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from Anthony Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 16:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Even in death, these people won’t leave us alone. I know of another exer-SGA who is about to call it a day, or a life, as it were, his name is... The order of the posts may not all be linear/sequential. Andrew: I had a dream the other night about Ricky (Davidito). It wasn't the whole dream that was about him, and I don't remember the whole dream I just remember that he was in it. It was nice to see him again and he looked real sweet, and also a bit sad, but pleased to see me again (why he would be especially happy to see me I don't know, as I wasn't what you would call a close aquaintance). We didn't really talk much in the dream, in fact I don't recall anything said, but it was sweet just meeting him, and it seemed he was at peace and relieved of the pressures of life. I'm not sure why the Lord would have given me a dream like that except maybe to pray for him. Maybe he was kinda' stuck in limbo and he needed prayer to release him, like Dad talks about in several of his letters like "Where poppies grow", and "The Chinese Cemetary" (that was a real letter wasn't it...or did I just imagine that one ...it's been a while and my memory fades a bit) and others on that subject. Anyways, I just thought I'd share that in case anyone else feels the burden to pray for him and be a conduit of God's love to him and an intercessor thru prayer, I'm sure he'd appreciate it! God bless! Joy Renold: ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord! Since you know your bible so well, supply the reference. As for me, I believe the GNs, which say that Ricky is in Heaven I have brought him to a place in a lower part of Heaven where he will be cleansed, purged, and where he will learn to once again submit willingly to Me in humility and repentance. Ricky is not at peace yet, for the reality of his error is very painful for him. But he will eventually have the peace he seeks. He will be taken through his time of cleansing and full repentance slowly and gently, for there is much that his spirit must be cleansed of. But in time, all will be well with him, and he, too, will eventually help from the spirit world. Ricky is now safe, and My love for him, which has always been there and has always been unconditional, will restore him fully. Gn 1120 paragraph 54, 57 and 75 Since you are not a Family member, youre not expected to believe the GNs, but this settles the argument for me. those stuck in Limbo, are those who are not saved. Ricky was of course, and as the prophecy recieved from the Lord after his death, he is definately in heaven being "rehabilitated" and facing his everlasting shame. Andrew: I sure hope you're right! But before we get all cocky and sure about where He went (as if God OWED him [or anyone] entrance into heaven, just because He happened to once mumble a few words "Jesus come into my heart") let's not forget what God's Word says on the subject: Ezekiel 18:24 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Matthew 19:18 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. So let's not automatically assume anything shall we?! Faith leads us to know the Lord's Love and Forgiveness, and that Jesus even went down to preach to the spirits in "limbo" (for want of a better word) obviously for the purpose of their hopeful repentance, which is why I suggested that we pray for Ricky that he will also repent and that He will be redeemed. As this following verse suggests people can repent of them (but obviously in this case don't): Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. And there seems to be some measure of hope of partial redemption OUTSIDE of the holy city perhaps for those who repent, but yet still are not qualified to enter into the fellowship of the city. Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. And like Paul said about "Prophecy can fail, Tongues can cease", etc, let's not get lost in la-la land and just opt for the "easy way out" of soothing our consciences with a quick prophecy. Someone brought out that the prophecy can also be influenced by the "channel" and what they think and feel. A lot is down to Ricky himself and whether he repents (which by the dream I had I felt he had). And LOVE never fails, so let's not be lazy and leave it all up to the Lord, but let's PRAY, and help uphold him in Spirit! God bless and much love! PS. Joy, if you ever get a chance to brush up on your knowledge of the Bible I'm sure you wouldn't find that it was time wasted...and I mean this in the nicest way! God bless! Love, Jonathan David Graham: for meaning it in the best possible way, you sure sounded condescending. judging by your post, it seems you disagree with the idea of Eternal Salvation, which, as i'm sure you know, is an essential tenet of Family doctrine. if you no longer hold to the Family belief, you can say so without bashing it. i don't think it was appropriate to label Joy's statement "cocky" or compare it to "getting lost in la-la land". since you seem to enjoy Bible research, you might want to check out the Word Basics on the topic of Salvation. here are a few examples of verses under the heading: "6. Eternal salvation: A. You can never lose it, even if you make mistakes & fall" Psalm 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. i think you may find this one particularly poignant: 1 Corinthians 5:5 [... concerning him that hath so done this deed...] