Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article

from Shaka Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 00:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Ohhhhh shit. I so much liked being called a blood dripping monster. Now I'm only posessed by one. Damn, that lowers my ego. Zerby, you fuckin' bitch! Why'd you change your story like that? I was so looking forward to crawling out of the sewers to tear apart you and your entire organization! Oh well, life goes on. Sigh (reply to this comment)

from xhrisl Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Ohh no...there's just enough Godsmack in there to make it seem like a new revalation for the poor dupes; couple that with enough lets blame it on the victims and this revalation is sure to be winner with the true 200%er family members (all thirty of them). As Maria and Peter rack their brains "if only we can only figure out a way to have the dear precious few members who are left tithe 90% and live off of 10% why we just might make enough to see us thru our golden years...." (reply to this comment)

from Joel W. Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:58

from Charlize Obtherion Monday, December 01, 2003 - 21:31 (Agree/Disagree?) If there werent about a hundred thousand reasons to leave, I'm glad I left and can have good friends who are gay alongside whom I can live in equality, respect and non-discrimination. If I got rid of all those I have, my life would be vastly poorer. The hate speech in this GN is disgusting. (reply to this comment)

from MARIA SUCKS Monday, December 01, 2003 - 20:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Doesn't she get that she herself is shouting from the rooftops, more than any Vandari, her pathology and her twisted cruelty? (reply to this comment)

from Jules Monday, December 01, 2003 - 19:53 (Agree/Disagree?) One thing I forgot to add is that Maria is quite concerned that we misinterpreted the Vandari document. 19. ... Some of our young people out of the Family have the impression that we call them the Vandari. That is not the case. As you know, if you read the Letter carefully (see "Pray, Obey and Prepare," ML #3420, GN 1007), the Vandari are spiritual beings, demons that look for any way possible to cause trouble. In some cases our young people outside the Family who have allowed themselves to become very bitter and hateful are manipulated or influenced by the Vandari ... So she doesn't think we physically are the blood drippping demons of the Vandari, only that we are possessed and manipulated by the blood dripping demons of the Vandari. Thanks Maria. That really cleared that up. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Here's what I don't get: "some of OUR young people"? We're not YOUR young people Zerby, piss off!(reply to this comment)

From Snidometer Bellowing Monday, December 01, 2003, 20:02 (Agree/Disagree?) And they put up with that s***? Being talked down to like that: "As you know, if *you* read the Letter carefully (see "Pray, Obey and Prepare," ML #3420, GN 1007)" like thed didn't give her their lives and their children already and deserve for her to treat them better.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 15:27 (Agree/Disagree?) they always do that shit. Come out with some stupid 500 page revelation and when it doesn't work out right. They come back and rearrange and reword and pretty much contradict everything they were preaching a week ago.... FREAKS(reply to this comment)

from Albatross Monday, December 01, 2003 - 18:37 (Agree/Disagree?) A reaction ZERBY: 9. It's not easy for our young people who've left the Family to be out on their own, surrounded by so much negative influence and bitterness, especially now that our enemies have launched an all-out attack to pull more of our young people over to their side--barraging them with negative input, and in some cases even offering financial payment to speak against us. Albatross: I’ve been in the thick of the struggle with TF. Not only has there been no money offered, but the only so-called “enemies” working on this effort are the young people themselves. ZERBY: 13. I'm not saying that there's no element of truth in what those who have left and are bitter say. Albatross: But she sure is acting like it. ZERBY: We have apologized many times for the mistakes that we made as leadership in the Family, when we didn't put in place good safeguards and rules or emphasize more of a balance to some of the extremes that people tended to. Albatross: But no apologies for the doctrines and letters that actually advocates these abuses, nor for the directives to their underlings to actually carry out the abuse ZERBY: And especially once people become bitter, their recollection of the past becomes very different and is sometimes distorted. Albatross: How much more so a person who is trying to escape responsibility either personally or legally. ZERBY: I'm sure that many of the poor children in India or Africa wish they had been born into rich families in the U.S. or the western world. I'm sure that those born to military parents who have to travel and live in places they don't like wish that they had been born to some more settled and stable profession. Albatross: I’ve searched this site and I’ve found very little in the area of complaints about the experience of being raised overseas. Most had to do with things like abuse, emotional, physical, sexual, neglect, educational, etc. Once again they ignore the real issues and make up something to explain away the anger directed towards them. ZERBY: The Vandari, for one, are constantly looking for any way to hinder and stop our work for the Lord Albatross: I’m glad to see that they are still worried about Vandari, because otherwise…. Well, let’s just say that OBTHERION, does not fit on a personalized license plate in the state of California. ZERBY: 21. Something that's very important to remember in your interactions with former members, especially if they're bitter, is that in order to be able to answer them wisely and help them pull through to have happy, productive lives, you must keep your faith strong. Albatross: Here is the point implicit in that paragraph: That those who are “bitter” or have problems with things that were done to them in TF, are somehow having unhappy, and unproductive lives. I know that this is far from the case with me. It was only when I was having a productive, happy life, with a good career that I had the time or the energy to press TF. ZERBY: 24. Again, I'm not saying that there was never a mistake made or something that shouldn't have happened. Mistakes did happen. Some of the mistakes were very serious and hurtful, like the ones involving sexually inappropriate behavior or harsh discipline--both of which should never have happened. Albatross: Whoever commits may these, sexual inappropriate acts, as she so cutely refers to these crimes, is never merely mistaken. Mistakes suggest on some level, lack of deliberate intent. ZERBY: Sometimes they do happen–-everywhere in the world, in every circle of society, not just in the Family. And a lesson that everyone on Earth has to learn at some point in their life is: When you're wronged in some way, when a mistake happens that affects you‚ there are ways to get over it. Albatross: Two things: One, while bad things and crimes happen in every society, most have ways of seeking redress and punishing the perpetrators. Ours did not. So if they want to build a society modeled after Afghanistan where woman and children have little or no sexual rights, or rights to education, then they should come out and acknowledges that sordid reality. Two: She says that there are ways to get over a wrong. She conveniently ignores a very common way that we have been trying for quite some time now, which is to go after those who actually committed or allowed the wrongs, and seek answers, redress and justice. ZERBY: 28. This mentality that some of our former members have taken on of "being wronged" because they weren't given the choice of what lifestyle they were raised in causes them extreme heartache. Albatross: I’m sure I’ll be corrected if this is not the overriding sentiment of most of you, but my problem with TF has never been that I did not get a chance to choose the “lifestyle” I was born into. It’s that after I was born, that lifestyle turned into an abuseive, dangerous and neglectful one, in which those in a position to prevent that from happening, did nothing of the sort, but rather participated in it. I would have been fine born into a real missionary family (even a dirt poor one) that moved all the time, so long as part of our credo did not allow me to be sexually abused and educationally neglected. ZERBY: 29. Going back to what I said earlier, I know that mistakes were made‚ and I'm not discounting those or trying to gloss over them. Dad, Peter, and I have apologized for the things that were our responsibility as the leadership of the Family. Albatross: Then we are at an impasse. I have yet to see a real substantive comprehensive look at the issues of concern for the abuse and neglected victims nor an apology from anyone in top Family leadership. So while they chant this mantra, “we’ve apologized” I’ve yet to see it. And believe me, I’ve looked. ZERBY: (Jesus) 32. At the same time, I ask you not to beat yourself up for any lacks, and especially don't blame yourself for your grown children's problems today. Your children have to make their own choices in life, and if they choose to be bitter, you can and should try to help them, but in order to get over it, they must make a conscious personal decision to do so. Albatross: So let me see, if you abused or allowed your children to be abused, and they now have problems as a result, you should not beat yourself up? And they can get over it by accepting a halfhearted apology acknowledging some general mistakes? Well…now I know what it feels like to talk to a wall. Daniel (reply to this comment)

