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Getting On : Education

The Family's Response to Concerns Regarding Education

from Jules - Friday, January 24, 2003
accessed 2358 times

I was recently sent a copy of the following article, which was written by Marc (Lonnie Davis) and Claire (Borowick), who are the Media representatives for the Family in North America.

Below are some excerpts from the response to concerns that have been raised by some of us in regards to the substandard and/or nonexistent education we experienced.

To contact Marc and Claire, write to NAFamily@aol.com

FSM 398 CM/FM January 2003

Dispelling the Myths about Family Education, and what you should know about homeschooling!
By Marc and Claire, U.S. (for the North American PR Board)

After having worked in Family public relations for the past ten years, we've often been called upon to explain our Family's educational system to people outside of our movement. We've also replied to allegations by some detractors who claim that Family schooling does not provide an adequate education, due to usually not being in a traditional nine-to-three institutional classroom.
Such questioning often reflects ignorance of the effectiveness of homeschooling, its policies, its requirements, and researchers' findings about it. Nor do these claims take into account the unique aspects of Family education and Family-acquired skills, aspects that would only be available to students of higher education in System institutions. We have also encountered a number of CM/FM young people who have been somewhat affected by these negative comments and conclusions, while being unaware of the facts.
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Thank the Lord for the wonderful education He has provided for our Family-for the second generation as well as new disciples who have benefited from the CVC and Word studies available. Along with godly training from study of the Word, there are the many treasures of the Spirit He has given us! As spokespeople who interact regularly with many university professors and professionals, and who are called upon often to speak about our beliefs to reporters and former members, we can only say that we have come to treasure the blessings the Lord has given us in His education plan, when carried out faithfully according to the requirements in the Charter.
Of course, as in every aspect of our lives for the Lord, if we as parents or young people don't do our part to live up to those requirements and make the needed efforts to ensure that our children (or we) receive an adequate education, it won't bear the fruit it could. We must carry the responsibility for this. However, we have seen that if we are faithful to follow and avail ourselves of the wealth of counsel, materials, Word, and experience at our fingertips in the Family, Family young people from a wide variety of backgrounds have no problem excelling in high school testing, college entrance exams, etc. The vast majority of Family young people, despite the many changes inherent in missionary life, have nevertheless received a very good education, and in many cases, an outstanding one that far surpasses a "normal" education.
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One academic met with Peter many years back and asked an interesting question. He asked if Peter foresaw the second generation becoming college-educated. Peter answered in a noncommittal fashion that some might end up going to college. The academic exclaimed strongly, "Don't ever send your kids to college or university, or they'll end up talking like me!" This academic has continually shared with us how important and unique we are in our beliefs and faith.
On another occasion, we were discussing Ph.D. students with a professor.* We have heard of several Ph.D. students along the way who have had nervous breakdowns. They have literally cracked up during their graduate years and never returned to their studies, deciding to pursue an entirely different path in life. The stress involved seemed pretty alarming (one such student literally went insane, poor fellow), and we wondered why this happens. The professor's reply was unforgettable. "We holders of Ph.D.s are the 'survivors.' We are the very few that make it through the entire program and receive our degrees." The difficulties and dangers involved in going this route confirmed the truth of the pitfalls of higher education explained so clearly in the Letters. (See "Conviction vs. Compromise, Pt. 5," ML #3365, GN 963. There are many other MLs on this topic; check 'em out!)
*1 Ph.D. is the abbreviation for "Doctor of Philosophy." In the U.S., college or university students first study for a bachelor's degree, which usually takes about four years of solid study; during that time they are referred to as "undergraduates." As graduates or post-graduates, they go on to studying for a master's degree that usually takes one or two years more. After a master's comes study for a doctorate, which can take three, four, or many more years, depending on the requirements of the field of study.
It also reminded us that, like Ph.D. students, being professional Family members takes investing all, forsaking all other aspirations, and focusing all our energies on the goal. And in our case the goal is to follow the Lord all the way and be the best professional missionaries we can be.
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Facts about Family education
A lot of the education second-generation members receive in the Family cannot be measured by "pencil pusher" standards, such as learning foreign languages, performing arts, office skills and computer science, personnel management, teaching, counseling, as well as vocational skills such as auto mechanics, electrical engineering, carpentry, construction, culinary arts, home management, and more. It's sad when folks aren't able to appreciate all the educational and vocational skills that they have learned in the Family. Of course, many of those who have left have taken those skills and used them professionally, from hi-tech computer programming, to working with film studios using Family-learned filming skills, to professional performing, acting, management. The list is endless.
Many former members of the second generation have opted for higher education, availing themselves of the multitude of scholarships and grants available to them. Many have excelled in university and ended up at the top of their class as valedictorians or honor students. Some have become lawyers, nurses, teachers, and managers. Others have started their own companies.
There are also some former-member young folks that move into manual labor, flipping burgers, and even stripping. The question then arises as to why, if they had received a good education, would they not be able to secure what are considered better jobs?
As the statistics above show, actually only a small percentage of people in the System attend college or university. Only 88% graduate from high school, and of that 88%, less than 30% will complete college. As such, it would be very unrealistic to expect that each young person who leaves the Family must either become a college graduate or be deemed a failure.
Once young folks opt for a career other than that of a Family missionary, they face the same obstacles to success any other person in the world does, and will discover that it is not an easy route for any, regardless of their upbringing. It is unrealistic to expect that every young person who leaves the Family will secure a high paying and prestigious job; surveys will show that this is not the norm even in the world.
It is to be expected that every parent who sees his or her children move on to another lifestyle would like to see them succeed and be outstanding in some way. The choices, however, depend on the individual. Just as it requires a measure of self-sacrifice and dedication to be a professional missionary, the same is required of those who wish to "succeed" in the secular realm. So the fact that some young people do leave and start off with such seemingly low-level jobs (albeit high paying-which is another part of their attraction) is not surprising, as a person's success will depend in a great measure on their own efforts and goals.
It is also true that according to the Charter, it is the responsibility of the parents to assist their children as much as possible when they leave the Family. In line with this, Family parents have taken action to help their children get set up and established on a new path in life. We can thank the Lord also for the power of prayer invested on behalf of those moving on.
There are a number of former-member young people who are successfully going through university and earning degrees. Were they exceptional? In most cases, no. Most have taken a GED test, a college-entrance examination, and entered on the same footing as any other student, except with the added blessing that they have acquired a lot of skills, poise, languages, and experience that most young people have not had the opportunity of acquiring with a public school education.
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Reader's comments on this article

