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from NWMS is no. 2... Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 07:05 (Agree/Disagree?) .. in this weeks UK Bestsellers ( paperback ) chart. (reply to this comment)

From NWMS Tuesday, February 05, 2008, 07:23 (Agree/Disagree?) is now Number One in this weeks UK Non-Fiction Bestsellers list. (as listed in the Sunday Times) (reply to this comment)

from limerick Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 05:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Castleconnell connection to Family international http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Limerick_Post:_Castleconnell_in_cult_claim Allegations that local businessman encouraged young womans involvement http://www.limericktoday.com/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=3419&ArticleID=3115946 limerick forum http://www.limerickblogger.org/blog/?p=3804 (reply to this comment)

from vix Friday, August 17, 2007 - 14:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Julie, Celeste, Kristina, I've waited a long time to write something up about the book. I find it hard to express myself when I feel that the subject is one that deserves my best efforts. But as long as I wait it doesn't seem to be getting any easier. I'll just go ahead and write something now and hope it conveys something of what i'm trying to say. I think you girls have accomplished a great thing. The first book written from the perspective of second generation, that's something to be proud of in itself! But more than that, you've made our collective experiences accessible to 'outsiders' in the way that only in-depth, honest explanation can, and anyone who reads it will come away with a much clearer understanding of the specifics of the cult experience and the psychology behind it. Well done! You each did a great job writing your respective stories and the overall effect is one of a multi-layered yet cohesive look into the complexities of your (and our) background. I respect your commitment to raising public awareness. It's not always easy to deal with the ramifications of such openness, I'm sure. (reply to this comment)

From moon beam Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 07:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you vix, I hope you are well. x (reply to this comment)

From moon beam Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 07:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you vix, I hope you are well. x (reply to this comment)

