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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Benz
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 18:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is "TF's" propaganda campaign at work.
I've noticed this too with my own younger bro/ sisters who have left. They don't have the same memories, they, mostly have recieved a highschool education (at least on paper).
I will give my parents credit for the fact my younger bros/ sisters have recieved a better education than I did, that they have been given more support when leaving etc. - My parents have changed, to an extent, although it's only because they've had their arms twisted to just provide the basics. Further, their actions now do not excuse or wash away the harm, deprivations, exploitation and abuses that the older SGA's experienced.
We all have a responsibility to try and fight for compensation for those who were misused by "TF", especially if we were there and witnessed any of it. If our parents refuse to help with this, then I believe this shows a clear decision by them to side with and participate with the abusers.
The Family is doing what they always do, their program of re-education. They try and re-invent history, and teach it to those in their care (our younger brothers and sisters), and those they befriend for this purpose (but who don't know any better).
BTW, sex is still used by "TF", to sustain itself. The amount of control the FGA's have over the SGA's (especially in developing countries etc), means that arranged "matchmaking" is done much more subtily these days. - The victim who is matchmade is the kind of person who dare not question whatever "TF" tells them, the kind of person not brave enough to leave "TF", and claim their own life.
(reply to this comment)
| from itsxena2u
Monday, February 16, 2004 - 22:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
I know exactly what you mean. My mother came to visit me this year and she read some of the comments I have made on this website. (She is still in TF) She said that it is ironic that this site be called "movingon" when that is the one thing she says we are NOT doing. She says we are just "dwelling on the past" and that "TF is not the way it used to be."
I have confronted her with several of the articles in the new mailings and all that she says is that "we only take a portion of the GN and blow it way out of proportion." "We interpret the mailings the way we want to, that Mama really did not say such and such". My sister and I have argued with her several times on different issues and she still defends TF to a T! I even showed her the slide show of Tamar's Plagierized art and she says it is perfectly ok for "The Lord to remind someone of something they saw in a movie or in a magazine to best describe or ilustrate prophecy"!! As much as I love my mom, I think this is crazy bullsh....!!! Maybe I should watch a horror movie and then use the scenes to describe what I'm seeing in a "vision" or prophecy about TF. Afterall, it would be just as valid as the ones they get!!
All I can say is that I know how you feel. You probably love your dad to death but can't seem to understand how they can be so deceived and so convinced that everything M & P say is from God. I think they're getting old and therefore can't bear to face the bitter truth that everything they have ever done or believed in is A LIE!! Some older folks in TF would have no where else to go if they didn't have TF. They don't have any retirement funds saved up, don't qualify for Social Security benefits and don't have any material possessions. So they can't possibly give up the only thing that they have. The f..
(reply to this comment)
|  From Benz
Monday, February 16, 2004, 23:46
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Nicely said. I agree, our parents have been living in their tailor made fantasy land for so long they are practically in a form of psychosis/ hypnosis.
Over the years the leaders of “The Family”, those writing the publications have tried to plug up as many holes in their fantasy as they could in an effort to make it full proof.
Our parents, and those who like them who believe this sort of laughable rubble, seem to be the type of people who are shit scared of what happens around them, like war, rape, abuse, etc, and they want someone to tell them how to relate to all of it. – they need a quick fix, like a drug, something to make them relate and understand the world around them.
I think in a way everyone is looking for answers for what happens around us, but my opinion is that those who look for answers in cults like “The Family” are those especially disillusioned and probably scared, therefore desiring the constant company of a “group”, so they don’t feel all alone….pathetic. – Left on their own I doubt many of them would last long, they have no idea what’s even going on in their own heads, it seems.
“The Family” and those like it try to fill that void, the only catch is that they own you for the provision of their tailor-made-fantasy. Think about it, there is no bad thing that could happen which “The Family’s” almost full-proof fantasy cannot explain in some way:
- War? = Sign of the times (time to work harder and sell more tools for Jesus and Zerb scum.
- Rape? = Showing gods love/ sacrificing yourself for the good and honour of jesus, just like the martyrs.
- Arrested for Child abuse? = Persecution by the “Romans”.
- No Money? = You shouldn’t care, because you’re living by faith (just make sure you tithe).
- No Education? = All you should know is in the Bible. – the rest is nonsense by Charles Darwin.
- Sick? = The lord is trying to teach you something, you better get desperate so you can walk on your death bed - you probably don’t have enough faith.
- Sex with Minors? = Well, you shouldn’t do it BECAUSE of all the bad publicity, but we actually agree with it!
- Prostitution? = Sure that’s fine, everything done in love is ok, right. – Just make sure you tithe!!