From From a happy systemite Thursday, December 04, 2003, 08:10 (Agree/Disagree?) I totally agree with you! It’s so ridiculous to say that all of our accusations and anger stem from not wanting to have been raised in TF. That is such a load of bull, and the only reason why she has taken that as our “main gripe” is because that is the one thing that she knows everyone will be able to agree with her that she is not to blame for. It is so far from the truth that being raised in TF is what we are upset about. It’s so infuriating the way she just passes us off by that twisting of the issue!! That has never been what any of this is about--and she knows it, I’m sure--but she uses it because it’s the one thing that makes her look good and us look bad to her followers. What’s also so infuriating about it, is that in some cases this letter will be the first impression for our parents and siblings of what our stories are. Basically she is “presenting” “our” side of the story to TF in a completely distorted and manipulated way, and most of TF members will never know what the real issues are; they will simply take what she says, believe that that is the truth about what we have to say, and then never want to hear what we have to say because we “are bitter about the life we were born in.” I also agree with you and take great offence to her constant insinuation that it’s just because we are “so unhappy in the System” that we now want to blame someone for our unhappiness. She just harps on it over and over: “…Others are unhappy and struggling.” “…so that they can move on with their life and find something that will make them happy.”” ”….some are just genuinely unhappy and need help.” “…help them pull through to have happy, productive lives.” “…you're not responsible for their bitterness and unhappiness.” “…on the one hand you want them to be happy and content and productive and do something good with their lives, you will forever be sad for the blessings and true happiness and fulfillment that they're missing out on by reason of their taking the road of lesser blessings.” “…some nebulous unhappiness that they have.” “…life in the System is very difficult--especially for those who have abandoned their faith.” OMG! How insane! I am SOOOO much happier now than I ever was in TF, and from what I have read on this site, so is everyone else!!! It’s like she wants to make sure that everyone in TF is very aware of her point that “IF YOU LEAVE THE FAMILY, YOU WILL BE SO EXTREMELY UNHAPPY, THAT YOU WILL EVENTUALLY DISINTEGRATE TO DELUSION!” See, the thing is, TF members are completely unaware of how well most of us are doing out here in normal life. I know I definitely was when I was in, because the only thing we heard about the other SGs that left were the stories of suicide, drug problems, and definitely if anyone was stripping. (Like that’s the worst thing in the world. Duh! God, how many times I was made to “strip” for drooling old farts while I was in TF! But, Heaven forbid that anyone would do it for MONEY! Oh no!) We also would hear about the “accusations” you (us!) were “throwing”, but never what the accusations were. Now I know, not only my life, but all of yours too, ARE happy, productive, fulfilled, content, blessed, and on and on!! Just because we are upset about abuse that we suffered at the hands of TF does not take away from any of that. But they will never get that, will they? I also just LOVE these gems here: (we are upset because…) “…they were brought up in such a trusting environment that they weren't prepared for the deceitfulness, selfishness, and lack of trust in the System.” “…a lot of people, especially young people, who leave the Family and go to the System, find it quite a shock and quite difficult. They start having to face pressures they never had before, deal with people who are not yielded to Me, get lied to, cheated, and stomped on.” Hahahahahahaha! Like we never knew people in TF like that?! Hahahahaha! Oh no, I was NEVER “stomped on” in TF! Or lied to! Or cheated by! And I NEVER met anyone who was selfish…! Hahahahahaha! Let me tell you, Maria, I WAS prepared to face THOSE type of pressures! In fact, trusting people again is one of the hardest things I’ve had to do since leaving TF. The pressures that we weren’t prepared to face were more like our LACK OF FUCKING EDUCATION!! Or our LACK OF FUCKING MARKETABLE SKILLS! Okay? Did you get that? Oh, that’s right…you never, ever fucking will!! (reply to this comment)

from boiling Monday, December 01, 2003 - 16:04 (Agree/Disagree?) OK, I just have one question. Please tell me *what* a girl has to do to get rid of the "heritage as children of David"?!?!?! Maybe the creative minds among us can come up with our Vandari ceremony to symbolize the casting off and rejection of the supposed heritage of a pedophile torturer con man who robbed us of all that is most precious an on whose memory we spit and on whose grave we would do worse if it existed. This is like telling a 9-11 survivor they have a "heritage as children of Osama." I wonder if there is anything at all that TF would consider validly cutting ties to that supposed heritage, like an annulment? Hey Zerby, is blaspheming against the holy ghost effective for that? In this day and age, we are not supposed to be condemned at or by birth. The constitution does not allow you to be punished because of who your parents are. How unfair especially ones like us who only suffered at their hands, it's not like we were profiting because of their actions! There is no more blood taint. (reply to this comment)

From Sir Rantalot Friday, December 05, 2003, 11:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Try a banishing ritual: http://www.livingwithmagick.com/LBRP.html :) LOL!(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, December 01, 2003, 16:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Repeat after me, "God is dead, he died in the 19th Century" Cogitate on this until it sinks in...(reply to this comment)

