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whatever

from whatever1037 - Thursday, November 25, 2004
accessed 4489 times

coincidence...or not

I'll be breif this time and try not to make so many mistakes with my spelling. My first article was about religions in America in the 1900's mixed with some other stuff etc. Even tough the article didnt praise or glorify Berg in any way thats what most people understood so i'm sorry about that.

Anyway this is an article about Mama Maria or Queen Maria or like i have recently learned Karen Zerby. right?
I wanted to compare the other day Zerby to the evil women of the bible and the first thing that came to my head is how she calls herself a queen. So what i did was look up the evil queens and women of the bible. Basically i had three candidates :

1. Delilah- Chick
2. Jezebel- Queen
3. Athaliah- Queen

I choose Jezebel which was wife to Ahab . Acording to the Bible Ahab ruled 22 years over Israel and then died in battle. After that she was also murdered. Characteristics of Jezebel: Well she was a pain in the ass. She had sombody falsely accused and killed so that Ahab could take over his vineyard. Everybody was scared of her and hated her. She unlike other queens is always manipulating her husband. She worships idols and makes everybody else do the same. If not you were charged with treason. Thats basically her profile but of course there's alot she did that i dont know.

When i heard that "Maria's" name was Karen Zerby i decided to investigate the meaning of that name.


Karen: Danish form of Katherine.
Katherine: Greek Form of "Aikaterine" .
The etymology is debated:

1-It could derive from the earlier Greek name Hekaterine, which came from hekateros "each of the two". Both sides.

2-It could derive from the name of the "goddess" HECATE.

3-It could be related to Greek aikia "torture"

4-Or it could be from a Coptic name meaning "my consecration of your name".

Also it is said that the Romans falsely derived it from Greek katharos "pure" and changed their spelling from Katerina to Katharina to reflect this. The name belonged to a 4th-century saint and martyr from Alexandria who was tortured on the famous Catherine wheel.

HECATE:Possibly derived from Greek hekas meaning "far off". In Greek mythology Hecate was a goddess (chick) associated with witchcraft, tombs, demons and the underworld. Sound familiar to Jezebel. I think so . Jezebel means: From the Hebrew 'Iyzebel which meant "not exalted". Or and: "Worshiper of Idols".

So basically it comes down to choice. I wasnt able to find anything on Zerby tough. If any of you guys know anything post it later. Well anyway comparing Jezebel to "Queen Whatever" isnt gonna be hard to do. You guys should know more details than me . I also saw how Ahab ruled 22 years in comparing the 26 that Berg "ruled". Maybe that doesnt mean anything who knows.

But as i was coming to the conclusion of my investigation i checked for Jezebel in the BIBLE and i noticed that the name appears in the New Testament in the book of Revelation. Its Jesus ,now glorified, and he's talking to a church in the city of Thy-a-ti'ra. It goes like this:

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy WORKS, and CHARITY, and SERVICE, and FAITH, and thy PATIENCE, and thy WORKS; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman JEZEBEL, which calleth herself a PROPHETESS, to TEACH and to SEDUCE my servants to commit FORNICATION, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her SPACE (time) TO REPENT of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I AM HE which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine(i wonder who those are lol), and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you NONE OTHER BURDEN.
25 BUT THAT WHICH YE ALREADY HAVE HOLD FAST TILL I COME.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Now this is just somthing i was tripin with the other day so i dont wanna feel like i'm "imposing" any of journeys into la la land on the good people of the real world ok. Anyway's you can always say that its an old book and that this passage is irelevant .


take care stevie

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from Anthony
Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 14:37

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
I bet Delilah & Jezebel were pretty cute, unlike Zerby.

(reply to this comment)
from evanman
Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 13:29

(Agree/Disagree?)
What does the Zerby name mean?
Last Name: Zerby


1. Americanized form of German Zerbe.

Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4

What does the Zerbe name mean?
Last Name: Zerbe


1. German: habitational name from a place near Magdeburg named Zerben.

Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4
(reply to this comment)
from moon beam
Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:44

(Agree/Disagree?)
You ask the question "Coincidence ..or not?"
I say coincidence and even then, not an impressive one.

I've got an impressive one tho, I'm engaged to some one with the same inituals as me, and his mom! and when he proposed he gave me his mother's engagment ring which would have been useless otherwise. No jokes about him trawling the phone book please ;)
(reply to this comment)
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 03:23

(Agree/Disagree?)
Thats not a coincidence. Its called fate.(reply to this comment
from neez
Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 03:04

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Well I for one can't wait for part III.

You pretty much covered eveything right there, but it's not like you have anything better to do. I guess the only thing left now is an extensive written analysis of the similarities of fabric styles worn by zerb & Noah's 2nd cousin Bob.
(reply to this comment)

From Noah's second cousin-back in the spirit
Tuesday, November 30, 2004, 11:03

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(
Agree/Disagree?)
"I will sue if anyone so much as thinks that that hag can out do me in style, and I've got heaven on my side. So there!! Noah may agree with you but his ass is in hell for leaving me to drown in the flood-no room in the ark? I ask you!! look where his precious goats and sheep got him in the end!! " (reply to this comment
From neez
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 15:18

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Ok I give up. Where did his precious goats and sheep get him in the end?? New Zealand?(reply to this comment
from shikaka
Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 19:52

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Theological humbug.

Halfway through this post I felt the overwhelming desire to take a power drill to my temple. This may or may not have been related to the bizarre reasoning displayed, or the convoluted "logic"? tying it all together.


(reply to this comment)

From whatever1037
Monday, November 29, 2004, 04:27

(Agree/Disagree?)
Let me see if i can spell this out for you , before you take a power drill up to your whatever . What I have done is express the way I see K.Z and HER movement using the Bible and posible definitions of her name . In other words : There's no "bizarre reasoning" or "convoluted logic" . Now are you out of danger ???
(reply to this comment
From Baxter
Tuesday, November 30, 2004, 01:59

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Do you know what this is?

This is you still not letting go. I'm sorry to say it like this but, mate, you're still in the Family whether or not you left or think you left. This whole article is based on a VERY Berg method of analysing the spiritual significance of an object by exploring any or all possible direct or indirect connections in jargon. Cue 'Oplexicon', etc. What exactly are you trying to prove here, that Zerby is bad? We all know already, analysing her name is not going to either confirm or refute the fact that we all hate her. As for the rest of it, you've gotta get past the idea that your world is rife with evil spirits and mind-sucking demons that will destroy; because if you don't, they will do so by way of your paranoia. That's what shikaka means by bizzarre reasoning. If I say this any more, I'm gonna get blue in the face, THE BIBLE IS ONLY SIGNIFICANT TO PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN IT! It works just like every other ideological or political instrument.

I don't know if you were a whiz at bible class of what, but, man, there is A WHOLE WORLD of incredible literature out there JUST WAITING for you to find it! Please, for your own sake, diversify your reading (or else go to seminary school or something!) (reply to this comment

from random thoughts
Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 16:53

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

dude, you actually remind me alot of myself at one time. From my perspective, it seems like you're trying to understand why Berg and Zerby did what they did, and you're trying very hard to think outside the box and analyse "it" from every angle you can think of to eventually come to some logical reason for what caused them to do what they did. I would guess we would do that because understanding Berg and Zerby would in some way help us understand & deal with our own past lives, since from birth our lives were so intertwined with the "Zergy" letters.

While I dont feel I have reached "the" definitive absolute answer and understanding of all things previously mentioned, probably the most significant event that helped me truly think outside the narrow confines of my upbringing was going to college. Honestly I don't know what you feel about college, I'd grown up with TF crap about college being a big waste of time and "the MO letters make us so much wiser than those higher education fools" and I really did think going would be a waste of time, but I decided to try it out (after all the GED & SAT studying).