- Divorce? = He who has forsaken…..shall inherit 100 fold!!!
- Haven’t seen your kids? = He who has forsaken etc etc (such a sacrificial person for refusing to take care of your kids, what living saints, martyrs!!!)
- Kids are attacking the Family? = lets see, what next, oh yes….remember what God told Abraham to do to Isaac??? – Well now I want you to do the same!!!!! – Of course I added this last one, but if they are painted into a corner, this would not surprise me.
It’s time to wake up our parents people, force them to see outside their fantasy, their quick fix is just like a little child’s hiding place, we have to bring them out, force them out (in a manner of speaking) if possible. – Just my opinion.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Monday, February 16, 2004, 19:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
That’s what’s keeping it together. The old folks who’ve wasted too much of their lives to back out now, and a few young people who were successfully brainwashed by TF’s child-rearing tactics.
Surely the great minds that visit this site should be able to come up with some way of discrediting Zerb & co? But then again, if the Tamar thing didn’t do it, I don’t know what will.(reply to this comment) |
| | from cheeks
Monday, February 16, 2004 - 01:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps some of them realise how harsh they were. So in defense of their feeble minds they choose to pretend it never happened. How do you justify to yourself the horrors you have commited in the name of God's will, what kind of people were they hoping to develop by isolating them and controlling every minute of their lives? Were they hoping to break our own will so completely that we would follow along for the rest of our lives like dumb sheep? If so they failed in a big way as it made us stronger and more determined not to be like them.
(reply to this comment)
| from Mydestinyismine
Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 20:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think this comp got a virus...or
(reply to this comment)
| from roughneck
Friday, February 13, 2004 - 18:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Seems The Family defines "bitter" as "has a good recollection of the crap that used to happen every day".
Nice of them to take the position that we all should forget about things just because they have.
(reply to this comment)
| from Nancy
Friday, February 13, 2004 - 16:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Your father, John Carroll, aka Simon, should remember he was participating. He held young boys down while they were beaten with boards. He also beat them!
Read the article I just wrote on forgiveness taken from notes on a new book on the subject. It gives some ideas on how to respond to the "bitterness" charge. It's not necessary to offer forgiveness to an unapologetic abuser, much less one who even denies their abuse. In order to gain forgiveness, meaningful repairs must be made as well as genuine apologies. None present here, hence there is no forgiveness.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From Nancy
Monday, February 16, 2004, 14:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
I knew it would be a matter of moments before you showed your insipid face. Stay the hell out of this, Wolf! This doesn't concern you and I am not talking to you. I am dead serious with the woman. This is not a discussion of opinion or politics or some debate to fill ones free-time. She has made a very serious allegation, and I am asking her to back it up with any shred of evidence. I have never been more serious. I don't consider this to be a light-hearted internet debate. It just happens to be taking place here, at least, for the time being. So, kindly mind your own damn business. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Monday, February 16, 2004, 14:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't even know what Ketamine is, but I'll admit I need a drink! The fact that I am a lawyer is something I have been working on changing for awhile, hence getting the third degree so I can still earn enough to pay off the law school loans without having to practice law.
Yet, I don't think I would be here today if I wasn't so passionate. I would probably still be slaving away in Mexico in some cult. My strong will and attitude got me through some tough times, but not unscathed.
But, again, this is all new, this comment. It is personal and untrue. Just when I was starting to chill out and enjoy this site a bit more, too!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Monday, February 16, 2004, 13:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't actually find any humor in it. In fact, I find it quite serious and even criminal what your parents did. Your mother and father neglected my medical care when I was seriously ill to the point I could have died. I was 15 years old. I was a minor myself. Further, your mother expected me to care her children when I was so sick. I still have to deal with the permanent effects of that illness to this day.
I don't know what you're talking about memories of taking care of you. I never cared for you. I was sent with your parents to help when I was 15, but I never cared for YOU. Further, unlike your parents, I never laid a hand on you, your siblings or any other children who I was expected to care for when I was just a child myself. In fact, Heidi, I fought hard to get away from the cult and your parents and Ado and Kanah and all the rest of them because I wanted to go to school. I was yanked out of school when I was 12 and wanted to go back, but instead I suffered four years in Mexico cooking, cleaning, being abused, both sexually and physically, before I was able to escape.
