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Getting Out : Creeps
Possible FFing in Romania? | from dudu - Wednesday, March 17, 2004
accessed 6589 times I am a journalist working on a COG-related series of articles. I was alerted to a possible child abuse/FFing case in the area I live in and went to talk some people involved in this case. Me and a friend of mine met the Crossmans, Family members in a town near my city. They tried to fool us into judging them by their "good fruit" and threatened me that unless I dropped the case God's anger and their lawyers would be upon us. They also gave us a large dossier about their humanitarian work and other PR stuff.
However, we were also able to discover their bad fruit. One local 13 year-old boy from an orphanage told us that he had been offered by an adult person (Family member) to have sex with one of his daughters. The accusation was confirmed the next day when the boy was confronted by the orphanage psychologist. This accusation comes as no surprise, as two of the minor girls living in Family member Tim Crossman's house (possibly his daughters) aged 15 and 17 are known to have had sexual relations with several men and boys, a fact that is denied by Tim Crossman and his wife, Renee.
One fact which was striking to me is that we sat in the Crossman’s living room and talked about accusations of child abuse and FFing and meanwhile, all their children, including the youngest, aged 4, were present. At one moment, when their daughter, aged 15, returned from her "evening walk", they even invited her to take a seat and listen to us about how a boy branded her 17 year-old sister a "blow-job champion".
When we turned to local authorities for support, they reacted strangely, by not helping us in any way, and even by trying to mislead us. Police found out there were two adults and five children living in the house, one of which had lost his papers; but when we visited them, there were three adults and five children, of which one adult and one child were not on the list they gave the Police. A couple of days later they declared the two unidentified persons as their oldest boy and his fiancé.
As I knew close to nothing about COG in the beginning I did a lot of reading on Sam Ajemian’s site, and later, in an e-mail, he recommended that I post an article on this site.
So, if you have any information about Timothy and Renee Crossman ("Tabitha" on thefamily.org), FCF actions in Romania, or any other Family-related activity in Romania, please reply to this article or contact me at dudumail99@yahoo.com.
Thank you,
Dudu |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from madmax
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 13:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
this is an amazing prank!
I am just trying to figure out who is more stupid, those that are trying to respond to it as factual, or the one trying to pull it off.
M.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Nancy
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 17:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who the hell gave the comment below a thumbs up? Was that you JW? What is this world coming to?
(reply to this comment)
|  From JohnnieWalker
Tuesday, April 27, 2004, 18:45
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Nancy, Nancy. How very amusing. Glad to know I was on your mind again.
It seems quite obvious that your idea of me seems to be based on too little fact and too much assumption.
No, I did not rate the comment below. I haven't even read it. My life has been far too active recently to even take more than a brief weekly glance at the contents of this site. Had your comment not been brought to my attention through a third party, it would most likely have passed through the top 20 list without my notice.
I'll tell you what: You know how to get my phone number through mutual friends. Why don't you call me collect and you can throw all of your questions, accusations, and assumptions at me. I will give you honest answers.
Should you choose to do so, I guarantee you will be in a far better position to make an educated guess since you'd have a better knowledge of the facts. I would expect no less from someone in your line of work.
If you choose not to call, no problem. I understand that your life keeps you busy enough as it is. I mean, if a few little 19x20-pixel graphics of a thumbs-up make you question what the world is coming too, I can only assume you life is far more hectic than mine.
If it is, I wish you all the best.
Cheers.(reply to this comment) |
| | from From a family member
Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 10:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
A current member of the Family asked me to post this comment for them here:
***********
Hi, Razvan!
When I first I saw you coming to this site in particular, I thought that maybe you really wanted to know the truth, but then I went to the site of your newspaper and I realised that all you're interested in is presenting your part of the story.
You take a rumour that you heard or read about and then twist and distort it to fit your agenda. Even here on this site, many people tried to explain to you a few things, but it seems that you hear only what you want to hear.
For instance, they already told you FF-ing has been discontinued in 1987. An they have a Charter of Rules and Regulations that doesn't even allow any kind of romantic or sexual relationships with people outside the group, not even kissing. In fact, if they do that, they suffer the consequences, one of which is excommunication. So the policy of the group is NOT to FF!!!
Another person already also explained you about Tim and Renee's daughters. First of all, you wrote that the girls have friends they go with and that they have orgies wherever they go. I can't keep from laughing because I bet you didn't see any orgies! And if the girls have some kind of relations with people from outside their group, then there will be consequenses to suffer, because they are not supposed to have them!! They could be kicked out just for that. On the other hand, this proves to you that they have free choice, because their parents would most likely tell them not to do that, but behind their backs, maybe the girls would do it. But of course, you don't want to hear this, because it would go against what you want to believe, right?
