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Getting Real : Speak your peace

This & That

from Jedran - Saturday, October 16, 2004
accessed 1924 times

Here are some subjects that were addressed in recent GNs that you might (or might not) want to know about and that may (or may not) interest you. They mostly deal with personal issues but there are a few exceptions that give the Family's position on certain things. If you want to get the full GNs. Send me an email and I'll see what I can do.

One section was slightly damaged so there is some text missing. My apologies but it doesn't affect the point of the text.


Dad's Teachings on the Law of Love
WS Prophecies Inaccurate?
Are You Strong Enough to Live the Law of Love?
Is It Smart to Go for the Gold?
"Go for the Gold" Loophole?
Family Planning?
Short-term or Long-term Vision?
The Line Between Female Affection and Lesbianism
"Hands Off" Shepherding
Nudity … To Be or Not to Be?

The issue:
155. (Mama:) Some people seem to think that just because Dad apologized for not setting clearer boundaries in regards to the Law of Love (see "An Answer to Him that Asketh Us," ML #3016, Lifelines 22), that means that everything Dad did that was free or sexy was probably or possibly wrong. They sort of have the attitude that Dad was a "dirty old man" and should have controlled himself better.

God's mind on the matter:
156. (Jesus:) I know that there's a tendency to think that because David apologized for not setting clearer boundaries in regards to the Law of Love, that he might have been admitting basic mistakes in the whole concept. Or, it can give the impression that he was too extreme, and that everything he did regarding sex was unwise or inappropriate.
157. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your prophet was a pioneer. He hacked out of the wilderness some of the basic concepts and truths upon which My world is founded, and in order to do so he had to buck a tremendous amount of pressure of preconceived ideas and mindsets that have ruled the earth since Lucifer and Baal began with the first cover-ups.
158. David simply took you back to the Garden of Eden and uncovered and made known the fact that love is pure, pure, pure. It was a pioneer effort, and who else had ever done such a thing with such clarity and such pinpoint accuracy, in the face of so much opposition? No one, let Me tell you--not with the truth, clarity and preciseness of your Endtime prophet, My mouthpiece whom I used to deliver into your hands, My Endtime children, the truths that I wanted you to live by.
159. The fact of the matter is that when he apologized, David was merely admitting that he could have done a better job in some respects--in those respects where some of his children needed guidelines. David was a busy man. He was busy doing My work‚ carving out the building, and like an architect, designing the walls and entryway and the pillars of this new room for you all to explore. What he didn't realize in his busyness to get the job done, and done as well as he could do it, was that some of you, My friends, would turn it to evil; that some of you would misuse this great truth. So he was simply saying he should have done a better job; he should have prepared for that eventuality, and he didn't. He apologized and said he was wrong in that particular point of the matter, that's all.
160. But just leave it up to Baal and Satan to use that little admission to infiltrate your mind. You should know better than that, and you shouldn't leave yourself so open to any little undermining point that the Enemy might want to use against you. You have the whole building, the whole truth that David uncovered for you, and you look at this one missing nail or this one missing guidepost at the entryway, and you say, "My God, is the whole building faulty?!" No, I tell you, it isn't. But what is faulty is your outlook--your leaving yourself open to such minuscule attacks.
161. That's where you need to strengthen your foundation, your outlook, and ask yourself why you are open to such unfounded attacks. Ask yourself, "What's wrong here? Where's my faith?" Strengthen your faith, brethren. Strengthen your faith, friends. For if the footmen weary you, despite all the truth you have been given to stand upon for years on end, what shall you do when the horsemen come? (End of message.)

In summary:
162. (Mama:) The beautiful building of the Law of Love is a masterpiece in the Lord's eyes. Dad did a great job! His only mistake was not setting clearer guidelines and rules for those who would misuse the liberty the Lord had given us. Strengthen your faith! Don't leave yourself open to such senseless attacks on your foundation and the truth the Lord has given us!

WS Prophecies Inaccurate?

The issue:
1. Some people feel that the prophecies that are received in WS are inaccurate or can't really be applied to their situation, because the channel who received the prophecy isn't in the situation that they're praying about and doesn't have firsthand experience. For example, if we publish a message about fundraising, and the channel who received the message lives in WS and isn't personally hitting the streets every day, some people assume that the person couldn't possibly be a reliable channel to receive an answer from the Lord on that topic.

God's mind on the matter:
2. (Dad:) I know some of you have battles with receiving and applying some of the counsel--especially the more practical type--given in prophecy in the GNs. This isn't so much the case when it comes to spiritual principles, topics like revelations about the keys or counsel on how to overcome your pride. People sometimes have battles with receiving and believing those prophecies, but those are different issues.
3. The particular issue I'm going to talk about is what sometimes comes up when there's practical counsel given in prophecy--messages having to do with things like raising your children, shepherding your teens, witnessing and fundraising. You know that those in WS don't have to do their own fundraising, and they can only witness on relatively rare occasions. You also know that while there are kids in WS units and a few teens, there probably aren't as many per adult as there are in your Home, and the situation is probably a little different.
4. So the Enemy comes in--yes, it's the Enemy, folks--and tells you, "The person who received this message has no clue what it's really like, therefore this isn't really accurate or possible or doable." Sometimes there's also a feeling of, "Mama and Peter don't really understand either. When was the last time they went fundraising? And their kids grew up a long time ago, didn't they?"
5. It's true that those who are receiving the messages that go in the GNs, and Mama and Peter themselves, sometimes don't have a tremendous amount of personal experience, or at least not recent experience, with the issues or activities that are being addressed. It's also true, however, that for the most part, people in WS, including the different channels that receive the messages, and Mama and Peter, have done these things at some point in their lives. It's not like the messages they're receiving are about something that's a totally foreign concept to them.
6. Almost every person in WS has at some point had to raise their own support, just as you do--and it's not an experience you forget about real quickly! Almost every person in WS has done plenty of witnessing of various kinds in their day, and some still do whenever they can--and again, that's an experience that becomes part of you, an indelible and unforgettable part.
7. When it comes to kids, teens, education, or any aspect of home life, it's true that some are not as directly involved with the day-to-day home affairs and care of the children or teens, and because of the more structured lifestyle and having to focus on an office ministry, they are in a different situation than you. But some do take care of kids full-time, and many are with the kids part-time, so they realize what it's like for you. They also live communally, and they also have to work long and hard, and often are involved in things aside from their main ministry.
8. Depending on their work and their position, some of them receive a fair amount of input via your prayer requests, newsletters, board reports, TRF comments‚ pubs reactions, letters to Mama that they help to pray for, etc. And regardless of whether they're privy to that input or not, the Lord is regularly reminding all of them, through prophecy and through their shepherds, Mama and Peter most of all‚ to put themselves in your shoes, so they consciously do that in their work. They know they're there to serve you and help you, and they can't help you very well if they don't understand your situations--so, while they're not perfect, they make a concerted effort along those lines. The Lord is also faithful to bring things into their lives to keep them in touch. He knows it's important, and He brings up situations and circumstances that keep them aware and in touch with what goes on in Homes around the world.
9. Okay, well, I've established that the things that people in WS are receiving prophecies about aren't entirely foreign to them and they aren't entirely clueless. But you know, that's not even really the point. The point is, the Lord has chosen to give His Word to the Family through prophecy, and to give that prophecy through Mama and Peter and their channels in WS, and that's just the way He's chosen to do it! So who are you to question Him or His method for the delivery of His Words? He will use whoever He can. He will speak through whoever is willing to be His channel, and these in WS are willing and available.
10. He's also practical, and He knows that, while you might be the "expert" in outreach, well‚ you're so busy doing it all day that you don't necessarily have time to sit down and receive long messages of instruction about it that can be shared with the whole Family. These folks in WS do. That's their job, that's their calling.
11. It would be great if they had time for doing both, but people are human and you can only really do so much. The Lord has given everyone their calling, whatever it might be, and the calling of those who are in WS receiving these messages is to do just that. Or rather it's part of their calling, and it goes along with their other callings, whether it be childcare, pubs work, administration, or chairing a Faì *** text missing *** se channel it comes through? Or‚ if you believe that the messages aren't really the Lord, but are "speeches" made up by those who think they know what they're talking about, well, then you're probably in the wrong outfit.
13. The Lord is giving a lot, even the majority of His counsel and guidance to the Family today‚ through prophecy-–including the prophecy in the GNs, and the personalized counsel He gives each Home and individual in prophecy. So if you have "prophecy issues" of any kind, it's high time to get over them, or else there's going to be more and more that's going to bother you and hurt your faith and make it difficult for you to believe and obey the Lord's Words. Reread the "Understanding Prophecy" series. Ask the Lord personally about questions or issues you have.
14. What it really all comes down to is this: Do you trust the Lord? Do you have faith in the way He's leading the Family? Do you have faith in His choice to appoint Mama and Peter to lead the Family? Do you have faith in their anointing, and in Mama as Winetaster of the Lord's Words? Do you therefore have faith that the messages that are in the GNs, no matter who's the original channel and what they know or don't know or have done or haven't done, are God's message for the Family?
15. I can't make you believe that. It's between you and the Lord. But that's what this issue comes down to, and I pray that each of you can find the faith from the Lord to accept these things, to flow with them, and to not get so hung up on certain details that you miss out on the one thing that's more important than anything to your spiritual life and service in the Family--the Lord's Words! (End of message.)

