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from Nancy Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 21:02 (Agree/Disagree?) I went looking for this article when I was reminded of it recently. I found it under a search for "bell the cat." It's surreal reading Rick's comments knowing now what he meant with every carefully veiled phrase. It's just so much to take in. I thought, I wonder if my comment will send an email to his old email account stating that someone has made a comment to your article. I wonder what the inbox of his email looked like right after we lost him. I wonder what if anything could have been done to save him. I try not to judge what he did for so many complicated reasons, but I can appreciate the tremendous loss of him. Wherever he is, I wish there was a way to have kept him here. I wish there was a way to know then what we do now. He layed himself down like a sacrificial lamb in the only way his mind knew how. But, I wish there might have been another way for him to get what he needed without his loss. I guess it's futile now, but I still think it's worth thinking about, especially when there may be others who think and feel like him. I don't really have any point to make per se. I was just thinking about him and wondering if anything could have been done differently that might have kept him with us. I respect his right to make his own choices, but his life had so much value beyond what he was able to see. Our family counselor told me today, "The most important thing in life is 'can you work and can you love?'" For some of us like Rick, I think our pain runs so deep that the answer is no, "I cannot work or love with this burden I carry." It makes me so angry with the cult. They and they alone did this damage to Rick and every one of us. They blame "detractors" for leading him astray. But, here he clearly had his own idea and was looking for others to join him. We all know that didn't happen, though. He bore his burden, that the cult inflicted on him, alone, and in the end, he died alone. What a terrible tragedy that all the lies on mycon.com can never erase. (reply to this comment)

from gone Monday, September 27, 2004 - 13:15 (Agree/Disagree?) When I read this article I had so many things come back to my mind I was spinning around in circles. I 'm on a break in between classes at university and through internet searches I found this site. I was born and raised in the family and lived in it untill the age of 18 when I ran away from home and got a job. I really relate to what he ( Ricky) said abput having to lie and come up with stories just to try and get a job and when it came down to it manual labor was one of the only things I could do which eventually drove me to higher education, something I was raised to believe is evil and now I understand why. It is like night and day compared to what we were taught and encourages you to think for yourself and question things which would then lead to doubts. I'am working on a full article which I will post but I just wanted to say that I feel for Ricky and can't imagine the abuse that he was subjected to phyisical as well as emotional which is just as bad as this is something that has long lkasting effect on a person as I have learned. The number one thing I'am upset about is the waste of time and the years I spent getting nowhere in life not just mentally but phyisically. I remember one of the things that made we furious at the family was the stance it took against bodybuilding and fitness, I was never allowed to play sports, things I have now realized are a big -part of who I am and could have well payed for my school and potentially a pro-carreer. I can recall reading the articles of RIcks confession about his interest in body-building a totally natural and in some casses considered a talent and something that can help build a carreer. Sorry you had to deal first hand with this kind of abuse. I hope to be in contact and will continue to work on a paper, which I will try to publish in the university paper. My- story and the story of hundreds of kids just like me who were turned out and used, and when we refused to do their bidding turned out in the cold and forced to come to grips with a world we knew nothing about. Take care man.....Train hard.....( Its the greatest cure for the mind) Dont ever do this but you can reach me @ emmanuel@hawaii.edu (reply to this comment)

from pharmaboy Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:17 (Agree/Disagree?) While Ricky didn't ask for counselling from anyone, I don't think Culinvator's posts are that far off. Sometimes hearing things you don't want to hear can be a much needed reality check. I post rants many times hoping someone will reply with ruthless but constructive criticism, shrinks are so expensive these days. "Don't take yourself so seriously", is perhaps the best advice one can give to a fresh exmember. In TF everything was about spiritual battles and getting ready for the endtime, TF took themselves very seriously as a whole.At least if you don't appreciate a comment, enjoy the humour in it. Irony and laughter are signs of a mature, balanced person, where along the way did we forget to laugh and consider this liberating expression childish and irresponsible? You can and should laugh while breaking someone's nose or while filing your tax report. Even take revenge lightly, revenge is good, it gives you a purpose. Once you've rightly gotten your satisfaction with Zerb and Co. and her evil droids, you'll just have to settle down to day to day survival, and then the only way not to go insane is to laugh , a lot!! Good luck with your quest, may the force be with you! :) (reply to this comment)

from SOS Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 07:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, What relationship did Juan have with Zerby? His name is mentioned may times in the "letters" through the years and his relationship with Kelly as well. Did you ever interact with him? (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 02:02 (Agree/Disagree?) While on the one hand I was trying to get rick out of his shell, I can see now how maybe there is a reason why he prefers not to open a permanent ASK RICK column... must be anoying to be so tied in to the heart of our myths, legends, and lives quizzing constantly without trying to find out who you really are outside of your cult context. (reply to this comment)

from Dr.4_Shure Monday, August 23, 2004 - 03:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, whats the truth about Zerby's eyes...was it always that way or was it something to get us distracted on our knees in order to forget the big picture of what was taking place? (reply to this comment)

from Marc Monday, August 23, 2004 - 00:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, It would be interesting to read a list of all the places Berg and Zerby lived over the years (chronologically) and possibly _why_ these places were chosen. What were the houses or properties like? What kinds of vehicles were owned and driven? Roughly how many people lived at each place? What kind of security was employed to keep the location of the place secret? What about the locations of WS homes over the years? Also, on a somewhat related subject: What names did Zerby use over the years for legal means? Did Steven Kelly use names other than "Cristopher Smith"? When they traveled, did they use fake passports? If so, were they always Australian and the same? What about the names (legal and assumed) of other high-level leadership persons? Are Francis Fisherman, Samuel Perfilio (aka "Matthew"), etc. still high-level leaders? Do you suppose they own any land? If so, where? How much do you think Zerby and Kelly are worth? Roughly how much money do you think they receive (from tithes, gifts, etc.) per annum? Was all their high-level banking done in Switzerland and do they still only use Swiss Francs? It would be interesting to create a profile of sorts of this group's leadership and modus operandi. Finally, to anyone, how many people do you suppose are still in this group (and I know this has been asked before)? (reply to this comment)

from Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 23:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Cultinvator's ramblings must cease. (reply to this comment)

From A different perspective Sunday, August 22, 2004, 14:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Not as long as there is a blue ribbon at the bottom of this page. Just because he has a different opinion, does not mean he must keep silent. If Cultinvator's opinons on this issue (however strongly expressed) are to be removed, then so must the comments made by users telling him to shut up. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Sunday, August 22, 2004, 12:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Nobody’s making you read them. He is the worst moron I’ve seen here in awhile, though.(reply to this comment)

from Question Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 17:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Rick - What type of relationship did Berg have with Peter? (reply to this comment)

From Ricky Saturday, August 21, 2004, 19:41 (Agree/Disagree?) That's a broad question. I think he respected Peter for his leadership and business abilities, and also his physical size. I think he was smart enough to know that Peter really wanted to be in his place, but he accepted and even encouraged the idea that Peter would be his successor along with Mama, as you know. I think as time went on there was more and more friction between Berg and Peter. For one, Berg was getting older and weaker, and very out of touch with the running of the cult. Peter had more and more responsibility, spent more time with my mom, and Berg may have felt that he was trying to take his place a little too soon, although he relied on Peter a lot and was still very thankful for his help and perceived loyalty. I don't think Peter's hand in writing the charter helped their relationship very much either, because in many ways, the charter went against the way Berg ran the cult. I think after reading/skimming through it, Berg tossed it aside and said something like "sounds like a lot of rules to me". Anyway, by that time Berg really didn't seem to care how Mama and Peter wanted to run the cult as he was quite weak, felt sick a lot, and when he wasn't, he was exploring around Europe.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Sunday, August 22, 2004, 08:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Does that explain why we all were issued the damn thing as soon as we had first been given the announcement that Berg was dead? Was it really a way of celebrating that they got him out of the way, a manner of subtle insult to the deceased?(reply to this comment)

From Ricky Sunday, August 22, 2004, 11:01 (Agree/Disagree?) No, it really wasn't like that at all. They really thought that the Charter would fix many if not most of the cult's "problems". Berg being dead or alive had nothing to do with it's timing or implementation.(reply to this comment)

From Sunday, August 22, 2004, 12:39 (Agree/Disagree?) is peter in touch with his real family much, like are his parents still alive, sister's brother's etc do they know hes the king of the cult?? he has a brother in the cult right? (reply to this comment)

From Sunday, August 22, 2004, 12:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Also, what about Zerby and her family? What do they think of her and do they know everything she's done/written in the letters? (reply to this comment)

From A question.. Sunday, August 22, 2004, 11:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Did she see those "problems" as anything she had contributed too? What did she think were "problem's"?(reply to this comment)

from Baxter Friday, August 20, 2004 - 21:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Juice the Bitch, mate! If you can get blood from that stone, bottle it and sell it, and feel no guilt whatsoever in the process. (reply to this comment)

from Phoenixkidd Friday, August 20, 2004 - 10:54 (Agree/Disagree?) This sounds like so many of the ridiculous ventures or "faith trips" that we were forced to go on. So many of the headaches and money & time could have been saved if folks just had more business sense, instead directions had to come from the "Lord" or leaders who were completely devoid of common sense. On the Y2K thang..So many of the predictions on dates were completely built on media hype...when will people in TF wake up and realize that these "predictions" of doom and gloom are completely made up? Maybe they will end up thinking like the Mormons or some stupid denomination does that we are living in the "Millennium"; the thousand year reign of peace and prosperity! Geezus when will people wake up to the fact that they are not one of 144,000 or the chosen people? and that they are just going to get old and die like everyone else does? I just hope they (like my parents) get ahold of their lives and get out of their brainwashed stupor and do something before they get to be retirement age. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 11:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Interesting Point Phonixkid. And even more fascinating that it sounds at first. I just finshed a class on Religion in America, mainly out of interest for getting my head out of the narrow confines of my bubble having lived in my NRM. What similarities have gone on in religions not too much older than my own, also originated in America or at least prospered mostly here, such as the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovahs, etc... And from a prophetic perspective we see that it really didn't matter how many times the prophecies did not come true, showing the inner cohesion of the group and their loyalty in spite of fallacy and embarassment worldwide after having sold all their belongings, sometimes several times in a row. I believe the Witnesses missed their 'comming' 6 times. It brings up an interesting question, especially after the fact that our group also though that california was sinking, and it might one day, but not then and there. Making our founder a false prophet, how come most of the members stayed anyways... cohesive groups are not that easy to break up. The lifestyle seems to have more to say about the group than some of it's dogmas. (reply to this comment)

from Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004 - 01:54 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess shaka, you hit a nerve in me too, and I'm not a complete heartless prick, so I'll clarify my coment before I'm catapulted into the already worsening state of exhile from the exiled exmembers of a counterculture of a culture that was before that one. For the sake of surviving the next party this weekend, I'll say that I don't really think that Rick is a Moma's boy, but I still think he could use being questioned even if only for the sake of contradiction. I don't think it's cool to respect people only because of their place and what they've been through, so I've taken it upon myself to prod and poke at his construct to see how he and you will react. I think that any debate where people can't have a sense of humor and take their views and ideas with some lightness gets toxic very fast, and as an advocate for equality amonst the exmember culture I think it's everyone's responsibilty to keep pompous lables on everyone from becoming an undercult of unquestionable source of truth. I take back that rick is a moma's boy prick and it was unfair for me to judge him as such, even though that's not really what I meant, but I did feel kind of bad after posting it. I am a public person and although those who know me know I'm usually not this much of a pest in real life, I think some criticism is healthy no matter what the issue. I don't think it's out of jealousy for his popular figure, because I wouldn't want to have gone through his restrictive lifestyle, although I suspect some exageration, I could be wrong. Everyone has to exagerate somewhat to make a point and I'm sure he used his adequate language skills of adjectives to illustrate his point well. If anyone ever listens to the Phil Henry show on the radio you'll get my drift. A lot can be learned from popular atitudes from making outlandish claims or contradictions so long as in the end the true intentions are clearly stated. I still think you were a bit up tight though when we spoke and I hope you don't hold it against me if I prod your construct of concepts as I would hope you do so with me Rick. I'm interested in hearing what you have going for you and I hope I haven't interfered too severely with your plan. CI (reply to this comment)

