Ricky’s murder/suicide. The show consisted of three segments, and the segment about the Family was in the middle. The segment was 16 minutes long. The first eight minutes focused on Ricky, showing a number of clips from the video he made. The next eight minutes had clips of interviews of SGA former members who spoke about abuse. This segment also included a couple short clips of the old dance videos, which were stolen from the Family about 15 years ago. Some of the picture pages from the Davidito Book were also shown. Throughout this segment Claire, the North American Family spokesperson, answered questions and made some statements. Three SGA Family members were interviewed for the show and a powerful statement by one of them was aired."
As expected, the show was negative, but at least, as the Lord said in prophecy, "Little bits of truth and light got out, and that’s important. Through those little glimmers of light, the sheep will hear My voice, and they will be interested in you and in the truth I have given you."
The day after the show the Family web site received several confirmations of this through some emails which read:
I saw the story on TV last night about the suicidal member and thought how sad. In no way did I feel like it was the Ministries fault or anyone else’s. When we do not walk with Christ it is easy for Satan to seep in and distort things. But this is how I heard about The Family and now I am interested in learning more about your Ministry.
Just watched the Ricky spot on ABC. Believed him after watching the sound bites. But after watching the whole episode, something struck me as strange. Can't put my finger on it...something just wasn't right with that kid. More than met the eye. I work in a rescue mission. My life was saved by Jesus Christ through a rescue mission ministry similar to the one where I now work. I long only to serve God by reaching those who are at the very end of the line. I know what it feels like to be at the very edge of the abyss, then have God pull me out. Somehow I feel that I can make a difference, despite what I think of myself. He is so wonderful. Just wanted to share what my heart feels about Him and to say that I don't believe the lies.
I am sorry for your loss. I heard you through the news. I don't believe some of the things that the news said about your group. I just hope that this bit of bad P.R. does not hurt the good things that you all do around the world. I will hope to hear a reply from your group, because I would like to know more about your group. (End of emails.)
There hasn’t been anything in the U.S. print media lately. A few stories seem to be in the works, as some journalists are contacting Family members for interviews, and a British journalist will be coming out with a story shortly.
Mama has been working on another GN on this topic which you should have access to by now (see the MO site for GN 1121, "Advancing Anyway!"). We pray that it will be a help and strength to you. You should have also received the notice about changing the date of the Feast in order to allow you more time to study the GNs, the Board criteria, and Home review questionnaires. Also coming shortly is a GN about the recent tsunami full of informative and faith-building prophecies about that catastrophic event.
Mama and I want to again comment on the myconclusion.com site which you young people have launched. Your postings have been a wonderful testimony of your lives, your dedication, and how you feel about your faith and your Family. Making your voice heard in such a resounding way is powerful. Of course, a few of the detractors are trying to pick it apart, just like they pick everything else apart—saying that you were told what to write, and that you are brainwashed. Don’t worry about the vocal few.—I believe there are those within the detractor camp who are beginning to realize that you young people are in the Family because you have chosen to be, because you love the Family, because you know it’s a great place to serve the Lord, to raise your children, and to work towards making the world a better place. I think there are some who are beginning to realize that in attacking the Family, they are attacking all Family members, including you, our second generation members—they are attacking your families and your children. Hearing from you has hopefully helped them to see that you are not about to take that lying down, that you will fight back, that you are part of the Family they are fighting.
You have made it very clear through your testimonials that the Family isn’t what the detractors who are currently fighting the Family have tried to say it is. You have painted a very different picture of life in the Family than the distorted picture they have presented to the media, and which they try to paint on their various web sites. You have made a difference. You are standing up for your freedom of choice, your freedom of religion, your freedom to live your life in the manner you wish. Mama and I are proud of you for it. Your voice is powerful!
Since one of the main stated goals of these detractors has been to pull current member young people out of the Family, it would seem they have come to the conclusion after reading your posts that their tactics are doing just the opposite. As such, over the past few days they have taken another approach. They’ve begun holding out "olive branches," claiming that their intention was never to destroy the Family, that all they really want is to talk and discuss the issues, to come to terms of reconciliation.
As far as we are concerned, we’re very much in favor of reconciling, of finding ways to heal both real and perceived hurts that may exist. We made this a major push in years past, encouraging Family members to reconcile with relatives and former members, and many have done so. Our sincere wish for those who were once a part of the Family is that they will be successful and happy, and lead constructive, fulfilling lives. But you see, reconciliation is a two way street; both sides must want it and must make the effort to bring it about. Up until this point, however, the "reconciliation" our most hostile detractors have been talking about is that Mama and I resign from the leadership of the Family, at best, or are thrown in jail, at worst. They are trying to get us to agree with their point of view that our lifestyle is abusive, and that children born in the Family are victims of abuse. They talk of disbanding the Family. Obviously, that isn’t a viable starting place for dialog, much less reconciliation.
Some of the people who are now publicly stating that they are not out to bring down the Family, have stated or inferred quite the opposite in previous posts on their web sites. One of their spokespeople who now is publicly stating that they want to dialog said just three weeks ago, "I need to send a message to Zerby: ‘This generation of children is going to destroy you. God forbid anybody else die. But barring that, we are going to destroy your organization. We’re going to destroy your group. We’re going to destroy your lives’…." He also stated, "I'm going to come back and personally destroy the Family if I have to use my teeth." Two years ago I sent a message via an intermediary to this person regarding the possibility of meeting to discuss their issues and the answer I received back was a no. This would seem to suggest that these current overtures of discussion and reconciliation may just be rhetoric with a hidden agenda.
These folks feel very free to quote out of context anything written by the Family; they feel free to twist and distort it, to interpret it to fit their spin. Meanwhile, they have been making many statements on the web for the past four years, the vast majority of which have been disparaging. Their profanity, bitterness, and calls for vengeance have fanned the flames of intolerance and led to many moderate former members reinterpreting their entire time in the Family from a negative perspective. Our detractors have attacked our belief system. They have made it clear that their goal is to bring down the Family and see it dismantled. They post our GNs, and proceed to mock, criticize and condemn them, which in essence means they are mocking our faith and our Family way of life. There have been attempts at various sorts of blackmail, though not posted openly on their sites. Dialog cannot thrive in such an environment.
