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Getting Out : Seeking Justice

Assigning Responsibility

from Guccigirl - Monday, August 13, 2007
accessed 968 times

What does Seeking Justice really mean?

The intent of this post is to provoke thought and to pose the question what do we really mean when we use the term: “Seeking Justice”. This post may be offensive to some and my views on the topic may appear somewhat harsh; however, I find myself compelled to address an issue that I feel has been grossly overlooked. I would also like to point out that this is not intended to undermine those of us whom have diligently and ever so bravely spoken out against The Family in the quest to see justice prevail. I am also fully aware that what I am writing might well be very disturbing & unsettling to many, but in my defense I would like to state that I am not writing out of ignorance; but rather based on the undeniable reality that we are faced with.

Like it or not, The Family will always be blanketed and protected by Law under Religious Freedom. Unfortunately we do not have the same advantages as the victims of the Catholic Church or the Hari Chrisnas – based on the fact that their crimes were committed within a centralized system, within established religious organization. Our experiences on the other hand were not centralized, most of us do not know the really names of our predators and the crimes mostly occurred in “foreign” countries, outside of an established religious and legal system. Which basically means, we are on a wild ghost hunt.

For the record, I wasn’t born into the Family, my mother joined when I was about 7 years old. Perhaps having known what life was like prior to being inducted into The Family doctrines caused my time served in TF worse for me, maybe I was more aware of the difference between right and wrong, maybe because of my small taste of “a normal life” the effects of Family life were a lot harder on me. Who knows?

From a realistic point of view, in the search for justice, we have to determine what we want and mean when we make the statement: “Seeking Justice”. As the statement itself carries a huge burden of responsibility, and involves the assignment of responsibility. So the questions that we need to be asking ourselves are: What is it that we really want? What is the end result that we are looking to obtain? Are we really willing to make the sacrifices and the carry the burden that it would take to see those required result materialize?

If the objective is to disband TF, then I hate to break it to you – it’s not going to happen, sorry. Why? Because that would infringe on a persons rights of religious freedom; which as we are all aware, of in the real world it is illegal to deny anyone of his or her religious obligations & beliefs. If the objective is for TF to come clean, admit what they have done & make some sort of restitution in any form, sorry my dear friends, but we all know that will never happen either. Finally, if the objective is to see our predators locked up for their crimes then we have to really consider the realities of what has to happen in order for Justice to truly prevail.

For Justice to prevail, we would have to do the unthinkable: Assign responsibility. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but this means turning in our own parents. Yes, I said it. Most of our parents came from “normal families” and lead a “normal life” prior to joining TF. Which means: they knew the difference between right and wrong. Child protection laws began in 1871 so please, spare me from “they didn’t know any better” routine.

Let’s start with the legal definitions - NEGLECT: Omission or deprivation of necessities (basic needs) of food, clothing, safety, shelter, supervision and medical treatment – that causes physical, mental or emotional deprivation/impairment”. Our parents were legally responsible to ascertain that we were safe – Did they? Some did, but the vast majority did not. Lets talk about VICTOR Camps or those of us who were either Mene case’s &/or were subjected to unusually and cruel punishments… which included solitary confinement, deprivation of food, water & sleep, not forgetting the endless beatings. How about those of us who were in need of medical attention? I had meningitis, was close to death and the only medical treatment that I received was some olive oil on my forehead. I lived in a different country than my mother at the time, so guess what – one of your parents was responsible!!! Is my mother responsible too? Of course she is, which brings me to the next topic…

ABANDOMENT: “ a situation in which the parent or legal custodian of a child primarily responsible for the child’s welfare, while being able , makes no provision for the child’s support and makes no effort to communicate with the child”. How many of us were abandoned by our parents? I was. Leadership told my mother she had to go work for them and that she couldn’t bring us with her. I was 9 & my brother was 8 at the time. Furthermore, no one at that time was assigned or took responsibility for our welfare. For a year we lived on a farm in BFE & the adults forgot we were there. Frequently we were not feed or supervised, which resulted to us eating dog food. I never really lived with my mother after that. At some point most of us were separated from our parents prior to our 18th birthdays. And usually the most common or only form of communication we ever had with our parents was in letters. Which of course were censored.