Are You Strong Enough to Live the Law of Love?

The issue:
89. (Mama:) Some people promote the idea that it's frowned upon or uncool to live the sexual aspect of the Law of Love and have dates with others if you're married, especially if the dates aren't "sacrificial"--that you're either being disloyal or that it could even be a sign that your marriage is in trouble or that you're not "satisfied" with your mate.
90. An SGA recently wrote the following:

Many YA/SGAs (not just the married ones) who I know in the Family are quite proud of the fact that they don't practice the sexual side of the Law of Love. I'm not saying that everyone thinks like this; I'm not saying that I know the majority of YAs or SGAs in the Family. I'm sure that there are young couples who are living the Law of Love to the full, it's just that I don't personally know of any. The attitude that many people seem to have is this: It's fine to sleep around if you're single, but if you're married or in a relationship with someone, then it's like a point of honor or pride that they don't sleep with anyone else apart from their boyfriend/husband, girlfriend/wife.

God's mind on the matter:
91. (Jesus:) It's just plain ridiculous to be proud of not living some aspect of the Law of Love. In My eyes, a couple that shares sexually outside their marriage with the agreement of all parties, in accordance with the Law of Love, is showing a great deal of maturity. It's a sign of strength--not weakness--when a couple is able to reach out sexually, giving to others and receiving from others.
92. I want you couples to be proud of your obedience to the Law of Love. I want you to make it a challenge to build the type of relationship where your lives are open to others while remaining committed to your partner and continuing to grow in love. Living the sexual aspect of the Law of Love doesn't have to take anything away from your marriage. Let this sexual openness bring you closer together and give you the opportunity to show your mate that you love and appreciate him or her more than ever for their obedience and sacrifices to practice the Law of Love.
93. The attitude of exclusiveness, of sexual fidelity to only one's spouse being a sign of a good relationship is a perfect example of how worldly input can influence and hinder My children. Some of you might think that just because you don't have nightmares after watching a questionable movie or reading a questionable novel, that you're unaffected by System input. However‚ if you agree with this exclusive and closed attitude being the ideal, or even agree with it slightly, there's a good chance you are being very negatively affected by worldly input. Even movies, books, etc., that might be recommended or seem harmless, can still be filled with insidious lies and attitudes that are contrary to the life of a revolutionary Christian. So be aware!
94. And even if you haven't gained this attitude through input of System media, the attitude itself has seeped through the ranks and spread through many of you passing it on by your actions, attitudes or conversations. You haven't intended to tear down My Word and My truth, but in reality, when you're proud of your lack of obedience, when you push something aside as "not for me," that's what you're doing.
95. The selfish way is the easy way. The worldly concept of "fidelity" might be a great excuse for some of you to disregard this part of the Law of Love, but it's still disobedience, it's still displeasing to Me, and you're still missing an important and wonderful way to grow in your marriage or relationship. The degree that you live the Law of Love is according to your own faith, but to actually be proud of your failure to live the Law of Love is both laughable and also very sad. So stop being a coward, hiding behind these lazy, pointless System attitudes of pride, and start reaching out.
96. Use the Law of Love to enhance your relationship. The secret is to give; not to use the Law of Love solely to satisfy your personal lusts for more sex; not to spend time with others to the point that you are neglecting your significant other; not to go about having sex unprayerfully or secretively, but to love, love, love, and give, give, give! If you have the strength and courage to eliminate these stupid System attitudes and to practice the Law of Love the way it was meant to be practiced, you'll reap massive benefits and bring a whole new level of happiness to your relationship. (End of message.)

Is It Smart to Go for the Gold?

The issue:
1. It seems that quite a few people in the Family today think, and some even actively promote, that "going for the gold" and having several or many children is somehow not smart, it's irresponsible, or an unwise decision. They have sometimes made the decision that they don't want to have kids right now, or maybe only one or two, and they criticize or look down on others who have had many kids and continue to have kids, rather than supporting them and encouraging them for their faith and sacrificial decision.