from Albatross Monday, December 01, 2003 - 13:42 (Agree/Disagree?) As some of you may know, there are those of us who have gone to great pains,(despite our disinclination to do so), to present to TF leadership exactly what some of the major concerns and issues are for young people who have left TF. An example of one such interaction took place on the 5th of January of 2003, when I spent nearly 3 hours on the phone with my father Ado, who was (and may still be) a CO for North America with a specific portfolio of of working with TF's young people. That CO position would put many of these issues under his purview. We discussed the steps TF may take to begin to listen to and address these concerns. We discussed the need for objective therapists, perhaps paid for in part by TF. We discussed the need for a process to investigate and address claims of abuse against Family members. I made it clear that if we addressed claims of abuse it would by necessity include any abuse claims against Zerby and Peter and other top Family leadership. We covered many of the issuse that are explored on this site on a daily basis. It was clear that working on these issues absent the involvment of lawyers for either side would be a positive first step. But I also made it clear that if that was not possible, we are very much prepared to seek whatever legal redress may be available. Our conversation ended with the understanding that he would take parts of our conversation and discuss these issues with those in positions to make real decisions on them. Eleven months later, I have not hear back. I do see that in the summer however, Zerby and Peter come out with this GN telling TF and our parents that they have done all they can but that we are just bitter, intractable and that there is nothing that can be done. There are others who have made similar efforts to mine to present our issues, some in the form of demands, but others presented in good faith and in the spirit of honest rapprochement. It is not an exageration to say that we have been rebuffed everytime. This may be a textbook case of how a group may destroy any residual good will that their members have for them. If TF's sociologists fail to see the bigger picture here, that this is more than just a few disgruntled ex-members griping about some some percieved slight, I suggest that perhaps they are far too clossly joind at the hip with Tf to be of any real professional value, and instead should present themselves for what they appear to be, that being professional mouthpieces for this Cult, and as shade to shield TF from the rightfull scrutiny, investigation, and questions over their past deeds. I think it's time to once again take this GN back to our parents. Time perhaps to show them highlighted passages and ask them to articulate their feelings and opinions on those passages as they relate to us their children. Seldom has the word "demonize" been more applicable. That is exactly what TF leadership is trying to do to us. It's time to make our parents answer and stand up for their beliefs or stand up for us. If you are on MO or any other website then these GN's are talking about you. I asked my father directly if he considered me an enemy. His answer then was "no". Who then was he talking about when he refered to the "enemies" who were spreading these quote "lies" about TF and working to bring Tf to answer and justice? Am I to believe my father does not consider me an enemy? I suppose he must assume that all his neglect during my upbringing produced an idiot as well. If Zerby and Peter want a Gideon's band.....let's help them in their mission. Let's ask those we love to explain their unquestioning support of this Cult's assault on their own flesh and blood, and if they can't justify it, we must question their continued membership in TF. Daniel (Albatross) (reply to this comment)

From jackie Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 20:34 (Agree/Disagree?) TOTALLY AGREE! THE FAMILY OR THEIR "LEADERS" ONLY ANSWER WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS FAVORABLE TOWRDS THEM AND ONLY WHEN THEY THINK THE PERSON IS "YIELDED" ENOUGH TO SWALLOW ALL THEIR "BULL----"!!! I WROTE A LETTER TO ONE OF THE "LEADERS" RECENTLY CONCERNING A VERY DELICATE SITUATION INVOLVING SOME OF MY FAMILY AND I GOT A STUPID REPLY ABOUT LOVE AND JESUS AND ALL THE REST. HOWEVER WHEN I WROTE BACK AGAIN ASKING FOR SOME REAL ANSWERS AND NOT ALL THAT CRAP I GOT NO ANSWER THAT WAS ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO! THE ISSUE I WROTE ABOUT WAS ABOUT CHILDREN AND THEIR WELFARE HOWEVER I WAS IGNORED. THERE IS A LOT OF "LOVE" IN TF BUT THEY DONT GIVE A DAMM ABOUT THEIR OWN CHILDREN ( I AM TALKING ABOUT LITTLE CHILDREN THE OLDEST IS 12 YEARS OLD)!! AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THEY CAN STUFF THEIR VANDARI UP THEIRS!!!(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, December 01, 2003, 21:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Daniel, maybe the reason your pop doesn't call you an enemy is because he doesn't consider you a threat. Maybe you should try harder. ;) Wanna use my firm letterhead in your next strongly-worded letter?(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, December 01, 2003, 21:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Daniel, maybe the reason your pop doesn't call you an enemy is because he doesn't consider you a threat. Maybe you should try harder. ;) Wanna us my firm letterhead in your next strongly-worded letter?(reply to this comment)

From Just to Point Out Monday, December 01, 2003, 14:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Demands can be totally in good faith and honest. Your language did not seem to allow for this in juxtaposing demands to "good faith" and "spirit of honest rapprochment." Cheers. Hey, anyone have any prophecies about what a Spirit of Rapprochement looks like? j/k(reply to this comment)

From Albatross Monday, December 01, 2003, 14:58 (Agree/Disagree?) yeah...In interest of time I left off clarifying. I was often the one making demands...so I would of course say that they were honest and in good faith. It's good to have friends like you to clarify things.(reply to this comment)

from EyesWideShut Monday, December 01, 2003 - 10:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Yay! We have a new gay mascot. Fun, fun, fun! So whose imagination thought this one up? Not Tamar, I know that much. Boris Vallejo? Rowena Morill? Someone make sure to post the picture when it comes out so we can see what she copied. Then again, they may stop using those books now that we're aware of the fraud. (reply to this comment)

from Nancy Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for writing that Jules. It's really helpful to see what is going on in these deluded cult members' minds. My parents did not ever protect me or my siblings. In fact, they were just as abusive as the next person in the commune. So, I never really felt for them or thought I could change their minds. I did, however, always feel for my siblings. I guess it is helpful, though, that some people were close to their parents, were abused by other people in the commune and felt they could approach their parents. Every new story, every conversation, every letter appears to have made a difference. The truth in the end will prevail over Karen Zerby and her evil abusive, sexual cult. What is wonderful is that so many of us are successful in the areas we set our minds to. I was in the home of a friend's brother a few months ago. Both he and his sibling were in the Family growing up. I was so happily surprised at how well they lived, how successful he and his wife were, how well-adjusted the children were, how happy and free from oppression they were. It was tear-jerking in a good way. The evil of the Family was not spoken about in front of his children or in the home. He protected them from all that wickedness. He was a beacon of hope for those of us still struggling with our own pain and fear and efforts to shield our own children from all the evil we knew. I think we should have a holiday to celebrate people like my friend's brother, all the survivors out there, all of us out there who are parents now and doing a better job than our parents ever did, all the successful military men and women, all the computer engineers, all the nurses, police officers, graphic designers, business owners, college students, everyone out there like us who is out, healthy, surviving and doing a damn fine job of it. We should drink Vandari wine and toast to our health and the declining health of that witch, Karen Zerby. I'll drink to that. We should remember on that day all of us who lost their battle against that cult. We could have a poll and have people suggest days and names for the holiday and traditions we should start on that day. What great fun?! I bet we could even get that damn cult to fast and pray on that day if we made a big enough deal of it. We should light a candle for Cherish and the sibling or friend of anyone else here who has lost someone. We should give each other gifts for making it this far on our own. Hell! We deserve it! Remember all those years of Christmas and birthdays we got nothing? Hey Jules and Tim and Joe, what do you want me to send ya for being damn fine Vandari? I'm serious! So many of us feel isolated from time to time. I think it's important for those out there by themselves to feel like they are not alone, there is not something wrong with them. They are strong and should be proud of it. I recently attended a great lecture given by a Harvard educated professor of religion. His name is Dr. Charles Kimball. His new book is called "When Religion Becomes Evil." In it, he writes about the five tenants which characterize religion gone wrong, specifically when it becomes dangerous, violent and destructive. He was mainly focused on Islamic terrorism, but his five tenants apply to all types of cults, including "Christian" ones. The first tenant is absolute truth claims. The second is blind faith and abdicating ones own freedom of choice to a charismatic leader. Next is the belief in an end time. I haven't read the book yet, but it is hauntingly familiar to the Family. It gave me chills to think that the Family is so similar and going down the same path as terrorist religious groups. If you have a chance, pick up his book. It's pretty short. I asked him after the lecture if he'd heard of the COG. He said yes. Anyway, sorry to be all over the place with this post. I wish I had more time today to write more coherently, but I just wanted to comment on this great article and write down some of my first thoughts. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Wednesday, December 17, 2003, 13:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh please, the one thing I have no desire for is a new set of traditions, days and times to observe! Suit yourselves.(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 14:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Why, Nancy, that's brilliant!! I propose that the holiday be celebrated on Berg's "deathday"! What better time to celebrate our new lives than the day of the demise of the man who tried to steal them forever?(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 15:14 (Agree/Disagree?) That could be a good idea, but then, in a way, we'd still be celebrating Berg. What does everyone think? Maybe it'd be better to celebrate it on the birthday of someone who didn't survive (or the deathday of said person). Ben who committed suicide springs to mind, but there are obviously others. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 19:35 (Agree/Disagree?) I think this is an interesting idea. Personally I am a bit put off of the idea of any sort of "official" day of rememberance (and partying) but on the other hand our freedom definitely deserves recognition. I kind of agree with Joe on the Berg death-day, it's a good idea, but for me personally, after all those feasts/fasts it would be a little too weird and I don't want to remember him at all. Does anyone know who the first SG to leave the Family was? (Was it Billy?) What about celebrating on the day that this first person left the group? (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 17:39 (Agree/Disagree?) I think that would be sooooo fitting! It would also make those criminals think about the death of one they are responsible for. I think it should be a huge celebration, though, like Madi Gra. (That doesn't look spelled right! But, I'm running on two hours sleep here.) We could have beads and trinkets, all manner of things pagan! There could be traditional toasts and candle lighting and gift giving. The bigger, the better!!! I could take a little trip down to Savannah, or I'm going to New Orleans at Christmas, and get some traditional voodoo stuff for with to celebrate. Does anyone know any? We could sit two dolls at the head of the dinner table and everyone go around and tell a story and throw darts at the dolls, Zerby and Kelly, of course! If anyone makes a good shot, then everyone drinks to their demise!!! Almost like a pinata with knives!!! I am really enjoying this. I think it should be coordinated at a certain time, like the Guiness toast. The point is to make such a big deal that the Family menions have to lock themselves up and pray like bandits for the day. Get them off the streets and out of the studio making these idiot viddies would be good for everyone, even if for one day. We should take one of their good peddling days.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 18:02 (Agree/Disagree?) I took one of their good Christmas peddling days once by running away to live in the wilderness. They were pretty torqued at me too. Everyone was all dolled up to proselytize and I grabbed my cached goods out of the garage and booked it to the hills. Unfortunately I was only 12 and I forgot my pocket knife so the whole endeavor ended a few hours later. Still, I am glad I had the gall to go for it.(reply to this comment)