From cassy Sunday, August 19, 2007, 10:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you Vix. It means a lot to get written support from our own espeially now that we're getting the usual denial comments on places like Amazon. Even though we are prepared for it, it still hurts. We just read today the article posted in the Irish Independent last Friday. We personally think it's the most different, personal and accurate article yet. Posted below. Feature Article Friday August 17 2007 'We went to The Square in Tallaght yesterday and I realised I'd been there before. I was on the very same spot where I stood 10 years ago with the other kids, getting money by ballooning -- twisting balloons into shapes, animals, cartoon characters and selling them. I saw lots of Ireland like that. It was strange to be there again." Juliana Buhring is sitting with two of her sisters in a Dublin hotel, as they revisit their often cruel, lonely and highly controlled lives in The Family, the cult also known as the Children of God -- though there is little that is Godlike in its many activities. Juliana (26), her sisters Celeste (32) and Kristina Jones (31) were born into the cult. While Juliana has a different mother, all are daughters of British-born Christopher Jones, who at age 56 has already fathered 15 children by seven women, his youngest still a toddler. Each sister has now left the cult. Juliana was the last to go, in 2004. They have written Not Without My Sister, a harrowing story of betrayal and abandonment by their parents and the many other adults in their lives. The book is dedicated to their sister Davida, who committed suicide in 2005, aged 23. The organisation was founded in southern California by David Berg in 1968. In its heyday 5,000 children were born into the cult, including actor River Phoenix, who died of a drug-related seizure in 1993, aged 23. In the initial years after its founding, communities of the cult were opened across the US. In 1972, the cult left America to evade negative publicity and began to to recruit in other countries, starting in Europe and eventually spreading to the Far East. The Family is most infamous for sex acts between adults and children, revealed in chilling detail by the sisters, who were sexualised from the age of three. 'Sex dates' with men of their grandparents' age were an early fact of life, initially being kissed and touched inappropriately. Before age 10, many children had to provide oral sex or masturbate the adult, leading all too soon to coerced underage intercourse. If they resisted, they were accused of being selfish, evil or ungrateful. "David Berg said that children liked sex, so no matter how we felt, they chose to believe we liked it," said Juliana. The book admirably succeeds in its role to lift the lid on the dark world of The Family, characterised by beatings, manipulation and exploitation. David Berg predicted the world would end in 1993, with Family members destined to become God's Endtime Soldiers, free from the shackles of the System, as life outside was called. Disparate groups lived in overcrowded conditions in large houses, moving round the world, obeying no laws but the rules of David Berg, which dominated every moment of their lives, and allowed no space for thought, reflection or peace. "The whole atmosphere kept you 'up'," says Juliana, hunching her shoulders, "you were constantly in a state of fight or flight." In approaching the project, each sister wrote her own story, then came together for an intense time of editing and discussion. Through access to cult documentation, personal details seared into memory and discussions with other former members, they have created a chronicle of the bewildering, oppressive maelstrom that was their lives. Celeste and Juliana were separated from their mothers by age six. Kristina was taken from her father at age three, but the remaining parent, often physically or emotionally absent, fell far short of providing the loving security that children need. Their positive survival seems a tribute to their own strength of characters. Sitting together in Dublin, they present an affectionate, easy threesome. "We didn't know about each other, really. Dad liked to keep his families separate. But when we finally met as adults we got on famously. We had a shared background with the same reference points. Meeting people from other cults, they all say exactly the same things about abuse and control," said Celeste. Juliana lived in Ireland for a year, abandoned by parents, based in a large house behind high walls in Castleconnell, Co Limerick, under the domination of an angry and violent house leader. Aged 16, she had been raped the previous year by a cult member, and was deeply depressed and anorexic. One day she ran away, and remembers walking along bog-lined roads while the house was ransacked to find her. Today, healthy and well, Juliana remains in contact with her father as she feels a responsibility towards her five siblings still living with him. She is also the one who challenges him most. "There was no honesty from dad; he never had pride in me. I never felt love coming from him, probably my love for him died the soonest. I won't play the little scenes with him. I call his bluff and he hates that." When her father heard about the book, he flew into a rage, and sent her a long text describing his daughters as 'enemies' who are 'slandering and betraying' The Family. Kristina says because the break was so early, she remained attached to an idealised father. "Then when I left the cult at 12 and began to see it objectively, I had sympathy for him and for many years did not lose hope of him and in him. Later I became very angry towards him but I've learnt to work through that, and more recently I am at peace with it all." Celeste's feelings are different again. "When I was small, he was a good father, and when I left The Family, I had sadness and pain and worry. But he has never acknowledged that what happened to us was ever wrong. I have now no need to talk to him, and there has been no contact for two years. I'm sad at that." Equally, there is no close relationship with their mothers; more a feeling of some compassion for the lives they endured. Their take on forgiveness for all they themselves have suffered is equally mature. "You can't forgive unless your abuser wants to be forgiven. You need an admission from them that what they have done is wrong," said Juliana. "Forgiveness has been a long road for me. Today I don't hold grudges. I've let a lot go for my own peace of mind so that I'm not still caught up in the past," said Kristina. Today, David Berg is dead, Family membership is greatly diminished and the organisation is globally discredited. Thousands have left over the years, but many children born into the cult do badly in the outside world, turning to alcohol, drugs and self-harm, often leading to an early death. The sisters, in contrast, are strong, caring and making new lives for themselves. Kristina works voluntarily with the Safe Passage Foundation, which helps ex-cult members, and lives in Nottingham with her 15-year-old son, Jordan, and partner Carl. They plan to marry next year. Juliana and Celeste live in Bristol -- Juliana paying her way through university studying for a BA in philosophy and psychology. Celeste lives with her nine-year-old daughter Cherie, has a degree in Psychology and Education and recently landed a job as a project worker with a national children's agency. They have all helped set up RISE International, (Resources, Information, Socialisation, Education), which works to protect children from abuse in cults. Not surprisingly, their attitude to religion is negative. "I see religion as a method of control and abuse. It'd be difficult to see it as a source of happiness," says Kristina. "My philosophy would be humanist; to be good and kind," says Celeste. When asked about their greatest regret, they agree it is that they did not feel able to leave the cult sooner and were unable to protect their sister Davida from the despair and abandonment that ended in suicide. Their greatest hope is that their younger siblings will leave the cult soon and begin a life of freedom in the outside world, and that the current leadership of The Family will pay with imprisonment for the abuse they have presided over. Their good-bye was warm and sincere. As I walked away, I looked back and saw the three young women sitting together, each looking forward to carving out a new life. http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/when-i-left-the-family-i-had-sadness-and-pain-and-worry-but-dad-has-never-acknowledged-that-what-happened-to-us-was-ever-wrong-1061042.html(reply to this comment)