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from exister
Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 13:44

(Agree/Disagree?)

What a load of bunk. It still doesn't explain why current members give you a blank stare when you bring up any matter of substance.

I tried to communicate with my older brother when I saw him for the first time in 7 years. I started talking about work (a trauma center at the time) and all I got in response was a smile and a nod, and he's supposed to be one of the smart ones.

Also, from the comments below I am glad I never ran into these sickos!
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from A College Senior
Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 14:09

(Agree/Disagree?)

I'm not sure how 30% of Americans completing college can be consider a low statistic. However, in defence of Marc and Claire, they did help me a lot when I expressed a desire to go to college. I don't know about Claire's history but when I lived with her a few years ago, she was very supportive of any young people in her home that wanted to further their education. 


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From
Wednesday, April 16, 2003, 20:32

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This is very interesting, thanks.  May I inquire what kind of help they gave you?  And in what way were they supportive of the young people who wanted an education?  Was this before the "Conviction or Compromise" policy?

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From The Senior
Thursday, April 17, 2003, 10:46

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Agree/Disagree?)

It was before the "Conviction or Compromise" as I had already left TF when that came out. Marc and Claire invited me to join their home knowing I intented to go to college. They gave me plenty of time off to study for the college entrance exams (I was in my early 20's, so they really had no obligation to help me get an education) and  let me attend a community college while living in their home. I don't think there are that many homes that would've allowed that. Then, when I decided to leave TF, they reacted to my decision in a very positive, supportive manner and helped me financially. Of course, I can say that that was the least they could do as I was a good fundraiser and did a lot to help support their home. But still, not every home has been as generous to people who've left TF.  At the time I lived with them, two of the other young adults in their home were also working on outside certificate or degree programs.


As I said, I can't speak for their past. I do know that when I was around Claire, she seemed to value education. Maybe they've learned through experience that if they help us with the tools to leave and get on with our lives successfully, we tend to be more positive about our past. They probably also now realize that there are much worse places we could end up in our lives than in college.  

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From Thinking outside TF box
Thursday, April 17, 2003, 12:17

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Agree/Disagree?)

I am not sure how if one is 20 and raised in TF, and is/has only ever worked to support TF homes (and not for one's own benefit) TF has no obligation to help you get an education. 


They like to wash their hands of all kinds of different responsiblities by making up limitations to what their duties are.  Limitations that from an outsider's perspective are laughable.  They take on an awful lot of liability with their communal lifestyle and "shepherding" structure. 


If anyone who had been through that (and I mean even those who were not raped/beaten etc., but "just" deprived in other ways) had the money and the time (we are all so busy catching up) plus the ability to emotionally cope with such a grueling process (unless of course they decided to change their response to us), this could be demonstrated --i.e., that their invented limits of responsibility are a big fat joke (and they are big fat doodleheads).  They say "the parents" or "the young person" has the duty.  But they are applying free-capitalism rules to a communal system. 


The money goes up, every month, from every home, tax free, no salaries, retirement benefits or health insurance expenses paid.  We kept nothing.


They have everybody freaked out about participating in seeking justice, becase the paradigm has not been sufficiently replaced in our psyches.


We have not been able to get rid of the vestiges among us of fear that by seeking justice, "your parents and brothers and sisters" are being turned over to AC forces who would like nothing better than to wipe them out.