I would recommend taking a couple of courses in History (in particular American History since you appear to be interested in what historical contexts influenced Berg and Zerby), and a couple courses in Religion. I know the last part probably makes you think "what the hell, religion, I probably know the bible better than those professors of Divinity" because it did to me. I found two things though, first I was an automatic professor's favorite because of the verses I could spout (just tell them yr a preacher's kid); second, I saw the verses I already knew in different contexts, through understanding the cultural shifts at different times when the Bible was written (understanding of cultures seems to largely be based on the archeological record, an exhaustive record that was pretty much ignored by TF's supreme truth).

In any case, good luck on your journey and I do believe that as you read more, your opinions and understanding of things will probably be modified, as mine have.
(reply to this comment)

from lisa
Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 13:43

(Agree/Disagree?)

Your connection is tenuous, your reasoning absurd, and your premise insane. Honestly that is the biggest load of crap I have heard in a long time.
(reply to this comment)

from thepersoniamnow
Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 08:10

(Agree/Disagree?)
that is alot of info huh...
(reply to this comment)
from Fish
Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 04:40

(Agree/Disagree?)
Who the hell are you? If you’re an ex member you sure got too many bonks on the head. I mean really was there a point to that load of garbage? Do you even know anything about the bible? Or religion? Or philosophy? Or history? Or anything??? You sound like an ass with a search engine. Go listen to some FTTs.
(reply to this comment)
From Wolf
Sunday, November 28, 2004, 10:13

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
The sooner you ignore this turd, the sooner he'll go away.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Sunday, November 28, 2004, 08:11

(Agree/Disagree?)
You sound pissed. I'm guessing you're still in the family ?
If you are let me tell you i have nothing against you. As for your leadership i cant say the same . As for my knowledge of the bible , i'd say i know pretty much . But time will tell.(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Tuesday, November 30, 2004, 12:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
Little bible reading pimple, are you aware that you're a moron? Nobody here is still in the Family except people who think like you. If you look back with nostalgia and you defend them, then you've never left. (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 03:22

(Agree/Disagree?)
I think he's old enough to answer that question on his own. And i'm not defending anybody. Do you have somthing agaisnt people still in TF ? If not what in the .... are you talking about ?(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 09:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes little shit, I do have something against people in TF. Most of them should be thrown in jail or shot, if not for actual crimes then for total insanity. And what's with the bleep? What's the matter, are you too....... .... to ..... ... you little.... ..... your mother ...... .... ...son of a .....!!!(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 13:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
Well , sorry for my wild assumption. On one hand you're saying that if I look back with nostalgia (which I dont and dont know where you got that from) then I've never left right? But then you turn around and look back with hate , how then are you "letting go" ? And as for your judging i would rather a 100 times God judge them than let them get off so easy. Get it ?(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 16:49

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

One thing you Christians (TF is famous for this) refuse to understand is that when you are talking with a non believer, statements or arguements based on god or the bible are moot and pointless to us because WE DON'T BELIEVE HE EXISTS!!!! You might as well be telling us that the monster under your bed is the proof behind your beliefs. TF would never be brought to any kind of justice if we left it in the hands of idiots who believe that our Big Daddy in the sky is gonna make everything sweet and pretty and punish the naughty Zerby in the Lake of fire with the Antichrist etc..etc....

It's nice that you think you're all big and grown up now but it's when you get in touch with reality that you'll finally become a big boy.(reply to this comment

From lisa
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 09:11

(Agree/Disagree?)


Are you saying that all christians are idiotic children who are out of touch with reality? Are you really arrogant enough to presume that you know the only truth, and there is no possibility of any other answers?(reply to this comment

From Shaka
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 11:59

(Agree/Disagree?)

Quite the opposite. I'm saying most Christians are so set in their beliefs that they will not listen to logic and refuse to think outside the box of their own doctrines. Since they are so sure that their dogmatic views are the one and only truth, they try to use them when arguing with people who don't share the same views. When you use God in an arguement with no tangible proof to back him up, you come off looking like an idiotic child who's out of touch with reality. Clear?

I do know Christians who leave themselves open to the possiblility that they may be wrong as I, being an agnostic, also do. That is the key to finding the truth, whatever it may be. (reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 15:24

(Agree/Disagree?)
How are you different than that discription ?
We belive by faith in God. You belive by Faith there isnt one.
You say we refuse to listen to your logic ? Scince when do you hold the standards for logic or any Atheist for that matter. Atheists are trying to do the same thing christians do. Set the standard. The diference is you guys get pissed off when we do it. The heart doesnt lie. The mind does. We hold to our heart just the way you hold to your head. You guys try to make logic with the little you've seen. We belive what we feel. You guys dont belive in anything. Everything is one big Coincidence. Just look at your Holy Big Bang. Just how reasonable is that ?

Our holy creation: Something bigger than our egocentric self Created it.

And then choice.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 10:59

(Agree/Disagree?)
It's not about setting any standards it's about exploring other points of view and then making choices based on a wider understanding, if you limit yourself you are not on an equal playing field.
I always hated that song "Do it cause Daddy said so, cause Daddy knows best" up untill about 8 thats okay for the most part, but part of growing up is for the child to learn to think and discover for themselves. (reply to this comment
From moon beam
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 11:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
PS Most people here have "seen" it from your point of view for most of our childhood, so I doubt that anything you could say about christianity, the bible , Jesus, is anything we haven't thought about, lived and considered already. (reply to this comment
From Baxter
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 04:11

(Agree/Disagree?)

The Heart doesn't lie? THE HEART DOESN'T LIE? Will you please listen to your self, you mong? You think your emotions are better medium of perception than your logical assets? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

I'm gonna have to dissect this one fully...

What you.... unsurprisingly, exasperatingly.... have failed ...yet again.....to grasp, is that there is nothing holy to an atheist. Your subjective reasoning cannot be applied here. The difference is that outside of christianity, other people are free to consider other possible answers - it is coincidental that most draw a blank with question of the christian god. It stands to reason for most of us non-christians that, from our point of view, you are be simplistic, reactionary and obsoletist because you simply cannot contribute to the argument other than by regurgitating dogma. Nobody believes in the 'Holy' Big Bang theory- in the Academic world, NOTHING is sacred. The 'Holy' big bang has been contested and disputed and indeed it will continue to be so until it is either refuted or proven. Until you can provide a relevant or coherent counter-argument, your accusations are purely arbitrary and empty.

For Fuck's sake, stop thinking that because you think one way, the whole world must follow suite!(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 14:53

(Agree/Disagree?)
Baxter to fail to grasp that my posts are MY OPINION. Not Universal Laws.(reply to this comment
From
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 16:07

(
Agree/Disagree?)
It would be okay if it were just your "opinion" but the bible doesnt say it's "an" opinion but the one and only truth. (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 17:53

(Agree/Disagree?)
In my opinion it is. Get it MY OPINION.(reply to this comment
From shikaka
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 23:20

(Agree/Disagree?)

Most people with a triple-digit intelligence quotient can quickly deduct the fact behind your trite premise:

"The heart doesnt lie." We hold to our heart just the way you hold to your head. You guys try to make logic with the little you've seen. We believe what we feel."

The heart is a mindless fucking blood pump that has not produced a single thought or emotion since the beginning of time. Perhaps if you stopped trying to think with your mindless fucking blood pump, you would be suddenly able to produce coherent arguments.

