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from Dad Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 08:56 (Agree/Disagree?) All I can say is that you guys are all wrong. Im right and thats it. "I am The way, The truth, and The light." PTL? (reply to this comment)

From Hmmm? Monday, June 26, 2006, 11:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I dono.........(reply to this comment)

from Peter Friday, June 09, 2006 - 12:12 (Agree/Disagree?) I was planning to avoid commenting on this BS but I now feel I must. As usual, Jim LaMattery is completely full of shit. He spent much of last year harassing, threatening and intimidating child abuse victims (including some who testified against the Family in several court cases) and accusing those who refused to have anything to do with him (a mortgage broker, not a law enforcement officer) of "obstruction of justice." He publicly and prematurely announced an FBI investigation that should not have been made public until the agency determined that such an announcement was appropriate and would not compromise the investigation. Despite repeated suggestions (from the FBI and others) that he not discuss the investigation publicly, he did so and thus helped sabotage its progress by giving TFI leaders an opportunity and a reason to destroy and conceal evidence, hide witnesses, flee to other countries, etc. For these and many other reasons he has managed to alienate virtually everyone in the ex-member "community." His apparent infinite capacity to offend people and act like an arrogant, ignorant, mean and paranoid asshole most of the time resulted in him being temporarily banned from exFamily.org, MovingOn and other sites. A number of ex-members have gone so far as to block his email address and phone numbers. Rather than recognizing that he may have some problems with interpersonal relationships that he needs to work on and that he has offended and hurt many people that he needs to *sincerely* apologize to, he has instead chosen to indulge in paranoid delusions and attack some of the people who have done more than he ever has to expose child abuse and other criminal activity in TF. For example, one of the five people he has accused of having "particularly strong motives to stop the flow of information to authorities and discredit any actions [he takes] to that end" and remaining "silent" is Ed Priebe. Jim is clearly living in some sort of alternate universe where travelling thousands of miles to another continent to testify under oath against The Family is the same as remaining silent. In Jim's world it seems that giving sworn testimony that resulted in Argentina and Interpol issuing an arrest warrant (on September 15, 1993) for David Berg means that one is remaining silent and protecting The Family. Incredibly, Jim seems to believe that taking out trunks and suitcases full of incriminating video tapes, documents and literature from a Family storage facility and making them available to others who made them available to media outlets, courts and law enforcement agencies around the world is equivalent to "stopping the flow of information." If Jim is this wrong about one of the five people he is attacking, then it seems quite likely that he is dead wrong about all of them. In any case, I don't think any of these people need to explain themselves or account for their actions to someone like Jim LaMattery. (reply to this comment)

From boards browser Friday, June 09, 2006, 19:59 (Agree/Disagree?) This Internet drama Jim seems determined to further has been going on far too long. He has been banned from Exfamily.org more than once now. I doubt they'll let him post again any time soon, as every time they've done so in the past he's managed to piss most everybody off within a few days (for the reasons outlined by Peter, above). Their admin apparently isn't amused and posted his take on the situation here: http://www.exfamily.org/ppl/pages/Jim-LaMattery.htm (reply to this comment)

From Erin Saturday, June 10, 2006, 07:49 (Agree/Disagree?) That article is probably one of the best descriptions I've ever seen of this complex, disturbed man. The link in the article to the exfamily discussion board on the topic of the passing of an SGA and Jim's response is also excellent. I think both the article linked above and the discussion thread about Jim's actions since David's death should be an article here. They make it very clear how dangerous this man is. He is even more dangerous here on movingon a site full of traumatized young cult victims.(reply to this comment)

From Haunted Monday, June 19, 2006, 12:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't get access to this post at work - can you post a transcript?(reply to this comment)