How about everyone’s favorite topic – ABUSE: “Willful action or threats that result in, or are likely to cause physical, mental or sexual injury or harm that causes or is likely to cause the child’s physical, mental or emotional health to be significantly impaired. Abuse of a child includes acts or omissions”.
“Harm” to a child’s health or welfare can occur when any person: Inflicts or allows to be inflicted upon the child physical, mental or emotional injury.
This also includes:

Leaving a child without adult supervision or appropriate supervision
Inappropriate or excessively harsh disciplinary action that is likely to result in physical, mental or emotional injury.
Commits, or allows to be committed, sexual battery or lewd or lascivious acts against a child.
Allows, encourages, or forces the sexual exploitation of a child which includes allowing, encouraging or forcing a child to engage in sexual battery & performance.
Exploits a child or allows the child to be exploited.
Uses mechanical devices, unreasonable restraints or extended periods of isolation to control a child.
Negligently fails to protect a child in his or her care from inflicted physical, mental, or sexual injury caused by the acts of another (This is what it really boils down to)

Now that I have gone over the skeletal definitions of abuses that we endured, let’s further investigate this thought. Like it or not, Admit it or not – our parents are responsible. What I’m saying is we can’t be selective when seeking justice. The following are several different people’s parents that I know on this site – I’m not going to use any names.

Your farther sexually abused you since you were 4, he allowed other men to sexually abuse you from that point forward – he sexually abused me.

Your farther has a thing for blond, blue-eyed pre-teen boys. Both your parents orchestrated & developed the at least 3 Victor programs that I know of – where us victims were tortured daily.

Your parents put me on silence restriction for 2 months, kept me in solitary confinement for months on end - & deprived me and many others of food.

Your farther loved to beating kids until they passes-out.

Your dad was full of hatred and he took it out on you; he would beat you with just about anything he could lay his hands-on. Half the time he didn’t even need a reason, he beat you for fun. Your beatings would last for hours – sometimes you couldn’t walk or move for days afterwards.

Your parents used to make us perform strip teases for the adults

Your parents decided I was a Mene case, & I had to go through exorcisms’ almost weekly. Your mother smashed my face into a mirror, threw me down flights of stairs, and would drag me around by my hair & so much more……. And all the while my mother just stood there and watched…. Just an emotionless cold blank stare – not once did she every try to intervene.

Our parents by law are supposed to take care of us, protect us & ensure our welfare. They failed! They failed us! They turned their back on us; they chose to look the other way. Our parents were fully aware of what was going on & if they weren’t when we told them we were accused of lying sending us into yet another vicious cycle of abuse. Why didn’t our parents protect us or intervene? Because OMG that would mean excommunication! OMG, I can’t control my child from speaking the truth, OMG this will reflect poorly on me, OMG what will everyone else think of me? We paid the price, so our parents wouldn’t have to give up their precious cult. Not for nothing, but there is no one in this world who will ever be able to convince me that harming or allowing my child to be harmed is acceptable under any circumstance; furthermore, I would probably kill any person who ever laid a hand on her.

So now the obvious question is: “So Gucci, are you going to turn in your mother?”
And my answer is going to be the same as most everyone on here “No!” Most likely for the same reason the rest of you wont. “Can’t hate her for loving her – can’t love her for hating her”. At the end of the day she is my mum. We all have our reasons and agendas, but at the end of the day none of us really want to see justice prevail because that would be too much for any of us to handle. I can’t even begin to fathom the emotional distress that would be involved in such actions. The stakes are too high; it could be very detrimental to our own well-being, not even considering the financial aspect of it all.
“Seeking Justice” is a term that we throw around lightly – but really carries no weight or value, because we ourselves just want to get on with the lives that we have built for ourselves.

The summation of abuse that any of us endured was a direct result of what our parents did and/or allowed to happen. Cumulatively, as a whole, most of our parents are directly/indirectly responsible for any abuse which took place; therefore, the assignment of responsibility lays heavily on their shoulders.

It’s not a pleasant point of view – but it is realistic and honest. So I will leave you with this thought…. “Do we really want Justice or does it just sound good on paper?” The answer is simple – We are not willing to pay the price for Justice, because at the end of the day it’s just too complicated & our past is better off behind us – as we strive to MOVE-ON with our lives!