From Banshee Friday, August 20, 2004, 11:16 (Agree/Disagree?) I must be in a strange mood today, because I found it hilarious when I read that you said that you were "an advocate for equality amongst the exmember culture." I just couldn't help wondering: 1. There's inequality? 2. We need advocates for this? 3. When the fuck did we up and get a culture? (Besides that though, I did understand what you were saying here. I guess I just needed a chuckle for the day...:D ) (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:17 (Agree/Disagree?) That's funny, yea who cares about appearing all equal... everyone is in a different place in life, I guess I meant that I dispise hierarchies from my past that are arbitrary and I guess I show that somewhat. Avocates for the most part in this site are selfapointed, lol... that includes me. Culture, well that's hard to define sometimes... I think of it as accumulation of experiences, views, trends, backgrouds, how we socialize and communicate as well as express. Yea, we're a culture too. A lack of a culture would be where there is no distinguishable or definable feature you could call our own, we've got loads.(reply to this comment)

from exister Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:28 (Agree/Disagree?) It's a shame that you got some flak from those naive enough to believe money has some inherent moral aura. For those who are not clued in, money is power. Plain and simple. When you are in an adversarial relationship with another party reducing their bakroll and increasing yours is only one tactic in the ensuing power struggle. To somehow think that there should be some rules of "fair play" when dealing with people who recognize no rules outside their own is simply silly. You need to hit them where it hurts as often as possible. Chivalry be damned. I am glad Ricky took some of their loot, and like he said, in retrospect he should have done more damage. On the bright side The Family has very little intellectual capital to its name. Their only prospect for physical capital is whatever slave labor they can squeeze out of their children before they wisen up. So their only notable resources are whatever money they have and the paranoia that drives them on. The money is finite and they will soon grow too old to keep up with the demands of their paranoia. When their inevitable decline comes the biggest diappointment will be that they never got a fraction of the hell on Earth that they deserve. But when all of their aged, perverse bodies are rotting 6 feet under after having realized with their last gasping breath that they have no soul and there is no afterlife we will at least look upon their paupers graves with some sense of closure. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Sounds like fear oriented politics with no higher ground, ignoring any sense of betterment. Hey I'm the 'stray bullet, illegitimate son of God' just like the rest of this counterculture, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to think that selfcentered ethics are the only way to go. Come on that's a very cold place to live. We are part of the whole, whether we stick our heads in the sand, and yes, there is more to power than starting and closing life, whether metaphorical spirit in terms of continuation of one's will and decisions, or some abstract view of heaven or the afterlife, in theory they're very much alike, one's coded the other is literal.(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, August 21, 2004, 13:56 (Agree/Disagree?) WTF do you mean "this" counterculture? I aint no part of no counterculture. Maybe you're referring to your particular chosen California environment in which case OK.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey, I'm just another guy with his scope of the universe. I resent lables of being some kind of druggy only when my ability as a voice and opinion. Otherwise smoking from time to time really isn't a bother, I'm sure plenty of you do it but don't talk about it because you're scared of not being taken seriously, or when dealing with controversy. On a different note I think being The great thing about this country is that we have liberals and conservatives, and I see the trend in this site, they have a harmonious dance that keeps us from taking ideas to dangerous levels of loosing some kind of coherence, and liberals keep conservatives from thinking they have it all defined and frozen in time. Evolution happens by the second(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, August 21, 2004, 13:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Again, no, plenty of us don't "smoke," plants ot minerals or otherwise. On the other hand, maybe the delay in getting justice has something to do with the smoking that does go on. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Shit, I erased part of a sentence making me look like a total fuckhead, lol! I've got the be the silliest creature in the universe. I meant 'I resent labels of being some kind of drug addict, which I am not, only when my ideas are taken to be undermined because of hitting the pipe from time to time. Come on we're not that up tight to where we don't find some value in conscience altering drugs occasionally. Like I said before, unless you know me personally, which most of the people here don't, you can't fairly say that my ideas are tainted by absence of coherance, and even if you do, it still doesn't rule out the posibility of truth and contribution to beauty to the world or some kind of inovative exploration of original thought. Even crazy Van-Gogh had his contribution to the world of art. Ridiculing and putting down human conscience and spirit based on our limited constructs of what makes a voice invalid is so limiting and it contains serious debates only amongst the status quo and those who fit into the group of 'straight conservatives'. In any case I've got to get back to editing about 1000 pictures I took on my energizing trip up the 1, I loved it! Northern California is breathtaking, all those pipe hitting hippies live in paradise. (reply to this comment)

From roughneck Thursday, August 19, 2004, 15:22 (Agree/Disagree?) On the topic of pauper's graves, anyone know where ole Berg is buried? I'm thinking maybe we could hold a rave on the spot, take turns tapdancing on his grave - or maybe that's where we could leave the porta-johns. :P (reply to this comment)

From Ricky Saturday, August 21, 2004, 00:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, he's buried in a cemetery close to Costa de Caparica in Portugal. The way it works in that cemetery is that after a body has been buried there for 5 years, it is then exhumed and cremated. Then it's put into a small space on a wall with a plaque. There was, of course, no name put on the grave. Berg was travelling under a fake passport. Unfortunately, I never saw it. He gave me the impression once that it was an Australian passport, and, according to it, he was in his 90s. (reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, August 27, 2004, 10:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Interesting, I wonder then if legally, Berg is still 'listed' (if there is such a thing) as living?? Is anyone other then me disturbed by the fact that he travelled under assumed identities? I mean, what kind of low-lifes did he have to associate with in order to obtain fake identity papers???(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, August 21, 2004, 14:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Geezuz, when he could get through borders like that with faked ID, no wonder the terrorists have managed to do so much damage.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Thursday, August 19, 2004, 10:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Glad to see you're gracing us with your ever-brilliant and brainy presence again, exister. Notice I've finally cottoned on to the fact that your nickname is NOT capitalised! ; )(reply to this comment)

from Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 01:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Fucked up religions with false doctrines are always going to be around the whole point is to make it almost impossible for them go get away with the same mistakes again. But it's hard to get them to make new ones all together... As long as there is freedom of religion and freedom for them to live the way they do, they're not going away, I hate to dissapoint you guys who think the family will end tomorrow. Diluted people have gotten away with beliving the world is flat for milleniums and they still have 'flat earth' groups who believe the earth is flat, there is nothing we can do about that. We can make powerful moves to keep them from giving their new generation the hell they've given us, but we need to get over crying sob stories for ourselves... grow up people. Speak specifics or else it's just a bunch of hot air with misguided frustrations. Will is not a thing to be taken lightly... we are the future or our past. Not what we'd anticipated, but I think for the most part we're doing pretty fucking good for what we've been through. My life at least has never been better, I have more control over my life now than I've ever had, and I'm willing to help my fellow friends and exmembers, so long as you're not some twisted psychopath we've got a future. (reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Thursday, August 19, 2004, 17:49 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree with your point to make it impossible for them to pass on their twisted concepts and beliefs to the next generation, and therefore killing the miscomprehension and beliefs at the root in the first generation, which would seem to be the case in the Family. But I disagree about not sharing our 'sob' stories. For one, I think people need to discuss and air out their past and get other perspectives, viewpoints as well as support for it. Another reason we need the stories is to remind us of why we are going after the group, or else it's easy to get caught up in your life now and forget that there is a group out there that caused a lot of pain to you, your friends, your siblings. The stories also get the attention and help we may need from the media, from experts, from powerful people who need a reason to assist and aid us. I also don't think the term 'sob' stories is appropriate, in almost all the cases of people writing about their past here, it's not like one person has written articles and articles and just refuses to give it up, but many many people have written once or twice about their past, and probably that's the beginning of healing for them. It could easily look like we are a bunch of complaining whiners who are never going to get over our past life, and a few users have faithfully pointed this out to us, but that's an out-of-perspective point, considering that there are 1,610 registered users on this site, and how many more ex-SGAs that haven't registered? In comparison to the numbers of departing SGAs from the Family, I don't think we have enough 'stories' and could use a lot more. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm tired of some trends, but don't agree that they should be banned. Freedom of speech lame or justified is fine and in a way demand and supply of trends are what make them interesting or anoying. I just like to think that willpower and how we perceive our experiences are equally important as the experiences themselves. "Poor me" did have some aplicable morals in our literature, as much as people abused it to stay away from having to deal with people as individuals in order to focus on communistic goals in the interest of the hierarchy. I guess my whole point was that if we belive that we can't get a job because of our background, just exactly that will happen. I just don't buy that a literate (he pays even more attention to his spelling than I do) guy like Rick is devoid of options in this western hemisphere. I don't think that milking Mom was the main problem. I gave myself a nice head start bonus from my home in the Judas classic without the suicide scene, but although I can't compare myself to him having grown up on completely different levels of the group, I'm a humanist and I think there is just too much fear of incompetence in his story that is selfdefeating. Using 'the Lord's money' for his little ex-grand children sounds like a good idea and I'm sure him and I weren't the only ones to think of how nicely that works when you've got no way to get started in your new life in a corrupt system of oppression. Stealing an inocent person's money is wrong in any culture and I don't agree with the person who said that all money is simply power and no rules aply, in our case although some might argue that we're also in a convenience place to say so. With the obvious stripping of power by those who need to stand on their own two feet, getting a refund from the TRF's contribution seems to have a robinhood feel to it which I think most would agree is a case out of necessity, and obviously wouldn't work too long as soon as one is busted, or ready to leave. I have to dissagree that all crystories are theraputic and helpful, I think it's fine to let it out, but it's equally important to recongnise their meaning and why these problems occur instead of making it a lifestyle, while digging one's own pit. It's also important to ballance out our limitations with our options, because as long as we're alive we usually do have options and to ingore one or the other is just selfdefeating. (reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree that it's important to recognise the meaning in the problems and bad things that happened to you, and to not get caught up in these things to the point where you can't see any further than those problems and continue in a cycle of blaming your present situation on your past. We all have chance for change and chance to make a new life, though it is more difficult for some than others. If I were to say Ricky made a mistake though I would say it was in pulling out of communication with other exmembers and trying to go in alone. I may be wrong in that opinion, but it seems to me that most people recover quicker if they have others to air issues out with. Some don't agree either that Ricky had it any more difficult that a lot of us, and in many ways he didn't. But I think that of all of us, he, Techi and Davida probably suffered the most emotionally (I'm not talking about the physical abuse). With the constant pressure they were probably under to behave and think a certain way as they were the children of the originators and esp. Ricky being expected to take over leadership one day, or at least be the ET prophet with his Mom and martyred in the square of Jerusalem, I think growing up under that sort of pressure on you is damaging. Another thing I think is that we all get over it at different speeds and in different ways. It seems that for you and others in our group that you have been able to be more positive and put your past behind you a lot faster than others. For myself it's been difficult, and every so often another issue comes up that is directly related to my past, and if I weren't able to air it out to someone it would be a lot harder for me to get past it, it's just the way I heal and the pace I do it at. I think, hope, that Ricky and others have come to that point too, and are ready to put their life in perspective and use their past to their advantage. It seems in this article he is ready to do something about it and realises that he can't ignore from where he came. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Wow, I have to say you've earned every thumbs up on that one! See, I think you portrayed a lot of the criticisms as well as praises for Rick that I wanted to, but you used more careful analysing and heart, I think you've done a great job of showing a third party's view on the issue. I couldn't have done it better. I just would hate people on this site to think that I'm just bashing Rick. And I think it's very admirable of Rick to post his story, because it's in the open for others to see and comment on. It's a relief to see how well you've balanced out your perception, I think I failed to add more positivity contradicting a bit my whole purpose of trying to balance it out. Nicely done porcelain doll, for what it's worth! (reply to this comment)