From Captain America - To the rescue! Monday, June 19, 2006, 14:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Jim LaMattery Fighting The Family International Leaving a trail of collateral damage? article by WC Jim LaMattery is on a roll. Fighting to expose The Family International, he follows the money and reveals his latest find—a big California real estate purchase (almost $1 million) by leaders of The Family International, formerly known as The Children of God. This is big news. After all, this is an organization that solicits your donations for "charity work" through their front organizations, masquerading as NGOs. The Family cult , like most other groups typically characterized as cults, has members living near or below the poverty line—they call it "living by faith." Even those on a day-to-day hand-to-mouth subsistence and who do not even pay taxes, are required to tithe 10-14% of their gross income in order to remain in the inner circle. One of the central tenets of this notorious sex cult—which prefers nowadays to be known as a New Religious Movement with alternative views and counter culture —is that true disciples must "forsake all." Forsaking all literally means selling all they have and handing in their money to their leaders. More than that, forsaking all means cutting ties with any and all family and friends that get in the way. "We're talking complete estrangement, disappearing without leaving a forwarding address" describes one ex-member. Disciples assume a new biblical name and identity—true legal names are kept a secret even from each other. It is deep cover role play, without any possibility of debriefing—some members who joined as teenagers in the late 60s are still missing today. In the aftermath of the cultic experience Robbed of their identity, familial ties and financial safety net, potential departees have no plausible means of retreat should they change their minds. They continue on their course whole-heartedly, making the best of their situation, thinking positively about the group and putting away their doubts. Many stay in, trapped for years, even decades, losing themselves completely and participating in previously unthinkable deeds. Fortunately, some do make it out. Although cries of "brainwashing" are no longer politically correct, exiting the high-control group has never been easy. After years of isolation from mainstream society and living by their own rules, members go through years of detoxing, learning to normalize. Many suffer from Post Traumatic Stress, and those looking for compensation find themselves without recourse. Bringing The Family International to justice For decades, defectors have been telling stories of criminal activity in The Family—prostitution rings, child trafficking, child abuse, child sexual abuse, criminal neglect, violation of labor laws, document fraud, immigration fraud, tax fraud, plagiarism and intellectual property theft, etc. However, to date, bringing leaders of The Family to justice remains an elusive task—its leaders live in hiding under assumed names. Founder David Berg who fled the US, was tried in absentia, owing a plaintiff $1 million in damages. Even rank and file members who committed crimes were too often known only by their assumed biblical names. Following their leaders' examples and uprooting frequently to avoid the law, individuals are almost impossible to locate and subpoena. Matters of jurisdiction and statutes of limitation complicate the process even more. In 1978, in the wake of the Jonestown suicides, to avoid prosecution and bad press, the Children of God faked a disbanding and renamed themselves The Family of Love... then The Family, and most recently, The Family International. The name game does not end there—The Family International now masquerades as a series of world-wide charities, soliciting donations for "NGO work." The Family International cleaned up, shredding and burning incriminating documents and directives, hiring PR consultants and launching its new wholesome "christian" family values image, and began working proactively to bury its notorious past. Against this setting, there have been a few hard-earned victories. Fighting back Since the early 70s, The Children of God has been exposed in the press and on TV—ex-members from America to Hong Kong, New Zealand to Greece, devoting endless months of time and risking their reputations to speak out. These early activists acted alone out of pure conviction that the public should know the truth about the cult. In the early 1990s, police raided The Family's communities in Spain, France, Australia and Argentina. A crucial court case developed in England, and the exposé intensified. Dozens of courageous ex-members began standing up to The Family, speaking out to the media—television, radio, newspapers and magazines—the police, FBI and other law enforcement agencies. Some testified in court cases and gave depositions. Hundreds more offered moral and tactical support. The ex-member community, without any "leader," was nevertheless standing up and speaking out when it mattered most. As a result, major reforms were forced on The Family (such as The Charter) to ensure—at least on paper—basic human rights for its members and the complete cessation of child-adult sexual activities. In the mid and late 90s, when the Internet gained critical mass, several ex-member websites appeared. Ex-members formed online communities and began coordinating their efforts, building support systems and telling their stories. Scores of SGs (2nd generation members who were born into the cult but never chose to join) began pooling together at movingon.org to support one another and seek justice. In 2005, the murder-suicide of Ricky Rodruiguez shocked the world. Heir apparent and son of The Family International's current leader Karen Zerby, Ricky Rodriguez made a 56-minute suicide video, in which he talked about his pain from the sexual, physical and mental abuse he suffered, and about his frustration trying to bring the leaders of the cult to justice. Media and law enforcement interest in the cult reached an all time high. Insider workings were revealed as scores of 1st and 2nd generation ex-members were motivated more than ever to speak out. Jimmy come lately Like a self-appointed vigilante in a one-horse town, man of action James Stephen LaMattery, known as Jim LaMattery, arrived on the scene in 2005, guns blazing, determined to administer "justice," ... and hurting the very ex-members he claimed to be trying to help. Although many ex-members had already made and were still making huge sacrifices to expose The Family, Jim LaMattery accused them of inaction. Jim LaMattery had spent 5 years in the cult, leaving in 1975 to rebuild his life. He remained uninvolved with ex-member affairs during the 30 years that followed, while other ex-members paid the cost of exposing The Family. When American TV screens were flooded with graphic exposures of the sex cult, Jim LaMattery was nowhere to be found. Perhaps blissfully unaware that any of this was happening, he (falsely claims to have?) completed a Comparative Literature degree at San Diego State University, and established a Mortgage Company and Real Estate firm in San Diego, California—the benefits of which he enjoys today. The Ricky Rodriguez murder-suicide in January 2005 supposedly caught Jim LaMattery's attention for the first time, and finally spurred him into action. Arriving on the scene during talk-show and reality TV era, Jim LaMattery seemed to assume a self-appointed role of media leadership and appeared on television several times. Most notably, he appeared on Dr. Phil with his daughter, where he displayed such calloused behavior he shocked viewers around the world. To the bafflement of an ex-member community already struggling with trauma over having been abused—guilt, shame, pain, trust issues and difficulties of reintegrating into society—Jim LaMattery repeatedly retraumatized them with his belligerence and misdirected aggression. Complaints about his pushiness and threatening demeanor only served to bring on more guilt-pouring and accusations on his part. Asked why he was threatening other ex-members who did not "cooperate" with him, he replied that he did not utter threats, but merely warned . Grieving widows—an opportunity for profit? According to Jim LaMattery, the murder-suicide of heir apparent Ricky Rodruiguez in January 2005, caught his attention for the first time, and moved him to act. And act immediately, he did. One of Jim LaMattery's first actions was to visit the grieving widow of Ricky Rodriguez at her most vulnerable—only a few days after her husband's death—when he convinced her to sign a contract granting him exclusive rights to write the story of Ricky's life and the murder-suicide. Under the agreement, Jim LaMattery would receive 30% of all earnings from the story. The widow eventually realized what she had been talked into and sent Jim a letter via her attorney, revoking the coerced agreement. When the entire ex-member community was disgusted at what Jim LaMattery had done, he explained how he was actually trying to protect her from media predators. Jim's motives for speaking out have repeatedly been brought under scrutiny by ex-members. When asked if he was planning on using the publicity and collected affidavits for personal gain he repeatedly denied it. Later it was revealed he had been in the process of writing a novel about the cult, and could in fact benefit from it all. A very late wake-up call for Jim LaMattery In 1993, scandalous sex videos produced by The Family began surfacing in the media, exposing the cult's criminal practices. Copies were sent to police officials. The videos became crucial pieces of evidence in court cases, virtual proof of the stories ex-members told on the witness stand. Millions of people across America, Europe and around the world who saw portions of the videos were livid. Jim LaMattery, perhaps too busy enjoying the American dream to be aware of the existence of these videos, suddenly found out about them in 2005 and was outraged that those who had copies of the videos had supposedly "withheld" them from the authorities. Que? Just how furious??? Jim LaMattery was so furious he began talking openly on his website about going out and buying a gun to take vengeance on the cult. For ex-members who fought for the exposure of the cult during those years at great personal cost, Jim LaMattery's mood swings and accusations of inaction were flippant, to say the least. When most of these departees began speaking up, there was none of the public awareness that there is now, nor legions of SGs grown up enough to corroborate what a few were saying to denounce the cult's practices. They did not have personal resources and were suffering the effects of having been in a cult for a considerable amount of time. While getting your face on TV and attaching your image to that of the cult is a high price to pay for anyone, and while many ex-members do respect his courage, they also point out that conversely, Jim "you-are-not-doing-as-much-as-me" LaMattery is operating out of a relatively safe base, now that the ground has been prepared. Jim LaMattery may have missed that cue when stepping on the stage: The landscape has altered dramatically—a new generation has come of age and taken ownership of the battle—young adults born in the cult are speaking for themselves. They do not need Jim LaMattery or anyone from their parents' generation to speak for them, much less lead them. If FGs still have an important part to play, perhaps it is more and more a supporting role. Point man for FBI investigation? With his apparent consuming desire to be center stage, Jim LaMattery seemed to assume false credit as the sole initiator of a recent FBI investigation into The Family's crimes. Although the investigation was already underway before Jim LaMattery came along, he attempted to seize control of it. He relayed misleading and inaccurate information, and acted as though law enforcement could not investigate crimes on their own, but depended on his coordination efforts. Making himself the "point person" contrary to all FBI policy and procedure, Jim LaMattery insisted that all affidavits of abuse be sent directly to him. He assured contributors that he would then forward them on to the FBI agent in charge of the case. Soon however, he began revealing names without consent and refusing to answer how he would be using the affidavits—many of which could potentially be turned against the signatories themselves as blackmail. A typical taunt he made was why anyone with such incriminating information had done nothing about it earlier—thereby implying that they were covering up their own crimes and guilty of collaboration. Jim LaMattery further contravened FBI operating procedures, by announcing publicly that an investigation was underway. Without authorization, Jim LaMattery then set himself up as the spokesperson for the FBI, giving "press releases" re: the state of the investigation. He refused to give the contact information for the agent in charge of the investigation, but other ex-members eventually found out for themselves, and began contacting the agent directly. Several SGs later discovered that the information Jim LaMattery was disseminating about the FBI investigation was misleading. When they explained to him that they did not wish to arbitrarily turn over information to him, but would rather work directly with investigators, he accused them of trying to derail him to protect their own parents. Those who had initially welcomed a man of action, entrusting him with their support, now protested his lack of scrupulosity. But intolerant of criticism, Jim LaMattery began to do battle with the very constituents he claimed to be advocating for. He tried to stifle their criticism by telling them they had nothing to say if they did not put their face on television as he had done. This methodology only served to remind ex-members of the very same manipulation techniques used in the cult. "You're not as white as snow" For Jim LaMattery to be able to hurl accusations at other ex-members, he has propagated the idea that he, unlike them, did not stay in the cult when things got bad—in fact he left just in the nick of time. Time in the cult, is a very relevant factor, according to Jim LaMattery, who looks back at his 1970-1975 tenure in the Children of God with fondness: "These people were beautiful, and we lived together, we shared. We loved differently from the rest of the world, and it turned bad." Jim LaMattery has repeatedly stated that all ex-members who remained in the cult after 1975 are tainted and guilty, while he is not—anyone else who stayed after he wised up and left is guilty for enabling the machinery of beast, which ended up harming scores of SGs, including his daughters; they have not done anything—or not nearly enough, compared to him—to expose the cult since leaving. Jim LaMattery claims to be innocent of collective crimes, personal crimes and any untoward behavior, and had to leave because he tried to prevent a rape from taking place—just when things started getting bad in the group, that is. A recap: When Jim LaMattery was in the group, it was good. When it turned bad he was not; and everyone should have left when he did. In December 2005, disturbing stories began surfacing of an ex-member who had suffered under the leadership of Jim LaMattery and his wife Chen in Scandinavia. They had sent away the very young child of an American citizen—literally sent the child to another country—against the wishes of the mother who wept and begged them not to do it. Jim LaMattery has adamantly denied being part of illegally transporting American children across international borders. He defends himself, saying that he was not a leader and not responsible, but that his wife was. His accuser couldn't disagree more. Appearing on Dr. Phil Perhaps Jim LaMattery was not around to get involved in exposing The Family from 1993-2005, because he was too busy fixing his own backyard, making up for lost time and catching up with his daughter? His appearance on Dr. Phil may have settled that question if there was one. In April 2005, Jim LaMattery arranged for himself and his daughter Kristi to be the main guests on the Dr. Phil show. Jim's intention was to focus on exposing the cult, but as direct questions began to be asked, Jim's own daughter began describing how Jim had re-traumatized her since she had left the cult. According to his own website, Jim LaMattery was reunited with his daughters in 1993 after they were held for 13 years in the cult. Their mother who remained in The Family, had gone against a court ruling that granted him sole custody, kidnapping them. Upon their reunion Jim LaMattery "slowed his business activity" in order to help his girls re-assimilate into secular life. Reading this, we could get the impression he was always being there for his daughter. Hearing what Kristi said on Dr. Phil however, we get the opposite impression: "I want a parent who wants to be a parent. That's all I'm asking," she said. "I don't think he ever wanted to be my dad. I think he wanted to be my friend. If I called him dad, he would be furious." Kristi felt that her father's intentions to reunite were financially motivated , explaining that Jim LaMattery was writing a book on his experiences in the cult, and how he wanted to interview his daughters for it. "His first question was 'What was some of the good stuff that you remember?' I stopped talking at that point because he had never made that big of a deal about the abuse, but he wanted to know the good stuff." Jim LaMattery's daughter struggles to forgive him for the abuse she suffered at the hands of the cult. "He's always said that this was the greatest experience in his life, having this experience with the group. Do you know how small that makes me feel? The greatest experience in my life was meeting my father." She articulated what other ex-members who have encountered Jim LaMattery basically feel: disempowerment at his hands; that he is aloof; that he makes decisions on her behalf without adequate consideration of the consequences; that he does not come to terms with his own behavioral traits; that he is sacrificing her for the "greater good" and doesn't really care about her. Video and transcript of documentary at: www.xfamily.org/index.php/Dr._Phil:_The_Family_Cult_Escapees Damage Control? Needless to say, Jim LaMattery's appearance on Dr. Phil was not a PR coup. How does Jim LaMattery undo this? He discounts her publicly within hours. Immediately following the Dr. Phil show, Jimmy LaMattery appeared on Channel 8 news remarking on the tense relationship with his daughter, saying that he hoped his daughter would seek the counseling Dr. Phil advised. Amazingly, Jim LaMattery had ignored or missed the fact that Dr. Phil blasted him for having given up on counseling: "What do you mean you got tired of doing the therapy!?" Dr. Phil asked. Jim LaMattery was also advised to seek counseling for himself and not to give up on it, but here he only mentioned his daughter needing help, and not himself. About 1 year later, Jim LaMattery posted on a public bulletin board that either he or his daughter (the wording is unclear, but by inference he means his daughter) suffers from DID, formerly known as MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder), and that he would never have appeared on TV with her had he known. In other words, as convincing as she was, she really wasn't quite herself when she appeared on TV criticizing him—that must have been one of Kristi's manufactued identities speaking. Although Jim LaMattery has in effect tried to invalidate or discredit everything his daughter said about him on TV, ex-members are not buying it. See discussion on GenX board and comment by a Licensed Social Worker Jim LaMattery banned from 3 ex-member sites When Jimmy-come-lately LaMattery continued trying to dominate the ex-member community, bullying and threatening those who did not cooperate with him, he was subsequently banned from posting on three major ex-member websites: movingon.org, exFamily.org, and NewDayNews.com Jules, creator of MovingOn.org (a website dedicated to SGs whose parents had joined the cult) wrote a definitive letter explaining why Jim was banned from their site: www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=1&Cat=31&ID=2818#38327 Apparently, Jim LaMattery threatened people while simultaneously publicly apologizing to them. He threatened to sue victims, to attack them in the media, to attack them online and in circulated emails to others. He harassed abuse victims to the point of their seeking legal counsel to protect themselves against him. When confronted, Jim LaMattery continued to hurl false allegations and attacks against abuse victims; he did not respect the privacy of individuals and insisted on contacting them against their wishes. Jim LaMattery did not take it well, when several SGs found out the information he was disseminating about the FBI investigation was misleading. When they explained to him that they did not wish to arbitrarily turn over information to him, but would rather work directly with investigators, he accused them of trying to derail him to protect their own parents. Apparently wanting to be the center of intrigue, Jim LaMattery asked that people write him privately and then insinuated that there was some hidden secret going on behind the scenes when people tried to accommodate him. A standard part of Jim LaMattery's abusive repertoire is demanding that those he has hurt directly confront him, with no thought to their own vulnerability or his triggering behavior. More on this at www.movingon.org/article.asp?Sid=2&Cat=50&ID=2899 exFamily.org was the site of the latest uproar, when Jim LaMattery posted unfounded malicious comments about a grieving family. In May 2006, when an SG had died of an overdose, Jim LaMattery attended the memorial. Without introducing himself or really knowing anyone there, he decided to investigate his "suspicions." He pieced together conversations and announced his conclusions on a public bulletin board, posting the full name of the deceased. Acting like Dick Tracy, like a wrong actor with the wrong script in the wrong movie, we can almost see him jotting this down in his spiral bound notepad: Cause of death? suicide due to untreated DID. Parents? unsupportive, not there for him; still in The Family; probably unaware of the complexity of his condition; did not do enough to prevent his death; Mother: not bothered to be there for son even in death. NOW I'M REALLY FED UP! Jim LaMattery with his delusions of grandeur, had taken the liberty of publishing conclusions that even the coroner hadn't arrived at . Various friends of the family who knew the real situation did their best to explain and called for Jim LaMattery to apologize. Instead, Jim LaMattery ignored all calls for an apology and talked incessantly about DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder, formerly known as MPD or Multiple Personality Disorder), surmised how the deceased suffered from the disease, and how a correct and early diagnosis would save many SG lives. Jim LaMattery would have you believe DID is lurking around the corner in just about all ex-members, and the leading cause of suicide. To date, no apology has been forthcoming, and the coordinators had to delete his posts to protect the privacy of the grieving family. A summary of related posts at: www.exfamily.org/chatbbs/genx/posts/27028.htm Although he had been banned several times, exFamily.org coordinators decided to give him a chance when Jim LaMattery reappeared with the latest news on the expose of Thomas Hack—a high-ranking leader in The Family International who recently purchased real estate for almost $900,000. On his previous ban, he was dubbed a "bulletin board Bruce Lee" for his habit of taking on and doing battle with dozens of outraged posters single-handedly—effectively hijacking the genX bulletin board with 100s of posts about himself. NewDayNews.com did not technically ban Jim LaMattery from posting, but banned him from posting news of his investigations and attempting to coerce others into joining him. Since he was asked to post only as a fellow ex-member seeking recovery or helping with other people's recovery, he has been scarce, and virtually stopped posting at NDN. Perhaps recovery and healing are not high on his list. In conclusion Getting banned from a site where fellow ex-members band together to support each other, is no small feat. Getting permanently barred from 3 is cause for concern—Jim LaMattery has definitely not earned the trust he desires. Perhaps hoping to avoid the negative image he created for himself, Jim LaMattery is starting a number of sites of his own, where references are never made to any of the other ex-member sites where he has created a ruckus and overstayed his welcome. It is clear that FGAs (First Generation Adults) who committed crimes against their own children—whether crimes of neglect, failure to protect, lack of education, sexual abuse of any kind or physical abuse—are guilty, and that if their now-grown SG (second generation) children wish to prosecute them for these things, they have every right to do so. SGs also have the right, in the interests of their own healing, to reconcile with their parents and make amends. Jim himself has agreed with this, stating: "As to your comment about SG's and parents making amends - this is absolutely important and I would never hinder such a process." However, the same day Jim reiterated his long-standing position: "I have been at direct odds with some in the SGA community over the prosecution of their parents. This is something that I will most likely always be at odds over." Jim LaMattery, in his push for "justice," is willing to disregard even the wishes and needs of the victims themselves. He could afford to listen to his daughter Kristi—that victims should be allowed to own their own process , decide for themselves when and where to tell their story, whether to forgive or prosecute or move on or remain undecided. Jim LaMattery cannot have it both ways—either he represents the constituents he claims to be advocating for, or he doesn't. Investigating The Family and the pursuit of leaders in hiding seems to be Jim LaMattery's forte. Human relations it would seem, is not. While most fellow ex-members appreciate his energy and tenacity, they are loath to deal with him because of his pugnacity. More than that, many given up trying to make him understand and come to terms with his own behavioral traits. He demands that those whom he has offended confront him, but does not consider his triggers or the victims' own vulnerability. Those that deal with Jim LaMattery should do so in caution. As ex-members, we want to see the FBI investigation succeed. We want to give aid and support in whatever ways we feel comfortable with, including working with Jim LaMattery or NOT. Nobody should be pressured into doing anything they do not feel comfortable about. We can only sincerely wish Jim LaMattery success in finding justice for his family. May he know who the real enemies are, and may he succeed in putting the real criminals behind bars. May he not haste to harm or do battle with any others. May he know that those who choose not to work with him are not automatically enemies guilty of collaboration and/or obstructing justice; nor are they deserving of his threats/warnings. Disclaimer: Sarcastic humor was used to soften some very serious matters. It may be naïve and too much to ask, but may Jim LaMattery step back and have a laugh at himself, reconsider his methods, and find a (better) way to reconcile with those he has offended, and move on. God knows he could use some allies, and we are all mostly fighting for the same causes. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, June 23, 2006, 10:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Reminds me of a piss take of Dennis Waterman from LITTLE BRITIAN 'You want me to sing the feme tune, write the feme tune, star in the feme tune...'(reply to this comment)

