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Getting On : Lovers

Sexuality, discussion

from vix - Tuesday, September 11, 2007
accessed 2101 times

Rainy's poll was interesting but I couldn't choose an option to represent me. It seems this area is more conflicted, turbulent, changeable, and paradoxical than most, for me, and there simply isn't a straightforward way to categorise my appetites, attitudes and behaviours.

I'd like to hear what your general thoughts are on the issues raised by the poll, but also I'm sure the discussion will expand to include many other facets of this very complex area.

*********************************************

POLL

Has your family upbringing made you more conservative or more promiscuous sexually?

Cheating is too much like sharing...could never do it. besides, Sleeping around grosses me out, reminds me of my parents.

Memories of childhood abuse interfere with my sex life and make it hard to let down my guard

Seen naked adults since babyhood, it's hard to get excited about it now.

The Family's warnings about AIDS have made me paranoid

I can't understand the sexual boundaries most people seem to have. They don't exist for me because I wasn't brought up with them.

I want to try EVERYTHING sexually because I revel in the fact that nobody rules me but myself.

I find myself with that "wild and free" spirit that I was surrounded with all my life.

*********************************************

I've not got time to talk about myself right now (that's new, eh!) but I will add something later, and maybe a few specific questions, too.

In the meantime, please expose yourselves!

(NO, not like that)



I will say that the option I probably would have chosenas being most correct, had it been worded ever so slightly differently, would have been

"I can't understand the sexual boundaries most people seem to have. They don't exist for me because I wasn't brought up with them."

as I actually feel that i do understand the sexual boundaries most people have, I just don't personally relate to them, or particularly want to abide by them. However, like I said, it's a conflicted area, probably made more difficult by the fact that being acutely aware of the absence of a natural inclination to 'fit in' with the typical crowd or social demographic, I am extremely wary of marginalising myself any more than I really have to, so there's a constant self-correcting mechanism that seems to make me overcompensate on the side of being vastly more careful about what I do than my desires would dictate.

Of course the fact that I am a woman has its place in this analysis, and I'm sure that the ol' slut vs stud double standard has something to do with why I choose not to engage in some of the behaviours that perhaps come quite naturally to me. But then, I think that's the same for almost all women and not really to do with my upbringing, except in the way that I may have been conditioned to relate to my own sexuality and that of others, and how that might in some cases have set me up for pronounced conflict in this area.

Hmmm, have run out of time. Back later. Start talking, people ;)



Reader's comments on this article

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from vix
Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 05:42

(Agree/Disagree?)

As far as how my upbringing has shaped my sexuality, I wouldn't call myself a freak in bed by any means, or even particularly adventurous. In fact, as in most areas of my life, I'm a bit boring, really. I don't have any serious 'issues' concerning sex, I don't think, but what i do have in abundance is issues about intimacy and vulnerability, which obviously impacts somewhat on sexual matters.


(reply to this comment)

from moon beam
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 18:18

(Agree/Disagree?)

quite funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9jJyhu0qOw

(reply to this comment)
from ErikMagnusLehnsher
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 18:10

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Sonja: Sex without love is an empty experience!
Boris: Yes, but as empty experiences go, it's one of the best!

Countess: You are a great lover!
Boris: I practice a lot when I'm alone.

Sonja: Boris, Let me show you how absurd your position is. Let's say there is no God, and each man is free to do exactly as he chooses.What prevents you from murdering somebody?
Boris: Murder's immoral.
Sonja: Immorality is subjective.
Boris: Yes, but subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Not in a rational scheme of perception.
Boris: Perception is irrational. It implies imminence.
Sonja: But judgment of any system of phenomena exists in any rational, metaphysical or epistemological contradiction to an abstracted empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
Boris: Yeah, I've said that many times.

Him: Come to my quarters tomorrow at three.
Sonja: I can't.
Him: Please!
Sonja: It's immoral. What time?
Him: Who is to say what is moral?
Sonja: Morality is subjective.
Him: Subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Moral notions imply attributes to substances which exist only in relational duality.
Him: Not as an essential extension of ontological existence.
Sonja: Can we not talk about sex so much?

Love and Death (1975) Woody Allen
(reply to this comment)

from madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 14:39

(Agree/Disagree?)

What an interesting topic; however, I had better stay away from it or I could easily put my foot in my mouth. I will just say that I am surprised sometimes that I am so comfortable and open with sex and experimenting. How can I love and enjoy sex so much after everything I have been through? It doesnít seem to fit. I would have thought that being in TF would have made me rigid and prudish, always closed off to being touched, but I have to say I would consider myself to be a little crazy and wild compared to others. I felt that option #7 best suited me. I will leave it there. It is interesting to see how our past has affected all of us differently in this regard.


(reply to this comment)

From steam
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 20:42

(Agree/Disagree?)
In the context of a sex discussion did you say you could easily put a foot in your mouth?(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 21:28

(Agree/Disagree?)
HehÖ thatís good. I like that. See, I canít even say I am going to try not to put my foot in my mouth with out putting my foot in my mouth. I do like to put things in my mouth; however, feet would not be first on my list. If your question is whether or not one would fit, it would depend on how long the toes are.(reply to this comment
From Alternative exegesis
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 07:43

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(
Agree/Disagree?)

Steam said "In the context of a sex discussion".
Wouldn't the alternative signification of "foot" be the more appropriate interpretation? (One foot = 12 inches.)