I may be overthinking this one. But basing your arguments on vomit-inducing sentimentalism makes me grab for the power drill.(reply to this comment

From Shaka
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 16:08

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Ooookayy. You sound so brainwashed it's pathetic. I might as well be reading an old MO letter. It's the same old shit. Let's take apart your moronic dribble piece by piece. You ask how I, an agnostic, am different from what I described. I am different from you because I don't pretend to know the meaning of life or what happens after we die. Nobody knows for sure and anyone who pretends to know is kidding themselves. You say we believe by faith that there is no god. Wrong. I believe by what I can see and touch that there is no god, at least no all-powerful one. I base my beliefs on science and logic. You base yours on traditions and ideas forged in primitive eras long passed. Agnostics do not try and set a standard for everyone to believe in like religions do. We merely question obsolete theories long accepted as fact by the masses who are too afraid to believe anything else.

We get pissed off? Pick up a fucking history book! Religion is responsible for almost all wars and massacres in history. Even in your "holy" bible God routinely murders anyone who opposes or even criticizes him. That's the role model you follow. You don't believe what you feel. You believe what Mommy and Daddy felt when they ran off to live their lives as bums and have since drilled into your twisted little mind their idea of morality. We trust in what we have discovered for ourselves. You know only what you have been told. There is not an original thought in your servile mind. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself in other ideas before settling on one that you take to be absolute truth.(reply to this comment

From Wolf
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 10:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude, I think you might have your terms mixed up. You say “I believe by what I can see and touch that there is no god”. That’s called atheism. An agnostic is someone who believes it’s impossible for the human mind to know whether or not there is a God.

You say you base your beliefs on science. Science shows us that God is not necessary as a part of our day-to-day lives, that nature functions on its own. It has given us a plausible theory for nature’s evolution without a god or divine creator. IMO these and other scientific theories and facts don’t make the existence of a divine being less likely; just less relevant.

I also beg to differ with you on one more issue: it’s not religion that’s responsible for wars and killing, it’s dogmatism. True, religion is often a focus of dogmatism, but people also get dogmatic about (and fight wars over) many non-religious issues. And didn’t you say in another post that you approve of war and killing?

Mr. 1037, don’t get the idea that I approve of your juvenile slobber just because I’m contradicting Shaka.(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 10:24

(Agree/Disagree?)
All very good points. I am an agnostic but the older I get I'm beginning to lean more toward athieism. I am not 100% sure there is no god, but like you said I don't find him important enough to live my life trying to please him. I didn't say that religion/dogmatism (I throw the two in the same category, where there's one you'll find the other) is responsible for ALL wars, I said MOST. I am well aware of the wars and conquests fought for non-religious issues. And no, I don't believe that all wars and killing are right. I just support this one. If you want to get on that thread we can start one in All My Politics. It would be fun to see what Mr 1037 thinks about world events. I'll bet it will be word for word what Berg drooled in his alcohol induced rantings.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 02:19

(Agree/Disagree?)
You're not sure there's a God ?
Like I said before you dont have a clue of what "that" is. How then do you know if you're pleasing him or not ? Not even the bible states completly what He is.

But I'll give you my opinion (taken from the bible). He is a Spirit.
Now you have to ask yourself if you belive in Spirits and the Spirit World. If you dont you can always pay a visit to the spirit world using Astral Projection. If you already have Astral Projected and still dont belive in the Spirit world would you mind giving me your opinion on what that is ?

And as for politics i would probably sound like Micheal Moore.(reply to this comment
From JohnnieWalker
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 07:03

(Agree/Disagree?)
Is Santa Claus a spirit too?(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 05:13

(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, God is a spirit. That explains everything. Thanks for the accurate description.
What the fuck is a spirit? It would be amusing to see if you can describe a spirit for us. You’re welcome to approach the subject from any angle you wish: molecular structure, morphological traits, etc. You can also use visual and audio aids (time to pull out that old photo of the angel photographed from an airplane). One limitation: your description must be testable and based on something other than “the Bible says so”.(reply to this comment
From Baxter
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 04:15

(Agree/Disagree?)

Again, assuming that other people think and must behave as you! 'how do you know if you're pleasing him or not?' ?

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE PLEASING HIM OR NOT? answer the question, moron!

You don't know that there is a god ,why don't you just admit this? Astral Projection? WTF? (reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 14:22

(Agree/Disagree?)
I know what God is. I dont have every single detail but i get my opinion from the bible i already told you. As for Astral Projection why dont you use your internet conection and some curiosity.(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 05:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
Astral projection is what people often claim happens during NDE’s: an out-of-body experience. Some people claim they can have out-of-body experiences without being near death. I researched this topic and I think there may be something to it, because people have been able to accurately describe what’s going on in another room, and people have correctly recalled conversations that took place while they were physically dead. However, like many phenomenon that can’t currently be explained by science, proving that astral projection is possible would not prove that there is a God, it would only prove that mankind doesn’t know everything yet (something which any intelligent person will readily admit). (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 14:34

(Agree/Disagree?)
Wolf i myself have done astral projection. We not only "claim"
to have seen what goes on in another room. There is a whole other world out there. The Spirit world. And if science wants to explain how I can have a conversation with a friend of mine in the other world come back and the next day be totally acurate on what we spoke about is not the issue. You would have to admit that there is another world. Somthing people have already been calling the Spirit world for ages. And get this coincidence i havent met an atheist that has astral projected they all belive in some kind of god.(reply to this comment
From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 05:19

(Agree/Disagree?)

LOL! Wow! This thread is getting more hillarious every day! Actually I believe science does have a term for what you are experiencing: psychosis. No doubt the effects of a lifetime of the insane dillusions we were brainwashed with as kids. I just hope you can snap out of it and the sooner the better!(reply to this comment

From Wolf
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 00:05

(Agree/Disagree?)
You mean if I try really hard I might be able to hear your dumb ass talking to me while I sleep?


Sounds like a nightmare.(reply to this comment
From shikaka
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 16:47

(Agree/Disagree?)

Very interesting. Something similar comes to mind that I think many people are familiar with. Commonly known as "anal projection", it occurs when one, like you, for example, is fed far too many prunes. The schphincter dilates, and sprays large quantities of liquid faeces. Sometimes when the planets are aligned, and venus is in conjunction with uranus, you will find that you can communicate with friends in the other world, but only while defecating. (reply to this comment

From neez
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 15:16

(
Agree/Disagree?)

So let me get this straight.. You Anal Projected yourself into a parrallel universe where you have a new best friend that you have lenghty discussions about life with.

& your proof that Anal Projection works is that you can remember all the conversations you had with your imaginary parrallel freind the next day.(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 17:51

(Agree/Disagree?)
No. Astral Projection is how you separate your soul or spirit from your body while you sleep into the Spirit World.
If you had any idea of how it worked we could schedule to meet on the other side which i doubt you would know. But if you did we would have a conversation and then i would post it here in the morning and you could see for yourself that its excactly what we talked about. Get it ?
(reply to this comment
From lisa
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 00:32

(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok prove it! I totally beleave it's posible,untill it's proven otherwise so do it. "teach" me how come have a chat one night and then post it. Prove it works or accept it doesn't(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 07:56

(Agree/Disagree?)
I wouln't hold my breath.LOL

Science doesn't tend to study a subjective opinion.
I don't think its that remarkable for humans to have a 3d view of themselves and their suroundings and in a sleep state we are more prone to being receptive in that way, If you think at how we evolved, we needed, to be able to watch for predators.
Many people have fantastic brains that can see the world in numbers, photographic memory, learn to play a piece of music after one hearing, etc..
But to connect it to christianity or any spiritual significance for it's purpose and meaning is misleading and erronious. I bet plenty of these self confessed, "prophets" have made a few bucks selling their "wisdom" to the masses.
For one, being a christian and one who believes in astral projection etc is not combatable. one believes in incarnation the other does not. Unless you are now saying the bible doesn't tell you all you need to know after all. (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 13:46

(Agree/Disagree?)
Your telling me the Bible doesnt talk about a Spirit world ?
Please. The thing is the Bible odesnt call it astral projection. Thats why most christians dont belive in astral projection. They're couldnt care less about visiting the Spirit World. Most are happy with the need-to-know stuff. But the Bible does talk about it. Maybe you should just read it more often. The bible talks about eveythng you just need to know where to look.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 08:18

(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/thought.html(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 14:03

(Agree/Disagree?)
MB the page is really good. I had never seen this one before but its very cool.(reply to this comment
From live_fast-die_young
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 10:42

(Agree/Disagree?)