God's mind on the matter:
2. (Jesus:) I love life and I love children, and if you don't, then you're way off the radar! If you think people who have several or many children are unintelligent, irresponsible, or unwise for having them, then you'd better reexamine where your priorities have gone and how influenced your thinking has become.
3. Remember that I'm the creator of life, the creator of children. And if you think that parents working with Me to create life, to create children, is an old-fashioned decision or a dumb choice, then I'll tell you what I think. I think your perspective is selfish, short-sighted and immature, and too influenced by the worldly climate of today. Maybe you'd better take a little time to review what I've said about how important children are to Me, and how much of a blessing they are ordained to be in your life, through teaching you unselfishness, giving, faith, love, wisdom, and becoming an integral part of your Home and ministry.
4. And one more thing: By having that attitude toward those who have chosen to unselfishly go for the gold, you're telling Me that My decision to create children in the first place and to give them to those who are willing to receive them is dumb. You're pointing the finger at Me, because I'm the One Who calls the shots. You're calling Me stupid and irresponsible. You're calling Me odd and strange and uncool and "not with the program."
5. I'll tell you what I think about those who are "going for the gold," those who are willing to make the sacrifices to bear children for Me and train and raise them in My heritage, preparing them well for whatever path of life their children eventually choose: They're the ones I'd call smart and responsible! They show up on My radar screen as bright, shining lights, because I'm proud of their yieldedness to Me.
6. Creating children is one of My favorite activities, and I'm not about to stop anytime soon. If you've got a problem with it, you'd better examine your heart and get used to it, because this creating talent of Mine is here to stay! (End of message.)

In summary:
7. (Mama:) God loves children, and Peter and I do too, and we're extremely proud of all you parents who are sacrificing every day to invest in the future by loving and training and bearing more and more children for the Kingdom of God! You are our heroes! If someone criticizes you for the beautiful faith you manifest in "going for the gold," that's their problem, not yours!

"Go for the Gold" Loophole?

The issue:
25. (Mama:) Some young couples prefer to stay in a permanent boyfriend/girlfriend relationship rather than getting officially mated or married. Some of them have chosen this option because they don't feel "ready" to have children, and by not getting married they are not under the guidelines of "go for the gold" for married couples. In every way they are "married"--because they have been a steady boyfriend/girlfriend for some time, and in many cases even live together in the same room--but by not officially getting together they "save" themselves from being responsible to bear children.

God's mind on the matter:
26. (Jesus:) Those of you who are using the semantics of "go for the gold" to avoid having children are completely missing the point. The point of going for the gold is trusting Me and being within My perfect will for your situation. So if you're praying and I've shown you that you should remain in a long-term relationship, without the commitment of marriage or getting mated, then you're hitting the nail squarely on the head, and you are indeed going for the gold. Good for you!
27. On the other hand, if you're going out of your way to not marry for the sole purpose of avoiding the "go for the gold" issue or because you don't want to deal with the "commitment," then there's a good chance you're not even hitting brass, because if I tell you it is My highest will for you to have children--which is very likely if you're a couple and it's My will for you to remain together--then by trying to skirt the issue completely, you're not truly obeying Me.
28. Some of you just need to face the music. Have you been faithfully asking Me about your relationship and what My highest will is for you? Have you been open to Me? Have you honestly discussed it with your significant other and shared what I have given you? I'm not trying to rush you, and it's wise to go slow. But some of you have allowed your relationship to stagnate because you are worried or afraid of what I might tell you if you asked Me to speak to you about it.
29. Some of you have worries or fears about "what if things don't work out," or you have things in your heart that you need to resolve with Me--issues about broken families or children being raised by a single parent. I know all that's in your heart, and I have answers for you and advice for your personal situation. But if you're not asking Me, then you're just carrying those burdens, and in the meantime don't have the faith to fulfill My will for you, and so you're not as blessed or as happy as you could be.
30. You might think that you will be happier staying as a "semi-committed" couple, without the full commitment of marriage or being mated. But if it's My will for you to be together, being married and raising a family opens up a whole new world of growth and lessons and spiritual progress. Of course, the key is, "if it's My will for you," and that's something important you have to find out. But I want to encourage those of you who haven't heard from Me about this in a while to do so. Ask others to hear from Me for you too, if you have the faith. The confirmations and additional instruction and counsel can be very helpful, and encouraging in the tough times.
31. And, in all this, remember that I will go according to your faith. If you pray and I tell you it's My will for you to have kids, and you still don't have the faith to take the plunge yet, then just humbly accept that for now you're going to go for the silver by asking Me how you should do things within your faith and circumstances. I'm not going to label you or look at you differently, or love you less, or judge you for your lack of faith. You may miss out on blessings, but the important thing is that you are obeying My Word, which is this: "According to your faith be it unto you." And then as you obey and continue coming back to Me for confirmation and instruction, your faith will grow, and My blessings will grow too. Just keep asking Me; stay in touch with Me on the matter.
32. Until you take the time to be open and honest with Me and with each other and to make the decision of faith, then I can't even give you a silver or brass medal, because you're not even in the race. So strap on your shoes and jump in, and you'll receive blessings for that alone. (End of message.)

33. (Mama:) Peter and I think it's very wise to go slow in relationships, and most of all to go at the pace the Lord leads you. We're all for that. The important thing is, let the Lord lead you, and be open to Him! As He said in the previous message, keep going back to Him and asking Him for counsel on your relationship and your decisions. Don't be so set on what you think you want that you close yourself off to what the Lord knows would make you truly happy. That applies to having children, choosing fields and ministries, living the Law of Love, the direction your relationship takes or doesn't take, and every aspect of your life!
34. The wonderful thing is, when you're seeking the Lord regularly like that, and opening up for Him to speak to you specifically in prophecy about your relationship, He'll not only encourage you to move at the pace He knows is best, but He'll give you lots of good instruction along the way that can make things so much smoother, happier, more pleasant and fulfilling, and give you wonderful, deep bonds of love and intimacy and understanding with your significant other.

Family Planning?

The issue:
10. (Mama:) Some couples feel like they have the right to be in complete control of their lives-–they want to have just one child, or maybe two at the very most. It's the "family planning" attitude, because they don't have the faith to "trust the Lord" and go for the gold, having baby after baby.