I think it is YOU who have the distorted memory. I was there when your father beat Samuel Piper with a ping pong paddle for being "foolish". I was there when your mother beat Sebastian with a metal fly-swatter for not sweeping the front steps to her satisfaction. I suffered myself under your mother, was locked in a closet for a week, was made to work in the fields digging rocks without gloves until the skin on my hands came off, was made to scrub pots and pans until my fingers bled by your father for laughing at Timothy's joke and took the blame for your mother's mistakes more than once. I cannot even think about the trip from Guadalajara to Monterrey without feeling like puking because of the terrible memories. I was alone, deathly sick with Hepatitis A, always hungry because there was never any food, eventually barely able to sit up and breath and made to travel with your parents who I didn't even know to watch their children. I was 15. That was my joyous childhood thanks to your mother and father. Your mother and father ran more than one combo for teenagers. They are among some of the most culpable individuals in the Family. I rank them right up there with Daniel's parents. I am only speaking of what I experienced and witnessed first hand. I'm sure there are many more stories which other people could tell, as well.
No, Heidi, I can swear in a court of law, as an officer of the court and member of the bar with a clean conscious that I was serving the purposes of justice, your parents are child abusers and exploiters. If what they did occurred here in the U.S., they would be in jail for their crimes. Those are the facts. The "rebelling against authority" excuse is an old one manufactured by the very abusers themselves to try to excuse their crimes and to somehow blame the victims by claiming they deserved it. No child deserved your parent’s abuse or that of any other Family member. I had relatives here in the U.S. who were trying to get me out of the Family at the time I was under your parents so called "care". Your father was one of the ones who stole and read my family's mail to me so the Family could continue to hide me in order to exploit me. I lost four years of my life in Mexico which took me 12 to make up for, but the scars on my legs, my hands and psychologically will always remain.
I take offense to your statements. I have clean hands in the matter and can rightfully accuse those who have abused and exploited me, knowing I have never done the same to any person, much less a child. I have never been violent. I have never harmed a child. I rarely kept children in the Family, but when I did, I mainly remember standing between a few of them and a crazed Family member wanting to beat them. I openly challenge you to come up with one single incident where I ever laid a hand on a child, much less forced them to work hard labor, locked them in closets, stole their mail, neglected them medically or psychologically abused them. You cannot because there is not one. Rather, there are many involving your parents.
Further, I have rarely been as angry as I am right now, as I have never been falsely accused of any crime. I also am much more tolerant of SGA's and their statements, than I am of FGA's. But, I will tell you like I would any FGA attempting to malign or defame a victim here, much less myself. I have zero tolerance for defamation. I have worked for twelve years to rebuild my life that was taken from me by the Family. I've sacrificed more than a lot. I've worked harder than I could describe here. I have two degrees of higher education and will have a third in August. I am also the mother of a young son. I am a professional. It would take me less than a day to file a lawsuit for defamation. It would take one of the investigators in my firm less than a morning to find a defendant and have them served with process, regardless of where they are in the United States. And I would have it done without a thought if all I have worked so hard for was challenged by anyone in or now out of the cult known as the Family. They stole my life once. They WILL NOT do it again! I am the mother I never had. I am NOT a child abuser! Your parents, Heidi, they were child abusers. I don't know if they still are. I would hope not, but that does not undo the past. It will be there forever.
I apologize for my tone, but you hit on an area in which I have seen time and again used against SGA's to malign and defame them. I think if you sat down and thought for a moment of how you would feel, as a mother of a little boy, if you were accused falsely of abusing or mistreating ANY child, especially by the child of some of the very people who abused you and stole your childhood and held you in a foreign country when all you wanted to do was go to school so you could get into college, then maybe you'd understand how your unfounded comments were received by me.
When I have the time, I’ll post a recent state Supreme Court decision which was just handed down on defamatory remarks made on the internet against a fellow member of my state’s bar. Those comments weren’t even of a criminal nature, which are far worse.
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| | From itsxena2u
Monday, February 16, 2004, 19:51
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I definitely feel that you have a lot of pent up anger with a lot of things that have happened to you. Believe me, I was spanked with belts and paddles until I was 14. The same men that spanked me also molested me. I can thankfully say that my parents never abused me or any other children in TF. Actually my dad was very hesitant to use corporal punishment on us because he was beaten very badly as a child by his ultra conservative, southern Baptist father.
I also admire you for going back to school and earning your degrees and becoming successful in life. You are definitely a very lucky girl. And I'm sure you deserve it because of you persistance and dedication to your studies. However, I feel you might have a small chip on your shoulder. You feel that because you have all this knowledge that you are superior than others and therefore when anyone makes a comment that is not to your liking, you consider it "defamation". I understand that some people may not be as deep or mature and often do make unnessesary comments, but is it really necessary to explode like that? I guess I can't blame you. I got pretty explosive myself when someone made a very "off the wall" comment about my article.
