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from ChivasRegal Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 08:01 (Agree/Disagree?) King Saul saw a witch at Endor to bring up the spirit of Samuel the prophet... if only she was still around I'd ask her to bring up Berg the turd (reply to this comment)

from Magic of google.com Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 07:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Deut. 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 1Sam.15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king. 2Kings 9:22 And it came to pass, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?2Chr.33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. Mic.5:12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers: Nah 3:4Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. Wis.12:4 Whom thou hatedst for doing most odious works of witchcrafts, and wicked sacrifices; Gal.5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (reply to this comment)

From Otter Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 11:28 (Agree/Disagree?) If you were to read the other threads I think you would see what I was asking. Also those are in regards to witches & witchcraft. Words which didn't exist in other cultures until imported by christians in their wars & conquests. There is a big differience between magic & witchcraft, of which I see you know nothing about. There is no mention of the word magic in the bible. It people like you who slaughtered millions in their own interpretation of their holy books never taking the time to really view what was in them. I see your mind is made up & you would probably destroy the whole Earth & everyone who didn't believe like you. Keep going with your beliefs, just remember one day you are going to have to answer to all the people your hatred & close mindedness excluded from living peaceful lives. No one has the right to rule over others & force them to think like them.(reply to this comment)

From magic of google.com Thursday, December 22, 2005, 01:52 (Agree/Disagree?) To Otter: "...those are in regards to witches & witchcraft..." "...There is a big differience between magic & witchcraft, of which I see you know nothing about..." My trusty copy of The Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary of Current English, International Students Edition, although full of coffee stains, still spells out the following definitions (in a surprisingly legible manner): Witch 1. noun:a woman who is believed to have magic power 2. (disapproving) an ugly unpleasant old woman (like zerby) Witchcraft the use of magic powers, especially evil ones "...It people like you who slaughtered millions in their own interpretation of their holy books..." ???????!!!!!!!!!!??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????? Slaughtered millions? I've killed many flies in the cult on fly patrol which I readily volunteered to perform to escape the Jesus Gigolo Job Time Interpretation? I only posted afew passages from the bible that I got online (I don't even own a bible). "...I see your mind is made up..." Uh... okay whatever dude. Look who's talking. "... & you would probably destroy the whole Earth & everyone who didn't believe like you..." Well, if I destroyed the world, I would at least leave my barber, all the discos, stripper bars, and Tony Romas alone. "...Keep going with your beliefs..." or the lack thereof "just remember one day you are going to have to answer to all the people your hatred & close mindedness excluded from living peaceful lives" Hatred? I have love all over! I even have love for YOU! "No one has the right to rule over others & force them to think like them." Okay, I agree with you here. There are other nice ways to coerce, seduce, and manipulate people to think like me. and I feel much better when I employ these methods.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 22, 2005, 05:33 (Agree/Disagree?) **To: magic of google.com To Otter: "...those are in regards to witches & witchcraft..." "...There is a big differience between magic & witchcraft, of which I see you know nothing about..." My trusty copy of The Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary of Current English, International Students Edition, although full of coffee stains, still spells out the following definitions (in a surprisingly legible manner): Witch 1. noun:a woman who is believed to have magic power 2. (disapproving) an ugly unpleasant old woman (like zerby) Witchcraft the use of magic powers, especially evil ones **There are also other definitions in other dictionaries: Such as: Witch: Noun (in former times) 1. A woman believed to possess evil magic powers. 2. A person who practices magic or sorcery, especially black magic. 3. An ugly or wicked old woman. You see it all depends on what & where you look. Today’s world is full of examples of different Christian beliefs. How many cults or denominations believe differently & can prove their views in that book you call your holy book. Do you have the monopoly on how it’s interpreted? Are only you & your fellow followers going to heaven & all others to hell. They view the same thing about you. Who’s right? "...It people like you who slaughtered millions in their own interpretation of their holy books..." ???????!!!!!!!!!!??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????? Slaughtered millions? I've killed many flies in the cult on fly patrol which I readily volunteered to perform to escape the Jesus Gigolo Job Time interpretation? I only posted afew passages from the bible that I got online (I don't even own a bible). **I see I hit a personal node. I didn’t say “you”, but “like you”. You see when people are so desperate to defend their precious & dearly held beliefs they will grasp at anything in order to condemn or discredit what they fear. Just like the cult & religious groups do to those who oppose them. "...I see your mind is made up..." Uh... okay whatever dude. Look who's talking. "... & you would probably destroy the whole Earth & everyone who didn't believe like you..." Well, if I destroyed the world, I would at least leave my barber, all the discos, stripper bars, and Tony Romas alone. **I agree that we need these things plus a lot more. "...Keep going with your beliefs..." or the lack thereof **If there is a lack of them why are you defending the Christian point of view so strongly? "just remember one day you are going to have to answer to all the people your hatred & close mindedness excluded from living peaceful lives" Hatred? I have love all over! I even have love for YOU! **Listen, I have no love for you & don’t need any from you. I don’t know you. Love (in the dictionary) has many meanings ranging from care for those you know to sexual feelings. I’m not sure I ever met you & how can you say you love me. That is a blanket statement & something that cults use to their advantage. "No one has the right to rule over others & force them to think like them." Okay, I agree with you here. There are other nice ways to coerce, seduce, and manipulate people to think like me. and I feel much better when I employ these methods. **I would like to take a minute & look at the verses in the bible & the original words used there. Exo. 22:18, Deut. 18:10, 2 Chr. 33:6 Use the word in Hebrew “kashaph” which means to use sorcery. 2 Ki. 9:22, Mic.5:12, Nah, 3:4 Use the word in Hebrew “keshaphim” Which means sorcery I Sa. 15:23, Uses the Hebrew “qesem” which means divination, oath. Is it bad to make an oath? Okay, never promise anything. That means all courts of law are in direct contradiction of the bible. You can’t make an oath, it’s counted on the same par as witchcraft. So we need to burn all judges, lawyers & anyone now or in history that ever made an oath. You see if we use a book to back our personal beliefs we can defend anything. Gal 5:20 Uses the Greek word “pharmakeia” which means charm or remedy. Now with that anyone who uses a remedy is tantamount to a witch. All doctors & nurses & anyone uses anything to heal themselves should be stoned or burned or whatever you think should happen to witches. In fact if I want to defend my beliefs I would say that pharmacies have taken their name from this Greek word. So they should all be burned. You see we can back anything up from your holy book. And what is more the word magician: Gen. 41:8,24, Exod. 7:11,22, 8:7,19, 9:1, Dan. 1:20, 2:2, use the Hebrew word “chartummim” which means scribes & magicians. Dan. 2:10, 2:27, 4:7,9, 5:11, use the Hebrew word “chartom” which also means scribe & magician. Are scribes the same as witches? Aren’t we lumping what we don’t know & don’t understand or fear under one easy explanation in order to not have to face it. All this to say a belief in God is not by words or someone else’s love for us, it’s in every one of us. We don’t need someone to interpret something for us or make us fear what they fear. They shit just like us, they have the same hormones as us therefore the same feelings. They are not any better than you. They are trying the easy way in life, to live off of others & enjoy the power they wield over you.(reply to this comment)