God's mind on the matter:
11. (Jesus:) Am I not the creator of the universe? Am I not He Who has created life? Then who are you to say you know better than Me? Many of you who settle for the "family planning" attitude simply lack faith; you've allowed worldly influences and the System's attitude of selfish control of your lives to come in and become your way of thinking. But in so doing you have also disallowed a measure of My ability to bless you fully.
12. If you're praying and seeking Me about your situation, and I've given you permission to use some form of birth control, then you're going for the silver, and that's acceptable to Me and within My will. You might be limiting My blessings in some way, but you have My permission and blessing on your decision. But in order to be going for the silver, you have to be hearing from Me on the matter, which means you will know the way I feel about things, and you won't be spreading a proud, immature, selfish, "I'm in control" attitude around about whatever I've given you permission to do.
13. If you're thinking that you know better than Me and that's why you're not leaving yourself open to having children at the "wrong time‚" then that's not going for the gold or the silver, regardless of what you think, because you're obviously not open enough to Me to hear what I would tell you! Some of you may even be looking down on others for having many children. If you were asking Me, you'd have a much humbler and more supportive attitude toward others who are making great sacrifices to obey Me.
14. When you think you know what you're doing and "have it under control" when it comes to limiting the amount of children you have, you subsequently limit My ability to pour My blessings upon you. You who have chosen to trust Me and are being blessed with large families, or even with small families, with the children arriving in My time and way, are being blessed in ways that you might not see clearly now, but they will become more and more evident in the future.
15. For example, dear parents, think about how your labors and efforts are multiplied as those children start to witness and work for Me. You're eventually doing three, four, or five times as much as you could have done yourself, because your children are helping you do it. No matter what choices your children make in this life, they will eventually return to the fold and My service in the next life, bearing fruit forever.
16. You're being trained in the best possible way in the areas of leadership, people handling, hearing from Me, responsibility, love and sacrifice, dedication‚ obedience, and the list goes on. Your children are making you better disciples, if you're really doing your best to rear them in My nurture and admonition. You're probably spiritually healthier overall than many of your peers, because you're having to sacrifice and give and stay desperate with Me on a daily basis.
17. There are so many benefits that come from raising children. You who choose to limit My will for your life without hearing My mind or leaving yourself open to know My will just don't know what you're missing!
18. I'll say it again: It's one thing to not have the faith for something, but still come to Me as I instructed in the "Go for the Gold" GNs and work out an arrangement with Me. That's perfectly acceptable, and even though you do miss out on some blessings when you put limits on Me, when we work it out together you have My permission and instruction and promises, and you can continue to come back to Me and make sure you remain within the boundaries of My will for you.
19. But when you close yourself off and just decide that something is not for you, without even discussing it with Me, or you decide that you're not ready, or you selfishly want to do other things without having to worry about kids, that's when you really miss out. Because I can't work with that. I do My best‚ I try to lead you and guide you and train you and keep you on the straight and narrow. But I'm so limited in what I can give you and what I can do in your life.
20. If you've made a personal decision that has limited Me and you feel convicted and don't have a peace about it, come back to Me now, right away, and get things sorted out. If you're afraid of what I'll tell you, just tell Me that. Say, "Lord, I want to do what You want, but I'm afraid of what You might ask of me. I believe that You love me and want the best for me, so please give me faith to hear clearly from You and to receive whatever You want to tell me." And I will. I will deal gently with you, My loves. I'll lead you step by step into My highest will for you.
21. So if you've been a little closed off in this area, or afraid to ask Me something because you're sure you could never be happy under certain circumstances, and you're fearful of what I would ask you to do, then stop and take a little time loving Me, remembering My love for you, and then pray for the faith to ask Me with an open heart for whatever I want to say to you along these lines. Whatever I ask of you‚ I will give you the grace and strength for. And before long, you'll feel the blessings of obedience and will be so glad that you took that step and accepted My will for you. (End of message.)

Short-term or Long-term Vision?

The issue:
53. (Mama:) Some women--especially young women--don't want to have children because they don't want to "ruin" their bodies, gain weight during pregnancy, get stretch marks, "ruin" their breasts, miss out on the fun of being footloose and fancy free, etc.

54. (Jesus:) I deliberately set it up so that one of the greatest and most fulfilling joys in life--having a child or children–-is also something you have to pay a price for. You give up sleep, your body changes, your priorities have to change, and you can't just think of yourself and your own needs anymore. There's so much growth and adjustment when you have a baby. But it's also one of the most special things in the world to experience.
55. Making the choice not to have children is one of the major ways selfishness is manifested in the Last Days, and is somewhat related to the prediction that in the Endtime "the love of many would grow cold." Selfishness is becoming a virtue in the world today, and this also touches the area of having children. While it used to be the dream of every young woman to get married and have a big family, now things are very different. Priorities are skewed, and the System is set up to be anti-children, and to make life very difficult for those who do have children–-they either feel belittled because of the way they're depicted and characterized, ostracized because of the anti-family attitudes promoted in the media, or life becomes very difficult as they try to keep up in a world that favors independence and singlehood.
56. On a personal level, you each stand before Me alone. Your choices are your own, and it's between you and Me. Your choices depend on how much you trust Me and how your priorities in life are aligned. It's a very personal decision and faith you have to have, something that you have to get down to business with Me about. You have to dig as deep as you can, exposing every question and attitude and fear to Me, and let Me address each one for you as only I know how.
57. You can't look around you at your peers, especially peers in the world, because it's radical and "alternative" to love children and to want to have children in the world today--it's not the promoted "norm" or "cool" way to live. You have to look to Me, to stand solid on what we've shared together, to stand firm on your faith in Me and My leading in your life.
58. It's easy to live for the moment, for this hour, for this day‚ for this month, for this year. It's easier to focus on what you might stand to lose now rather than what you stand to gain later.
59. It's easy for you young women to think about how your bodies will change, your schedules will change, you won't have as much--or even any--free time … there are so many drawbacks in the immediate future if you decide to have children. But stop for a minute and look at the long term. Think about how your children will grow, the experiences that you'll share with them, the part you will play in helping them become well-rounded beautiful people, who--whether they choose to serve Me in this life or not--will go on to do great things for Me in the future.
60. Think about the souls that will come to Me through your children. Think about the lessons that you'll learn of faith, trust, dedication, unselfishness, and how it will enrich your life in ways you can't even imagine right now. Think about how much your children will love you–-without a doubt, you will be one of their favorite and most needed people, because you're their parent.
61. Think about spending eternity always knowing that you have a bond with your children that will never be broken, a bond of love and friendship and oneness, and you'll be celebrating that love and connection forever! Oh, it's all so far in the future right now, but compare that with a few stretch marks that will pass away when you get your new body, and you'll still have only a tiny idea of how insignificant the sacrifices are compared to the eternal rewards.
62. For many of you women, your fears about what having children will do to your bodies are exaggerated. Some of the most beautiful women in the world have children. Many women are more beautiful after having children than they were before. That's because they end up with a special shine, a special glow, and a new form and depth of beauty that they didn't have before, not to mention a wellspring of spiritual riches and rewards that comes with the sacrifices of pregnancy and motherhood.
63. Your body might not be as "picture perfect" after having children as it was before--your breasts might not be as perky, you might have a few stretch marks and/or varicose veins, and you might gain some weight--but there's more to being beautiful and sexy than having a flawless body. If you eat right, exercise right, sleep right, live right, love Me right, and take good care of yourself in every way–-physically and spiritually--you will be more beautiful inside and outside after having a child.
64. After pregnancy I sometimes even throw in extra little physical blessings like a more defined face, thicker and healthier hair, clearer skin, stronger nails, or even the healing of an ailment or physical affliction you battled for years. After having a baby you won't be "perfect," but I promise you will be beautiful.
65. I'd like My young people who've already had children to declare more openly and frequently the way that their children enrich their lives for Me‚ the way their children bring them joy, spice up their lives, make things interesting, and keep them on their toes so they never get bored or settled down. It can be a form of praise time for you young parents, as well as a form of witnessing of the ways I've taken care of you, how I've never let you down, and how you see My hand in your lives as you've moved into the role of parenthood.
66. You who now hold tightly to this selfish desire to preserve your youth and independence won't be young forever. I understand your desire to be independent sometimes and "just have fun." But your youth will fade and you'll long for deeper meaning to your lives, you'll have the desire for fruit that remains‚ and if it's My will for you to have children, then much of that meaning and long-term fruit can be found in raising a family of your own--unique and special children, unequaled‚ never-before-seen kids, filled with wonder and curiosity and joy and unconditional love for you, their parents.
67. If you've found peace, My young women, with bearing babies and sacrificing some of that blush of youth you had when you could sleep all you wanted and had more free time, then share your faith with others! Having children is a huge event in one's life, and you need to support each other, to be there for each other‚ to cheer each other on. You need to praise each other and celebrate each other's victories.
68. When you singles or childless couples have it in your power to do so, you need to give special consideration to the parents you live with. Rather than having the attitude of, "Well‚ you're the ones who decided to produce all those little kids, so you take care of them now, because they're your problem," I want you who don't have children, or whose children are grown up and have flown the nest, to seek Me for ways to be a support and encouragement to young parents.
69. Yes, parents have to be committed to their children; they have to work hard to care for them, and they can't just dump the responsibility on someone else's shoulders while they run off to do "other things." But I hold each one of you accountable--not just the parents, but each disciple of Mine–-for how your attitudes and state of heart and mind is toward children and the combined blessing/responsibility that children are.
70. "Children are an heritage of the Lord, and the fruit of the womb is His reward." It's My reward to you when I give you children, and you should see it as such. Those in the world who look on it otherwise are paying the price for it. The Catholic church is dying out because of their stubborn insistence on their priests being celibate. Italy and Japan and many other nations are dwindling and diminishing because so few couples want children. In like manner, the attitudes of you young people today toward having children will have long-term implications for the future of the Family‚ and will also affect your own future service to Me, usefulness, and happiness. This is not to make you have children "for the good of the Family," but it's just a simple fact that I'm stating. Having children and training them today is preparing for the future.
71. One of the best ways to grow in your discipleship is to learn the deep lessons of sacrificing and maturing that having children teaches you. This is where asking Me for a longer-term vision will be the salvation of many of you--that is, the salvation of your service for Me. It's not that if you never have children you're doomed to have a fruitless existence, but for many of you, if not most of you, I wish to bring you into new realms of service, and those realms can only be entered in the next stage of your growth and lives, the stage where you have children.
72. There's much more that could be said on this topic‚ but I can say tailor-made words to each of you who are battling with this issue personally, and I trust you and I urge you to seek Me for those words. Whether you're single, or have had just one child, or two, or three, if you don't have perfect peace in your heart about your life's decisions, seek Me, for I am the Answer Man and I have answers for each of you. (End of message.)