Now then, "did you say you could easily put a foot in your mouth"?

:D

(reply to this comment

From madly
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 13:01

(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, I would certainly give it a go. ;)(reply to this comment
From steam
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 08:12

(Agree/Disagree?)
Both work.(reply to this comment
From Aternative exegesis
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 07:42

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Steam said "In the context of a sex discussion".
Wouldn't the alternative signification of "foot" be the more appropriate interpretation? (One foot = 12 inches.)

Now then, "did you say you could easily put a foot in your mouth"?

:D

(reply to this comment

from fragiletiger
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 14:32

(Agree/Disagree?)

You need an all of the above option.


My choice would be, 'Memories of childhood abuse interfere with my sex life and make it hard to let down my guard, while I find myself with that "wild and free" spirit that I was surrounded with all my life.

MMM even I'm confused now.
(reply to this comment)

From madly
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 16:15

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
When I am into someone, they could do almost anything to my body and I would be okay with it. I love to be touched, kissed, felt, tasted, but if I donít know you, or even if I know you, but I donít feel attracted to you, you had better not touch me or even get too close. I am very protective of my body, who I let touch it and who I choose to give it to.

The weird thing is that some people are just touchy feely and they mean nothing by it. They like to touch your arm, for example, or stand too close (at least what I deem as too close) and this weirds me out and makes my skin crawl. The issue is that they are nice people with nothing wrong with them, other than how I feel about their lack of discernment of proper distance between what I feel is my personal space. I am just curious if most people are this way. Can anyone relate?(reply to this comment
From . . .
Thursday, September 20, 2007, 01:41

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Thats funny -- reminds me when i went to Italy for a visit after having lived in scandinavia and the UK for some time. It seemed to me that everyone was violating my personal space. I guess its a cutural thing too, but i was really surprised I hadnt noticed before, even standing at a bus stop, if you started talking to someone they would get real close to you... creeped me out.

Personally I cant stand if anyone other than my bf comes too close. Reminds me of one to many "uncles" who would do that whilst groping you *shivers* Thats one thing they could always get away with even if they were far too old to try and pressure you into sex (I'm in particular thinking creepy Indian uncles)(reply to this comment
From deeply
Friday, September 14, 2007, 00:28

(Agree/Disagree?)
I can relate.(reply to this comment
From savage
Friday, September 14, 2007, 00:32

(Agree/Disagree?)

Psycho!!(reply to this comment

From thatata
Friday, September 14, 2007, 03:59

Average visitor agreement is 1 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Psycho? You mean simulation of split personality by the use of pseudonyms?(reply to this comment
From madly
Friday, September 14, 2007, 07:25

Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

you are annoying me... don't you have some matches or something you could go play with?(reply to this comment

From truly
Friday, September 14, 2007, 00:34

(Agree/Disagree?)
Takes one to know one...(reply to this comment
From thatata
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 10:05

(Agree/Disagree?)

I know youre talking about paticularly touchy feely people ,idiots, but for me, touching itself kind of annoys me, like a boss can pat u on the back, but try patronizing your boss, he'll be furious. And women effortlessly touching guys, theres some kind of meaning in there is it possible you know what I mean?

One of the things that annoys me or even possibly infuriates me , is when a person i guess in particular a women, but this is neurotic(I know), shows or acts as if she likes me. Something suspicious. I dont know if its an inferiority complex or a superiority complex. Mabye its the question : why exactly?

Do you know what i mean?

Long live alienation, yeah i feel stupid, but I havent learned to lie as good as everyone else has! But a person can still learn to lie, there is yet hope for me!

(reply to this comment

From Dizziet
Thursday, September 20, 2007, 01:20

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Strangely enough I think I do know what you mean. Most of the time if someone shows interest in me I feel panicked and withdraw. They have to be reasonably oblique about it somehow for this not to happen.

When I was 16 a guy I knew came up behind me and started massaging my shoulders. I went rigid, found it entirely uncomfortable. He accused me of having been abused as a child, which I denied quite vehemently. We left TF when I was 13 and I was never on any sharing schedule nor do I recall any sexual encounters with adults as a child. I hadn't really thought about how strong an impact the sexually charged environment, policies and beliefs would have.

I think everyone likes to be touched sometimes. The only times I like to be touched though is when I feel it's out of spontaneous affection, not ritual, not obligation, not if it feels like they want something from me and this often includes my immediate family. One of the things I hated in TF was that so much of "love" and "affection" were determined by policy and duty. If you visited another home you had to hug everyone you met. There were all those stupid songs with the l word in them and you were supposed to love everyone. However, the moment anyone had to choose between a friend and the group guess who won out?

Looks like I've gone a little off topic. However a few people's posts here mentioned loathing the regulation of their sex and by implication personal lives. This feels like another aspect of that. How can you trust relationships with people when a large part of their thought processes, decisions and attitude towards you will be determined by cult policy? (reply to this comment
From madly
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 22:08

(Agree/Disagree?)
No, I don't know what you mean and I am not sure there is hope, but good luck with that. ;)(reply to this comment
From thatata
Friday, September 14, 2007, 03:52

(Agree/Disagree?)
Well at least you're being kind! ;)(reply to this comment
from rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 13:38

(Agree/Disagree?)
I, strangely enough, chose the "Wild and Free" option. Don't know if it's the most accurate, but it includes for me not only a hippy-like anything goes approach, but also (and this is not something I like about myself) that annoying "Sharing God's Love" aspect of my personality which I'm struggling to overcome. Intellectually I know that my body belongs to nobody but myself, but that ingrained subservience is still there when I'm not conscious of it. Part of the reason I take refuge in celibacy (a fair amount of the time) because that "look of love" tends to hang out in my eyes or something and I find it hard to stand up for myself or display a strong persona.
(reply to this comment)
From vix
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 05:13

(Agree/Disagree?)

