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from figaro Monday, March 05, 2007 - 12:44 (Agree/Disagree?) this sounds just like my father luke! what luke is it? (reply to this comment)

from Sir Rantalot Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:28 (Agree/Disagree?) More than anything I feel pity for TF members now, and also a sense of frustration at „why can’t they get it..“.. it’s taught me a lot about human nature. I also have become more careful at recognizing my own illusions and denials, the easiest mistake to make is to leave TF and think now you are free from all illusions, you now know how it all works. TF members may be cult members but they are still humans and denial is common human nature. Life is one big illusion, a big joke, their(and perhaps humans in general) mistake is taking life too seriously. I am this illusion and I am not this illusion, so have a good laugh about the absurdity of it all! I proved all the doom prophets wrong(TF and non), saying I would destroy myself with my partying. On the contrary, in SA I got promoted to IT manager and head of collections department in the time I was partying hardest. Sometimes I wonder myself how I did it, meetings with directors while seeing crazy things due to sleep dep. I gradually lost interest, no I didn’t get hooked, and I must say it pulled out the best in me. So much for the stereotypes, the responsible user does exist, I’m living proof. I’ve volunteered for a year Italian army service, alpine infantry, another experience to tackle and succeed in. To give myself value and to feel more “alive”, easy, repetitive life kills me after a while, I’m not sure if that’s a curse or a good thing.. peace (reply to this comment)

from Sir Rantalot Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 05:15 (Agree/Disagree?) This is his reply:Dear Ivan, Greetings of love in Jesus' Name! I am sorry to hear from your lastest letters of your extreme bitterness against the Lord and the Family. I won't apologise for any wrongs done as it has already been done officially. I can only apologise for what I did personally, but since you weren't involved it wouldn't make any difference to you. I still hate the God damned system in which I was raised , but I don't try to get you out of it and back into the Family. You are of age and can do what you want with your life. If you want a living hell that is your business. It seems to me that you are in the depths of bitterness against what I stand for in the Family and have absolutely no respect for me and don't mind loudly criticising and blasting everything I stand for. I had to put up with some of my family who did not like my life style about thirty years ago and so I had to cut off relations with them untill they showed me a little respect and love and then I was able to visit them occasionally. So, dear Ivan, now it is 2003 and I am not about to put up with it again from anyone including you. I can still pray for you from here, but if you send me anything against the Family, Jesus or send me other demonic writings I will just delete them and answer you nothing. I don't know what else we can write each other about as it seems we have very little in common. I live the life as a missionary and you know what I do but don't like it. Maybe in the future if you move back towards Jesus and get some real faith then we can talk about something in common. Yes, I am expecting you to change in this matter, because I am not about to backslide against the Lord and the Family. I am one of those forever Pisces and would rather be dead. I am sorry we had to meet during this time of your life and would have hoped for a more enjoyable, pleasant experience. The Spirit and Love must be supreme to me and I have my convictions. I hate the Devil and his work and won't give him any place. If you can't recognise his agents and spout off his garbage then we won't be communicating at all. Sad and Mad, Luke I claim the keys of victory! I will not accept defeat! Hell no, I haven't even begun to fight! (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Sunday, October 05, 2003, 16:45 (Agree/Disagree?) You can tell the difference between a Family Person and a System one usually because the family one will basically quote things that we've all heard before in prophecy or berg's philosophy related spouts without adding any new innovative idea to the debate.They'll just assume that the pre cooked gargon will "ward off" evel as if their "anointed" speakers words meant anything at all to the rest of us. Dad really has begun living on automatic.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Friday, October 03, 2003, 12:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I thought this was a joke, at first. It is so delusional, off-base, detached from reality, that I thought it was a spoof. I mean really, "forever Pisces?" Astrology?! Dude, you play right into the stereotype of a cult member. "Demonic writings?!" Could you be anymore superstitious and paranoid? Can you not discuss issues rationally? Is that now beyond your ability? Even Claire Borowik does a better job of attempting to appear normal and argue rationally, although she distorts so much. I would have thought the "father" and son's responses would have been reversed. This response is so adolescent, while the original letter is insightful and thoughtful and tolerant and rational. Luke sounds like the little girls who accused women of witchcraft in old Salem, like Abigail Williams. "Her spirit vexes and pricks me!!!" (Insert high pitch girlish voice, screams, fainting, writhing around and various other dog and pony show tactics.) I mean really?! Are you kidding? You're possessed is the best you can do? "Apologized officially?!" What an irresponsible, unevolved cope out and excuse for a grown man! (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 23:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Since when is having unconditional love for one's children "backsliding against the Lord and The Family"?? You are putting your love for your son on the condition that he act, think and live like you. Is that a good example of "God's love"? Perhaps you could extend the same empathy and compassion you pretend to give to strangers on a daily basis to your own son! Does being a missionary and "saving" souls absolve parents of their responsibilities?? Your son is reaching out to you, you dunce!! Do your "convictions" having no sense of responsibility, empathy, or compassion to your own flesh and blood?? With the response he gets from you one can hardly blame your son for being bitter against you! You can "claim the keys" all you want and "refuse to accept defeat", but the sad fact is that you have already proven yourself to be a miserable failure at fatherhood!(reply to this comment)