Interesting link. I just read a couple articles on that site & was amazed at the description of astral projection...I do that all the time!!! Well, at least in part. I always thought of it as somehow getting stuck inbetween waking & sleeping, with loud buzzing sounds & sometimes voices or odd sounds. Only once was I able to actually 'move' without it waking me up, a long time ago. While in that state I rolled over in bed & stared up at my ceiling for about 20secs, completely coherent, until a freaky shrill scream behind me made me decide to wake myself up. I just told myself no more late-night X-files.

Here's the shocker Steven, I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD!! Vibrations, energy, yes. I believe that there are vast regions yet undiscovered within our human mind & if we were able to understand & use them we would be able to do so much more....and I think many non-religious people would agree. But to say that the experience of "astral projection" or "lucid dreaming" somehow endorses the belief in your Christian God is just plain obtuse!!(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 13:51

(Agree/Disagree?)
Didnt i say i wasnt trying to prove his existence anymore ?
However i am sorry for presuming that everyone who has experienced OBE belives in God ok?(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 03:09

(Agree/Disagree?)
Are you intrested in knowing about Astral Projection ?
You can search the Web. There are numerous web pages with all the information, excercises, explaining far better than me how to do it. If you are a girl and i think by your name you are it shouldnt be that hard. I say in a week you could do it. But thats your choice. I dont belive in handing you a loaded gun. As for the metting up I have to admit it isnt as easy as i made it sound. It takes alot of experience but is posible with alot of luck and perfect timing. Also i dont know where in the heck you live. And public places are most crowded. Mostly with bad spirits.(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 21:03

(Agree/Disagree?)
“Astral Projection is how you separate your soul or spirit from your body while you sleep”.

Most people call that dreaming. But I’m fine with you calling it whatever you want, if it makes you happy. I believe you when you say you can communicate with others during your sleep. I think sleep does bring us closer to the energy that connects all living things (whatever it is).
Why do you think the interesting things you see while you dream prove God’s existence?(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 03:21

(Agree/Disagree?)
I take it from your article you dont know what "Lucid Dreaming" is either.
I'll explain. Its awakening your consious mind in your dream and making you very lucid giving you absolute control over your dream thus alowing you to do whatever you like. You can fly , have sex with the girl of your dreams (if you are very experienced), play magic tricks, look into your memory etc. I've also done this and thats how i know the diference between dream and OBE. You can also research that in the internet. Now that you seem to hate bliss ignorance.(reply to this comment
From Joe H
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 18:30

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

How the hell do you have sex with someone if you're out of your body? And if you say "Jesus does it every day with people in the Family" I won't deign to respond.(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 09:58

(Agree/Disagree?)
I didnt say in AP. LD and AP are different. Havent you had sex in a dream? The difference is in a LD its actually YOU. You awake your consciuos mind in your dream land. So basically you manipulate the dream and know that its a dream at the same time.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 10:21

(Agree/Disagree?)
But that is unique to you, a subjective experience, which doesn't prove the "spirit world" either. i.e The girl you had sex with in your dream will have no knowladge of your visit.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 15:57

(Agree/Disagree?)
Thats the difference with a dream and AP. Understand ? In a dream the girl is a creation of my imagination. On the other hand in AP i've done a few trips with my brother into the Spirit World. Imagine the movie of the matrix. I get in , and then i wait for him to get up. Also vice-versa. But mostly i do trips on my own.(reply to this comment
From Doh!
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 17:51

(
Agree/Disagree?)
The Matrix!!! Oh, well everything makes sense now... LMAO!(reply to this comment
From neez
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 16:42

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Your just a walking talking Google arent you.

"You can fly , have sex with the girl of your dreams (if you are very experienced), play magic tricks, look into your memory etc"

Are you saying ppl can't do that stuff in real life? You should try it sometime.

Perhaps you can put your google skills to good use & look up things like:

- Airplanes

- How to pickup(real life) chicks

- Do it yourself magic kits(generally for ages 12 & under)

- Memory loss & other mental issues(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 17:51

(Agree/Disagree?)
When did i say you couldnt do that in real life?(reply to this comment
From neez
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 20:37

(
Agree/Disagree?)

So if u agree that all these things are readily available in the real world. Then whats the point of all this astral bullshit?

Btw, do you feel like lighting up a smoke after having imaginary sex.(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 09:47

(Agree/Disagree?)
Why dont we go back as to why the astral BS started.
I was having a conversation with an atheist. I said if you belive in only what you see and touch whats your opinion on AP which is a world where you can see and touch everything. I asked HIS opinion. Get it?
I got some opinions already , mostly from people who know or have no experience in that matter. In other words there're making fools out of themselves.
Why not , if intrested , do some reaserch get some Exp. and then come and talk about it. If not just drop the subject and admit theres a Spirit World. Unless you can prove me and everybody else on the internet , not including all religions (who happen to belive in God and the Spirit World) are just lying.

That would really show your "open mind" right?

(reply to this comment
From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:15

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Well shit, you really got me there.

So following on that logic.. If you can prove to me (& yes you can even paste from google) that pink elephants with green & blue striped trunks don't exist then I'll concede that you have been right about everything.(reply to this comment

From Vicky
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:24

(Agree/Disagree?)
You like the pink elephants analogy, don't you! I do like the addition of the striped trunks, I have to say... ; )(reply to this comment
From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:33

(
Agree/Disagree?)
What can I say. Evolution doing its thing.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:21

(Agree/Disagree?)
How many people in the world belive in pink elephants compared with the millions thats belive in the SW ?
But thats not the case. I'm practically giving you the formula to seing elephants in pink and much more. Its somthing you do if you chosse to do. I can only show you the door.(reply to this comment
From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:25

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Interesting, so the astral world is full of these rare creatures.

I was actually hoping for some real life proof but thats probably expecting too much from you.(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:33

(Agree/Disagree?)
No its not full of pink elephants. Are you just playing aroud or do you really not understand what i'm trying to say.(reply to this comment
From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:37

(
Agree/Disagree?)

It's a bit of both really.(reply to this comment

From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:39

(
Agree/Disagree?)
& I'm still waiting for your proof.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 16:47

(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay. I wont deny that pink elephants exist. Now can you show me where to find them? Ahhh no you cant

http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/prove.html

Check that out if you like.(reply to this comment
From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 18:26

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Whoa.. you found a website that talks about astral-bs. Didn't see that one coming.