Another thing: the case in Britain that you are talking about ended with victory for TF. Also, in all these places that they have been investigated in, they've also had victories. Why? Because things weren't as some biased reporters portrayed them!!!! Over 600 of TF's children have been investigated and studied and there was no evidence as to any of these accusations. Of course, these kind of news stories don't make it in the newspapers, because truth is not as sensational as the garbage that certain Newspapers like to publish. BUT there are official sites on the Internet where you can find statements about this, also statements from Human Rights organisations related to TF. By the way, speaking of the Australian situation, not only did TF win the case, but then their children turned around and filed a lawsuit against the people who actually arrested them, and guess what? The state had to apologise and pay the kids for the damage. So this is official, and if you are interested, I can give you some links to official sites. But frankly, I want to know if you're interested, because it seems to me you're still writing distorted information. So let me know, and next time I'll send them.
I also know Tim and Renee Crossman, and I know they are good people and they did a lot of good in your city. You see only what you want to see. You speak of corruption in your country, and I understand that and sympathize with your political situation, but if anybody helped them with paperwork, that is not necessarily illegal! And if they helped, they were helping with a good purpose, in order to get foreign Aid distributed in your country!!! If you are so eager to know the truth and present a balanced perspective, WHY DIDN'T YOU ALSO PRINT THEIR SIDE OF THE STORY IN YOUR NEWSPAPER???? WHY DIDN'T YOU PUBLISH THEIR REBUTTAL?Any newspaper that respects itself would have done that, but you still haven't, which makes your newspaper, again, a TABLOID!!
(reply to this comment)
| From Nancy
Tuesday, April 27, 2004, 17:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Right, the orgies are reserved for world service units! And "winning" the British case? Are you kidding me? Does your knowledge of legal matters defy actual reason and borderline intelligence? Let me inform you, cultie. The British case was a custody case, not a criminal case. Yet, despite that fact, the judgment reads as an indictment against the long history of abuses committed by the sex cult masquerading as a Christian organization known as the Family. You’ve got some nerve talking about distortion. Your members are afraid to even use their own names and you post anonymously. You even have members who have gone so far as to deny the abuses their own children suffered. Your leaders have done it to their children on TV. Why don't you tell people the truth? Why do your leaders and members lie?! Oh, that's right, because you're a CULT MEMBER. Truth and reality have successfully been washed from your brain. Now run along and tell your leader her days are numbered.
You know what I find funny is that you and all others like you are going to end up washed-up losers living off public assistance and being able to look back on their lives and have nothing to show but lies and deceit and a history of abuse.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Tuesday, April 27, 2004, 17:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
And another thing, I read the publication in "1987" which so called "banned" FF'ing. It grandfathered in everyone they were currently screwing. Further, it was published with the intention to curb the spread of AIDS within the cult, not because FF'ing immoral or illegal. Besides, herpes had already run like wildfire through the cult and left hundreds of members infected. The porn industry has higher scruples. At least they don't cloak their sexual exploits in the auspices of "Christian work".
LET US NEVER FORGET, THIS IS THE CULT WHICH PUBLISHED AND PRACTICED THE BELIEF THAT "A LITTLE FONDLING" BY ADULTS WAS ACCEPTABLE FOR CHILDREN!!! If we're going to type in all caps, then let us, at least write something truthful and important.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From anovagrrl
Wednesday, April 28, 2004, 05:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not sure what you mean by this broad generalization about catching "stuff from kissing as much as anything else"--but if you're referring to the nasty spectrum of STDs out there, you're very mistaken. Did you get your sexual health education through an abstinence program? This might explain why you believe kissing spreads STDs "as much as anything else," because that's the only place such claims are made. If by "anything else" you mean unprotected vaginal, anal or oral intercourse, be aware that the level of risk associated with unprotected genital contact is much, much, much more significant than kissing. But you don't have to take my word for it--you can find out the facts for yourself by doing a google on STD transmission and high risk behaviors. Assuming you're interested in scientific facts rather than superstitious beliefs, I suggest ignoring the sites where there is very little or no research evidence cited for the claims made about STD transmission.(reply to this comment) |
| | From i don't think so
Wednesday, April 28, 2004, 13:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anovagrrl, I am sure you know what you are talking about because of your line of work and I appreciate you taking the time to write this.
