Getting Real : Speak your peace
Good cop, bad cop. Which one are you?
from Eva St John - Wednesday, November 23, 2005
accessed 1603 times
Excerpt: I think what a lot of us ex members are doing in our relating to TF is playing the game of 'good cop, bad cop'. Some of us TF labels 'friends' and some of us TF labels 'enemies'. Some 'friends' are still entrenched in TF's mindset and aren't much use to anyone. Other 'friends' actually have their eyes open and are in agreement with the 'enemies' about what's really going down, but they see the solution as encompassing ongoing relationship with those members they've formed strong ties with.
In terms of personality types, the bad cops are the 'thinkers' and the good cops are the 'feelers'. To the thinker, principles are more important than relationships. To the feeler, relationships are more important than principles. Thinkers tend to view the interceding feelers as sentimental, wishy-washy cowards. And feelers tend to view the truth-telling thinkers as contrary, abrasive extremist
Benz to Eva:
I'm sure others have had different experiences to my own, but I haven't heard of any serious abuses or crimes personally. I take on board what you've said & agree about the abusive levels of control and manipulation that are endemic in TF's culture. - And this is where I believe a change has a chance of taking place, at the cultural level. I truly think that the more contact TF has with positive segments of society that a cultural change will take place.
I want more than anything for certain people in TF to be brought to justice and sentenced for their crimes. I also think that if those in TF were to realise that this was for their own good, that beginning on a cultural level it would eventually bring about a positive change for the group.
You talk of Hitler, let me talk of Gorbachev and the clever introduction of democratic ideas in to the USSR. Once democracy has been achieved, & it is democratic freedom and freedom from suppressive superstition that we desire, then the rest, including the search for justice may be more achievable.
I think we both want roughly the same thing, however ideologically we differ on how that change may be brought about. I think in time it will be a mixture of the two. - Cheers.
Eva to Benz:
I totally agree. I feel a lot of love for a lot for people I know who are still deeply entrenched in TF. And as bombastic as I may be sometimes in my 'scathing denunciations' of their denial and lies, I don't actually feel any sense of 'hate' or 'vengence', although there is (if you will) a 'righteous indignation'-type-anger toward Berg, Zerby, Kelley and the other unrepentant perpetrators, abusers and co-conspirators, and toward their continued self-delusion and power-oriented deceptions.
I think both perceived 'approaches' are necessary because they are in fact, one. As I said 'love and truth are synonymous'. Love is best expressed in truth, and truth is best expressed in love. But 'truthlove' is not always all 'niceness and sweetness', unfortunately. If we want to grow and evolve as human beings, we have to be able to face, accept, embrace and re-integrate our darkest 'shadow selves' so that we can ultimately be whole, and this takes telling ourselves the truth. (I mean the real truth, all the ‘backdoor truth’ we've been refusing to look at). Once we start doing this though, there's no turning back. Pretty soon we can't help telling other people the truth, as well.
A lot of people aren't ready to hear the truth. Fine. Let them be. As long as they're not going around forcing their self delusion on others, taking advantage of the naive, and exploiting or harming the innocent.
If they are, first you try the gentle approach, which is what I did originally when leaving TF. But when this didn't work and I watched things steadily grow worse for the SG's, and TF leaders were making teens I personally knew to have been involved in stuff as children go on TV and deny everything, I realized someone had to do something and go public. I never dreamed I'd still be doing it 13 years later.
What I'm trying to say is, what I think a lot of us ex members are doing in our relating to TF is playing the game of 'good cop, bad cop'. Some of us TF labels 'friends' and some of us TF labels 'enemies'. Some 'friends' are still entrenched in TF's mindset and aren't much use to anyone. Other 'friends' actually have their eyes open and are in agreement with the 'enemies' about what's really going down, but they see the solution as encompassing ongoing relationship with those members they've formed strong ties with.