The Line Between Female Affection and Lesbianism

The issue:
139. (Mama:) In the Charter, male-with-male homosexuality is forbidden, but women-with-women affection and sex is allowed within the guidelines of the Law of Love and the "Sex and Affection Rules." However‚ we have received numerous letters about young women engaging in sex and affection with each other in ways that are hurtful to others and out of the spirit, including sometimes bordering on or becoming a lesbian relationship, manifesting jealousy, emotional feelings, one or both partners wanting to be more with the other woman than with men, etc.
140. There have also been instances of young women seducing teen girls into these scenarios, which sometimes results in Charter infractions regarding sexual contact. Often these teen girls haven't yet fully developed their sexuality, so this contact with other women interferes with their natural growth and experience in these areas.
141. These women-with-women sexual encounters or relationships are often looked on as "cool" by others, and it seems to spread quickly. There is also often a problem when these sexual encounters take place in public places or inappropriate circumstances. These young women justify their actions or refuse shepherding on the grounds that the Charter allows it, and also on the grounds that I have written about it in the past (see ML #3063:93-97, Lifelines 23).
142. This is a topic that I have more counsel from the Lord on, which I hope to get to you in the future. But for now, here's the short, to–the-point answer from our Husband.

God's mind on the matter:
143. (Jesus:) Women-with-women affection is permitted within the boundaries of the Charter. I have granted this leeway from the norm (which is male-with-female sex and affection) for several reasons, and there is nothing wrong with it when it is done in love, humility, and a sweet spirit‚ and within the guidelines of the Law of Love and the Charter.
144. However, I created man and woman to need each other, to be bound in marriage, to create children together. This is My plan and this is the natural way. So when women-with-women interaction crosses the boundaries of simple affection and friendship and becomes more of a binding or preoccupying relationship, or if it smacks of pride, or exclusion of others, or if it hurts others in any way‚ or if it is a bad testimony, these are all signs that it is no longer under the umbrella of permissible and godly "affection," and has started to deviate to the realm that the Enemy would like to bring all good things into--perversion, distortion, and rebellion against My humble‚ loving, simple, giving ways.
145. So those are some criteria you can judge by. If women of consenting age want to occasionally have some affection between themselves and they do it in a humble, loving, giving way, according to the boundaries of the Law of Love and the Charter; if they continue to desire and have loving sexual interaction with men; if they are not exclusive or hurtful toward others; if they carry a spirit of humility and openness to counsel and shepherding, these are all good signs, and there is nothing wrong with womanly affection.
146. However, if the negative fruits or symptoms I mentioned above start to manifest themselves‚ then the women involved are no longer under the rules I have laid down, and the situation has become something which I do not allow, I cannot bless, and which I expect the shepherds and those responsible to help correct before it stumbles others and becomes a hindrance to the work and a point of spiritual weakening for the Home and team members.
147. Lesbianism, in which women are attracted to relationships and sex exclusively with other women, is not permitted in the Family. It's a distortion of My natural ways, it's a bad testimony, and it carries with it spirits of perversion and disobedience and rebellion, which will weaken the person who is being influenced by them, and eventually will weaken the Home. By their fruits, you will know them.
148. (Jesus:) Lesbian relationships are forbidden according to the Charter, because such relationships do not bear good fruit. They are unnatural, ungodly, and I do not approve of them. A lesbian relationship can hurt the unity of the Home, it can hurt the men who are excluded, it can hurt the children who are observers, and most importantly, it can hurt and weaken the spiritual lives of the women involved, as well as those affected by their relationship.
149. Lesbian relationships promote exclusion of others (especially men), worldliness, independence‚ ungodly attitudes (especially toward men), and can invite perversions and other familiar spirits. When something is not My will--and lesbian relationships are not-–I cannot bless them. They hurt others, they hurt the work, and they hurt the spirits of those involved.
150. I do, however, allow women-with-women affection and sex within the boundaries of the Charter and the Law of Love. If it doesn't hurt anyone‚ if it's godly, if it's done in My Spirit of love and humility, if it bears good fruit, if the parties involved hear from Me specifically in prophecy and remain open to shepherding, and if it's not contravening the Charter or the Word, then it is within the allowance of My will. I do not promote it‚ but neither do I condemn it. I do not look down on those who do, nor do I disapprove of those who don't.
151. I have given My brides the freedom to operate within the realm of My Spirit, but at the same time I expect extreme prayerfulness, love, and wisdom‚ as well as openness to shepherding and counsel, when partaking of such liberties. And if it's not your cup of tea, don't look down on others who I allow to participate in it within the bounds of My Spirit. (End of message.)