I understand that their web sites are an open forum for anyone to post on and as such every word doesn’t necessarily reflect the thoughts or feelings of the administrators of those sites. However, some of their web site board members themselves have posted writings that promote destroying the Family. To the site administrators credit, when some earlier violent postings were pointed out to them they removed them. However as of February 5th the postings quoted below, which incite violence and hatred, are on their site for all to read.
"I don't feel sorry for her [Angela], in fact, I would have loved to watch or even help. … So while you stand around hoping for peaceful resolution, I have no problems solving THIS type of issue with violence, SHE DESERVED DEATH, and he deserved to administer it in whatever fashion he chose or was capable of… he died a hero, a warrior, and I wish I could be that strong, or even take a few more, you know.....leave the game with a higher score."
"The only thing that separates me from the action that Ricky took is that I would only kill one of them if I figured I could get away with it."
"Sue [Angela] got what she had coming… I'm glad he stabbed her instead of just letting her off with one to the head."
"If he had to go, he might as well have taken one of the f**kers with him; it's almost too bad he only got one."
While I realize that such disturbing postings do not reflect the viewpoints of most of those who post on this site, nevertheless I consider it very irresponsible for the site administrators to allow this sort of violent rhetoric to remain on their site. For these reasons I find it hard to believe they are sincere in what they say about reconciliation.
Another reason we question their sincerity is that they continue to state that the leadership of the Family never apologized for or repudiated the actions of the past that led to some minors being exposed to sexually inappropriate behavior and have never accepted any responsibility for what occurred in the past. This is totally untrue.
We have republished the apologies made over the past ten years in one of our recent notices to make those easily available to all, both current and former Family members. [See: new.familymembers.com/pubs/pub.note.8] We also presented our acknowledgement of responsibility in our letter to the judge in Britain in September 1995 during a custody case. We stated, "…we accept that as the author of ideas upon which some members acted to the harm of minors in The Family, he [Father David] must bear responsibility for that harm. Maria, and all of us in World Services Leadership, also feel the burden of responsibility... We acknowledge that it was wrong to proclaim a teaching of sexual liberty (i.e., in 1976 and 1978) without establishing clear rules to ensure that sexual contact did not take place between adults and children."
After reading my letter to him in response to his concerns on these issues, and after reading "An Answer to Him that Asketh" (see GN 653), the high court judge wrote in his judgment:
"I could not have asked for more… I am impressed, very impressed, by the fact that The Family have openly revealed this to all the membership without any attempt to obfuscate my findings. In ‘An Answer to Him that Asketh Us! - the Whys and Wherefores behind WS's letter to the Judge’ Maria writes to the disciples and friends. ‘If we had known then what we know now, we would not have published this material.’ She makes fulsome apology… I believe that The Family has removed all ambiguity in this matter. I believe that the problems which have attracted the concern of the world outside the group have been addressed".
Our letter to the judge, the GN "An Answer to Him that Asketh Us," and other apologies have been in the public record for almost ten years. The judge accepted this. Our detractors have the judge’s ruling yet they still insist we haven’t apologized or addressed these issues.
I’m sharing these things with you so that if you have been exposed to some of these open letters from our detractors that are now being disseminated, you can understand why at this point it’s difficult to determine whether the stated motives of those seeking dialog, and in some cases, reconciliation, are sincere. Mama and I are not against communication, we’re not against making attempts at reconciliation. Our prayer is that good relations will be strengthened between former and current members, as well as reconciliation and mutual respect for the path that each one has chosen of their own free will. In order for this to happen, though, we need to know that there is sincere effort on the part of those writing these letters to respect our beliefs and choices, rather than it being just a tactical move to fulfill their previously stated goal of dismantling the Family. I hope these overtures are indeed sincere, but because of the above reasons, it is unclear at this time.
Any efforts at reconciliation would need to be based on mutual respect. There would need to be a sincere effort put forth on their part to respect our religious beliefs and lifestyle as well as the right of Family parents to raise their children according to their beliefs. Family members have been encouraged to respect the rights of former members to live the lifestyle of their choosing; the same respect must be accorded to Family members. The former members involved would need to recognize that their public campaigns against the Family demonize and stigmatize our children and could even place them at risk.
Even if Mama and I were convinced that they truly wanted to make some attempt at reconciliation, it would not be possible at this time, considering the volatile environment that was created by Ricky’s actions. Just the other day death threats were sent to thefamily.org site and the myconclusion.com site. It’s a highly charged time and things need to calm down. I think it would be wise for everyone to step back and take a deep breath—many of them, in fact. While we are open to the possibility of dialog, it seems that before any productive discussion could be considered there needs to be a few months of cooling off.
To this end, I’m suggesting to all of you, dear Family, to please avoid going to the former member web sites. First off, as we’ve said many times before, they aren’t a spiritually healthy place to go. Secondly, and this is very important at this time, please do not post there . When you do, it’s pretty obvious from the reactions to your posts that you cause people to get angry, which is something we want to avoid. I understand that you have very legitimate reasons for being angry as our beliefs are being dragged through the dirt on their site, and are angry because they are seeking to destroy the Family. But now isn’t the time for anger, it’s a time for cooling off and healing, and forgiving. If you want to post your thoughts, you are welcome to do so on myconclusion.com, but please avoid doing so on the former member sites. Now is a time to pray for all those, both in our former member community and in the Family, who have been deeply disturbed or saddened by Ricky’s actions.
Over the next few months Mama and I will be praying and counseling with other leadership, both FGA and SGA, in regards to steps that could be taken towards reconciliation. This will allow us all time for closure regarding the deaths of Ricky and Angela. It will also allow us time to pray and hear from the Lord in regards to reconciliation. As some time passes, it will become clearer if the calls for dialog and/or reconciliation are in fact sincere and a viable option. If dialog were to become a real possibility, it wouldn’t be carried out over the web, but rather in a private forum, and would be conducted by agreed-upon attendees as well as agreed upon rules that would not allow for caustic rhetoric or unreasonable demands.