From Tim R Monday, December 01, 2003, 19:59 (Agree/Disagree?) A vial of blood would be nice, my cloak's getting dry ;-)(reply to this comment)

From Albatross Monday, December 01, 2003, 20:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Come now Tim. Don't shortchange yourself. No way is a vial enough to wash you in the blood of the man.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, December 01, 2003, 10:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh, this is too good! I can picture it now: Small dinner party, good wine, toasts all around, one for Vandari, one for Obtherion, one for Apothion. Sorry if I get the spelling wrong. I've got to study up on these "demons" that have got the culties writhing and screeching like the little girls from the Salem witch trials. They're grown adults acting like Abigail Williams and her little friends. Remember that scene from the Crucible? Wynona Ryder is having a fit and whipping all her little girl friends into a frenzy. She screeches, "Her spirit vexesssssssssssss and pricks me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhh!!!!" It's almost comical! What was it that put an end to the Salem witch trials? Sounds like a good name for this holiday.(reply to this comment)

from I'm an apostate? Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:28 (Agree/Disagree?) You know, it's letters like these that turn us into "vindictive" ex-members. (reply to this comment)

from Wow Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm reading the full document on this. There's some really good news...we have a new demon! Yay! And he's homosexual! Double Yay! I guess him and the Vandari must be getting it on big time. Oh, and what's more, he's like a big-time guy, one of the "originals" of Lucifer's clan. Since TF is so huge and important in the scheme of things, the Devil has to send out his best guys on them.... Here is our new demon's profile: 182. On the subject of praying for our young people, the Lord also revealed another evil spiritual entity who fights our young people who have chosen not to be in the Family. Thank the Lord for revealing this so that we can pray against him specifically! Following is an excerpt of a letter I received from one of you. 183. (Excerpt of letter from a Family mother:) I wanted to tell you about the name of a demon that I received while praying for my son who lives with us, but is not a part of the Family. I received the name Obtherion [pronounced Ob-ther-on], related to Apotheon. This was the Lord's answer to my prayer for us to know exactly who is fighting him. When I later checked the meaning of the prefixes and suffixes, I found that "ob" means "against," "theo" means God, as you know, and "ion" means "the act of." So this adds up to a spirit working directly against God, against love and faith. I thought this might be relevant to other young people who are so closed off to the Lord's Spirit--this cold and relentless attitude of disbelief that seems to come over them. 184. (Mama:) We asked the Lord to reveal more about this demon, as having this demon exposed and being able to fight him through prayer seems to be an important piece of the puzzle in knowing how to help our young people. 185. (Jesus speaking:) I'm going to give you a picture of Obtherion. Don't be surprised by his appearance, for he is one of the masters of disguised intentions. His spirit is a seducing one--of trickery, persistent flattery, and enticement. He is of the same nature as Obstacon--a sly, deceptive demon in appearance. His goal is to seduce and beguile until he has My children in the state and position he desires: that of an active and unrelenting apostate! 186. (Vision:) I'm seeing the form of a man appear, with a wispy, almost delicate frame. He looks very young, and has short blond hair. His face has a very definitive line down the middle of it–-half of his face appears to be painted white, and the other half is painted blue. Then around his neck is this tight choker, a double band of white beads. For lack of a better description, he appears to be very "artsy" in spirit. But it's not an uplifting or creative sort of artsiness, but one that's sort of revolting. He's holding this white handkerchief in his hand--dangling it in front of me. 187. Now his features are changing to reveal more of his wicked, evil spirit. He's clearly homosexual. And he's not the sort of friendly or subdued type of homosexual, but the type who's very blatant about it, very evil and rebellious, one who manifests a defiant and in-your–face form of rebellion against godliness and God Himself. 188. He has a wicked smirk on his face. Now he appears to be wrapping this white handkerchief he was holding around someone's eyes--effectively blindfolding them, and he's writhing and prancing around them in wicked glee! We rebuke you, Obtherion, through the power of the keys! (End of vision.) 189. (Jesus speaking:) Now you have seen this one who has attracted, cajoled, and sweet-talked My children who have allowed him entrance through their pride and rebellion. He is a master of charm, coaxing and baiting My unwary children until he has ensnared them, blindfolded them in spirit, and sucked them into the same blatant rebellion against Me. That's his wicked goal--to turn those who have left the fold utterly and completely against Me! Strong pride gives him entrance‚ and from there he does his damage through flattery of that same pride that caused My children to stray in the first place. 190. This one has been around many ages. Lucifer was the original apostate, and Obtherion followed fast on his heels, as one of the initial legions of angels who fell with Lucifer. He, like Lucifer, fell due to choosing rebellion and defiance of Me. Pride was his downfall, as was Lucifer's. And he, like his master, was one of the original miscreants and heretics--a recusant*--choosing self above Me, and refusing to obey My authority. (*recusant: somebody who refuses to obey authority) 191. Now he works in the underworld as one of Lucifer's--in open, disgusting defiance and disrespect of Me and all that is godly. His blatant homosexuality is indicative of his wicked rebellion, as he lures and beguiles the mind--through pride--into strong disbelief. He is the master of both illusion and delusion. It is when My children turn from Me and succumb to strong pride that Obtherion , the master of delusion, gains entrance. His goal?--To gather more and more into his wicked fold as apostates, deceived into rebellion against Me and My ways through the pride in their heart. 192. He is one you must actively and persistently rebuke through the power of the keys! You must be the strong defense and wall against him gaining entrance into the lives and hearts of your loved ones who have departed. Pray for your own, that their pride will be contained, and that they will not be open prey to Obtherion's lures and seduction. (End of message from Jesus.) (reply to this comment)