In terms of personality types, the bad cops are the 'thinkers' and the good cops are the 'feelers'. To the thinker, principles are more important than relationships. To the feeler, relationships are more important than principles. Thinkers tend to view the interceding feelers as sentimental, wishy-washy cowards. And feelers tend to view the truth-telling thinkers as contrary, abrasive extremists. In reality both thinkers and feelers need each other for there to be balance. - Lovetruth. – (That's what I believe in now).
It's as if we choose which of these two aspects we're going to focus on in a given situation and then play out the role it entails. Somehow, without ever wanting to or planning to, and with no encouragement from anyone to do so, me and not a few ex SG’s in the world have ended up playing the role of 'bad cop', because we're the type who don't give a fuck what it costs us, we're gonna lay it out and tell it like it is. - Cause it's the principle of the matter! (Tee hee). - But we’re needed - to balance out the silent majority of feelers who secretly agree but would rather not create adversity or discomfort for themselves or others by saying or doing anything too ‘brash’.
(God, I wish I could be a little less verbose in my replies. Must be the 'frustrated writer' coming out).
Anyhow….Cheers - Eva
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Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 19:59
Does any one know what 'green mailing' is? (Re: comment below). I haven't a clue. Is it the term used for 'blackmailing' by politically correct conservationists?
(Anyhow....Eva's 'official reply' for now):
I'm away having a wonderful holiday and am not going to waste more than 2 minutes of it on this poor, disturbed jerk (below), who clearly has nothing better to do over Christmas and the New Year than compose bogus, vitriolic 'press releases' attacking a concerned outspoken mother, supposedly disseminated to 100,000 media outlets??? Oh, pu-lease.
You don't even realize that you give yourself away as a pathologically delusional and patently dishonest individual in virtually every sentence you write. I kinda like the label 'avante guard high priestess of bloggers' though. Sounds very impressive, especially for someone like me who is barely internet literate and usually only spends a couple of hours total a week on the Web. Is there a badge or an award that goes with this title?
Anyhow, I'm off to the beach for some more boogey boarding. I'll leave it up to the Oz investigating authorities and the men in white coats to deal with this poor sod. Ta ta for now.
(reply to this comment)
| From ESJ & family & friends|
Tuesday, January 03, 2006, 21:36
For the sake of media researchers, government investigators and other new visitors to this site who do not yet know the background or the actual facts pertaining to the allegations made by the party/ies in the statement below, the following ‘assertions’ made by them can be readily found to be completely fictitious and imagined and have no basis in reality whatsoever.
These statements are entirely false:
“…critics of this site denied access.” / “…critics of this site are censored in denial of…free speech…” / “When it comes to religious intolerance first prize must go to…"Moving On" and “Xfamily”.”
- (There is open tolerance of all religious and anti-religious views voiced here, provided they are not supporting child abuse, or deceptive, coercive and harmful practices, or maliciously spamming the site with ‘hate mail’ ad infinitum to satisfy a malevolent ulterior agenda, as this party has been doing. Even so, their ‘poison pen’ vitriol has not been removed entirely but merely voted onto the ‘unsubstantiated garbage’ section of the site as an example of the mental deterioration and moral degeneration of TFI’s members and affiliates).
[Moving On and xFamily sites] “…promot(e) a video planning a recent murder suicide in the US..”.
- (No ‘promoting’ of such is being done whatsoever. Like other media and video footage available on Moving On and xFamily, it is merely being used as an important example of the tragic results of The Family International’s past child-rearing [child abuse] practices).
“…two (Australian) State Governments launched simultaneous raids on cult homes in New South Wales and Victoria taking into custody over 190 children.”
– (It was not 190, but approximately 130 children that were taken into temporary care while the cult’s harmful child rearing practices were being investigated).
“However when the total resources of both State governments failed to prove one single case of abuse, the courts threw the case out as vexatiously motivated.”