Some of our detractors are attempting to open dialog with SGA Family members. They do this mostly by contacting individuals via email. Mama and I don’t recommend that you enter into such personal dialogue with these detractors. The reasons for this is that in the past they have posted on their site that they feel it’s very effective to "witness" to SGAs, to talk in a reasonable manner, to show themselves friendly so that they can convince members to leave the Family. This brings into question their motives for wanting to dialog with you. My suggestion is that you wait for future official dialog rather than attempting it on your own.
During this time while we hope that things will calm down, please pray that everyone can find healing and closure from all that this tragic incident has evoked. Pray that the anger will subside. Pray for a spirit of forgiveness. I know some of you in the Family are also angry, and understandably so, but you must get past that anger with the Lord’s help, and forgive; that’s the only way you can heal.
Thank you, dear Family, for your prayers. Mama and I love you dearly and are praying for your outreach, your witnessing, your Word time, prayer time, and for the upcoming changes within your Homes during this year of strengthening. Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:57).
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|from Peter on Mermorial Site for Ricky by TF|
Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 14:09
Notice from Peter -- March 9, 2005
(MO site announcement #10)
God bless you. Mama and I love you, and our prayers are with you as you get ready for when your Home holds its Feast days, as you prepare for the workshops, as you choose individuals to lead those workshops, as you read the board’s criteria, as you hold your meetings and as you move your Home forward.
After the Feast you will be electing your Home shepherds, your Steering Council, and your Criteria monitors. There’s a lot going on, and this is a very important time for your Home and for the Family at large. So let’s all pray for one another, shall we? During this month and next please pray not just for your Home, but for those Homes around you, in your region, and throughout the whole world. Thanks so much! —And remember, when you study the criteria, don’t be discouraged if you feel your Home isn’t hitting the mark. It’s going to take time to reach the goal, this is just the start, so target the areas you’re weak in and grow in them, that’s the plan.
I want to share some news with you about a new web site we are putting up. A few weeks after Ricky and Angela’s deaths, the WS web team put up the Angela-Smith.org web site as a memorial to Angela. There are many beautiful remembrances of Angela on this site. On the myconclusion.com site as well many of you spoke of Angela’s love, her joyfulness, her sacrificial service and the dedicated life she lived, all of which have been a testimony to the wonderful person she was and the sacrificial life she led.
At the time of putting up Angela’s site we considered the possibility of putting up a similar web site for Ricky. When praying about it the Lord told us that it wasn’t the right time to do so. At the time there was a lot of media activity and putting up a site could have easily been misinterpreted as a media stunt, or a tactical move. We also wondered if it was appropriate for us to host such a site, considering the circumstances of his and Angela’s deaths. Besides this, there was a lot of anger, grief and animosity in the air at the time. So we held off on putting up such a site.
A few weeks ago we prayed about it again and the Lord showed us we should prepare the site, but still hold off on putting it up. We began work on the site, we searched through the pictures in our files, and different people who lived in our Home over the years, or who lived with Ricky, wrote short remembrances of him.
Now the Lord has told us that we should go ahead and put up the site. He said it was important that you, our Family, as well as non-Family members who view the site, realize that though Mama and I abhor what Ricky did to Angela, he was our son and we still love him as such. We also want you to understand that when we say that we have forgiven Ricky for his action, that we mean it.—Those aren’t just empty words. We can’t take away from the facts of what happened, we can’t erase them, but we can forgive.
Many of you may be angry at what Ricky did and the results his actions brought, but the way to overcome that anger, the way to heal, is to forgive. We are putting this site up in the hopes that it will help bring forgiveness and healing. The site address is: http://www.RickyRodriguez.com
As you will see, the theme of the site is the memories of the young man we knew as Pete (before he left the Family and became Ricky). We want to share glimpses of the life he led through the photos and comments from those of both the first and second generations who lived with him over the years. We have chosen to limit the memories on this site to Family members who knew Pete, who lived with him and shared his life before he left the Family.
We have also included a section about suicide in the hopes of comforting anyone who may visit this site who has had a loved one commit suicide. Most people, Christian and non-Christian, believe that anyone who commits suicide is eternally damned. Such a belief brings continual grief to friends and relatives. We pray that the section on suicide will help to alleviate the grief of some.
Our prayer is that this site will be a blessing to any who view it, and also a witness of Heaven and both the Lord’s and our forgiveness. It will hopefully give a picture of the life Pete led before he chose a different path for his life.
I want to mention that our launching memorial sites for Angela and Ricky doesn't mean that they mean more to us, or the Family at large, than the other precious Family members and loved ones who have gone on to their heavenly reward. While we would love to be able to create a web site for each Family member who passes into Heaven, it's not something we can realistically do. In Ricky’s and Angela’s case, though, we felt it was important to do so because of the very public nature of their deaths, which the Lord confirmed.
On the Members Only web site, there is a "Graduates" photo gallery with beautiful photos of Family members who have passed on over the years. Some of them have memorials as well, which you can read if you click on the link in the photo's caption. Please feel free to contribute your memories or eulogies for our Family loved ones who are working with us now on the other side.
Mama and I love you dearly. We’re proud of you for how you give your lives daily to serve our precious Husband, to fight the good fight, to win the lost, to minister to the needy. You are a Family to be proud of.
(reply to this comment)
Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 08:02
I just read your above republished correspondence to the Family. I have never addressed you or Maria directly before, but I felt compelled to here after having read what you wrote.
I consider myself one of the more vocal posters on movingon.org. I am also a lawyer. I am aware of and supportive of many of the efforts of former children of the Family, my peers, many of them my friends, as well. I think I better represent the majority of former children of the Family and posters on movingon.org in respect to education level, articulation, social and professional status and even sentiment than do the authors of the few quotes of violence you chose to publish. I am not purporting to speak for the hundreds of posters on movingon.org, much less the thousands of former children of the Family. I am only trying to convey that the quotes of violence you published in your above referenced correspondence to the Family do not properly represent the sentiments of the majority of posters on movingon.org, nor do they represent the sentiments of many of my peers who are speaking out right now to the media and involved with other efforts.