From Christy Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 19:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Wow, Luke! What a beautiful example of unconditional love. Your son is lucky to have such a supportive father. Yuck!!!!(reply to this comment)

From Tim R Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 18:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Well Luke, we have one thing in common, I also "still hate the God damned system in which I was raised." (reply to this comment)

From katrim4 Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 17:16 (Agree/Disagree?) It's these kinds of posts that me sick. I don't care what the f*#@ my daughter ever decides to do or not to do I would never "not be communicating at all" with her. What kind of a threat is that? "I'll only love you if you act and think in a way that I aprove of." And what in the hell is with the powers of the keys? Give it up already people, keys or no keys, you're not going to get a "victory" over your children. Maybe next time they should claim the power of the condoms and not have so many damn children that they have to listen to when they "spout off the devils garbage". When will these "I don't have any plans for my retirement" losers learn that life is a lot of work even if you are in a cult and have most if not all of your decisions made for you. You can't just spout off a bunch of spiritual sounding gibberish, close your eyse and hope it will all go away. Great, now I need a drink and I can't have one because it's only 2:00 in the afternoon and I'm at work. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, October 02, 2003, 11:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I love it! The power of the condoms! Second only to the power of the checkbook, and of course, the power of "I'm calling my lawyer"! And about needing a drink, I thought you were un-fireable? Let's move back to Spain, where every day at 2 we can knock off work for two hours to have the menu del dia, a couple bottles of wine, and a nice siesta, stumbling back to work at 4 or 5 to put in a few more measly hours. In the meantime, just have a smoke!(reply to this comment)

From katrim4 Thursday, October 02, 2003, 12:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, the good old "Bailey's in the coffee" trick is getting pretty old. Maybe I sould consider a schedule closer to my Mexican roots. (See there, I almost said a latin schedule but remembered your lecture on how that is an icorect term and just didn't want to hear it again.) (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, October 02, 2003, 16:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh my God, is that we talked about the other night? Maybe I should quit drinking again!(reply to this comment)

From Mir Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 16:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Ugh!!! What a pathetic individual!!! SirR, don't get your knickers in a twist over this guy- I know he is your father, but he is stuck in a time warp and nothing you or anyone else can do is going to get him out of it. I do feel for you though, it must be horribly painful to get a letter like that from a father! (reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 09:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Luke, How old are you? I think we're the same generation, but I get the distinct feeling from reading this response to your son that you're stuck somewhere in adolescence. "I still hate the G-damned system in which I was raised" is a counter-dependent position. In other words, you have to be against something in order to define where you stand. That's very adolescent world-view, as is the oppositional-defiant stance of "hell no, I haven't even begun to fight." Your words seethe with anger and bitterness, Luke, but that fact is too scarey for you to see. I suppose if I'd spent the better part of my adult life in TF, I'd be angry and bitter, too. And scared as hell. It's easier to all project that onto your son. Much easier than owning your deepest fears and resentments.(reply to this comment)