I guess I am a bit paranoid when it comes to catching diseases and such and I have read articles about STD's which claim that kissing is one way to do so. But I am definately more interested in scientific facts rather then superstitious beliefs. I have a question. -Can't you catch herpes from kissing??(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, April 28, 2004, 21:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
You can think about whatever you want to think about. Unortunately, last time I checked mind control wasn't one of the gifts that the Lord blessed me with. If it had been, trust me, there wouldn't be any of these idiodic threads that have been showing up on this site lately. But for your sake, if you don't want to look like some idiot obsessing over who's allowed to kiss who and who's allowed to f**k who, you might want to change the topic. And while we're on the topic of looking like an idiot, do some research on STD's and quit asking such dumb questions!! PTL GBY JLY!!!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From 1984
Saturday, April 24, 2004, 17:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
although i wrote about what i thought with respect to this "journalist" and his "funny" way of doing his research, in my opinion (using your own words, if you allow me) you see only what you want to see, as well. it is common knowledge for all of us in this site, and for those we have read the final veredict by the English court that the family DID NOT WIN the case, on the contrary, it was because of this veredict and the statements in it, by those involved -in or out of the Fam- that many, several people, specially those of the 2nd generation decided to have anything to do with you and your cult any longer. so, although you refer to some fam writings in order to give some fundation to your speech, i prefer to based my self in a more -let´s say- accurate source, which, in this case, would be the text of the English court. it would be very adviceble to read it before dogmaticaly defend the indefensible. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From dudu
Tuesday, March 30, 2004, 19:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sorry to say this, but I have a strage sensation we've met. Why? Because your arguments are identical with those sent by Crossmans' lawyer to our newspaper. The lawsuits won by TF, the good things they did in our city, how we failed to present their point of view, thus prooving unprofesional, etc., all of these were in their last threat that we received. Please don't try to mislead those who read my post. If you speak Romanian and you are able to read the article in the newspaper, you'll find there at least the lines where Tim and Renee say that all accusations against The Family are lies and how they are persecuted and have won every single court case. All these and other are in the article you said is biased. If it's you, Yelitza, or any other Family member in Constantza, Romania, I am always willing to hear your side of the story and to take it into consideration. One thing you can be sure of is I'll never threaten you with lawsuits like Mr. and Ms. Crossman did with us. (reply to this comment) |
| | From cassy
Sunday, March 28, 2004, 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, except the part about the BI court case. The Family did NOT win the case at all! Did this family member even read what Justice Ward had to say? The Family was not cast in any favourable light. Yes, the mother got to keep the child, but under careful watch to this day. He was wise enough not to pull him apart from his mother. They are not even full members of the F. any more, and I personally know them and know that they do not support a lot of Family doctrines and are pretty independant. To say that the Family won that court case is WS bullshit and shows that you actually know nothing about it, or have chosen to gloss over the findings to support the Family.(reply to this comment) |
| | from lacy
Monday, March 22, 2004 - 16:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
This investigation, if it can even be called one, is very stupid. First of all, this could hardly be called FFing because there is no profit to be made from someone's daughter having sex with an orphan boy. Even if they are really having sex, they are young teenagers and if there is no one else around, that is to be expected. It wouldn't be shocking in the least bit.-At least their daughter's are not having sex with grown men.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the Fam, people are still trying to use FFing to bring in money but this Romanian story doesn't sound like that. And if you are really a journalist doing an article on the COG, how come you know nothing of them? I would suggest that you, dudu, possibly start thinking of other name options for yourself.
(reply to this comment)
| from Wolf
Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 00:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
What was your line of questioning with the 13 year old boy? Was it something like “do you know that the foreigners you’ve been seeing you are from a sex cult”? Your story sounds very far-fetched, and your contact with Sam Ajemian doesn’t make it any better – he’s a lunatic that makes up all kinds of shit himself.
Publishing stories that are full of holes only works in favor of TF & their leadership; it gives them a perfect opportunity to say “look, our enemies are lying about us again”. This will discredit those who are telling the truth about the group.
(reply to this comment)
| from Dudu? or doo doo???
Friday, March 19, 2004 - 21:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dudu boy, don't waste your time writting about FFing, I've heard these kind of stories so many times that it almost sounds lame, but of course this is a free site and you can write about what ever you want.
I'd like to read or hear what the pshichologyst had to say about the whole thing, do you have the report?, if you do post it cause your articule doesn't sound truethfull, there's tendency for journalist to never give facts right just for the sake of selling or impress their boss and you sound like one of those, you luck the hurts of those who have suffered in the cult and have told us all about it, but they have something which makes one believe their stories, no hurts feelings dudu but you have to work on your articules, peace to you...
(reply to this comment)
| from 1984
Friday, March 19, 2004 - 20:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
i, like many in this site, have written about several topics, from linguistic and grammatical argumantation to matters related to the religious field, and of course, about our experiences in the cult, specially those which have had a negative impact in our life, and the way we face life in the present due to those experiences. in writing these several things, there is something that we all have in common, and i do not see in the above article, is what is called veracity, which, in my point of view, the above article lacks of. the journalist, in order to give some consistency to his article refers to Sam. but Sam, although, as Penn, Heart, and other ex COG from the first generation have unmasked the cult, some times lacks of veracity as well, why? in one of his articles he (adressing a claim made by an european country folk) mention that some cOG were involved in some acts of zoophilia, although he (having no evidence) does not give any credit to that claim because of the lack of evidence, but he (Sam) mentioned anyway. what I am trying to say is that, in spite of the fact that we all have suffered in many ways because of our life in the cult, we have the cleverness to see when someone writes fiction and describes facts, we know the difference between veracity and the inverisimil.
