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from conan Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 11:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you may be slightly overreacting, and overreaching with your article and the direction its heading. If you were to stop and think about it for a second, I believe you’d quickly realize that ex-members buying up guns and going on an all out killing spree is clearly a legitimate option that could easily be carried out. Uh, yeah, NOT! First of all, we’re not a cult and as such are free to think for ourselves, and so, should the majority of the people on here vote to carry out mass-murder, (which is clearly not the case and I don’t think it ever will be) the realistic chance of that happening is slim to none. However, should WS and its affiliates be singled out, sued, and forced to pay large sums of money to those they wronged while publicly admitting to the world that children in the COG and TFI were sexually, physically, and emotionally abused repeatedly would do some irreparable damage to TF at large and would probably result in the collapse of any recognizable infrastructure and as such, TF as we know it would likely cease to exist. That’s the reason that I personally voted for the second option, as I felt that it would have the longest lasting and permanent effect. I feel for you and your sister who were traumatized by a raid, but seriously, are you trying to say that the rest of us haven’t been emotionally scarred for life because of the traumatic experiences we were involved in while in the cult? I’m not trying to make light of what you went through by any means, I’m merely trying to show you the other side of the spectrum as I fear you are slightly biased on your interpretation of the posted poll. Clearly, the individual who thought of and posted the poll was trying to find various options to stir the think tank as well as to take up some space. The ‘destroy by any means necessary’ line has to be taken for what it is and not as a legitimate threat against family members in general. I still have my parents and several siblings in the cult and would love nothing more than to see the group ended so that my younger siblings can grow up in the real world where they are free to think for themselves etc. I voted for option 2 but am in favor of seeing TF ended by ‘any means necessary’ that doesn’t involve homicidal mania and mass murder. We don’t want the innocent (children) of the cult to be punished, merely to see those responsible for past and present atrocities to be held accountable. If that turns into the end of the cult as a whole, I doubt there are many if any ex-members of any age or status that would shed a tear for the loss of this particular cult! (reply to this comment)

from Lance Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 12:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I believe you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone on this site who believes that family homes should be raided and kids should be torn from their families. Many of us lived through such raids and witnessed the aftermath; it is in fact an official stance of this site -its administrators and editors- that we do not condone violence as a means to an end. I know I speak for more people then myself when I say that this includes going after innocent individuals, their children, and their homes. Of course the family uses the threat of persecution as a form of mind control, so they would like nothing better then to have all their members trembling with fear, worrying that the authorities are going to kick down their doors and tear them away from their loved ones. (reply to this comment)

From maeva Thursday, July 07, 2005, 10:16 (Agree/Disagree?) I realise its no ones gaul to purpusly hurt F members. But the authorities raiding homes would never have qualified thier operations as being violent. Anyhow I guess what disturbed me was the the statement "destroying the family by any means necessary". My article was not posted intirely (I must have made a mistake while posting it). What is funny tho is that the only person going in my direction which would be one of dialogue and prevention didn't want to "ruin his reputation". Why is that?(reply to this comment)

From ErikMagnusLehnsher Saturday, July 09, 2005, 18:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Last time I checked, only @ 32% favored option 1. Polls are often tricky indicators because so much has to do with how the question was phrased. Personally, I thought this was an interersting poll. I would guess that of the 32% who favored option 1, many would not have selected it if it had specifically listed violence towards TFI members or having kids traumatized as their Homes were raided. But, hell, I selected option 2 so what do I know? :)(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, July 08, 2005, 16:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry you were disturbed by the "destroy the Family by any means necessary". When formulating the options for this poll I deliberately listed options on both extremes. While my personal choice would fall along the lines of option 2 (Singling out WS [...] and known abusers) my intent was to learn how many voters where inclined to the extremes. In my personal opinion--and I have said this many times before--attempting to destroy the Family is a futile venture. I would challenge any one person, whether in or out of the Family, to present a clear and practical agenda for destroying the Family. So far, the only method I have seeen that has had any impact on the Family's demise is that of letting the truth speak for itself, letting current members come to their own conclusions, and giving Family leadership enough rope to (figuratively) hang itself with.(reply to this comment)