From lucidchick Thursday, August 19, 2004, 19:04 (Agree/Disagree?) I totally agree with you, porceleindoll, about our stories. Even if the people who write the "this site sucks because you're all whiners" articles feel that people should be venting less, let me point out that somebody else's venting won't have the therapeutic effect of venting for me (although it can provide the opportunity for therapeutic identification), in part because each of us has our own particular story and each of us is a unique individual, however much we share a background. In my experience on this site, each of our voices is like a different instrument in the orchestra. We may be playing the same symphony, but the combination of our voices gives depth and texture to the collective story that would not come from a lone fiddle.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Yea, I can see that. People like me and others might get tired of hearing what sounds like the same story, but really it isn't because it comes from a different people. Still stories are also open to criticism, and thinking that subjective experiences should never be tampered with, isn't very helpful if they're not open to some level of skepticism, positive skepticism, just a thought. Kind of like writing a poem or a story, it's never really finshed, like a painting it can be a continuous work in progress and a third party's view should be apreciated. If what the critic says is true, and the writer sees it, they'll acknolege it, if they don't they'll recoil and hide, and maybe see it at a later time, and of course there is always the option that the critic really doesn't know what he/she is talking about, and that can be pointed out, or one can simply take the point to thought and think "That was just really stupid, this person doesn't know what the fuck they're saying", all the above are free options I think. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:45 (Agree/Disagree?) At the same time if someone writes something and doesn't want what they say to be an object of criticism, and they say so, I'd respect that person's right and give myself the right to shut the fuck up and not comment.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Yea, I can see that. People like me and others might get tired of hearing what sounds like the same story, but really it isn't because it comes from a different people. Still stories are also open to criticism, and thinking that subjective experiences should never be tampered with, isn't very helpful if they're not open to some level of skepticism, positive skepticism, just a thought. Kind of like writing a poem or a story, it's never really finshed, like a painting it can be a continuous work in progress and a third party's view should be apreciated. If what the critic says is true, and the writer sees it, they'll acknolege it, if they don't they'll recoil and hide, and maybe see it at a later time, and of course there is always the option that the critic really doesn't know what he/she is talking about, and that can be pointed out, or one can simply take the point to thought and think "That was just really stupid, this person doesn't know what the fuck they're saying", all the above are free options I think. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 02:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Complete Absolution of a group is not impossible either: I think it would require -absolute dysfunction of both the top leaders as well as the sub leader's framework, either by defunding or instant exposion to authorities with concise ties to wrong doing and participation in conspiracy. -Exposing the blowout to all the members, or else all you'll get is a new tying and regenerating by the next ranking set of leaders, and who knows even more of a fucked up situation than it ever was. -Safeguards such as the closing down and methodic confiscation of the financial fundraising tools that are being used to maintain the cult. -International coverage to warn the supporters that supporting such groups means legal penalties for contributing to crime. (even if all the above is done, people still have free will and ways to keep the underground movements going ever more radically and in even more bipolar fundamental zeal to maintain the dogma)(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, August 19, 2004, 19:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Pay close attention children. This is what happens when someone goes to a literature class to learn new words, but never bothers to learn their correct usage. For those of you dazzled and too afraid to question Cultinvator's vocabulary abuses this might help. ab·so·lu·tion 1. The act of absolving or the state of being absolved. 2. The formal remission of sin imparted by a priest, as in the sacrament of penance. Perhaps he meant to say "Dissolution" before he took that massive bong hit and kept typing. dys·func·tion Abnormal or impaired functioning, especially of a bodily system or social group. It could be argued that his usage is correct on this one, but I would venture that the leadership has always been dysfunctional. A better goal is to make them nonfunctional. "Exposion"?!?! Not sure where he got this one but it probably resulted from the explosion of his neurons when he moved from the hash pipe to the crack pipe. So let this be a lesson to all of you my little lambs. Untrained verbiage and the California lifestyle don't mix. Goodnight... (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 02:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Have you ever found the definition to the word ART? If you try you probably will get it from anyone who appreciates it. On a different note... true words often have their meaning, but literature and semantics of the day are just as valid as the year's dictionary. Just a thought... now people are going to think I'm a complete anarchist... well not completely. I just like chance and lack of predictability. (reply to this comment)

From creeeaytive edercaddted lack of predictability Friday, August 27, 2004, 06:22 (Agree/Disagree?) well now, I know I used to make fun of "modern sculpture" back in the day ("that rusty trashcan in the corner is a modern scuplture, as are the week-old pizza boxes strewn across the floor"); I guess in the same vein, your pulling random words out of the dictionary is "creative" and "artistic". Hey, do what you want, but quit trying to talk about how much education is doing for you when it seems you just go to class to say "I'm educated", rather than actually trying to learn something about correct word usage. If your community college teachers you've derided in the past are so dumb and uncreative, can you tell me whether any of them, unlike you, might be saving for retirement, buying a house, or not needing to "choose" an "occupation" like clowning?(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Your corrections are always entertaining and I never cease to learn. Amazing how much actually got through in spite of my impromptu abuse of terms. You exist for the both of us. I have my good days and my high days, also good but a bit muddled.(reply to this comment)

From Fish Friday, August 27, 2004, 09:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Im sorry, but you CLOWN FOR A LIVING????? HAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAGAAAHAAAAAAAAAA... I mean really! All the EX Member guys I know are dealers and the girls are stripers, but at least they only rip of the willing.... I HATE CLOWNS!!!!!(reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, August 27, 2004, 10:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Sweetie, you need to get out more - "All the EX Member guys I know are dealers and the girls are stripers" - wow - how many do you know?? Sure, I know a few who've gone those routes (not that there's anything wrong with that) but the ex-members I know are Technicians, Teachers, Managers, in Marketing, Yoga Instructors, Parents, Artists, Military personnel, etc... etc... etc... I think we should give ourselves a hell of a lot more credit listing all the wonderful things we've accomplished and who we've become and not give the cult more fodder for their stereo-typical "backslider" profile. (reply to this comment)

From Fish Saturday, August 28, 2004, 00:56 (Agree/Disagree?) OK Aunty Haunted (though whatever the hell is haunting you beats me, has Berg been in your pantry again?) First of all, “Sweetie”??? I mean how would you know? Secondly is your idea of “getting out more” socializing exclusively with ex members? I get out plenty, thank you very much. And yes, there is plenty wrong with being a dealer or a striper. Like I said, they are parasitic elements in society, as are CLOWNS! Back to my giving The Cult more fuel for their propaganda, I say that if that’s the fruit they produce a blind man could see that the tree is rotten as well. As you don’t live in Japan you wouldn’t know, but the majority of young ex members in Tokyo DO work in the sleaze business. Believe me I know. Back to “Sweetie”, where did you go to college? Not in Alabama I hope… By the way, where did you live in Japan? Ill bet I know you.(reply to this comment)

From Culti's Dealer Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Darling, your good days are your high days. Not to be all "don't come around any more" on you (you are putting my kids through college right now), but have you thought about what how many brain cells you kill each time you light up? (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Sure, so? I'm glad to say that a lot of negative memories are neatly cleared out of the hard drive. Possibly a few useful ones too... but I'm what they call a college for life kind of guy, so I'm sure there will be plenty of oportunity to masturbate my brain into a nice workout shape agan. Works better than buying into every other goverment myth about all the 'devastation' pot does... you don't know how much I smoke so to you it's nothing more than a wild guess... I have some of the best thinkers in history on my side to prove that pot really isn't the most damaging thing to one's success and general wellbeing. I think that the bits of marijuana found on shakespeare's quarter's where from his gay boyfriend's visit? Who the fuck knows, cares? I stil think kissing is the best way to get a bit of a buzz and let go of a few extra cells on the overflow. Maybe you should tune to Pen and Teller's Bullshit show about marijuana... instead of paying attention the bull from the dealer's competitors, bull law enforcement. (reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, August 27, 2004, 10:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I totally agree on the kissing bit - kissing is a high all on it's own!!!(reply to this comment)

From Culti's Dealer Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Darling, since I sell it to you, I have a pretty good estimate of how much you smoke. Think about this. You have almost never posted on this site when you are not under the influence of something. Perhaps you should focus (okay, admittedly not a good word for a pothead, but bear with me) less on what others "should" do and more on why you need to be intoxicated or stoned to communicate with others from your past online. Just a thought. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Really? Did you pull me over and find out, actually most of my writing is not under chemical influences... although I'm sure some other mood influence must have been present. You're under my influence in writing this coment... And you're not my dealer. Life is my main drug, and I am mostly drug free, have a healthy diet, a steady balanced budget, and a good comunity of friends. Sorry I don't fit your drug junkie profile. Now it's my word against yours... oh, so you know me that well... now you're the one trippin. Maybe you could use a joint? Gosh, chill out bitch!(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:22 (Agree/Disagree?) So your shit don't stink... get a little closer see what roses really smell like smokephobic, neuron sparking fucking prick, I can't believe I'm explaining myself to you. Who the hell are you anyways, do I know your ugly dome?(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know who the fuck this crackhead is, but you have got to do some serious chillin to have so much negative hatred towards me.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't buy, but I like secondhanding once in a while (once every 2 or 3 weeks or so, explaining my sudden burst of enthusiasm for sporadic writting) But now with the semester starting again, talking acting classes should help me brush up on my storytelling and getting off the clouds, give me a break I'm on vacations! lol!(reply to this comment)

from Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 01:48 (Agree/Disagree?) It's good to be back in touch though, don't get me wrong... I think you're a great guy. I just can't let you get away with thinking that low of yourself. You'll probably hate me for the last comment... I hope you don't. I don't want this to seem like some personal hit. I am interested though in helping you if you think there is something I can do to help. Your friend, CI (reply to this comment)

from 1984 Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 16:16 (Agree/Disagree?) so dear JoeH, kike was right after all, poor Ricky got money from mami, and his capitals were to stress the obvious, the facts. not a moral opinion, everyone does what he or she things is the best in order to get money, just stating the fact, time has proved us to be right. best wishes (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:30 (Agree/Disagree?) But once your needs are met, I do believe there is a higher ground to stand on to see what one's place in his or her surroundings should be. I kind of like that guy Maslow's theory.(reply to this comment)

from tdemp Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 13:52 (Agree/Disagree?) man.. I got nothing to lose. like to help in any way possible tdemp55@hotmail.com (reply to this comment)

from juniper Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 23:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, What is Davida doing these days? (reply to this comment)