I just have one more question for you. Did you go to law school because it was a carreer path you decided take or because you felt you needed to "become someone or something" in order to boost your self esteem that was taken from you in TF. OR Both? To be honest, I don't think any more or less of you than I would any other single mother working behind a bar or flipping burgers trying to make ends meet. I think what makes us a good person is who we are and not what we are. We all try as hard as we can to better ourselves but that doesn't make us any less of a person just because we are not as fortunate as someone else.
Anyway, I just want to wish you good luck with your career. Hopefully you'll be a million times better than the lawyer I have now. (she's wringing me dry with every fee she can throw at me). I'm getting my divorce and will be representing myself in court. I don't know what field you specialize in but if you have any advice on Family Law that you could give (free of course, HA!) I could sure use it.
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| | From Nancy
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 07:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't consider myself "lucky" in any way. Nothing has come to me because of "luck." Further, I think those who are intimidated by my accomplishments or education are so due to their own insecurities. I have never seen such animosity. In my world, people don't give a damn about others' degrees. They have their own and are secure in their own abilities. Those here who I really admire aren't intimidated, either. There are a few people here with not as much formal education, who I think are much more insightful and intelligent than I will ever be. Those who want to criticize my accomplishments seem to be the ones who have the problem. Those here who are secure in their own knowledge and abilities don't tend to misunderstand why I mentioned my education. I did so in this thread to show that I have worked for A LOT and have A LOT to lose and am not about to allow someone who makes untrue, unfounded, off the cuff statements to jeopardize the life I have made for myself. If you read more into what I said, then that's not my problem.
Further, not that it's really of any consequence, but I went to law school to make a difference because I have a very acute sense of injustice. I hate to see the proverbial "little guy" taken advantage of. I also went to law school to be able to always support myself and my family. Finally, I believe in the law because it is concrete and a tool for administering justice. It works. It works much better than the unending debate and philosophizing of cult members.
As far as my definition of defamation goes, I am confident in my analysis of what does and does not constitute actionable defamation. If that doesn't make sense to a lay person, then I can't help that. That is why I was the one who went through the years of hell of law school and laid out a hundred grand in tuition, so I would know what the hell I'm talking about. If you'd like to do the same and then debate my analysis of the legal concept, then feel free. I know quite a few SGAs who are on their way to law school, and I support them 100%. I hope they will be successful lawyers long after I've quit practicing.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Sir Rantalot
Monday, February 16, 2004, 15:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow, did you hear that(again)? She's got TWO degrees!!! Ave Nancy, thou art perfect in every way.
Yes, you've been wronged and you're lucky that you have flesh and blood culprits to nail all fault on. You've worked hard and feel you have the right to feel victimized, congratulations, you've joined the 1,500,000,000 out there who feel like somehow they got the wrong end of the bargain in life and blame everything form Mcdonald's to TV to their parents for their hardships, and chow Zoloft like because they feel they deserved something better in life. Oh, those fools with their huge, unbalanced egos, you do not deserve anything ultimately other than what you make for yourself in life, all the rest is a bonus. You're one of the lucky few, who actually has someone you can truthfully blame. It does feel good to be a victim doesn't it? It gives you a sense of purpose in this otherwise ridiculus world then there is another 3,000,000,000 who are in situations like the ones described in Hanna_Black's poll, who are in worse conditions and really can't blame anyone but the goddess of Chaos for what they we're given in life. Your hardship in the family was the best thing that could happen to you, think, maybe living an easy life would have made you settle for mediocity...
The blame game never ends, ultimately, there is no one to blame but life, god if you believe in him, chance, chaos, destiny. Think what a powerful and positive your feelings of rage are, it's that rage that got you where you are now, but remember, if you still hate them, they still have power over you, and you don't wnat them to have power over you, do you?(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Monday, February 16, 2004, 15:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
Isn't that the same argument mentioned by Zerby in one of her publications? That there is a lot of evil in the world, so therefore, by default, the Family's wrongs should go unnoticed?
And I think I am far from sitting around doing nothing waiting for injustice to be repaid. When you worked as hard as I have, then feel free to criticize. I would certainly listen to the comments of some of the other people here who went through all I did, and more, and then busted their tail making a better life for themselves. Otherwise, take your metaphysical chaos arguments to the drug-using anarchists who appreciate them.
And to Heidi's comment about rebels against authority, yeah, I'll accept that, when we're talking about the authority of her parents and the rest of the child abusing cult members in the Family. Hell ya I'm a rebel against that. I'm proud that I rebelled. I'm proud that there was never a day I bought their bs. I'm proud that they tried to beat and work me and neglect my health into submission, yet I never broke. I remember lying on a mat in the pool of my aunt and uncle's mansion in 1991, the year I finally got away from those lunatic culties and thinking, "I finally made it. I wonder what those loons are doing now? Probably damn laundry and begging on the streets."(reply to this comment) |
| | From Spat
Monday, February 16, 2004, 14:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Just on a short note to Nancy;
I do understand where you are coming from and your anger at being accused of abuse but the statement” I don't have any good memories of you when you were my care taker" is hardly defamatory and you would not stand a chance of bringing up a lawsuit in a court of law, Perhaps lochnymph does not have fond memories of you that is her personal subjective opinion and she is entitled to it.