- (The case was most certainly not ‘thrown out’. As in many Family Court cases, there was a court settlement made whereby TFI had to agree to have themselves and their children closely monitored by department social workers for at least the next year or two, and they had to abide by some strict rules and guidelines laid down by the court. There was absolutely no so-called ‘exoneration’ or ‘failure to prove’ or ‘charges dropped’, as TFI claims in their PR literature and media releases about the cases.
If TFI was innocent, as they claim, then why did they agree to the dire imposition of being monitored and supervised and having to implement the court orders of the government welfare authorities, instead of allowing the court process to speedily ‘prove their innocence’? TFI’s willingness to stop the case from going ahead by making a contractual agreement with the welfare authorities to come under their ongoing scrutiny in reality proved their guilt.
Another important point is that the Australian welfare authorities did not get the chance to give any of the children a medical examination for signs of abuse before TFI’s criminal attorneys managed to pull legal strings to have the children returned to the cult. The authorities had over 70 witnesses who were submitting sworn affidavits and were willing to come forward and testify against TFI, but again, through the devious antics of TFI’s criminal lawyers, the legal process was underhandedly prolonged and drawn out in order to keep any of the witnesses from taking the stand. This was due to the fact that TFI and its legal team knew that the moment the witnesses took the stand and began ‘telling all’, it would spell certain death to their defense. Thus, due to the probability of the case dragging out for several years and costing millions of dollars, the decision was made to settle the case out of court - which is what happens in the majority of Family Court cases.
Since the time of the Australian raids and court cases, quite a number of the children that were involved in the raids have since left TFI cult as young adults, and have testified that they were, in fact, molested and abused as children, but had been intensively indoctrinated and programmed to deny everything to outsiders, especially to child welfare authorities – who in the cult’s children’s books, are depicted as malevolent wolves in sheep’s clothing not to be trusted).
“The story (re: Eva’s daughter contracting VD at 18 months old) was later debunked by friends of Ms. St John who said she “had VD at the time and transmitted it to her daughter at birth”…”
– (No friends of Eva St John have ever ‘debunked’ her account of this incident, she definately did not have VD at the time of giving birth to her daughter, nor did her daughter have the disease until approximately a week before it was diagnosed. These fictitious claims come solely from TFI cult members and their affiliates themselves under the pretense of being ‘long time friends’ of Eva’s, when they in fact perceive Eva as an ‘arch villain’ for being a whistle-blower to TFI’s criminal practices, and have perceived her as such for the past 15 years since her defection).
“…(her) story was concocted to green mail the group in Australia.” / “…she is seeking to “green mail” the cult in exchange for her silence!” / “Ms St John was livid at not receiving compensation and claimed she would “sue the cult”.
- (Whilst the meaning of the term ‘green mailing’ remains dubious, it appears to be insinuating that Eva’s motive or agenda is to somehow ‘blackmail’ TFI for personal gain. They seem to be implying that she is ‘concocting’ these stories in order to get TFI to ‘pay her off’ for her future silence. As she has been publicly speaking up about TFI’s abuse of its children for the past 15 years, and has never once approached the cult for any form of personal compensation, this is clearly – again – a completely imagined and groundless allegation).
“She is reported to be in hiding from the Australian ABC TV programme "Media Watch" is seeking to interview Ms. St John to answer allegations that she lied to 60 Minutes.”
- (Eva is not ‘in hiding’ from anyone, especially the media who have interviewed her repeatedly, and all her interviews have been corroborated by other first-hand witnesses and copious material evidence. ‘Media Watch’ has been contacted, and according to them the claims alluding to them in the statement above are completely fictitious).
“Ms. St John (is) seeking to launch civil action after being sidelined, missing out in an out of court settlement that saw cult members awarded compensation.”
- (At no time has Eva ever shown any personal interest in, or sought to be involved in, any financial settlement or compensation claim for or against TFI. She does, however, heartily support the idea of the cult’s second generation ex members engaging in a class action against the group).