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. although Ricky certainly committed a hideous crime, there is no way he could possibly lose the eternal salvation he accepted as a child. certainly, he will be or has been punished, but his salvation is not in question. perhaps his suicide - as sad as it was - was the Lord's way of "delivering" him and preventing him from committing further - perhaps worse - atrocities. Scripture needs to be balanced with Scripture to come to a full understanding of the truth. yes, Paul mentioned that tongues will cease and prophecies fail without love. this should be compared with Peter's statement that: 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: and Pete goes on to discuss prophecy further... it's worth a read, when you get a chance. in short, Andrew, i don't find it cocky or lazy to trust in Jesus that He saved Ricky, as He promised. Ricky already HAD eternal life - there's no question that he will be in Heaven. perhaps he's not "fully" there right now - going through some training and stuff or making retribution for his deeds, but undoubtedly he will be there. this is far from the idea of Limbo, which is reserved for the neither-saved-nor-damned. Ricky is saved. end of story. as for his "happening to once mumble a few words", if you mean to imply that there's a chance he's not "really" saved, i don't think it's your or my place to decide. consider: Romans 14:8,10-12 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Ricky is in the Lord's hands now, and i know he'll be treated fairly and with mercy. that's enough for me. d@vid. Esther Almond Tree: WOW O WOW OWOW, man you make my head spin. I've lost track of what exactly you were trying to prove?? Let me see if I can recap...hmmmmn You believe that we should pray for Ricky... and not assume that he went to heaven... or at least not if we only got a "bandage sized prophecy"(ROTFL). You believe in eternal salvation, so therefore Ricky must have gone to heaven END OF STORY!!!! However, yes, let's please pray for him, I'm sure he could use it. I can't imagine a more bewildering entrance into the afterlife. xxxxxxxxxxxxx --S Andrew: No, I don't disagree with the idea of eternal Salvation, it wouldn't really be Salvation if it wasn't eternal! But like I brought out in the other post, and like Dad has said, we aren't really fully Saved yet, we have the PROMISE of Salvation thru faith in Jesus Christ, which is as good as HAVING it, "Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen" and even when we are sometimes faithless, yet He remaineth Faithful! We still live in a fallen world, where sin and evil is rife, but we know we are saved because we have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth dwelling with us and in us: John 14:17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. And as we get closer to the end and iniquity abounds more and more, things are getting a lot tougher and those who aren't really abiding in the vine tend to fall away (from Jesus that is...not necessarily the Family.....the two are not AUTOMATICALLY synonymous!) and except these days would be shortened there would be no flesh saved, but the Lord is shortening the days for the elects sake. But we have to hold on and be faithful and endure to the end: Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. You posted an interesting Scripture: 1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. The "time" this is refering to is obviously the Coming of the Lord, so if we are "judging NOTHING before the time", we wouldn't judge that Ricky automatically went to heaven any more than we would judge that he didn't! Judging either way is still judging! It's obviously in the Lord's hands as you said, but why not "stand in the gap" for him and pray?! I don't believe that trusting in Jesus is cocky or lazy, (and that's NOT what I said, don't put words in my mouth!) in fact Jesus said, "This is the WORK of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent". But what I guess what this boils down to is: James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. And it takes work to pray and search your heart, and seek the Lord and stir yourself up in the SPIRIT, at least it does for me! It's so much easier to just say, "Oh, don't worry Jesus is doing everything...so I don't have to worry about a thing". Yes, we do cast our burdens upon the Lord, but we also have to be importunate and fighting in prayer and in the Spirit. Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 1 Samuel 12:23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way: You're absolutely right, that it's not your or my place to decide whether or not he's saved, and you'll notice that I never made an assertion either way, I'm just examining scripture to see whether these things be so. (Acts 17:11) I don't see how you can interpret from what I'm saying that I'm "judging my brother or setting at nought my brother" (10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.) when all I've done is post a dream I had encouraging folks to pray FOR him? Can you explain to me how you've come to that suspicion of me (if I interpret your point correctly from the way you introduced that string of scripture). In short it IS (in my opinion) living in la-la land and being cocky to try to dis or shout-down someone else's post suggesting prayer, because we already have our own idea (even if it is based upon a quick bandage-sized prophecy) before fully, like you said, examining all the scritures and balancing scripture with scripture! THAT, I consider to be more condescending than merely the suggestion that one of your "elite special infalible CM members", might want to actually study her Bible upon which her faith is supposed to be based!!! But maybe I'm reading and interpreting this all wrong, and all these scriptures, and the Bible don't really apply to all the "Super-dupers" in the Family, but maybe just to all us poor miserable wretched exmembers whom Jesus doesn't really speak to or thru because He doesn't like us as much!! You're special cases and there's a different set of rules for you lot!!! Is that the size of it? Because to be honest, that's definately the impression and the attitude I get from Joy everytime I read one of her messages!!! Joy, if I misinterpret your intentions or attitude please do feel free to correct it here! God bless! Love Jonathan Chris Maranhao: Why do you end your letter with "love" if there is no love? If you were such a "word abiding" and ever so faithful, meticulus follower of the teaching, as well as a diligent student, then why would you put the manner of speach, and words stated here in this way? Not judging, but rather taking the whole "spirit" of the matter, I do believe you would not be open to her "enlightenment" or any other point that could differ from your's. I don't believe there would be anything wrong to pray for Ricky as he probably does need prayer. Since prayer moves things in the spirit. But, as you said "I don't see how you can interpret from what I'm saying that I'm "judging my brother or setting at nought my brother" But in this next part of your message: before fully, like you