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from colden Friday, December 26, 2008 - 21:10 (Agree/Disagree?)  You helped lost souls? you were the lost souls! the brainwashed leading the dissolutioned following the pervert. To pretend the numder of people you got to repeat 6 little words affects that score in any way is a grotesque act of wilful blindness and has no place on the road to redemtion.  (reply to this comment)

from Dizziet Friday, July 25, 2008 - 19:55 (Agree/Disagree?) It has been mention that there is no rationalization for joining/remaining in TF, or something to that effect. I know my parent's stories and I find I have a somewhat less harsh attitude towards them, primarily my mother, than seems the norm in this forum. When my mother joined she was depressed, very depressed. What she saw in the early family homes was purpose, love, and acceptance. I've seen the impact of severe depression on people and it makes her choice far easier to understand. Whilst in TF (and ever since) she gave me her unconditional love. Sure I was sometimes punished unjustifiably but not often and not to extremes (I think I resent the psychologically damaging doctrines more). She was in a better position to protect me than many kids parents as she was usually in leadership. She tried very hard not to demonstrate favoritism but I knew how she felt and that kind of knowledge can be a great buffer. In the end our well being was a more important motive to her than her beliefs and that means something to me. When, due to circumstance, she interacted with non TF home-schoolers and she saw that their children were getting a far better eduction she started to think about leaving. When the abuse of my younger brothers was stepped up because my parents were no longer leaders of the home they were in she couldn't take it any more and did leave. I'm not saying I've suffered no ill affects. As I go on issues caused by my upbringing come into play and their strength often surprises me. I find their are many things that I resent. However, I suspect that whatever the circumstances of your children's upbringing, if you demonstrated to them that you loved them, that you felt their pain when they were hurt, and that you would do what was in your power to alleviate it then you provided for your children's most important psychological needs. (reply to this comment)

from murasaki Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 01:49 (Agree/Disagree?) The short answer is no. I used to be able to sympathize with FGs and excused my own parents for the things that happened in my past by saying that they sincerely thought they were doing what they thought was the right thing to do. My thoughts and feelings have changed dramatically since becoming a parent myself. I do not understand how a parent can deny the inborn instinct to comfort a child who is obviously in distress. How can a loving parent deny a child unconditional love and support? How can a loving parent force an extreme and highly demanding lifestyle on a child without giving them the choice of anything else? How can a loving parent prevent a child from discovering who they truly are because they want to mold them into a standardized ideal? I can only come to the conclusion that many FGs were very selfish, choosing to put their own sense of spiritual fulfillment over the needs of their children. I know many FGs hold on to the famous "Romans 8:28" when it comes to the aftermath of years of neglect and abuse when it comes to their children. "All things work together for good to those who love God", but where does that leave them if "he that loveth not his brother (children) whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen"? What about "Woe unto him, through whom (offenses) come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Or "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me"? In reality the Family has very little to show for its years of sacrifice and proselytizing. "By their fruits ye shall know them", and I believe that the bad fruits far outweigh the good. Your kids are lucky that they have a father who is making an effort to understand and support them, however late it may be in coming. (reply to this comment)

from sar Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 02:32 (Agree/Disagree?) "mistakes" or "crimes"? (reply to this comment)

from /. Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 23:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Your view is not extreme.  Your view is a refreshingly humane, urbane view that seems not to be enslaved to self-justification. I am a 35-year old SG who escaped when I was a minor after being physically, sexually and psychologically abused and exploited from the youngest age.  I appreciate the humanity of those who recognize the toll that can take on a child.  I am skeptical of the humanity of those who cannot; but I discount entirely the justifications of those who cannot PLUS were involved in the system that perpetrated it. I try to live day to day in the "real" world.  It is difficult.  The weapons I was given were aimed against myself.  Sometimes I am amazed I am stil here. Thank you for not being callous.   (reply to this comment)

from Phoenixkidd Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 15:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Souls?? What Souls? I remember coming home one day and saying we got 178 souls saved in the park. Those Japanese didn't know what they were doing, they just said those words because a cute blond haired kid asked them to repeat what he was saying. I know you are honestly questioning this in the end, but deep down you know the answer and just don't want to admit to yourself it was all a waste, there is no question of balancing one good against another. It was all brainwashing in the first place. HOWEVER it is never too late to quit and start over, the human mind is the most resiliant force in the world, you can still enjoy life or what's left of it, and work for your nearer future. DO NOT GIVE UP. just have fun, and enjoy. (reply to this comment)