From magic of google.com Friday, December 23, 2005, 21:12 (Agree/Disagree?) "...**If there is a lack of them why are you defending the Christian point of view so strongly?..." Now that's funny! Dearest, dearest otter, please tell me where did I ever defend the Christian point of view? "...**There are also other definitions in other dictionaries: Such as: Witch: Noun (in former times) 1. A woman believed to possess evil magic powers. 2. A person who practices magic or sorcery, especially black magic. 3. An ugly or wicked old woman. You see it all depends on what & where you look...." Yes that's true however the above definitions also refer to witch as someone that practices magic. Your article is about magic. The googled bible verses refer to witches. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the connection. "...**I see I hit a personal node. I didn’t say “you”, but “like you”. You see when people are so desperate to defend their precious & dearly held beliefs they will grasp at anything in order to condemn or discredit what they fear. Just like the cult & religious groups do to those who oppose them...." Exactly my point! Personally, I am an athiest who has a good laugh when meeting people like you referred to above. None of my above posts defended christianity. You posted an article regarding magic mentioned in the bible, I googled it and, copy - paste, wallah. "...**Listen, I have no love for you & don’t need any from you. I don’t know you. Love (in the dictionary) has many meanings ranging from care for those you know to sexual feelings. I’m not sure I ever met you & how can you say you love me. That is a blanket statement & something that cults use to their advantage..." Accept it otter! I love you. and I love movingon and whats most important, I'm in love with myself. Merry Christmas to all.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Saturday, December 24, 2005, 03:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Look I see you don't want to agrue. Never do I. Have a nice holiday. I by the way am not christian. I'm just upset at all the people who the christian rerligion killed without taking the time to understand them.(reply to this comment)

