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Getting On : Lovers

Are women a Challenge?

from TheJoker - Tuesday, January 28, 2003
accessed 2091 times

Can't live with them but can't live without them - see the single version

Writen by Marcus

My Dealings with women have always been somewhat akin to my relationship with the cryptic crossword: not only do I never give the right answers, I don't even understand the questions. "Do these shoes go with this top?" "Should I change jobs?" "Do you love me?", are questions these women are always asking. I don't know, do they, should you, do I? I have no idea. What on earth are you talking about? Why aren't you cooking?"

My friend "The Joker" insists that just as the cryptic crossword only unlocks its mysteries to those willing to persevere, women can only be understood by those men willing to train in the dark arts of emotional vulnerability and openness.

You know what I say to that? Baloney. Call me an idiot (and believe me, many have) but that's just a whole lot of wasted effort. The point about cryptic crosswords is that there's a knack to them. Once you've worked one out, you can pretty much work out a lot.

Of course women like to think they're challenging. And don't men? It makes us appear more interesting than we really are. But being irrational and temperamental doesn't make you a "challenge" - it just makes you bloody annoying. So shut up and get back to the kitchen.

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from Baxter
Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 01:42

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
I agreed with most of this; right up to 'shut up and go back to the kitchen' -that's ignorant, man; men are just as cryptic and emotional - we just conceal it differently. Don't blame women for your failure to communicate.
(reply to this comment)
from solemn
Monday, January 23, 2006 - 14:27

(Agree/Disagree?)
Would you want a woman who was not a challenge? Give me an articulate, opinionated woman who speaks her mind like she might loose it tomorrow, and Iím a happy man.
(reply to this comment)
From vixen
Monday, January 23, 2006, 14:53

(Agree/Disagree?)

Heh, it must be my lucky day - It's 'lose', k?

Sorry. I'm bored.(reply to this comment

From solemn
Monday, January 23, 2006, 15:16

(Agree/Disagree?)
Damn! One day you will be in need of slack and I shall give you none. Thank you Ms. May I have another?(reply to this comment
from Shackled
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 23:49

(Agree/Disagree?)

"are women a challenge?"

Really depends on how much you know about them.

Here's 10 things men know about women.

1.)

2.)

3.)

4.)

5.)

6.)

7.)

8.)

9.)

10.) They have breasts.
(reply to this comment)

from Movie Quote
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 04:26

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

To quote Heath Ledger: "Women, cant live with'm, .....can't live with'm"

A little more realistic point of view for you here - esp. since to you, getting to understand or know a woman is a "waste of effort".

Cheers to you mate! Enjoy the celibate life as you search through all those empty kitchens for the subservient wife who asks nothing and only lives to fills your whims....
(reply to this comment)

from frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 12:20

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

As a woman, maybe I can help you out with a few good responses to the questions that seem to stump you.

"Do these shoes go with this top?" Any woman asking a straight man for fashion advice has to be pretty clueless herself. So your best bet is to just say, "Yes babe, you look beautiful as usual".

"Should I change jobs?" She's not really asking for your advice, but she's seeking your concern and support. Your best bet is to get her to talk it out while you listen and nod at the appropriate times. She will eventually arrive at her own conclusion and if you play your cards right, you can take some of the credit for helping her.

"Do you love me?" This depends on the timing of the question. If its after the first date, you are required to say nothing but seeya! If it's after 3 or 4 months, it's a yes or no question, buddy.

And in the future if you want to avoid having an irrational and emotional woman on your hands, the following should NEVER EVER come out of your mouth again: "Shut up and get back to the kitchen".



(reply to this comment)

From Shackled
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 19:09

(
Agree/Disagree?)

3 or 4 months? They say it takes about 3 months to really know the other person. Of course those 3 months start after you start seeing each other on a regular basis. If she asked me within 3 or 4 months of meeting and I liked her I would have to say it was too soon to know.

(reply to this comment

From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 20:44

(Agree/Disagree?)
Hmm! Interesting! I've never been the first to say the "L" word, but it's usually been said to me within the first month or two. I thought I was being conservative with the 3 or 4 months. (reply to this comment
From exister
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:48

Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

She said, "Do I look fat?"