From figaro Saturday, July 05, 2008, 20:32 (Agree/Disagree?) UUMM... did you even read his post? "but deep down you know the answer and just don't want to admit to yourself it was all a waste, there is no question of balancing one good against another." That's EXACTLY what he just said!(reply to this comment)

from mistakes? Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 10:13 (Agree/Disagree?) TF made it VERY clear how adults should treat children. The abuse of a generation of children was no mistake. it was systematic from the top down. (reply to this comment)

from Falcon Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 22:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Here's a thought: instead of the FGs sitting in their anonymous chatroom trying to justify themselves and their crimes, after settling back into the cushy lifestyle that they decried for X amount of years and never gave their children the tools to survive in, perhaps instead they should be paying a 10% monthly "tithe" of their "slave of mammon" incomes into a fund to help all the children who they directly or indirectly harmed through their zombified adherence to a pedophilic psychopath. A practical act of restitution would be a much stronger sign of true contrition as opposed to their present useless redundant ramblings about 'ends justifying means', while they disappear into society and stick their proverbial heads in the sand. (reply to this comment)

from DeeJay Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 21:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not entirely sure how to react to this one. I have experienced the above mentioned scenario with my own parents. My parents have both left and apologised to me for what happened to me as a result of their decisions. On the one hand, they are my parents and I have to love/accept them for that. At times I almost feel sympathetic towards them. They were young, stupid and made some pretty big mistakes. On the other, I find it incredibly difficult to fathom that the in society I am experiencing now, and the society that they grew up in, that anyone could come to the decision that joining such an obviously phony cult would be a good thing. I grew up in it and even at 16 I felt it was pretty transparent. They were inconsistent, never admitted fault and dismissed any evidence to the contrary. Their actions were a far cry from what they preached and from the perspective I hold now, what they preached was dubious at best. It's one thing to sacrifice one's self for what one believes, but when confronted with the obvious abuse of your/their own children, it's hard to just forgive the inaction that you/they employed for so long. If your/their own child being beaten, ostracised, molested, demeaned and humiliated for no other reason than some "shepherd" saw the "devil" in him/her isn't a wake up call, I don't know what is. Parental responsibility should be stronger than that. YOUR FAMILY AND CHILDREN SHOULD ALWAYS TAKE PRIORITY OVER WHAT OTHERS TELL YOU TO DO! For me, this is the sticking point. This I find impossible to forgive. There is no burying the hatchet. They saw, they knew and they allowed. A couple years? Maybe that would have been fine. My entire childhood? No way. THERE'S NO WAY THAT SOMEONE IS THAT BLIND FOR THAT LONG UNLESS THEY ARE CHOOSING TO BE. At least that's the way I feel about it. I will say that I'm glad you see the errors of your ways, and it's good to see that you're at least trying to tend to the wounds that your past actions have inflicted. You have to know though that they will never go away completely. There is no band-aid or cure for an abused and neglected childhood. We carry the scars and we carry them forever. What's more, IT WASN'T OUR CHOICE! As for my parents, they will always have my love, but not my sympathy nor compassion. I do alright for myself, they struggle financially. I could never take it upon myself to help them out of it. They made choices, now they have to face up to them. I was their responsiblity and they bailed on me. In doing so they have absolved me of any responsibility or sympathy towards them. I am physically incapable of it. I think that perhaps in your guilt you may have posted here thinking that in displaying your remorse you might receive some sympathy or closure. If so, you need to get it from your own children. I seriously doubt you will find it here. I also completely agree with the comment below. Very few if any "souls" were ever saved. Most of the time "a soul" consisted of someone repeating a prayer in the hopes of getting rid of the pesky people "witnessing" to them. I know, I did it thousands of times. I'm not a christian, but read your bible. I do remember that somewhere it does say that it would be better for a man to burn for a hundred years in hell than for him to allow harm to come to one of his little lambs. I don't have time to look it up, but I know it's there. In short, it wouldn't have mattered if 100 millions "souls were saved". Even according to the bible, you don't let harm come to one of your children, plain and simple. (reply to this comment)