From Captain America Monday, June 19, 2006, 14:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Disclaimer: Captain America is completely uninvolved and neutral. Don't shoot the messenger. (reply to this comment)

From Thank you Mr. Expostition Friday, June 09, 2006, 16:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I was behind the times, Thanx for catching me up.(reply to this comment)

From John Jr. Friday, June 09, 2006, 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) When we went to the FBI last year they had very limited information, none of which was enough for a successful prosecution against TF. We told the agent that we were going to announce the investigation on the local news and boards to inform people outside of the US that the FBI was gathering information and putting together a case file against TF, they neither agreed or disagreed officially with our action, and felt that whatever encouraged victims to come forward, or more evidence to surface would be great. They even worked with us on the idea of the 15 most "wanted." The FBI now has everything they need except for a victim within the statute of limitations - something that we're currently working on. There is nothing to hide about this investigation, and the more information provided the better. When the investigation was announced on channel 8 news, the newscaster was indeed quoting the agent when she said, "The FBI believe that Jim LaMattery is a credible witness." For those people who thought that TF would pack up and leave because we announced the investigation, please see what Abner just bought and where he bought it. http://www.fpac.us/the-new-family-in-fallbrook-california Do you think that Priebe's apology (posted here on this site on Oct. 4, 2004) gives him a get outa jail free card if indeed he abused children or sgas during his 18 years in the group? (reply to this comment)

From Erin Saturday, June 10, 2006, 07:44 (Agree/Disagree?) "We told the agent that we were going to announce the investigation on the local news and boards to inform people outside of the US that the FBI was gathering information and putting together a case file against TF." - That's a new one. You went on local TV to tell people outside the country about the investigation? Sure it wasn't the need for self credit and glory that you revealed an investigation, which you had no part in starting, in its critical first stages?(reply to this comment)

from steam Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 11:43 (Agree/Disagree?) I think Jim proabbly has decent intentions. However there is no question that at least at the time of Ricky's passing he sought to profit financially from the story. If he had made it clear that any potential profit would be donated to charity especially for former abuse survivors that would be fine. But he himself was a member of this group (for a short while) and seeking now to profit from the story doesn't sit right with me. Will he now state that he will turn over any profits that he would like to make to abuse victims? I am not saying this has made him money. Only that that was some part of his initial motive, and he has not publicly forsworn it at this point. As far as they "Gang" I feel James Penn has seen his mistakes and is willing to do anything to correct them. Apollos and Heather et al, I am very dissapointed in. Their silence is sickening. However at the time they left they were probably still very conflicted and confused and this is a major advantage for "The Family" in that very few who eventually speak out do so at first. They are leaving friends and family and it is all very muddy and turbulant. But I would like to see these guys pull a "James Penn" speaking out about things, that goes for Isaac Numbers who left at that time too. (reply to this comment)

From Anything? Thursday, June 08, 2006, 17:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Steam, you said: " I feel James Penn has seen his mistakes and is willing to do anything to correct them". If you are correct that Penn would do anything to correct his mistakes, what if one of his mistakes was child abuse? Would he be willing to serve jail time? TF says an apology is enough, isn't that what No Regrets is? Just an apology with no consequences?(reply to this comment)

From steam Friday, June 09, 2006, 11:07 (Agree/Disagree?) You are right that my standards for some level of forgiveness are a little low, as evidenced by my thought process, of seeing someone who I have concluded (rightly or wrongly) is really torn up about his past involvement and has confessed and tried to work for some degree of rectification, and just feeling like I should forgive etc. There are several reasons for this. One is that compared to sooo many he has been prepared to go farther than almost enyone else in wanting to "fix" things. Two is kind of wierd. I think many of us have the experience of reading about some pedophile in the paper who got 10 years or whatever and being so pleased they got caught etc, and even wanting much worse to happen to such a person. But in looking back on an experience that happened to me I somehow don't automatically equate it as the same atrocious horror. Maybe I am the only one, but all those things did happen to me but I guess I had a "dissacoitive experiance" or something, I still see my overall childhood as extreme, but not that bad. Even though seeing the same thing happen to someone else or in a movie burns me up. This probably came out as a nonsensical muddle. Well I think I will just post it as is.(reply to this comment)

From Anthony666 Thursday, June 08, 2006, 14:07 (Agree/Disagree?) If James Penn was sincere, he wouldn't have waited the cult stipulated year of silence prior to pointing the finger at his former buddies and taking the hush-money.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, June 09, 2006, 09:43 (Agree/Disagree?) If Jim LaMattery sincerely believed TF was a criminal organization, he should have gotten his daughters out of there and reported the group to the authorities instead of ignoring it all for nearly 30 years.(reply to this comment)

From That's incorrect Friday, June 09, 2006, 15:55 (Agree/Disagree?) That's not exactly an accurate account of what happened. You can read the full custody story here http://www.lamatteryresource.org/letters/custody/ Jim first started fighting TF back in 1980, 26 years ago. (reply to this comment)

from Anthony Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 11:15 (Agree/Disagree?) It's amazing how few people realize the good Jim LaMattery has done and is doing, asking for nothing in return. (reply to this comment)

From Bella Saturday, June 24, 2006, 08:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Anthony - we both know that is not true.(reply to this comment)

From WTF Anthony? Thursday, June 22, 2006, 12:09 (Agree/Disagree?) What about the book? Don't be naive. (reply to this comment)

From reposting Thursday, June 08, 2006, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Jim LaMattery also gives nothing in return. He refuses to honor his word & pay $10–17,000 that he owes to his own niece, Windy and her husband, for setting up his two websites for him. See http://www.exfamily.org/chatbbs/genx/posts/27203.htm http://www.exfamily.org/chatbbs/genx/posts/27204.htm(reply to this comment)

From Bella Saturday, June 24, 2006, 08:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Exactly.(reply to this comment)

from Question Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I think we can have an intelligent conversation without getting into the LaMattery saga again. Can anyone confirm that Heather is also Pat or Pathway, the naked nanny of Davidito in the following links: http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Image:Dito_book_pg_531.jpg http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Story_of_Davidito Here’s a quote from the Dito Book confirming Pat as one of Rick’s “sexy nannies” when he was young: “21 Our frequent moves meant a lot of hard work on house clean-up & preparations, which David always participates in & is usually a very good boy, very “diligent in business”, & redeems his own time keeping busy with chores. It was a little difficult for him at first to be with other on the staff if Alfred & I both were busy or had to go out together, etc, but either one of sexy Pat or Sue can easily distract him when he seems worried about seeing us leave together.” It’s my understanding that Heather is the wife/partner of Apollos? From what I’m seeing in the Dito Book, Pathway/Pat was one of Rick’s child molesters along with Sara D. and Sue (Angela Smith). Can anyone confirm this? There’s sure a lot of skin showing in some of those pics. This would explain to me one of the reasons, amongst many, for Apollos disappearing and taking hush money from TFI after the 4sum left, it would also explain to me why the 4sum with the most info on TFI remain hushed up. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 08, 2006, 20:45 (Agree/Disagree?) "I think we can have an intelligent conversation without getting into the LaMattery saga again." That's rich coming from a LaMattery.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 08, 2006, 20:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Awesome, that's the first time rich and LaMattery was used in the same sentence.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 08, 2006, 21:28 (Agree/Disagree?) And, whoopdee-doo, there's the second time.(reply to this comment)

From Information Thursday, June 08, 2006, 11:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Although Heather and Apollos did leave at the same time, she is not the wife/partner of Apollos, her husband is someone else who also left at that time. (I am assuming you are correct about the Dito book, but do not know for certain). Additionally, this supposed "four some with the most info on TFI" did not remain hushed up. I don't suppose the name "James Penn" means anything to you? It was his letter that broke the silence on the abuses that took place in Berg and Zerby's household. I'm all in favor of seeking justice and bringing to light issues that have been buried and obfuscated but please let's try to keep it factual.(reply to this comment)

From Question Thursday, June 08, 2006, 11:41 (Agree/Disagree?) That's exactly why I asked the question – to make sure I have my facts straight. Here’s what I now understand: Heather and Apollos are/were not a couple – right? Just to clarify my original question: Is Heather Pathway? By hushed up I'm referring to walking into the authorities with their info and building a case for them on Zerby and Kelly, or was that an impossibility and a waste of time? Or did they speak with the authorities about it and just didn't publicize it? I understand that writing a signed confession like No Regrets was the minimum, but do you think there was anything further that could have been done by them aside from No Regrets? This is about 5 people that in my opinion did not do enough with the information they had when they left The Family. They did the minimum. Rick committed suicide because of his need for "justice and revenge", wouldn't he still be around today if his need was fulfilled by the court with these 5 helping him obtain justice? (reply to this comment)