Now while I have a tendency to second guess and be suspicious of why you chose to quote such extreme positions in your correspondence to the Family in an effort to incite fear, while you are receiving honest and legitimate correspondence from the larger more moderate group of my peers which included a sincere request for dialogue and a statement of assurance that we do not support violence of any type, I do not know, but I will put that aside in an effort to better convey the one point of this response. That is that those closely involved with ongoing efforts to bring to light the painful experiences of our childhoods in the Family are not disaffected, social misfits who hunger for violence, plot crimes and are incapable of coherent dialogue. In fact, it is just the opposite. Those spending their time and resources in efforts that you have seen in the media and to come are articulate, thoughtful, educated, intelligent, successful, gentle people who only advocate justice in the civilized legal sense. I know of no one, either among movingon.org's administrators, my peers or friends, who isn't incredibly capable and well-spoken and who absolutely rejects violence.
A better understanding of whom you are addressing may facilitate in a more successful dialogue. It certainly does not help your position to attempt to categorize or label us. We see right through it, and it further alienates those who would actually be interested in a dialogue.
What you should understand and convey to the Family is that the vast majority of us still have ties with the Family. We have siblings and parents still left. We care about those siblings. Some even care about those parents. We would have no harm come to our siblings. That is why Ricky stated that he could find no one to participate in his plans. You should try to understand that. It does no good to fear monger.
Yes, many of us are scarred. Some of us are very, very scarred. There are some whose views I do not share. I try very hard, however, not to judge them. My thoughts and opinions have changed over the couple years I have posted on movingon.org. Unlike you purport, I have actually mellowed in my views on the Family since finding the website. The tragedy that occurred with Ricky has helped me to even further define my understanding of justice in response to what happened to us growing up, and it does not include physical harm to anyone.
I suspect that many who feel the need to post angry comments are doing so as an outlet for their frustrations with the lack of resolution to what happened to them and others growing up. Answering those comments with denial and labeling does nothing to allay that anger or resolve that frustration. Rather, it only incites it further.
What you do not understand is that it is not the comments from my peers which anger me and encourage me to come forward and speak out. It is the statements, actions and denials by the Family. Claire Borowik's blatant lies have done more to encourage me to support the legitimate, nonviolent efforts of my peers to expose our upbringing in the Family than probably any other thing of which I can think right now.
In conclusion, the bottom line of what I am trying to write is that inane comments on myconclusion.com by children we all know have no knowledge of the subject at hand due to their age or by adults who are clearly choosing their words to avoid admitting what we all know happened to us growing up, denials by Family spokespersons, GNs which defame us and call us lying demons from the sewers, press releases naming and defaming our peers, stereotyping us, inciting fear among our siblings and generally continuing with the same line we have heard for most of our lives, will do nothing to stop the efforts of those speaking out. Rather, it only fuels them. If you are really concerned with remaining a viable religious organization that is not reviled by the public at large, then I encourage you to rethink your tactics and accept and reach out to the large group of moderate former children of the Family who are speaking out. You would do more for yourselves, than all the denials and victim-blaming has ever done.
(reply to this comment)
Monday, February 14, 2005 - 19:24
...Oh dear...I face the Family in Court in two weeks. Studied like crazy to get to this stage. Lord Justice Wards comments on Davidito are ringing in my ears, as are his writings on the Family and deceipt.
You won't change Peter and Karen Zerby. Even my own family, who are FAMILY, were willing to let me die rather than renounce their faith or consider options of mercy, truth and responsibility.
Someone warned me that fighting the Family would be infuriating and so it has been. I have just had to say to myself, everything is predictable and not take it personally. The Family is a system. Without too much intelligence the next six months of their operation, mailings, methods etc are easilly forcast. 'Because they have no change they fear not God'.
Just talk money with leadership. The masses are just confused 'emotional messes'. Stick with the leadership. They covert money. They love money. If they can give 10,000 to George Melton they can give 10,000 to everyone.
Leadership enjoy battling with you..it's an adrenelin rush for them. Don't play into their hands by responding or commenting on their Lunacy (Lord Justice Ward documented that one well). The hit dog howls. Hit them where they hate the most..money. Personally in my mind I am considering that the Family sued Community Services, Australia, or whoever for 10,000,000 or whatever because their children were taken for a week. Mine have been forcefully taken from me and kept from me for almost two years now (passive violence). 52 times 10,000,000 would be a fair result by Family standards of persecution. Who is persecuting who? Passive violence is apart of their doctrine. Leave it alone...it won't change.
They are right in asking you not to talk about doctrine. That is something reserved for me in my court case because my children live with their current doctrines. I live with nightmares worrying about their precious souls becoming violent, like some of you and most in the family.
Talk about ownership. Talk about the money the Family are making from the life savings of your parents and your entitlement to a percentage of that money.
Remember their words are as smoothe as honey but in their hearts they want war. Don't give them their war. Bring them down to earth by making them 'forsake all' to give to you and others. It's a win win situation. Their own doctrines can be enforced upon them. They get to forsake all, at last, and you get your money back. Happy??
(reply to this comment)
|from To King Peter|
Monday, February 14, 2005 - 17:54
Ok, so maybe you still won't listen, but there's a chance you can read.
You go on and on with your version that you need your followers to believe or they will stop supporting and following you. Somebody said you have some brain cells left, so see if you can understand this.
Unconscionable things were done to some of us and now that we are whistleblowers (yes, the real world does not condemn whistleblowers and there are even certain laws to protect them against retaliation in some cases, because the corrupt have never appreciated "vocal" critics), you yell "religious persecution." Don't you realize that implies that the abuse we are recounting and criticizing is your religion?