said, examining all the scritures and balancing scripture with scripture! THAT, I consider to be more condescending than merely the suggestion that one of your "elite special infalible CM members", might want to actually study her Bible upon which her faith is supposed to be based!!! But maybe I'm reading and interpreting this all wrong, and all these scriptures, and the Bible don't really apply to all the "Super-dupers" in the Family, but maybe just to all us poor miserable wretched exmembers whom Jesus doesn't really speak to or thru because He doesn't like us as much!! You're special cases and there's a different set of rules for you lot!!! Is that the size of it? Because to be honest, that's definately the impression and the attitude I get from Joy everytime I read one of her messages!!! to me, it is all judgemental and a bit selfrighteous. Maybe expressing your point another way might be beneficial to all. I don't think there is anything wrong with your bringing your point out, just the way you did it, might not bring the desired results. And it does come across a bit self-righteous. that's my two cents. AND TALKING ABOUT DISSING, PLEASE DON"T DISS OTHERS OR THE GN's OR PROPHECY FOR THAT MATTER! - In short it IS (in my opinion) living in la-la land and being cocky to try to dis or shout-down someone else's post suggesting prayer, because we already have our own idea (even if it is based upon a quick bandage-sized prophecy) - Bandage-sized prophecy? GBYALL, Michael Marissa: Hi there, I'm a former member and wanted to let you know that I totally agree with you and I do beleive that Ricky's in Heaven as the GN said! I beleive the Word, I beleive in prophecies and if the Lord says that He took him in Heaven then I BELEIVE IT just because the Lord says so!!! GBY! Take care! Marissa Andrew: That's actually TWO verses put together...Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23. I'm glad that that settles it for YOU! And Faith counts it done...sometimes even BEFORE it's been done, knowing that we would pray and do our part the Lord obviously gave this prophecy (if as you say it is a genuine prophecy) and so therefore knowing what would be he (living in the eternal now) saw it as done! But that doesn't mean we don't have to do our part and pray and obey! That's from the Mo-Letters btw! God bless, Love Jonny! Joy Renold: Sorry, pray and obey about what? Esther Almond Tree: When I think about Ricky, I also think about lots of others who died in less than ideal circumstances: Horace Alderman, King Saul, some other ex Family and Family members who have taken their own lives etc. I really believe that in the after life there is a place for all of them where they will be guided and helped. I have to believe that my brother will have been taken somewhere like that. It would be too depressing to think otherwise. The Catholics believe that people who commit suicide are definitely bound for hell, there is no way out, the ultimate sin. They won't bury them in the church yard or any consecrated grave site. While I do believe it's a sin to take your own life, I don't believe that it negates your Salvation. Salvation, being eternal, is not negated by anything. However, the place of honour that we have in the afterlife is definitely affected by how we live and die. --S carol land: Well, Jesus said that a big part of the punishment of people who turned their back on Him & either failed Him or did something very bad, is to go and see the results of their actions or what good could have happened but didn't because they didn't fulfill their mission in life but chose their oun way. I know that the Lord had definate plans for Ricky, but he chose another way. And I know, according to the Word, that he is watching the results in the lives of the Family members he could've helped, could've lifted up, could have been a sample to, could've strengthened in the faith, but didn't. And the ones he affected negatively directly & thru' domino effect with his actions & words while on Earth. Just as the Lord says that those that be wise & turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever, so will the people that had a fair chance & chose to fail God & not do the thing God called them to, will suffer shame for a very long time. Many times after a time of this kind of punishment they ask the Lord if they can help from the Spirit world the people they failed while on Earth, & the Lord grants them this wish, though they will still bare the shame for a long time. Ricky is a little sad in Heaven, because he sees it all clearly now, and heis ashamed before all the Family of what he did while here in those last few years & specially days. But he was happy to see you because in Heaven we're filled with more of the Lord's love & see better the value of each one, so he was happy to see you. Maybe you are one person the Lord wantedhim to have done some good to that he didn't. Thank God that He always wins, though, & He gets His greatest victory out of seeming defeats. He only lets the devil & us do things that He can fit into His greater master plan & turn into greater victory. And, the Lord dries away their tears, loves them more than they could ever wishe to be loved, rewards them for whatever good they did do while on Earth, & they are still His precious children forever. He conforts them & helps them to understand where they went wrong & to make up for it as much as posssible. I think that it's when we see this unconditional love of His for us inspite of our mistakes & sins that we'll wish we had done more for Him, & we'll see more clearly how good we had it. Jonathan, probably you know everything I just said here, because it's all in the Word, but I just felt compeled to write it anyways. If it helps any I'm glad. Love & prayers your friend Carol benjimontes: How can some one be in the "limbo" if they are saved. (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Thursday, October 12, 2006, 02:00 (Agree/Disagree?) That was totally freaky. I really didn't need to read that.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, October 12, 2006, 10:08 (Agree/Disagree?) horace alderman... lolololololol(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, October 12, 2006, 10:30 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/1997-12-04/news/feature_1.html (reply to this comment)