I can relate here, rainy. I am extremely conscious of the way that sexual allure and perhaps more importantly sexual 'openness' (for want of a better term, excuse the rather unfortunate pun) was ingrained in cult women as pretty much the sole source of self-worth, and more so, the way that women really existed only as an extension of male desire, to be used and then cast off with little regard for emotional and biological ramifications. While this is certainly not unique to our background (sexual attractiveness being for most a mainstay of one's worth as a person, that is), the message was compounded because being 'wild and free' was literally *all* we had (Or I dunno, maybe this is just how I saw it). For this reason, I am quite careful about trying to be as honest with myself about what my motivation is, in whatever sexual situation I find myself in. My sexuality should be a reflection of who I am and *my* wants and desires, not simply an unconscious pattern of looking for affirmation from outside myself (wherever possible, of course - I don't deny that some aspects are unconscious). Similarly, while in practice I can relate to what madly said,

"When I am into someone, they could do almost anything to my body and I would be okay with it. I love to be touched, kissed, felt, tasted"

which sounds similar to myself, I am also very, very wary of allowing my sexuality to become an extension of someone else's appetites. I don't mind exploring where my boundaries lie, but again, I do tend to analyse quite carefully afterwards to assure myself that I didn't in any way compromise my own core being, if you like. I realise this all sounds very tedious, but of course when I am in the moment I just go with the flow, do what feels right, and take things as far as I feel comfortable with. The analysis is really quite a separate issue, and as with most other areas in life things seem to be much more straightforward in real time, it's really only when you stop to examine them that it can get a bit complicated. I still think it's useful to think about it, though, in order to be as self-aware as I can.

(reply to this comment

From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:12

(Agree/Disagree?)

This song reminds me of you, rainy. I will explain later. I bet you can figure it out, though. ;)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nFrKBrlZYPY(reply to this comment

From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 18:52

(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey sorry for leaving you and everyone in chat...my computer totally froze up on me and didn't even let me say goodbye. And I haven't worked out at all why this song reminds you of me. Do tell. :)(reply to this comment
From vix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:21

(Agree/Disagree?)

Mmmm Paolo Nutini, really rather tasty. Except his name makes me think of nutella and it's been a long time since I've liked that.

(reply to this comment

From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 20:20

(Agree/Disagree?)

Nice voice and song but he looks like Chris Kattan's little brother. (reply to this comment

From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:25

(Agree/Disagree?)
yes, he is yummy! Nice lips! I love his voice, deep with longing. Too bad he is only 20 and I like my men to be men. :'((reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:39

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here's one for you, Nick. Since you are in there and I know how you love your strippers. This is a fun song to dance to. I got a dollar last week at the club while dancing to this song. Maybe I have a future ahead of me. :P

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iWg3IMN_rhU(reply to this comment

From Nick
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:57

(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL, I don't "love my strippers". I don't even remember the last time I tipped a dancer. :)
But thanks for the song anyway, darlin...(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 16:04

(Agree/Disagree?)

Cheap are we? You know they don't like to dance for free, don't you?(reply to this comment

From Nick
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 11:48

(Agree/Disagree?)
Ha ha. Whateva, you know what I mean. :)(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 16:00

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Okay, Samuel, I don't want you to feel left out... so here you go. One day you will find someone who will sing this to you, but I kind of think you may be the one singing it to them. :P

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yN2rdVS7T6U(reply to this comment

From Samuel
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, 18:01

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here is my song for you, Madly. You deserve the best that life has to offer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4pcj5sKOFQ(reply to this comment

From cheeks
Friday, September 14, 2007, 19:48

(Agree/Disagree?)
Damn it. Where is my song? Everyone has a song but me.(reply to this comment
From madly
Friday, September 14, 2007, 23:35

(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry, cheeks, I know I promised you a song and here it is. I dedicate this to you and your beautiful baby boy. :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nKDkXOOHG34
For You (Per Te)
I smell in the air the scent of you
Little dreams had lived with me
Now I know, I donít want to lose you
That sweetness which has no age
Your beauty has no rivals
My heart wants only you

For you, For you, Iíll live
Love is going to win
With you, With you, Iíll have
Hundreds days of happiness
Hundreds nights of serenity
Iíll do what youíll ask me to
Iíll go always anywhere you go
Iíll give all the love I feel for you

Tell me that you know the future, yet
Tell me that this is not going to change
Without you I donít want to exist

For you, For you, Iíll live
Love is going to win
With you, With you, Iíll have
Hundreds days of happiness
Hundreds nights of serenity
Iíll do what youíll ask me to
Iíll go always anywhere you go
Iíll give all the love I feel for you

I mustnít say it to you, by now you know it
That I would die without you

For you, For you, Iíll live
Love is going to win
With you, With you, Iíll do

Everything youíll ask me to
Iíll go always anywhere you go
Iíll give all the love I feel for you
(reply to this comment
From :-)
Friday, September 14, 2007, 21:42

(
Agree/Disagree?)
I am sure you have a song, cheeks. I have a song too, even if it never gets on you-tube, even if I don't have hours to view each you-tube that is supposed to sub for conversation.(reply to this comment
From fragiletiger
Saturday, September 22, 2007, 16:00

(Agree/Disagree?)