From live_fast-die_young Friday, September 14, 2007, 04:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Ahh, shame I missed your visit to Dublin. My relatives have all bought the book, it seems to be a great seller here in Ireland and the UK. Congrats on that. Curious about the home here in Ireland mentioned. Is it the same one I lived in...I believe the area was Duleek? (reply to this comment)

from wind Friday, August 17, 2007 - 02:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Uncle Johnny, you may not be a pedophile, but there were plenty in the the "family", have you ever read the "Story of Davidito" where he is shown sucking on womens breasts that are not his mothers and being jerked off as a young kid, "Life with grandpa" where Mo makes love to Techi in heaven , or "Heavens girl" where she gets gang banged and likes it, and uses sex to get what she wants like "Flirty Fishing" or call it what it was prostitution, or "Macumba" where Mo gets fucked by wierd godess spirits? Are you for real , I feel like screaming out of frustration. I grew up with these books as my childhood bedtime stories. How dare you deny these girls the right to tell their story. What, you think the abuse stopped when sex with children was banned in 1987, it just got more secretive. The child abuse happened, and it was condoned in writing by Mo and Maria. And what about the damage done to the kids who grew up with sharing and love dancing, I remember very clearly girls as young as 12 on the sharing list. David Berg was a sick freak who was insetuas with his own doughters. Making Deborah his queen, thats why she freaked out and left, things got really wierd and they lost touch with reality and Karen Zerby should be held accountable. I hope Moses David is burning in hell, for the hurt he has coused and the permanent damage felt by many. Two of my sisters suffer from schitzophrenia coused by post traumatic stress and I hold Family Care International responsible , you are choosing to be part of the continued abuse by denying it happened. May you find the truth someday and get out. Its unbelievable you can pretend it never happened by burning a few books, well I'm sorry but people have copies and it's a fact, the Children of God( you should be called Children of the Devil), condoned sexual encounters with children until 1987, and I don't think they ever kicked out the predators so you know it went on after that. Shame on you - M (reply to this comment)

From reality check Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 06:36 (Agree/Disagree?) No, he's not for real. Wind, don't get so worked up...this "Uncle Johnny" is obviously a joke, prank or someone trying to pull your leg. --"Typical Family "Love" ", come on! Who would write that?-"Uncle Johnny"?? It doesn't sound real, I don't think that is from someone really still in the cult. What you wrote is true, (most of it anyway...Mo doesn't make love to techi in Life with grandpa, I believe that happens in Heaven girl) and I totally agree with you but I don't think "Uncle Johnny" is real.(reply to this comment)