The reality of seeking justice (now that apparently child sex abuse and vistor camps have been stopped as an institutional policy) is that of compensation. 


I have heard they say "its OUR children who should be compensated!"  I ask, whose children are WE?


And shouldn't we be listened to when it comes to what we deserve compensation for, what caused us damages?


I am very glad that some people are now being treated as you say, and not how I was.  This is a great improvement.  I hope you'll forgive my astonishment, but what you are saying is a world away from what it was like for me, when I left early in the 90s.

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From The Senior
Thursday, April 17, 2003, 15:01

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To explain what I said about not having an obligation to help someone in his or her 20's to get an education, I was writing that from TF's viewpoint. As far as most current members are concerned, they seem to think they only have an obligation to make sure their children and teens get adequate time to study (and even that isn't enforced).


I know I had it easy compared to those who left back in the days when they were still hoping that "backsliders" would fail so that they could be used as an example of "what will happen to you if you leave".  

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From Unboxed
Thursday, April 17, 2003, 15:25

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Thanks, Senior, for your response.  I hear ya.  Well, now you're a Senior, and have earned an asset that will make your life better for yourself.  Congrats, and best for afterward!  It's a sucky time to be looking for jobs, I'll bet.  Or maybe you're doing grad school?  I did grad school for 4 years.  Cost a lot that I owe, but I bought the best.  The rewards are much greater than the cost, and give benefits that are intangible but immeasurably valuable.  I can think myself out of any damn box someone tries to pack me in!(reply to this comment
From Senior
Saturday, April 19, 2003, 14:56

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Fortunately, I probably won't owe anything when I graduate. I've been able to get most of my education financed through grants and scholarships. The university I attend is pretty expensive (6+ grand a year) so I'm really glad I don't have to cough up too much of that expense. I should be able to find a job easily but I probably won't make much (I'm an education major). I do plan on going on to grad school but I might wait on that for a few years. I'll never regret my decision of going to college.  (reply to this comment
From one who knows
Monday, April 18, 2005, 16:22

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6 grand a year is nothing. 20-40 grand a year, now that would be pretty expensive.(reply to this comment
From Historian
Wednesday, April 16, 2003, 16:09

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I was under the tutelage (can't call it care) of Claire in the bad old days.  Believe me, it was different before. 


Perhaps the English case had an effect.  With regard to the (lack of) medical care in a case under her shepherding watch, the judge found the caretakers of the minor to have demonstrated "callous disregard" for her welfare.


Mind you, this was a life and death medical matter.

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from feeling cheated
Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 10:11

(Agree/Disagree?)
It's a funny thing to me that TF never mentions when gushing over all the "training" and "educucation" and "experience" that we had, is the fact that we never had a choice over what sort of "training" or "ministries" that we got our "experience" in...
Did anyone ever get to choose whether they were on Childcare or a Secretary? If you wanted to sing, if you thought you had talent, did YOU get to choose to be on "the singing team"? No, if fact, often if you did think you had some talent, you were too "proud" to be involved with singing.... You did not choose whether you were the cook or the garbage boy, whether you were a "driver buddy", or the JJT overseer. And if--God forbid--you ever started "doing bad spiritually", you were immediately "demoted" to some toilet-scrubbing "ministry."
I think that is a very big difference that they don't seem to see (no matter how obvious), and that is that we can now CHOOSE to study computer programming (or law, or medicine, or cooking, etc) because we want to, not because we are placed there, AND without the fear of flunking out for listening to "system music."
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from JoeH
Friday, February 14, 2003 - 19:08

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Their synopsis of higher education as turning people into nervous wrecks was only partly accurate. I'm currently taking 5 classes (20 credits), which for you ignorant CMers is well over the maximum allowed (I had to get special permission to take this many). It's stressful, it's a load that's always in the back of my mind even when I try to take some time to relax, and it's a lot of hard work. I'm also broke even though I work 18 hours a week, so at this point I'm literally a starving student. However, I have a comforting thought that I can always resort to: I've been through much much worse. No one here's going to beat me with a 2x4 3 times a day if I don't ask for prayer, no one will make me stay outside 16 hours of the day in the dead of winter because my evil spirit is a bad influence on the other children, and no one is trying to perform Mene-style exorcisms on me or forcing me to lie in bed fasting reading the DBs. In short, I'd rather have a nervous breakdown in the belly of higher education than spend one single day living the life of what they call a "Professional Christian."

Don't pity me, pity your pathetic ignorant selves.
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from This is embarassing...
Friday, February 14, 2003 - 01:33

(Agree/Disagree?)
...but it's the truth. I grew up as a national in a country where English was not the first language. For example, I used to call my mom the local word for mommy, until I was corrected by the shepherdess to say "Mommy" in English instead(and for those of you who might think I am just making this up, you can polygraph me, this is the honest to God truth.). So guess what? I stopped talking in the local language, and now I am fluent in English, but I can't speak the local language (where I lived my whole life) well at all. I sound like a foreigner speaking the local language! How's that for education?