Many of us are still suffering from what you did to us. The question is, who should shoulder the cost? Nobody whose opinion I care about would be outraged at shifting some of that cost from the shoulders of the survivors of that child abuse to the abusers.
Apparently at the time the abusers to do it badly enough that they were willing to run afoul of "man's laws." They chose to run that risk. Now you seem to have a problem seeing your actions measured against society's yardstick. You were happy to get your jollies then, but now you want no part in dealing with the consequences.
I don't feel sorry for you.
(reply to this comment)
|from Saturday Night Live vs. MyConclusion.com|
Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 16:46
Out of the Mouths of Babes....
Namely, the Babe Tina Fey:
"Macaulay Culkin will be testifying that Michael Jackson never molested him. And I will be testifying in favor of Robert Blake because he never murdered me. Not once!"
(reply to this comment)
Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 15:01
A relationship between a parent and child is not a "two way street" or "give and take." Parents have to UNCINDITIONALY be there for their kids and love them and see them through thick and thin, hard times or not. Not send them on thier way with "best wishes" and "good luck out there in the big bad system." If parents only did their job as long as their kids "agreed" with them, there would be no families. You just don't sacrifice your family for "the Work." Your kids are your work and if you don't think so you shouldn't of had them.
It sounds to me like Peter is using this opportunity to even more isolate the people still in TF. "watch out now cause they are physically dangerous." I think he knows parents are starting to wonder if they are in fact doing the right thing and he needs to minimize contact. Where are Peter's kids, are they still in Tf? it would be interesting to see what they have to say.
(reply to this comment)
|from Sifuni Mungu|
Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 14:14
Peter, you should be careful not to encourage people who heard about The Family from recent news coverage by quoting statements that they are "now...interested in learning more about your Ministry."
Religiously-oriented pedophiles have had slim pickings in the Catholic Church in recent years--or in any of the Christian churches and faith-based service organizations that obey local laws by reporting sexual abuse allegations to the appropriate authorities for investigation.
Despite The Family's stated policies, your ministry still offers great recruitment incentives for pedophiles who feel a religious calling. News coverage made it pretty clear that Family leadership never referred allegations against current members in good standing to law enforcement or child welfare authorities. Too bad you can't see what that simple fact means to a sexual predator. If you could, you might understand the type of internal reforms that constitute a good faith move toward reconciliation with your second generation.
But that type of reform COULD put your queen's royal neck in a noose, eh? Not all the children and adolescents Momma Maria used to service Berg's sexual appetite are dead or insane. Wonder when another one of those skeletons will rise from the dust and scream in agony over growing up in Momma's little shop of horrors?
(reply to this comment)
Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 11:37
"While I realize that such disturbing postings do not reflect the viewpoints of most of those who post on this site, nevertheless I consider it very irresponsible for the site administrators to allow this sort of violent rhetoric to remain on their site. For these reasons I find it hard to believe they are sincere in what they say about reconciliation."
People who post on this site were raised with violent rhetoric and hate speech, Peter. Check out Berg on God as divine rapist, or Berg on the fate of IRFers, or Berg on the damned, anti-christ Jews, or Berg exorcizing the demons from his granddaughter Merry. I consider it EXTREMELY irresponsible to have raised children with this sort of rhetoric, but unlike you, I'm not hypocritical and sanctimoneous about them using the rhetoric of their childhood.
"Another reason we question their sincerity is that they continue to state that the leadership of the Family never apologized for or repudiated the actions of the past that led to some minors being exposed to sexually inappropriate behavior and have never accepted any responsibility for what occurred in the past. This is totally untrue."
You & Karen Zerby may have apologized, but as your friend Jim Chancellor pointed out in a Tuscon-area television interview immediately following the murder/suicide, "Sometimes an apology isn't enough." Do you suppose the Jews who survived the holocaust would have been satisfied with passive statements like "Mistakes were made?" from the Nazis who imprisoned and tortured them?
Being the good disciple that you are of the anti-semite David Berg, I don't imagine you have much understanding of the precedents set by Jewish holocaust survivors with regard to how people go about reconciling crimes against humanity. Let me give you a hint: Some people DO end up in prison as a consequence of their crimes.
Has it crossed your mind that prosecution for the crimes you and Karen Zerby committed in the name of your pedophilic prophet is what really makes you doubtful about the possibility of reconciliation?
Can you get beyond your egocentric megolomania long enough to imagine The Family going on without you? There is a HUGE difference between bringing criminal leadership to justice and destroying The Family. I know it's a stretch for you to get this, but The Family International WILL go on without you and your criminally insane wife.
The SGs you REALLY need to worry about reconciling with are the ones who are still in the organization. Better watch your back, because there are some hungry young lions on the inside who'd jump at an opportunity to toss you and Mama overboard to the law enforcement sharks. Peter Amsterdam and Maria David are The Family's biggest liabilities as far as its future as a Christian missionary organization is concerned, and there are SG Family members who are dedicated to making the reforms necessary to bring TF in line with its publically stated mission.
Better hope there's a safe haven somewhere when you & your queen are decrepit, drooling, incontinent farts like David Berg in his final years, because your victims will never forget and never rest until The Family's criminal leadership is brought to justice.