From historian Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 07:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Cartoon drawing of David Berg and Karen Zerby in bed with techi, where he describes having sex with them is on the last page in the orange 'Heaven's Children'(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 07:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh he was real alright. It was sent to our website. There is another TF member who posted a 'review' on amazon.com entitled 'Who are the real child abusers? ' I thought David Daniel Lykins deserved a response, which was written and posted by Peter. ------------ The book "Not without my Sister" is a great work of fiction but the three sisters who supposedly wrote it should be ashamed of themselves for passing it off as a true story. The Children of God/The Family International has always been held in controversy because of their commitment and lifestyle, but they are one of the most studied and documented new religious movements in existence. There are dozens of books written about them by respected sociologists and academics who are leaders in their fields including an excellent book "The Endtime Family" by William Sims Bainbridge based on questionnaires and interviews with over 1,000 members of the group. Bainbridge is unquestionably among the most able scholars in the sociology of religion today. Or some of the excellent research done by Eileen Barker, professor in sociology, and emeritus member of the London School of Economics and probably the leading scholar on new religious movements in Europe today. The number of serious books and studies about this group runs to the hundreds. This book however is bunk! It was ill responsible and sensational books - and reporting - like this that led to police raids on their communities in France, Australia, Spain and Argentina in the early 1990's resulting in over 600 children being forcibly taken from their families in Gestapo style raids at gunpoint. After weeks, and in some countries months, of imprisonment and thorough examinations of the children for abuse to try to justify their actions not one single case of abuse was found. You can find all this information as a matter of public record. So who are the real child abusers? If you really believe the story these girls are spinning then I have a bridge in Brooklyn up for sale you might be interested in. ---------------------------------------- peter frouman- Mr. Lykins, It is generally expected that someone who writes a book review has actually read the book. To write a book review without having actually read the book is intellectually dishonest. I strongly suspect that you have never actually read this book. Your transparent attempt to pass off regurgitated Family PR statements as a "book review" of some sort is pathetic. You claim the book is a work of fiction yet fail to cite a single example of anything in the book that is untrue. If your claim that the book is fiction were true, you should be able to come up with thousands of examples of things in it that are untrue yet you can't even find one. However, there is a small mountain of evidence to prove many of the allegations of child abuse by the authors of this book. This evidence includes not only publications by The Family/Children of God and sworn testimony under oath by numerous witnesses but even photographs and video recordings. To dismiss their allegations as fiction you have to ignore not only the mountain of evidence but also the judicial findings in which these allegations have been tested and proven to be true in a court of law. For example, you have to reject both the 1994 decision of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board as well as the 1995 ruling of The Right Honourable Lord Justice Ward (W 42 1992 IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE FAMILY DIVISION PRINCIPAL REGISTRY IN THE MATTER OF ST (A MINOR) AND IN THE MATTER OF THE SUPREME COURT ACT 1991h). While not all the allegations of abuse in the book have been tested in a court of law, the ones that have have been proven to be true. One important reason for that is because the evidence is both voluminous and irrefutable. I doubt you have read everything that has been published about the Children of God/Family of Love/The Family cult. If you had, you would know that even the "scholars" which The Family International PR boards strongly endorse and recomend as being the most fair and objective have all confirmed what child abuse survivors who were raised in The Family already know: that children in The Family/Children of God were sexually, physically and emotionally abused and neglected. There are, of course, some disagreements and disputes about certain issues including how widespread the problem was and the veracity of some allegations. In many cases, The Family and its supporters have also attempted to convince people the child sexual abuse is rarely harmful, that what society and the law defines as child sexual abuse isn't actually abusive and that insincere, vague and general statements they dare to call apologies are an acceptable substitute for providing some restitution to the victims (although no amount of money could ever be enough), incarceration and accountability for child abusers and enacting policies that actually protect children and deny child abusers access to more victims. But the fact that some children in The Family were abused is irrefutable and no one (except some Family spokespersons) have seriously attempted to deny this. For example, the Family of Love itself published photographs (in the first edition of "My Little Fish") of an adult woman (Sara Stevenson Kelley) performing fellatio on a toddler (Ricky Rodriguez - the adopted son of cult