From magic of google.com Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 18:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Genesis 41:8 (Whole Chapter) And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magician s of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh. Genesis 41:24 (Whole Chapter) And the thin ears devoured the seven good ears: and I told this unto the magician s; but there was none that could declare it to me. Exodus 7:11 (Whole Chapter) Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magician s of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. Exodus 7:22 (Whole Chapter) And the magician s of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 8:7 (Whole Chapter) And the magician s did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt. Exodus 8:18 (Whole Chapter) And the magician s did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast. Exodus 8:19 (Whole Chapter) Then the magician s said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 9:11 (Whole Chapter) And the magician s could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magician s, and upon all the Egyptians. Daniel 1:20 (Whole Chapter) And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magician s and astrologers that were in all his realm. Daniel 2:2 (Whole Chapter) Then the king commanded to call the magician s, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king. Daniel 2:10 (Whole Chapter) The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician , or astrologer, or Chaldean. Daniel 2:27 (Whole Chapter) Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magician s, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; Daniel 4:7 (Whole Chapter) Then came in the magician s, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof. Daniel 4:9 (Whole Chapter) O Belteshazzar, master of the magician s, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. Daniel 5:11 (Whole Chapter) There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magician s, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers; (reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 22, 2005, 08:05 (Agree/Disagree?) By the way this Belteshazzar mentioned in Daniel 4:9 & 5:11 is none other than Daniel. He was master of the magicians. In order to keep that position he would have definitely had to deal & work with magic. What's a whole book praising him & his visions & all the christians before giving him glory for. He was a magician worked with magic. Burn him!!!! Is he in hell for dealing with magic??(reply to this comment)

from Baxter Monday, December 19, 2005 - 19:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Magic, so to speak, was an integral and standing element of European culture for centuries, and to the greater extent was not imposed upon by the church. It is only in so-called sorcery, the communion of man with the devil or the dead, that was considered heresy. for the most part this is the aspect thatis best remembered in folklore. Technically speaking, mysticism and magic have always bean rather closely aligned, and mysticism plays a prominent feature throughout both testaments. Much of the priestly rituals conducted by either the priesthood or the prophets in the old testament would fall into this category. (reply to this comment)

from Merlin the Magician--(Speaking from the Grave) Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 12:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Who is to say what Magic is right or wrong? Some of the concoctions sounded pretty simple to me, Mixing clay with spit and saying some words in Aramaic, and cauzing a blind man to see. My favorite wishing well, is the pool where the angel would, "Stir" the waters and the deformed people could cure their ailments. All throughout the bible there is tons literally hundreds of magic. Making iron float, creating food to feed 5000, not to mention the cruise of oil never running out. Ironically the Catholic Church never recognized anyone performing Magic as being of God untill they were dead, Then if the man with the paper white hat took a liking to that deceased person were they later canonized and their supernatural works considered "Miracles" You can put that in your magic pipe and smoke it!!! (reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 12:53 (Agree/Disagree?) You have a point. If they can't control you or get you to use it for them, then they have to destroy either you or what you stand for. Join them & they will make you famous in their twisted way.(reply to this comment)

from Bones Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes magic is a sin. As is everything that does not fall under the borrowed blanket of christianity. Do some research and you will find that christianity cannot attest to the ownership of any of it's celebrations or hollidays, and few stories and customs. Christianity is illegitimate. The story of a child born to a virgin, dying, and being resurrected, belongs to the babylonians long before the birth of Jesus ( look up Isis & Osiris ) Christmas & Easter, pagan. Religion was invented to serve as a social catalyst before there were laws to govern behavior. If there was "one true religion" it would be observed by every culture. But what works for for whitey has nothing to do with life in, say, China. Hence the multitudes of religions worldwide. All this to say, sin is a wall that exist's only in your mind. Break out and explore whatever inetrests you. I'm not saying give up Christianity for, say, Wicca. That would be like trading crap for shit. But you only live once ( unless you are Buddhist or Hindu ), so expand your horizon. Do what makes you happy. (reply to this comment)