I do not contest that her dad was an abuser, maybe he was (I was never abused by him), and if you have a real complain you should pursue it in criminal court. I do think you will find it very difficult if not downright impossible to prove a case of physical or psychological abuse at this point. I mean if not most Catholic Orphanages and boarding schools would be prosecuted. If you were sexually abused you can probably try and prosecute the offender.
But you have no right to threaten a lawsuit for somebody not remembering you as a knight in shining armor. If that was the case I would dare you to attempt and prosecute me for saying "we all have skeletons in our closets and perhaps you were not always the best childcare assistant in the world"
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Monday, February 16, 2004, 14:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
That is true, Spat, especially of an average individual. Yet, in the state in which I reside and a majority of others, licensed professionals enjoy heightened protection against defamation. Just insinuating that a licensed professional has acted immorally, much less committed a crime, is actionable defamation. I'm not saying, either, that I'm going to sue Heidi for what she said. I'm asking her to clarify it.
We were discussing the crime of child abuse. That is the context in which she made her comment, which is much more than making that statement in isolation. Defamation, further, is taken in context. If an average person in the audience of the medium in which the statement was made could take the comment to mean the professional acted immorally or criminally, then that is defamation.
I am personally offended and angry on one hand, especially since this is the kid of two people who treated me horribly and medically negligently. On the other hand, I am making statements regarding the protections afforded me by the law. This woman has brought into question my fitness as a parent and what kind of person I am. I am asking her to state her evidence. If it is just her personally feeling, then she is entitled to it. I, personally, hate her parents. That's my prerogative. She can hate me if she likes. What she cannot do it accuse me of something I never did. I would never hurt a child. I was the victim of her parents, not the other way around. Anyone who has been abused should understand my outrage at her off-handed, unqualified remarks.
And I have not even addressed the issue of her accusing me of having a selective memory and making false statements. I know what I saw and experienced. I do not make accusations of child abuse lightly. I know the legal implications of all I have said. I know that truth is an absolute defense. I was not her mere “rebel against authority”. I was the victim of her parents, as many others were.
Now, if she just wants to say she hates me, then fine. Let her call me all they names she wants. She’s entitled. There is free-speech. She wouldn’t be the first to not like me here. But, that is NOT the same as implying that I mistreated her or any child.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 10:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
"licensed professionals enjoy heightened protection against defamation" Is that really true? It seems a bit unfair to me. Also, I personally think her comments were ambiguous enough to avoid being classified as defamation. You obviously know more about this than I do, which is why I'm asking, not contradicting. Btw, I do think that even IMPLYING that people are imagining things is completely out of line.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 11:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, come now Joe! I was being sarcastic. Aren't you the champion of not getting bent out of shape in discussions? Besides, this is no normal discussion. It's very personal and involves untrue accusations. Cut me some slack here. Can't I be sarcastic? Or are you doing the same thing? Good gracious, you of all people. I've said before that I prefer debating you over some others. You know you're not ignorant. Do you just need some ego massaging today? On any other day, I'd play along, but I am really in a BAD MOOD since yesterday!
You don't have to google anything. Didn't Andy say googling was not such a reliable information source? Okay, here is it. Defamation is a civil tort and it varies from state to state. There are two main types, slander and liable. There is also false light, which doesn't happen to be recognized in my state, but it is in some others. There is also imputing unchastity to a female, also not recognized here, but is in some others. There are also some torts which require that the plaintiff be a celebrity or public figure in whose name and image there is value. Most state laws vary, but there are "general rules" which are followed by a majority of states. In my state, like some others, professions can be defamed under circumstances which wouldn't constitute defamation for a non-professional. It's been awhile, but I think it has to do with the professionals "good will" which is in some respects a property right which is often used to refer to the reputation of a business. Professionals have by definition had to obtain a professional degree and license, often difficult and pricey. Further, the "good will" of the professional, meaning the reputation of the professional in the community is impacted by defamation and can lead to loss of clients and income, again there is the idea of a property right here. Since the professional has invested so much resources in obtaining their status in the community that "good will" should not be taken away by untrue and damaging statements. In essence, it's like stealing because "good will" has value in a court of law and a professional’s career very much depends on it and their reputation.