From Wondering Thursday, December 04, 2003, 15:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, so this demon is gay. Does this mean all the other demons are heterosexual? Is the Devil himself gay or straight? What are the proportions of straight/gay in the Spirit World? With all of the special Spirit Helpers TF has, are none of them gay? Only the baddies are gay, no goodies, to TF's thinking? Maybe if y'all weren't so homophobic in TF you could recruit yourself some good gay Spirit Helpers. If the Spirit World is anything like the Physical World (is that what it's called?) you're missing some good stuff by discriminating against non-straight people in your Spirit hiring. Or maybe you allow lesbian Spirit Helpers, as long as they follow your TF Charter and just mess around occasionally with other women, but don't form relationships or avoid sex with men (and the ensuing handy-dandy-homegrown free labor that results in the absence of birth control)?(reply to this comment)

From Wondering P.S. Thursday, December 04, 2003, 15:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I forgot to ask, since the Devil hates sex, does he ever allow demons to get any? Are only his straight demons restricted? Does the Devil just hate heterosexual sex? Does he like gay male sex a lot but gay female sex only slightly? Does he give them a sharing schedule and split it for those with herpes and limit it to an hour or whatever?(reply to this comment)

From Wondering P.P.S. Thursday, December 04, 2003, 15:20 (Agree/Disagree?) So there's Sex in Heaven and Pets in Heaven. Is there Sex in Hell, or do the gay demons have to go elsewhere to get it on? And are there Pets in hell? How about the really, really bad pets or pets of really unsaved people? Pets of Vandari SGs?(reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Friday, December 05, 2003, 04:35 (Agree/Disagree?) News Flash: Actually gay sex is now permissible within TF so long as you are pretending your partner is Jesus!(reply to this comment)

From And also......... Thursday, December 04, 2003, 17:28 (Agree/Disagree?) If the devil hates sex, does that mean that he hates everyone that still has sex? If so, then why does he send his evil Vandari demon to help those that are still having sex if he hates them so much? Does God love sex so much that he is willing to overlook other infractions and love people just for the fact that they are sexually active?(reply to this comment)

From cifer Thursday, December 04, 2003, 21:00 (Agree/Disagree?) The devil hates gay sex!! - i know......he told me. check out my web site on www.jewsforjesus.org.au. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, December 04, 2003, 20:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Deep thoughts by Jack Handy!(reply to this comment)

From exfamily.org Thursday, December 04, 2003, 08:56 (Agree/Disagree?) I read this the other day on the "exfamily.org" site, and I thought it was pretty funny! I guess the FGs are having a pretty good laugh at this one too! (To "Reporter": I hope it's alright with you to post this here. Thanks!) Posted by Reporter on December 02, 2003 at 09:29:32 Peter: So Tamar, you do know why you're here dont' you? Tamar: (looking at the floor, crying) Y-yes. Maria: Just when we were about to discredit the accusations of the SGs & call them the attacks inspired by some new demon we invented, YOU have to go & discredit the Family's entire fabulous Spirit World! Do you realize how serious this is?!? Tamar: Y-yes Ma'am. Peter: We go to all the work to dream up a new sodomite demon, Obtherion or whatever his name is, & say that he's dancing a gay jig & blindfolding the SGs & lying to them, & we going to add this Obtherion character to our Spirit World Hall of Fame & just as we're about to do that, you get caught tracing system artists & discredit our whole spirit world. This is serious! Maria: Now all the exmembers are laughing at us. Right now we could describe the most fantastic demon we've ever come up with & give him a name like Oplexahim, & do you think even ONE exmember would believe this demon was real? Even if we could prove Oplexahim was behind the little bushy knoll & responsible for assassinating Kennedy? Peter: No one would believe us! And it's your fault! Tamar: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Maria: Peter, did Oberithon actually assassinate Kennedy? Peter: No, that was Oplexahim. (reply to this comment)

From dave Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 10:23 (Agree/Disagree?) With a wide and growing variety of demons, action demon-figures, or whatever you want to call them... Ashraf, Oplexicon, Obtherion, Obstacon, Vandari (my favorite), to name a few "celebrity" demons; We almost need some sort of glossary or encyclopedia to keep up with each one and what they are known for, hierarchy, rank. LOL. (reply to this comment)

From Albatross Monday, December 01, 2003, 19:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Whoa! Vandari is not gay! (not that there's anything wrong with that) (reply to this comment)

From Tim R Monday, December 01, 2003, 20:39 (Agree/Disagree?) I think they got upset that we took the Vandari as a mascot, so they told their demonologistas to come up with something no one would put on a T-shirt. (Half blue face???) Maybe the MovingOn store could offer monogrammed white handkerchiefs instead? "Perfect for blindfolding your visiting relatives when they're trying to read the GN's!" (Also, someone needs to tell Alf that Mama says he's possessed by a gay demon.)(reply to this comment)

From Web Surfer Monday, December 01, 2003, 20:18 (Agree/Disagree?) It amazes me that a group of people who tell their men to pretend that they have "vaginas in the spirit" also manage to be homophobic. Speaking of gay, check out this link from FamilyYouth: http://www.kidzvids.com/nathan/video/LOL%204%20U.mpg When I prayed and asked Obtherion about this, he said that the dancers were "totally hot", but he didn't like the outfits or choreography, which were "sooo 80's". PS: Hey Anthony, next time you're tempted to get in an argument with them, watch this video and remember: This is who you're arguing with, LOL! (reply to this comment)

From xhrisl Friday, December 05, 2003, 05:19 (Agree/Disagree?) OMG, I laughed so hard that I was unable to utilize the hot pokers I was planing on gouging my eyes out with! I saved this file to show my siblings (who are out) over the X-mas Holiday, we'll be laughing till the tears roll down our cheeks.(reply to this comment)