I replied, "Do I look stupid?"(reply to this comment

From JohnnieWalker
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 16:38

(Agree/Disagree?)

I've had to learn the hard way (thankfully, when I was 14 and girls were not the biggest issue in my life) that there is no direct answer to that question that will be taken the way you meant it. (Hypothetically, if a girl is asking a question that pointed, giving the "Do I look stupid" answer would infer you've given up on the relationship with her -- which, depending on the woman, might be a good move.)

In my limited experience, the best thing is usually to address the unspoken meaning of the question which could range from seeking confirmation of unconditional love to frustration over the seeming lack of effect of one's weight loss program.

In my case, if a woman's weight (within reason) was ever crucial to my relationship with her I might oblige to having my head examined, as I would consider it a prejudice on my part.

Obviously, this is not the case with all guys. -- To each his own. I tend to go for brains and character and if good looks are included in the deal (as is the case with my wife), I consider myself lucky.(reply to this comment

From JohnnieWalker
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 16:36

(Agree/Disagree?)
(reply to this comment
From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 14:24

(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL! That's the ex we all know and love! : )(reply to this comment
From banal_commentator
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:41

(Agree/Disagree?)
3 or 4 months? Is that not a bit soon? (reply to this comment
From insecure
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:18

(
Agree/Disagree?)

This stuff's a big help. I need more advice from women --preferably over 25 -- on how to refine and upgrade my "act." I'm trying to break out of routines that aren't working.

Please, no advice from men. I already have lots.

Specifically, I need advice on acceptable ways to hit on women without appearing to do so, or doing so in a desireable way.

Also, how do I ask permission in an acceptable way without blatently asking permission? For me, everything has to be consensual, but regularly asking permission has not been working.

I've been told that deep down, women like the caveman approach, but that can also end up with sexual assault charges. I really don't want to be a prison bitch.

Question: Do women really want to be seduced, and if so, what's the way to go about it?

Oh, and how do I compensate for a less than perfect body? (Yeah, I know I'm the only one)

What are the major minefields to avoid?

What fundamentally works for you? Intellectual engagement, hot bod? What stirs interest and ultimately, desire?

THIS IS A CRY FOR HELP!

All replies will be held in strictest confidence. :)(reply to this comment

From Joe H
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 15:28

(Agree/Disagree?)

Sorry if you've been getting bad advice from men, but women, for the most part, aren't going to give you very good advice either. Most women don't know what they want, they just think they do. I think you need to listen to what this guy has to say:

http://www.askmen.com/dating/doclove_150/179_relationship_expert.html

(reply to this comment

From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:40

(Agree/Disagree?)

Don't be afraid to let a woman know your hitting on her! She'll probably be flattered and if she's not, well, there are plenty more where that one came from.

And exactly what are you asking permission for? (reply to this comment

From insecure
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:54

(
Agree/Disagree?)

Asking permission to get a little more personal, a little more intimate. There are different stages to intimacy, and you have to go stage by stage. So it is sort of getting the ok to step things up a bit.

I'm a consensual type of guy. It's difficult at times, when the hormones are out of control, but consensuality is my goal. So that's what I mean by asking permission.

Another question: Touching. Where is it ok to touch? First date or whatever, what are the neutral places I can touch a woman --like even if she doesn't like me, she won't get pissed off? I've been told that the shoulder is pretty safe.

Then where are the little more personal places? If you could sort of give me a continuum of places to touch, going from neutral to somewhat initimate (excluding the obvious, such as breast-grabbing), that would be a big help.

(reply to this comment

From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 14:38

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Sounds to me like you need to stop worrying about being so consensual and start being more sensual. You've got to just chill and go with the flow. Look at her eyes, is she looking at you, leaning into you, playing with her hair, crossing her legs towards you? Those are just a few clues as to if she's interested.