From Mr Brownlow Thursday, July 03, 2008, 05:18 (Agree/Disagree?) My children didn't spend all their childhood in the cult and most of the them have forgiven me and tried to get on with their lives. And there were also important issues not related directly to the cult. I can honestly say I didn't post here expecting sympathy. Out of frustration, perhaps. I haven't been able to have a serious discussion of the subject with FGs. Nor was I seeking closure. There is no closure. I don't believe there ever will be. Because I can't turn the clock back or remedy the situation completely. It will always be a question of "If only..." I'd be a liar if I said I never felt sorry for myself. There must be moments when I do. After all, I am human. But living in a poor country has a strong chastening effect. There are people all around me who have the most appalling lives. My own post-F wife had an upbringing as horrendous as anything the F could conjure up. Violent alcoholic father, hand-to-mouth existence, times spent sleeping rough, rape at 14, teenage pregnancy. And her youngest sibling was raped by her step-father for years. That sort of the thing is commonplace. The difference from the F. is that poverty is the biggest single contributing factor. So there is plenty to do to help others. But the harm done in the past cannot be undone. (reply to this comment)

From DeeJay Thursday, July 03, 2008, 21:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Look Mr. Brownlow, I don't want to come down too harshly or hostile, but then what is there to discuss? If your children didn't spend their entire childhoods in the cult, then perhaps they're not as damaged as some of us. If you weren't in long enough to watch your child's 0-18 years in the cult, then perhaps you lack some of the perspective that some of us do. Of course life consists of many issues and the cult is just one of them, albeit a pretty big one. If they've forgiven you and moved on, great. But what really did you expect any of us to say? If you want to discuss the redundancies of some ex-cult FG's, you're right on. It's a bullshit argument and maybe some of them are still choosing to hang onto denial issues rather than face the shame. There is and never has been anything to justify any of the family's actions since the beginning. In my eyes, the leadership may have been the perpetrators, but so so so so so so many grown adults stood by and did nothing while these things happened to us. In being accessories to the crime they too have to share in the responsiblity and guilt. If only? Yes, there are a lot of them. If only my parents hadn't been stupid enough to listen to a drunk, pedophiling maniac maybe I would have relatives that actually care about me. Maybe I would've learned something in school instead of reading "Life with Grandpa" teaching me not to be a "Bent Nail" and that I should kill mosquitoes because they are the devil's messengers. Now I have to compete with people 10 years younger than me who "surprise, surprise" know more than I do. I have to live my life 10 years behind. If only, maybe people wouldn't think I was so weird for sometimes thinking there has to be meaning in every aspect of life. Maybe I would have stories to joke around with my friends that don't have to do with being fondled, groped, beaten or sentenced to hard labor....."I remember, when I was 8 years old. Uncle David pulled down my pants...... and then beat me 200 times while telling me to thank the lord, because I didn't do a good job sweeping the dining room floor. Yeah. Ha. That was hilarious!" If only, maybe I would actually speak my own native language. I mean do you really want to go there. This list could literally go on page after page. As for your post-cult wife. It is a tragedy. Her father and step-father sound like they both deserve whatever punishment someone can think up for them, and she deserves justice. But the presence of another crime does not in a million years absolve one of guilt. "The cult abused children." "So do other people." "Really, then I guess it's okay." We want some justice and we will not forget. The argument that what's done is done and let's move on is tired and indefensible. The end of the war in Iraq didn't mean they stopped looking for Saddam. The fact that 9/11 happened so long ago doesn't mean we should just let Osama run free wherever he pleases. The fact that the Holocaust is over doesn't mean that those responsible should not be held accountable for their crimes and punished. The past is the past but it lives on in the struggles we face everyday as SGs. If anyone was innocent, we were. Now, we work to pay off the debts of the FGswith our lives. What about the debts owed to us? You may feel sorry for yourself in thinking that you made a bad decision and now must pay for it. But what is that supposed to mean to someone who didn't make the decision and still has to pay for it? I work 60 hour work weeks. I try to study. I owe it to myself. If I mess up and have nothing to spend at age 60, I have no-one to blame but myself. I have to ask, "Why should I feel anything for you?" And no, poverty may be a factor, but it is far from the biggest. Sick, sadistic and egotistical tendencies along with an inability to see or admit fault or error, intolerance of ideas, being incapable of remorse, cultish zeal turned obsession, these are just a few. It's far too patronizing and gives an inaccurate picture to say that poverty was the biggest trial we faced in the cult. Sorry.(reply to this comment)

From I Agree Wednesday, July 02, 2008, 22:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I Timothy 5:8,  "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (reply to this comment)