from Solo Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 10:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually I agree with Maeva in this respect I have friends and Family in the Family and I wouldn't want anything to happen to them. Even though I think most of the Family doctrine is deranged at best I wouldn't want my mom or brothers to be hurt in any way I think if we have a problem with the family we have a problem with the leadership not with the memebers who's only crime is being trusting and believing when someone says they speak for God. I know that I myself for awhile was very "On fire" so to speak and would have defended the family at all costs even though I wasn't sure of it myself. Although I agree that something should be done, going after the family as a whole ends up hurting the little people more than the leadership. Also you know how it is there, if there is "persecution" they take this as a sign that they are doing the right thing, and it unites them more then it scatters them. The truth is that little by little the Family is disintegrating they have almost no converts and a steady stream of people leaving so in my case I believe that the best thing to do would be to wait for them to die of their own accord. Now I realize this is a very passive stance and before all you exmembers get on my case I will have you know that just because I have a passive stance it does not necessarily mean that I don't want the family to end. The fact is that just by being there and visiting homes and showing family members that you can Survive on the outside you actually do more harm than if you get in their faces and in a one on one argument. I for one have helped at least 8 people leave the family and have showed them how it can be I have not posted my name for obvious reasons cause it could damage my "Reputation" so to speak. But if I learned one thing in the family it is that a rotten apple in the barrel can do a lot more damage than one thrown at the barrel regardless of the force. (reply to this comment)

From Card, Master Card Wednesday, July 06, 2005, 14:46 (Agree/Disagree?) High-pressure pneumatic cannon = $500 Liquid Nitrogen to freeze apple = $50 Barrel of Apples = $25 Getting arrested for disturbing the peace while disproving your analogy = Priceless (reply to this comment)

From Solo Wednesday, July 06, 2005, 10:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok why is there a comment with my name on it?? I had nothing to do with that for the record I have a much more passive stance than that whoever is trying to frame me can die(reply to this comment)

From vixen Wednesday, July 06, 2005, 10:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Uhm, only one person can use a registered nickname on this site, so if indeed someone did try to 'frame you', they would have had to have done it on your PC while you were logged in (unless you've told people your password). If you want your identity to remain secret you might want to edit your profile if you have one. Also, if you want to make an anonymous comment, write up your comment first, and THEN change the name in the box at the top, THEN post it. :-)(reply to this comment)

From Solo Wednesday, July 06, 2005, 11:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Nah I have told people my password it really isn't a secret and I know who it is now it is a friend I was chatting with and he did it by accident and yes I know you can post anonymously just I have never needed to cause I don't care if people know who I am(reply to this comment)

From Lance Wednesday, July 06, 2005, 11:58 (Agree/Disagree?) You really shouldn't give out your password to anyone, regardless of whether or not you consider them a friend.(reply to this comment)

From Solo Wednesday, July 06, 2005, 14:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah actually I will have to change my password it is not really that I gave it out I wasn't clear there it is just that anyone who knows me can guess it easily and I told some people that and I guess they tried and the guy who did it was such a punk he was chattign with me at the time and he was like look what you posted. Anyways to hell with it I will leave it at that.(reply to this comment)

from GoldenMic Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 19:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, for the sake of the "innocent", it makes sense to use an approach that offers hope and a reason to pursue positive change. One non-profit agency appears to be trying to move in this direction, offering to define a universal set of standards for children's rights, and willing to objectively identify those cults that are willing to be monitored and vetted, and who are at least currently accountable to laws of humanity and decency, while also warning and censuring those that are out of compliance. This would allow a cult to change, and get due credit for their change. However, it is unknown if any cult will truly submit itself to such an honest process, since such honesty and freedom might destroy the cult's ability to control their people, assuming they are truly a cult and not a more benign "new religious movement". Meanwhile, such a non-aggressive stance seems completely inadequate in terms of justice for survivors, particularly for those of us who are the unwilling, un-asked second-generation victims of our own parents who joined a cult, and after we freed ourselves. I think its hard to ask that justice go unmet for the sake of a bunch of nitwits who haven't figured out the stupidity and damage of their choices. I don't say this lightly, since my own brother and his wife, sister and her husband, and about 25 nephews and neices are still in the cult I come from. However, the truth is, its very hard for me to feel that their right to be unharmed by having to face the truth of their fiendish lifestyle is equal to the victims right to seek justice. This is a difficult issue, and invariably takes one back to the initial question; would the leadership allow the people to become more decent and free, justifying a more positive approach, or would they simply continue to engage in lies and character assassination, blaming others and excusing themselves, making any accommodation impossible? (reply to this comment)