From Sir Rantalot Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 06:00 (Agree/Disagree?) My reply: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Why do you show no respect for me? I’m not asking you to say sorry for wrongs you did, I was questioning your reasons behind you re-joining a cult which up until recently, condoned child abuse. I was not assuming you were some horrible child abuser, but if you were to join a neo-nazi group I would let you know of their faults. First of all I’m not extremely bitter against the Family, I don’t know how you can assume that. There is life after the family, and I’ve got a REAL life to live, friends, hobbies. Making judgments on my attitude instead of really listening to what I have to say is insulting to me. I take the time to put down well-written letters & all you can counter me with is my assumed bitterness?? You obviously have nothing valid to counter my arguments with, and all you have left to attack me with is blind fanaticism. With your last letter you confirmed my suspects, you’re a deluded cult member to the core, I pity you. I’m also disgusted by the fact that you do not take me seriously, and think my bitterness and rebellion are just passing teen fads. This is insulting to me, I’m 21, not a confused kiddie, I’ve never felt more confident about my worldview. Can’t you tell from my e-mails that I’m not just a kiddie trying to be offensive? Your letter is just plain blind-beyond-reason fanaticism, and attempting to inflict fear in “god” in me is not a valid argument. I’ll stop now before I start saying some really insulting things. Convictions? To me they appear as blind insanity. I will always read your e-mails in their entirety, and as soon as you have something intelligent to say in them, my comments will cease to sound vaguely insulting & my respect for you may increase. Regards, Ivan Love is the law, love under will.(reply to this comment)

From pharmaboy Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 06:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Those Crowley phrases were simply to be annoying, as all his letters always have some power of the keys crap. He can go fuck himself, I'm never writing him again.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Sunday, October 05, 2003, 22:51 (Agree/Disagree?) PB, I really am sorry your dad is such an idiot. I know it's no comfort but I really do know how this feels. Someone just posted a CQ for "Corrie Tenboom" and it reminded me (after all the brain cells I have killed, why do these memories still come?) that my dad gave me a copy of her book after I confronted him on what he and mom had done to us and the abuse we went through in the Family. He told me that he was praying that I could forgive and learn to love the way she did. And yet he is STILL A MEMBER OF THAT GROUP. That's not being a German, that's being a member of the Nazi party. I talk to my parents about once a week and I love them. I try to have a "normal" relationship (or at least some sort of one) and as long as I don't say anything about their involvement with a group that abused their own children and devastated and ravaged our lives, it's fine. If I say anything about the Family, there is just an awkward silence or the same sort of nonsense that your idiot father sent you. I don't understand what is wrong with these parents. Why can't they understand that their callousness and pathological disengagement hurts? I don't know. I spent so many years wondering what was wrong with me, and what my flaws were to make me not deserving of their love. I know intellectually now that the fault lies with them and their stunted emotional maturity and they will never take a parental role in my life. On some level though, the question of "what is wrong with me?" is always there and affects every aspect of my relationships now. (reply to this comment)

From Mir Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 16:39 (Agree/Disagree?) What do you mean by "Those Crowley phrases were simply to be annoying"?(reply to this comment)

From pharmaboy Friday, October 03, 2003, 06:07 (Agree/Disagree?) "love is the law, love under will" "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" I put those in my letter because his letters always have stuff like "greetings in jesus christ, our loving gay husband"....(reply to this comment)

From Webel Wednesday, October 01, 2003, 10:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree! I think it's time to let go, maybe one day he will come to his senses (and I pray he will) because he sounds like he is certifiable saying all that crap about "keys" the people stuck in the TF are worthy of our pity, and shouldn't be a target of our anger! all they need is a few days out of that controlling environment to chill out and have and a few beers with genuine down to earth people and they will become sensible human beings! until then, we can't expect them to make any sense. BTW Christianity and the Bible is a wonderful thing, and people who have used the name of God to further their own personal agenda are going to be held accountable when they stand before Him! Christians are not Christ and never can be - the sooner people separate the two, the sooner they will know the truth - I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah because I choose to - not out of fear of going to hell, but because I love him, He healed all the wounds and destruction in my life that was caused by all that filth and insanity of TF (it took years!) and I have found him to be righteous, merciful, loving, forgiving but also a God that does not tolerate child molesters who ruin the lives of innocent children - he will administer justice to all those who have hurt us and his justice is higher and should be feared more than any revenge that humans can give out because it goes beyond the grave!!! If you are reading this Zerby or Amsterdam, God knows how you have cursed and damned this generation after abusing them and throwing them out like garbage! but the curse and damnation will come upon you for what you have done!!!(reply to this comment)