From DarkAngel Thursday, December 04, 2003, 17:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes it seems that too much masturbation to Jesus might have this kind of effect on christian males.I'm not talking about the poor performers now but mainly the choreographers and video production leaders. How far can they push the madness and not be behind bars? Unless they are trying to reach the gay population? Or seeking protection from some gay judges or top gay leaders? What about the Gaytheorion devil ? Haven't prayed about it but it came to me in the spirit while writing this piece of literature . Vision " He has a small body ,very cute ,has both a vagina and a penis he can become anyone's fantasy and satisfy the wildest dream,also can satisfy any old Kings or Queer's dream.In the spirit in the spirit we can all be bound while he is free...." If this vision resemble anyone or any pictures ,I DarkAngel takes full responsibility as it would be totally coincidental.(reply to this comment)

From Conqueror of Uranus Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 11:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Looks like they've took some PR shots too..... http://kidzvids.com/nathan/bvmboys_pic.htm (reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 17:58 (Agree/Disagree?) omfg.. I'll bet they had fun doing that photo shoot. The 3rd from the left looks like he's about to cream himself. I really can't see how thats gonna help them save mankind. Unless of course they are targeting the 11-13yr old sexualy confused male market.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 18:15 (Agree/Disagree?) The thing is they didn't even get the marketing angle right. Half nude and sassy sells if your subjects are prepubescent boys. This (belch) photo (ralph) shoot (heave) is a bunch of creepy (dry heave) hairy (hurl) grown men. (Off to the bathroom to wretch some more)(reply to this comment)

From neez Thursday, December 04, 2003, 04:37 (Agree/Disagree?) If you're interested(you like watching this kinda stuff) http://www.kidzvids.com/nathan/video/The%20Truth.mpg Another 50mb of wasted bandwith. I wonder why they haven't linked these videos yet.. Maybe it's a behind the scenes look at their savaging the studio equipment photo series. Maybe it's just them finally reciting their coming out speaches.. who knows(reply to this comment)

From Noodle User Friday, December 05, 2003, 20:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Ultra-poor acting and bad film-quality aside, any production in which bloopers are noticeable in the first viewing has got to be a bad one. Here are a few I noticed (there may be more, but I couldn't bring myself to watch it a second time): - The intro says: "in a middle-class part of New York..." (or something to that effect) The next scene is what appears to be (judging by the cheap furniture and bare walls) the inside of a lower-class government project home. - The story is supposed to take place in the US. Perhaps the location scout should have checked to make sure there were no non-US electrical sockets at waist height behind the sofa. - The Family has such class! Drinking Merlot from shot glasses. My advice to Daniella: Ditch the loser! I can't believe these guys have nothing better to do in their free time!(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, December 04, 2003, 10:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Dear God, does the media piracy never end?!? That was a direct ripoff of a Saturday Night Live sketch starring Joe Montana. Watch Comedy Central long enough and I'm sure you'll catch it. Many of the lines were ripped off verbatim, and possible the whole script was too. Can these simpletons do anything but rip off and degrade what was written years ago? Once again this is the sad result of the isolated cult environment. One of these "media geniuses" was at Grandma's for Christmas. Late at night he watched hours of Comedy Central. Realizing he could plagiarize at will and none of the rubes back in the Fam would ever notice he started recording episodes of SNL for his "reference collection." After taking down this script and distributing it to the "actors" he was hailed as a comedic genius. The worst part is that if anyone knows he cribbed it they will just laud him even more for "cleansing" a systemite sketch. And what possible good does it do to filch the "Universal" intro? I think an email to multibillion dollar Hollywood corporation is in order. I hear their lawyers bill almost four figures an hour.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, December 04, 2003, 10:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Hell yeah! Someone needs to forward this to Universal's legal department. They have copyright/trademark lawyers that will eat the FCF for lunch! (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, December 04, 2003, 10:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Universal's licensing department was notified 10 minutes ago. :-) At the very least a strongly worded cease and desist order ought to fill their briefs.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Thursday, December 04, 2003, 12:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Attn: EXISTER! Get in the chat!!! (reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Thursday, December 04, 2003, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) ATTN: EXISTER!!!! Get in the chat!!! love CWL (reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 14:32 (Agree/Disagree?) If I didn't know the context, I'd interpret this photo as a gay pride statement. These guys aren't acting like a bunch of metrosexuals just dying to be the straight guy on Queer Eye, either. The BVM Boyz are the pop-fag answer to a punk-dyke act like Tribe 8. Like Exister said, some SERIOUSLY repressed homoeroticism going on here...(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 14:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Apparently this is the family's ill-conceived attempt at a boy band. WS Media Brainstorm Session: "OK people, Maria and Peter are running low on booze so they are demanding more income from our tools." "What is a media genre that has universal appeal, but is also detested by anyone with a shred of intellect?" "I've got it! Boy bands! Let's make it racy though, to give it an edge. Call up our most creative minds and have them get on it ASAP!" The result is at the link above. I am going to be sick now...(reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 14:17 (Agree/Disagree?) After watching the video and checking out their PR shot, I'd say these boyz should be the model for the Vandari gay demon. They come complete with white hankies (or is that underwear?) on their heads and prance about like fruit faeries at a drag show. Their PR photo is seriously homoerotic...I wouldn't be surprised to hear they're FFing the gay power establishment in DC and GB for political favors. (reply to this comment)

From Wow Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 11:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Okay, I think I have to go wash my eyeballs. *runs screaming from the room* (If I am assuming right, these guys are from a WS supported home. [at least partially.] After all this talk of how important the tithes are, and how not sending them would be "robbing God", being able to see first hand what the tithes go towords just makes me all warm and fuzzy [NOT!!!] I wonder what God thinks about what they use "his" money for. God? God: Damn! Do not associate my name with those scanky asses!)(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Thursday, December 04, 2003, 15:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Where exactly is this clip taken from? Is this an "official" fam. production (meaning made for the public outside TF)? I just thought it looked more like a spoof or something that someone might have made as a joke, perhaps in the Brazil Music home... Does anyone know the details about this? Some things don't sound like something that would be included on a family video (Like the "Do I make you horny?" line and the silly names on the ending credits) I'm inclined to think this is someones idea of a bit of fun. Can't say I share their sense of humour!(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 11:05 (Agree/Disagree?) I still don't get it. We're demons from hell, but they're God's love for us? No wonder this place is full of atheists. (reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 01:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I've been thinking bout watching this purely for it's entertainment value.. But whats with the 50+mb filesize? I'd expect 30 minutes of DVD quality film for that much. Haven't these geniuses heard of compression.(reply to this comment)

From neez Wednesday, December 03, 2003, 07:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok.. To say those boys are suffering from violently repressed homoerotic tendencies would be putting it too lightly. I wonder if it was any of these dark dancers who hallucinated their latest arty demon. I can't decide what's worse. The fact that they actually attached their names to it, them dry-humping at the end, or that after 10+yrs, they still use that fucken 'don't our arms look like a cool star' move. Actualy, the only thing thats really changed is the addition of 2-dollar undies, & the lack of half decent lighting.(reply to this comment)