(reply to this comment)
Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 08:33
Oh poor little you! lets throw a pity party shall we? lets all get together and weep and feel sorry for you! stop trying to act like the sacrificial lamb to the slaughter! I mean really! we are not psychos here or sociopaths, we are normal human beings who are trying to make it in the real world and have children ourselves! many of us are Christians and there are many others that are trying to make some sense of their lives, and now especially with Ricky's tragic death. I don't believe Angela deserved to die but at the same time, you reap what you sow. It's not uncommon for an abused child to want to kill their abuser. Ricky wanted dignity and to take control over his destiny, but he could not live with his haunting memories which TF inflicted on that poor man. If he had murdered her but not killed himself, I am sure he would have gotten a minimal prison sentence because of the level or provocation that he was subjected to for years! The abuse is not just just sexual, it was psychological (telling us "you are no good you can never make it in the world"), physical (harsh discipline and too many spankings, victor camps, too much housework, babysitting,),mental (no reading newspapers, magazines,not being able to make own decisions, no EDUCATION)Medical (not enough healthcare available, especially dental care, discouraging medical treatment, not allowed to use contraception) Emotional (spliting up families, encouraging parents to screw around, "Jesus" babies, women not knowing who the father is, having to "provision" for food and the humiliating acts of busking, selling tapes or whatever garbage you produce when we should be in school, never being bought new clothes or shoes, shoes were only bought when the soles were completely worn out, never having a vacation or holiday) Spiritual (twisting the scriptures to own advantage, giving a false image of who God is, controlling every move people make) Intellectual (not giving people any freedom whatsoever to make their own mistakes and live their own lives, study and explore the world for themselves, using FOG to stop people from self discovery FOG stands for Fear, Obligation and Guilt used to control people and enforce emotional blackmail). Even controlling how people wear their hair, shave, etc. I am studying these damaging effects in College and TF's abuse extends a lot further than just sexual abuse, and I bet my bottom dollar that the above is still going on today (even though they claim sexual abuse has stopped). TF's abuse violates every basic human right to decide for themselves. For the record, most of us have NOTHING against the people stuck in TF, on the contrary, we want to help them be free and take control over their own lives. However, we have a BIG problem with YOU Kelly and Zerby! you need to stop what you are doing and repent and let those poor people go and be free to pursue their own lives.
(reply to this comment)
Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 07:07
"As the Lord said in prophecy, "Little bits of truth and light got out, and that’s important."Says the queen .
Well she sure got that right.
More truth is coming out and more will come again ,until it becomes unbearable for her and her disciples.
I agree ,its important that more and more thruth comes out rather than the lies of Berg ,Mummy Maria and Petey Shadow.
Let's see what God has in mind this time ....
(reply to this comment)
Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 21:01
Peter, it's good to know that you are keeping an eye on this and other ex-TF web sites. I'll have to remember that when I post here. I've learned a great deal about what the Bible really teaches, Peter, since I left TF. It has been truly inspiring and has shown me who Jesus REALLY is. I'm more assured of His love and mercy now than I could ever have imagined. It's really ashame what Berg taught regarding the teachings of Paul. So sad for you guys.
(reply to this comment)
Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 18:12
Kelly, you poor, delluded bastard.
You actually believe that TF leadership has legitimately apologized for the "policies" it supported. The issue isn't about the policies you dipshit! It's about the abuse; the sexual, mental, physical, psychological, emotional abuse that was condoned and encouraged by Berg, your wife Zerby, and you yourself you sick fuck. TF and WS and especially Zerby and yourself Kelly, have never apologized for the abuses committed because you still maintain that the abuses never took place.
I mean you believe just like Hitler said: "If you tell a lie loud enough, often enough, and long enough, people will believe you". Can you believe this shit? I mean Hitler was one psychopath that even Berg didn't empathize with and yet you are adhering to one of his core principals. Are you as bad as Hitler? In my mind yes! You and Zerby, and of course the corpse, have ruined the lives of countless individuals who were under your care. The irony in this is that Hitler didn't disguise what he did. He was trying to exterminate millions of people, namely Jews. You and yours on the other hand, swear that you raise kids in a "Godly" environment where there is more "love" than can be found anywhere else on the planet.
Are you out of your fucking mind?? How stupid do you think we are?? Your mind-games and brainwashing and double-speak may work wonders on those whose brains are numb from years of psychological abuse. But those of us who have 'escaped' your grasp are now able for the first times in our lives to think clearly. That terrifies you doesn't it? We are able to se through your bull shit and see that that's all it really is. You haven't apologized for shit Kelley. Neither has Zerby, and Berg certainly never did before he croaked.
Until you actually apologize and admit that there were countless abuses under your watch and the watch of TF leadership, there will be no end to this "persecution" by "apostates". We demand justice be done and are not going to just sit idly by while you continue to but-fuck our younger siblings and screw up their futures.
Can you deal with that?
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 17:51
This a comment on Kelly (who I spoke with many times in the Family). Peter is a true politician. I believe he actually has a brain and when you bring up legitimate issues he can wrap his brain around them. He of course never answers the issues head on. At the summit 96 he used to brag that, "Gary and I are the top WS weasels" this is God's honest word for word what he said, and he said it more than once. I have never met Zerby, and my conclusion on her is based on my impressions, which I freely admit could be somewhat off. However it seems to me she truely does live in a bizzare and in a very real sense insane world. I think she gets "prophecies" from people that can be nothing but made up, due to the characters like Don Quixote being fictional and she believes them 100%. Even if she is proven to be dead wrong she has no capacity to process logic anymore. In a certain way that makes someone like Kelly who is just playing for his own gain in some sense even more responsible. I am sure he rationalises things and tells himself he is working for the greater good etc, but I think when he tries to deceive, he avoids if possible technical lies, because he is capable of knowing the difference between truth and lies. So when he tries to leave people with a completely false understanding of something without seriously flat out lying, he knows that he is twisting the truth in a travesty. Again I see this as worse in a way then someone who lives in a total black and white dream world. He is a politician with no morals! One day I will have to post what he told me when I flat out asked if Berg had sex with minors after it was an excom offense.
(reply to this comment)
|from moon beam|
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 09:43
You really are a twisted fuck.
There is no possible way for you and Zerby to really see the error of your ways or the sheer evil you have caused to your "faithfull flock" without coming to us with a true humble spirit, begging for forgiveness and outwardly changing your ways. But you are not, you continue to "throw stones" at your victims.
Not only have you moved your following as far away from true christian morals and principles than one could possibly go whilst still claiming to be a christian, you have trodden and dismantled the very concept of human rights.
Spirituality is a choice, a free choice. But you have blackmailed your sheep into doing the most inhumane of actions, (divorce, separations, motherless and fatherless children, sex with children, harsh beatings,) by your constant control, scare tactics and "your so out of the spirit" "this is what the lord wants" bullshit.