You're really making this to easy but here goes.. A couple websites that talk about pink elephants.. Enjoy:

http://www.gpf-comics.com/fun/stories/pinkelephant.html

http://fusionanomaly.net/pinkelephants.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6378/elephant.html

p.s. I take back the remark about pink elephants having striped trunks. After having researched the subject I now know that pink elephants are entirely pink from head to toe & that to think otherwise would be well.. silly(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 18:42

(Agree/Disagree?)
I have to give you 2 thumbs for that one.(reply to this comment
From neez
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 19:00

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Please keep your thumbs.. You'll need them if you ever decide to make yourself useful in society.(reply to this comment

From
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 06:38

(
Agree/Disagree?)
The term your looking for is "remote veiwing". (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 13:32

(Agree/Disagree?)
No "remote veiwing" is somthing totally diferent.(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 04:04

(Agree/Disagree?)
I fly, have sex, relive memories, turn water into whiskey and beat up stupid punks like you in my dreams without any special techniques, but thanks anyway.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 02:49

(Agree/Disagree?)
Wolf i dont know if you've noticed but this article has come from KZ to alot of stuff. 1 of those things was God. But i'm not trying to prove his existence anymore. And its not like i was oe like i even can. What i'm doing NOW is talking about the Spirit world. Something i cant prove either because you have to see it for yourself. So dont say i'm trying to prove God ok.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 14:48

(Agree/Disagree?)
Ohh and i have to add. You can fly when you astral project.(reply to this comment
From neez
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 16:48

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Do you get frequent flyer points?(reply to this comment

From shikaka
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 16:54

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
no doubt. during anal projection, the sheer velocity of the diarrhea would provide more than adequate thrust. (reply to this comment
From moon beam
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 10:50

(Agree/Disagree?)
Wolf, that article you wrote a while back was a cracking read, well done. I'm very intrigued by these "phenomina", esp. when people describe sightings and sounds in places described as haunted, old buildings graveyards, churches etc. I don't believe in ghosts , as it seems more likely that it is sub-sonic disorientation,
It would be fair to say that people who believe ghost stories are people who believe bible ones too.
Anyone here had any spooky "unexplainable" occurances or the like?
(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 12:49

(Agree/Disagree?)
Nice to know that somebody enjoyed that article.

I have seen future events before they happened on several occasions. I wouldn’t consider it “spooky”, but I would put it under the category of unexplainable, at least by man’s current knowledge. You may think I’m bragging here, but I don’t really care. I know other people who claim to have seen events before they happened, and I believe them because it happened to me.
Maybe those who have experienced something “abnormal” (without the help of drugs or other psychotropic influences) have an easier time believing others who claim to have experienced the paranormal. In any case, I do believe that ghosts exist in some form. Perhaps they’re not actually a remnant of the deceased person, but rather a part of “the force field”, “life force”, or whatever you want to call it. I’m not going to get into theorizing about what it is, because I don’t know. But I know there is more than just our mind: something connects life, the past, the future, all energy and all matter. Maybe one of these days somebody will figure out what it is. Until then we’ll continue to hear plenty of “ghost stories”.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 13:24

(Agree/Disagree?)
I would love it if you were to expond on your experience. (reply to this comment
From Wolf
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 22:18

(Agree/Disagree?)
A basic description of my experiences: I see something like a “freeze frame” or a photograph of a scene I will eventually see days, weeks, months or years later. The prevision is always exactly like ordinary human vision: the object of my focus is clear, everything else is less clear.

My most recent experience happened about two years ago. I saw a glimpse of myself looking into a bank window in what was clearly an old European town. The Euro to dollar exchange rate was 0.93. When I saw this glimpse I thought “that’s odd” because at the time a dollar cost about 1.2 Euros. Then, several months later I was going down a walking in street in Dublin, and I looked into a bank window and sure enough the rate was 0.93.

Another time, when I was in the London teen home (in 1988), I saw an advance glimpse of the demerit chart. I saw that Heidi had 6 demerits in one day and thought “that’s strange” because she was a good little girl that almost never got demerits, let alone 6 in one day. Whaddya know, several months later the infamously anal “Mary Malaysian” gave her 6 demerits in a day.

None of my similar experiences had any global significance, and in no case did I see something that happened to somebody else in advance (I saw the scene exactly as I was to see it in the future). So all these experiences prove to me is that time is relevant to our perception. I don’t believe in destiny, I think it’s more likely that time is like any other dimension: any object has width, height, breadth, and time. Just as the beginning of an object’s height exists simultaneously to its end, I think the beginning of an object’s “time” or existence exists simultaneously to its end. Imagine if we could only see one point in an object’s height, width or breadth. Humans are normally limited to a perception of time that involves seeing objects at one point in their total time span. However, IMO everything we will see in the future is stored in our minds, because in a sense, it has already happened and we just don’t know it yet. IMO we are most likely to see future events that will leave a special impression on us, just as we are most likely to remember remarkable past events.(reply to this comment
From Vicky
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 10:55

(Agree/Disagree?)

I have had many experiences like this, except I wouldn't describe them as freeze-frame, more like a glimpse of a short space in time, so it might be a brief scenario or one sentence that someone says, or something someone does. It's hard to explain. It used to happen quite frequently when I was a child, and the last time it happened was about a year ago. I don't usually 'see' the scene whilst awake though, I tend to dream it, and then when it happens again it's like the two images become super-imposed in my mind's eye, in a sense.

When I was nine-ten I went through a phase of 'knowing' who was phoning before the phone was answered, and usually it was when people who did not normally phone us did so. The name of the person or a picture of their face would pop into my mind for no apparent reason. After a while i started consciously trying to guess when the phone would ring, but it never worked when I did that. (reply to this comment

From Joe H
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 13:25

(Agree/Disagree?)
Does anyone else think all these "Impossible becomes Possible" stories are a little too reminiscent of the Good Thots book? Maybe us flat-landers could break away and start our own website at ActuallyMovingOn.org.(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 20:40

(Agree/Disagree?)

Dude, if you think life is limited to processes that can be fully explained by science, you’re just limiting your own potential. What if you thought the same 100 years ago? Many things that were thought to be “magic” or mystical 100 years ago have been fully explained since.

Besides, we’re answering a question here, so unless you’re the one who asked the question kindly piss off.
(reply to this comment
From Vicky
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 13:34

(Agree/Disagree?)
WhatEVER!!! I don't read anything into these experiences, I don't believe they prove anything about anything, I don't have any opinion on why or how they happened. For all I know (or care) these experiences could all have been complete fabrications by the mind of a precocious young girl with an overactive imagination - Obviously that's not how I remember it, but granted, it is a possibility. I'm SO not into the paranormal and I am rather insulted at your insinuation that I am 'returning to the vomit', so to speak.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Thursday, December 09, 2004, 07:29

(Agree/Disagree?)
Another interresting aspect of the "mind playing tricks" is Hypnotism, though I have never been Hypnotised myself, I do find it fasinating. (reply to this comment
From Wolf
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 11:30

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, it seems like conscious effort blocks the subconscious.(reply to this comment
From The Pedantic Prick
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 22:23

(Agree/Disagree?)
"Prevision"? Methinks someone has seen Minority Report one too many times.(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 11:25

(Agree/Disagree?)

Funny, I actually thought you said you’re pro-war in general, because it keeps the population down … maybe that was someone else. I’m also for population control, but I prefer other methods. I’m tired of arguing the Iraq war, though. Now that Junior has a second term all the arguing in the world won’t do shit anyway. I can’t resist the temptation, though, to say that Junior is a great example of religious dogmatism.(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 20:39

(Agree/Disagree?)
lol, I think that was someone else. If I said that I was either drunk or I was just being anal to piss off some liberals (Luv ya Haunted, frmrjoyish). But I honestly don't remember saying that.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 03:04

(Agree/Disagree?)
First of all you dont even belive life has a meaning. Like i said before you belive in "the big coincidence". Thats your BASE.