This is an explanation which I give under tired and stressed out circumstances. You might want to refer to findlaw.com and look for a torts outline. A good torts outline will include a better definition. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 12:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
I like your explanation of the different standards of defamation for licensed professionals. But I disagree with your inclusion of celebrities and public figures. I remember in my Business Law class something about the fact that they are in the public eye means that they have to put up with that kind of stuff, due to freedom of the press or something like that. I think political cartoons are a good example. You can portray Bush or Clinton cheating on his wife or whatever even if such allegations are completely unfounded. Am I right?
But back on topic: can something that's implied or ambiguous be classified as defamation? Could you argue on the grounds that since someone MIGHT interpret it as an accusation, it has an effect on the victim's "good will"? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From lochnymph
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 07:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Att Pat Troneyes, Well thank you "U.Correction"! I think I really learned a leson today. NOT!
I think it is my right to apologize for something I said that came out wrong and not the way I intended. So if you could kindly refrain from telling me how to "act" and "think" that would be great! I have a real chip on my shoulder about that kind of thing!!!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Dani
Wednesday, February 18, 2004, 06:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
What a bitch! It amazing how bratty and ungrateful some people are. They seem to have no idea what happened to the ‘kids’ in TF a few years older than them. They don’t seem to get what it was like of children to have to try and educate and raise other children. There was a book I read a few years ago called ‘Tis by Frankie McCourt which address issues similar to this.
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| | | | | From Dani
Wednesday, February 18, 2004, 15:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
You can say what ever you want. Maybe it easier to blame ‘pimpled faced teenagers’ for the way we were brought up, instead of your parents who should have been responsible of raising you. Since when do adolescents live for taking care of others people’s brats? Not only did they take care of children, they ran the physical side of the homes, renovated dives and it that happened that the main source of income at time came from those ‘pimpled faced teenagers’. I think you’re forgetting the slave labour that was conducted in those kids who were considered to be adults from the age of twelve. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Wednesday, February 18, 2004, 19:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Look, I took care of plenty of kids myself when I was 12-15, and I’m sure many of them think I was a grouch or jerk. Yes, I spanked some of them too. So what if it was forced labor and it was all the parent’s fault? That doesn’t mean those kids have to love me now, or show some kind of inane gratitude. If they want to hate my fucking guts they have every right.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Dani
Thursday, February 19, 2004, 03:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
I’m not saying they have to show insane gratitude. I don’t know Nancy or ‘Lochnymph’ but it just seem that instead of giving Nancy some credit for doing well, and trying to have a decent life, she seemed to be taking out anger on her just to avoid certain issues.
I have friends whose parents have brought their children houses, pay for their education and are always there financially for their children.
People in society have no idea how hard it’s been for all of us leaving to get ourselves sorted. In most cases having to rely on our brother and sisters for support, emotional and financial, when things are difficult.
I’m quite lucky to have decent brothers, sisters and grandparents whom have made the transition a lot easier. I don’t tell people in the UK about my past due to all the media coverage that done here. I’m lucky to have encouragement from my family who understand how hard things have been. Hating our parents is not something I advocate, but at the same time I think we have to be realistic as to what they allowed us to go through. As far as parents go I think they lost the right to be called that and I don’t see why we should pretend they’re nice people, just so we can play ‘Happy Families’.
My point is that you have the right to hate as many people as you like who took care of you. But for someone like Nancy who has done quite well for herself it’s nice to give some support.
One of my siblings, who has done very well, favourite book is ‘Great Expectations’, which deals with the issues of new money. Anyway my point is that I think it’s important to give some people credit for doing well, and not just becoming ‘white trash’ and/or a suicide static. I know quite a lot of people who have to go to night school, worked extremely hard at jobs, and some deal with the fact they have children (mostly born in the cult).
I think it's important to keep things in perspective and be happy for people when they are doing well or trying, instead of taking things out on them that are clearly our parents responsibility. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, February 18, 2004, 11:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think the difference is between liking someone or not liking them, which is everyone's perogative, and saying someone mistreated you, who, in fact, did not. There were plenty of people who beat children in the Family. No one has to put up with that as an adult now. I am all about naming names and exposing child abusers and molestors. Implying someone somehow mistreated you, when they did not, and there are PLENTY of those who did abuse children, including your own parents, to choose from does cross the line. But, I didn't make this comment. So, I'm sure they can speak for themself.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jules
Wednesday, February 18, 2004, 19:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Whatever Alf, we've already had this conversation and you know this is not true. The adults were upset with you because you broke a caravan window. I got in trouble for that at as well for "letting" the boys be too aggressive. For goodness sake, you were preteen boys and needed to do something other than dishes and housework. I'll admit the "endtime" game was very lame, but it was better than yet another viewing of The Robe. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 07:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
I never mistreated you Heidi, in any way, not physically, not emotionally, not mentally. I never yelled at you or was unfair to you. I never laid a hand on you. So, pardon me if I say I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I will even go as far to say that I suspect you are making things up because you feel like you want to defend your parents since I have openly criticized them for their abusive history. Well, you might find, as you get older, that who your parents are is not a reflection on who you are. It is possible for the apple to fall far from the tree. Up until you made your thoughtless comment, I always thought very highly of you despite my knowledge of your parents. The same is true for Daniel. I admire him and respect him. He is one of the most charismatic, driven and thoughtful people I have ever known. He is hard-working, compassionate and devilishly intelligent, despite the fact that is father and mother are some of the scariest people I ever knew.