You have now stated that our younger brothers and sisters, mothers or fathers should not be in contact with us directly, as you know that once they start hearing another way, they will start to think for themselves and start seeing through your bare faced lies.
We don't need your permission fool.
You should really stop this proud and insulant behaviour, as what you are doing is what you have always done, divide to conquer. You think you and TF are more important than a family being together or knowing eachother or having a relationship? You constantly manipulate those trusting "sheep" in your care. You have made black white, and white black. It will come and bite you in the balls when this younger second gen grow older and like us, want to see justice served. You cannot run away from your sins.
For justice to be served you and Zerby (shame Berg died) have to be held accountable for your part, which is the most guilty. Because you hold the power, the strings. For you two to go unpunished would be a crime. And an acknowledgement that you don't think you are guilty at all.
The Lord justice Ward said that you have to recant(how can you have recanted him when you still use his tools of control? and he still speaks from the grave? you are so illogical! By the way when was this made public? following events as I have done for many years I have not been told about any press conferance where this has been stated.) David berg and his teachings, well here’s one of them and you haven’t recanted it at all, you are still teaching this as seen in your latest GN.
Deborah Davis writes in her book ” There was no place for natural affections; these more or less got in the way and hindered “Gods work” Thus, normal friendships and relationships were rendered useless.”
David Berg says “In our situation, God is trying to teach us the lesson of putting him and his Family first. If you cannot be trusted with a private relationship and keep it in it’s proper perspective-LAST-then God will break it up to insure HE and HIS work gets first place.”
What this did was stop our parents listening to us or being able to go against the sex with children rule or any other rule for that matter. As protecting your family should come last.
This also shows just how jealous Berg was of anyone having a relationship with each other that didn’t include him.
Marriage as an institution threatens loyalty to Berg , through his doctrines on sex and marriage he destroyed it, thus destroying families.
Deborah Davis states; “My father made it quite clear that any inability to “share” sexually with a brother or sister (later with children) demonstrated not only the height of selfishness, but also a severe lack of spirituality;”
Berg says; “You Maria (Zerby) were always the strongest—You started it all! You were the strongest from the beginning. You prayed and talked in tongues, and all I did was interpret. You did it all-& the Lord-& I was just a poor, weak old decrepit instrument!”
After trying to steal Deborah’s husband, Berg decided to “give her a promotion”
Berg says; “ I think I’d given up on myself. I figured my day was over, and mother had given up on me. It almost looked like God had given up on me because I wasn’t seeming to be accomplishing anything.”
“Then Maria (Zerby) came along, and all of a sudden I found somebody who believed in me.”( and didn’t mind that he had fucked his daughters either)
Deborah says; ”Maria’s (Zerby’s) role was crucial. It was very difficult for his own wife and children to see him as anything but a father. For me to suspend that part of my intellect and belief-envisioning him as God’s end time prophet-was always a great source of doubt. We who knew him as a man with all his faults and weaknesses( including paedophilia). Thus Maria’s role served to affirm the prophetic persona in a way that his own family could not.”
(reply to this comment)
| From DarkAngel|
Sunday, February 13, 2005, 07:30
''This also shows just how jealous Berg was of anyone having a relationship with each other that didn’t include him.
Marriage as an institution threatens loyalty to Berg , through his doctrines on sex and marriage he destroyed it, thus destroying families''.
Very right on ,doesn't this help to see how little the man was?
The amount of pride the poor guy was plagued with!
Also the amount of selfisness is so amazing ,that's why he needed to have pubs constantly claiming his goodness and generosity and all about him and his great persona.
Ha! what a stupid thing to do now when I think about it, who in the world goes around constantly publishing good things about themselves?????
Maria and Peter are the same
Berg couldn't trust the Lord for his disciples to grow naturally in the word and naturally love the Lord he had to throw himself in the way and act as some self proclaimed prophet to control everyone in the group.
When you pull back and wash your brain from Berg's and Maria's trash things become so clear
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 09:40
"Any efforts at reconciliation would need to be based on mutual respect. There would need to be a sincere effort put forth on their part to respect our religious beliefs and lifestyle as well as the right of Family parents to raise their children according to their beliefs. Family members have been encouraged to respect the rights of former members to live the lifestyle of their choosing; the same respect must be accorded to Family members. The former members involved would need to recognize that their public campaigns against the Family demonize and stigmatize our children and could even place them at risk."
Where was the respect for us when we were still children? It's so hypocritical of them to start mentioning the safety of children now, where was the concern before? Mutual respect? Respect is not the air we breathe, it's not a guarantee, you have to earn the stuff. How exactly does an accusation of child molestation aimed at Kelly & Zerby demonize the children? Once again they offer up their young for the salvation of their skin.
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 07:23
Consider the duplicity of these statements:
"Mama and I are not against communication, we’re not against making attempts at reconciliation. Our prayer is that good relations will be strengthened between former and current members, as well as reconciliation and mutual respect for the path that each one has chosen of their own free will. In order for this to happen, though, we need to know that there is sincere effort on the part of those writing these letters to respect our beliefs and choices, rather than it being just a tactical move to fulfill their previously stated goal of dismantling the Family. I hope these overtures are indeed sincere, but because of the above reasons, it is unclear at this time."
"Even if Mama and I were convinced that they truly wanted to make some attempt at reconciliation, it would not be possible at this time"
(reply to this comment)
|from from outerfringes|
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:12
Hey Kelly I still remember at the Hcs when one poor swinging door just got you in the nose and how you became so infuriated ,shouted and gathered about hundred handymen around you to take the door appart immediately...
HA!This door was the devil's tool?????
I had such a laugh that day thinking how not humble and mental you were !
To be honest I never felt at ease around you ,contrary to what a 1000 voices echoes on your pubs.
After all" squeeze don't jerk" is part of your persona isn't it?
Specially after all the wonderfull class on humility and sheperding you were trying to enlighten everyone with.
I so happen to think that you should have been the one humiliated and exposed in front of the 100 or so members at the time.
After all it was just a door,no malice and no bitterness
Things are not getting better for you it looks like ...