My song for the Family:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbGSDkvh8B0&mode=related&search=

(reply to this comment

From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 16:09

(Agree/Disagree?)

Andy wants a song too. I love this song and it reminds me of you and what you are going through.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=smKb79ltpaU(reply to this comment

From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:02

(Agree/Disagree?)
This is my song for me. http://youtube.com/watch?v=rTsw388QK5Q(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL!!(reply to this comment
From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:06

(Agree/Disagree?)
Which is a good place to be because I used to be here http://youtube.com/watch?v=PLqlSUluPao(reply to this comment
From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:10

(Agree/Disagree?)
And this is how I sometimes feel about you when you say the deepest most profound things that touch my soul...http://youtube.com/watch?v=MVKcfwJxa54&mode=related&search=(reply to this comment
From Ne Oublie
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 09:42

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yea, I know, I like the sappy ones!(reply to this comment
From madly
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 11:03

(Agree/Disagree?)
??(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:13

(Agree/Disagree?)
awww... rainy, will you marry me?(reply to this comment
From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
Um...no.(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:17

(Agree/Disagree?)
:'( fine, then I will have to find a man just like you.(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:10

(Agree/Disagree?)
LMAO... okay, don't tell anyone, but I secretly like that song. shhhh placebo may here me. I think that song really sounds like me, actually. (reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:16

(Agree/Disagree?)
I was talking about the "To the Moon and Back" song sounding like me, cause it is confusing now with all the comments inbetween. That will be the song I dedicate to myself. (reply to this comment
From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 21:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
I knew what you meant. It was my song for me when I was 17.(reply to this comment
From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:13

(Agree/Disagree?)
I was just wondering where he is...expecting him to go psycho on us with an automatic weapon at any moment.(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:18

(Agree/Disagree?)
Right?(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:19

(Agree/Disagree?)
actually, your sis may get pissed too.(reply to this comment
From fragiletiger
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 03:08

(Agree/Disagree?)

SAdly I too must admit to being one of the legions of emotionally damaged women who teared up when hearing this song. In my defense I did fight against it, as I felt it had been cynically engenered to garner that reaction. (did I mention emotionally damaged?)

Not that I've gotten much better, my song for me (that should be a cd compilatiion) would have to be, ah gawd this is embarrassing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLXULfN77TQ&mode=related&search=(reply to this comment

From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 21:15

(Agree/Disagree?)
Sheesh. It's like living in a Nazi state. Oh no, here come the music police!(reply to this comment
From vix
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 01:13

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here's my song for me (with many thanks to placebo for making it known to me), I think I may love it more than almost any other song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc9ZbS4KMdg

(reply to this comment

From vix
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 01:17

(Agree/Disagree?)

Just watched it again. God, but it's beautiful. Stirs my soul every fuckin time.

(reply to this comment

From rainy
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 12:52

(Agree/Disagree?)
Damnit. You had to go and pick an actual good song.
(I agree, it's perfect.)(reply to this comment
From vix
Friday, September 14, 2007, 12:51

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here's my song for tonight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxZuj77tUHk

(reply to this comment

From vix
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 02:02

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here's my song for somebody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYo2GtEvMQI

(I blame you, madly, for sparking off this worrying trend in my posting patterns)


(reply to this comment

From madly
Sunday, September 16, 2007, 20:48

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here is my song for me:
Mad World
All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World
Mad world
Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
And I feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen
Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me
And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World
Mad World
Enlarging your world
Mad World.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=v52Igdotisk

(reply to this comment

From thatata
Monday, September 17, 2007, 12:26

(Agree/Disagree?)

Actually, with no lying I like this song. Its in the movie Donnie Darko, theres also some other good songs in there.(reply to this comment

From Ne Oublie
Monday, September 17, 2007, 02:19

Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
If you're going to link to the song, at least have the decency to make it the Tears for Fears original.(reply to this comment
From placebo
Monday, September 17, 2007, 12:33

(Agree/Disagree?)
who's the music snob now? I'm proud of you.(reply to this comment
From madly
Monday, September 24, 2007, 13:55

(Agree/Disagree?)
Because I feel like asking for it, here is my song for placebo:
When I arrived in my old set of clothes
I was half a world away from my home
and I was hunted by the wolves
and I was heckled by the crows
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

Alongside my innocence I laid in bed awake
conflicted and in chains with the impetus of age
but like a phantom she crept across the floor and out the window
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

From its place on the mantel my heart was taken down
scattered in a thousand little pieces on the ground
and I below the streetlamp like an orphan with a halo
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

cuz it wonít last
worriesíll pass
all your troubles they donít stand a chance
and sometimes it takes more than a lifetime to know
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

Your confidences fall as your faith etched in stone
neither could comfort you from the wild unknown
so bury your burning hatred like a hatchet in the snow
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

If you have a broken heart or a battered soul
find something to hold onto until they go
to help you through the hard nights
like a flask filled with hope
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

sometimes your path is marked in the sky
sometimes it falls too thin in between the lines
sometimes all you can do is say no
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know

I said when I arrived in my old set of clothes
I was half a world away from my home
and I was hunted by the wolves
and I was heckled by the crows
Darliní do not fear what you donít really know
I said Darliní do (reply to this comment
From madly
Monday, September 24, 2007, 14:00

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6icYcAWuuUM(reply to this comment

From vix
Monday, September 24, 2007, 14:22

(Agree/Disagree?)