From Ricky Wednesday, August 18, 2004, 16:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Last I heard she's still a stripper, working at a small club in New York.(reply to this comment)

from anovagrrl Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 07:27 (Agree/Disagree?) What you did was turn the practice of "spoiling Egypt" onto its head. Even if the Family's worst forms of child abuse are no longer doctrine and standard practice, there remains the serious issue of giving Family kids enough education, training, and personal resources to emancipate from the group. Otherwise, young adults are being held hostage by poverty, ignorance & irrational fear. Family loyalists love to point to the desperate choices made by young adults who have left the group as evidence of some moral failure on the part of the individual. Most people know that an individual will use whatever tactics and resources he has at hand in order to escape and survive. You did what you were trained to do from earliest childhood: manipulate & coerce the powers that be. This says more about the adults who raised you than it does about you. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 00:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I like your sense of realism! ;)(reply to this comment)

from DarkAngel Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 05:05 (Agree/Disagree?) RICKY GLAD TO HEAR YOU'RE BACK AND READY FOR SOME ACTION. BEEING IN ANOTHER PART OF THE PLANET CAN'T HELP YOU MUCH ,BUT I DO BELIEVE THE TIMING IS GREAT . AS I BELIEVE IN PRAYER I'LL PRAY FOR YOUR PLANS TO COME TO PASS AND FOR JUSTICE TO BE SERVED. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 01:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I believe in prayer too... Is that possible being agnostic? I guess there is power to 'will projected' that's my simple definition to prayer. I'm sorry to say that my latest experiences with Rick haven't been all that positive. It's been difficult to hold a basic conversation without getting the sarcastic reverse psych defensive lines. I see a person who, correct me if I'm wrong, at this point in time has a very grim outlook on life and is in need of seeing a shrink or getting counseling from a close friend. I see someone projecting his past on those who are around him, his insecurities of an education which really is nothing more than just finding what you want to do and going for it. If you want to go to school why don't you? You say that you feel awkward with people like me who are taking classes... I don't feel superior to you! I've always admired you ever since I've been a kid, and now I'm kind of dissapointed. Don't let academic hoops get you down. It's really not all that hard if you belive in yourself more and stop being a fucking shell all the time. Let yourself be vulnerable from time to time with your friends, I know you have trust issues, but you have to start living your life. Get over this 80s line of cynicism about everything that is not pure critical thinking, maybe you should lay off the martial arts and get in touch with more gentle aspects of your being. Everyone has male and female feature in them and being totally overwhelmed by one or the other is not healthy. Try not taking yourself so seriously. You say you don't care about how other see you but you do about how you see yourself. Maybe you should ask people how you project yourself? I do. I mean if your friends can't tell you a thing or two, how the heck are you going to get a picture of how you come accross? Are you associating more than you need to with family type behaviour? Are you afraid of appearing weak and humble? I know I'm starting to sound like one of them fuckers who've fucked with your head for years, but in this case I'm just the guy next door who's lived on the botom side of the group, on the grass roots, and I think that a lot of the story you're portraying stinks royally. If you don't portray the truth without bashing, all you do is loose credibility. You have to be able to think objectively almost to a point of neurtrality before you can actually use their negative forces against them without getting yourself mixed up in everything. Where you don't know top from bottom. I know because I was just there a couple of years ago and it almost got me in a lot of trouble, legally and psychologically. (then again, don't take everything I say, feel free to rebuttal, I might be projecting my past on you too) I know that's not how you are all the time, but for crying out loud find something you love, find a passion in life, this negativity is going to tear you and others around you appart. The famlily excuse works for the first year or two, but my whole point is get your life straigtened out and then go back and see clearly with less attachment to the issue at hand. This all sounds kind of zen, and I'm not the expert, but I know what I see and hear, and you don't sound too good. Call me anytime... I live a simple life, but I've had to deal with creating my life before I can think clearly to end the negativity I came from, unless you feel revenge is where it's at? An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. I have been known for sticking my foot in my mouth, and saying this online probably makes me more vulnerable than ever. I think truth has it's own power and saying it like you see it is the first step to either stating it like it is, or having a chance to be set right... so either way I'm going to say it, and be at risk of being set right if I'm wrong. From speaking to you Rick I see that you've struggled with identity issues and with social phobias. I've taken my chance at getting a 'refund' from my last home in the group, but I just don't see that thing going on forever as really doing a lot for you. The group has been sleezy, but acting just like them only makes you look more of a sucker. I know you've been wronged, and I can see how they've affected your self confidence, but I think that you have a lot more in you than you think you do, and you've believed too much bull shit about what it would be like to leave. For one, minimum wage fears have gone on in more than just your mind, but there is nothing wrong with starting at the bottom. Maybe you've been pampered a bit as the royal son, being told you've got great things ahead, maybe not and I'm just a diluded smuck, but I'm just speaking from what I've seen, read and heard from you. Do you feel you have to project a certain image or you're not good enough? Have you thought of just starting simple, finding out some character features that you'd like to enhance and accept yourself for being the product of the way you grew up, making the best of certain aspects and letting go of those that get in the way? There are a lot of 'frieks' out there and we're certainly not alone in the odd bunch. Getting a large head start financially only makes you look like a Moma's boy, waiting for a handout. I mean it's your life, but don't you want to feel like you achived more than just destroy something, don't you feel some urge to create something better and let the rotters rot to death? Who are you thinking about, are you really thinking about those trapped in with no way out, or just trying to get even, or get your name in the picture? Now, if you have some good ideas on how to put the group to justice I'm all ears, and I can be your best friend, or if I see that it's just a way to multiply your pain to get some pity, your worst enemy. You can write me now at: writejst@hotmail.com I'm just tired of hearing sob stories about how we're so handycapped, and how we're ruined by our parents. Let's fucking get over that shit already! Anovagirrl had some good points about the current issues, exit options for those who are in the group, that's something to lobby for... that's something we can try to lobby and protest against. There are a lot of fucked up ideas in this world, and those who are born in those groups are most vulnerable, but you know, so are there a lot of fucked up families, neighbourhoods, and countries that can be issues of crying about, but life is not fair. Life sometimes just sucks then you die! But the whole point is to try to make it better for as many as possible. I'm not always the most consistent... Sometimes my writing and poetry is a way out so that I don't have to fucking strangle someone, this is probably the best site to do it in... but seriously speaking we have to get informed about what's really happening, yesterday's news are just not good enough. The group has very few checks and balances of power for those at the top of the hierarchy, what leverage do you think we who are out of the loop have unless we have an insider working closely? I don't know but I think that the first step in trying to change those who've wronged us is to change our attitude first, and get our head screwed on right before we start any half cocked ideas that make us look worse than those who've wronged us? I'm a firm believer in civil disobedience for higher purposes, but not to be dragged down to their scummy level, that only makes us predictable loosers. (reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel Sunday, August 22, 2004, 06:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Culti.I like your style and your litterary acrobatics.This beeing shared I also think that you should save it for people that you want to impress ,As far as Ricky goes I don't think that personally attacking him will help you or him to get anywhere. If you have a beef with Ricky and you think yourself above his education or his ways of doing things then why don't you get down from your white horse and give him a hand ? So far it seems to me that Ricky 's been quite courteous with you ,but you're not letting up and this habit of yours denotes that you're are educated sure ,but not in the main and most important matters of life .You might want to stop your head stuffin for a while and consider what Ricky was trying to get accross concerning your love of education ,after all you're also an open minded person too? Remember knowledge puffs up! Same with your pipe. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 01:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky is actually linguistically more adept at english than I am, and thanks for the acrobatic compliment, however I think you lost the picture altogether of what I was trying to say, and I think that happens sometimes on these type of chat posts. You asume that I'm the one on the highhorse, and that I haven't tried to be ricky's friend... but there is more to the picture than what meets the eye... this in some ways was my attempt of getting a freekin bone out of him after his ignoring my emails phone calls and personal invites when he arrived in the area, but hey I guess there must be something about me that he makes him uneasy, and especially now after I said I'm gay friendly...lol! Well,to each his own, I'm over this already, but I thought I'd reply to your coment since you seem sincere in taking me off my horse. Let us walk.... what the fuck am I saying? (reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel Friday, August 27, 2004, 00:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Alright Culti. I love you too even though I'm not a gay friendly oriente lover.LOL. I guess you've been hurt too. All i'm saying leave your personal Ricky is a bitch comments out of this site and write him some note if you wish. I personally don't want to slow down Ricky on his quest . Anyone that feels that way too is welcome, to stop,hinder ,slow down muma M or Peter littledick... What a thrill to reach the unreachable star... to fight were the braves do not go ... This is also my quest,All the better to Rick and if it helps Rick to feel better about things why not? Then may be he'll take you out for dinner and patch up the problems. When I'll be in your woods lets go for a white horse ride . (reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel Friday, August 27, 2004, 00:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Alright Culti. I love you too even though I'm not a gay friendly oriente lover.LOL. I guess you've been hurt too. All i'm saying leave your personal Ricky is a bitch comments out of this site and write him some note if you wish. I personally don't want to slow down Ricky on his quest . Anyone that feels that way too is welcome, to stop,hinder ,slow down muma M or Peter littledick... What a thrill to reach the unreachable star... to fight were the braves do not go ... This is also my quest,All the better to Rick and if it helps Rick to feel better about things why not? Then may be he'll take you out for dinner and patch up the problems. When I'll be in your woods lets go for a white horse ride . (reply to this comment)

From Ricky Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:40 (Agree/Disagree?) John, By far the thing that I find most disturbing about what you wrote here is how out of touch with reality you appear to be, and how utterly inept you seem to be at understanding others. For awhile I admired you for continuing your schooling because I thought that was important. Unfortunately, though, if you're any indication of the kind of granola-munching/gay/hippie/nudist/flower-child/psycho-babbler that you turn into after years of continuing education, then I guess I certainly did make the right choice in not going! You are, in the words of my hero, Eric Cartman, "a very disturbed little boy".(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 01:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Richard my lionheartedfriend, Being on the left (creative, change, shaking up the status quo) side of a lot of issues is not to be confusedwith going to school, here in cali at least I've seen every up tight prick on one end and every silly hippy on the opposite end, and I've actually learned a lot from both sides. I did say that you could use a shrink so I guess it's only fair that you call me a 'disturbed little boy'. I just hope my disturbances lead to interesting places for more than this little boy. I'm glad you're educating yourself on southpark, they have alot of disturbing but interesting things to say let's just hope we don't end up like dear kenny in the process. I've heard say that if you're young and are not liberal you don't have a heart, and if you're old and don't have some conservative you don't have a brain, but then I hear that when you get really old you switch back to not caring about allthe old shit as you see your life being just a drop in the bucket... like mythologies, hindu dieties, and tales they just keep adding to them based on how things are seen in the day. Anyhow Rick, it would have been cool to see you at the party this weekend. Someone said you wanted to see Mary Dear, but she was at the party, why'd you stay at home?(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Sunday, August 22, 2004, 12:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, not every US college student is as dull as this culti guy … there is something interesting in the whole Californian trip when it’s real, but this guy seems like a wannabe.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Truth should be disturbing, and there is nothing wrong with being a granola eating, gayfriendly, hippyloving, nudist/flower-child psycho fascinated student. I think it's a rest with all that is pure in our background and I'm at peace with it, verses a homophobic, statusquo defending, tightass, cynic who runs away from tolerant views that are harmless, instead of focusing on selfcleaning, purging projected insecurities, and letting go of negativity that is only toxic and antisocial behaviour that leads to Mansolike frieks. Manson actually hated hippies believe it or not, and most flower children are some of the most tolerant people you'll meet. I have no problem with being idealistic, beauty loving and I love you too bro, as gay as that sounds. I just wish you wouldn't take yourself so seriously, I think you'd enjoy a breath or two of fresh air. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:06 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm glad I struck a chord... you made my day. Hopefully your sarcasm will lead to looking up the issues you're so paranoid against to find out how little they really have to do with the serious dangers of the group we grew up in: Ethnocentrism- Gayphobia Racism Pedophilia Hate Exlusive pomp behaviour Stereotype philosophical inbreading abusing the flowerculture to push radical dogmatic views creating a language distortion to associate harmless behaviour with dogma I actually enjoy debating with you, I'm looking forwards to continue talking to you, you are someone I find interesting in spite of the labels you've been give, and I hope that's what you got from me when you first met me at FCF. I know we're getting off a bit on a conflicting start, but conflict is not in itself a bad thing... a crux on the road has as much hope of exploration as it has disoportunity. What the hell do we know anyways... the point is to break out of thinking we know everything... even the familiar has it's unique value to be rediscovered, and I'm going through the faze of exploring with the environment where it all went wrong. I live in Suthern California, and I'm amazed at how distorted beauty can become under control frieks like berg. How control oriented are you... are you scared of playing with unknown territory or does it make you uneasy? I recomend breaking out of cycles... I know it's been liberating for me. But that's your choice altogether. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Friday, August 20, 2004, 23:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Is “exploring the environment” a Californian term for “exploring the weed patch”?(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 00:33 (Agree/Disagree?) No, that grows in one's back yard, fuck needing dealers. Pennies will get you a years supply, at my rate of smoking probably 5 years. But keep up the pot talk, don't bother me one bit.(reply to this comment)