From DeeJay Thursday, July 03, 2008, 22:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Not the one I was thinking of, but thanks. Just as good.(reply to this comment)

From Lithium Friday, July 04, 2008, 02:59 (Agree/Disagree?) "And if anyone shall offend one of these little ones in My Name, it were better for him that a millstone be hung about his neck and he be thrown into the sea." That the one?(reply to this comment)

From DeeJay Friday, July 04, 2008, 23:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, thank you. I guess I got it wrong. It was a milestone around the neck, not burning in hell. Ha. I mean if they say they follow the bible, at least follow it all the way and admit it when they're being fucking hypocrites. Enough said.(reply to this comment)

from Justify? End? Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 20:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Do you honestly think souls were saved? (reply to this comment)

From Mr Brownlow Thursday, July 03, 2008, 05:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I suppose some must have been but certainly not the millions they claim. But as I'm no longer a practicing Christian it's a moot point. It's also a major bone of contention because many FGs cling to that. Can good come from evil? I don't believe so.(reply to this comment)

From afflick Friday, July 04, 2008, 08:40 (Agree/Disagree?) "I suppose some [souls] must have been [saved]...but...I'm no longer a practicing Christian." This is an interesting statement.  I am also no longer a Christian and losing my belief in the saving of souls was one of the very first things to go.  I was still working out my religious belief system when the idea of a prayer that allows an intangible part of a falible human to assend to immortality started to seem really disingenous. Also, something like "saving souls" is inherently difficult to measure and therefore very convenient in justifying abuse.  It goes something like this: 1) Saving souls is the most important goal in our earthly life. 2) It is impossible to measure such a thing, so therefore whatever statistics one wishes to derive are accepted. 3) Voices coming forward with tales of abuses are demeaned and negated. Therefore: A large measure of the most important thing (saved souls) can be claimed even if such goals came at the expense of a lesser important thing (healthy, abuse-free childhoods).  Thus, absolved guilt. So then, if you do not believe in Christianity and that Jesus saves souls, then why suppose some souls were saved in The Family?  (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Thursday, July 03, 2008, 22:19 (Agree/Disagree?) I think so, we certainly did. That was Bergs thing, that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Well, I think we proved that wrong a hundred times over. We are proof that we can overcome any obstacle in our paths. That no matter what they did to us we managed to survive. The things they did to some of us certainly were evil. Some of us have fallen by the wayside and that is really unfortunate. But so many of us have made it and made it brilliantly. (reply to this comment)

from Mr Brownlow Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:52 (Agree/Disagree?) My apologies to those who were upset by my remarks. I realize that to some it may just seem like pouring salt in the wound. My thanks to those who responded to the points I raised. Many of the people who post on the Exer boards are still Christians. That may have a lot to do with their take on things. I have read their reminiscences about their time in the F., some have good memories. I was obviously very enthusiastic during my early time in the F. too. It was a very different, exciting experience. But it was colored, tainted, by what came latter. I think that is the crux of the matter for me. I feel shame at ever having joined and sorrow for having contributed to the all the subsequent suffering. So much was lost that can never be regained. I'm not sure if I have expressed my thoughts properly. It is a very emotional subject for me. (reply to this comment)

From Well..... Wednesday, July 02, 2008, 12:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Emotional subject? You've got emotions? I haven't much of that stuff left. Just a nice big void. Which explains why I'm insensitive enough to say, I don't give a shit how much you hurt now. I don't give a shit about your shame or sorrow. Unless you're paying for my meds, my shrink, or my education, I'm sorry you're not being put to good use such as target practice. Pouring salt in the wound? There is no wound. Just a big callous spot. No shame, only hate. No sorrow, only anger. Everything about TF was an abomination from the get-go and you were just too stupid to see it. The collective stupidity of your sort tortured my sort. I don't think you feel responsible for your part, and I don't think you feel truly sorry. I'm just not feeling it. That's my take. Feel free to be upset by my remarks. (reply to this comment)