From Information Thursday, June 08, 2006, 12:48 (Agree/Disagree?) I do not know if Heather is Pathway. I assume so. To the best of my knowledge Heather and Apollos are not and were not a couple. There is always "something more" that people could do and it's very easy to see it that way when I'm only walking in my own shoes. You say, "Rick committed suicide because of his need for "justice and revenge", wouldn't he still be around today if his need was fulfilled by the court with these 5 helping him obtain justice?" I am not psychic and as such cannot see what would have been the future had things in the past been different but I do believe it is arrogant to assume that it is possible to know. It is for me the realization at how little justice serves us in situations such as ours that I find particularly depressing and I harbor my own doubts as to whether we will ever find justice through the courts. I doubt that information provided to the authorites by "those five" at that place in time would have done little to overcome the fact that Zerby, Kelly and cohorts have spent upward of three decades concealing their whereabouts, their identities and the trail of money, expunging the evidence and making it virtually impossible to obtain legal justice. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 08, 2006, 13:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, I don’t think we should pack up our bags and go home just yet. I’m not going to lie down and let anyone that had very specific and direct knowledge of child abuse, Rick’s life in Zerby’s house of horrors, and what happened to us as children in The Family get away with the minimum of writing a letter entitled “No Regrets”. James Penn an co.’s biggest regret should be that they didn’t do more to corroborate and bring to justice, even if it was impossible to do, Kelly and Zerby when they had the power to do so regardless of how hard it was for them to move on. These 5 do not deserve our sympathy; they do not deserve to move on. They should have given testimony to the correct reporting agencies about a group that manipulates and exploits children many years ago. These 5 were not only involved with TFI, they were at the top of TFI and carry a significant amount of blame and responsibility for the prosperity of TFI more than any other ex-member. If they were really sorry for their actions they would turn themselves in to the authorities and let the chips fall were they may instead of their current method of operating. Their inaction tells me that JP and co. really do not have any regrets and do not care to validate our abuse nor the abuse that continues on in TFI. Now we sga's have to untangle a system that they helped established and let them get away with it by posting a nice letter entitled "No Regrets" - I don't think so. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Wednesday, June 21, 2006, 14:27 (Agree/Disagree?) This is an elementary way of looking at things. The issues of responsibility in the cult were much more complicated and not at as black and white as you seem to think. Rather than attacking people who have left the cult, rejected cult doctrines, gotten on with their lives and even taken the time to speak out against the cult at personal expenses to themselves, not to mention write about their experiences and express remorse for their part in certain matters, why not target the actual perpetrators, the real child abusers, the child molestors, the individuals who committed the crimes? I know this isn't as easy at blaming bystanders and trying to make a case of guilt by association, but it is much more productive. In fact, in most circumstances, failing to report a crime is not a crime, failing to testify regarding events one witnessed or has knowledge of is not a crime and failing to render aid to a victim when one is not the perpetrator is not a crime. In the US we do not have good Samaritan laws. A bystander or witness has no legal obligation to come forward. That is why there are rewards and guarantees of anonymity to encourage individuals to go to the authorities with information they may have because they are not obligated to do so. It is hard enough to hold the actual abusers and pedophiles responsible. It is practically impossible to make any case for accomplice liability or conspiracy. It is certainly easier and sexier to throw up a website and start taking aim at easy targets who have already left the cult and expressed remorse for having been involved than it is to do the hard, complex, long, quiet, behind the scenes work of investigating and proving the real crimes committed by the cult's still current leadership. That kind of long, hard work is certainly not been Jim la Mattery's style. Instead, he likes to run to the media with every "new discovery" of decades old publications and information concerning events that he has no first hand knowledge of, very little understanding and no useful contribution. It would be a lot more productive to cooperate with and support those individuals who have left and spoken out rather than attack them and alienate them. It would be a lot more productive to remain focused on the real problem and opposition, the cult and its abusive doctrines and leadership. I'm aware Jim la Mattery claims to have contacted James Penn and asked him to work with him, and James Penn allegedly declined for obvious reasons. This is most likely the reason Jim has now chosen to target James Penn. It's Jim operating procedure to attack anyone who disagrees with him and his actions in any way. But, it's certainly not productive or beneficial to anyone. In fact, it has caused much more harm than good. I wouldn't be surprised if the cult is trumpetting Jim la Mattery as the answer to their prayers to "confound the enemy" and "hinder" any efforts to bring them to account for their actions. Jim is a raging ball of poorly focused anger and frustration who targets anyone who stumbles across his path of pursuit. What needs to be realized is that not everyone once involved with the cult has the same level of responsibility. There were kind, generous and caring individuals in the cult who truly tried to "serve God" and be "missionaries". Those people just got caught up in an abusive cult that they did not fully comprehend at the time they joined. Some of those individuals were victims themselves that joined as minors and ended up trapped with no place to go. But, when things really got bad, they left. There were individuals who were kind and protective and not sadistic as others. There were individuals who were good to the children they encoutered and would never choose to hurt anyone. I remember one such woman. She was in charge of the school I lived in for about a year. She was a good person at heart and made my life for that year bearable. She didn't beat us or neglect us. When she was on a trip once, I was molested by one of the men that lived in the school. When she returned, she reported what happened and made it a big deal. I don't blame her for what happened. She didn't molest me, and she did her best to try to remedy what happened. I do blame the national officers, though, who tried to cover it up and told me not to tell my parents. I'm friends with this woman to this day. She left with her children not long after I left. She was technically in charge at the time, so under the same strategy of blaming everyone with any sort of authority as Jim is doing, I could blame her, but it would be misplaced. In fact, the same strategy could be used against Jim. Where was he when his daughters were being abused? No one is more responsible for a child than a parent. But, that type of blanket blame is misplaced and unproductive. What needs to be understood is that not every situation is black and white and not every adult that was affiliated with the cult is equally responsible. How about focusing on the real responsible parties, the currect leadership and the pedophiles they produce, harbor and protect? Let's leave the victims and the individuals who have left and done their best to speak out and accept responsibility for their roles alone. (reply to this comment)

From John Jr. Thursday, June 22, 2006, 09:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Nancy, So Penn's a good guy for apologizing, but did he abuse children? If so, shouldn't he apologize for that? (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, June 22, 2006, 09:44 (Agree/Disagree?) John, I'm not going to argue with you. You can read what I wrote and see that it is much more complicated that calling James Penn a good guy or a bad guy. I don't have an opinion on James Penn. I don't know him. But, I sure know that real responsibility and blame lies with current cult leadership. They are the real criminals and the ones on which we should focus. Jim should continue his crusade against the likes of Philip Sloan, or whatever his name is. That guy is a real pedophile that molested Jim's own daughter. His wife, Cynthia Salazaar, is also a child abuser. She abused me and so many others. Why not direct limited resources at the ones who are really to blame for crimes we can prove? He'd get a lot more support and be a lot more productive. It's not hard to locate people in the US. Jim should direct his time and attention to located Philip Sloan and Cynthia Salazaar and informing the local community of their criminal acts and getting their charitable cash cow cut off. That would be real justice. Those folks shouldn't be working with children and youth. They continue to do harm. As far as I know, James Penn isn't hurting anyone, but there are plenty of child abusers out there continuing to do harm.(reply to this comment)

From moonbeam Friday, June 23, 2006, 07:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Okay I got sucked into reading the whole thread. For the record I agree with you on this nancy. I am happy with James Penn and Ed Prieb's appology and actions, and I don't hold the fact that in the past he tried to discredit me and others in court, against him. Lesser criminals are given clemency in order to catch a bigger fish. I kind off see it like that. I do feel however that when the time comes they would both be willing and excellent witnesses for our side. The silence of the other three is somewhat disturbing and cowardly.(reply to this comment)

From John Jr. Thursday, June 22, 2006, 12:53 (Agree/Disagree?) The question really is simple and it is black and white. Did Penn abuse children? Yes or no? It only gets complicated when we can't answer that simple question. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, June 22, 2006, 17:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Uh, like I said, I don't know him. Did you read that part of what I wrote? Did you read what I wrote at all? You're a whole lot like your uncle. Let's break it down. I said I don't know him. Never met him. So, if I don't know him and never met him, do you think I have any idea? On direct or cross examination there is another unobjectionable answer to every question. It is, "I don't know. I have no basis for which to answer the question. I have no knowledge of the events." When opposing counsel can't get that through his head and continues to ask the same question the response is, "Objection, asked and answered. Counsel is badgering." To which the judge responds, "Sustained." (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, June 22, 2006, 15:18 (Agree/Disagree?) John, there is a word for people who think in black and white; Extremists. Everything is subjective, if you think everything is objective, you are dangerous. If you don't believe me, I have some infantrymen I'd like to introduce you to.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, June 22, 2006, 17:46 (Agree/Disagree?) There's also another term - la Mattery(reply to this comment)

From Nelson Muntz Thursday, June 22, 2006, 18:10 (Agree/Disagree?) HA HA! Your last name has become associated with being small minded extremists, HA HA! (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, June 22, 2006, 12:58 (Agree/Disagree?) And people who are afraid of the answer complicate it on purpose!(reply to this comment)

From WTF Anthony? Thursday, June 22, 2006, 15:20 (Agree/Disagree?) You are generalizing! Witchhunting! I thought you were smarter than that. This of all lessons we have taken from the cult. Shame on you.(reply to this comment)

From thick as thieves Friday, June 30, 2006, 17:02 (Agree/Disagree?) You'll find that Antony has several other reasons for being "tight" with the La Mattery's: http://www.myspace.com/fassbinderx(reply to this comment)

From WTF thick as thieves? Friday, June 30, 2006, 20:13 (Agree/Disagree?) We've all seen Anthony's myspace, thanks to his shameless promotion of it. Could you be a little more specific?(reply to this comment)

From spell it out Saturday, July 01, 2006, 02:39 (Agree/Disagree?) a picture tells a thousand words(reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Wednesday, June 21, 2006, 19:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Still talking smack there Nancy, very disappointed...you could be doing good instead of trying to divide and thwart resolve. "In fact, in most circumstances, failing to report a crime is not a crime,..." This whole paragraph goes to show what kind of person you are. Sure it may not be a crime to report a crime, but to withhold information from a investigation is...and that's what Jim is saying that Penn and his pals have been doing. Not only have they been withholding information but they have received payment for their silence...thats extortion, blackmail, there is a term for it but I can't really think of it just now. It is immoral and unethical and shows what miserable human beings they are. By not coming forward wtih every little piece of information they are hurting the victims all over again and making it impossible for Justice to prevail. I understand that Jim doesn't understand all that we went through and wasn't aware of all the aweful things that happened, like the Dito book and the videos, and when he found out about it he was shocked, like anyone would expect from something like that, I understand that he wasn't aware of all the things that happened, but that's really not his fault, he just didn't know. So, cut some slack and be a good human being and do what you can to help, no matter what. It's not about hurting people that are not responsible or are innocent, really there aren't that many innocent individuals in the Family, they are all guilty of some abuse or another, but for those that aren't, they are guilty by association and by not standing up and doing something about it and although that might not exactly be a crime it does show proof of being a aweful humanbeing. They like all of us helped to cover up the crimes and blacken out the evidence of their foul preachings and when it came time to bring some justice to the children they lied about the abuse. That's obstruction of justice and that is a crime. (reply to this comment)

From Bella Saturday, June 24, 2006, 08:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Lovelight - for your own sake - please think critically and for yourself when it comes to the issue of my uncle, Jim LaMattery. Trust me, I'm speaking from experience here. If he was so quick to f me (one of his strongest supporters) and my husband (who has done nothing but given to Jim over the period of close to two years) over, he'll do the same to anyone who doesn't play by his rules. I'm not the only member of Jim's family who is disgusted with him right now. I'm just glad my last name is no longer "LaMattery" - sad, but true.(reply to this comment)

From geez you do get fucking tiring to listen to. Thursday, June 22, 2006, 05:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Lovelight, I'm sorry but you sound like you've become so entangled in your own need for your particular brand of justice that you are completely unable to grasp anything other than your own, very narrow, view on this issue. *You* might believe that there is no better aim in life than to bring the cult down (Good fucking luck with that, btw), - You go ahead and do everything in your power to that end, then. *You* might believe that striving for some elusive sense of closure justifies a complete disregard for the rights of victims to 'own' their experiences - You just continue right on, then. *You* might trust Jim implicitly - fair enough, work with him, then. You might also believe that there is no ethical quandary here, given Jim's obvious hunger for monetary gain at the expense of the victims whose side he purports to be on - by all means, knock yourself out in supporting him, then. But Jesus fucking Christ, you have got to stop treating anyone who attempts a dialogue with you in such a condescending manner, esp. when it's someone like Nancy who has shown a great deal of wisdom and compassion toward victims and a much more healthy attitude in regards to the very complex issue of varying levels of culpability within the cult membership, IMHO. I know that you have perfectly valid reasons for your personal feelings, and I am sure that were I in your position, my anger might well render me quite incapable of rational objectivity. You have a right to your position, absolutely, and I do admire your resolve to do what you consider to be right, but if you think you are going to accomplish anything at all by being so obnoxious and preachy, you're sadly mistaken. We all have a fucking right to our positions, too, and your unpleasantness is hardly going to convince us of the superiority of yours. Honestly, I'm getting sick of your attitude towards others on this site, especially people like Nancy - who HAS done her fair share to help the cause that you are so passionately championing. Fucking get off your high horse, won't you, and get back to your crusade. (reply to this comment)

From moonbeam Friday, June 23, 2006, 07:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I am just going to jump in here to say that I feel most participants of moving on, have a good sense of unity when it matters. I even think TF members may be quite jealous that we are here of our own free will and can cope with differences, even value differences, we do not live in fear or threat from them or from TF's god and bergs ghost and zerby's illogical and insane ramblings. The example of the best mother/mamma has been slashed with zerby's reaction to her sons' death etc.. Even on mydelusion it all sounds like 'thou protest too much' We deal with eachother on the whole as grown ups and IMO when there has been childish ad hommien attacks it has mostly come from TF SGA's, current or newly left. Most find their feet and adapt to a more reasonable postion and way of communicating. But understanding is there because that is the nature of becoming free from the cult. There is so much scope for us to do as little or as much as we feel able at any given point in our lives and stages of healing. I commend you Love light for your valuable efforts and strength. I truly am sorry for your brother. I absolutly believe TF's time will come and when events in the future allow, it will become obvious what must be done in regards to Smith and Zerby et al. Until then, Patience and taking care of ourselves and loved ones is paramount. I am not sure what Jim wants from us and I admit to being unsure about your position in relation to him and why you appear to have the same fustrations as him. The FBI are still gathering statements I assume, and the evidence is stacking up. We don't need Jim to contunue to fight for justice in our own ways. I don't like playing Follow the leader or Simon Says anymore. Jim doesn't need us either, to do what he feels is right. There has been some concern from a few here due to some of his actions so it's best left I feel. If he comes up with a legitimite request I am sure peeps here will consider the options and if it is something they feel is right for them he'll get it, but like I said I am not sure what he wants, and he needs to take critisism too, after all it is us who spent our childhoods and formative adult years there. Jim's way is not the only way. I am not saying you said that but thats just the impression I got. I think when directing officials to info, they should be directed to Xfamily and moving on. I'll just end on this because I have to go and celebrate ;)- TF are very aware how strong we are. We have the truth-we wear Ricky's Magic Green Shirt. Disclaimer-did not use spell check! (reply to this comment)