From Otter Wednesday, December 14, 2005, 09:52 (Agree/Disagree?) I like your view point. I myself have my own beliefs that I consider personal, but I was just curious as to how others that lived in the cult view things. I could be wrong on this but I think that we have a head start on others as we have seen first hand the use of religion to further someone's goals. If after we go & join something we are putting ourselves back into the same thing again. Listening to someone tell us what to do & what to believe. All to further someone's or something's desire for power. If you closely examine the leaders of most religions they are some of the most devious people that exist. They think they are above the law & they can do or say anything in order to further or defend their religion. It's all through history. It seems people never learn or they don't want to have to live with their consciouses & their guilt of what they've done so they use religion as a guilt clearer. If you look at the religions in history they have gotten easier & easier to follow. And you can get forgiven your sins easier. Do something & then do this little hokus pokus & puff everything is gone. It's delusion on the grandest scale. (reply to this comment)

From Bones Wednesday, December 14, 2005, 10:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Right on.(reply to this comment)

from WHAT?? Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 16:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Is that what stop's you from practicing magic? Who cares if it's a sin? Haaa haaa haaa!! That's like flying your dragon because it might kill a fairy! Haaaaaaaa haaa. (reply to this comment)

from magic? Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 16:31 (Agree/Disagree?) "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" look it up in your concordance if you want to figure out where it's at (reply to this comment)

From Otter Wednesday, December 14, 2005, 01:09 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree. Who's to say it's a sin when we get blanket statements from one religion. The people who founded that religion, had to shit lie me & like in this world. I'm sure they did their bit of padding on their religion in order to be top dog, just like it's today. People always try to get rid of what they fear or what they view as a threat to their way of life, whether it's right or wrong. THe christians had no right going into someone else's country & forcing them to bow to their idea of right & wrong. Just as I have no right to go & force an Indian to eat beef. Everyone has a right to live in peace without the people who think they "know all" forcing them to be lke them. As you look around the world at the religions & their history, the christians have been and are the most short-sighted & bigoted group anywhere.(reply to this comment)

From Fish Sunday, December 18, 2005, 17:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Magic was never mentioned as a sin in the bible. In fact it is implied that Moses learned much from the egyptians. Witchcraft, on the other hand is an entirely differnt matter, as it utilizes the (unwilling) spirits of the dead. This was considerd tentamount to grave robbery. The orthodox jews believed in and practiced there own blend of "old testament" magic. They still do. That being said, nearly every religion frowns upon witchcraft, not just Christianity. Of course there are notable exceptions. (Voudoun, etc..) Baxter, reply to this. I quite enjoy debating esoteric nonsense with you, and its too cold here to go outside.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Wednesday, December 14, 2005, 01:00 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm looking for the word magic. You see as christianity was spread through the use of the sword & treachery, they labeled everything that they came against that they didn't like or understand as witchcraft. That way they had the right according to their religion to wipe it out & take their land & gold. Witchcraft & satanism is just the other side of the christian religion. It's like a dog's bite, you need an overbite & underbite in order for it to work. So they work together & in order for them to become the dominant religion they carved up the world between them. As they went around the world they destroyed a lot of knowledge & killed millions. No other religion has killed as many people in the name of their religion as the christians have. A pretty bloody religion. As the cult used to always say "by their fruits ye shall know them". Lumping everything you don't like or understand under one title is the same as the cults do around the world, just like our childhood in the cult. When they would say that everything out there is from the Devil. The world didn't know the name satan or the devil until the christians started conquering new lands.(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Saturday, December 17, 2005, 08:56 (Agree/Disagree?) When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. Desmond Tutu (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 21:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Not so very long ago, the earth numbered two thousand million inhabitants; five hundred million men, and one thousand five hundred million natives. the former had the word; the others had the use of it. Jean-Paul Sartre(reply to this comment)

From Otter Saturday, December 17, 2005, 09:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Right on. So true!(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, December 17, 2005, 08:52 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.elroy.net/ehr/vchip.html(reply to this comment)

From Otter Saturday, December 17, 2005, 09:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Interesting. Thanks.(reply to this comment)