From Mr Brownlow Wednesday, July 02, 2008, 12:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not upset. I knew what I was letting myself in for by posting here. But there is just so much pain that I don't see reflected on the FG boards. If it's any consolation to you, over the years I have paid as much as I am able for medication, therapy and education for my kids. I still weep for them even though their suffering may not have been as great as many of their peers. I am also stuck in a poor country, unable to return to my own because of my age and lack of money, do not own a house, do a boring job and have no pension to look forward to. That is my punishment. It is a life sentence but not a death sentence.(reply to this comment)

from cheeks Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:14 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't believe in brain-washing. I read everything that the Family wrote up until a year or two before I left, when I was twenty, as frankly it simply got too bizarre to sit through. There were things that I never believed. When I was eight and re-read letters that were read to me as a child like the Girl who wouldn't, the comments and the letters about the woman who was stabbed to death in her apartment right after she had a baby. All SGA's who left grew up submersed in the Family's doctrines and somehow we managed to see through it, many of us for our whole lives. If I could see it as a child you could have seen it as an adult. You chose, like my parents chose, to ignore it to wrap it in a bundle of faith and give it to God. You chose not to trust your instincts, like the man on the chimney who was waiting for God to save him when there was a boat right next to him. No the end did not justify the mistakes. We are the end. We were your legacy and you saw what was done to us and chose to ignore it. In the end it rests with you, at the end of the day you have to look yourself in the mirror and say to yourself did the end justify the mistakes? Because only you are responsible for your decisions not Berg, not the Shepherds, not the doctrines or what you believed to be the word of God, You. (reply to this comment)

From Fish Wednesday, July 02, 2008, 19:53 (Agree/Disagree?) My feelings precisely.(reply to this comment)

From sar Friday, July 04, 2008, 13:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Mine too.(reply to this comment)

from nicole Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:53 (Agree/Disagree?) I doubt any "souls" that were "saved" were actually "saved". If anything, people became more lost than they were before, not to mention the stripping of identities of not only the joiners, but their children. You're coming from a christian (?) perspective which most of us don't maintain, but even so, I would say that most people the cult would like to claim as having "saved" later came to the conclusion that the interaction -- however long or short -- was meaningless (at best) and did nothing to better their lives. Granted, there are a few folks who got pulled out of the gutter, or at least claim so in their "testimonies". But, based on the amount of damage they ended inflicting on our generation, they probably would have been better off staying in said gutter or being "saved" by getting their act together instead of perpetuating their freeloading tendencies with a group that justified it as "living-by-faith". So, to sum it up, if NO souls were saved and plenty were damaged, I don't even see how the "saved-soul" excuse should even BE one. (reply to this comment)

from InnerEcho Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:38 (Agree/Disagree?) If you still believe in the Bible, reference Luke 17:2 and Matthew 18:6. If you don't. Look at the facts. What was your ends? Salvation? What was "salvation"? A two cent prayer from a random pedestrian, to make that freezing five year old "missionary" slave child's day just a little better. That's your "saved" soul. A couple tracts in the rubbish bin, and a few minutes hiding in the corner store to avoid the damp. I couple fictional "souls" that slave child reported, to avoid torture and ridicule and harsh discipline and lengthy indoctrination sessions. That's your ends. What a joke. (reply to this comment)

from Sharon Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:11 (Agree/Disagree?) What a retarded and insensitive question. (reply to this comment)

from placebo Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 10:03 (Agree/Disagree?) did jobs for Germans justify the displacement and killing of jews? (reply to this comment)

from Samuel Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 09:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Would 10,000 souls saved justify the means of abusing one child? I didn't want to respond at first, but seeing as how Haunted has responded, I feel better about it now.  My answer: No! For one thing, members of The Family could have done a lot more good had they joined a charity such as the Peace Corps, or World Vision.  Despite The Family's claims, the cult did little to make an impact on the world, and much of the impact that they had was bad.  What can you expect?  They abused the first generation of children! For another thing: Of the souls that were saved, how many of them ended up joining The Family?  Because in that case, I honestly think they would have been better off if someone else had lead them to Christ, as they wouldn't be in a cult now.  And they wouldn't be getting all kinds of confused ideas about Christian Theology which The Family recieves in prohecy because they know they will never be able to back them up with scripture.    (reply to this comment)

from Haunted Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 08:42 (Agree/Disagree?) This is a really tough question to ask us to be honest. Most SG's (esp the younger ones) can barely discuss this among themselves much less with FG's with an open mind. As your children and now parents ourselves, NO - the end DID NOT justify the 'means'. Nothing will EVER justify the exploitation and abuse of children. It's very hard for our parents to come to terms with this fact - my mother has and has appoligised and we love her and forgive her but especially since very few of us still believe in God, 'saving lost souls' is practically a slap in the face as an excuse for the suffering and death that has been the direct result of the abuse we suffered as children. (reply to this comment)