No song from me this time, but a poem is in order, I think.

Here's my poem for me:

All I askAll I ask of a woman is that she shall feel gently towards
me
when my heart feels kindly towards her,
and there shall be the soft, soft tremor as of unheard bells
between us.
It is all I ask.
I am so tired of violent women lashing out and insisting
on being loved, when there is no love in them.
Yay for Lawrence.
(reply to this comment

From cheeks
Monday, September 24, 2007, 17:22

(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh no, why Vix?(reply to this comment
From v
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, 13:14

(Agree/Disagree?)

It reminds me of an aspect of myself, that's all.

(reply to this comment

From madly
Monday, September 24, 2007, 14:31

(Agree/Disagree?)
Love it!(reply to this comment
From vix
Monday, September 24, 2007, 16:29

(Agree/Disagree?)

Eh, who am I kidding. Here's my *real* poem for me, tonight:


I have changed the numbers on my watch,

and now perhaps something else will change.

Now perhaps

at precisely 2.00 a.m.

you will not get up

and gathering your things together

go forever.

Perhaps now you will find it is

far too early to go,

or far too late,

and stay forever.


What to do, eh...


(reply to this comment

From madly
Monday, September 24, 2007, 14:53

(Agree/Disagree?)

Someone sent me this song just now... I hope I can say this to someone one day. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCf9Dk18vPc&mode=related&search=(reply to this comment

From madly
Monday, October 01, 2007, 15:56

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here is my song for today... maybe for someone one day or maybe from me to me, who cares?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4SZhumbv0s(reply to this comment

From vix
Monday, October 01, 2007, 16:34

(Agree/Disagree?)

Here's the last song I will ever post here (I think).

For 2006

For my friends

For remembering with affection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkE8g4kncM

(reply to this comment

From madly
Monday, October 01, 2007, 23:01

(Agree/Disagree?)

This is how I feel:

Here's a thought for every man
Who tries to understand what is in his hands
He walks along the open road of Love & Life
surviving if he can

Bound with all the weight of all the words he tried to say
Chained to all the places that he never wished to say
Bound with all the weight of all the words he tried to say
and as faced the sun he cast no shadow

As they took his soul they stole his pride
As they took his soul they stole his pride
As they took his soul they stole his pride

Here's a thought for every man
Who tries to understand what is in his hands
He walks along the open road of Love & Life
surviving if he can

Bound with all the weight of all the words he tried to say
Chained to all the places that he never wished to say
Bound with all the weight of all the words he tried to say
and as faced the sun he cast no shadow

As they took his soul they stole his pride
As they took his soul they stole his pride
As they took his soul they stole his pride

And as he faced the sun he cast no shadow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJyxwgn9CDs(reply to this comment

From madly
Tuesday, October 02, 2007, 00:19

(Agree/Disagree?)

Kelly, sleep, be at peace and close your tired eyes. I will watch the world for you and you can dream a world for me. One day, maybe I can live there too. xxx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzUfvIi20V8(reply to this comment

From madly
Tuesday, October 02, 2007, 03:38

(Agree/Disagree?)
heh, I realized after that this comment sounded a little nuts to everyone not in the chat room, but hey... madly's the name. ;)(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, October 02, 2007, 11:02

(Agree/Disagree?)

This song is for vacuous:

They tell you where you need to go
They tell you when you need to leave.
The tell you what you need to know
They tell you who you need to be.

But everything inside you
knows there's more than what you've heard
There's so much more than empty conversations
filled with empty words

And you're on fire
when He's near you
You're on fire when He speaks
You're on fire burning at these mysteries.

Give me one more time around
give me one more chance to see,
Give me everything Your are
Give me one more chance to be near You.

When everything inside me
Looks like everything I hate
You are the hope I have for change
You are the only chance I'll take

And I'm on fire when You're near me
I'm on fire when you speak
I'm on fire burning at these mysteries.

I'm standing on the edge of me,
I'm standing at the edge of everything I've ever been
And I've been standing at the edge of me, standing at the edge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZutf32HKeM
(reply to this comment

From Ne Oublie
Monday, September 24, 2007, 15:48

(Agree/Disagree?)
Great song!(reply to this comment
From vix
Monday, September 24, 2007, 15:06

(Agree/Disagree?)

I hope I never find myself saying that to someone. Nothing good can come of it.

(reply to this comment

From vix
Monday, September 24, 2007, 14:27

(Agree/Disagree?)

Arrgghhhhhhhhhh, excuse the shitty formatting.

(reply to this comment

From fragiletiger
Tuesday, September 18, 2007, 02:59

(Agree/Disagree?)

I gave him the thumbs up, doesn't that in some small way redeem me?

(reply to this comment

From madly
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 02:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
What trend would that be? Great song, BTW. ;)(reply to this comment
From vix
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 03:48

(Agree/Disagree?)