“…Ms. St John who lived off welfare for decades is seeking a nest egg retirement fund…. Now that the welfare laws are tightening and she is faced with the prospect of getting a fulltime secular job she is seeking to “green mail” the cult in exchange for her silence!”
- (Since leaving TFI Eva has worked consecutively at several full time ‘secular’ jobs, and expended great effort to financially support and care for her family for many years until they were grown and independent. All disparaging insinuations in regards to ‘welfare’ are simply groundless slander and an attempt to cast doubt on Eva’s motives for telling the truth about the cult’s harmful and criminal practices).
“By her own account she frequently worked as a prostitute and made porn videos, blaming the cult for her actions.”
- (They are referring to the fact that on a few occasions Eva – like most female members - was coerced into doing some form of ‘FFing’ and ‘escort work’ while a full time member of TFI in the early 1980’s, which at the time was a ‘doctrinally-taught’ and accepted practice of the cult as a means of bringing in money for the group’s ‘pimp-like’ leaders.
At no time has Eva ever made, or appeared in, any form of ‘porn video’, nor has she – as far as she and her children know – ever even been filmed in any stage of undress, in or out of TF. No such ‘porn videos’ or ‘sex videos’ or ‘striptease videos’ of Eva exist, they are a complete fabrication and product of a malicious and perverted cult imagination. And, contrary to their claim, nor has Eva ever given any ‘account’ of said non-existant video footage or alleged ‘prostitution’ [outside the cult]. She is not, and has never been, a promiscuous individual since her defection from TFI.)
As the writer/s below have made repeated slanderous personal attacks on Eva in an attempt at character assassination to try to discredit her for exposing their crimes, and have bombarded her email inbox with ‘hate mail’ and made personal threats towards her, they have been legally classed as ‘stalkers’ and are being investigated as such by the authorities.
May justice be done. Sincerely, ESJ and family and friends.
(reply to this comment)
|from Greater Victories|
Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 02:31
Eva's sex lies and videos...critics of this hate site denied access
A media release about this hate blog site promoting a disturbing murder suicide being planned has been posted to 100,000 media outlets around the globe. It highlights how critics of this site are censored in denial of the truth and free speech while hate filled religious bloggers run amuck with vexatious allegations of sexual abuse in order to green mail cults, soft targets, in return for silence!
A simple web search revealed several western religious hatred blog sites that have popped up one featuring and promoting a video planning a recent murder suicide in the US.
When it comes to religious intolerance first prize must go to the religious hate blog sites like "Moving On" and “Xfamily”. They boast numerous sites in countries around the world that the authorities to date seem powerless to stop.
Hiding behind a special brand of intolerance it has the facade of exposing abuse in religion while promoting the shrill rhetoric of intolerance slamming just about everyone from the Catholic Church to Scientology and Hare Krishna.
It appears the site hides behind the noble cause of assisting those wishing to make a seamless transition away from religious institutions while on the other hand it promotes videos of murder, sexual abuse and much more. One such video made prior to a murder suicide in July in the USA includes graphic detail of the event being planned.
In Australia and New Zealand another outstanding example of hatred gone mad is avant guard high priestess of bloggers is a Australia, Ms. Eva St John who appeared on 60 Minutes recently with a story titled “Sinful acts”, alleges her 18-month old daughter was sexually molested by Children of God cult members and contracted gonorrheae.
The story was later debunked by friends of Ms. St John who said she “had VD at the time and transmitted it to her daughter at birth”, something she denies as medically impossible yet is widely advertised fact on medical sites all over the web, and that the story was concocted to green mail the group in Australia.”
She is reported to be in hiding from the Australian ABC TV programme "Media Watch" is seeking to interview Ms. St John to answer allegations that she lied to 60 Minutes.