From Anthony Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 18:38 (Agree/Disagree?) No fucking way, I can't believe what I've just seen, but I guess I'll have to!(reply to this comment)

From CMer Thursday, December 04, 2003, 15:53 (Agree/Disagree?) But we are not a sex cult!!!(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, December 04, 2003, 17:20 (Agree/Disagree?) No, you're a religious cult with a lot of sexual abuse. There is a distinction!(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 16:11 (Agree/Disagree?) This is gonna fall under my repressed memories catagory. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 15:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I saw them put their hands on each other’s butts and shake them back and forth, and those were tighty-whities!!! I had to watch it again it was soooooo funny! White socks?! Crotch-grabbing?! Can anyone use their Spidy-sense to find out who these jokers are? I say they need more credit than they are receiving here. We should name them by name. (reply to this comment)

From Help! Unsave me, I'm drowning! Thursday, December 04, 2003, 00:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I know one dude from the BM Boys (they'r SO MOVING!), Pablo aka "Pablo Panties" --uh I mean "Pablo Undies" or "Pabs Briefs" on the video. Its gross to see this and to think I knew him as a sweet innocent kid. And Christian Drawers is enough to make me pray to get unsaved! Hey, we should have a t-shirt in the merchandise section, "The Unsaved" with scarlet-dripping advancing Vandari, our own take on "The Undead." Or the "Grateful Usaved." And the poor dude having DTs in his Long Johns, probably from too much Pabst that wasn't Brief enough. All I can say to y'all, fellow Vandari of all degrees and movingoners, CONGRATULATIONS TO US! We are the MENSA society of TF-birthers. But sweet mother, no wonder some of us have *issues* with the opposite sex! And pray tell who the hell is NTL? The latest Berg wannabe? I tell you, if TF never meets justice, tomorrow's worst cult guru will be someone raised in TF. They will think they can get away with more and more and more, all over again. Ans is anyone else disturbed by the url being called "kidzvidz"??? Like kidz komix, kiddie viddies...they do use that term for children quite a bit in TF...do they not get the inappropriateness?(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Sweet Mother of Christ! That is some of the lamest and most repressedly homoerotic shit I have ever seen. It is so bad that I am having trouble deciding where to begin. First, ripping off the computer voice from Radiohead's OK Computer (a personal favorite) is patently offensive and oh so lame. Next, I guess the family figured that the sexual objectification of women made for bad PR so they got a bunch of guys to strip?!? Who the fuck decided Chippendale wannabees is the next big thing for spreading the love of Jesus. The black light with white clothing is so forever ago. At least in my club phase we had already moved on to strobes. And what talent free goon did the filming? The quick in and out zooming on the briefs made me reach for my wastebasket in case my breakfast came up. And finally the sorry ass pumping-humping with the arms. They looked like they were doing it at eachother. And I thought I saw one of them mount the other during the exit. Overall a nauseating bastardisation of many modern media genres. It obviates the inherent problem with people who live in a cocoon. There is no peer review or competition so they spiral out of control with delusions of their own grandeur. What would be hilarious is to see these clowns go head to head with a real male revue with DJ Frankie Bones (Oh Yeah!) spinning for them. I hear there is an outfit out of Atlanta that appears on stage wearing only home made cock socks. They would surely give these goofy white boys a run for their money. And yes, someone should definitely record this for future amusement and embarassment purposes.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 12:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh my God!!! What in the name of all things holy was that? It was like Chippendale meets New Kids on the Block with a touch of Sesame Street. How ridiculous! Like Exister said this is what happens with no peer review. It's like Michael Jackson. No one to tell him he's getting off-base and so he just gets worse and worse and worse! Was that breakdancing?! And what's with their lame moves? What's with these idiots? Is there no point that just one of them thinks for half a second, 'You know this is really quite stupid. Let's stop this now.'? The music was just a weird and stupid. Is there no end? This is better than television. The Family never fails to produce endless crap for all our amusement!!! Hey, Exister, you sound pretty sharp. Have we met ever? What is your email? Maybe we can find out if we know each other. And is Tinaz still around? What was your email again? (reply to this comment)

From katrim4 Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 13:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Nancy, Tina's e'mail works on and off. If you really want to get in touch with her you should call her. Write me at katrim4@hotmail.com and I will give you her telephone number.(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 12:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi Nancy, My e-mail is exister99@hotmail.com. If you were in Mexico or Central America during the 80's I may know you. You probably don't remember me for being sharp though since every time I showed a spark of intellect I got locked in a dark, cold room away from the dictionaries and encyclopedias. Drop me a line sometime.(reply to this comment)

From Bella Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 02:05 (Agree/Disagree?) What the hell was that!? I did not need to see a bunch of dorks in bad underwear! That was some scary shit! Wow!(reply to this comment)

From Noodle User Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 01:37 (Agree/Disagree?) When it started off with the guys dancing in the black light I figured it must be a group of 14 or 15 year olds trying to dance to one of NTL's latest "hits" (For goodness sake, he couldn't even come up with original phrases and lyrics!). But it became embarrassingly obvious that most of these guys are upwards of 18. BTW, about the choreography: try 70's. (Hmmm... we need a cool dance motion for this part of the song....oh... I KNOW, how about this [puts hands on hip and wiggles butt]) Let's just hope that when they leave the Family, someone will have a copy of this to remind them of.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 15:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh my fucking god!!!!!!!!! What was that skip with one foot/ backs hunched they were doing toward the end? Breakdancing? Nike Jerseys? It's all just so wrong. (reply to this comment)

From wow Monday, December 01, 2003, 22:44 (Agree/Disagree?) OMG! This video has got to be one of the funniest things I have ever seen! I laughed until the tears came. Dude, I haven't laughed like that for a long time. Thanks for posting that link; I will have that impression with me for a long, long time.... (reply to this comment)

From Obtherion Monday, December 01, 2003, 22:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually, I confess I have the hots for NTL. Anyone that can turn out his girl, if that will get him ahead, can definitely suck up whatever comes his way, and that's what sweet NTL is all about, and why I love him. Happy Nov. 30th. (sorry I am late) to NTL, from the Big O. (reply to this comment)

From neez Monday, December 01, 2003, 17:38 (Agree/Disagree?) That's some funny shit.. I guess they've had to search high & low(mostly low) for some new prophecy comics that no one's seen yet. But seriously.. the adventures of evil arty guy & his (evil)white hanky!? They should've stuck with the magik card readings.(reply to this comment)