From vixen Friday, June 23, 2006, 07:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Happy Birthday, Moonbeam (if you put the right date in your profile, that is)!!! I hope that you and your son are well, and your fiance too (or is he your husband, by now?). I hope you'll be extra happy today. Best wishes :-)(reply to this comment)

From moonbeam Friday, June 23, 2006, 07:48 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL Babes thank you ;) am having a big party tonight and I am extra happy as we set a date for next year. Will try and catch you in the chat room soon ;) (reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Thursday, June 22, 2006, 07:12 (Agree/Disagree?) To whomever this is, this is a comment board, nothing else. I'm not entangled in anything other than doing my job and being a mother and every so often getting online. I'm in Japan at the moment so I'm not trying to Champion anything and I can't say that I would care to bring the Cult down, my goal if I had a goal would be to stop them from making money here on Okinawa from the BX/PX's. Other than that there is not much I can do from here. I don't know anything about this "owning" your experiences, I'm pretty sure I do own mine and never really thought about it that way but ok. I speak to Jim, I don't work with him, but if I was in the States I would do what I could but since I'm a military spouse who knows were we'll get stationed next. If it's on the west coast I just might work with him. As for the Ethical quandary, I've already said that I don't care if he makes money, I wish he did because I know he would do what he could to help others as well with it, and one of those people might include my brother but who knows. The rest of this post was just negative crap to try and place some guilt on me for trying to say we should all stand up and be working together than poking at eachother with sticks. You don't even know me but if you did you would know that I'm not only preachy but I am also obnoxious when it comes to this subject. I'm going to be condescending because this is something that someone or everyone should be saying and I can't begin to fathom some of the attitudes on here...maybe it's because of Ricky that now I've found my own voice on this issue and I'm not going to apologize for being any of those things you've called me. I just don't give a crap, and I will not give a crap cause I have no sympathy for you or for the lack of indecisiveness, wishiwashiness, 2 facedness, fickleness and all those other nesses out there that I've seen on these posts. Apparently it's not getting through with what I've sent before that I am doing all I CAN nothing more, nothing less and that's all I've said we should do. What disappoints me is the times when we can do something and elect to do nothing, or when someone is in power to make that final push and they back off. Either way I don't really have a high horse, I have high morals and high standards and I ain't going to apologize for that either. (reply to this comment)

From Bella Saturday, June 24, 2006, 09:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Lovelight - It's really sweet that you think Jim in not in it for money or that he would use all the profits to help victims. Not so my dear. I've had plenty of conversations with Jim about money and trust me, all the money was NOT going to the victims. One of Jim's big regrets is ripping up the contract he signed with Elixia especially once Jim found out that a reporter in SF is currently writing a book about the story. Funny, he had no problem signing a contract with Elixia but he had a huge problem signing a contract with my husband after my husband put in over 200 hours (his free time hours mind you) of work into Jim's sites. Hmmm so does Jim only sign contracts with people when he is going to profit from it? Looks like it. Jim I know you're reading this, you owe us a LOT of money right now. Money that was going to be used for Marylin's educational programs. I'm pissed off as a mother, a wife, and a niece and I sincerely hope you go to hell (although I know you're living in a kind of hell right now because of all those meds that are making you crazy).(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, June 22, 2006, 09:16 (Agree/Disagree?) "You for the lack of indecisiveness, wishiwashiness, 2 facedness, fickleness and all those other nesses out there that I've seen on these posts." I'm no holla back girl and not real familiar with smack, but if anything is smack, that sure sounds like it. (reply to this comment)

From okay, this is the last time I will bother. Thursday, June 22, 2006, 08:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I think I've realised what it is about your posts that really fucking annoys me. It's that god-awful, prissy, self-righteous and judgemental attitude that comes through loud and clear in everything you say. Who the fuck made you the sole arbitrator of 'what we should do'? Who the fuck gave you license to decide what 'everyone should be saying'? Who the fuck do you think you are, that you can seriously believe that simply because you feel a certain route is right for you, that everyone else must follow your lead? Who the fuck gave you the ridiculous idea that your morals and standards are any more valid than anyone else's??? Having said all that, I will continue to applaud your obvious determination and the vigour with which you argue your position. It is an admirable trait to possess, to be sure. Just consider the possibility that life is not as black and white as you seem to think, and there may be a whole lot of shades of grey that you're not considering. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, June 22, 2006, 09:34 (Agree/Disagree?) The thing is that it does take time to fully grasp the complexity of the situation. I felt a lot like her a few years ago. Everything seemed so cut and dry, black and white, "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. I used to strongly disagree with anyone that there were varying levels of responsibility and guilt. Just ask JohnnyWalker. He and I had some awful arguments. Yet, now I've mellowed and matured. I can see the different levels of complexity and responsibility. I can see that not everything is black and white. I can see that such an elementary understanding of such a complicated issue as a cult can actually be harmful, especially if you're really aggressive and don't listen to anyone else. The issues of victims, especially child abuse victims and sexual assault victims, are very delicate. Without a certain level of respect and deference to others around you, you can really cause a lot of harm. I realize now that I don't know it all. I realize that working with other people who have different sets of knowledge, skills and experience is vital. I can also recognize the kind of mindset I had a few years ago in other people just arrived on the scene. They charge in a lot like I did and feel that everyone should drop everything and do everything in their power to stop the injustice of this cult. Yet, over time, I think we come to realize that living well, taking care of ourselves and our friends and siblings and ridding our lives of the influences of the cult to the best of our ability is the best revenge. Not to say that justice should not be had, it will just be a lot harder and take a lot more time than just a few postings and raging at the wind.(reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Thursday, June 22, 2006, 09:19 (Agree/Disagree?) If the things I say really bother you so much than maybe I'm saying something that you already know and it's hitting a sore spot so that's why it bothers you. Maybe if I explain my point than it will be a bit easier for you to understand. I came onto this site as an outsider back in March of last year after I heard about Ricky and found out about this site. I spent hours and hours reading posts and look at all the information that come out here since all this crazy stuff has happened and was disturbed and disgusted that after something so traggic and so enlightening as well as convicting that people were still picking at eachother and fighting. That was my introduction to this whole big nasty picture. But obviously no matter what I say its still happening and I'm still disturbed and disgusted, so take that as you will. I'm don't think anyone should follow my lead, I'm not a leader never said I was, never wanted to be and NEVER will be. I don't have a lead for that matter, I have a voice as you all seem to have and I'm going to voice mine as everyone else seems to as well and if that bothers you than get off this site and don't bother upsetting yourself in reading anything I say. It's not going to be good for you since as you say it's god-awful, prissy, self-righteous and judgemental so why put yourself through that. I hate it when people say nothing is all black and white, no shit, there are a whole lot of shades of grey, that's a really Berg thing to say. There is right and wrong, ying and yang, good and evil as well black and white. Unfortunately there is grey as well but only as a product of mixing black and white, some good some bad, but that still doesn't make it right. That's a cop-out or an excuse and that's not excusable in my book. I would re-read your posts as well, cause in every one that you've written it's been judgemental, self-righteous and prissy towards me as well as obnoxious and preachy. Your not voicing your opinion or voicing your point of view your just slamming me and its pretty annoying and holier-than-thou to me too. Then you go and try and congratulate me for my determination and vigor and it just smells. It's like one of them leaders calling you into their room for a spanking or verbal lashing but then at the end he says "but I really love you and this hurts me more than it hurts you". Whatabunchofshit!!! Your defensive about what I say and it just makes me wonder why. Anyway, I'm not going to waste anymore of my time responding to your posts as well I'm not going to waste any time responding to any negative posts, it's beneath me to even be giving them a moment of my time. (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Thursday, June 22, 2006, 21:19 (Agree/Disagree?) If you're an outsider, why do you use terms like "Lovelight, convicting, and holier-than-thou"? That's insider talk if I ever heard it.(reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Thursday, June 22, 2006, 21:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Outsider as in I haven't been in the loop for so long. I just worded it wrong. Sorry. I'm an SGA. (reply to this comment)