What we finally have to come to realize is that we are our own people. We do not have to be responsible for our parents’ actions. We are also not responsible for their abuse. My mother and step-father aren't the most respected people in my book. They did a lot of harm, not just to me, but to my siblings and probably others, as well. I don't begrudge my brother from being angry at the abuse he suffered from our mother, despite the fact that I have accepted and forgiven her. He has to lead his own life, and it is not my place to tell him how to do it. I think he's entitled to be angry for the rest of his life if he damn well pleases. I don't judge him. It's not my place. Yet, my sister yelled at me last year for not having more of a relationship with her father who horribly abused me. Again, that's my prerogative. Her father's actions are not her responsibility, neither are they hers to meddle in when it comes to me.
Finally, I have seen more than once younger SGAs voicing their opinions that the abuse us older ones suffered must not have happened because they didn't see it. Well, I don't remember everything that happened when I was five years old, either. I also have good memories of some people like Stephen Piper, who I have learned beat the hell out of some people here. I certainly don't claim it didn't happen or have the nerve to pass judgment on those he abused because I wasn't present and didn't see it. What hurts more than anything is when the younger SGAs, like our own siblings, who we might have protected when they were little take the side of our abusive parents. It is like being victimized all over again. I once broke into a room where my brother was being beaten. He was 11. I was 16. I just went crazy and was screaming. I didn't care what happened to me. I just knew my brother was not going to be beaten and scream in another room while I did nothing. Now, if my brother ever came back and said to me he didn't remember that or worse take the side of his step-father who was doing that, after I put my own self in jeopardy to stop that, I would probably not know how to react. It would certainly be like reliving it all over again, only worse. What I am saying is that it might be a good idea to leave yourself open to the possibility that you don't remember everything your parents or other cult members did or weren't present when they did it and maybe then not make thoughtless comments regarding matters which you know little or nothing, especially such serious matters as abuses suffered by others when they were but children themselves.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mydestinyismine
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 18:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's funny that you mentioned some younger SGAs doubt abuse ever happened before. The teenagers in TF now don't believe abuse ever happened. My 15 yr old sisters told me it's my fault I didn't get an education because she believes everyone can change their surroundings and shouldn't blame the circumstances. I informed her that I wanted to go to school and study but our father refused to pay for anything. I can understand this coming from her now that she gets school books, went to public school, watches movies, has a computer to use, etc... I don't remember what happened to those older then me and neither do the ones younger then me know what happened to me. TF abused mentally, physically and sexually whether we all experienced it or not. I haven't heard much about Steven Piper on this site but would like to know more about what he did. If there's anyone out there wanting to expound on it please do. Nancy, everyone once in awhile you write something very insightful but most of the time you seem too stressed out. Your sunsign isn't cancer is it? I think everyone would respect and appreciate your knowledge more if you didn't try to exalt yourself above everyone else. Your perseverance and getting 2 degrees is commendable and I'm no where near that smart but I think somewhere you lost people skills. I think what Heidi said was totally fine. She's already explained, maybe missed a few details here and there, but I doubt she's a liar or has bad intentions. If you're gonna start talkin law over that then I guess the rest of us had better not voice our honest opinions on this site. (reply to this comment) |
| | From lochnymph
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 10:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, I really do not have enough hate to want and get into this in such detail, but because it seems that my one sentence comment has offended you so much, I'll explain.