from frmrjoyish Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 21:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I thought that this was very well written and heartfelt. It'd be interesting to hear what sort of reply you get! (reply to this comment)

from Tim R Monday, September 29, 2003 - 23:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Great article Pharma, it always amazes me how Family members seem to think we spend all of our time complaining about them and "dwelling on the past". Maybe the first few months after you leave it's a big deal, but now that I'm not living by "Faith" anymore, (Trans: Faith that someone with a real job will support you.) I've got much better things to worry about. I'm lucky if I can fit in more than a couple hours of bitterness a week. (reply to this comment)

From krystine Thursday, October 02, 2003, 22:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I just wanted to comment on the dwelling on your past issue. Not only do current cult members think that we're moaning and groaning on this website but many replied comments that are posted in response to problems and dilemmas I've had and I've read that other people posted are to "get on with your life and stop dwelling in the past." I know that seems obvious but what is one of the reasons this website is for but to share with others about the past. The person that keeps saying "move on with your life" is guilty of the same issue because if he or she had truely moved on they wouldn't been logged on in the first place unless it was solely to help transitioners. This website is great for me because this is the chance I can communicate with others in the same boat and come from the same background so I don't have to deal with it with someone who does not understand where I'm coming from. That's not to say I walk around blaming TF for all my problems and I don't walk around harboring extreme bitterness, but honestly, if everyone here has truely moved on with their lives no one would be logging on this website. (reply to this comment)

From Tim R Friday, October 03, 2003, 02:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree, many of the people who accuse others of "not having moved on" seem to be some of the individuals most damaged by the COG (IE: 7*). For me at least, talking about the past and reading other SGA's survival stories IS part of the process of getting on with my life. When I first left I pretty much just walked away and didn't talk about, or even really think about my life in The Family. Eventually I got tired of having my life divided into two sections, and decided I wanted to understand what had happened to me and my friends. Your childhood has a big effect on you, and I don't think it's healthy just to turn your back on it and shut the memories out. All those "Bundles of Faith" are going to unravel someday, it might as well be now. (reply to this comment)

From Webel Friday, October 03, 2003, 13:30 (Agree/Disagree?) The little "bundles of faith" turned out to be a load of stinking s***! they certainly didn't pay the bills when we came out skint and without an education!!! I don't know about you but mine didn't unravel, I had to unwrap them and it hurt like hell!(reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, October 02, 2003, 23:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Or, some of us log on to this site out of curiosity and momentary boredom!(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Sunday, October 05, 2003, 17:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Yea, somtimes we log out of boredome, sometimes it's interesting to hear how the rest of the exSGAs are living thier life, because humans compare sometimes, and sometimes, I'm just curious to see if we'll ever meet up again in one big ex-member youth gathering... Now talk about an interesting sociological experiment. We could have reverse inspirations every day, and skits about how we really lived, make it on time for Satan Job time, and then all plot to nuke the family... lol! No I suspect the ones that are still in are either so isolated out there in the field where they might have something of a life half resembling a pioneer home with as functional a habitat as possible, or if they're anywhere close to civilisation they're so fucked in the head by all the back and forth volleys that they've just decided to live in self denial, swallow all the wichhunt talk and go on automatic, and they're chosing the family as their blind form of transportation. But I don't think that in ten years from now they'll be quite as free to be assholes as today, when many of us become a bit more refined in the art of understanding karmic retribution, and finding political ways of using leverage to make it right. Some will be pused to a deciding point to look and wake up or suffer the consequences for blind following.(reply to this comment)