The trend of posting songs to myself and others. But hey, it's my article and I don't mind, so you and I can do what we want. Wahey!

(reply to this comment

From rainy
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 04:09

(Agree/Disagree?)
I kind of think it's my article. Maybe it can be ours. I'm the dad, you're the mum.(reply to this comment
From vix
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 04:14

(Agree/Disagree?)

Heh, true true, credit where it's due. Actually if you want to, you could add some questions to the article, it might be a good way to get more discussion on the specific areas you were interested in.

(reply to this comment

From rainy
Friday, September 14, 2007, 15:13

(Agree/Disagree?)
;)(reply to this comment
From vix
Friday, September 14, 2007, 15:36

(Agree/Disagree?)

Are you going to join me in the chat?

(reply to this comment

From vix
Friday, September 14, 2007, 16:17

(Agree/Disagree?)

Ah well, looks like it won't be tonight. Have yourself a lovely weekend, babe.

(reply to this comment

From rainy
Friday, September 14, 2007, 23:02

(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry Vix. :((reply to this comment
From neez
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 03:06

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(
Agree/Disagree?)
Ah fuck, listening to the pumpkins just brought back a shit-load of nostalgia.

I shall now post their best ever song for no other reason then it reminds me of a better time and place...the brief period during the 90's(just realised what a fucken good era that was) that I was able to experience life as a kid without a care in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWw-gsx_Io(reply to this comment
From neez
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 02:45

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Whats with youtube stealing Jules agree/disagree thumbs idea?(reply to this comment
From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
and no, I am not referring to you and me. Then again, you are hot. I could probably go gay for you. :P(reply to this comment
from Phoenixkidd
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:47

(Agree/Disagree?)

It seems like we are still very se**ually open and eager to try things.

If you add up these two categories from the recent results:


















I can't understand the sexual boundaries most people seem to have. They don't exist for me because I wasn't brought up with them.





I want to try EVERYTHING sexually because I revel in the fact that nobody rules me but myself.




You get 41%...Quite high marks..
(reply to this comment)

From rainy
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 06:08

(Agree/Disagree?)
What a funny little contradiction you made, saying we are sexually open, yet starring out the word sexually...(reply to this comment
From Phoenixkidd
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 11:17

(Agree/Disagree?)

Well Rainy, it's because I typed the post from work and certain words may be tagged in the system by network management.

about the 41% thing I think that's pretty standard for the normal populace, you will usually find a 50/50 on conservative versus liberal in the matter of s*x!

(reply to this comment

From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 13:33

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes but the other half of people voted the more conservative answers, "Childhood abuse" and "distaste for sleeping around".(reply to this comment
From afflick
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 19:43

(Agree/Disagree?)

I haven't found many people like me, who grew up in TFI and were afraid of sex. Well, not "afraid" but...distrustful. Looking at my sexual timeline, I try to figure out why it took so many years into my adult life to engage in that aspect of interactions. Maybe some amateur psycho-therapists out there can help me out?

Ages 3-7: lots of sex, sexual graphics, sexual play, even a frickin' sex coloring book, for God's sake!

Ages 7-11: introduction of Heaven's Girl and Heaven's Children series, lots of sexual comics, sexual and rape fantasies in print, watching adults have sexual interactions, making semi-nude dance videos, watching others dance for same.

Age 11 -13: sexual content and interaction with peers, sharing schedules. Age 13-17: all sexual interactions barred, no sex before marriage and marriage must be approved by leadership, those who disobey get silence restriction for months.

Age 17 -21: no sex without getting permission from home leadership, marriage highly encouraged for prolonged sexual interactions.

Age 21-24: adult men hitting me up for sex and trying to trap me into situations where I would give in, these mens' wives taking their revenge on me for their husband's interest even though it wasn't reciprocated, married men my age hitting on me when I was only wanting a relationship of my own with someone unmarried.

So, that's pretty complicated. I don't judge those whose reactions to their childhood is unbridle sexuality but I hope they can see how the same traumas might cause someone else extreme reluctance in the sexual arena.(reply to this comment

From Boss Lady
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 12:35

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
my experience was identical to yours except that mine ended at the 17-21 years bracket. how bizarre is it that you cannot have sexual interaction as a teenager when you desire it most, after a sexualized childhood. and then when you are "allowed" to have sex, you must give in to all sexual advances or be viewed as rebellious.
i remember watching marianne at greenfields in japan take a 17 year old girl in our home on a walk to discuss her refusal to have sex with a very adult(45 year old) and very married man. it was soon after this, that i chose to have sex, i was 16 with a boy my age, my choice. i did this because i thought, "wow! only one year and i will have to have sex with whoever wants my body. i am going to make sure my first experience is a good one" i got in HUGE trouble when it was found out. babes status, silence restriction, public exposure (they sent a letter to all teens in japan to pray for my soul). this experience, the humiliation, gave sex a huge ugly guilt thing for me. i felt dirty, sinful, evil for having sex with someone of my choosing. after being told my whole life sex was natural and good. i did it to be in control and they wanted to have that sexual control over me. weird, weird, weird. (reply to this comment
From Phoenixkidd
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 11:20

(Agree/Disagree?)

I remember this too Boss Lady--The absolute Irony of do as I say and not as I do. I remember being shocked by some of the letters from the cult leader and seeing some people almost choke on how crazy he was when we are all going through this damn conservative phase. It was terribly ironic to young teenagers and I am glad that kids in normal society don't have to go through those wierd experiences we did.