If its true that you dont belive by Faith (and it isnt) but with your eyes that God doesnt exist. Then actually you're saying you dont belive in God YET. Right? please.

But wait there's more. You dont even know what you're looking for. Do you ? Wait you dont even know what He is. And to top that off your eyes will never come across everything in the entire universe . Will they ? I mean doesnt your own science and logic say you will NOT get to see EVERYTHING ? Is that why you say you dont and never will belive.

Does science know what God IS to deny his existence ?
And as for your logic Get this in your "open mind" your whole religion is baised on somthing not LOGICAL (Big Bang).

The world created itself ? How logical is that ?
and on top of that you said " Nobody knows " and " we dont pretend to know" and "anybody who does is KIDDING themselves". Isnt then it incredible how You and all scientists have been kidding yourselves all along. But acording to WHO ? Not me. You.

And as for morals. Can you an Athiest , that doesnt belive in anything belive in Good and Evil ?
(reply to this comment
From Baxter
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 04:27

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Genius! Genius!! Fucking Genius!!!

Mongchild, have you ever been to space? Have you ever seen the earth's globe? then how do you know the earth is round? You cannot by your own experience or knowledge prove it, but there is a basic demonstrable logic that substanciates it. you may not have seen it YET, but you have to accept the possiblity that indeed the earth might very well be round every time you take a round-world plane trip!

Just because I have never seen (and probably never will see) a black hole does not mean that I negate the possibility that they might exist, despite the fact that astonomy is not my field and I have little or no relevent knowledge in that area. I accept the possibility of their existence because someone else has presented what appears to me to be a reasonable argument, despite the fact that there is little or no way I can ever personally validate what he says except by way of someone else. But what I choose is to keep my options open, not to believe because I simply like one Idea. I accept the possibility that God might exist, but I do not place any of my personal hopes, aspirations or dreams on someting I cannot prove is there!

As for good and evil, again we have another example of deic anthropomorphism. You consider the possibility of god, but then you give him a human face! Ask yourself the question, At what point does the universe and the inherent course of nature take a human face? When does the natural world act in accordance with human logic and sentimental reason? If your god made the world, why would he make it contradict him to his face?(reply to this comment

From Fish
Wednesday, December 08, 2004, 07:25

(Agree/Disagree?)
Well said Arthur, however, I think it’s clear that the world takes on whatever face you as an individual want it to. We all see what we want to see. You are obviously going for the thelemic “adjustment” versus “justice” argument. I am currently inclined toward the former ( probably due to my dislike for the whole Rom 8:28 nonsense ) None the less, if I were to go back even a few months I would still be swearing by the later. My point is whether or not the world is humane is entirely in the eye of the beholder.(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 10:13

(Agree/Disagree?)

Dude, everything you're saying is the same shit I would spout from the ages of 6 to 12 to "goats" that I would run into in the parking lot while slaving away to make a living for the lazy motherfuckers who crammed that crap down my throat in the first place. It was when I turned 12 that I woke up and realised how stupid and brainwashed I sounded and just stopped. So don't try that simplistic garbage on anyone here. You're not going to find anyone here very "sheepy".

When I made my choice of what to believe, I considered what sounded more reasonable: The world evolved over millions if not billions of years (and yes, carbon dating and modern instruments prove that the world is NOT 6,000 years old like you bible thumpers think), OR the world was created in a week with a flip of a magic wand by some being who chooses to remain anonymous and leaves it up to his creations to fight it out on what exactly he is.

I don't pretend to be 100% sure of what will happen after I die, and frankly, I don't care. That's the difference between you and me. But I refuse to spend this life in fear of pissing off an ancient father figure who will send me to the fucking lake of fire. That's your logic. And as for the morality of athiests and agnostics, the ones of us who choose to lead a good life do so because we want to, not because we're too afraid not to.(reply to this comment

From frmrjoyish
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 06:20

(Agree/Disagree?)

"You and all scientists have been kidding yourselves all along"...Do yourself a favor and learn just the remedial basics about mathematics, biology, and physics before you attempt to debase them. You need to learn to swim in the kiddie pool before you jump in the deep end.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining things to you that you will have a snowball's chance in hell of understanding but for all of our sake's, please, enough with this simplistic ignorant babble! I admire your tenacity, but enough is enough already!(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 11:42

(Agree/Disagree?)
dude did you not read the post ?
Not acording to ME. To him.
His own mouth contradicts him.(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 12:11

(Agree/Disagree?)
Congratulations, frmrjoyish. The little punk has given you an honorary wiener. Now you can enjoy the best of both worlds.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Friday, December 03, 2004, 12:28

(Agree/Disagree?)
Atheists can be confusing...look

Christian= God and the Bible
My Opinion= God , Bible

Atheist= Shaka and his Mind
Your Opinion= You , your Mind

So when we argue or state somthing its irelevant? Or incoherent? right. Cause you dont believe in my opinion.

But i dont belive in "Shaka Almighty". So is your mind and opinion incoherent ? And Irelevant ?

If so I'm not right. But then neither are you. 50-50 Diference ? Some atheists turn blue when I write a verse.
I sigh.



(reply to this comment
From Baxter
Tuesday, December 07, 2004, 04:33

(Agree/Disagree?)

No, but you expect us to fall down and worship 'Steven Almighty'! You refuse to consider anyone else's opinion, and indeed you have not throughout. not once have you satisfactorily contested a single argument presented by anyone else, accept to yourself. You have flatly refused to accept that you perspective is anything other than the absolute and undeniable truth. I don't care whether you said you were or not, your own verbatim betrays your position. And when someone else contests your opinion, you simply accuse them of what you yourself are guilty of.

You are a wearisome soul!(reply to this comment

From Nick
Friday, December 03, 2004, 13:41

(Agree/Disagree?)

Did anyone else have trouble understanding that???

(reply to this comment

From Shaka
Friday, December 03, 2004, 14:36

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Oh I understood it perfectly. Loosely translated, it reads:

"I'm so incredibly stupid that I've swallowed every piece of shit crammed down my innocent throat since I could crawl. My only thoughts and beliefs are ones that have been taught to me and I parrot them incessantly. I claim to hate the Family but still listen to what my parents teach me even though they were retarded enough to join a cult (that I really do hate, please believe me). But I'm happy I grew up in said cult anyway because I now speak four languages, even though I still don't have a basic grasp of the English language."

"I am unable to face reality so I cling to the notion that if I keep spouting nonsense about an all-powerful god, I will be a superhero after I die. Yaaayyy! And who are all those people you were talking about?"

Yup, that's pretty much all I could make out from that gibberish.(reply to this comment

From geo
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 05:09

(Agree/Disagree?)

Nice translation,

Yeah we should probably just ignore him but stupid people can be so amusing, like watching a dog chase his tail.(reply to this comment

From Wolf
Friday, December 03, 2004, 15:13

(Agree/Disagree?)

For once I agree with you 100%, Shaka(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Friday, December 03, 2004, 15:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
Does that mean i can continue to post my "incredibly stupid thoughts" ? Cause i know you have.(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Friday, December 03, 2004, 15:17

(Agree/Disagree?)
Sure! Your posts are a great source of amusement to me and many others on this site. And what's with the "I know you are but what am I" crap? Can you really not think of anything better to say? C'mon, dig deep into the extensive vocabulary that comes with speaking four languages. Or are your only phrases, "Hi, Jesus loves you!, Can you help with a donation?, Are you going to throw away that over-ripe fruit?" etc, etc...(reply to this comment
From Aunty Mary
Friday, December 03, 2004, 18:10

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, please do give us more of your seeds of wisdom!(reply to this comment
From Wolf
Friday, December 03, 2004, 14:09

(Agree/Disagree?)
Just ignore the dude.(reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 14:25

(
Agree/Disagree?)
You are sounding like a goldfish tho, one min you say you don't like Berg and Zerby.(TF) then you do. Just look back at your comments, you say

" i had an ideal childhood...."