I hope the law will catch up with you and Maria ,puts you in the cooler for a few years .
If you truly are a sincere repentant soul you'll come out as Gold and maybe could finish your life fixing and repairing the countless lives that were destroyed by you and Maria's rule.
May be then God wil let you shine a few pairs of shoes in heaven or sweep the basement ! Remenber that one???
Get used to it, you won't escape either in this life or the next .
I do not compare you to simple evil misguided souls such as gang members ,criminals or so ,since most those folks don't even know the bible and some of them get to find the Lord in Jail.
In your case it's a bit more serious and you'll be beaten with many stripes as you knew your master's will.
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 04:53
From Joanna K., second-generation member of the Family International
I can’t help but loathe the way you try to manipulate my ability to choose freely.
How can you manipulate someone's ability?
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 04:01
Have you ever heard of free speech? Well now that we are not in your little cult we are free to speak out about our past without fear of retrubition. I think you all need to address the issues and stop pointing the fingers at your victims. You say the sexual abuse stopped in the 80's but what about all of the physical and mental abuse we were put through on a daily basis. You failed your children so you could play out some fantasy power trip. Get off your high horse and face the facts. Stop telling your members what they can and cannot read, stop trying to controll peoples lives. Haven't you fucked up enough people already? Why don't you let you members make their own informed decision. Perhaps if they knew all the facts and were allowed to think for themselves for once they could make an informed decision. You paint us as demons and killers,people who are trying to destroy your lives. If your members actually came here and read this site they would know differently. Retire already you have done enough.
P.S. To any of you current Family Members who are brave enough to be on this site: You don't have to listen to these idiots, there are many orginazations you could join that do a whole heck of a lot more and perhaps actually read and follow the Bible (remember the book that christianity is based on?) Just open your eyes.
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 02:49
Peter is just full of shit!!! Trying to save his and Maria’s ass!! I met him once 6 yrs ago. He showed us pictures of his sexy hot mama! Even asked us if we thought she looked sexy. I was shocked. Why do we need to think she’s hot?? Her in her sexy little get ups, which at her age she shouldn't even be wearing.
With Ricky going psycho and killing Angela,… there is enough for me to conclude he had an abused childhood. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
(reply to this comment)
Friday, February 11, 2005 - 00:01
"King" Peter, you want us to treat you with respect when you have no respect for us ... it’s quite sad really. We can only start a dialog if you realize that your status as "king" in the Family means nothing in the outside world.
(reply to this comment)
Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 23:31
Nice piece of propaganda. It’s obvious that the “king” is trying very hard to keep TF members from drawing their own conclusions.
I am much too tired to think about this now, but here are a couple things that stood out to me:
“An Answer to Him that Asketh” was such a bogus attempt to blame the “dead guy” to avoid losing an important court case that would have set a precedent for other cases involving TF. I also seem to remember something coming out later that pretty much retracted the "apology." In any case, the dead pedophile they blamed for the abuse still haunts their kitchens, sits on the right hand of God, and speaks from beyond the grave.
Clever how Peter only mentions a minute portion of Justice Ward’s opinion, the whole thing is a much clearer picture of the truth. He should speak for himself when he writes, “These folks feel very free to quote out of context anything written by the Family; they feel free to twist and distort it, to interpret it to fit their spin.”
It drives me crazy that I can’t get the image of the bearded middle-aged, long-haired “King” Peter out of my head as I skimmed through this cult missive. I met the guy, and he was creepy. He fondled and deep kissed a gorgeous SGA friend of mine right in front of her fiancé. She told me later how awful it was to have been so brainwashed to think she was “honored” to have his attention sexually.
Enough, I am going to bed.
(reply to this comment)
Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 23:01
As an admin of this site, let me make this crystal clear for you. You do not dictate to us what we can and cannot say on our own web site. You have no control over what we say here. This is our space.
We did not delete comments because you "pointed them out to us". Some comments were moved off the main page because of a number of votes by the users to move them. That's how this web site works.
I'm sorry that our discussions offend you. I do however refer you to your own policy statement regarding reconciliation with second generation former members that states: "we respect the right of former members to express their feelings and opinions and debate and discuss issues on forums such as [this particular] website." How about actually doing this and respecting our right to work through issues in our own way?
As the web site owner, I personally accept full responsiblity for all the content for this site. If you really believe that this web site is responsible for Ricky's actions, promotes hate speech or contains true threats, you should press charges against me. I believe in freedom of speech and am willing to stand up for that. I believe in being accountable for my actions. I made the decision to keep the comments you object to on our site and I accept the responsiblity for that choice.
(reply to this comment)
| From JohnnieWalker|
Friday, February 11, 2005, 12:51
You'd think Peter would be intelligent enough to at least read the FAQs of a website before he makes a complete ass out of himself by stating that the administrators of this site are irresponsible.
From the FAQs:
18. Who is responsible and/or liable for what is written on this Web site?
The owner of this site (that would be me, Jules) is liable for anything written on here. No one is suing anyone else apart from me for what is written down here. If anyone threatens you privately or on the site, please refer them to me. My contact info is easily obtained and I take full legal responsibility for this web site, whether I personally agree with the participants or not.
If anyone believes any statement made here to be false, they are welcome to clear their name themselves. If they wish to take legal action instead, I solely and personally claim full liability and they should come after me.
Last update of FAQs: May 8, 2004
http://www.movingon.org/faqs.asp#18(reply to this comment)
| From challenger|
Thursday, February 10, 2005, 23:24
Kelly get a load of yourself.
No, don't, you do not need to, as it does not matter what you do or say to us, it is not a determenent to us who will point out very subtlly what it is exactly that was done that was not properly reconcilled.
I will start with a new idea, although it is not the most importaint how about false profices, about Jesus coming back that kept our parents in the group another 5 more years or more or better yet just wait till Davidito is old enough to lead. Our parents made the choice just like you did to follow they gave up stable choices that would have aided them in their retirment, and gave up a life they apologize for not giving us. The difference is you are financially stable and they are not. Reconcile that.(reply to this comment)