From OHR NWO Thursday, June 22, 2006, 18:45 (Agree/Disagree?) "I spent hours and hours reading posts and look at all the information that come out here since all this crazy stuff has happened and was disturbed and disgusted that after something so traggic and so enlightening as well as convicting that people were still picking at eachother and fighting." Yes, that was really CONVICTING! LHM!(reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, June 22, 2006, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) *hands Lovelight a tissue so she can wipe the foam from her mouth.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Thursday, June 22, 2006, 12:47 (Agree/Disagree?) To LL: Damn girl, you do give as good as you get. And I like that about you, seriously. I wrote the two comments that you're responding to in the above post, and although you said that you won't respond to my posts and that is totally your prerogative, I hope that you will at least read this. You might think it's hypocritical of me to attack your writing style and its inferred reflection of your attitude, and then follow that with a commendation but I can assure you, I *do* appreciate the way in which you fight your corner. I like a worthy opponent and one that won't take it lying down. I do also admire the strength of your convictions, regardless of my personal views on them. Take it or leave it, it’s up to you, but for the record, I never compliment someone I am arguing with unless I mean it. I have a few things to say: First of all, I don't know what possessed me to post anonymously. It's unfair given the ferocity with which I wrote. From now on (If I bother to engage in a dialogue with you on this particular issue, which I probably won't since it's doubtful we will ever see eye to eye), I will post under my ID so that you can know who you are sparring with. Secondly, I owe you an apology because in reading over my comments I can see that I have been more contentious than I would have liked I have allowed myself to get much too close to employing ad hominem attacks and that is not the correct way to go about a reasoned discussion. For that, I apologise unreservedly. I have allowed problems and frustrations that have absolutely no relation to you or your posts to colour the way in which I have engaged with you, and that is unfair to you and also dilutes the validity of my argument. This apology does not, however, negate the specific viewpoint that I have chosen to hold. I still stand by the points that I have made, but I accept that I could have made them more graciously. As far as your musings as to the cause of my defensiveness, yes, the things you say do bother me, but it's not because I'm defensive about the actual content of your argument but rather the way in which it is delivered. I simply cannot abide the attitude that pervades your comments, whereby you seem to believe that you hold the moral high ground and anyone who does not think like you do, is espousing such qualities as ‘indecisiveness, wishiwashiness, 2 facedness, fickleness and all those other nesses out there that I've seen on these posts’. Can you not understand why you might piss people off when you persist in such rather obvious pontification? You have said that my comments have been ‘judgemental, self-righteous and prissy towards me as well as obnoxious and preachy’ but I disagree. I don’t see that I have judged you outright for your position, I don’t see any indication that I believe that my values and/or morals are any more valid than yours, and I certainly don’t see how any of my comments qualify as prissy or preachy. Obnoxious; yes, that I can accept. I have a habit of answering in kind, and I feel that your continued manner of address more than merits mine. That, however, is only my opinion and you are fully entitled to oppose it, as I’m sure you will. PS. To avoid confusion, I am going to repost all the comments that I have made so that there is no question regarding what exactly I have said. My comments: 1. I really think you are oversimplifying the issue if you seriously believe that the main obstacle to finding justice is 'petty crap' and 'letting TF poison our minds against each other'. I don't know how long it takes *you* to write a comment here but most of mine require about, oh, one minute's thought and, oh, about same for writing it, so I would hardly call it 'spending this kind of time and effort on bickering'. The difficulties in finding a way of bringing TFs leadership to some kind of accounting has little to do with us falling for their 'genius' attempts at sabotage and everything to do with the fact that it is nigh impossible to pin any of them down to anything at all. I for one have no desire at all to have anything to do with an effort to bring the cult leadership to court. I am sorry but I am too selfish and too preoccupied with trying to find my way in life. The cult took the first 25 years of my life and I'm damned if I am going to voluntarily lose the next ten years (or more) to a largely unproductive effort at directing my 'hostility' toward TF. I greatly admire those who feel driven to act as champions for those who were abused and I salute them for their strength and commitment to what is certainly a noble cause, but I just don't feel like that. I wish you'd quit your lecturing and accept that *you* might feel strongly about this issue, but others might not. Oh, and do tell, dear, what exactly are *you* doing within this movement for justice, hmmm? I should hope that you have taken multiple concrete steps to aid the effort, seeing as you choose to address all of us here in such a condescending manner. *disclaimer: you are perfectly entitiled to expressing your opinions. I am feeling pissy this morning and your comment just happened to remind me of one of those awful speeches by some self-righteous auntie, 'we' this and 'we' that, etc etc etc. If you are actively involved in some sort of effort against TF, I take my hat off to you. 2. Heh, I like you! Seriously though, chill! I'm cool with your position, and I added that disclaimer precisely because I had a hunch that you were someone who walked the walk. I have the greatest respect for you, now that you have demonstrated that this is, in fact, the case. 3. Lovelight, I'm sorry but you sound like you've become so entangled in your own need for your particular brand of justice that you are completely unable to grasp anything other than your own, very narrow, view on this issue. *You* might believe that there is no better aim in life than to bring the cult down (Good fucking luck with that, btw), - You go ahead and do everything in your power to that end, then. *You* might believe that striving for some elusive sense of closure justifies a complete disregard for the rights of victims to 'own' their experiences - You just continue right on, then. *You* might trust Jim implicitly - fair enough, work with him, then. You might also believe that there is no ethical quandary here, given Jim's obvious hunger for monetary gain at the expense of the victims whose side he purports to be on - by all means, knock yourself out in supporting him, then. But Jesus fucking Christ, you have got to stop treating anyone who attempts a dialogue with you in such a condescending manner, esp. when it's someone like Nancy who has shown a great deal of wisdom and compassion toward victims and a much more healthy attitude in regards to the very complex issue of varying levels of culpability within the cult membership, IMHO. I know that you have perfectly valid reasons for your personal feelings, and I am sure that were I in your position, my anger might well render me quite incapable of rational objectivity. You have a right to your position, absolutely, and I do admire your resolve to do what you consider to be right, but if you think you are going to accomplish anything at all by being so obnoxious and preachy, you're sadly mistaken. We all have a fucking right to our positions, too, and your unpleasantness is hardly going to convince us of the superiority of yours. Honestly, I'm getting sick of your attitude towards others on this site, especially people like Nancy - who HAS done her fair share to help the cause that you are so passionately championing. Fucking get off your high horse, won't you, and get back to your crusade. 4. I think I've realised what it is about your posts that really fucking annoys me. It's that god-awful, prissy, self-righteous and judgemental attitude that comes through loud and clear in everything you say. Who the fuck made you the sole arbitrator of 'what we should do'? Who the fuck gave you license to decide what 'everyone should be saying'? Who the fuck do you think you are, that you can seriously believe that simply because you feel a certain route is right for you, that everyone else must follow your lead? Who the fuck gave you the ridiculous idea that your morals and standards are any more valid than anyone else's??? Having said all that, I will continue to applaud your obvious determination and the vigour with which you argue your position. It is an admirable trait to possess, to be sure. Just consider the possibility that life is not as black and white as you seem to think, and there may be a whole lot of shades of grey that you're not considering. (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Thursday, June 22, 2006, 15:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Damn it v! Would a little humanity kill you? I can't count on both hands how many times I've been a total unforgivable asshole, and had to just live with it, but the one time you start to let your emotions get the better of you, and be a little bit of a bitch, you have to go and clean it up and apologize, and prove once again what a cool, rational, intellectual giant you are. I resent you from down here in your shadow, the mud is nice and cool, come and have a wallow sometime, you'd look damn sexy covered in mud too. There you see! What a stupid thing to say, but am I going to write a long ass apology, NO! I'm just a ass sometimes. I'm okay with this. BTW: I'm pretty sure LL as well as everyone with half a brain knew it was you, but props for your courage and honesty anyway, go ahead and put those on the list of why your better than me.(reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Thursday, June 22, 2006, 21:36 (Agree/Disagree?) That was such fun to read ;) Vix, see why you can't stop posting? We, your fans, adore you.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Friday, June 23, 2006, 02:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Heh, Thanks Andy, thanks Rain. You guys are sweet. Sweet and funny and maybe just a little tiny bit strange ;-) Seriously, your comments make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Yay for mutual appreciation!!! (reply to this comment)

From New theme song for movingon. TYJ! Thursday, June 22, 2006, 13:19 (Agree/Disagree?) 'Behold, behold, behold... How good, how good, how good... And how pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell together, in unity. In unity. In unity. *repeat until everyone is melted together in mind, body and spirit. *and don't forget the strong tongues and weeping. *and the hugs.(reply to this comment)

From Hey Thursday, June 22, 2006, 13:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Nelson Muntz, can we gat a "Ha Ha" on this one?(reply to this comment)

From Nelson Muntz Thursday, June 22, 2006, 15:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I am not your organ grinder monkey, I will say Ha Ha, at my leisure. Thanks for thinking of me though, I'll hit you with one soon.(reply to this comment)

From Let's all sing about the boy who wouldn't Friday, June 23, 2006, 08:51 (Agree/Disagree?) It was a request you half wit. I think you are a little too filled with pride for your own good. How can the lord use your "Ha Ha" as a tool if you are not willing to be used as a vesel for him. You need to get right with god Don't be a hypocrite quit doing your own thing my friend Cuz the lord is tired of it (reply to this comment)

From Here we go again... Friday, June 23, 2006, 10:09 (Agree/Disagree?) It's '*You'd better* get right with God!', Dear. What *are* we going to do with you, hmmm? (reply to this comment)

From Let's sing Friday, June 23, 2006, 10:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Gimmie a red lollipop?(reply to this comment)

From goodness no! Friday, June 23, 2006, 10:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Didn't you ever read Food or Poison??? (reply to this comment)

From Let's sing Friday, June 23, 2006, 10:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Emm, carob cookies then? Oh nevermind. If I don't get a lollipop I'm going to kick you in the shin!(reply to this comment)

From Tinkerbell Friday, June 23, 2006, 10:46 (Agree/Disagree?) No, carob cookies are *special* treats. You can have banana slices dipped in orange juice and rolled in wheat germ. Yummy yummy, good for tummy!(reply to this comment)

From Let's sing Friday, June 23, 2006, 11:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Fine, then I will throw it all up on your shoes because it sounds gross. What are we hippies?(reply to this comment)

From yeah, whatever Friday, June 23, 2006, 11:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not wearing shoes, silly.(reply to this comment)

From Let's sing Friday, June 23, 2006, 11:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry, I forgot hippies don't wear shoes. (Something about not liking to wash socks.)(reply to this comment)

From Your Mother Friday, June 23, 2006, 11:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Shut up you 2!(reply to this comment)

From OMFG people! Thursday, June 22, 2006, 10:35 (Agree/Disagree?) "people were still picking at eachother and fighting" Thank goodness you are above all that.(reply to this comment)

From lisa Thursday, June 22, 2006, 12:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Lets poke each other with sticks(reply to this comment)

From Dissonant Friday, June 23, 2006, 08:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Yay, stick poking, my fave!(reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Wednesday, June 21, 2006, 19:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you for such basic, solid common sense.(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Wednesday, June 21, 2006, 09:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Everyone in the Family knew about Rickys abuse. The Dito book was very specific there could not have been any doubt in anyones mind. One couple you could look up is the people from Spokes of Light. They lived in Bergs home for awhile and they did not have such a good go at it. I believe they may still be in the Family but maybe some of their children have left.(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, June 21, 2006, 20:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I believe he is now a CRO or CO in the US. He was a teen shepherd in Argentina for a while. He once suggested that we "share" (I was about 13). In some states, that counts as abuse if you're a minor. I remember when one of their children had to be told as a toddler not to say "I want to mate love to you" [sic] in front of "sheep." I think that child is now out, but I recently saw some of their kids on the Wordstock website. (reply to this comment)

From oh and here Wednesday, June 21, 2006, 22:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Courtesy of My Confusion dot cum, where they hold the world record of people who say how they don't really write well, but want to tell you about their great upbringing and fine education (or say nothing about their writing but would be clueless in Writing 101) http://www.myconclusion.com/archives/2005/01/23/tim-forsberg-speaks-out/(reply to this comment)

From AndyH must haved timed out or something. Thursday, June 22, 2006, 01:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Should I even bother to read this? Does it say anything the others don't? Every single person that "Speaks Out" goes on a spiel about how NOT abused the children they have/were/are/babysit for/are around/have heard of, are. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." A person who reads myconclusion before an ex-member site, would probably suspect abuse faster than someone who starts here. It's painfully fucking obvious but people still don't get it. So there's you're answer. "Why aren't people doing everything in their power.... blah blah blah?" Because it's fucking tiring! It's like trying to play chess with a hamster, they just don't get it. It makes me sad. (reply to this comment)

From fucking tired Thursday, June 22, 2006, 04:54 (Agree/Disagree?) No, it doesn't say anything different, and no, you shouldn't bother to read it.(reply to this comment)

From Information Thursday, June 08, 2006, 14:33 (Agree/Disagree?) You say, "I'm not going to lie down and let anyone that had very specific and direct knowledge of child abuse, Rick’s life in Zerby’s house of horrors, and what happened to us as children in The Family get away with the minimum of writing a letter entitled “No Regrets”." How exactly do you propose to force "these five" to do more than your stipulated minimum? There are many "should haves" not the least of which is: our parents should have been smart enough not to join a stupid cult. They also should have loved us enough not to turn us over to the group to raise us. They should have stood by us instead of the cult leaders. But they didn't. I'm not sure where you got the idea that "these five" have anyone's sympathy. I'm also not sure who died and left you the arbitrator of who does or does not have the right to move on. I am in support of seeking justice. I am also tired of rhetoric.(reply to this comment)

From Question Thursday, June 08, 2006, 17:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm an SGA questioning the ethics of Penn and co. and you're attacking me by saying "I'm also not sure who died and left you the arbitrator of who does or does not have the right to move on." The very fact that Penn and you were part of TF's spin machine and child exploitation that affected me and thousands of other gives me the right to express my opinion, I have zero sympathy for you. Jim's said that he will be writing about what he feels the 5 could have done and continue to do in order to, as you have stated, "do more than your stipulated minimum". Personally I think the maximum would be for Penn to set the standard and either serve jail time, or at least give himself over to the authorities and have them decide what to do. It's pretty clear what I feel JP should have done, my question is do you feel James Penn holds a get out of jail free card by writing No Regrets? And is that all he should've done to clear his name and his history of supporting child abuse? You say, "I am in support of seeking justice. I am also tired of rhetoric". Rhetoric to me is speaking out to bring public awareness to TF regardless if justice is served. That is my minimum. How do you suggest we seek justice if we can't speak out? The difference between you and I is that I believe that Penn and co. are just as guilty or more so than current TF members, you seem to imply that they should get away with it all just because they left TF. (reply to this comment)

From Information Thursday, June 08, 2006, 19:58 (Agree/Disagree?) If you feel the need to take my comment as a personal attack, that is your prerogative. In answer to your question, no, I do not believe that writing No Regrets is a get out of jail free card. I'm not sure what indications you have that I was part of The Family's spin machine. I was born in and raised in the group just like you. My family was traumatized by leaders and I personally suffered just as you have. Please by all means, speak out. I have done so myself and will continue to do so. You may equate speaking out with rhetoric. I do not. Jim will no doubt do as you say -- write what he feels the five could have done and continue to do -- it is, last I checked, still a free country. However, since he wasn't there, doesn't know these people personally, was not involved in any of the efforts former members have made to receive justice over the past decades, did not live through our abuse and has been out of the member/ ex-member scene from 1975 until 2005, how does that make him an expert on such matters?(reply to this comment)