Ms. St John “left school at 16” is a malevolent disaffected former cult member seeking to launch civil action after being sidelined, missing out in an out of court settlement that saw cult members awarded compensation. In one of the largest raids in Australian history two State Governments launched simultaneous raids on cult homes in New South Wales and Victoria taking into custody over 190 children. However when the total resources of both State governments failed to prove one single case of abuse, the courts threw the case out as vexatiously motivated. Ms. St John was livid at not receiving compensation and claimed she would “sue the cult”. More to the point Ms. St John who lived off welfare for decades is seeking a nest egg retirement fund. By her own account she frequently worked as a prostitute and made porn videos, blaming the cult for her actions. Now that the welfare laws are tightening and she is faced with the prospect of getting a fulltime secular job she is seeking to “green mail” the cult in exchange for her silence! She alleges “FBI investigations” in an effort to secure public opinion for her cause.
This is just one sad case that is evidence of the moral decay and misuse of the Internet.
What is worse, the Moving ON site recently censored critics and removed articles exposing the allegations of Eva St John and denied access to anyone who would take a stand against religious hatred and promotion of murder suicide videos. So much for a brave new world of freedom of speech and worship on the Internet! Governments around the world have passed laws against sedition but what are they doing to follow up on this new brand of intolerance?
Something should be done about it?
(reply to this comment)
| From MovingOn Admin|
Sunday, January 01, 2006, 17:42
You said, "What is worse, the Moving ON site recently censored critics and removed articles exposing the allegations of Eva St John and denied access to anyone who would take a stand against religious hatred and promotion of murder suicide videos."
Actually, the MovingOn site did nothing. It can't. It's code and electronic data.
The article you mention was not removed. It was voted into the trailer park by the site's participants. It can still be found here: http://www.movingon.org/trash.asp?sID=2&Cat=42&ID=3375
Furthermore, you seem to be confusing two issues here, namely those of religious intolerance and intolerance of child abuse.
The administrators of MovingOn are neither for nor against religion. The fact that this site's participants share a wide range of religious beliefs and non-beliefs should be evidence enough.
What is, on the other hand, shared by the vast majority of the participants is intolerance of child abuse be it sexual, physical, economical, or through educational neglect.
They also seem to dislike people bolstering their own arguments by pretending to be other users.(reply to this comment)
| From |
Saturday, December 31, 2005, 19:02
"This is just one sad case that is evidence of the moral decay and misuse of the Internet." - It appears your actual complaint is your dissent on moral grounds of the content the entire World Wide Web/ Internet, not just this site. What next? - Should the admin of this site to explain why there are wars, catastrophes and epidemics as well? Maybe they should tuck you into bed and sing you lullabies, tell you that the tooth fairy is real and if you believe in Santa you'll hear the sleigh bells.
To say that this site is intolerant to religion is hillarious. Some members are religious, some are athiests and some just don't care to get into the whole "god", "heaven" and "hell" thing.
But lets just say hypothetically that this was a site dedicated to "athiest" ideology/ philosophy. - If you were to post a blog announcing that "catholicism rules" - you should (or at least the ordinary person with those extra few IQ points you don't have) at the very least expect to be fiercly debated and booed off stage.
Would a christian church website welcome with open arms atheistic remarks without trying to argue their point?
(reply to this comment)
| From Continued from above|
Saturday, December 31, 2005, 20:02
What IS true is that your group "The Children of God/ The Family" DOES discriminate against people from other faiths and religions. - Whereas this site does not discriminate on religious grounds.
Can a Buddhist be a member of your group "The Family"? Can an atheist? How about a Catholic? A Hindu? - Point made! They can't!
This site is not even about religion. - It's about survivors who were raised in a child abusing cult. The only connection between our experience and religion was invented by Berg and created by people like YOU who foster a "religious" system of beliefs which include: Sexually abusing children, psychologically abusing children, depriving children of education so you can keep them your ignorant, helpless subservients. A "religion" which has permitted you to defraud the general public in fund raising activities, a "religion" which teaches the tearing apart of families and of laying curses against member’s own children when those children are seeking lawful justice against crimes committed against them.