founder David Berg and the biological son of cult leader Karen Zerby and a hotel employee she had sexual intercourse with while practicing the cult's religious prostitution ministry - Flirty Fishing). Even the most loyal academic supporters of The Family agree that it is criminal child sexual abuse for an adult woman to perform oral sodomy on a toddler and that some of the acts described and photographed in the "Davidito Letters" and the "Story of Davidito" book were acts of criminal child sexual abuse. Only its primary spokesperson for North America was stupid enough to tell both the New York Times and ABC News in 2005 that Mr. Rodriguez was never sexually abused despite the existence of photographs and written accounts published by the cult which document his abuse at an early age in graphic and explicit detail. But I digress. Even one of The Family's favorite authors -James D. Chancellor - acknowledges that some children in the Children of God/The Family were sexually abused. If you doubt this, perhaps you should read his "corporate autobiography" (see Introduction - page xxii) of the cult titled "Life in The Family - An Oral History of the Children of God" (Syracuse University Press, 2000). Perhaps you should ask Mr. Chancellor what he thinks about the horrible things that happened to many of the children at "Music with Meaning" (MWM) in Greece and elsewhere. It seems it is only people like you, Mr. Lykins, who are so eager to dismiss the accounts of child abuse survivors as "fiction" and apparently without even reading the book you claim to review. Similarly, you refer to the legal records of the criminal investigations of members of the organization. However, I strongly doubt you have ever read those records in their entirety. If those records from all the civil and criminal cases involving members of The Family/Children of God and their children truly vindicated the individuals involved in every single case, then surely the cult would make all those records publicly available rather than merely providing a few snippets of the portions of the documents they like. Even though most of these records are public - it is an expensive, difficult and time consuming process to get them from dozens of jurisdictions in numerous countries. However, if they wanted to, The Family International could easily make them publicly available. The fact that they have never released a complete copy of a single one of these documents speaks volumes. I think one reason they haven't is that their claim that they have won every single court case has been proven to be a bold faced lie and that releasing all the records they have would further expose them as untruthful. Similarly, the claim that examinations of Family children have never uncovered a single case of abuse has also been proven to be absolutely false. The claim is only plausible if you completely ignore the cases in which abuse was found. However, you did ask an important question - "So who are the real child abusers?" which deserves an answer even though I only have time to list a few of the "real child abusers." Here are a few of the "real abusers" - in no particular order. Gerald P. Curran - a long-time member of The Family/Children of God and convicted child molester who sexually abused a child over a period of 9 years in Children of God/The Family communues in Europe and the United States. Unfortunately, after pleading guilty in Henry County, Illinois to "aggravated criminal sexual assault of a child under the age of 13," on July 6, 1995, he received an extraordinarily light sentence of 11 years of which he only served 5. Contrary to your claim that "not one single case of abuse was found", in fact the Honorable Judge Jay M. Hanson did find that the victim had been abused and I think any rational person would agree that aggravated criminal sexual assault of a child under the age of 13 meets the definition of child abuse. More info http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Gerald_P._Curran Philip Sloan -On April 23, 1998, Judge James Milliken of the Superior Court of California, County of San Diego, ordered a child abused by long-time Family member Phillip Sloan removed from the custody of two members of The Family. Here are some excerpts from the records of the case -begin quote- SEXUAL ABUSE (Welfare and Institutions Code 300(d)) The child has been sexually abused, or there is substantial risk that the child will be sexually abused, as defined in subdivision (b) of section 11165 of the Penal Code by his or her parent or guardian or a member of the child's household. The parent or guardian has failed to adequately protect the child from sexual abuse and the parent or guardian knew or should have reasonably known that the child was in danger of sexual abuse. COUNT 1: On or about and between 1986 to 1990 the child's stepfather PHILIP SLOAN, a member of the child's household, sexually abused said child, including but not limited to, requiring the child to wash his penis and massage his penis. Mr. Sloan would wash her vagina with his fingers including digital penetration. * Source: Superior Court of California, County of San Diego, Juvenile Dependency Petition 512134, page 3, 1998-03-05. EVALUATION: [redacted] has grown up in a family with nine children. Her family has been active in the "Children of God" religious group. This group has advocated sexual activity with minors as a pathway to God. As a result, [redacted] has experienced multiple incidents of sexual abuse with numerous men. The sexual abuse has occured in several countries and in several states. * Source: Superior Court of California, County of San Diego, Juvenile Dependency Petition 512134, Social Study, page 18, 1998-03-04. The petition is sustained and the Court makes a true