From Question Thursday, June 08, 2006, 20:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I know who you are, you know who I am. You are not a victim of abuse, you are an abuser and spin doctor and you’re walking a very fine line trying to keep your cover. I really like this line, "was not involved in any of the efforts former members have made to receive justice over the past decades, did not live through our abuse and has been out of the member/ ex-member scene from 1975 until 2005" like that's supposed to mean anything? Like he's not part of your little boy club? You can try to twist this if you want but the bottom line is that any SGA that went thru TFI's abuse wouldn't be singing Penn's praises and anyone that read Penn's statements knows this mofo is guilty, it doesn't take a Jim to figure that one out. Just so the audience understands who you are not - you are not a victim of abuse, if you were you'd be balls out to nail a perp and could care less if it was Jim or Jack in the crack that was behind it. Why are you still trying to protect Penn and co. by trying to reason that someone else instead of Jim should call him out? Personally, I could really care less who nails him, Jim or other, I'm just glad it's out there. In fact, since you seem to feel so personally about who should be responsible to crack Penn , why don't you nominate them? Maybe someone that's been "involved with all of the efforts former members have made to receive justice over the past decades, lived through our abuse and has been in the member/ ex-member scene" for as long as you have?(reply to this comment)

From Information Friday, June 09, 2006, 08:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, I don't know who you are. What you write and the way you write it comes across so eerily as Jim LaMattery, I am assuming you are a LaMattery. And since Jim has managed to estrange most of his family and it is fairly easy to tick off the names, I am assuming you are John Jr. But I could be wrong. If it wasn't so ludicrous and childish to play "guess who I am" while being shielded through internet anonymity, I really would ask, "who the hell do you think I am". Because seriously, I have been left scratching my head and very curious as to who it is that fits the description of what you've written. If you continue to go on assumptions as if they are truth you will end up losing any credibility you may have had. That is why from the beginning of this thread I have asked you to keep it factual. Unfortunately you seem to translate this caution as a defense against James Penn. I have my doubts that you've met or spoken with every former SGA. Until you have, you are in no position to claim that "any SGA that went thru TFI's abuse wouldn't be singing Penn's praises and anyone that read Penn's statements knows this mofo is guilty". Rhetoric. James Penn was part of the first generation, yes. He was part of the spin that allowed WS and The Family to demonize those who spoke out, yes. That and much more, I am sure. He is no saint, he has much to atone for. But here is where I differ from you on this hunt of yours. On this website there are numerous first hand accounts of sexual and physical abuse against children by specific named individuals, some of them in and some of them out of The Family. To date, as far as I am aware, no SGA has claimed personal abuse by Penn. Why expend such time and energy going after someone who has already put himself out there and against whom no person has claimed an act of abuse when there are so many against whom not one or two, but many accusations have been made. With all of the specific named individuals who have committed horrendous crimes against children and who have been called out by name, why Penn? Because he felt guilty and as a form of repentance, confessed? Way to go genius! If there were ever any other FGAs sitting on the sidelines wondering if they should come forward with their information you've pretty much settled that now, haven't you?(reply to this comment)

From Question Friday, June 09, 2006, 10:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Penn, Ed, Apollos, Jack and Heather helped build and protect an organization that has harmed thousands of children and their extended families. Apollos in particular was the head of Creations and Berg's right hand man. No Regrets was a nice expose’, but did little to absolve the gang of any wrong doing. No Regrets was the minimum Penn could do. Since Penn and Ed post on these boards, I’d like to hear if they think No Regrets was adequate enough or if they think they could have done more to help break TF? (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Friday, June 09, 2006, 08:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh, I get it now, since no one has accused Mr. Penn of child-abuse, he is innocent, right?(reply to this comment)

From Anthony Friday, June 09, 2006, 08:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, I should have said "accused Mr. Penn publicly, or, to your knowledge." Fact is he has been accused of child-abuse, whether you know it or not!(reply to this comment)

From Friday, June 09, 2006, 09:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Anderson Cooper had the same question for Penn: COOPER: "Did you ever abuse children when you were in the group?" PENN: "That's a pretty invasive question, wouldn't you say?" That's an interesting response from a person that never abused a kid. (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, June 09, 2006, 09:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Another fact is that the same could be said of every FGA member of WS, present and former. So why him first? Because he's made himself an easy target by fessing up to his involvment, and it's more convenient to single him out?(reply to this comment)

From John Jr. Friday, June 09, 2006, 16:42 (Agree/Disagree?) That's a good question. Penn and co. hold more accountability than other FGA's because of their knowledge. In Penn's own words, "Zerby and Peter (Chris Smith) do pay off some people who leave the group, people who they perceive could do them harm if they started talking. I know of a number of people who got paid off in one way or another. People like Ricky and people like me." Why would TF pay off James Penn and co. if they didn't think he had something on them that could hurt them? They paid them all to be quiet for a year so they could get away with their criminal behavior and not have to worry about the gang turning them in. Instead of giving their information over to the proper authorities, they sold it back to The Family in the form of hush money. As an ending note, Penn should have never used Rick’s name by his, Rick deserved a lot more money than his mother gave him as do all the true victims of TF. (reply to this comment)

From ErikMagnusLehnsher Friday, June 09, 2006, 20:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Some thoughts: I've never met James Penn but I found his "No Regrets" and "These things still move me" to be very, very helpful. They were a powerful affirmation of many of my doubts and thoughts that I had wrestled with. I think TF Leadership quickly perceived how compelling "No Regrets" was and went to great lengths to try to mitigate its effect. If TF Leadership had dirt on the guy I have to think they would have unloaded everything they had (and then some) in the 1000's of pages of rebuttals. It seems to me like they were alarmed because of the fact that he was speaking out with credible information and basically had a clean record. If Penn had things like abusing kids in his history I suspect his position would have been too weak to write what he wrote. I would think that he would have melted into the shadows rather than draw attention to himself. I think the reason TF tried to make Penn comfortable when he initially left is precisely because they didn't want to have a "No Regrets"-type expose written. It seems to me that Penn could have easily walked away and never written anything as so, so many have. I credit him for writing what he did. Whether he could've or should've done more I don't think I can judge...but he did a shit-load more than most other FGA's and I can't figure out what possible incentive he could have for sticking his neck out like that other than a desire for truth to be told. Having never met Penn or Jim LaMattery I can only form an opinion based on what they've written and what others have written about them. While growing up in TF, I found myself in difficult and strange situations and was often relegated to looking for assistance or protection or advice from various adults. I was lucky enough to steer clear of the real assholes most of the time. Some adults were kind and helpful...others were not. I think the fact that Ricky trusted James Penn while considering leaving TF and after leaving, says something about the opinion that Ricky formed of him over the years and the kind of person that he is.(reply to this comment)

From Sharon Thursday, June 15, 2006, 07:19 (Agree/Disagree?) “While growing up in TF, I found myself in difficult and strange situations and was often relegated to looking for assistance or protection or advice from various adults. I was lucky enough to steer clear of the real assholes most of the time. Some adults were kind and helpful...others were not” I could not agree with that statement more. While Penn may or may not have an abusive past (I think just choosing to remain in the family at all gives an adult a certain level of culpability), I can only vouch for my own experiences with him as a child. I may have written this in a different section of this site, but he was the first adult who ever treated me like I was really worthwhile. He made a huge impression on me in that he took the time to get to know me—not in a sexual way—and would listen to me, hang out with me, and just generally treated me with the respect that every child deserved. That was something that in my experience was very rare in adult family members. On my birthday he took me to the beach and got me ice-cream when no one else in the home remembered it was my birthday. When I got older and told him I wanted to leave the family he was the only one in my home who encouraged me to follow my heart. He told me I would go far in the world and believed in me when everyone else told me I would be a burger flipper at best. A very good friend of mine, along with his siblings, has known Penn their entire lives in WS. I asked him one day what Penn was like in WS and he also had only good things to say about him. Again, I’m not saying he is not without guilt. He knows more than anyone what his level of guilt is and I believe he is trying to the best of his capability to atone for it. For what it’s worth, my own experiences have led me to believe that he was one of the few caring, genuine adults who were in the family. He has always been there for me and I will always consider him to be a friend. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 15, 2006, 09:17 (Agree/Disagree?) He sounds like a stand up cat.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, June 09, 2006, 18:19 (Agree/Disagree?) In reference to your ending note: It's obvious from Rick's own writings that he considered James Penn a good friend and confidant. Friends have a right to stand up for and defend eachother, don't you think?(reply to this comment)

From No one in particular Friday, June 09, 2006, 16:18 (Agree/Disagree?) The same could be said of many SGA's, especially as time goes on and the SG gets older. (reply to this comment)

From Hacked Thursday, June 08, 2006, 18:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Check out the new "Family" in Fallbrook, CA. http://www.fpac.us/the-new-family-in-fallbrook-california(reply to this comment)

From Andy doesn't get it Friday, June 09, 2006, 16:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Why is this "The new family". It's the same cult right? Whatever, maybe I'm just retarded.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, June 09, 2006, 16:25 (Agree/Disagree?) It's the same Family, just in a new neighborhood.(reply to this comment)

From Big Sister Friday, June 09, 2006, 01:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Pictures here of the mansion -http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:1HR9B7tXN1cJ:www.esquire-real-estate.com/mls/051047485.html+1665+Calmin+Drive,+Fallbrook,+CA.+92028&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2 I'm going to emai this to my sister in TF so she can see what her tithe money buys. (reply to this comment)

From uh huh Thursday, June 08, 2006, 10:38 (Agree/Disagree?) 'I think we can have an intelligent conversation without getting into the LaMattery saga again.' I really fucking hope so. (reply to this comment)

from Oh dear god, Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 07:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Please let's not get started on the ol' LaMattery drama again. (reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Friday, June 09, 2006, 01:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Really interesting, I wonder if it would be possible to get this kind of hostility and voracity and direct it to the ones that we all know have many countless crimes against children and the human psyche. Spending this kind of time and effort on bickering is why TF has won all these years. This movement to get justice has been going on for more years that some of us can remember and we haven't gotten anywhere...why? We let the petty crap get in the way of doing real good and we let TF poison our minds against eachother so that we are ineffective in getting the justice and shut these people up. They must be freakin genius's to be able to do sabotoge us for over 20 years, and we still keep falling for it. Whata shame!(reply to this comment)

From Yep Friday, June 09, 2006, 10:37 (Agree/Disagree?) And even more than that, there are people in the ex-FGA community that are guilty of crimes against children and are being forced to side on TF's side for their own protection. Of course they can't come out and say they're on TF's side, but they can sit back and spin and sabotage any united effort against TF. The truth is that these ex-fga's have more to lose then your average Family member since the exer's have settled down and are working on their retirements, TFer's can up and leave just like they always have as they have a support system in place to help them disappear. TF probably doesn't have nearly as many pedophiles in the group as it once did since it excommunicates them, that means we probably have more in the ex-member community than they do, and these guys have a lot more to lose than TF does.(reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Friday, June 09, 2006, 11:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Totally, but the fact still remains that it's more than just sexual abuse, there is physical abuse and emotional abuse not to mention brainwashing by more than just parents and some are still in the group. I'm sure there are many SGA's that are guilty of some form of abuse or another as well. It goes really deep and it's really complex and it's hard to analyse every issue. The fighting between eachother is really what gets me though, it's hard enough to deal with the things that happened to me as a kid and the things that I did myself to sit here and read the crap that's going on and not be a little disapointed. (reply to this comment)