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from thread on NDN about this
Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 05:34


Claire Borowik -- Is a Liar
Date: Saturday, 23 April 2005, 11:19 pm
Claire Borowik is a liar and I know it to be true. I was there in Buenos Aires when it happened. She not only was involved in 'sharing schedules' but her ex-husband Jose (Cacho) Sabatasso was initiating the young 'teen' girls how to share along with his buddy Tito (Titus) and his wife Charity (Caridad) who were the leaders of the big combo there that was raided by police. Called the 'Heritage' There was a room prepared where Cacho & Tito & others tried out the young girls. I could tell you their names. Tito I believe no longer is with "The Family" but Charity still is in a positon of leadership in the US. Charity even had a child with her lover Fisher and gave the child to Fisher and his wife Lidia as she could not have children. Lidia is the sister of the wife of Mary, wife of Simon, who was a CRO and big leader in the US. There was a lot of sex between adults and teens going on there and Claire Borowik knows all about it and was in on it at the highest level."
Ironsides-If these events were happening just prior to the 1993 raids, that makes their entire defense and refuting the accusations against them, ALL LIES!
It also means that the poster making the claim has a responsibility to go to law enforcement about it, or maybe the poster is just trying to start a new round of rambling. Why is he/she only posting about it only recently, instead of two and a half years ago after the Rick Rodriguez events?

It seems pathetic that of all the other religious cults who have pressed charges and gotten convictions against their predators, The Family's exers' FGA's are the only ones who just ramble on and on and on about it, and have never pressed charges against anybody yet.

My heart goes out to Adonis and Rick Rodriguez. They have gone so far out of their way to get justice for all the SGA's, including themselves, but the FGA's who were the adult witnesses are too gutless and self-centered to press charges.

Through the years I've read all the lamer excuses about eye witnesses being scared of retribution against their own kids still in The Family, and after 2 1/2 years since Rick's events triggered the conditions to build a case for the SGA victims, FGA eye-witnesses are just self-centered and lazy. I don't think anything will ever change my opinion on that, unless FGA's follow up on what the FBI told them.

(reply to this comment)
from hypothetical rant
Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 16:36

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

it sounds like you are assuming that the perps can only be bought to justice via one of they're children reporting them to the police. while this would be the simplest and obvious method for best results in the person 'paying for they're crime/s, it is very rare that criminals get caught in this way.

hypothetically-what would you do if one of your mothers victims did such a thing? I am sure you would support the survivor --I doubt that any would not corroborate his/her testimony of needed or to go as far as defend the parent in a way that would mean essentially calling the person a liar.

and i think the recent victory of the catholic priest abuse s survivors gives me hope that society will not keep quite about childhood abuse. they recognise that abuse can be institutionalised and so any organisation should be aware and put in place measures to ensure its compliance to protecting children's rights.

Thats the thing about cults-they don't abide by the common law, they're tactics are to control everyone in it to use it as a tool-power/safty in numbers. and are also directed to 'follow the leader' even if it is criminal or destructive.

cults are big in trying to become respectable when they crave a respect that they don't deserve/haven't earned. Thats why they can't register as a charity and has to use familycarefoundation to bamboozle/defraud people out of they're money which they think is going to a good cause rather than helping keep the leaders in hiding. and unanswerable for their crimes. what we need is the leaders to come out of hidding aninstaed of sending spokesperson to quibble about the labels and terminology and crying religious intolerance to the people who they try trying to deceive/recruit and who are the most intolerant of anyone who isn't like them/in their group.

there is a bit of karma effect here as if your parents were not so bad on the scale then the less victims there are. And have a lot less reason-or no reason to feel afraid.

This is an extremely intersecting issue (and one Ricky must have struggled with- felt deeply.)
i am sure you are right that nothing can be done about every abuser. but we have certain laws which mean the the worst and the most frequent offenders some day/some how reap they're just(ice) rewards. And I am sure that it would be a great victory if Karen Zerby et al were to be caught and put on trial. But hope is never completely unrewarded. or is it? i guess all the hopers and strivers for justice and peace have only to thank the others that came before and rely that others will exist when they are gone.

my answer at this point in the evening after a couple of glasses of wine is that seeking justice is an ongoing value judgement and speaking out is just on part of it.