And Jules, was this FSM sent to you from TF? Or was it something that just given indirectly? Because if it was something that was actually sent from one of the reps of TF, I thought it was hella rude, considering we ARE those kids, and we're going through a lot of hardships due to TF's views on Education. Don't try to tell us it was one way, when it wasn't!

I've always had this question ever since the Tony Series came out (I guess I was "harboring doubts" waaay back then, or just THINKING ON MY OWN), but I remember Tony had mentioned something about education and going out and working for the system, and Grandpa or Maria came back with, "You would be slaving away from 9-5 anyways working for mammon at some horrible job, and you'll have some boss breathing down your neck, etc." I remember thinking, "I'm sure if you studied hard, you can do better than that!" --And you know what? You can! My husband doesn't have a 9-5 job, he can work whenever he wants to, and take whatever days he wants off, he worked real hard at a degree on his time off, and he LOVES his job, he makes a lot of money! Why did Maria have to write all the horrible things about working? EVERYONE out here in the world works, it's nothing to be scared of, you can start at a small job, but you can keep on advancing. Okay, if your boss was going to be breathing down your neck if you worked a system job, then remember TF? I had them breathing down my neck for not taking care of THEIR kids, I had no choice about what I wanted to do, I couldn't be on the show group because my dancing and singing skills were zero, so all there was left was childcare. Was Maria trying to scare us into staying? I worked my butt off in the Family, I was a full-time teacher when I was a JETT/junior teen, and the only time I wasn't with the kids was 7-8pm when the parents took them for "Family time". And I really have nothing to show for that (Resume-Past Work Experience: When I was 11-13yrs old = Elementary school teacher. RIGHT!). Puh-leeze!! Don't tell me about how good the Family education is, I went through it!!!

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From Joe H
Friday, November 14, 2003, 12:14

(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, and even if you do have one of those 9-5 (more like 8-5) jobs, at least your boss doesn't live in your house, wake you up with an awful song every morning, and tell you how to clean your toilet. The one thing their "education" did give us was the ability to stomach a lot more bullshit. (reply to this comment
From Sanders
Thursday, April 17, 2003, 14:16

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As a current education major I actually had to downplay my childcare experience because it would sound so strange if I documented that I had worked with large groups of children from the time I was twelve. And one thing I've found about all that childcare experience is, it really didn't prepare me much for teaching as a profession. TF is stuck using teaching methods and materials that are WAY outdated. As are their ideas about child development. Making 13 year olds teachers (when we barely had a sixth grade education) is proof that their teaching philosophy belongs in the 1800's. (reply to this comment
from Lost my Chance to be in the Arts
Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 23:04

(Agree/Disagree?)
Performing ARTS??? HahaHAhahAhaHaaaaaah....

how many:

virtuoso violinists?

people who can play a piano concerto?

ballet dancers?

people who can sing a proper aria?

method actors?

conductors?

people who can dance in a Broadway show?

I am sure many of us could have. But not with their "training." All most knew how to do was smile and strum some chords, sing harmonies in thirds or fifths. And if there were others like me, constantly getting kicked off the singing team to handwash 70 people's laundry outdoors in winter with no hot water...

I know some people made it out and will be able to pursue an art they love due to their determination or sheer genius. Others, because of their circumstances or depending on what art requiring early exposure or training, well, we shall never know. But how many of us missed chances for things we'd have been suited to? I am not just talking the arts, but I sure would have liked to be able to grow up being able to wonder, to dream "what do I want to be when I grow up?" Even just to be allowed what I loved as a hobby, would have been great!
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From MGP
Wednesday, February 19, 2003, 13:04

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Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah I know how you feel, I always wanted to learn Piano, but was told "NO". With reluctance I strummed a guitar, until I was old enough to afford an electric and to this day I still play it.

So, yes I was held back, but I always think of that good thots story about the master and the prima ballerina. "No, I don't think so...if you had what it takes you wouldn't have paid any attention to what I told you"

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From note however...
Wednesday, February 19, 2003, 14:22

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The reality for precisely ballet happens to be that you must start young. For a female, you must start very young. So what the teacher was talking about was persistence, and that's true, but that student had the opportunity to get started and was then faced with the choice of persisting or not. Without the opportunity for a basic training, there is no question of persisting or not. It's moot.

The kind of persistence your anecdote alludes to is precisely what will save many of us SGs from a life of minimum wages or less. However, for some of us, there are certain dreams we will never even get to pursue at all (let alone persist or succeed in) because age 18 or even 14 or so when we managed to get out is just too late.

Our persistence can get us to other very worthwhile places, but certain avenues are barred to us thanks to our upbringing.