from Big Sister Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 00:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I am puzzling over the term "sacrificial date" that "T." refers to. I have no idea what a sacrificial date is. I have never heard anyone use that term. What is it? And under what circumstances would a woman go on a sacrificial date? (reply to this comment)

From Saturday, November 19, 2005, 00:55 (Agree/Disagree?) "Date" in the Family does not have the connotations it does outside. It is an appointment for "sharing." They do not look well on people who avoid "sharing" with people they are not attracted to. That might be a sacrificial date. This is the notion of female sexuality that I was raised with: http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Ml699-cover.jpg http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Little_Flirty_Fishy-TK-06.jpg http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Little_Flirty_Fishy-TK-07.jpg http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Heavens_Girl-pg70img.jpg http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Ml569-pg10.jpg(reply to this comment)

From HVV Thursday, October 12, 2006, 01:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Ugh. Hadn't seen some of these in years. So fucking repulsive.(reply to this comment)

from Bones Friday, November 18, 2005 - 23:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I am laughing my ass off, between curious pauses, at this brilliant work of satire....Or is it? Hmmmmmm? (reply to this comment)

from Benz Friday, November 18, 2005 - 19:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry for my incredible ignorance Antony but what exactly do your headings A. T. & E. mean? (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Friday, November 18, 2005, 19:51 (Agree/Disagree?) A, T & E are the first initials of those making the comments.(reply to this comment)

From Benz Friday, November 18, 2005, 20:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Ahh, thanks. BTW I like your opening line - from there I suppose the rest speaks for itself. (reply to this comment)

from Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 21:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think the theory "prophecy is conditional on your obedience" is a brilliant invention, as cult leader manipulation schemes go. If you look at the prophecies as far back as "Prophecies of the Great Queen" that didn't work out, to those about poor "Davidito," even some stuff he said with the Heaven's Girl thing, it seems transparent that Berg is simply saying "so long as you toe the line" -- his line of course -- "you will have this glorified status" -- which he would grant the object of the "prophesy," because of course he was in charge. (reply to this comment)