(reply to this comment)
| from Vicky
Friday, March 19, 2004 - 14:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Umm, something about this seems not quite right...the language style sounds quite 'family' to me - good fruit, bad fruit... I'm not sure, but could it be someone fooling around?
Personally, I doubt this scenario is true. First of all, I would not expect a family adult use the term 'blowjob champion,' certainly not while speaking to a journalist. Secondly, what point would there be to them offering their daughters to poor orphans? FFing was a money-making venture through and through, and there's hardly going to be any financial benefits to propositioning some little 13 year old guy, is there.
Also, unless the person who wrote this article is not a native english speaker, which is possible I guess since he/she lives in Romania, I doubt that a journalist would write 'me and a friend of mine' as it's not correct. It's a curious mix, as the language sounds too relaxed to be a foreigner, yet not at all the style an english/american journalist would use.
(reply to this comment)
| From Ne Oublie
Friday, March 19, 2004, 15:11
 (Agree/Disagree?)
From the first post I suspected that they were written by one of our 'peers' (an ex-member) rather than a Romanian journalist, but this second posting confirmed it in my mind. I'm actually pretty sure I know who it is that's writing it, based on the style and content - also bearing in mind the people who would know the Crossman's family, location and legal/Family names well enough to put this together.
All that leaves me to wonder is why this person is doing it? Is it because they have a grudge against Tim or Renee (or their kids)? Or is it just a way to gain attention, and see how far this 'prank' will go?
I apologise to Dudu if I'm wrong about this (and they can prove it... perhaps their full name, some articles they've written that have been published online, or some such) - but it's just too like this person whom I suspect to try and pull a prank like this.(reply to this comment) |
| | From familyrat
Friday, March 19, 2004, 19:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Our European source tells us that dudu is not a family young person but is indeed a journalist. From what I gathered, he wrote a biased article which contained minimal evidence, and instead focused on theory and suspicion. From a logical perspective, if he were a young person he would know the disgust that young people in the family feel towards "FF-ing". He would also know that any sexual contact by family young people with outsiders would result in 3 to 6 months of Probationary Status. Therefore if there were any sexual activity, it would be kept a secret from the parents of the participants. Dudu, I highly reccomend that you end this futile investigation and instead focus on areas in TF which need attention. (reply to this comment) |
| | From dudu
Tuesday, March 23, 2004, 08:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Firstly, I'd like to explain some issues regarding the post and myself.
I am a Romanian citizen. I've been studying English for about 16 years and back in 1997 I took a TOEFL test with 65 out of 66 points. I do think that my English has improved since, still I only get to exercise it by talking to foreign tourists that visit my city, Constanta.
When signing-up to this site I was advised to use anonymous name and email. Dudu is a frequently used Romanian name. However, it is not my real name, but Razvan Cristian Petre is. My friend who signed the article is Mihai Razvan Rotaru. I am a freelancer specialized in environmental matters, and I agreed to help him since my English is better. Mihai (Romanian for Michael) has studied religions and history and is a leading journalist of investigation in the field of religions and sects. One criterion we use in Romania to judge a journalist’s value is to look at his lawsuits. Currently he's facing a trial where he has been sued by a crazy yoga-Christian sect for $100,000, that's about what an average Romanian citizen could hope to earn in a lifetime. You can read his articles at http://www.ziua.net/ct.php by looking up his name in the search box at the bottom of the page. The newspaper he works for (and I used to work for), "ZIUA" is not a tabloid, but a serious newspaper, focusing on investigations and political issues.
My post on this site is very different from the article published in the newspaper. I tried to make the post as brief as possible and focus on some key issues. I guess I was wrong and I'll detail this subject, so please find the time to read on.
Regarding Sam Ajemian, in our article in the newspaper we only referred to "The judgement of Sir Justice Ward" posted on his site. I found his site while looking for the words "trial" "judgement" and "COG" on a search engine. Furthermore, I've found it much easier to read his comments on some key issues than browsing thousands of articles posted on this and other sites. Someone questioned my poor knowledge of Family-related topics. I must inform you that the only pieces of information published in Romanian that I was able to find prior to the investigation were related to an article posted in Austria and translated into Romanian by a biased Baptist preacher.
Now, to explain some things about the article:
I used the term "blowjob champion" to simplify the sentence. These are my words, which I used in my previous post only.
Whenever we asked the Crossman anything about allegations of sex abuse, FFing, etc. they would briefly and evasively deny, then they would give us speeches on how to judge them by their (good) fruit. That's why I used those words.