From Do Something! Thursday, July 07, 2005, 06:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I think we should all realize that most people still in TF are victims, victims that will be hurt sooner or later. Every victim, whether or not they've left the cult yet will get hurt in the long run, why not it be sooner than later? The longer the cult operates around the world, the bigger the victim count will be in the end. Why should we feel bad about the countless people who will be hurt in the process of taking down TF when we weren’t the ones who made them victims in the first place? They will be hurt no matter what, and the longer they stay in the cult, the stronger the hurt will be. I say help out in every way possible (excluding the obvious violence that doesn’t help) to make sure TF ceases to exist, that way we can make sure no more people are victimized, ever! (reply to this comment)

From Sit back and Enjoy the ride Thursday, July 07, 2005, 09:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Well I agree with you in that most people in the family are victims but I don't think breaking up the cult or forcing them to leave the cult will necessarily help. The cult is like a bad relationship and the people in like stupid starry eyed dreamers who go in with all their dreams waiting to be fulfilled. Thing is if you break it up at the beggining they will blame you and always wonder what it would have been like if they could have continued there. Whereas if they leave of their own accord they are more likely to stay out and say "The Family?? F**k em". Well I mean that is just my stance to each his own. But I feel like forcibly breaking them up would be a mistake. If there was a way to get the leaders to apologize at the threat of being jailed to their cult members and explain to them that they were full of s**t then that would be beauty and perfection. Like in Japan the people fought loyally alongside their emperor until the Americans made him go on TV and say to the entire public that he wasn't a God. That is why the rebellion truly died not because of the bomb in fact if it hadn't been for that I believe they would be a crushed people but still rebellious like the Iraqis. I mean it is just a pipe dream I know but hey I can dream if I want.(reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Thursday, July 07, 2005, 15:17 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you have made an excellent point here. It may be entirely true that the only sure and widespread change would occur if and when the leadership agreed to and supported that change, which they will probably only do under the most severe duress, or if they have any decency. Thanks for that point about the emperor in WW2, it was an excellent and legitimate example, and got me thinking.(reply to this comment)

From Big Sister Friday, July 08, 2005, 09:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Small point but...it was Japan, 1945. So the emperor used the radio, not TV, to broadcast his message: "I am not a god."(reply to this comment)

From Sit back and Enjoy the ride Friday, July 08, 2005, 09:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry was just writing something quick and wasn't really thinking, forgot about that it was the radio my Bad big sister.(reply to this comment)

From roxal Thursday, July 07, 2005, 17:35 (Agree/Disagree?) “Severe duress”, that is exactly what we need to try and accomplish. We need to get it to the point where Zerby and Peter feel so severely threatened by all the bad publicity and legal implications that they themselves decide to give in and admit to all their blind followers that they in fact are not god’s and that people should start to find their own thoughts, their own paths in life. Because, after all, TF members’ minds are just molded to those of Zerby and Peter, so until they see that Zerby and Peter want them to change, then who knows how long this will go on. Yes this is a far fetched dream, but who knows, maybe that sick f*&#@s could have some decency left in her and one day decide to “repent”.(reply to this comment)

From neez Thursday, July 07, 2005, 23:45 (Agree/Disagree?) "maybe that sick f*&#@s could have some decency left in her and one day decide to 'repent'. " That's not going to happen.(reply to this comment)

From true! Friday, July 08, 2005, 09:06 (Agree/Disagree?) What needs to happen is that each FM becomes aware of Karen and Peter's lies, distortions and cover ups etc.. They need to cut the apron strings. Once they loose respect for them, things will fall into place. (reply to this comment)

From Sit back and Enjoy the ride Friday, July 08, 2005, 06:44 (Agree/Disagree?) True maybe she won't repent but we can make it look like she does if we threaten her enough. See the thing is that we could probably if we found them charge them with charitable fraud due to the fact that their entire income comes from that and they have enforced the tithe. And they would get a major fine if not prison as well as getting their accounts frozen. If that happened they would get desperate and then would be the time to force them to tell everyone that they are full of it, in fact we could make it a condition to their release again this is all nice to dream about cause we would have to find them and apparently no one can. Whatever for now I am content to sit back and wait for them to wither and die.(reply to this comment)