The point is not that we will get nowhere. If we had the courage to leave the only world we knew, it is likely we have more in mind than sitting around and giving up. Most of us will struggle hard, and will overcome our poor preparation and the trauma we have endured.

The point is that they narrowed our choices unacceptably.(reply to this comment
From MGP
Thursday, February 20, 2003, 12:30

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Youre proving my point.

I have loads of broken dreams - or perhaps they were just fantasies?

We certainly have to realisically ascertain, what disadvantages did we have that outside we wouldnt have had?

Just cause u were born in the system doesnt mean that your parents would indulge you by supporting you chase your dreams.(reply to this comment
From katrim4
Thursday, February 20, 2003, 13:10

(Agree/Disagree?)
True, but when I wanted to learn vionlin my parents said it was a waste of time and a waste of the "Lord's money". My little brother on the other hand is now in public school and is learning violin as part of a school sponsored programme. Some things are just more available to you when you don't grow up in a cult regardless of what your parents do or do not support.(reply to this comment
from Jovi
Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 22:25

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I understand this response, it hepls to excuse some of the resons why some ppl or i should say most yp in the fam didn't get a good formal education.
What i don't understand is why they give this lame old argument of ''students having nervuos breakdowns'' or that so and so told peter ''if they go to college they'll end up talking like me''.
I mean what is that????
I'll try to be fair here, I know some ppl in the fam who have given their kids a good education specialy after the charter, but not every one have done it.
But the point here is why quote what an academics said, what's wrong with having more profesionals in the fam, what's wrong with young ppl wanning to go to college, educated ppl who could really help in a much bigger way than just going around seling a tape or a video.
This are no longer my worries cause I'm not in the fam anymore.But it's fair to give a good chance to the yp in the fam for a good education.
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from exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 18:21

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
I can't believe that I actually took the time to read your moronic article, Claire and Mark; but shit, I was bored, so I did!

I'm elated to see the way your coward arses love to depict formal education; being that it's the most white trash, ignorant, interpretation of knowledge, therefore you prove your own point without even knowing it; you guys don't have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about!


Then again, anyone who takes any post secondary education, is fully aware how to referrencance the sources they are using to back up their (supossed) claims....you haven't....geez, wonder why? They must be ficticious!

Of course higher education is a sacrifice! And yes, only the ones who have the balls to earn their degrees will do so! But guess what? Knowledge brings a very important element into ones personal life; an element the family will never teach, for it would contradict the mind control schemes it (TF) loves to have over it's members! The element I'm speaking of is that of being able to think, to learn, and to make educated choices based on ones findings; all other things aside! The ability in ones own personal choices and self esteem, so that they are not ignorant enough to believe the first religious fanatic who happens to drop into their lives!

Ah, knowledge! What a beautiful thing! Going into a library and knowing that one is able to access UN-CENSORED (such as all TF's material is) information on any subject they may fancy!
When I was in TF I was so bored with the pornographic publishing's of terd-berg (Incest, Davidito book, Heaven girls. mene stories, etc.) not to mention the poor grammar his publishings contained, that I devised ways to sneak and hide (under my mattress) dictionaries and books most children would consider normal reading material! Tell me that this is not wrong?

If you guys (as in TF) are so proud of your educational standards, why, at least during the first 17 years of my life, was everything hidden and censored from me?!!!!!!

Then again, I'm not the closed minded person who's chosen to remove themselves from new forms of thought, the way that TF family has!

I personally believe, that any individual who is too caught up in personal dogma or beliefs, will self-destruct, simply because in so doing they eliminate the opportunity to realize that there are NEW ideas and possibilities in this world which must be recognized and embraced, if one is to evolve.

TF will never arive to this prior conclusion, being that they are too closed minded! Not to mention TF's lack of cojones (or balls) to respond to legitimate queries posted on this site.

Yes, education is a tremendous sacrifice, particularily when ones parents are as irresponisble as any family's members are! Yet, anyone who's half way civilized will accept the benefits education has to offer those willing to face the challenge. These same individuals will also recognize the way the family loves to slam education; must be becuase they feel guilty for having deprived NORMAL kids out of a NORMAL life, choosing instead to place us in rooms, stacked in 'trundle beds', like sardines, and to place us in paranoid settings such as Teen Training Camps, and Teen Combo's, during which we had to face being placed on sex schedules. Not to mention the whole child labor issue!

Try as much as you want to defend your pitiful cause; guess what? There's a world of scholar's who'd beg to differ with you!