From Ricky Friday, August 20, 2004, 16:22 (Agree/Disagree?) John, I don't really want to "debate" anything with you. I don't care if you agree with me or not. Acting gay and loving everyone is not my thing. I didn't come back here for that. I came to recruit the right people to help me, or find the right people to help.(reply to this comment)

From lotstoforget Thursday, August 19, 2004, 14:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Bravo! I agree 100%! I'm sorry for Ricky and all he went through, but some of it seems self-inflicted. I have a hunch he's not going the right direction with his approach to life. My advise: get busy with your life, friend. Revenge, the way you propose it, sucks big time and cast a shadow on you and your motives and your state of mind. Take all the negative, the revenge, the "getting even", bury it deeeep, forget where you buried it and tailor your life according to your dreams. Try not to make the same mistakes others, especially those that wronged you, made and don't forget - looking at the things you write, you're no picture of innocence yourself. Start somewhere. Probably minimum wage, what's wrong with that, unless you have the prodigy syndrome? Everyone gets his start in that neighborhood, unless you've already paid oodles for an education. That way you start a little higher, but in most cases you've got quite a bit of payback to do, unless you've had a sponsor. Forget the idea that life's just a breeze and that you deserve to have everything handed to you on a silver platter. Sorry, I don't mean to sound self-righteous. I think, though, I got the victory over feeling sorry for myself. Rick, start with that victory and take it step by step from here on out!(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Victory is not a word exclusive to TF trademarks, I'm not sure I know this commentator, but I appreciate some critical thinkers who are not afraid to say what they think. Although both of us probably do have similar feelings to Rick and don't want to make this a personal attack. Free thinking should thrive, and criticizm to trends should be expected in this site. I enjoy going agaist the flow, that's what surfing is all about, it doesn't mean I hate those I'm questioning.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Life is too precious in our power to create to waste time with reverse games of psychic vampires. It's a waste of energy doubled, once the first time, then in it's mimic.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, August 19, 2004, 15:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I missed the part where Ricky asked for your advice. Why don't you keep it and your "hunches" to yourself? Personally I find it incredibly irritating when people jump in with unsolicited "advice" on issues they know absolutely nothing about. Just because you grew up knowing who Ricky was does not mean he owes you or anyone anything. He did not get to choose his parents any more than the rest of us did and personally I don't think he owes anyone an explanation for his decisions. If someone struggles when they leave the group, the Family uses it as a "warning" as to what happens when you "go astray". If someone succeeds, it's because of the "wonderful training". If you manage to get an education, it's "proof" that the group's education is not substandard. If you work minimum wage, it's because you have "no motivation". No matter what happens, the Family will use it against you and who cares what they think anyway? Personally the only opinions I take seriously are from those who are willing to actually do something themselves. People can sit around debating the relative merits of this action or that action all they want, but unless they are willing to get involved, they may as well be talking to themselves. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 22:45 (Agree/Disagree?) I respect your views, and I have my own. I don't know Rick like you do, but I too am a scentient being, and enjoy a separate processor. Looks like we've got a new hierarchy going. I want to get invoved in justice, but not revenge. There is a difference... we've got enough overprized prisons wasting energy for revenge instead of working on fixing the problem instead of the blame. I'm surprised to see how your colors are showing your bias. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know Rick at all. I have never met him. This is so not about me, but I do understand in some small way how when people know your "name" they sometimes expect all these things of you. I was never anyone in the Family and it has been very weird for me to suddenly become someone that many people have all kinds of expectations for. Every single time I say anything on this site about anything someone tells me I have a bias in some way. The reality is that we are all just stumbling along and trying to come to terms with what was done to us. It doesn't matter what our "name" is or if people think they "know" you or not. Whatever you or anyone else wants to get involved in, how about you start it yourself instead of waiting for someone to bring the perfect cause to you? It's so much easier to sit and critique someone else's idea, but any of us could (if we really wanted to and cared enough) do something ourselves. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Having lived and worked in FCF I am in the middle of working with documentary producers and a suporter what used to be the Russian "nuts" home members who is coordinating an effort with me to come up with a concise objective portrayal of the information and I'm also working at loosing the 'bashing' quality in order to portray the facts, negative and positive to get out of the tit for tat game that is so very predictable. But I'm a proponent for justice, and I believe we're all responsible to do something. Just because you don't know what I'm doing doesn't mean that you can Judge me for your perceived inaction. True people are still victims as we speak, but the only worst thing that waiting endlessly is continuing the trend of hate and revenge.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey it all depends on your audience, are you just looking for haters to congregate, or are you looking for the world to see you as a respectable person who can rise the predictable trend of continuing pain back and forth, back and forth, over and over... Ireland and The Brits, Israel and Palestine, etc.... We too have our biases... is it actually possible to see the big picture from time to time? (reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Good for you for speaking out. You are right in that there are many things going on that I have no clue about. If you are taking a stand and speaking out then I salute you. However, unless your producer is Noah Thompson, good luck with the "portraying the facts". From my own experience, you as a contributor usually have no say in how the issues are portrayed. That however does not mean that it is not worth taking the chance to speak your own truth publicly. It's not easy, but it does matter. I beg to differ however regarding revenge. We all move forward in our way and what works for you may not work for others. For me healing is the ultimate goal and that means many things to many people. Perhaps you are willing to forget it all, but your liberalism surely doesn't dictate that everyone should believe what you do? (reply to this comment)

From knows the crackhead too well Friday, August 20, 2004, 07:06 (Agree/Disagree?) hey Rick, don't worry, we could do a number on culti too -- he's actually a pretty nice guy, his social skills are kinda lacking so he can come off a bit rude (I swear though, whether high or not, he has that "Aaron Berg" spaciness we used to see on the B&W videos "rev continues"). Now, on to Jules' "producer" question...I'll give a clue, Culti's email given here is writejst@hotmail.com ,the j for jonathan and the t for Thompson...hey, no shit, it seems like Jonathan has the same last name as producer Noah Thompson...and they even look alike (haven't seen Noah in forever so got no idea if he's balding too) -- maybe they are related. I must say though, from my hazy memories, Noah was pretty intelligent (never had the perpetual pothead persona) and seemed to have been something of a prodigy at the HCS, so I have to wonder if the gene pool didnt distribute fairly between Noah and John (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 11:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for making me feel better, and I am somewhat of an airy personality like Aaron, without the suicidal tendencies... Hope I don't pick them up after exposure to the labels I've been getting here lol. Never thought of it really, I actually really enjoy life in spite of negative aspects to my upbringing and having a stake in the storytelling biz I feel like Ricks story was a bit one sided without using a balance of positive with his negative. For one the Passion of the christ is a clear example of how if a story is not balanced out, even the most detrimental holocaust uses some breaks and shows the perseverance and spirit of fight that comes about from tragedy, and I didn't see that much in Ricks portrayal, which I thought stole the thunder a bit out of his testimony. Maybe I'm too technical with balance, but at least I'm not just eating up his story with hook, line and sinker. but really I'm not a relative to Noah, he can keep his good name distinct from 'potheads' like myself, though I'm sure there are a lot of people on this site that hit the pipe a lot more than I do, I just have the marginal personality and I have less stakes in this comunity so I put myself out in the open , but because they stay out of the way of controversy they don't get hit with that rep. Noah is a really great guy and I don't want to get him mixed up in my debates and 'huntches' on Rick. So Noah Thomson is without a P and I'm a ThomPson with a P to my name. Nice try though.... I don't know where you were going with that, but I really like Noah from the one time I've met him and I have no quams with him. And I've never been to Japan although I have lived in Brazil and so has Noah, at different times though so we actually never met there either, maybe that's another reason why they think we're related. I wouldn't consider myself antisocial and I also resent that label, although I won't persecute you for your ignorant perception. Keep up the research though, maybe one day you might learn a thing or two about me and there is a lot of social and friendly once you get to know me better. I just have a fisty debating personality on this site, and don't back down to challenges, and I'm not afraid of being a critic when I smell less than complete candid portrayals of truth. Sometimes it takes a mistaken statment to corect a mistaken perception, and that might be the case here. One has to stirr to pot to get people's reactions going and that's when peoples personalities come out and how they deal with the situation shows a lot about their character. But, I too am wrong from time to time just like everyone else, and I admit that maybe I got carried away with this character analysis, but I might be the blind feeling the tail of this 'elephant' while the rest of the people on this site might be feeling his trunk? I just got a very negative vibe from Rick and his buddy Shaka at the market when I was making baloons, and clowning around before my wicca class about a month ago. And you know what, it wasn't even in words. And you could reverse this whole thing making it sound like a lame atempt at getting some sympathy from those at the site as well as himself, and I too could have gotten the raw end of his character lately and he might actually be fine with everyone else. I was clowning at the market in OB and I'm sure seeing me as a clown was probably part of it, after all clowns are probably there to be made fun of, but there was something else to it, this wasn't a laugh, it was a demeaning look, like what I was doing was completely out to lunch, like I was seen as wasting my time, or it just wasn't good enough. And I have sensitive eye for these things, call me hormonal if you wish. Sarafina was there too and although she pointed out that she didn't particularly care for my taste in pictures (Which I thought was fine, because they were made to be a bit outlandish), she was sweet, and didn't give me that same impression. I usually don't make such a fuss out of one scene or one meeting with someone, but I have to say how I feel sometimes even if it may be perceived as an attack, which it's not, just throwing a critique for the sake of improvement, not out of disdain. My goal is to bridge that disconnect and find ways of getting a feel for Ricks character not only privately but publicly because both of us have a public image and I think it's ok to get into a bit of a spar to get a feel for other's biases and reactions. Like they say, you don't really know someone frome being agreeable, one of the best ways of knowing someone is by challenging their assumptions. Although my approach might not be understood, I don't think it's senseless altogether. (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, August 20, 2004, 12:25 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL! WTF?? Sensitive is the right word here! I can tell you here and now that what you were thinking after seeing us at the market is totally out of wack. Do you really think that you can read us that well? Perhaps you are not as talented in that area as you would like to believe. I thought you were talking a little weird before but this is just plain ridiculous. Neither one of us were looking at you with disdain or anything of the sort. We had had a very long day and were a bit tired. I assure you that neither one of us could care less that you choose to support yourself by ballooning. Maybe the problem is not that we're "negative", it's that you're so damn sensitive and you take the slightest thing that has nothing to do with you and you blow it up in your mind to where it's a personal attack against you. No offense, but grow up dude! I'm sorry if I'm coming off strong but do not make accusations like that which are totally unfounded. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, misunderstandings happen. I get tired too... Really it was not just one thing, more like a few... but it's not worth getting into it now. You've said how you really feel and that's good enough for me. Hey sometimes you don't know until you ask, consider this me askinf for trouble. lol!(reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, August 27, 2004, 11:02 (Agree/Disagree?) AHHHHH - you're totally gonna be pissed at me Culti after this - hee hee.... Out of curiousity, how do you feel seeing people you know when you are clowning? Have you ever felt awkward or perhaps even a bit embarrased? Maybe not, I know you're comfortable with yourself to an extent that I could only dream of being myself, so I thought I'd ask.... A little psycho-analyzing to start off your day... Your friend, Joni(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 02:42 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree! Whatever gets the job done, but the goal should be resolution not continuing a trend that supports itself, that's all I'm saying. I'm all for satisfaction of painful drives. But the ends don't always justify the means. I'm not contradicting in the crux of the matter, I just want to make sure we exhaust the possible consequences to make sure we really deal with the root and not just the symptoms. And as to some of my friends in the entertainment biz, I just don't feel comfortable sharing my links until I'm close to ready in completion, until then you have the right to be skeptical in doubting it altogether, or not, if you chose to have some faith in me and my sense of fairness and the obsessive libra that I am, even if I might be living a stereotype, I am a bit taken by this conditioned characteristic in me, it just happens to fit my character. I do contradict a lot but not out of malice. I just don't want to leave any stone unturned, and I often end up overdoing it, but what's the worst that can happen I just exhaust the issue until it dies. I know we have a powerful story to tell not just to those who know us or where we came from, but also to all of those who have been mistreated by groups like our own, and those who simply struggle on some equal level, I'm sure we can inspire hope in more than just our clan.(reply to this comment)