" I thought I had made it clear in my first article how I do not
hate TF."

then

"What I have done is express the way I see K.Z and HER movement(TF) using the Bible..."

"Even tough the article didnt praise or glorify Berg in any way thats what most people understood so i'm sorry about that."

so what are you trying to say??

You do realise that Zerby and Peter control TF's members and they can't take a shit without her say so.

Hence the fact that many of us are angry about this and many if not all have been abused in some way in TF, because of it's leadership and passive members (our parents).

You can pray as much as you like, it will not change anything, sorry to break it to you. But if you like trying to get blood from a stone, feel free, I just think it'll be your blood, thats all.

You should be asking the questions at this point. because it's quite clear you don't even understand yourself, what, you are trying to say.

Whats your story? do tell of the idylic nature of your time in TF, or if the opposite is true, tell that.
Don't preach christianity, we all know it and even tho I am an unbeliever (BOO!!) now, I could still "witness" rings around you. But thats not what this site is for.

Some of us who were in the cult(many a lot more years than you) are in the process of bringing the cult to account and bearing wittness of everything they have tried to hide from the world around them. This is slowly and thankfully not the case anymore, so justice will come for many of us in our lifetime and (NOT lord willing--OUR willing) Zerby and peter and WS leadership will have to pay for their crimes against their children.




(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 14:51

(Agree/Disagree?)
What happend Happend and couldnt have happend any other way. I never said i had an "ideal" childhood i said i coundnt have "wished for another". Fate get it?
I dont agree with the familys leadership or what they do. But doesnt the leadership have alot more to blame than the people that follow it? thats what my article ment. If you didnt uderstand it that way i'm sorry. Dont think you were the only one mistreated in TF. But for me thats all in the past and would much rather God judge them. And if he has to use you he will. Can you say eveybody (parents) that were in TF family were assholes ? If you can then say so. But in my case there where lots of "Unc.Aunts" which were not evil and not even strict for that matter. (reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 15:58

(
Agree/Disagree?)
There was so much that needn't have happened. And if we are to stop it from happening again, or to continue to happen then lets not leave it all to god, eh!?

We have courts and judges and prisons, why waste them? So by your reasoning, all crimminals should just roam free to do what they please, without human intervention, because God will deal with it when they die. Not good enough is it?

No one said there were no nice uncs and aunties.

I'm sorry you suffered too, but trust me it wasn't in Gods plan, fate as you put it. And you can put it behind you but only when you have come to terms with what you went through and anger is a good part. You show signs of anger in your comments just use your energy and zeal in another direction.(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 16:29

(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not angry. I get pissed some times when i get insulted yes . But like I told you if God wants to use prisions he will but its still going to be Him. And when he does thats who i'm going to thank. But like i said i'd prefer them going to hell if thats what |God wants. And I didnt suffer. There where some unreasonable double standards and unnecesary spankings but nothing i wasnt able to handle thank God.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Friday, December 03, 2004, 07:44

(Agree/Disagree?)
What about the ones that didn't get off as lightly as you then? You seem highly desensified, something not uncommon in victims of abuse. Breaking the cycle means to stop defending the abuser, you can try and understand and look for reasoning but not excuses. Because by understanding you can learn another way, (which bring choices) with excuses you look the other way and continue to use them.

TF don't want to understand anything of this earth. (fantasy is more their game.) They have not listened to our grievences as they have been told it is merely the voice of the "Devil". The more the "Devil" attacks the more they feel superiour.
They are stuck in this cycle of black and white, god and the devil.
Who taught them to use the bible like this? Berg and Zerby.

Why else is their writings not up for public scrutiny why Selah? Ironic how much time they spent distributing a watered down version of the MO letters only to have the real meaty stuff (members only) come back to bite them on their butts. Let your light shine before all men?? IT surely will , thanks to their children and the internet.



(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Friday, December 03, 2004, 09:42

(Agree/Disagree?)
MB i'm not defending the abuser and i dont think my article does that either. They dont use the Bible entirely just the small fractions of it. Hasnt that been my point? I mean on top of every thing else they do.(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Friday, December 03, 2004, 10:46

(Agree/Disagree?)
True, I am not sticking with your original point which you raised in the article.
I was trying to follow your logic and find out how you really feel, as some of your comments were confusing to me.
You do seem like you have just left, (or haven't yet?) as you seem to have come to this website with a view that we are are whinging. It feels like you have been warned/told TF's dismissive, patronising view of Moving on. Even your screen name is "Whatever" an American term which means "I'm not listening"

It also makes sense to me as you haven't commented on any other articles about the type of abuse people here have gone through. I assume you have not bothered to read them, or you may not have asked Shaka why he looked back with such hate, in the comment above.
I may be wrong!




(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Friday, December 03, 2004, 12:15

(Agree/Disagree?)
Basically when i get on the site i just click on NCs. I left TF like 7 years ago but i think i still kinda have an idea of what its about. And i've never opossed anybody whingeing about TF. (reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 16:21

(
Agree/Disagree?)
TF don't see the harm they have done, because they don't listen to the "hurt" that many of us feel.

They shy away from our expression of sadness, hurt and suffering and see us as part of the game they feel they are playing. and part of that game says that your children are a reflection on them. So if their actions have hurt us they can't hear it.

(reply to this comment
From Fish
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 07:54

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, I’m old enough to answer that question. I’m also old enough to be too busy serving mammon to reply to retards like you. Your bible knowledge that you take such pride in reeks of a lame search engine. I happen to be a ‘specialist’ of sorts in theology. Its part of my job, and it always has been a personal interest to me. I try to think with an open mind, something which you should try on occasion. It should have been obvious from my crack about FTTs that I’m not in the fam. However, as you “know pretty much” I’m sure you caught that. And for Baal’s sake don’t type “what the …..” . God it aggravates me when people do that. It’s What the FUCK!!!!!!! (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 13:32

(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay old man how is it you're to busy working for mammon and then still reply me anyway. Get it straight. Your argument is as confused as your brain which i think already popped out of your open mind. I suggest you go look for it before its to late. And as for your speciality why dont you go seek another because all your teology and work wont do you any good with that type of unbelief. And dont bring yourself down to my level remember i am 19 and if provoked could swear in four different languages and wouldnt think about it twice. But this disscusion is not about that ok?(reply to this comment
From frmrjoyish
Friday, December 03, 2004, 03:28

(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL! Not four different languages!! Because that would be so much worse than one! LOL! You're really in big trouble now, Nick! Everyone must be brain dead from the holidays if this is the main topic going now. Oh well, it's as entertaining as a train wreck I guess!(reply to this comment
From Nick
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 13:47

(Agree/Disagree?)
Gezuz, judging by the last post I sure hope that English isn't one of those 4 languages.

(reply to this comment

From jpmagero
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 13:06

(Agree/Disagree?)
Careful now Nick, don't provoke him. You'll get sworn at.....(reply to this comment
From moon beam
Tuesday, November 30, 2004, 12:32

(Agree/Disagree?)
Thats harsh, I think it's clear enough that he hates TF and is at the point where he realises that TF twisted a lot of scriptures that the mainstream churches no longer get away with. It's part of the process for many to compare the two first. What he's saying, I think, is what some who remain christians on this site have already said, "don't throw out the baby with the bath water." "TF's christianity is different to *the real thing*" This is not an unusual line of reasoning, esp for ex FGA's and one that seems to get results.
He may or may not ever come to realise that there is no *baby*.