finding on WI300 (D) Count 01 These findings were made by clear and convincing evidence. Source: Judge James Milliken. Superior Court of California, County of San Diego, Juvenile Court Minute Order, Petition 512134, DSS No. 0L97355 S3 11 1998-04-23. -end quote- More information is at http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Philip_Sloan While Judge Milliken did find that Mr. Sloan had abused the child in question, Mr. Sloan has never, to my knowledge, been convicted of a criminal offense involving the sexual abuse of children. Fiona Spencer - Fiona was the first wife of Jeremy Spencer. While I could summarize the allegations against her, it is far better I think to let her own words speak for themselves. www.xfamily.org/index.php/Testimony_of_a_Child_Bride_%26_Young_Mother media.xfamily.org/docs/fam/fn/enyclopedia/fnenc-1308-1310.pdf -begin quote- Where we live at MWM we do have a lot of fellowship, a lot of sharing, & the children are very fortunate to be able to partake of this. As I said before, it's easy for our little ones to share & stay with one another, even make love if they can, they're all small and they can manage it. But when they get 10, 11, 12, & on, our children like to share with the adults. I found some adults in our Family are very helpful, very loving, & very patient towards our children, & will take time to really help them & love them & even teach them. In fact, I haven't really heard of a bad experience in our Family with our children sharing. I have talked a lot with the children about my own testimony and I treat them as adults, because, although it was a long time ago when I was their age, 12-13, I would have loved to have been in the situation we are now. I feel that almost all of our Family, the brethren are really understanding, very gentle, very loving, & there is no need to fear for the children, & they should be really free to love and share with the other brethren just as we do. When they have sperm, when they start their period, that's the testing time, how much do you trust the Lord, how much do you believe His promises, His blessings, etc? Being worried like our parents, the older generation are watching us, their grandparents; or not caring, only wanting to flow with the spirit, with this love, helping the children to be really free, & helping them to bring forth fruit! -end quote- Coincidentally, Fiona is writing here about the same "MWM" where one of the authors, Celeste Jones, lived. Stuart Harris Baylin - Unfortunately, I still have physical scars on my body as permanent reminders of what this creep did to me and other children. He seemed to really enjoy torturing children. Perhaps Mr. Lykins will disagree but I think that beating young children until they bleed, breaking their bones and teeth, giving them black eyes and bloody noses and traumatizing and terrorizing them so much that it takes years and years before they can literally be close to another human being without the ever present fear of being hit and get rid of the involuntary defensive reflexes that accompanied the fear are some of the things that make someone a "real abuser." It seems you feel that those who tried to protect children from monsters like Mr. Baylin are the "real abusers." If so, I couldn't disagree with you more. By the way, Mr. Baylin is still a member in good standing of The Family International. He lives in Mexico City where he is not only reportedly held in great respect and esteem by Family members in the region but is allowed to have contact with children. Sadly, due to the statute of limitations and the stringent child abuser protection policies The Family instituted, Mr. Baylin has never been convicted in a criminal court of child abuse. He was cited to appear before a criminal court in Argentina 3 times but never appeared, instead opting to flee the country as a fugitive with two abducted children. more info http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Stuart_Harris_Baylin http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=1&Cat=10&ID=2953 media.xfamily.org/docs/legal/usa/staughton/psf-20060914.pdf media.xfamily.org/docs/legal/usa/staughton/mqf-20060929.pdf This is probably already too long but I hope it helps you understand who the "real abusers" are. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0007248067/sr=8-1/qid=1187791979/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop/103-3154297-2309411?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&n=283155&s=books&customer-reviews.start=1&qid=1187791979&sr=8-1#RLEB27J8YH1I8 (reply to this comment)

From aka_hannya Wednesday, August 22, 2007, 16:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I believe that David Lykins is Josh Lykins father. You did mention Josh in the book right? I don't have the time to go back and look at it at the moment, but I thought that I did recall it. I think that may be the reasoning behind his response. I started to type a response to him the day before yesterday, but it just made me way to emotional and had to stop. I lived with them for about a year in Norway. I actually have good memories of him and his 2nd wife; they were probably the best people there. I know his kids don't like to get into big conversations about him here.(reply to this comment)

from Typical Family "Love" Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 18:07 (Agree/Disagree?) "I am so disappointed [...] you have written such lies [...] I read a load of rubbish [...] what you have said could not be farther from the truth. I'm sure you wrote your book just for money, why? because the enemy seems to have taken you over.I hope and pray you will tell the truth, 'cause if you don't, you will regret it on the last day [...] Love, Uncle Johnny." (reply to this comment)