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from jjb Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 09:54 (Agree/Disagree?) The fact that most fam young people are so institutionalized (at least the ones I know) should be the primary issue. The fam seems to love it that it's young people esp in the 3rd world scared shitless in moving out because the fam style of being laid back, getting 3 squares and sex with no questions (cuz it's a commandment) has made them complacent and lacking the personal drive you need to do well. plus the fact that out there is well the fucking 3rd world where u won't survive too well on your own. Lot's of ex-fam do prettty well considering the lack of any normal backgrounds eg education, because they have learned to set goals, plan, and perservere. As a green ex-member I really don't recallin the fam hearing any sort of postive testimonies of people who didn't get involved in the underworld, druggies, jailed,became trash whores, or even worse committed sucide, and hearing these stories can do any decent person off to leaving or starting anything. Hope you all get my drift. Peace to all and have a merry christmas. (reply to this comment)

From AUSSIE Tuesday, December 24, 2002, 22:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, i get your drift, what you say is true, however this is also a big topic and covers many smaller issues, like the 'jelousy' thing you'll find below. Perhaps you would do well to note that there is a difference between institutionalim and cultism, the two are related however they are not synonnmomous. Take boarding schools for example, they are institutions and many techniques employed in this system were adopted by TF, however the family's cultist envirnment removes it from the catagory of a mere institution. Keep in mind that society as a whole may be classed as an institution, although it operates on a entirely different level to TF. Take the products of the Cathloic Boarding Schools, the people brought up in this environment were able to abjust to society and find jobs etc, beacuse they were designed to fit into the system as a whole. TF has attempted to create it's own society/institution, thus we find ourselves 'institutionalized'. So I agree with you in that we were/are institutionalized to an extent, but the majority of the issies go far deeper that this abstract generalization. Peace...oh yeah, merry Christmas...and all that... AUSSIE(reply to this comment)

from Anthony Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 16:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, the cult is very Christian, and herein lies the problem with Christianity. When was the last time you read the Epistles of Paul to the early Christians? I hope a very long time, but if you remember what many of them dealt with, you'll see what I mean. In fact, much of the shaping of the Church came from Paul's own views and not Christ's. Christianity is an inherently flawed morality, this becomes clear when one care to "dig deeper". Aussie, I do agree with much of your analysis, other than this one. Regards, Anthony (reply to this comment)

From AUSSIE Tuesday, December 24, 2002, 22:52 (Agree/Disagree?) DUDE i dont know where you did your digging, may i suggest that your logic is flawed.. TF is not christian, the logic is childishly simple, Christianity is based on the bible, a group who claims to be christian, yet does not follow The Book, is not what it claims to be....i guess we'll have to agree to disagree....but just out of interest, please let me know where you did your digging and on what basis to you make this statment... later AUSSIE(reply to this comment)

From Lets see... Thursday, October 07, 2004, 06:49 (Agree/Disagree?) The church used to be all powerfull and use a book (Mo letters) in place/name of God- the bible. They didn't like you to be literate, they distroyed anything that went against what they said. ( Only allowed to read mo letters) Christian west hates gays and now Africa are trying to misionise the west. Woman submit to thy husband.(also a fundimental tactic used by berg.If only zerby had reacted in another way but no she backed this fycker.) Concubines and many wifes in the bible.(same in TF) The concept of childhood has only been around for 50+ yrs. Children were used for sex, slavory, freak shows, wars etc (TF still has no concept of childhood other wise we'd have had one.) Kings were automatically linked to God, being their mouth piece, head of the church-hereditory succsesions. (Berg same also. Davidito was his heir untill he did a cromwell) Class system. (TF had it's WS'ers and footsoilders) One had a bit of choice one had none. The seperation of church and state, science and religion has erroded all those good little perks that kept them in control. What the cults do now religion has already bought the t-shirt, wrote the book, but can no longer get away with. Woman and blacks have the vote, children are more valued, all of christianities past victims now have a choice. As society was progressing our bloody parents run of and join a place that put us right back in the dark ages.(don't forget we were preparing for war, remember the silent airplanes the men with guns bla bla but instead of 15 virgins or everlasting life in heaven we got a magic finger, flying horses and keys, so much more savory then a sword don't you think?) Rant over!! (reply to this comment)