And, since you love to back up claims from 'ghost' PhD's, why not tell us who these people are, who they work for, and where they earned their credentials from so that we, as second generation kids, can do our own research? Nope, I already know that you won't, for fear of the consequences our findings would produce.
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from Baffled
Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 08:28

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What a load of OLD SHITE - and please, do you have to - with the picture???
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from Katrina
Monday, January 27, 2003 - 19:52

(Agree/Disagree?)
"Facts about Family education
A lot of the education second-generation members receive in the Family cannot be measured by "pencil pusher" standards, such as learning foreign languages, performing arts, office skills and computer science, personnel management, teaching, counseling, as well as vocational skills such as auto mechanics, electrical engineering, carpentry, construction, culinary arts, home management, and more." This to me was an interesting quote as the last time that I checked with the local community college all of these were available as courses for which you could get college credits.
Sure knowing a foreign laguage is great but doesn't make you ultra special. There are hundreds of thousands of people that speak, read and write 2 languages. "Performing Arts".......um as in now we can strip without any problem..TYJ. "Office Skills" last time I worked in a Fam office they were still using antequated software. "Computer Science" , maybe if you were in WS. I don't think praying for people to get over their battles or writting up a schedule counts as "personelle management". And no, taking care of a group of children 24/7 does not automatically make you a teacher."Counselling", doesn't even need an explaition. As for all of the vocational skills that are listed, even if you did learn how to do those things and got really good at it, no one is going to hire you without some sort of proof that you can do it.
Maybe Claire and Mark can try again and this time use what little brain cells they have left to think up something more beleivable.
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From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 17:26

Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)
Yo, girl,
You know Mark and Claire are unable to use what little brain cells they could hope to have because they've already 86'd (a restaurant term that is used when an item of food runs out!) all of them (as in brain cells) with the blatant lies they love to propogate, not to mention their twisted child abuse!


(reply to this comment
from Mir
Monday, January 27, 2003 - 06:32

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Management!!!! Culinary Arts!!! LOL!!
What a freaking joke!!! Do you think maybe they meant "we have taught our kids to be perfect slaves in every aspect, physically, emotionally, spiritually and sexually" That would've been a bit more accurate! And what's with the photo? Don't they realise how WEIRD they look? LOL!
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From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 17:29

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Yup, 'management' and 'culinary arts' MY ASS! I know all about slaving away in kitchens, sans pay, only to have to face the world on my own when I chose to run away at 17; and my mom was too pussy shit (pardon the pun, but in this case I think that it is well deserved) to lift a helping hand for me.

(reply to this comment
from JohnnieWalker
Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 15:15

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I find it highly ironic, that a publication which praises the benifits of Family education contains a note in it explaining to the Family what Ph.D means and stands for.
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From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 17:31

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Well, of course, it's ironic! Then again, don't ask me why 25 year old second generation members, who've been out for less than two years, and who have children, ask me what the term 'incorporated' stands for!(reply to this comment
From JoeH
Sunday, January 26, 2003, 18:00

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Also, the only hard evidence comes from the census bureau and only applies to the secular US population. All the claims they make about the brilliance of their children are supported by anecdotal evidence alone, not to mention a bunch of hearsay and conjecture.(reply to this comment
From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 17:39

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You got that right buddy! Anyone with a brain the size of a pea, knows better than to validate the census bureau or IQ tests! They mean nothing! Not to mention that most American's lie on their census reports, because they don't think that the govt. has the right to meddle in their own business!

The family can say whatever the hell they want! Yet, note, it's a hoot to see that most of the brainwashed, first generation members, aren't educated or accredited by any well known institution.

I'm not one to say that a degree is all that there is in life! But I will say, that the way TF tries to act like they are so informed about educational standards, is a CROCK! Being that most of it's member's have ZERO formal training! And, therefore, (most) cog/family members are not licensed to do so.(reply to this comment
from CVC=a load of crock
Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 13:59

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Sheesh, I can't believe they brought up the "CVC" course at all. I remember looking through that book and being so disgusted when coming to the "literature" section. I can't remember what books they included in the course but reading them was not required. You were supposed to reference the cinematografic version instead!!! What the heck!
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From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 17:42

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forgive my ignorance, but I have been out (this March) 11 years, so I'm not quite understanding what the 'CVC' means.(reply to this comment
From someone
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 18:34

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Agree/Disagree?)
I believe it is an acronym for "Christian Vocational College." Basically a set of correspondence school workbooks and cd-roms which along with a nickel might be enough to get you a fish sandwhich. As far as I know, the program is run by a fellow named Sergio Drumond (Tiago) who lives in Bangkok, Thailand. They give out high school diplomas and various certificates (word processing, accounting, child care, art, drama, etc.) which are probably worthless for the most part unless you are trying to get a job within the Family itself. From what I've heard the guy who runs the program has good intentions but not much should be expected from a college dropout who, by his own account (testimony), joined the Family while under the influence of hallucingenic drugs.

When I was growing up in the Family, we always kept correspondence school workbooks and homeschooling materials handy to show to the child protective services agencies in the U.S. when they made inquiries (which is to be expected when you apply for AFDC and similar programs while living in a white trash winnebago schoolbus held together by chewing gum and duct tape). We never even actually used the materials that much and I generally considered them equivalent to the base foundation makeup my mom would often apply to us boys before we went out to play to cover up the black eyes, bruises and other injuries from our typical evil stepfather (of course on bad days - involving bloody noses, broken teeth, cracked fat lips, fractured and swollen fingers from being hit with plunger handles, bloody wounds from errant belt buckles and wire coat hangers,etc - we weren't even allowed out the bus). (reply to this comment
From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 23:10

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Dude,
Your experiences sounds VERY similar to mine! Except that we had to live in a purple school bus which my dad converted into a trailer, held together with duct tape and chewing gum!