From Uncle Jeloserphat Monday, December 01, 2003, 18:25 (Agree/Disagree?) hALLLA barrashinndi barrabindi baddaboom...Bejesus speeking: for this, the white handkerchief, is the evils spirit of Luciano Pavarotti, who even in his mighty and weighty pride doth not sing praises to me but constantly flatters with all that Tosca and Boheme garbage instead of the sweeet songs of Jiminy Spencer. Therefore I have sent him the spirit of Obtherion who waves his white hankie through him in strong delusion. (reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, December 01, 2003, 12:13 (Agree/Disagree?) All that's missing now is a lesbian angel to fight the gay demon. Maybe Zerby can have spirit sex with the lesbian angel in return for her help. At this very moment Tamar is furiously trying to find gay and lesbian fantasy art (now there's an interesting sub-genre) to trace. But seriously people. Destroy all belief, and with it paranoia. Where there is no fear there is no control.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Monday, December 01, 2003, 20:08 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL LOL re: exister comment. This makes me sick. I'd rather eat shit then listen to what their "Jesus" has to say..................Literally(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, December 01, 2003, 11:45 (Agree/Disagree?) What makes me mad about this is the bigotry! They are literally demonizing homosexual people. They surely are a bunch of very disturbed people. They hate Jewish people, black people (unless they're "yielded") and homosexual people. It's really very sick how far their hatred and anger and paranoia have gone. They are the angry bitter ones. They are the ones who need counseling and medication and a whole lot more. They are one step away from strapping on bombs and blowing up abortion clinics or airliners. People this deluded and fanatical that can be convinced their own children are demon possessed because they speak out about the sexual, physical and psychological abuse they endured as small children are nothing short of dangerous. You know, the FBI might have some interest in these folks, especially their radical anti-Semitic beliefs. I wouldn't be surprised if they started killing in the name of their "God". They raped, beat and tortured their own children. What's keeping them from becoming complete religious terrorists? They advocate the fall of the United States. Their founder spent time in Libya with Gadofy (Did I spell that wrong?). They supported terrorist organizations in the Philippines. This is a violent religious cult for all intents and purposes. We are lucky to have gotten out when we did with our lives. (reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Monday, December 01, 2003, 10:34 (Agree/Disagree?) When people objectify their fears in this manner--"It's demons! That's who's causing my problems!"--they generally see themselves as extremely powerless and unable to do anything meaningful at the behest of their own will. The condition is a lot like addiction--an externalized entity has been given the power of control and responsibility. Psychologically speaking, these people are extremely stuck, as they don't have access to their inner convictions, strength, and courage to change. Very sad if your parents are in that place. If you believe in the power of prayer, you can always ask your higher power for the strength and courage to be loving & patient & wise. Or you can be pissed off, which you certainly have a right to be. When faced with the delimma of whether or not to hold onto my righteous anger, I always ask myself: Would I rather be happy or right?(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, December 01, 2003, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Anovagrrl, I understand your point regarding the powerlessness that our parents feel and why it’s easier to hear that problems are caused by evil demons. The need to find a scapegoat or excuse for a difficult situation is so typical. Honestly though, I heard “would you rather be happy or right?” too many times growing up. “Happiness” (as in ignorance is bliss) was shoved down my throat and always required compromise, denial and suspension of belief. The analogy of addiction is interesting. How would you advise children of addicts to react to their parent’s attempts at rationalization of their illness? The sub-text of this publication from Maria is extremely manipulative. She is telling parents to exploit their children’s desire to be loved and accepted by them, and to use that to discount our experiences, to apologize without actually admitting anything in writing and to hold the denial of contact with our brothers and sisters over our head. I can only speak for myself, but my parents need very little encouragement to be arrogant, dismissive and manipulative. I know that Maria is telling my parents exactly what they wanted to hear. It’s unfortunate that it’s difficult to be subtle, or to address issues gently, because they often just don’t get it. With my parents I had to lay it out in black and white which was very difficult to do. The youngest in my family is five years old though, and for me it is important that my parents understand how to do things better now. (reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Monday, December 01, 2003, 13:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules, your point is well taken. So much for off-the-cuff answers during a coffee break. Still, I think you can be "happy"--if being happy means maintaining your peace of mind even while confronting people about serious issues. But you're right--hitting obtuse people over the head with a verbal 2-by-4 is never pleasant. My main concern was with the frustration & bitterness that tends to develop when dealing with obstinent, dishonest people. I don't think giving away your peace of mind is the necessary cost of confrontation. You can intervene and speak your truth, but only your parents can make the decision to change. If they don't change, you grieve your losses, but there's a place where you have to let go or you will loose your sanity (peace of mind). Letting go is much easier said than done. It's not about forgetting or giving up. It's about keeping your center of emotional gravity (serenity). It helps me to open up to my higher power. This is what I would tell children of alcoholics & addicts.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, December 01, 2003, 18:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Uh yeah, "coffee breaks." That's when I do all my web surfing! (not) I liked what you said about serenity. Do you ever yell "serenity now!" like Frank Costanza? (reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Monday, December 01, 2003, 19:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I wish I was as funny as Frank Constanza. The more I think about my pretentiousness, the more I wish I had simply said, "Don't let the bastards get you down." Coffee breaks: Yeah, well, I like to multitask. Unfortunately, I'm somewhat estrogen depleted and miss a few licks now and again.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Tuesday, December 02, 2003, 22:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Anovagrrl, I don't think you were being pretentious at all. These issues are literally minefields, filled with with triggers in simple semantics, that are all too raw when they are activated. I understand and appreciate what you said about serenity. There is a time to let go, which I totally agree with. Personally I had one (okay maybe two) of The Conversations with my parents and then that was that. I said what I had to say, they heard it, and then we all moved on. As I said, they have made significant changes (that were not court ordered, unlike with Zerby's changes) which let me know that they did actually get it. It always amazes me that some people think that those who speak out sit around all day wallowing in their self pity and "bitterness". Good lord, who on earth has the time for that. You know, people in the Family always say that we have nothing better to do than sit around whining. When I saw NTL's little "full monty", white-socks-as-a-bonus (umm, you don't have to be that English, and their socks aren't white) thing, you have to wonder about the extra time on THEIR hands. I don't think any of us WITH A LIFE would have the time to do something like that, let alone film it, make a soundtrack, digitize it and post it online, and then be all proud of it. For me personally the career and workplace I have now is not one I would have chosen if my choices had not been so limited, but I love my work, and I love the place I work in. I work as a programmer and would never have had the chance to do this in the Family (because I'm just a girl). Due to the place I work (a children's hospital), I have a chance to contribute to society in a real way and to learn and I am respected and fairly compensated for what I do. Okay so I didn't get to go University at the age all the kids in "society-at-large" did. I now treasure every moment in school. It is a high just sitting in a lecture, having every choice open to me and being able to debate and discuss anything. Uni for me is not a chance to hook up or a drinking spree, but is an opportunity to absorb (and question) information that would have never ever been available to me in the Family. Jules (reply to this comment)

From &^5$3# Monday, December 01, 2003, 09:23 (Agree/Disagree?) OK, anybody have the link to the fantasy art they looked at to get this one? And I think they will come to regret saying "Lucifer was the original apostate." I mean, these people slip up even when they think they are being careful!(reply to this comment)

from a Monday, December 01, 2003 - 04:28 (Agree/Disagree?) started reading the article but could not get through it in one time, it's just making me sick, outraged....how deluded can they get?!!! it's frustrating not to be able to confront those brainwashers face to face! ok, gotta go calm my murder impulses... (reply to this comment)