When talking about FFing, I must first tell you about how things work in Romania. Our most serious problem here and one of the most serious problems in Eastern Europe is corruption. And the legal system is doing little to solve this problem. Bribe, blackmail and good relations can get you out of almost anything. One influential businessman had a car accident as he was drunken and killed two elderly citizens going to church on the sidewalk. He was given a three years sentence and a year later he was pardoned and released. FFing would be considered petty crime compared to this.
One thing that struck me was that Family leaders in Romania got to meet high officials who helped them a lot even by arranging for them to by-pass several customs office procedures. It would take months, important friends and lots of money for a Romanian businessman to accomplish that. I'm talking about city mayors and ministers who actually helped them with the paperwork! Moreover, as I previously said, local authorities in the town where the Crossman live have tried to misguide us in our investigations. We've had at least three different reports of Tim Crossman's daughters attending drunken orgies in a basement block apartment that belong to the former town Mayor. Police and the Mayor's Office said the orgies had taken place in a totally different place and guided us to the house of a poor gypsy family who could hardly make a living and had nothing to do with the case. Furthermore, we have several other statements on Tim Crossman's minor daughters having had sexual intercourse with several men. There are accounts on at least two boys, aged 18 or older who were their boyfriends and visited them often, a fact denied by the Crossman, who probably hadn’t seen those boys waiting on their doorsteps for their daughters to come out. In two separate cases, we've had reports of people who overheard conversations on sexual practices between Tim Crossman's daughters.
Now, some of you may find all these to be circumstantial evidence at best, and I knew at the time that it was not enough to draw a conclusion. However, we gave these statements a second look when we found an article posted on the official website of the Romanian Intelligence Service. It was a warning concerning the activities of dangerous religious movements in Romania. It clearly stated that foreign leaders of The Family were using FFing to BLACKMAIL and/or COMPROMISE political and economical authorities IN ROMANIA. The article is not dated, but it’s been on this website for approximately two years. We are talking here about a serious Intelligence Service, who can’t afford to make unsubstantiated allegations, for which it has no proof. And they are clearly stating that FFing was taking place in Romania in the year 2002.
I’ve read some Mo Letters on the family site and several other quotations from Mo letters included in The judgement. Some of David Berg’s ideas were stupid, some were revolting (those pointing to the benefits of child sex). We asked Tim and Renee Crossman what they thought of David Berg’s words and ideas. Renee tried to give us the “judge us by our fruit” speech, but Tim interrupted her and proudly said: “We are living D. Berg’s words and ideas!”
I wouldn’t consider the article biased, since it focused more on warning people of illegal activities in The Family and less on putting the blame on someone. Like it or not, the Crossman were the only ones we knew who could speak on behalf of the Family. When Mihai first tried to contact them, Tim greeted him in Romanian, then said he spoke English only, and when we offered to talk to him in English, he slammed the door. Later he told the Police nobody had visited them and accused us of not wanting to hear his side of the story. Whenever we asked them about child sex and FFing, they said they preferred we talked about their humanitarian work instead. I can’t say they’re guilty of something, yet I don’t understand why they keep hiding and avoiding certain topics, or even talking to us, since they claim to be innocent. Especially since so far, in Romania there’s been no persecution whatsoever, and there are many photos posted on the FCF site showing Family members with officials, and reports of excellent relations with Police and several city Mayors.
Despite my suspicions, I would never try to turn them into an article to be published in the newspaper, firstly, because it’s against my ethical principles, and secondly, because I would risk getting a huge fine and a 3-year jail sentence for libel.
I hope I’ve managed to convince you about my true and serious intentions and that now, that I’ll have to change my mail address, at least I’ll receive some real pieces of advice and information. familyrat, you said I should focus on areas which really need attention. Please let me know what those are and I'll do my best.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From familyrat
Saturday, March 27, 2004, 06:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dudu, as a present member of the Family, there are a few things that I would like to make especially clear. Firstly, I really don't care what your wannabe KGB information services say, THERE IS NO FF'ING HAPPENING IN THE FAMILY! It was already dubious enough that your intelligence service would post the information they aquired on a public website, but even if it is a valid report; do you know how many reports are based merely on suspicion due to past behavior? Alot. The United States claimed they had "valid information" from what is supposed to be a reputable information agency, and used this as the basis for invading another nation. And now, it seems like alot of that information was deliberatly misleading. You seem to be trying to uncover something sinister by prying into a Family home. The fact is that there is nothing illegal at all that goes on in your typical Family home. The unit you should be investigating is WS, which has so far not ever provided Family members with with an accurate account of its financial activities since its beginning. The Leadership of the Family are the ones to blame for the abuses that have been committed in the past, because of the policys and regulations (or should I say lack therof) which provided room for these abuses. FF'ing hasn't been practiced in almost two decades, and now in the Family there are serious penalties for those who have any sexual activity with outsiders.