From Christian Sunday, December 22, 2002, 11:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Aussie, youre quite correct - the family is Satanist, and there is nothing remotely Christian about it. And I think its interesting that you compare Berg to Solomon. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Sunday, December 22, 2002, 23:36 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL! Mind informing us who invented the idea of Satan?(reply to this comment)

from JoeH Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 13:43 (Agree/Disagree?) isn't it pretty elitist to say that we're all screwed up and don't "get" monogamy while implying that you do? Were you raised in a different cult? Are you somehow better than the rest of us? How can you make this kind of generalization? Everything else you said was pretty accurate, though not exactly original. Incidentally, I had to learn about monogamy the hard way, so you may have a point with your first paragraph. (reply to this comment)

From AUSSIE Thursday, December 19, 2002, 20:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry to have mislead you JoeH. Yes, I do believe that many, not all of us, are or were screwed up, but this doesn't mean that we can’t learn and implement changes based on a different viewpoint and a change of lifestyle. It is entirely normal for people to have a number of different partners throughout their lifetime, as they search for their ‘perfect’ match. This is not the issue. I myself left the group when I was 12 years of age, I attended three different high schools and I had plenty of time to adjust to the socially acceptable, and may I add normal, method of courtship. It is normal for young people to have a number of partners, but it is obvious that when someone ‘cheats’ on their current partner, the other party is hurt, usually ending the relationship. I know I was hurt plenty of times, and I hurt others as well. This is unavoidable. Feelings of jealousy and betrayal are entirely normal and in my opinion, they are constructive towards the natural development of character, allowing one to see the need for monogamy, respect for your partner and eventually, maybe, LOVE. One of the ‘rites of passage’ so to speak, leading towards, hopefully, a healthy respect for others and their feelings. I believe however that the communal environment compounds the problems faced by young people in TF. For example, two people are together, it ends. In normal society, the two ex-lovers, after taking new partners, would usually no longer desire to continue any regular contact. However in TF this is impossible, unless you request to change ‘Homes’, so every day you have this, perhaps painful memory, thrown in your face. How does this allow people to heal and carry on with their lives? This leads me to the point, which I may not have made clear in my article. To avoid the unavoidable hurt, they suppress their natural feelings, perhaps a form of puppy LOVE, and eventually become so calloused to them that they no longer feel anything but LUST. So when a young person decides to leave the group, they inevitably find themselves disadvantaged, and as you pointed out, 'had to learn the hard way'. Peace AUSSIE (reply to this comment)

From JoeH Thursday, December 19, 2002, 20:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree, you make some good points. But while jealousy may in fact be "normal," does that make it good? Selfishness and greed are also normal but does that mean that mindless corporate capitalism is the way to run the world? The merits and relevance of jealousy could be a good discussion topic. What you said about not wanting to see the other person after breaking up was interesting. It seems to me that a lot of women think that trying to be your friend after they rip your heart out is somehow going to make you feel better, when the last thing you want is to be reminded of the pain. I know women who do this, and try to do it to me, and I'm extremely against it. One girl specifically thinks all her exboyfriends are her "friends" and I keep telling her to leave the poor bastards alone. (reply to this comment)

From AUSSIE Thursday, December 19, 2002, 20:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Well said!!! Yes it is an interesting topic and i am sure many people have different ideas and viewz on it. i would be interseted to hear them.. Ok, i see your point about jealousy. Maybe jealousy in that sence is good in that it keeps people open to the idea that they are eventully bound for monogamy, it helps them to see that they need it, they want it, it is a natural end to the whole process. Look at it like this, if you have no problem with your wife/partner screwing around on you, then you are not jealous, and you may also be a member of some cult, or maybe your just NOT NORMAL!! On the other hand, if you do feel jealous, then shouldnt this feeling demonstrate your Love for the other person. Note that the jealousy i refer to is of YOUR partner, not someone else's partner. Yes, this is a problem hey....i totally agree with you regarding your last paragraph, although it is not always the girl who, just wants to be friends. From my personal experience, it is usually the hurt party who wishes to termonate any relations. i experenced this with one of my g-friends in high school, she discovered something that i had written about her in an email to a mate. anyway, she was really hurt and she broke up with me, but she never explained why, she then proceeded to distance me and made an effort to put me down etc....i only discovered the reason for her obveous dislike for me years later, after we finnished high school!!! it finally made sence then, but for 3 years i couldnt understand it. i wanted to be friends, maybe even get back together some day, and she wanted nothing to do with me because she was so hurt... Anyway i gtg, work to be done... AUSSIE(reply to this comment)