In summary:
152. (Mama:) Women-with-women affection is permitted in the Charter, but lesbian relationships are not. The criterion for judging such scenarios is very basic: By their fruits you will know them. Those who wish to partake of such liberties within the boundaries of the Charter and the Word are responsible to be prayerful, humble, loving, wise‚ and open to shepherding, so that the interactions are kept within the guidelines of the Lord's Spirit. They're also responsible to keep any sexual affection within the boundaries of the Charter by keeping it private and away from any public areas of the Home.

Nudity … To Be or Not to Be?

The issue:
90. (Mama:) A lot of young people seem to be kind of turned off to any public or semi-public nudity, like an FGA leaving the bathroom door open while they're undressing, or walking around the house topless or naked. It's especially criticized if the person doesn't have the "perfect body," but it can also be looked down on if SGAs do it. Also, in some countries where we have to be more conservative in our witness or presentation, some people have adopted that conservatism around the house and in their private lives, and that could also contribute to the mindset of looking down on nudity, or being bothered or offended by it.

God's mind on the matter:
91. (Dad:) Whether or not to be nude and comfortable without any clothes on is very much a matter of upbringing and personal preference in many cases. You need to be wise and prayerful, and of course you need to become one with the country in which you live, and not do anything that would give cause for offense or that would jeopardize your testimony as missionaries.
92. But there is the other side to the coin too, going back to the original fall of man in the Garden of Eden, where the first thing that the Serpent got them to do was cover up. They were ashamed of their nakedness. God had made them naked, and they loved it and enjoyed it until they disobeyed and allowed sin to enter their lives. Go back and read some of the early Letters like "Come on, Ma, Burn Your Bra," or "The Drugstore," or "Revolutionary Women," and you'll see that having hang-ups about nudity is linked with some bigger topics like freedom of the spirit, humility, being willing to be naked and stripped bare in the spirit, being the "New Church."
93. Now, all of you who don't particularly care to walk around naked don't need to worry--we're not going to become a nudist colony or anything of the sort! But there's something to be said for not being ashamed of being naked, not having big hang-ups about your body and always covering up, and certainly not criticizing others who are more comfortable with the concept.
94. I'm not saying that the less you wear, the more spiritual you are. In fact, some of you should be willing to wear more for the sake of your testimony, when it's inappropriate and a mark against you to be running around with too little on. But if you have a hang-up about nudity, if you've gotten overly conservative, or if you criticize others who don't mind being nude or aren't particularly concerned about it, when appropriate, maybe you should reread some of those older Letters and see if maybe your thinking has become a little influenced by the mindsets of the world, or churchy attitudes about nudity and freedom and sex, or even just your own inborn pride and inhibitions.
95. Some of you have actually taken on ungodly attitudes of extreme conservatism, to where it's quenched your fire and freedom, and you have become like a church person that looks down on all forms of sexy expression or anything that has to do with the body.
96. This can be one of the occupational hazards for you who live on conservative fields, where, because of the need to be toned down and conservative while out ministering to the lost, it can bleed over into your home life to an extreme. Some of you have gotten a little churchy and bound up‚ not free in the spirit as the Lord created you to be. While it is extremely important that around the general public and your friends and contacts you make sure to not give any offense, it is also important that when just around other Family members, you can shed those constraints and still live like the wild gypsy children that is your heritage.
97. There is nothing wrong with nudity, with your bodies, with sex, or with anything that God has made and told you is fine to enjoy. Any attitude that contradicts those values is of the System, and comes from the Devil. I'm not saying it's always appropriate to show your freedom on the outside. But it's important to keep things straight in your mind and heart and not lose touch with the humility and freedom of the spirit, even if you can never show it on the outside.
98. Sometimes being naked and doing something sexy around others, when appropriate and within the proper guidelines, can be very good for you. It humbles you and can draw you closer to others. It can strip away your fronts and images and can loosen you up a little‚ and some of you could really use that. So although no one is requiring you to do those things, to wear sexy clothes or be naked from time to time‚ stop and check your heart and see how your attitudes fare when lined up beside the Lord's Word on the topic.
99. This of course is not a license to "use liberty as an occasion unto the flesh." This isn't telling you to have nudist camps and a total free-for-all; this is merely a check to make sure that you're not losing your radical fire and letting pride squelch the freedom that God has given us. Check your heart and see if your attitudes and mindset can be brought back more into line with how the Lord looks at these things, and be more accepting of others and their bodies and their choices. And if you're a real nude-freak yourself‚ check and see whether you're acting in love, or whether your choices are making it difficult for others. If you each consider the others on this issue and ask the Lord what is the appropriate thing to do, what the humble reaction is in each situation, you will find a healthy balance. (End of message.)


100. (Important note:) In addressing this topic, we're not encouraging any kind of inappropriate sexual behavior, nor does nudity necessarily equal a sexual atmosphere. There are two distinctly different aspects of this counsel: One is Dad's observation that some of you have gotten a little too conservative, and it might do you good to do something a little bit sexy. That counsel is, of course, only to be applied in an age-appropriate setting.
101. The second aspect of that counsel has to do with the overly conservative and unhealthy attitudes toward nudity in general, which has nothing to do with sex or a sexual atmosphere. Many of our children are growing up with churchy and unhealthy attitudes toward their bodies because we've been so overly cautious about not letting them witness any nudity whatsoever. That's not healthy for them, and it doesn't create a godly, casual‚ natural attitude in our Homes toward nudity. So we're talking about being more natural and comfortable with the bodies the Lord has given us, and imparting that same healthy attitude to our children. Many families from all walks of life have found that this more casual attitude toward nudity is much healthier for them and their children. Many beaches in Europe and other parts of the world are topless or nude beaches, and you find whole families bathing there together. It's perfectly natural and accepted.
102. However, even in the realm of social nudity (as in completely nonsexual), due to the world climate of today and the fact that there are evil, mentally sick people out there who do have problems, we must be careful not to give any appearance of evil that would jeopardize our communal lifestyle. Keeping this in mind, please be wise and act appropriately, especially any time when there are children or teens around, as that could be misconstrued in some places. Ask the Lord for wisdom in applying this counsel, and continue to claim the keys for security and protection for our children and Homes, and pray also that we will impart to our children the revolutionary, dropped-out heritage that is theirs, and that it won't be lost in our need to change some things to conform to society. Pray for a wise balance!

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from passion
Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 16:09

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Oh my god!!!!!