Its a comon fact that young people such as myself in The Family do regularly engage in such activities with outsiders, but this is kept absolutly secret from parents and leaders. If caught, the official punishment is excommunication. Most likely all that you are doing is uncovering some teenagers who are trying to break from the restrictions that are placed on them. If you focus your investigation on factual evidence and on the real offenders(WS), then in my current position I am obliged to help you with whatever information you require, and this can be done privately by E-mail. But, if you persist in chasing this futile investigation into young people's private sex lives, then all I can say is that you are on your way to making alot of enemies.(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Saturday, March 27, 2004, 10:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Familyrat, as a recently-become-exmember, I would like to take issue with your statement that "there is nothing illegal at all that goes on in your typical Family home." This is a far cry from the truth. Although I do agree with your point that there is no longer FFing practiced in TF, illegal activites abound. How about, for starters: Tax evasion, tax fraud, misrepresentation in solicitation, illegal--or questionable--tactics to obtain visas, staying illegally in countries, lying to landlords: "Yes, we only have 2 adults and two kids on the contract. All 17 others are just visiting us. No, that's not a quadruple bunk-bed, it's a shelf!" The list can go on, but basically, my point is that your claim is completely false.(reply to this comment) |
| | From familyrat
Saturday, March 27, 2004, 13:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Actually, your statement contadicts itself. You said, "Illegal activites abound". You gave about 6 instances of such things, and the only ones which are actually illegal, Tax evasion, and Tax fraud, are completly unrelated since Family members generally recieve no income but rely on donations to support their work. However, these things are rampant in WS. Possesions of false passports, entering countries without proper visas, etc, ARE things that they should be brought to justice for. Please don't even try and tell me that the other things you mentioned which may or may not occur in some family homes are "crimes".(reply to this comment) |
| | From 1984
Saturday, April 24, 2004, 17:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
"... Possesions of false passports, entering countries without proper visas, etc, ARE things that they should be brought to justice for..." under what name did Berg was put in his tomb, were their passports (Zerby´s and Berg´s) false ones when they moved from europe to Asia. Again, you guys should be more informed about the group you´re in. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Wolf
Saturday, March 27, 2004, 23:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude, you can’t be serious! Falsely soliciting for charity is one of TF’s biggest rackets! If they would say “please give me some money so my children can eat and I can pay my bills”, that would probably qualify as begging in most countries and be legal. However, every time they solicit for charity falsely they are breaking the law. Every time somebody in TF sells a poster, video, magazine, etc., they are breaking a law or ordinance, unless they are licensed to sell in that area and pay and necessary sales taxes.
I grew up selling posters by telling bullshit stories, that the money was helping poor people in India or Africa. That BS was certainly not my idea. Your average member is just as bad as the gypsies who make their children go out and beg, except in TF they make their children lie as well.
WS are at the core of a criminal organization, but they are certainly not the only criminals in the group. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Wolf
Monday, March 29, 2004, 00:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude, how many members do you know who request donations for activities they are actually involved with the majority of the time? Most cult communes will occasionally deliver some leftover provisioning or second hand clothes to an institution, and then gather donations for months on the basis of that three hour burst of charity work. According to the leadership, TF’s major emphasis should be “winning the world for Jesus”. How many cult members request donations to help them “win the world for Jesus”?
You need to get one thing straight: there is a difference between begging and soliciting for charity. In most countries soliciting for charity falsely is a much bigger offense than selling without a license. Also, courts judge by actual events that transpired, not cult policy.(reply to this comment) |
| | From umm
Sunday, March 28, 2004, 17:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Where I was, we would tell people that the tapes, for example, didn't have a price, we just asked for a donation. But if they offered a donation less than 10 bucks, no deal. This was very embarassing to pull off, especially since people didn't habitually say "oh TYJ, this stuff will certainly solve all of my life's problems, please take 100 $ each and give me ten for now, then come see me tomorrow!"(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From frmrjoyish
Saturday, March 27, 2004, 10:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
From reading various posts on this site, it should be painfully clear that noone can claim absolute knowledge of everything occuring everywhere in TF. Experiences have varied greatly with location as well as individual circumstances. I for one, have no problem believing, that when in their best interest, TF would stoop to anything in order to achieve their goals. This includes FFing, even though it's been officially discontinued. TF has a long history of flip-flopping on issues whenever it suits them as well as an extensive history of covering up its actions. While you may feel like your present position in TF props you up as some sort of "expert", I for one, take everything you have to say with a healthy bit of scepticism, despite your previously stated reasons for choosing to remain a cult member.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From familyrat
Saturday, March 27, 2004, 06:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dudu, as a present member of the Family, there are a few things that I would like to make especially clear. Firstly, I really don't care what your wannabe KGB information services say, THERE IS NO FF'ING HAPPENING IN THE FAMILY! It was already dubious enough that your intelligence service would post the information they aquired on a public website, but even if it is a valid report; do you know how many reports are based merely on suspicion due to past behavior? Alot. The United States claimed they had "valid information" from what is supposed to be a reputable information agency, and used this as the basis for invading another nation. And now, it seems like alot of that information was deliberatly misleading. You seem to be trying to uncover something sinister by prying into a Family home. The fact is that there is nothing illegal at all that goes on in your typical Family home. The unit you should be investigating is WS, which has so far not ever provided Family members with with an accurate account of its financial activities since its beginning. The Leadership of the Family are the ones to blame for the abuses that have been committed in the past, because of the policys and regulations (or should I say lack therof) which provided room for these abuses. FF'ing hasn't been practiced in almost two decades, and now in the Family there are serious penalties for those who have any sexual activity with outsiders.