(reply to this comment

From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 21:39

(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't think anyone would judge that. That's just your inner self trying to find equilibrium. In fact, I was wondering if this had happened to many people, which is why I asked in the first place. I myself just came out of 2 1/2 years of celibacy after a particularly horrific sexual period of my life, so I understand well.(reply to this comment
From vix
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 05:28

(Agree/Disagree?)

I find that this period of realignment, in a sense, happens on a regular basis with me. My general outlook or feeling inside myself will change rather abruptly and where I once felt quite sexually charged, with almost anything I see or think being a potential catalyst for increased sexual tension, I will suddenly find that that part of me has gone quite dormant and I really don't feel very aware of any sexual impulse or desire (in respect of wanting sex with another person) and vice versa. Either of these states can exist for months (as an overall mood, that is, obviously it will change a bit from day to day according to specific circumstances) and then it will change again just as abruptly. I look at it as my inner self searching, as always, for that state of equilibrium.


(reply to this comment

From afflick
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 22:29

(Agree/Disagree?)

I am not talking about celibacy, per se, as I believe celibacy coming after a period of intense sexual relations may just be part of the same extremism that drove the individual to multiple partners in the first place. Sincerely, I really haven't met anyone like myself, a young woman in TF that disliked sex, not on its own merits but on the principle of the circumstances I lived in. I wonder if I am the only one who had that reaction? I know that traveling from home to home, there were very few of my peers who didn't engage in consentual sex when given the opportunity.

It was only after leaving TF that I started to feel like a sexual being and, even then, I had very few partners and prefered committed relationships. (reply to this comment

From /?
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 22:03

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(
Agree/Disagree?)

I was pretty much blacklisted when I declined to be on the sharing schedule they set up in the Teen Home, even though they said it was voluntary. The circumstances I lived in, you say. Same here. I mean, put your top 3 choices on a list but be aware that some people are too in demand and you won't get them?? But that was just a symptom. To me it felt like one big incest ring, and that held no appeal. We grew up with everyone being "brothers and sisters". Your choices limited to whoever some leader decides is in your area or home (assuming the rules at the time are in the right phase). They/you can be moved at any time, never to be heard from again. If you are a black sheep like I was, forget it -- on the off chance you have feelings for somebody, they will either say you'll drag down a good cultie or that you will combine with another black sheep to be an even worse influence.

At best, your universe of choices is the limited group of people in this cult-- a cult which you just might be sick of, hate having been born in, and want out of. Although I have no sex life or romatic life, as I have been to busy catching up in other aspects, it seems to me that for a human being one lovely thing about romantic love is broadening your horizons. How can a fellow censore, controlled cultie do that? Most likely they will turn you in on an OHR for brownie points.

I always longed to just be in the world in a "normal" nuclear family and that any romance were of the stripe where it's something that's not communal property or voyeuristic shepherds' business.

I have been around this website for a while after years of not having much contact with other exers. At first I thought, well it's nice that some people still have the ability to have a romance/sex life and on top of that to talk about it. But I just can't relate. I don't seem to want the things most people around here do. But bully for them(reply to this comment

From rainy
Friday, September 14, 2007, 03:45

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
You've perfectly encapsulated everything about the Family that totally sabotages any attempts at normal sexual relationships whilst in. And when it comes down to it, living your life is about your choices,not what other people think is ideal. It's almost unacceptable or unrelatable not to want to be sexual. That's part of the long way we have to go in developing our maturity as planet of people. Keeping our nose out of other people's lives and respecting their individuality. Just go with your feelings, the way you've been doing.(reply to this comment
From /?
Friday, September 14, 2007, 18:03

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Thanks, Rainy, I really appreciate that.

Did I mention that at said Teen Home where they had that sharing schedule, on video night the teens (yes, the non-black-sheep ones, the ones considered OK, acceptable people) who "liked" each other were not supposed to sit by each other, hold hands, etc.?(reply to this comment

From rainy
Saturday, September 15, 2007, 04:13

(Agree/Disagree?)
It's just the control factor. Everything had to be controlled. Anything our own idea or initiative was probably not of the lord or unified...(reply to this comment
From cheeks
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 13:07

(Agree/Disagree?)
I am with you. When I turned 18 it seemed like there was no shortage of people who wanted to sleep with me because now I was "legal". Mostly it was the 45 year old men and the sheps of the home who didn't understand why I didn't want to share with them.
When I moved to a home that had more tns and YA's there seemed to be no shortage of people who swapped around which is understandable considering our upbringing. I decided I wasn't going to be one of them and never slept around in the Family. My first relationship ended up being my husband and we have been together 11 years now.(reply to this comment
From fragiletiger
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, 02:58

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

I believe that it is quite common for children who are sexually abused to react in one of two ways. They either completely close themselves off, finding ways to completely de-sexualize them selfís as they go through puberty i.e.: wearing baggy clothes, embracing a goth type look etc

Or becoming very promiscuous, often getting involved in unhealthy situations and relationships.

I would like to add one more as well, something that may be somewhat unique to that family. From the very first we where taught that the only sexual Ďsinsí where saying no and male homosexuality. Which resulted in young people, who seemed very enthusiastic, and sexually confident, where in fact it was more something they thought they should be, rather then a true reflection of who they were.