As for the ficticious diploma's the cog gives out? YUP, I've got one of theirs! Anyone interested in seeing a scan of it lemme know!

(reply to this comment
from exotik tom-boy
Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 19:46

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Add to that; you, Claire, and Marc, have ZERO credentials in the U.S., (and I use the U.S. as an example, being that you seem to think you are a certified source on the matter!) as far as educational standards go!

The Family may try to defend its lack of educational standards.........but guess what? The cog/family HAS no credentials when it comes to the matter of education! I challenge you to try to prover otherwise!

I am certified to teach high school (legally....nope, none of your 'home schooling' BS) in the U.S., and I have!
So, I speak from my own hard earned education; which I obtained all on my own; NOTHING that the cog/family did, helped me to obtain ANY sort of education!





(reply to this comment)
from Lauren
Friday, January 24, 2003 - 23:14

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Oh don't they look so sweet and cuddly? That picture must be a wonderful "testimony". How would anyone believe that such a "sweet and loving" couple could have committed such attrocities. It's frightening! Marc has got to be one of the biggest scumbag abusers still in the Family. And Claire was no saint either from what I hear. The Family could not have picked a more appropriate pair to represent them for what they really are.

The statistics they quote are totally skewed. Supposing that 88% of the population graduates from highschool (according to their statistics) what we should be looking at is not the overall percentage that ends up going to college (which according to their statistics is 33%) but what percentage of those that are in our parents' particular status/income bracket are going to college.

Most of us had parents that were coming from middle to upper-middle class backgrounds (with a few in the lower middle to poor range and a few in the very rich range). Out of the middle class of America, how many are going to college? I'll bet it's a whole lot more than the 33% figure they are throwing around.

But here is the real travesty -- according to their statistics 88% of Americans graduate from highschool. How many children in the Family (especially those who were born prior to 1980) were privileged to that level of education? Forget college -- we're talking basic junior high stuff here.

Sure, the "education" some (emphasis on some) people got in the Family that consisted of skills (ie, languages, vocational skills, etc) was helpful to them. But except in very rare cases, it's not the same as having gotten a solid basic education under your belt. If you haven't got reading comprehension and basic math skills, unless you've got more determination than a powerhouse, you are stuck.

Some Family members like to remind us that there are many people in "the system" that hate school and choose to quit. For those naysayers, let me remind you of the key word in that sentence, "choose". Choice. We had no choice. Granted, it's possible that not all of us would've chosen college -- but then, we were never given that opportunity, so accept the fact that you made a mistake.

If you hadn't been so near-sighted with the "Jesus is coming back any day" mentality, if you'd had just enough foresight to realize that your prodgeny would grow into middle age would it have made any difference to you? Would you have cared enough to give us the basics to get us through life a little easier? Or would you have still stuck us in the nursery to take care of your many children while you were skirting your true responsibilities? My God, if we were in school who would've cleaned the house, taken care of the kids and cooked the meals? The Family as a group not only leached off of society, it leached off of its offspring too.
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From neez
Saturday, January 25, 2003, 19:06

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They look like frickin weirdos to me..

That girl sure has the 'scared rabbit in headlights' look(hint: ignore the mouth) going.. (reply to this comment
from Righteous Rage
Friday, January 24, 2003 - 21:08

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Marc needs to have a millstone tied around his neck, and be pushed off a bridge! He is a child abuser.

"What would Jesus do?"
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From Also Enraged
Friday, January 24, 2003, 21:14

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And I want to know about Claire, do you feel any guilt at all for what you did to me? Do you ever feel even a bit sorry? Do you teach the definitive Family course on how to lie?(reply to this comment
From exotik tom-boy
Saturday, January 25, 2003, 19:32

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Of course, she writes the book on how to lie! Who else would lie on national T.V.? Claire B. is an abusive bitch!(reply to this comment
From Bob
Saturday, January 25, 2003, 23:11

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I lived with Claire Borowick when I was 12. I recall her educational program quite well. I spent all my time there slaving away scrubbing toilets, washing windows, sorting out the rotten provisioned produce, taking out the trash, making her tea and disgusting wheatgerm shakes, rubbing her smelly feet and trying to avoid demerits and being put on the sexual "sharing" schedule. I wasn't allowed to study or read anything except family publications.