My memories of you as a care taker are no big deal! really. Just that you were a grump, and would take it out on us whenever you would get a demerit. BUT.... I am also old enough now to realise that you were only 15 or so, and should not have had to spent your day taking care of kids! so God, no big deal! I have nothing against you. I have moved on about it! please oh please calm down!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 11:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Now, I know you're a liar. The only place there was ever a demerit system was in Gaudalajara, where I never took care of you. I worked at the school there. I left in the morning and came back at night. I was not even around all day. I was selected to go because they thought I had enough schooling already, so I went there to take care of children and work while everyone else stayed at the Combo and had some academics. I only received two demerits while I was there anyway, which were from your father for laughing at Timothy's joke one night. I never really got into any trouble in Guadalajara. That is why they selected me to go to Monterrey with your parents to help open the new combo. That's when the real hell began thanks to your folks! In Monterrey, there wasn't a demerit system, at least not while I was there. Does anyone else remember one? Tim, Daniel, Andy? Further, when I return to the combo after almost dying of hepatitis, I never took care of children. Rebecca took care of you. I specifically made sure I was never selected to work in childcare because Rose oversaw that area, and I had no desire to go near her. Ado sent me a note when they were deciding jobs for everyone and asked if I had any experience in childcare, I wrote "no" and sent it back. That assured me a lovely job in laundry with your mother!
If you don't like detail, then I suggest you not make off-hand remarks, especially untrue ones which reflect on someone's character. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From lochnymph
Tuesday, February 17, 2004, 20:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Now you are starting to piss me off. Am I going to now turn around and sue you for calling me a liar? This is fucking crazy!! I never said you were a child abuser, and if it hurts you so that you were not my fav. nanny, get over it.
I started out feeling bad for you, now I just think you need to get over it.
If what you claim is true, then we are defaming lots of people in our discusions, can they now sue us? I was eight fucking years old!! for gods sake, I dont' know why you were mean, and I no longer give a crap, up untill yesterday I hardly ever thought about you, and from this moment on, I no longer will!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Wednesday, February 18, 2004, 09:55
 (Agree/Disagree?)
You sound like you're still eight years old and throwing a temper tantrum. If you don't like the smoke, Heidi, stay the f*ck out of the kitchen. You should know better than to start something, especially unfounded and untrue, and not expect a response. How old are you? If you want a piece of me, go right ahead implying your false accusations and pretending the world your child abusing parents lived in was Wonderland. Draw me into it, and you're going to get a response. I don't roll over anymore, not for your parents and not for their kid.
By the way, you don't "hurt" me. You actually seem kind of pitiful now. And what you "think" matters about as much to me as the newest delusion Zerby dreams up. It's when you start opening your mouth posting lies that gets my attention.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Spat
Monday, February 16, 2004, 14:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally hear where you are coming from, and I understand that child abuse is on the table in this discussion. She should definitely clarify her accusation. I do understand how you are upset specially in being a mother and in having been abused by her folks I just think that threatening a lawsuit is not the right way to go. I fully believe you in that you would never purposely harm a child and that even if we disagree at times you are a good person. I just think sometimes you are over zealous in your pursuit of the law and make statements I find unnecessary.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From exister
Monday, February 16, 2004, 11:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
I always liked you Heidi, but you need to know the truth about your dad. When I was 14 he and Skinny, Creepy Tim held me down whilst Danielle's Dad Ado beat me with a wooden stick until I was black and blue. That's three grown men teaming up to brutalize a boy half the size of any of them. Any way you cut it that is criminal physical abuse of a child.
A few days later a tall Canadian guy was acting up so that Trio of Terror ganged up on him except this time I saw them go into the room with a length of 2x4.
So yes, your dad participated in physical brutality against children. If I am ever asked about this in any context I will relate what I have told you above.
The sad part is that before he got caught up in the wave of violence that emanated from the HCS he was actually a pretty decent guy. I knew him for years before then and he never projected even a hint of abuse or violence. Looking at the whole picture I don't believe he was predisposed to abuse, but this does not absolve him of the guilt that he bears for holding down teenage boys while they were mercilessly beaten. His current denial of his complicity only exacerbates his culpability.
Remember, I was there! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mydestinyismine
Sunday, February 15, 2004, 20:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
I remember him once telling his wife that she should've left me at the bus station instead of leaving the house empty or some crap like that. Most likely because I wasn't in TF. But I guess TF doesn't understand that Christians are supposed to do unto others, meaning everyone, as you would have them do unto you. I do want to add though that, I don't know what he was like before but compared to most adults in TF (reply to this comment) |
| | from Albatross
Friday, February 13, 2004 - 11:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah..I've noticed this lately. My parents denying that there was ever anything in the letter about having sex with children, Sara Davidito debying that FFing had anything to do with sex, etc. The beautiful thing is that these geniuses wrote down detailed how-tos. They've also had to admit it to a Judge in the UK. It will be so much fun to slap them in the face with the words they've written. I know they are all getting old..but really? Can it be possible that this group-thought they so love, has taken them to the point where they all get Alzheimer's together as well?
(reply to this comment)
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