From lets not get confused.. Friday, August 20, 2004, 07:43 (Agree/Disagree?) IMO, I distinctly got the feeling that Ricki was after justice and a good payback, he's entitled to that, isn't he? as opposed to "bitter revenge" which is something the family do religiously label anyone who speaks out. I must admit that sometimes those feelings can be confused, but I saw none of that in his post. I know that after someone leaves there is much to take in and that the past can be left on the shelf and that we only deal with things when we are ready too! I believe what he said- that he is! I also think each person has a cause that drive's them on, (and thats healthy if you don't let it consume you.) we happen to have this one and Ricki being Zerby's own son, I assume has a tad more issues with her then all of us. But thats his personal business and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Ricki, i'm glad your out and hope your plan goes well. I for one will be cheering you on. ( as long as it's within the Law so to speak ;)) I do wonder tho, have you ever confronted her before? You don't have to answer. peace (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, August 19, 2004, 15:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, Jules! What about those of use who have struggled when we left the group because we had nothing, but have worked hard and ultimately achieved some success? If the reason we struggled at first is because we went astray, are we less astray now that we're successful? Last I checked I was even more "astray" and systemitey than when I first left and thankfully I go further "astray" by the day! The more educated I get, the more "systemitey" and anti-everything-the-Family-leaders-stand-for I become. And I guess also that for some reason the "wonderful training" was no good to sustaing us during those years of uncertainty and struggle, it all came back to us once we achieved our goals? If the Family "education" I got was not substandard, why did I have to make up for so much that I missed during those years of struggle when the "wonderful training" was conveniently AWOL and I had no idea if I would make it? With great thinkers like those who come up with that idiotic propaganda and then refused to answer our questions, punishing us for asking, no wonder they could not keep our restless and hungry minds. I am not grateful to them for the years of misery, that's laughable! Everything I have managed to get has taken so much hard work and I had to fight tooth and nail for long years. They should disclose to their youth, when they tell them some of us have gone one to have great academic credentials, what percentage of the same exers whose credentials they tout as The Family's doing think highly of The Family. "No matter what happens, the Family will use it against you and who cares what they think anyway?" You're so right. Although it is upsetting and an outrage when my abusers have lied about me on top of abusing me, it is reassuring to be ill-though-of by child abusers and thieves. Like the NBC commentators said about under-privileged gymnast Mohini Bhardwaj, one thing about underdogs is that they just don't know how to quit. I have a feeling The Family will soon be wishing that their escapees who have persisted in the face of so many obstacles were a lot less relentless.(reply to this comment)

From Get Real Thursday, August 19, 2004, 15:28 (Agree/Disagree?) *The Family* sure believes that "Revenge, the way you propose it, sucks big time and cast a shadow on you and your motives and your state of mind." The majority of humanity doesn't feel that way and by no means is your statement a generally accepted principle. It's not anything but an opinion that can be espoused by people if they can't deal with harsh realities & have to have everything smiley. Most people consider that when you are wronged it is normal to want the person who did it to pay. That's what the whole criminal justice system is about! I can't believe yor other statement: "looking at the things you write, you're no picture of innocence yourself." Jeeezus, since when do only wrongs against the lily-white pure (uh, like infants who can't do anything at all on their own or Mother Theresa) constitute wrongs that deserve redress? The Family likes to make it sound that way because they don't really have other defenses. Even people who get caught murdering a child killer in jail get punished, and for G*d's sake, Ricky has done nothing of the sort! Are you sure you don't mean to sound self-righteous? Cause you really do. I agree with the person who said to CI that it seems the hyper-critical attitude of The Family with its "You Are Your Own Worst Enemy" propaganda has left some of us really harsh on others and ourselves. Where is the truth in their trope "we have so much more love than the System"? And certainly, if "negativity" is such an evil thing, I recommend The Family be less negative to its indentured servants. Maybe you should "get the victory" over the influence of Family mentality and using Family lingo!(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Thursday, August 19, 2004, 23:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Two wrongs don't make one right. I am a critic, and I believe Jules, Rick and anyone on this site is not out of the loop of reality checks. Sounds like a Jew crying antisemitism every time a jew is under scrutiny. Get over it. Israel today has repeated a lot of the same mistakes in it's treatment of palestines, and I fear that some of our atitudes of bitterness and revenge might project similar effects of continuing the trend of hate instead of enlightening and searching for truth. I'm no bed of roses, and because of that I am able to talk freely without feeling like I have stakes in these debates. I'm often wrong, but if you don't like it fight me bitch, I love it.(reply to this comment)

From you are a... Thursday, August 19, 2004, 15:16 (Agree/Disagree?) There are a lot of c*nts on this website trying to fuck with people's heads and you "lotstoforget" are one of them, i'd like to bury a hatchet "deeeeep" into your skull you prat.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:39 (Agree/Disagree?) The best way to keep people from fucking with you is to loose dissafect yourself from the lingo which had you bound, and take the words in their dictionary meaning without getting stuck with the 'implied' bull that came in the perversion of language from Zerby, Berg and their illiterate fundamentalist userping of semantics.(reply to this comment)

From lotstoforget Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, well, why don't you go to Iraq, my friend, and practice some of that hatchet action there. Might end up with one in your skull too. If you think that hate, revenge, hatchets, etc. will solve your problems and will be an ultimate solution to the problems this sick little planet is facing - go on and practice it! I can tell you the outcome already, though. More violence, more wars and finally the day of accounting when the shit hits the fan and this planet goes up in flames. Sorry, I can tell by your style that your faith has pretty much bottomed out. People that confess to have kept their faith are usually bashed on this website, so I expect a howl from some of the more vocal "fuck God and Jesus" adherents. Sorry folks, I still do believe that forgiveness, men and women of peace and good will, humility and integrity will ultimately prevail. Period. Call me a Family friend, supplanter, traitor, whatever, I still believe that Jesus' answers are the only tangible solutions to the problems we are facing today. If that upsets some folks here - let's hear about it, shall we?(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 02:08 (Agree/Disagree?) I think Jesus was probably a good person, an innovator for sure. I don't think he's what most religious portray him to be. I do believe in forgiveness but also in equity and karma, and that forgiveness doesn't mean people should not be responsible for the damage they've caused. I'm against the capital punisment because that's a way out of the issue and it continues the trend of hate. Ghandi was not a pacifist and neither am I. I do see conflict, even resulting in death, as an option in the defense of self and those who are innocent. But I think that better than passion of revenge is taking the fight to a higher level of precision not out of getting back, but out of fixing the problem for good, even if it means that someone got away with doing something wrong without being put do death for it. It's better to find a solution than to penalize those who acted wrongly. I believe in the power of helping people realize the effect of their actions and doing all that's possible to make them realize the pain that they've caused instead of letting them get away with the vicious cycle of producing more pain. But that's just my opinion, and not all pain is in vain. Sometimes there is more than physical pain, and emotional pain, I believe that those who do harm also live with pain of not really living. And both the victime and the pedofile are suffering in a way and I know it's risky of me to put this out, but the goal should be of ending the suffering for both. Neither the victim should be at risk of this abhorrent abuse, neither should we be locking these sick people and throwing out the key. Once they've realized their mistake they too should have a way to make it right and survive.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Thursday, August 19, 2004, 15:08 (Agree/Disagree?) 'Getting the victory'??? Are you for real?!?! (reply to this comment)

From katrim4 Thursday, August 19, 2004, 13:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Damn dude, with friends like that, who needs enemies? I for one think sticking it to the Fam in any way possible is wonderful. Contact me if you'd like Ricky.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 12:06 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sure you're agreeable with all your friends, come on give me a break! I'm not about to bash rick over the head, just like to shake things up a bit.(reply to this comment)