I don't understand why Claire would be a Family spokesperson considering her history of child abuse. Cannot they not find anyone who has a relatively clean record? (reply to this comment
From Pablo
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 06:03

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Also, Claire used to brag that Cacho (her husband at the time) was a dangerous and vicious gangster and that the police warned her to stay away from him because they didn't believe a young naive Canadian exhange student could reform him. The reality is that he was an incompetent pimp and petty thief who was hiding in the Family because he couldn't survive in the real world. In 1990, I saw Cacho on the same flight I was on going from Seattle to Atlanta. He didn't recognize me at first despite having played a key role in destroying part of my childhood. I tipped a flight attendant $100 to bump him into the half empty first class section and and serve him a special extra-large meal with plenty of free drinks and desserts laced with phenolphthalein (a potent laxative). She was happy to assist considering she had already pegged him as an obnoxious asshole after he screamed and yelled about how he deserved priority boarding. Don't ask me what I was doing with laxatives in my backpack but in those days I believed in being prepared for anything and my carry-on (flee bag) had everything from iodine tablets to krugerands. I wish I could have done more but it was definitely worth it to see the look of agony and embarassment on his face. (reply to this comment
From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 23:40

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Cacho, a DEFINITE WEIRDO and PERV!
I also remember Cacho's stories of his run-in's with the Argentine cops! And I also recall Cacho bragging about the fact that the family helped him to escape jail time! Why a 'Christian, educated chick' such as Claire Borowick, who is a self-proclaimed authority on TF's educational values and 'credentials' would be proud to have been caught up with a hoodlum such as the likes of Cacho, is besides me?!!!!!!!! Then again, you know how those whoring FF'ers chose their mates!


As for being prepared for anything (flee bag)? That shit doesn't surprise me, being that TF always taught their kids to run from the law and to elude authorities; not to mention the whole 'surviving in the wilderness' bullcrap, with their lame-ass, badly illustrated (as in art), 'Survival Sam' cartoons! TF's habits of storing food and water for 'The End Time' are like the paranoid traits the David Koresh (as in Waco, TX) clan exhibited! (reply to this comment
From Mika
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 13:17

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Too bad you weren't flying on one of the flights I work. Just think of all the fun we could have had with this "Cacho" ....ah, the possibilities are endless.(reply to this comment
From Mika
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 13:23

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On a different note, but speaking of having Family members on your flights, I've had the "privilege" of having several on my flights. I work the route from Narita (Japan)to Houston. Well, it's the only logical flight for people living at the HCS in Japan to use when coming to the US. I've had the pleasure of seeing Jerry Paladino, as well as several others. Fortunately, they have all been good to me in the past, so I've been real nice as well. (reply to this comment
From wonder if I know you Pablo
Tuesday, January 28, 2003, 08:29

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Cacho was also a paedophile who found paradise in TF. Why was he always a high leader? Cacho raped me as a child with his wife's help.(reply to this comment
From Another child abused by C.B.
Saturday, January 25, 2003, 23:28

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I wonder if i know you, Bob.(reply to this comment
from Elsie
Friday, January 24, 2003 - 20:49

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OK, I want to know what SG they talked to who "entered on the same footing as any other student."

Don't they also realize that while it might sound impressive to them to list 20 "ministries," it was quite unacceptable for our lives to be subjected to the coin toss if which, if any, of these we'd learn and how much, and when they'd cut us off because we were somehow displeasing them? This happened to me more than once.

Oh boy am I glad my life is not decided by some pervy academic who eggs TF on and makes ingratiating quips that they then use as if it were evidence that cause he's a wierdo people should stay barefoot and uneducated in the kitchen!

And what's with the guy going insane because he was a student?? People can go insane doing anything; a genetic predisposition increases your chances (how many of us inherited that?) and being tortured and raped as a child by your caretakers really doesn't help.

And haven't they caught on that the Traumatic Testimonies were lamers and obviously didn't do their job keeping us in anyway?! In my case, what I read in them was not a bit worse than my life in. In fact, it sounded preferable. And the reality is, there's great stuff out here, not just bad! I think our parents just didn't have the resourcefulness and drive of some of us or the persistence to better themselves!

Also, they forgot to add that "if it is stressful to be an overachieving student, it is no help if your parents aren't there for you, but that is good because it will look bad for those trying to make it out there -- oh, and we don't really care about their well-being anyway!"

Bottom line, if the lawyers they turned out are so happy with their TF background, how come TF is on its way to getting its pants sued off?
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from Startled
Friday, January 24, 2003 - 20:31

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Behold the face of child abuse.
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from Uhh
Friday, January 24, 2003 - 20:12

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Is the "power of prayer invested on behalf of those moving on" before or after they pray for the Lord to take us out of the way if necessary before we get any more strong delusion?
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from knows marc
Friday, January 24, 2003 - 14:59

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Marc is a scumbag. I used to know him in the Philippines. He used to beat his step-kids until they were black and blue blubbering messes with a wire coat hanger all the time. I used to cry and freak out over the way he continually beat his one daughter Shalom so severely. The things I would love to do to him if I ever see him.
(reply to this comment)

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