(reply to this comment)
from well
Friday, August 17, 2007 - 18:31


I am happy for you that you seem to have enough good reasons to want to protect your parent(s).

You are entirely correct that the children of abusers often seem to jump down the throats of those their parents abused. Sometimes we have the temerity to tell on this site what those parents did.

However, I think your thesis begs the question of what the results of "Seeking Jusitce" are. Maybe you feel those of us who are so rebellious as to "seek justice" are also stupid enough to (a) have no idea of potential results or (b) think we can have the wide-ranging "EVIL" results the Cult sells as the fallout of telling the truth about what they did.

One of these days more of us will have university and other law degrees, and will understand (through that and other channels) that for PETE'S sake, the law has more limits than it has abiliites.

Your and other SG's hand-wringing for your beloved parents is wasted. Nothing will happen to them, ever. EVER!! You hear?? Never, ever, ever. go sleep in peace and have sweet dreams.

And the lesson here, for those who have been silly enough to dream of "Justice" is that you will never have the backup, people will withhold the truth, so if you want to waste your life trying, feel free because the people who have the goods are keeping MUM.
(reply to this comment)

From P.S.
Friday, August 17, 2007, 18:49

Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5(

[removed at author's request](reply to this comment

From Samuel
Saturday, August 18, 2007, 06:44

Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 5 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

I'd like to know:

Are you holding Anna H responsible for something her parents did?

Did you know that Anna H has stopped contributing on this site? If so, isn't it cowardly to launch an attack against her knowing that she will not respond?

What made you decide not to register for this site? Or maybe you are registered, and decided to hide behind a new name this time. If you have something to say, shouldn't you have the guts to say it without worrying about what other people will think?(reply to this comment

From P.S.
Saturday, August 18, 2007, 11:55

No, not holding her responsible, just venting, but I take your point Samuel. I would appreciate it if the Admin could remove my comment.(reply to this comment
Friday, August 17, 2007 - 08:53

This thread is in The Trailer Park 
from vix
Friday, August 17, 2007 - 06:54

Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5Average visitor agreement is 3 out of 5(Agree/Disagree?)

An important topic, gucci, and always relevant here. Thanks for writing it out and giving me something to think about.

I can relate to your general argument and agree with its conclusions. I admit that I am all for 'seeking justice' when it is a nebulous concept but I'm not too keen on what the actual reality of that would be. Simply because while I believe that WS leadership should definitely be prosecuted for what they instigated, orchestrated and repeatedly condoned (along with each and every one of those who directly participated in serious acts of abuse), I also believe that a victory against the cult's leaders would, in many cases, still be a hollow one while those on the grassroots level or in lesser positions of power, many of whom personally participated in varying levels of abusive behaviours and are similarly culpable (though perhaps not to the same extent), are happily moving on with their lives, some of them with second or third families and a new set of vulnerable young children. But those people might be my parents, or yours, and those of my friends. I don't know that i truly feel that some sense of justice having prevailed is worth the reality of what that retribution would entail. Add to that, of course, the very sad fact that justice would never bring back those who have paid the ultimate price for their suffering, nor heal the scars of those of us who remain.

It's a very conflicted area for me, and my opinion changes as my general outlook on life fluctuates and different aspects become more or less important to me. I fully accept that others might have very different opinions and motivations to mine, and I acknowledge that perhaps as someone who didn't suffer all that much in TF (in the way of direct abuse, that is), i don't feel the same urgency in this respect as others. I continue to be full of admiration for those who are working on initiatives to bring the cult leadership to reckoning, but I am quite sure that this will never be a priority for me. I think that were i to commit myself to any related endeavour, it would be focused either on raising academic awareness, or on working toward some form of dialogue with the cult at grassroots level, providing better opportunities and a link to the outside world for third generation children. But it's a catch-22 because i know full well that as long as the leadership hierarchy exists, anything that can be done on grassroots level will be severely limited.

My current position is that I will live my life as if there is little of substance to be done (because that is the most realistic option for me personally, and one that affords me the most peace of mind), without going so far as to completely absolve myself of responsibility towards those of my peers whose experiences demand recompense, as well as those still in the cult (including my seven siblings and two nieces). It's a difficult balance to strike. Perhaps that is why my general inclination on this issue is 'out of sight, out of mind'.

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