I think for a lot of us finding out what our sexual morals where, and what we actually where into was and is a huge step in our Ďre-constructioní.



(reply to this comment

From afflick
Thursday, September 13, 2007, 16:13

(Agree/Disagree?)

The point I was trying to make is exactly the opposite. In my experience, it was not just a "react[ion] in one of two ways." I did not close myself off, wear baggy clothing, embrace goth or any other outward manifestation of my sexual hesitantcy. I looked pretty much like every other Family-raised girl and went through everyday interactions (in non-sexual ways) identically. It was much more subtle than can be detailed by dividing into two subcategories. (reply to this comment

From rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 22:48

(Agree/Disagree?)
I had very little sex in The Family. I spent the last two years on Partial Excom, first because I was living with my parents and we changed to Trf supporter status and then I 'rejoined'..ie moved to another home. That was 6 months and AIDS tests even though I was still a virgin. Then I lost my virginity to a friend who had left, another 6 months for that. After that I got two more sets of partial, one for kissing a 15 yr old when I was nineteen, and one for kissing someone who'd had sex with outsiders, the end result being that I left the family still very inexperienced in the sexual department. In that way, I was always considered a bit odd by the other girls. A lot of my hesitance was due to a sexual abuse incident as a child, and much of it was because I just sort of had a non-sexual image or something, people had it of me or I had it of myself...I don't know. I was waiting for something magical I think.(reply to this comment
from rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:42

(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, and, by the way, the option which was VERY badly worded was, "I can't shake the prejudice against gays". What I meant to convey there was that the person is closed off to the possibility of homosexuality in themselves, or to any experimentation or openness in that area due to the Family's upbringing.
(reply to this comment)
from rainy
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:38

(Agree/Disagree?)
I knew I was failing miserably in trying to put in options. I would have preferred to have left it an open question, but didn't really seem like enough to make an article out of...seems it is. :) I just kind of put in different extremes I thought might apply...but, yeah, there weren't enough options spaces.
(reply to this comment)
from Yay sex!
Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 10:31

(Agree/Disagree?)
May as well kick it off with a bang. This is the one that I most closely related to: ďI want to try EVERYTHING sexually because I revel in the fact that nobody rules me but myself.Ē First off let it be known that I am unwavering in my practice of safe sex. Second, I am quite discriminate when it comes to my sexual partners. Sex is good, I like it a lot. Sex neither rules nor interferes with my life. I have been in quite a few -what some might consider- compromising situations and enjoyed the hell out of all of them. I wonít go into detail on a public forum. I hope to find myself in more of those situations before I croak. The way I see it, responsible adults should be able to do anything that doesnít interfere with their lives or the lives of others.
(reply to this comment)
From thatata
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 10:36

(Agree/Disagree?)

You would be more interesting as well as inflammatory if you were not annoymous.(reply to this comment

From nix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 10:50

(Agree/Disagree?)

It's not meant to be inflamatory and I don't care if you find me interesting. I know you just wanted to know if I was female so you could hit on me. Shame on you Thatata.(reply to this comment

From thatata
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:03

(Agree/Disagree?)
Ha ha ha! I dont hit on people on the internet, idiot, but I guess you're joking so whats the harm. Its great you showed your true gender, I didnt know if the trick would work! It seems it has. Thank you, my sweet. Im kidding Im being an asshole sorry.... :((reply to this comment
From nix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:10

(Agree/Disagree?)
Don't stop, I was almost there.........(reply to this comment
From vix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 10:58

(Agree/Disagree?)

It did cross my mind, i wonder how many people will want to post under their names, since we all know each other pretty well by now, and there's always a chance that some of us will run into each other again, if we haven't already. I'm going to try to be as forthright as I can in exploring my own feelings about this, but at the same time I am very aware that when i write here I am really quite detached and maybe not as honest as I would like to think. Dunno. As to your chosen option above, that is one of the ones i don't relate to. I do not want to try *everything* that there is to try.

(reply to this comment

From madly
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:08

(Agree/Disagree?)

This song makes me think of you, vix. :) Just the chorus.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kPEsPy6s908(reply to this comment

From vix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 15:22

(Agree/Disagree?)

Heh thanks, it's not hard to see the connection...

(reply to this comment

From nix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:09

(Agree/Disagree?)

Well, I took it more as "Everything I want to try" I guess. To clarify, I don't want to do "EVERYTHING" out there as there are all sorts of disgusting and victimizing paraphilias out there. I want to draw myself as few lines as possible, yet mind the ones I have drawn for myself. I don't have any recollections of past lives so I am assuming I only get to do this once. With that in mind I plan to get my money's worth.(reply to this comment

From thatata
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:23

(Agree/Disagree?)
"my moneys worth" - Ha ha ha, hey I cant help it I must be an idiot!(reply to this comment
From nix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:33

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, money's worth. Unless you were born with all of lifeís opportunity and good fortune neatly packaged and gift wrapped awaiting your whim, you pay for it every day. Maybe you don't see it that way, that's ok.(reply to this comment
From thatata
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:34

(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you nix.(reply to this comment
From nix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:36

(Agree/Disagree?)
Ummm, you're welcome, I think...(reply to this comment
From vix
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, 11:15

(Agree/Disagree?)

OK, that makes sense.

(reply to this comment

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