From Shaka Thursday, August 19, 2004, 11:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Culti, I've always liked you but I think what you've just written is the stupidest and rudest thing I have ever read on this site. How can you call yourself Rick's friend and say such complete bullshit about him? First of all, you say it's impossible to hold a conversation with him without sarcasm. I live with the guy and that is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. And do you think it's actually possible to tell the truth about the Family without bashing it? Everything about the Family is disgusting and wrong so to tell the truth about it would always seem like bashing. You sound like every little Family wimp that advises us to "not be so bitter". How the fuck can you criticize him when he's "negative"? He had it worse than most on this site and he sure as hell had it worse than you. "Been pampered a bit as the royal son"? WTF?? Are you out of your mind? And it's really none of your business that he's not more "in touch with his feminine side". Since you want to portray that about him I can tell you here that you could stand to let your male side control you a bit more. And if there's one thing Rick is not, it's a Momma's boy. He hates his mother more than anyone else in the world for the life she's led and the people she's destroyed. I say that if he found a way to squeeze them for their ill-gotten gains, then Kudos to him. I would have done the same had I the chance. And he stopped doing that years ago. Revenge is something that most of us here are dying to have. Maybe we don't break into song and start writing poetry when we're down. Maybe you don't want revenge because you're all for peace and loving your neighbor and all that but that's not what we want. And if that means sometimes stooping to their level and fighting dirty then so be it. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 02:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I still dissagree that he had it worse than anyone else. He did have it bad and was abused, but I don't think you're really using your head in this one. Or maybe he had it worse than you, but I know family members who I believe had it far worse, including a lot of young girls for one. There is no doubt that he's had it very bad, but there are degrees of abuse and I'm not convinced his was at the very low. Comparing abuse is not really an issue I want to get into right now because they're very difficult to measure, but talking about it is not entirely wrong either. I have to point out that there are forms of abuse that he did not go through in his WS Unit. And you can call me a heartless prick if you want but I think this is an important issue for those of you who grew up in WS to notice that there are those who livedon the field that went through a lot of stuff that you might not have been aware of. That goes for those of you who grew up in first world countries like the US and Japan, and it might seem like I'm just trying to get back at you for better econimic conditions but I'm not I'm merely pointing out while we're talking about pain and recongnising the damage in order to document it that it sometimes helps to keep one's eyes open to other's suffering to get us out of thinking we're the only ones and gives us way of also seeing what we missed, again stressing a level of healing through empathy towards other's suffering. WS kids probalbly suffered in that their comunities were a lot more closed and they had less socialization with socieity to compare with and gain a picture of what life can be like outside of the group Field home kids had it rough in that we were more economically abused especially in the early days of litnessing when our mothers went out FFing and we hit the pavements to support WS units. Am I out of line for pointing this out? There was more than sexual abuse at stake, not to minimize it's detriment. (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, August 20, 2004, 11:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Okaaayy Culti, let's not go into the subject of not using our heads for your sake. Have you heard Rick's story in it's entirety? No, you have not. I am not going to go into the exact forms of abuse he suffered because those are personal issues and it would be rude of me to invade his privacy, something you seem to have no respect for. But I can say that it is enough to be justified in wanting revenge for the rest of your life. I didn't have it nearly as bad as him but I still would love to see the Family destroyed and everyone in authority dead. And I will continue to feel like that till the day I die it it hasn't already happened. Your problem is that you, like TF, think that everything can be solved by peace and loving your neighbor. News Flash: The world does not turn on love, despite what the Kiddie Viddies say. Once again, this is all something that could have been a private e-mail to Rick instead of directly attacking him in public. Like you said, I don't want this to badly affect our social relationship as we have mutual friends (which is really the only reason this is being worded this nicely) and I still consider you my friend even though I sometimes wonder what you are under the influence of. But to each their own, right? You are entitled to your opinion and I'm sorry you think this has gone too far but I think we'll both agree that me and Rick did not start this, nor were we the long-winded ones. I think everyone here knows my stance on love and peace vs. force (Heh heh, Love ya lots peaceniks, especially you Haunted and frmrjoyish. Biiiigg MUAH). I feel the same way about The Family that I do about war. Peaceful solutions will get us nowhere and will definitely make no lasting difference. We are fighting scum and we can never beat them unless we fight like them; dirty. I think you will not find too many supporters in your, sorry to say, very Family like views.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 01:00 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you've done a good job with diplomacy being that it's not a forte you'd like to brag of, in your testosteronic pride, go for it, nothing wrong with that. Thanks for not thinking I'm completely unable to be your friend, and I think it's been good to get this out publically as privacy has it's limits, and I think it's time that we become somewhat more public on some aspects of what we stand for and how we see the world, which one reason I find this site, whether intentionally or accidentally a growing experience. Everyone has something to contribute, and at this point a mistake is probalby my contribution, it says a lot about you that you're stepping up for your friend. I didn't mean to get you all involved into it, I kind of felt ignored as a friend when I saw rick, and so I took it upon myself to call his magic green shirt in public as a daring action, for the fuck of it to see how he'd react. Probably something most wouldn't, I do that sometimes. But I think I may have been a bit a bit crass in this case. Cool to see there is some mercy in your heart. I still think that any hatred hurts the hater more than the hated. But that's just my opinion. I guess I've always see cold justice as more efficient at the end like in the martial arts movies, lol!(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 01:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey I've defended lame contradictions before, but I'm surprised that you can't play the devil's advocate on issues from time to time? I think people on this site take Rick way too seriously for their own good, and a new type of cult is centering around believing key figures before analyzing what's being said. I think we should see Rick as an important voice for all of us, but not take all he says as bible without holding a healthy level of sketicism. I think he, Jules and everyone should be held at equal standards of scrutiny or we're prone to repeating the same mindless herding. Ok, take your mind off the fact that I'm contradicting Rick, and even of sillly casual remarks like calling his approach (not him as a person) a moma's boy. I'm saying that I would have done it differently, I would have asked for more than just a mere living and I would have displayed the location anyhow. And what if I'm wrong.... Can't I make a mistake? Why can't I fucking contradict him. Are friends not supposed to contradict? Gosh, it's through conflict sometimes that we get to deeper issues and getting to know how people react, sometimes more important that what is being said altogether. Who the fuck cares if he's a Moma's boy? (reply to this comment)

From shikaka Friday, August 27, 2004, 11:16 (Agree/Disagree?) This site is turning me into a drama junkie!!! MORE DRAMA!(reply to this comment)

From el bummo Saturday, August 28, 2004, 06:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Popcorn anyone?(reply to this comment)

From Banshee Friday, August 20, 2004, 11:40 (Agree/Disagree?) OMG, are you serious? You actually think that "a new type of cult is centering around believing key figures" and that people are "[taking] all [Rick] says as Bible"? Really? Dude, give us all a little more credit. We have spent our whole LIFE having false beliefs and twisted psychology jammed down our throats. I don't think any of us approach anything these days WITHOUT a "healthy level of skepticism." I think we all DO hold Rick, Jules, and anyone else at equal standards of scrutiny. Having a known or recognized name as an exmember doesn't change anything about the way we perceive them. We've had ENOUGH of that in the Family!! The only thing I notice as far as having our opinions "tainted" is if one is personal friends of another exmember. But that is totally normal, and so far removed from beginning any new type of cult. I may be wrong here, but I think that most people who have said something about your comments to Ricky would have had the same reaction even if Ricky’s posts had been anonymous. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 01:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok so, maybe I fucked up... but I sure got a whiff of a strange kind of coherance... where's the good ol skepticism amongst friends? Hating his mother is exactly my point, think deeper tough guy. The hardest issues to face are sometimes only dealt when they seem so damn right that they blind from what's really at stake, Rick's long term objective. But I think this post has gone too far, if I've offended Rick or you I'm sorry.(reply to this comment)

From cassy Thursday, August 19, 2004, 10:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I most of us second generation would take offense at what you said, I quote, "don't you want to feel like you achieved more than just destroy something". That sounds like Family talk. I'm grateful for the people who "destroyed" Hitler and that Nazi party and every other werido person or group who messed up and did serious damage to others. That's not "destroying" -- that's "justice" and Zerby does not deserve to live our her days in prosperity and leisure while she first handly has been part of damaging many of our lives directly or indirectly. The "Family" is responsibly for splitting up more families (including mine), and their good is just self-righteousness that is a slap in the face to every person they have fucked over in the Name of God. We children of the COG have a responsibility to speak the truth and not sit by in silence while they go on their merry way. Yes, we may not totally irradicate them, but we can severely limit them and make sure they are properly monitored as they should be. WS should not be allowed to hide anymore. They should be exposed and we should force them to come out legally or make them run for the rest of their days.(reply to this comment)

From Monday, January 17, 2005, 08:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree, well said. (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, August 19, 2004, 10:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Is there a chance I can find all of your ideas distilled in book form in the Self Help Section at Barnes and Noble?(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 00:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry not a bookworm, are you?(reply to this comment)

From Banshee Thursday, August 19, 2004, 10:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Okay, this may just be me, but if a so-called "friend" of mine got up on a public website and dumped all this personal shit about me out for the world to see--even if it was just their personal opinion about me--and tried to psychoanalyze my problems, counsel me, or tell me all the things they think is wrong with me ON A PUBLIC WEBSITE, I would feel like smacking them up side of the head long before I would feel like listening to what they had to say. True, you may have weaved a few points in your post that have to do with subjects discussed on this website, such as "seeking justice" and your take on that, but all this personal stuff about Ricky and his problems and character flaws (perceived by your point of view) and whatnot I feel does not belong on this website. This is what people's email addresses are on this site for. Ricky gave his right in here in one of the postings. I guess I just don't see why did you feel you had to drag out all this stuff publicly? You say in your post, "saying this online probably makes me more vulnerable than ever." What did you mean by that? You weren't talking about your problems or weaknesses, but freely sharing your version of someone else's. How does this make YOU vulnerable? Maybe I've misunderstood this here, and maybe Ricky said you could post all this about him. But coming from someone who has never met him, you've portrayed quite a picture of someone that probably most of us have never met, and who now all have a mind picture of him that you have drawn. I personally would like to be able to make my own opinion of someone, draw my own conclusions through their OWN posts or through meeting them in person rather than hearing a scathing assessment from a person's acquaintance. I'm sure that you have good intentions, and that you want to help, but I guess for me I've spent my whole life growing up--as we all did--in an environment of constant extreme judgmental onslaughts and self-righteous dictatorships with a relentless barrage of people you met inflicting their own version of righteousness and counsel and telling you how to think and breath and live. So for me, I tend to go to the other extreme these days, especially with fellow exers; I feel that I am in no position whatsoever to judge another person or their life, their place in it, or what stage of healing they are in, no matter what it may be. I've had that all my life, I couldn't dream of inflicting that on another suffering heart. I guess that's why this whole post just dug at me. I'm sorry to say this out like this, but it's how I feel. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Saturday, August 21, 2004, 00:47 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you're honest in your portrayal, and I think I could have handled it differently. Rick and I are friends in that we've been able to discuss things to some personal level when we briefly lived together at FCF. Rick, has decided to share part of his life with us, and I don't think it's that public in that it is a targeted audience, us exmember FGAs. True that good intentions aslo pave the way to hell, and hearing your well worded honest view makes me think a bit deeper about what i said. The points were a bit scattered and I mixed in some stuff, like my objective view on his debate, with my experience from seing him agian after so many years, and mixing both on this web site is a mistake. You're absolutely right! I should have kept my impressions on our recent visit private, that would have been the ethical thing to do. Rick doesn't wish to debate his personal life, and let's just leave it at that. Not everyone likes to display their guts to the world... that's fine too. He's done his share of biting back, and I think it's a good place to call it end of subject. I'm not going to take this out forever... the issues that were worth talking about have also been exhausted I guess. (reply to this comment)

From revulsed Thursday, August 19, 2004, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I think this post by cultinvator is outrageous. I agree with Banshee, that is what private email is for. There is absolutely NO reason for posting this crap publicly. Cultinvator, your post reeks of self-aggrandizement. God help Ricky if he counts you among his friends. You sound like some sort of wannabe. (reply to this comment)

From neez Saturday, August 21, 2004, 00:31 (Agree/Disagree?) He's really more of a wannabe wannabe.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 01:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Wow, I hit a nerve. So questioning his choice of leverage was really all that outrageous.... Come on he's got thicker skin than that. I've been through worse. I guess he really does have a following. You reek kissass, how's that?(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, August 19, 2004, 06:49 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know the relationship or history between the two of you but I can say for myself that if I had had a way to somehow squeeze money out of my parents or anyone in TF I would have. Most of us have been in desperate situations after leaving and what he did is understandable given the circumstances. Personally I don't think it makes him look bad. His parents owe him many times more than what he managed to get out of them. We are all owed restitution, not that we'll ever get it, but if a few of us manage to somehow get enough to scrape by, well, I don't see the harm in that. No matter what we do TF will try to find a way to discredit us and make us look bad. We'll never win with them but hopefully we stop them from putting future generations in the situations we were forced into. (reply to this comment)