From sigh Friday, June 09, 2006, 03:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I really think you are oversimplifying the issue if you seriously believe that the main obstacle to finding justice is 'petty crap' and 'letting TF poison our minds against each other'. I don't know how long it takes *you* to write a comment here but most of mine require about, oh, one minute's thought and, oh, about same for writing it, so I would hardly call it 'spending this kind of time and effort on bickering'. The difficulties in finding a way of bringing TFs leadership to some kind of accounting has little to do with us falling for their 'genius' attempts at sabotage and everything to do with the fact that it is nigh impossible to pin any of them down to anything at all. I for one have no desire at all to have anything to do with an effort to bring the cult leadership to court. I am sorry but I am too selfish and too preoccupied with trying to find my way in life. The cult took the first 25 years of my life and I'm damned if I am going to voluntarily lose the next ten years (or more) to a largely unproductive effort at directing my 'hostility' toward TF. I greatly admire those who feel driven to act as champions for those who were abused and I salute them for their strength and commitment to what is certainly a noble cause, but I just don't feel like that. I wish you'd quit your lecturing and accept that *you* might feel strongly about this issue, but others might not. Oh, and do tell, dear, what exactly are *you* doing within this movement for justice, hmmm? I should hope that you have taken multiple concrete steps to aid the effort, seeing as you choose to address all of us here in such a condescending manner. *disclaimer: you are perfectly entitiled to expressing your opinions. I am feeling pissy this morning and your comment just happened to remind me of one of those awful speeches by some self-righteous auntie, 'we' this and 'we' that, etc etc etc. If you are actively involved in some sort of effort against TF, I take my hat off to you.(reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Friday, June 09, 2006, 11:02 (Agree/Disagree?) What I'm doing? Well, for one I have been in contact with many different people about my brother and his situation. CourtTV was interested in his case when I was in the states, and my fault in that falling through the cracks was my husband getting orders to Japan, so now that has been put on hold for a bit. But I'm still trying to help him as much as I can. I gave a statement of my story to the FBI and spoke to Cris with them. Since I left I've helped every single one of my siblings and anyone else I knew that was leaving to get into a better situation once they decided to leave and being the oldest of 9 that was my responsibility since my parents were still in TF. Now I'm working on getting all the Treasure Attics out of the BX/PX here on Okinawa. I've been in contact with Cols and Commanders and many different IG officials about it. Oh and btw I have an interview with a reporter next week to do a piece on TF here overseas. "The difficulties in finding a way of bringing TFs leadership to some kind of accounting has little to do with us falling for their 'genius' ..." Bullcrap. How many cases has there been against TF in the last 20 years? Why did they get off? Just recently I was reading something about the raids in Australia and the case there and how it all went wrong cause the "SGA's" and the children didn't want to send their parents to prison so they lied. Countless times has there been opportunities to get these guys and somehow it's failed, not because there wasn't enough proof, cause there is more than most cases of abuse, it's cause someone got to someone or someone chickened out and lied. And now it's too late, statute of limitations has officially closed the case never to be opened again and TF can now go scott free for all the bad things they did to me and MY family. Oh Well, no biggie, its not like I CARED. Every case so far has fallen to pieces once someone loses their own fight with themselves and gives in to the guilt they feel in their own responsibility in all this. Trust me I know, I'm not a saint and I can't even begin to say I'm not guilting of doing some pretty bad stuff but I WAS a kid but the FGA's weren't and they have to be held accountable no matter who they are, our parents or uncles or whatever they might be to us. That's the hard part and it's supposed to be otherwise we wouldn't be human. If you have no desire to do anything then why even respond to anything anyone else has to say on these posts? Why bother? Just move on with your life and leave the hard stuff to us that do care. "*disclaimer: you are perfectly entitiled to expressing your opinions. I am feeling pissy this morning ..." Going off on MY opinion doesn't entitle you to sympathy from me for being pissy. Figure out how to handle your moods without spewing mud on everyone else. (reply to this comment)

From vix was too lazy to sign in Friday, June 09, 2006, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Heh, I like you! Seriously though, chill! I'm cool with your position, and I added that disclaimer precisely because I had a hunch that you were someone who walked the walk. I have the greatest respect for you, now that you have demonstrated that this is, in fact, the case. (reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Sunday, June 11, 2006, 23:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Interesting how this moves around on the board. I didn't move the article, weird. (reply to this comment)

From shaker Monday, June 12, 2006, 06:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Problem with speaking out is that in TF we were taught daily to be disloyal to each other EGs:sharing even if it was your sisters husband/boyfriend ,ratting on each other and so on just to many to list. Then there was the not being jealous "sharing again",which in effect made us all wanting to be the star of the show to get the attention so we didn't have to be jealous.I have seen this so many times when whoever speaks out gets shot down by other SG's on the board or dont or will not support the person speaking out because it is not them on the programe etc.I hope this doesn't happen in your case LL because TF love when we all do this to each other.I am for one glad you are speaking and also helping your siblings you are gold good work. I hope you succeed LL (reply to this comment)

From Lovelight23 Monday, June 12, 2006, 08:59 (Agree/Disagree?) One of the major flaws, besides the fact that TF was founded by a raging Pedophile, is the disloyalty and dishonesty that was bred into the group from the begin. I was reading today some of the writing on the pages of the Story of Davidito and it is all over it. One quote..."But it must be made very clear to your children that such sexual freedom must never be indulged in or practiced openly in the presence of visitors, strangers or uninitiated relatives and friends who have not been properly re-educated in the revolutionary sexual freedom of natural living." Disturbing on so many levels, but more disturbing than the obvious sexual issues is the 2 faced attitude that was not only encouraged but demanded of us. This idea of "deceivers yet true" is something that we all grew up with and were told to practice at all times. One of the reasons they have managed to stay out of jail is because of this total disregard of honesty and general practice of deceit. Talk about ethical nightmare, and now I know why my blood boils when I get lied to by anyone, friends and my son and my husband. My bullshit meter is so high that it's hard for me to trust anything anyone tells me and it's sooo easy for me to spot a lie and a liar. I have radar for it...it's really quite scary sometimes to my husband. I lose friends because I can't tolerate lies in any shape or form. It weird too cause the flip side of this is that I'm also a very good liar and very believable. In my time in TF I was able to lie for years about what I was feeling and I lied all the time when going out witnessing and getting people to give me money for something that I knew was the biggest freakin lie. Lies were my life for so many years it was really hard for me to turn that off on the outside. I had a real awakening of sorts, not only were people not the demons that we were told they were but they were honest, I found my zen and realized what I really really wanted was truth. Don't know if this is making any sense whatsoever but just have to write something today. I'm going to be speaking to a reporter tomorrow and I guess I'm nervous and a bit worried cause I know I'm going to have to tell my story and it's going to be hard. Anyway, I know that everyone lies, business lie and lies are everywhere, but after I sifted through what I knew were lies I was able to see a honesty that I hadn't experienced ever in my life and I knew that that was what I wanted. I developed a creed that was my own and my ethics evolved by what I was seeing around me and what I sifted through both my experiences in TF and out and found that it's all in my heart. I do what I feel in my heart to be right and honest and true to myself as well as to my family and friends. I'm going to quote a bible verse that has really been my life and I'm sure that everyone has heard a thousand and one times cause deep down I know that I still believe in God and I believe in the Bible and what it tells me personally. I don't practice religion and certainly don't go to church or preach to my friends or any of the things that I used to do in TF but I deeply believe in what the bible says about "Love thy neighbor as thyself" Mark 12:31. I kind of ignore the part of love the lord thy god since I'm not so sure about that part, but that last part is easy for anyone to understand. If I love my neighbor I won't steal, I won't commit adultery, I won't covet his belongings, I won't BEAR FALSE WITNESS or in otherwords DON'T LIE, I won't Kill and all that more complicated stuff. That's my life creed, that's my motto, that's MY message to the world. Hell, I don't even care of the world hears me, all that matters is what I do with my own life and the kind of mother and wife I am. I have good friends cause of my outlook and the genuineness I share with them, I'm there for them when they need me and I listen to them when they are upset about something and they do the same for me. And almost all of my very best friends are not former family members or even heard of it. I have told a few about it and been totally honest with them about my past and what TF is about. All of them accept me as is and are very understanding about my childhood and don't care. Being a good friend and person is important to me, being a good mother is important to me and so is being a faithful and honest wife. I figure if I can do those things then everything else doesn't matter and will work out on it's own. But sometimes you have to push the envelope and sometimes you have to give life a shove to get the results that you need and hopefully I'm able to see when I have to do that and when I don't. Ok, gotten a bit off track with what I was trying to say, but in response to your comment Shaker, thank you, I see there are people that can look back at all this and really be able to break it down to get to the big issues. I read today that letter from Zerby in response to the SGA's questions...I'm not even sure I have a response myself to that letter, but I can say that this is the kind of attitude and responses that I've heard all my life. Reminds me of that saying "Not my place to question why but to do or die." So militant, I almost wish sometimes that they were terrorist that way the government would have a reason to wipe them out. People are funny about being lied too, in or out of TF, is disrespectful and it's offensive. If offends me to no end, I'm pretty sure it's because I was lied to most of my life, and probably more so because I was forced to lie to others as well for most of my life that I can't tolerate it in any shape or form. If I'm lied to by one of my friends, they are just no longer my friends, sometimes I'm honest to a point of brutality, I don't keep secrets from my husband or from the ones closest too me, it's not healthy. If there is one thing that I have learned from my experience in TF is that Honesty and Loyalty is a virtue, one that TF lacks and will never have apparently. And one thing that I've realized with the posts on here is that the behaviour of dishonesty and disloyalty is a learned behaviour from time in TF that so many SGA's and FGA's carry to this point. Deceivers yet True doesn't apply to the real world, people! One other thing that I've learned about myself on the posts is that I don't really care if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm going to do what I feel in my heart is right, after careful discussion with my husband of course...;) I think the Judgment of Justice Ward said in his conclusion is what we should all strive for and accept nothing less. TF must denounce Berg and all his practices and all his teachings, until then I will not stop asking the hard questions making the hard statements and expecting them to do the hard thing, the right thing. :) Since so many of us are unwilling or feel it's unfair to send them to jail it seems that this would be the fair thing. It would give so many of us closer and more than that it is the right thing cause he was really a bad man that did bad things and created more bad people with his bad behaviour. I thought about some of the things that I was reading in the Story of Davidito and the thought came to me that Sara couldn't have possibly started off as a pedophile, she was created by berg, of course she had the power to decide whether this was who she was and obviously she failed miserably in that, same goes for Maria, Peter and Alf and all the rest of the ones that molested Ricky or anyone. Bottom Line is that it's understandable that they aren't all pedophiles but they were created and who created them but Berg himself, so who would be the one at fault in all this? Answer is pretty easy in my mind, don't know why it's not in theirs. Their loyalty to him is misplaced and a little surprising and when they die, like we all will one day, they will be the ones to face God and have to explain that to him when that time comes. Anyway, once again gotten long winded...sorry. :) But I guess I had something to say!!! About all this stuff with Jim, y'all really. I've talked with him many times, and dealt with him for over a year now, he's been honest with me about everything I've ever asked him, and believe me I could spot a liar a mile away, or in his case 3000 miles. But the bottom line is he's trying to help as much as he can, he wants to do something to help those he feels are his children and in his heart he's doing something that means a whole lot to him, I believe he feels guilty for not being able to save his daughters or not realizing that he needed too, but he's trying to earn restitution and do what he can for those he can now. He's not trying to make money off of this, in all honest though money is the way to so many doors and if he could make money I know in my heart that he would use it to do more and help more people and not to profit. If he can get results I'm all for whatever it is that he can do, and if he's able to make some money so that he can pay his own bills and expenses to be able to do more for those that need it, so be it. I don't begrudge anyone that if they can do it. I wish I Could make money on my story so that I could help my brother with the best appeal he can get, or make money with his story to get him a better appeal, and if Jim can do that as well...I am all for it!!! Let him do what he does best...he's willing to step up and do what he can to help and far be it from me to discourage him or talk smack about him...sure he's not perfect and I'm sure he knows he's made mistakes but he's trying to do more than a lot of us have ever done so he's got to get props for that in my book. :) Good Work Jim!!!(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, June 12, 2006, 12:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Lovelight, I was much like you several years ago. I was all for holding the Family accountable for what they've done at all cost. But, time and experience have taught me a lot. Not everything is black and white. Sometimes the victims and their pain is very much wrapped up in the very thing we all hate, the cult. Sometimes protecting victims is more important than justice and sometimes justice is obtained in indirect ways. I think this is something we all learned differently. I think this is something Jim la Mattery hasn't yet learned. I've seen first hand the damage he's done. I've also spoken with him and seen how very dedicated he is. Yet, he is dangerous until he realizes that justice is about the victims and not about the advenger. It's not as simple as talking "smack". It's much more complicated. There has been real damage done by this man for all his trying to do good. He has threatened victims. He's retraumatized victims. His actions have taught me a lot. Most importantly that the ends don't justify the means. If we can save the children of this cult, of which I am one, just one moment's additional pain, then that is worth all the revenge and justice after they are gone. Please rest assured that many a truly dedicated and sincere person has come before you trusting Jim la Mattery, but what the author of the recent article on exfamily.org said is so true. There are ex-SGAs now ready and willing to fight their own battles and better equipped to do it. I'd put my money on Daniel Roselle, Andy Stone, Jules, JohnnyWalker or any number of the people on this website knowing that their first hand knowledge, dedication and genuine concern and understanding for their fellow victims gives them the advantage in speaking about what happened to us all and chosing what to do about it. (reply to this comment)