(reply to this comment
From live_fast-die_young
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 01:25

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

I pretty much agree with moon beam. *Whatever* is going through the steps of trying to sort through all the befiefs & thought processes he was brought up with and is, unlike most of us on this site, still clinging to many of the basic (the aforementioned "baby") ones....believing that they are real "Christian" values.

I am, however, most surprised by the fact that he STILL thinks this way after being out for, what....7 years?? Dude, take Baxter's advice & try exploring sources of information other than the old Lit trunk. You seem to still be living in a world of demons, spirit helpers, & Berg's "spiritual" etymology lessons.

(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 03:12

(Agree/Disagree?)
I thought I had made it clear in my first article how I do not
hate TF. And my article has nothing to do with the way they twist the few verses they twist. Where exactly in my article was i talking about "real christian values" or the "real christian doctrines" for that matter ?
You're suprised of how i continue to be a christian ?
Belive me i took my own advice 7 years ago and explored different points of view (and still do) only to find how much greater the bible is compared to everything else (i take it you were talking about religion) . And as for the fantasy world you think i live in lemme tell you its far off and berg is no where near .ok? (reply to this comment
From Nick
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 07:28

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Dude, 7 years ago you were only 12 years old. Just a baby.

Even now at your ripe old age of 19 your hardly old enough to know your ass from a whole in the ground. I don't care how mature you THINK you are, your posts show your age.

Just to comment on your original post... What the hell were you smoking?! It's arguments like this that take away credibility for the cause. When you have a bunch of nut jobs trying to show how evil Zerb is by trying to rhyme her name to something evil, it makes you look like your grabbing for straws.

Just stick to the facts and real life stories of abuse. That’s all you need. Next thing we know you’ll be getting drunk on sherry having prophecies about her name.(reply to this comment

From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 14:24

(Agree/Disagree?)
Nick exactly when did I say I was mature ? I dont like it when people put words in my mouth. If my post really does show my age then why are you offended.

As for my original post i didnt have to smoke anything to write it. I have no idea who sherry is and dont intend or care to find out.

On top of all the stories i've just showed how even her name is somthing not very trustworthy. Dont say the people inside dont have at least a clue on whats going on and have heard the stories of abuse. And whats with the insults , paranoia and supposed prophecies? If i can well recall nothing in my article was writen by me and i never claimed it to be a fact. Are you saying we should take the games of the site as well ??? The problem is the hate some people happen to have towards the bible and that a fact.

(reply to this comment
From Nick
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 08:07

(Agree/Disagree?)


Read up kiddo... I never put words in your moth and never said that you said you were mature. But is obvious from your posts that you think you are just a little smarter than everyone else. You think you have figured it all out already. Just wait a year or two and you will look back on yourself and think, Man I really was such an idiot back then wasn't I.

Sherry was a good friend of Bergs and helped him with his "prophecies". LOL. You never herd of her? I have a friend like that also, her name is Sky and she has a mate called Jack.(reply to this comment

From Siolo
Monday, December 06, 2004, 19:55

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Hey! I know Jack and Sky too! They were really there for me when I found out that god was a myth, it was kind of like getting dumped and it was a little depressing. Anyway, Jack and Sky sat through many long nights with me and maybe they got me in a little trouble now and then, but they were just trying to cheer me up and take my mind off things. They are coming over to my house for the holidays and I'm looking forward to thier crazy antics, those two are the life of the party!(reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 16:36

(Agree/Disagree?)
Like i said in one of my previous articles this is my opinion and time will tell.(reply to this comment
From Shaka
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 09:52

(Agree/Disagree?)

Hmmmm, Jack. Doesn't he have two brothers, Johnnie and Jim? Those guys are such moochers, always hanging around our place. And that little shit Jose Cuervo they always bring around with them! If I didn't like them so much I'd kick them out.(reply to this comment

From Nick
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 09:59

(Agree/Disagree?)

Yeah, but that little Mexican Jose Cuervo sure knows how to get a party started! Although I have noticed that if I invite Jack, Johnnie, Jim and Jose all in for a party at the same time I usually regret it. The next morning I usually have to call that bloody chick, Mary, to make me feel batter. (reply to this comment

From Haunted
Friday, December 03, 2004, 07:14

(Agree/Disagree?)

Speaking of Mexicans, that Don Julio has this hot daughter that Fina, Shaka, xhrisl and I partied with a few months back - I think her name was Ańejo (1800), damn she showed us a good time!!

(reply to this comment

From Haunted
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 08:12

(Agree/Disagree?)

Hey, I know Sky but I prefer her sister Belvedere: she's always hanging out over here with my other best friend Jameson, who I like to call Jamie.

You're right whatever dude, you probably wouldn't like Sherry very much as she's a bit too sickly sweet.....(reply to this comment

From Nick
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 09:54

(Agree/Disagree?)
Ahhh, the sisters... I have had many a good night with those two. (reply to this comment
From Shaka
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 10:10

(Agree/Disagree?)

Gasp! Those whores! They told me I was the only one!(reply to this comment

From JohnnieWalker
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 09:56

(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey, don't forget about me.(reply to this comment
From Haunted
Friday, December 03, 2004, 07:16

(Agree/Disagree?)
Nothing against you personally JW, but I prefer partying with Irish men over Scotts like your cousin JB who always manages to force some unlucky chick to worship the porcellen queen.....(reply to this comment
From JohnnieWalker
Friday, December 03, 2004, 12:12

(Agree/Disagree?)

Ah yes, the porcelain queen. She's a beauty! I'm afraid my bastard cousin and I have a nasty habit of bringing women to their knees--much to the pleasure and satisfaction of many men, I should add.(reply to this comment

From sarafina
Thursday, December 02, 2004, 11:23

(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh I haven't forgotten you JW, you are one of the best I've had. You can put me to bed anytime;) In fact after I have a few drinks with the sisters, I'm all yours.;P(reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 14:33

(
Agree/Disagree?)
the games?

Why take it personaly that people don't like/follow the bible? You'll just be pissed of for the rest of your life. (reply to this comment
From whatever1037
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 14:53

(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not pissed niether will i be. And i didnt take it personally i stated a FACT.(reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 16:10

(
Agree/Disagree?)
But I'm glad you've taken Nicks advice. ;) (Just 2 more yrs, if you live in the US or Australia.) Crazy, you can vote at 18, drive at 17, get married at 16, but cannot drink at 21. ??? (reply to this comment
From lisa
Saturday, December 04, 2004, 09:16

(Agree/Disagree?)
U can legaly drink in aus at 18(reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 15:33

(
Agree/Disagree?)
pissed off- means fucked off, hacked off, ticked off,

pissed- drunk

I meant the first.

What fact is that?(reply to this comment
From Nick
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 07:38

(Agree/Disagree?)

Oh wait! Your still to young to drink. In no way do I want to encourage the underage drinking of sherry. (reply to this comment

From Haunted
Wednesday, December 01, 2004, 10:02

(Agree/Disagree?)

LOL! Nice one Nick, finally a point I wholeheartedly agree with you on!

;-) <--insert silly face(reply to this comment

from Shaka
Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 22:43

(Agree/Disagree?)
And your point is?
(reply to this comment)
From whatever1037
Sunday, November 28, 2004, 02:05

(Agree/Disagree?)
Not really trying to make a point . I was just bored and thought what the heck.(reply to this comment
From
Saturday, November 27, 2004, 23:23

(
Agree/Disagree?)
information(reply to this comment

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