Your "religion" is intolerant! - Your beliefs are harmful, your group does not respect lawful justice and the culture you have created encourages abuse, ignorance, hatred, violence against children, fraud, perversions. Further, your culture is not self sustainable - it only exists in a parasitic form, leeching off the society.
The complete irony of COG/ TF's very existence is that they define themselves as 'revolutionaries' who have denounced 'the world', and yet they feed off of society as parasites, unable or uninterested in achieving self-sustainability, or even adequately supporting their own lives, and yet they constantly denounce society when it is in fact only society's pleasant graces even keeping them alive!
I personally accept that I am intolerant of an intolerant religion and abusive culture such as yours. - Hiding behind 'religious intolerance' in order to try and continue to exact your pleasures and desires on innocent children. I am convinced there is only one place for delusional, malingering, sick, foul and reprobate individuals like yourself - a padded dungeon, where you can live where you deserve, in a land made up purely of your own unfulfilled fantasies and isolated from the outside world you hate anyways and wish to be destroyed.
I can't wait for society's institutions to wake up to the dangerous beliefs you hold about society and, considering the harm you have already inflicted give you the option of either enforced rehabilitation or forced incarceration (along with all the other little FG Charles Manson's in your group).
(reply to this comment)
| From urnotsobrightru?|
Saturday, December 31, 2005, 07:32
So you're saying that FF'ing and dancing nude for Berg was alone her idea?How do you explain thousands of other women doing the same thing, not to mention the numerous publications advocating such activities?
The comments by "critics" as you deem them were not censored but rather voted into the trailer park by a number of visitors to this site. One can easily find them if one looks in the proper section.If you're looking for a site with censorship try www.myconclusion.com, www.netlinkup.como or any official site of the Chinese Communist Party.
On a last note the idea that this site incites its members to murder is simply ludicrous and your attempt to use The murder/suicide of Ricky to back that claim (which was simply a tragedy for all parties involved) I find quite appalling.
p.s. Sedition is defined as rebellion against a government or some sort of civil authority. I don't think The Family qualifies.(reply to this comment)
Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:56
Im a sheep in wolf's clothing.
(reply to this comment)
Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:30
That's a rather black and white categorization innit?
(reply to this comment)
| From ESJ|
Wednesday, November 23, 2005, 14:30
If you mean this is a rather limited picture, - absolutely! It is a gross over-simplification of the situation, but still serves the purpose. In reality there are other personality types who also deal with things differently from either the thinkers or the feelers. I’m just using this simple illustration as a way of trying to ‘mend fences’ with those ex members less inclined to speak out.(reply to this comment)
| From Greater Victories|
Saturday, December 31, 2005, 19:33
When you go to court, if you do, you will be cut to shreds as liar.
AQccording to you, you never had VD.
Now you admit it.
You never made videos.
Now you admit it.
You never said you wanted to sue the Family.
No you want money.
No court would believe a word you say.
At the end of the day the rule of law we live under is what will measure your utterings.
Go back to prostitution if anyone will have you.
You stand a betrter chance than a snow flake in hell than the green mail path you are currently on.
Oh, how's the rhinoplasty going?
(reply to this comment)
| From I believe|
Monday, January 02, 2006, 17:06
Blacksheep,greater victories or whatever you call yourself your argument against Eva St John is so tansparent you obviously have taken a serial liking to her ,with your twisting of her story ,personal insults etc on & on bullshit we dont give a flying fuck if eva screwed you, did videos naked ,you know most of the females had to do that even the young ones.You are only on here to exact revenge, for eva probably refusing to share with you because she knew you were pathetic ,it was said you were not even a full time member then why were you hanging around? why do you still defend child abusers?did your children get a proper education?did you have sex with minors?do you still practice TFs bullshit?how old are you?what is your name?where do you live? Can you tell us a little about yourself after all you have attacked her in every way you have even threatened her with violence!Please answer some of these Qs we already know ESJ story ,it would be nice to know a little about you. peace my friend may god -Ala-Budha-thor ,etc shine on you.(reply to this comment)