From The Pedantic Prick Thursday, October 07, 2004, 18:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Technically, you can't be jealous of someone else's partner. That would be ENVY, not jealousy. I realize that pansy-assed, liberal-descriptivist dictionaries allow that 'jealousy' can sometimes be synonymous with 'envy,' but I'm the Pedantic Prick, so I must insist on retaining this (very useful) distinction between the two words. Ta-ta(reply to this comment)

from PompousJohn Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 10:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Aussie, I had wanted myself to write an essay pointing out the many contradictions between TF’s beliefs and the bible. I wasn’t going to spend quite so much time on the sexual beliefs, because these have always been quite a stretch, so much so that even TF prefers not to discuss it with outsiders, indeed has even gone so far as to try to deny their beliefs on many occasions, rather than to attempt to defend or justify it from a biblical standpoint. While I was in TF I was quite the “word warrior” I knew my bible pretty well and worked hard to find biblical justifications for many of TF’s stranger beliefs in terms that would satisfy inquisitive or antagonistic outsiders. Since the bible has always been more of a tool than a guidebook for religious groups that claim to adhere to it, this was of course pointless but it occupied my time. There are some reasons I haven’t bothered to get into it at any great length and these are: 1) There are so MANY contradictions I wouldn’t know where to start. 2) I am not a Christian; currently I am neutral on the subject of religion. If forced at gunpoint to classify my beliefs I would say I am something of a transitory agnostic with occult interests. Surely there are many church groups who would love to write lengthy volumes on just how far TF has strayed from the “Word of God” and the fact that no one would read them would not bother them as much as it would me. 3) TF claims that their private “revelations” take precedence over the Bible, and only bothers to justify its beliefs from a biblical standpoint when trying to sway the opinion of people who do believe the bible. As to your comments on jealousy, I think monogamous relationships are ideal, I’m in one now and am happy with it, but I don’t think being locked into a no-exceptions monogamous relationship for life is necessarily the end-all, be-all state for everybody. My best guess is that this tendency in society is some sort of an echo of a primal state in human development that goes back to when women were the “property” of their men and “adultery” was more a theft of private property than a betrayal of true love. “Thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife NOR HIS ASS” leaving the last three words of the sentence on rather than ignoring it helps us to understand that the same society that was so insistent on monogamous relationships was also willing to lump a man’s wife in with his animals and other possessions. Well those are my two cents, good job on the essay by the way. (reply to this comment)

From AUSSIE Thursday, December 19, 2002, 20:24 (Agree/Disagree?) King John, Thanks for the input. Yes I know, I barely scratched the surface of the issue, and your right, where DO you start. I feel that you probably are on the right track when you talk about being able to write a book on that subject, but no one would read it...and I cant be bothered... Yes, I saw your picz, well done, I’m sure you are very happy, now I can see where you got that inflated ego from...errr...nice chick... Yeah, I don’t claim to be Christian, maybe a non-practicing-Christian would be more accurate, but as far as the TF goes, I think it should be painfully obvious to anyone who reads the bible that TF is not Christian...simple really. I think you may have misunderstood my point on jealousy, perhaps I shouldn’t have used that verse to backup my argument, yes, it does end like that, and yes, I understand how the biblical society operated at the time. My point has nothing to do with jealousy of another persons Property, rather I was referring to jealousy in the context of relationships, someone you thought you had connected with and reciprocated your feelings, runs of a week later to fuck the next guy/girl waiting in line, and when you feel hurt, you are reminded that 'jealousy' is bang outta order. Perhaps if you substituted jealousy with emotion, it would make more sense, or maybe not.. Whatever. Later, King John I Salute You. Peace AUSSIE (reply to this comment)

From Sanders Wednesday, April 16, 2003, 15:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think there was enough Christianity thrown in to deceive many members into thinking the F. doctrines are based on the Bible. How else would many of us followed them? It always bugged me that the Bible was secondary to the Mo and Mamma letters. They would take one or two verses and base whole letters or doctrines on them (exactly what they accused the churches of doing!). Whenever I'd ask about why the Bible was rarely read by most members, the excuse was that we already knew enough of the Bible. Plus who needs the old truth when there are so many new revelations, right?   One time (about a year before leaving) I wrote Mamma and asked her why, if the F. was such a good tree, did it bare such bad fruit? It was a long letter with numerous examples. Needless to say, I never did get a reply. (reply to this comment)

From JoeH Thursday, December 19, 2002, 20:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't remember the "Or his ass" part. Is it really there? Or are you both stoned?(reply to this comment)

From AUSSIE Thursday, December 19, 2002, 20:46 (Agree/Disagree?) yeah, its there... no i havent been stoned for years now...;p AUSSIE(reply to this comment)