What the fuck is wrong with people still in TF? I was in tears after reading this. How could anyone live like that any more? Making people feel guilty for not having more kids, and for not sharing thier partners. I thank god every day that I am out of TF's clutches and away from their hold on my life.
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Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 17:26

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
"The particular issue I'm going to talk about is what sometimes comes up when there's practical counsel given in prophecy--messages having to do with things like raising your children, shepherding your teens […]. You also know that while there are kids in WS units and a few teens, there probably aren't as many per adult as there are in your Home, and the situation is probably a little different. 4. So the Enemy comes in--yes, it's the Enemy, folks--and tells you, "The person who received this message has no clue what it's really like, therefore this isn't really accurate or possible or doable." Sometimes there's also a feeling of, "Mama and Peter don't really understand either. When was the last time they went fundraising? And their kids grew up a long time ago, didn't they?"
Do these WS people who are delivering the instructions on how to raise your kids disclose their track record before you decide whether to obey them? How many of their kids have wanted to follow in their footsteps? How do their offspring feel about them today? Any dead, in jail, addicted to substances, depressed, suicidal, struggling?
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from xhrisl
Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 01:33

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
On going for the gold: ‘ We want you to have more children---it is the only way for us to increase our ranks and to assure your complete dependence---ummm, commitment to the cause’. Let’s face it the ‘going for the gold revolution’ is about as patriarchal a document as TF ever produced. What better way to assure the utter dependence to their lifestyle than the unmitigated proliferation of children? Having failed to secure the continued membership of the second generation by such means as depravation of education and physical and emotional coercion and abuse---TF is now attempting to further enslave and subjugate their remaining youth by tying them down with children.
As a parasitic social organization TF is once again ‘falling back’ on a strategy that at one point in the movements history seemed to work for them, namely seeking to increase their labor pool through a population increase---in such manner they hope to boost membership status and insure discipleship ties. This proposed strategy will also bring about a whole new generation of ‘little people’ capable of doing the chores and serving as sexual objects capable of unwillingly fulfilling the sexual needs of their elders as mandated by the ‘law of love’.
Female Affection and Lesbianism: It’s ok to like women just don’t profess or express an exclusive desire for a female orientated sexuality. If such were to happen the drop in male membership (which comprises the majority of financially earning---aka scamming adults) would fall off so significantly that financial contributions to WS would dry up and force TF leadership into financial ruin (since an entire population of pregnant undereducated cult members would have a difficult time raising money). That being said, ‘ Are You Strong Enough to Live the Law of Love?’ amounts to little more than a plea on the behalf of TF leadership to use sexual coercion as a means of eliciting the membership retention of a selection of males either too ugly and dumb to find suitable sexual partners in the society at large, or those whose proclivities center around prepubescent girls----thank god they got rid of all the sodomities. Except of course those closet cases that are fully living ‘the loving Jesus revolution’ . Which, is in itself the closest Zerby could come to condoning same-sex male sexual desire and attraction---without being in contradiction to the homophobic attitudes of Berg who nonetheless in typical chauvinist fashion condoned same-sex female attraction---so long as it made provision for the inclusion of a penis.
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from King Peter
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 19:56

“These women-with-women sexual encounters or relationships are often looked on as "cool" by others” Uh, hell yeah!!?? As long as your not in the picture, queen of sag. I mean really, who but some FGA woman is going to have a problem with wild lesbian sex? I sure wouldn’t (and Im a guy last I looked) Just save a seat for me!!! Damn I miss family parties!
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from crapamonie
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 12:08

BLIMEY!! I've just been on the shitter and as I was inspescting my humble offering I recieved, a VISION, straight from the toilets mouth...
I saw this crumpled, blind old bag behind bars, crying and prostrating herself over the bed begging for "keys and cock"...."Up the pills Doc, Zerby's gonna be there a long time and you don't want her upseting the other patients"
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Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:39

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Theres also something to be said about keeping your sagging tits and arse's out of everyones face! The younger generation Don't IMO, want to shack up with the older one, get it through your thick heads.

"You don't want to appear to jepordize and cause offence.."

Start out by not jepordizing and causing your own children offence, yet again you only care about your public image!!!

"If you don't have the faith yourself, don't start looking down on others who do so in "the spirit"..."

So this means what? Don't stop others from abusing kids because what they are doing is in the spirit? And how do you distinguish abuse done in the spirit and that which is not???
Ha, you sanctioned lesbianism, so now that people have got wise they are turning it back on you and oh your poor men are excluded. Frankly didums.

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from Haunted
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 06:56


Ohhhhhhh, so it was Baal "infiltrating my mind" then was it? Funny, I seem to recall it being a perving old uncle infiltrating (insert any appropriate bodily area frequented by said pervy uncle) me at the time! Silly old me! You see, kids DO remember the dardest things!!!

Thank you so much Jesus for clearing that one up for me - No more therapy needed for me thanks, I'm all set!!
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from Baxter
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 06:39

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Did Zerby have a sex-change at some point?
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from OMG
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:23

Disgusting to talk about people not being sexy enough. I have a very open attitude to sex, I have been to such a beach, shock horror!!!
BUT TF is full of perves!(unless you have rounded them up and handed them over to us, I mean the authorities) maybe your kids are trying to stop UNWANTED ATTENTION.
In a normal family, yes, kids bath with their parents to a certain age and walk around to and from the bathroom naked or in pants, BUT YOU CAN't BE TRUSTED to keep your dirty hands(and much more) to yourselves. This is yet another bid to facilitate sexual abuse of your children.
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from To Zerby
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:06

Keep'em coming, you crazy person.!! You are banging the nails in your own coffin, with this see-through brainless piece of shit writing.
Also why is it that you only had 2 children? Were you a bit frigid? infertile? Maybe thou don't practise what you preach;using contraseptive is a no- no remember? Your free ride to power was a pervert, a rapist, a manipulator, a lover of self-praise and adoration. Once again WHAT HE SAID CAUSED PAIN and HURT FOR ALL YOUR SUPPOSEDLY LOVED AND SPECIAL CHILDREN.
Stop with all this double-speak. but you won't because you want everyone to be ignorant, scared and confused, else you would hold no power.
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from smashingrrl
Monday, October 18, 2004 - 01:06

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Wait, so if I rejoined the family I could still fuck another woman as long as I didn't give a shit about her? That's awesome! My ex would have love that. Does that mean that today they wouldn't try to excorsize that aweful demon of lesbianism from me. Damn, now I've forgotten his name...seems like I should remember my own demon's name. Not everyone is special enough to get their very own demon. I think it was Zlnbunsmpderon, I remember he sounded Croation. I should really stop visiting this site. I still pisses me off and opens old wounds.
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from steam
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 19:47

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

It's great to have this summary:

In summary:
162. (Mama:) The beautiful building of the Law of Love is a masterpiece in the Lord's eyes. Dad did a great job! His only mistake was not setting clearer guidelines and rules for those who would misuse the liberty the Lord had given us. Strengthen your faith! Don't leave yourself open to such senseless attacks on your foundation and the truth the Lord has given us!

Boy I guess all of his pedophile acts and admonitions weren't mistakes? He specificaly advocated adult with minor sex (see the many direct quotes printed in the BI court judgement) and if his mistake wasn't setting even clearer rules then, (since his quotes were already very clear in advocating pedophilea) in essence they are saying his mistake was not actually making it a rule you had to participate in pedophile activities in order to live God's wonderful law of love. This is a major reversal of what they had to say to cover up their past. But it was a sort of sneaky way that people wouldn't automaticaly jump to that conclusion, and they could keep up their facade.