Its a comon fact that young people such as myself in The Family do regularly engage in such activities with outsiders, but this is kept absolutly secret from parents and leaders. If caught, the official punishment is excommunication. Most likely all that you are doing is uncovering some teenagers who are trying to break from the restrictions that are placed on them. If you focus your investigation on factual evidence and on the real offenders(WS), then in my current position I am obliged to help you with whatever information you require, and this can be done privately by E-mail. But, if you persist in chasing this futile investigation into young people's private sex lives, then all I can say is that you are on your way to making alot of enemies.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Christy
Friday, March 26, 2004, 18:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dudu, from the situation you've described, it seems to be pretty clear that this is a case of a couple of horny teenaged girls sneaking out and having sexual encounters with equally eager horny teenaged boys. I'm sure you are all too familiar with the problems in your country faces with the sex industry, specifically, foreigners entering the country to engage in the prostitution of street children and orphans. From what I understand, this problem has reached epidemic proportions and that Romania has become a Mecca for pedophiles (particularly gay men). I think that your awareness of these problems may be what is causing you to confuse the actions of a couple of promiscuous teen girls with the practice of FFing. As has been brought out by others on this site, FFing was always about the money, specifically the COG receiving money and other valuable gifts from their "fish", not the other way around. This is not the line you will receive from current members. They still maintain that it was about sharing God's love with the needy.
Another point you brought up is that the Crossman's were evasive during you attempts to establish contact. It could very well be that although they are connected with the Family, they don't want their current efforts to be undermined by the group’s history. They have made the choice to remain in a group that has such a sketchy past; so negative publicity is something that they will most likely just have to deal with. While they themselves may be truly good people, the fact remains that they might end up guilty by association. It's not something I necessarily like, but it's something that I accept, and it is among the many reasons I chose to leave the group. That said, there are tons of true and factual accusations that can be brought against the Family, there really is no need to make up additional claims. From what you wrote, it seems like you are looking to base your expose' on real evidence. It's evident, however, that you still have an extremely meager understanding of the Family and their practices and beliefs, both past and current. I would recommend looking into some of the academic studies that have been done on the Family as they might give you a little more insight into it's ideology and practices.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Wolf
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 23:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I understand that you have become seriously suspicious of the Crossman’s because of their evasive behavior.
I could be wrong, but judging by what I know about group members worldwide, the adult Crossman’s are probably not engaging in sex with anybody outside the group or prostituting their daughters. Their daughters may well be highly promiscuous. It’s not surprising that they are afraid of journalists: if the truth about the Family’s strange beliefs and history is published, it would certainly put the Crossman’s in a bad light. Just the fact that they are in TF means they profess to believe in having sexual relations with Jesus. They are most likely giving their children a poor education, and lying to make money. Aside from that they are supporting TF’s criminal leadership.
Regarding the Crossman’s good relations with city officials, this is not necessarily corruption. Gaining the favor of top officials has always been one of the group’s aces, and while they once used sexual favors to do this, they have become quite adept at doing it without any sexual or monetary stimuli. It would be helpful if these officials learned about the Crossman’s beliefs and TF’s history, and the Crossman’s are likely very afraid of this happening.
I can’t help but mentioning that attributing the statement “blowjob champion” to the Crossman’s when in fact they said nothing of the sort is pretty poor journalism. There is plenty of real dirt on TF, there is no need to resort to making things up.(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 09:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Gaining the favor of top officials has always been one of the group’s aces, and while they once used sexual favors to do this, they have become quite adept at doing it without any sexual or monetary stimuli."
Regardless of how such favors are gained, if a group of people are treated better than most by officials then that is still inequality and corruption. Where did you grow up, Mexico City? (reply to this comment) |
| | From Mydestinyismine
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 23:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wolf, you read it wrong.
Dudu wrote:
"At one moment, when their daughter, aged 15, returned from her "evening walk", they even invited her to take a seat and listen to us about how a boy branded her 17 year-old sister a "blow-job champion"."
Dudu was telling the Crossmans that a boy had told him that their 17 year old is a "blow-job champion". From the whole story he heard he shortened it to that term to explain it to us.