From Nick Thursday, August 19, 2004, 13:42 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree 100%. I do not at all see Ricky's getting money from his mother as blackmail. He was deprived of an education and started out with little or no knowledge of secular society and needed a boost to get started. His mother probably has millions at her disposal thanks to the 14% she gets from 7000 people every month so why not throw her son a few bones? As for cults post, I don’t even know where to start but one thing that hits me is that you seem to imply that most ex members are social misfits of some sort and we all have identity crisis. While some ex members do, I don't think you can use that as a blanket statement and imply every one of us do. It all depends on how you grew up while in the group. Now cult, lay of the ganja and granola, spend less time running around the beach in the nude and give the guy some credit. From what I hear he is pretty well adjusted to secular life and doing well. Looking forward to meeting you next week Ricky.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 12:09 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry if I gave that impression, that would be stupid being that that would include myself. No I think probably most ex-members have a nice think skin to protect themselves from head fucking manipulators and I think we thrive because of our immunity not because of the family but in spite of it.(reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Friday, August 20, 2004, 00:35 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess I'm going to have to keep my clothes on, gosh. I hate loosing my freedom to be free willy but I do enjoy civilization and I enjoy being part of this website and enjoy hearing from you guys in spite of my 'ganja and granola' image, which in some ways I agree is selfinflicted. But I guess you all know I have to accept the things I like in life, and pride is something important, more than shame in my opinion. I'm proud to be a radical liberal who likes to let it hang out verses being reserved. The past is a small percentage of my world, and pure realism based on past concepts are just too crampy for my ever changing world. It's just the way I am, but I'm not against refinement, and I too have my limits, and accept being put in my place when I get ahead of myself. I'm not getting smokey kisses from my gf today, since she's back to work today, but I'm sure the damage is not out of control for the young impressionables. I will be running around in my newmade costumes at Burning Man next week, runing around the weirdest people on earth, and frieks too no doubt, but I get to explore the limits of human nature in the desert, enhancing selfsustanablity and selfreliance, values high up in my belief system. I guess I wont' be seing any responsible 5-9 one two-week-a year-vacation conservatives at the party, oh well... I'm such a weirdo ain't I? But I've never liked the definition of straight, ever since I was a kid. I was born different, I started to walk backwards before I walked forwards, it's in my grain. I'm so bad, I'm going to hell in a handbasket, and I enjoy being a friek. But I get my selfconcious moments too... Every freedom has it's restriction, I work during the weekends, and I sometimes miss the cycle of those who live 'regular well-rooted lives' but then again, they miss the spontaneous feel I get in my life, and at the end everyone is a clown for someone... might as well be a clown for me and what I enjoy right? As long as it works for me don't you think it comes close to 'dealing with my environment' the definition of success, isn't it. I'm sure I'll grow into other phases, but I'd like to make the best of this one, who knows what the future holds. I had phobias of being a dork, I didn't like my homophobic views, and I never felt comfortable with those who 'had it all worked out' life is just so everchaning that I believe that every moment is redefined by my spirit and how I interpret it... and I'm not about to let all those who came before me to define my life for me, of course a fraction of me is from my past and where I came from, but I'm at the point where I can redefine it and I like to push it to the extreme.(reply to this comment)

from Zed Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:19 (Agree/Disagree?) So you want to find Zerby and co., and do what? What's the next part of the plan? Have them arrested and brought up on charges? Laws differ from country to country. Besides, by now they know that you're looking for them and will probably take measures to prevent you from succeeding. Finding them might be a start but there's a lot more to "bringing them to justice" then just getting their address. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Tuesday, August 17, 2004, 10:06 (Agree/Disagree?) He would have to be really stupid to answer your question on a public site.(reply to this comment)

from Fish Monday, August 16, 2004 - 18:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Show me where they are and I will gladly bell or shall we say bag this cat.But Im guessing that this is all futile talk as its unlikely we could ever find them without abundant funding and lengthy research.If someone does get lucky and stumble upon them post it!!I have a few issues to "discuss" with the winetaster and co. (reply to this comment)

From Ricky Monday, August 16, 2004, 21:45 (Agree/Disagree?) I think I may need to clarify the point I was trying to make so it doesn't get lost in translation. It was necessary to write it with great attention to the wording so nobody would misunderstand and get the wrong idea. The problem with doing that is that sometimes the meaning is missed altogether. What I was trying to say--and again, I'm carefully wording this to avoid the wrong kind of misunderstanding--is that this kind of talk is not futile at all because I'm not planning on waiting around for somebody to find Mama and Peter by chance. I'm planning on actively looking for Mama and Peter, and I'm planning on doing so in such a way that will ensure 100% success! We will look for them in such a way that there will be no need for excessive funding or lengthy research. There will be very little luck involved as far as looking for them goes. I'll say this one more time so there's as little confusion as possible: I know exactly how to look for them, and I'm certain that I will find them. The reason for writing this, though, is that having another person or persons to search with me would make it possible that we could get Mama and Peter to face justice, as opposed to possibly just finding them if I were to search alone. Even though this search may not take long to complete, it will require much dedication and commitment. So I'm looking for one or two other people who are of the necessary mind set and have the emotional strength and conviction to help me successfully accomplish this search. If I do not find anybody able to help, eventually I will start to look myself. With the right person helping, though, we will be 10 times as likely to succeed. (reply to this comment)

From Fish Sunday, August 22, 2004, 09:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok well let’s say you were able to track them down. Then what??? I doubt any of us has anything but words to use as immediate evidence of wrongdoing. What are you going to do? Call the cops and say "arrest her, she’s evil!!!!" I don’t mean to be discouraging but from what I’ve heard about you, you’re not exactly rich. I’m well off at the moment but I have no desire to give up my comfortable lifestyle. As much as Id like to punish them for what they did to me, I can see no way of doing this legally. I have no problem going outside the law, however that sort of thing costs money. Not to forget, money is one thing that they seem to have in abundance, while we have limited amounts. Honestly, I’m not convinced that they could be tracked down so easily. I’m in Japan at the moment where the government is still after the Amu cultist’s leaders. It’s been what, 8 years and still no arrests... I am interested in helping you, though I don’t have much freetime. Perhaps I will email you for more specifics.(reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Sunday, August 22, 2004, 17:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually there's been several arrests in the Amu Shinrikyo's case, which has been ongoing for over 8 years, and the leader was given the death-sentece as well as some of his sub-leaders. I think a first step is just locating and finding out the present location and legal names of both Zerby and Peter, which will be difficult due to the fact that they often and frequently move and are known to switch passports through illegal means. It also seems that too many details given on a public forum such as this would be counter-productive, as the cult will have full awareness of the moves being made, and would be able to countre-measure them. Maybe you should write Ricky privately and ask for more information? (reply to this comment)

From Yuki Monday, August 23, 2004, 07:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Porceleindoll I know you, but you don’t know me. Of course I know they caught Asahra, my point was that of the big 4 that are internationally wanted, 3 are still at large. I’m well aware that this site is monitored by the fam. I was one of those who did that. I’m well connected in Japan ( at least I like to think so) and though I know about more things than they would like me to, I haven’t ever had the slightest whiff of their higher level workings. I doubt very many Fam, even VS leadership do. If you are interested in the Ocult, I strongly advise that you start by reading the Libri of Aleister Crowley so at least youll have a faint idea of what not to do.(reply to this comment)

From could be wrong Monday, August 23, 2004, 09:06 (Agree/Disagree?) If you're the Yuki I'm thinkin of then I'd say it's, "at least I like to think so". (reply to this comment)

From Fish Monday, August 23, 2004, 10:07 (Agree/Disagree?) My, my you havent changed. Hows your dads back?(reply to this comment)

From cassy Wednesday, August 18, 2004, 14:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I couldn't think of a better detective than you, and I also agree that with the info you know it would not be hard to track them down. It will be great to make their life hell and get them out of their smug idea that somehow they can keep up their little lives in their bubble of false security. (reply to this comment)

From holysavage Tuesday, August 17, 2004, 07:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, do you need help with this one, cause if you do I could give you a hand with your research,etc. I am pretty good at this sort of thing. Anyhow,if you need help,my E-mail is thegaliam@yahoo.com(reply to this comment)

from Nick Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Interesting how they can blow 90k on a motor home yet the little people at the bottom of the ladder, the people that really are trying to make a difference and be true missionaries, are barley able to get together their rent money and yet still send them their 14 % every month. I guess a 5 or 10k used motor home was just not what the lord wanted for his end time prophet. (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Monday, August 16, 2004, 11:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Even more ironic is the fact that they bought this motorhome for roughly the price of a small condo or apartment (or, in some states, even a house). Family members have always been discouraged from buying or investing in real estate--a market in which there is relatively little depreciation--yet they feel perfectly justified in buying a motorhome that loses 20%-30% of its value the minute it leaves the dealer's lot. And these are the same people who claim they are going to be a financial power?(reply to this comment)

From Monday, August 16, 2004, 15:07 (Agree/Disagree?) that would depend heavily on where you're buying the small condo(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, August 19, 2004, 06:39 (Agree/Disagree?) semantics that have nothing to do with the issue at hand(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Monday, August 16, 2004, 16:25 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree. My comment, however, was made with the average Family Home in mind and the areas of town and house-size they tend to favor.(reply to this comment)

from Regi Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky, I am with you. It kills me to think that child molesters (the worst criminals imaginable in my opinion) get off scott free. Although I do have doubts that justice will ever be served because of the perpetrators' freakish ability to escape to other countries and remain “selah,” I do hope deep in my heart that it will. I’m just confused about how much can or should be done. In the long run, I think the cult will dwindle down to a few remaining freaks and will remain harmless enough but to what extent should we help expedite that process? (reply to this comment)

from Someone who feels that way too Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 18:06 (Agree/Disagree?) So how would someone interested in lawful pursuit of justice go about getting in touch to exchange ideas? (reply to this comment)

From Ricky Sunday, August 15, 2004, 18:52 (Agree/Disagree?) my email address is coolspark120@yahoo.com(reply to this comment)

from MollyM Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 14:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Good to hear ur still alive and kicking, Ricky. When I left (nearly a year ago) I tried to tell my parents and some other FGA's about your article about Mene etc. and was told that TF was veiwing some videos ) where Peter explained that you had tried to blackmail them and they had stopped paying out so your were hitting back out of malice etc. I suppose the whole money thing did damage your credibility with current members - when ur in you are always grasping at straws to strengthen your resolve (or faith if you'd call it that) and belief that the leaders are telling you the truth. We've all had our struggles leaving (for some it's been much harder than others) but I suppose you've got to use what you can to survive. If playing on your Mom and Peters paranoia helped you and Nicole to get on your feet then good for you... Cheers (reply to this comment)

From Sunday, August 15, 2004, 19:02 (Agree/Disagree?) yeah, I mean, it's cult money. Like who's got a problem with taking money from Zerby and co.? If everybody who left got as much money out of them as possible, maybe there would not be enough to continue fucking up thousands of peoples lives and sending Peter on PR junkets. Zerby and them pay out to keep people quiet. They try to buy people off. So take the money and talk anyway. I bet they've paid off other "important" people who've left TF. They're probably scared shitless that other Fam members will find out and demand some kind of severance pay. Cna you imagine if people in WS started leaving and asked for a golden parachute for services rendered? They could bleed TF dry real fast. Whatever happened to John A? Is he still in? Kudos to ya, Rick, and glad you're well. (reply to this comment)

From Cultinvator Wednesday, August 18, 2004, 02:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Follow the $, worked with Nixon. So are we supposed to submit first and ask questions later? Are you thinking about how this affects those who join in? Just curious? I'm determined but skeptical. (reply to this comment)