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from Ruthie
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 19:00

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
I have a sister that's still in TF. Anyway, every time I talk to her (which is somewhat rare now), I try to make some sort of (negative) comment about TF. Last time, I asked her about when she plans to start on her ten children. I was a little surprised at her answer. She said that they were now allowed to use birth control because "the end is coming VERY soon," or something like that. I laughed and said, "Yeah, but they've been saying that forever, back when we were all in TF. Besides, aren't you supposed to trust in God for childbearing- if it is really up to God's will, why didn't everyone just magically stop reproducing when the end time (supposedly now) is coming?" She didn't have an answer for that. Both of us are in Miami, FL so I don't know how it is in other parts of the country or even in higher ranking homes....
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From frmrjoyish
Monday, October 18, 2004, 11:13

And yet they say: "Making the choice not to have children is one of the major ways selfishness is manifested in the Last Days, and is somewhat related to the prediction that in the Endtime "the love of many would grow cold." " Umm which is it ya pervs? To have or not have, that is the question!!!!!!!! lol(reply to this comment
From very angry
Monday, October 18, 2004, 12:19

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(
They'll alienate the 3rd gen just like they did the 2nd. They have learned nothing. The best thing would be for Zerby et al to live out their yrs roting in prison, and see for themselves how badly they got it wrong. Keys?? they won't even have their own front door key!! And hearing all those keys jingling when the cell door opens and closes, well, Oh to be a fly on the wall!
OH and there is a lot of gay sex, so they better get used to it. (reply to this comment
from Young Adult
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 13:53


"...due to the world climate of today and the fact that there are evil, mentally sick people out there who do have problems, we must be careful not to give any appearance of evil that would jeopardize our communal lifestyle."

How about the evil, mentally sick people "in" there?? I guess you still think just because they give up their lives to make money for you they are by definition not sick.

Thanks to that attitude and Family beliefs, I was severely sexually abused growing up in The Family's communal lifestyle.

"Often these teen girls haven't yet fully developed their sexuality, so this contact with other women interferes with their natural growth and experience in these areas."

I sure as hell wish you had cared in 1986 about the interference to our sexuality of grown men screwing 12-year old girls and women doing the same to the young boys.

Friday (Oct. 15) I watched a 20/20 about coaches who abused their young clients. I watched the parents of one girl say how when they suspected their daughter was being abused they went and asked her, and she was so relieved. Even this girl growing up normally was scared to just go tell her parents. And they were not members of a commune where you can be in trouble for not being "sexy" or naked enough.

The mother told her daughter that she had nothing to be afraid of, that they were going to protect her. How I wish I had parents like that.

Is Zerby crazy, or stupid? She starts out saying how it was all individuals' fault if "mistakes were made," then she reprises the old habit of telling people what to do with their bodies. If it has had such bad results before, why all of a sudden now should it work? Do you ever stop and think, Peter and Maria, whether this is actually good for the children?
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from aha
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 13:31

The "new body" bribe. Maybe a contributor to the body issues some of us carry around.
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from disgusted
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 12:22

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

I feel like puking too!! What disgusting, simplistic, idiotic, bizarre crap. Besides the fact that these people defend a pedophile, promote promiscuity and irresponsible “breeding,” etc. etc., the writing sucks!! It’s impossible to read without thinking that whoever wrote it is barely educated.
(reply to this comment)

from roughneck
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 10:36

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
"They sort of have the attitude that Dad was a "dirty old man" and should have controlled himself better." - Oh, nonononononono... having a sexual relationship with your daughters & granddaughter is perfectly *normal*! -to say nothing of fucking every female who lives near you, oh yeah, that's not just normal, that's pure pure pure! (/sarcasm.)

Damn skippy he was and should have! What else would you call a walking penis like Berg? Dirty old man?? - is that it?? That's probably the mildest thing you could say about him.

Zerby, as you're undoubtedly reading this in some form or other, why don't you take a 4 part GN series to explain to me/us why you keep blaming individual family members for misinterpreting the Law of Love when they were doing what "The Word" specifically admonished them to do?

You can't have it both ways: you can't demand unquestioning obedience to your written instructions and then turn around and say that your words were misconstrued when your followers get caught at their misdeeds. There was no misunderstanding! "MO" said to beat, excuse me, "apply the rod to" children who misbehaved. Consequence, we were beaten with everything from belts to 2x4s. He said that "according to your faith", that everything was OK in regards to sex, nothing was forbidden. Consequence: many if not most of us bear the scars from repeated sexual abuse. These include your own son, who was abused for the whole Family to see in that famed publication, the Dito Book. - Which you heartily approved of until you were called to answer for it in court. He said that he wanted all of us "knew disciples" to be god's paperboys, and that we didn't need a high-falutin "system" (read: actual) education for that. Consequence: many of your second generation adults have barely a 6th grade education and are effectively unable to leave the group and make something of themselves outside of your tightly knit social structure.

You like to think of the Family as an army, and as in any army, it's the commanding officer who issues the orders who gets held resposible for the consequences of his orders. Stand up, grow some stones and take some fucking responsibility for what you and your dead prophet told people to do already. Please stop trying to tell us that it was individual disciples who took things too far and abused their liberty. This might have been the case had there been only a few scattered incidents of children being abused (and it was abuse, I thank you not to deny that much), but this is not the case! Everywhere there was a Family home, there was a child being abused in some way. The Family is a top heavy power structure and things are handed down from on high. Stop trying to deny that you weren't just slightly mistaken in a couple things, just come out and say it: we were utterly wrong. Full stop, no qualifications or justifications. Try that for a start, I guarantee it'll do you more good than any 4 part GN series justifying yourself in Jesus's mouth.

(reply to this comment)
Sunday, October 17, 2004, 12:04

Wasn't the "apology" in response to the British court case when TF leaders were forced to recant Berg's teachings to avoid losing the case?(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Monday, October 18, 2004, 02:11

Yes, the judge would have given the child to the grandmother if the apology didn't surface, which it did. At the time I said to the judge that they would only do it for their public image, that they would not, could not, mean it, let alone change for the better. Some of the experts like INFORM testified that these NRM all have teething problems and that it was only a few mistakes that could be rectified.
I spoke to Gill the other day and she said that the child(now 12)plus all his siblings, has attended school and visits her very often and who is able to make up his own mind about things, in essence she won. She has stopped her daughter running away and stopping contact with herself the family and the outside world, education etc...
She has wanted to write a book on the whole experience but was slapped with a silence order bought by TF.(reply to this comment
from Vicky
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 07:47

Excuse me while I puke!!!
(reply to this comment)
from porceleindoll
Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:20

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Hmmm, seems to me we're making a considerable impact on the group if they have to address all these basic and fundamental issues such as sex between couples and married persons, family planning and having more kids than you can take care of, etc...
(reply to this comment)

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