On the first date, its best to be more on the conservative side, but it just depends on the girl and the connection you two have. Try holding hands on the first date and giving her a hug when its over. Hands on her back are fine, but no furthur south. Above all, just be yourself, be honest if your shy or nervous. It can be a nice break from the smooth cocky asses so many of us encounter.(reply to this comment

From Shackled
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 19:18

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Does she laugh at your jokes? After 30 minutes or an hour has passed does she find reasons to touch your hands or arm, etc... Does she listen to what you're saying and even pipe in at times when most woman would die of boredom? I think joys advice of being more sensual will help you. Also,not worrying about what has happened yet and enjoying the moment will help. If you feel like you're being graded then you'll be to nervous to be yourself. I'm very shy when around a girl I adore and sometimes letting her know has helped. She knows you're human and is herself human, no matter how beautiful. If she wants perfection then why would you want to be with her. Sorry if I've drifted from the question. (reply to this comment
From
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 14:52

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(
Agree/Disagree?)
And make sure not to be wasted, because that's when you really are at risk of engaging in non-consensual stuff.(reply to this comment
From Vicky
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 14:10

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

To me, touching the shoulder comes across as quite patronising. Maybe that's an old fam. thing, though - didn't you just hate all that fake affection? - Esp. after a huge 'correction' when they'd try to tell you that actually they really loved you...

I don't know. I haven't had any experience in real dating since I was already married when I left TF. I would think that this is one of those questions it's hard to give an overall answer to, as each woman will have a different idea of what is acceptable, according to how she was brought up and any experiences she may have had.

I would say that probably you shouldn't be too touchy-feely on your first date, I think it comes across as a bit familiar, or desperate.

I think perhaps the smartest thing to do is to get a book on body language. If you take time to study the fundamentals of body language it is actually quite easy to read the signals people are giving you. Body language is something that most people can't fake so it is generally a much more accurate indication of a person's feelings than what they are saying.

(reply to this comment

From banal_commentator
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:34

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Be agressive, be very very agressive. BUT, don't be creepy! (reply to this comment
from Joe H
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:07

(Agree/Disagree?)

First, let me quibble semantics with you for a minute: Are women a 'challenge'? I think you mean "are women complicated?", and my answer is "not very". If you really take the time to see things from their point of view, you'll figure it out. Just keep in mind that they aren't motivated by the same things men are. Does that help?


(reply to this comment)

From Wolf
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 11:56

(Agree/Disagree?)
Iím guessing Marcus isnít asking for help, just trying to pick a fight.(reply to this comment
From cagey
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 11:14

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Women love flattery, as do men. They also love a man who can make them laugh. If you are bad at both, lots of money spent on them and a hot body will ease the pain of getting to know each other = finding out if they are good in bed. (reply to this comment
From Joe H
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 12:25

(Agree/Disagree?)
Uh yeah, thanks, but I don't think more cliches are going to get us anywhere. I bet you also think women like shy, sweet guys who bring them flowers on the first date. (reply to this comment
From cagey
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 12:55

(
Agree/Disagree?)
flowers yes, shy no (but no but anyone can pretend), sweet yes but with some personality. (reply to this comment
From Vicky
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:11

Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3.5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

Speaking of 'romantic' gestures, I think flowers (and chocolates) can be a bit of a cop-out! I mean, it doesn't take much effort to think that up, does it? I'd be much more impressed if the guy tried to be original and think up a gift that was personal to me, something that he knew I would love because it's just so 'me'. This of course would require him to listen when I express myself and my feelings/hopes/ dreams, pay attention to the nuances of my personality, think about what sort of things I have been talking about in past weeks, etc. That's what makes a man attractive - Taking the time to *think* instead of just rushing out and buying the first bouquet of flowers he happens to come across.(reply to this comment

From Wolf
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 21:25

(Agree/Disagree?)
As Stifler would say ďthat sounds like a lot of fucking workĒ.(reply to this comment
From Shackled
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 19:20

(
Agree/Disagree?)
On a first date I'll stick with the flowers. If we've been friends for a while and I know alot about her then a different gift would be better. Maybe you weren't refering to first dates.(reply to this comment
From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:34

Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
I get what your trying to say, Vicky, and I agree with you, but if a guy brings me flowers, I can't help but think he's a sweetheart. Esp. in the beggining when he may not know me very well and everything I like and don't like. You may be right about the cop-out, but a lot of guys genuinely don't know what we want. Flowers may be an easy choice, but at least it shows that they are thinking about us and what we want. Guys often are sooo afraid to piss us off (or maybe just me??? :P) that they will take the easy route just to be safe. I think it's sweet and I appreciate the gesture.(reply to this comment
From Vicky
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 13:44

(Agree/Disagree?)
I see your point. I wasn't talking about a tentative or relatively new relationship, really, as of course it's a little different if he hardly knows you and he still makes the effort to do something sweet and considerate. There is also the financial side to look at - I always find it infuriating when newspapers report in gushing terms on the latest 'generosity' of some celebrity who bought his gf a new car or whatever; I think it's unfair to call that generosity since it didn't cost them much, and when looking at it that way I would say that a little gesture such as flowers can mean more than a flashy gift, depending on the circumstances.(reply to this comment
from Tiger
Friday, January 31, 2003 - 02:13

(Agree/Disagree?)
This article was funny...I don't see a nasty part really. I know a fair few guys who think women should be chained to the kitchen sink, one just long enough to reach the bed....+). And then I've heard women's plans for 'their' men and I don't see that either side is 'better or worse behaved'.

I dislike it when blanket statements are made about either sex. There are heroes and villians on both sides and sometimes people switch from one to the other overnight!!

It's an age old question. I think the answer lies somewhere in our having to come to terms with exactly what we are expecting from eachother and how much we are willing to compromise for the sake of a 'relationship'.

At the end of the day, women are weird, crazy, funny, smart, stupid, lovely, horrid...ad infinitum and so are men...so there isn't any surprise there. It makes for great conversation though, cuz your either one or the other....in most cases!!
(reply to this comment)
from Anthony
Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 16:53

(Agree/Disagree?)
Since this was posted by someone using the name Joker, I hope, perhaps rather naively, that this article is a joke. If it isn't a joke, I must say that this is the sort of thing which gives men in general a bad name,as far as women, in general, are concerned. Respect and understanding are two-way streets. Why can't we all just get along?

Anthony's Sadness
(reply to this comment)
from Nick
Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 10:02

(Agree/Disagree?)
I donít think that there is much of a great secret to dating women. Either they like you or they donít. Either you both jive and make a connection with that woman or you donít.

Itís doesnít hurt in you are a confident SOB and very secure.

This is not to say that emotionally women are not complicated an hard to understand sometimes.

(reply to this comment)
from Jules
Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 23:29

(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh Marcus. This is the great tragedy here (word up to JoeH). See, as fellow exers we could fill you in on the great secret of "what women really want".

It's amazingly simple, and guaranteed to work (just ask Alby--who figured it out for himself, while others pump iron and strive for "success", he, not literally, has to beat women off).

Unfortunately, when we are being called irrational, tempermental gold-diggers, I for one don't feel much like sharing.

(*stomps foot, pouts and storms off, leaving the tab to my date)
(reply to this comment)
From Nick
Monday, February 03, 2003, 10:34

(Agree/Disagree?)
Speaking of leaving the tab to your date, I find that most Xers women that have just left are not used to men taking them out and paying for them and for the most part have been appreciative. I have taken a few Xer women out and no matter if it's a date or just as friends, being the man I always feel obligated to pay the womanís tab. (No I don't classify that as chauvinist.) Anyway, the response from "new" exers has been nice, as the men in the cult tend to think that a bottle of Boon's Farm and a rented movie is splurging on a woman.(reply to this comment
From .
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 18:07

(
Agree/Disagree?)
Nick, now I totally understand why you resent having to pay support to your ex, since you have all these tabs to pick up! What a sweet, generous soul.(reply to this comment
From itsxena2u
Wednesday, May 12, 2004, 17:50

(Agree/Disagree?)
You haven't taken me out yet? How 'bout Friday night around 7? OK? great! I'ts a date! Oh, I'm so happy!(reply to this comment

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