In Dudu's post he exlained:
"I used the term "blowjob champion" to simplify the sentence. These are my words, which I used in my previous post only. "
The sentence he's refering to is the story a boy told them about the 17 year old girl.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 16:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for your explanation. It is helpful to know the context and your credentials before volunteering information.
Usually before requests from journalists are posted on this web site somone contacts them privately to verify their identity and understand a little more about the type of information they are looking for and why. Your request was probably just not noticed in time.
Regarding FFing, actually the Family has never renounced it or discontinued it. What was stopped in 1989 was actually engaging in sex with non-members. Using flirtation or sexuality to win converts or raise money was never stopped. While sexual contact with outsiders is not encouraged or allowed by the Family now, in an environment like the Family, where sex is such a major part of the beliefs and practices of this group, members are sometimes not aware of what is or is not appropriate behaviour. Although if you suspect otherwise, it certainly should be investigated (by child welfare) I think it's extremely unlikely that these girls are being "offered up" by their parents. From what I understand it's a bit more of the other way around in a lot of communes. Young people are frequently promiscious with or have relationships with non-members but it's behind their parents back and it's been identified by Zerby as quite a "problem" for the group. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Vicky
Saturday, March 20, 2004, 04:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sorry but I'm still not convinced. I just find it hard to believe that this person is not ex-fam. For example, the first sentence, 'I am a journalist working on a COG-related series of articles' just doesn't sound right to me. It sounds like family writing. I would have to see some actual proof of this person's work, otherwise I'm going to continue regarding this whole issue as highly questionable.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from JohnnieWalker
Friday, March 19, 2004 - 14:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dudu, as a former member of The Family, I am asking you to please discontinue your investigation. From the way you have described it, you strategy is flawed and your actions uncalled for.
Do the crimes of some Family members current and former need to be brought to light and the indivuduals tried in court? I believe they do. But please, let it be done professionally and not with some half-assed attempt to advance one's own journalistic career (I hope this is not the case here).
There is only one thing I abhor more than having a guilty party go free, and that is having innocent persons take the fall for the guilty party's actions.
If you have hard evidence that the Crossmans are guilty of criminal actions, then by all means, take them to court. But until then--assuming you are correct in your findings--it seems you have uncovered nothing more than sexual activity between what would appear to have been consenting minors.
(reply to this comment)
| From Nancy
Saturday, March 20, 2004, 18:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
What kind of statement is that?! "As a former member of The Family, I am asking you to..." Are you attempting to serve as an agent of the Family due to your status as a former member? Your comment orders someone to stop doing something based on the authority you claim to derive from the status of having been formerly affiliated with a cult. Are you claiming an agency relationship in making statements based on your authority as a former member?
First of all, you are either a spokesperson for them or not. You either have authority to speak for that cult or not. If you do not, then attempting to represent their interest by making statements based on your authority as a former member is misleading.
Further, who in their right mind would want to attempt to invoke any authority based on former member status in a cult? Agency theory is pretty simple. You either speak for them or not. I have never heard of anyone attempting to speak for a group or organization, much less a cult, based on their status as a former member. Representing them, attempting to speak for them and making requests to others based on your former member status is misleading and down right weird. Why would you want anyone to know you were in a cult, much less pretend to have some sort of authority to make requests based on that status?
Who even claims to have been a member of a cult? I wasn't a member! I was never part of that wicked, criminal organization. I left when I was seventeen, and prior to that, I was there against my will. I would NEVER claim to have been a member. That assumes I condoned or practiced their criminal and distorted practices.
JW, this is just plain weird. You can't have it both ways. You can't speak for both cult members and ex-members. Further, your statements sound so off base. "Consenting minors"?! There is no such thing! A minor does not have the legal capacity to consent. That is why there are statutory rape laws.
I'm not agreeing with this article you are criticizing. I don't have an opinion on that. But, the idea of wanting to do something about the sexual exploitation of children, however novice the individual may be, is an effort I will always support. If you want to make some negative comment on their efforts, you are free to do so, but you need to think through your comments a little better because they have come off here very "flawed" and "uncalled for".(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Saturday, March 20, 2004, 18:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm with you on this one Ex. When the "home shephard" molested me, I wish someone had cared enough to have called the authorities for me and not just "gone the hell away" as JW is ordering. I wish a journalist or police officer or anyone had been there the five years I was taken out of school and made to work for a cult and beg on the streets for them as a child. I used lie awake at night and wish and pray the police would be called by the neighbors in Houston when I was being beaten so severely that I was covered with bruises and cuts. I just hoped they would come when the bruises were worse, so we could be taken away from that cult and go back to school and not just be returned to our parents who just stood by when this abuse happened or even participated in it. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Nancy
Monday, March 22, 2004, 19:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Is that what we're calling it lochnuisance, "hateful nonsense". Is that what your mommy and daddy called it when they abused the children in their care? Your plain "don't mind me I'm young and stupid attitude" has gained you the response you’re requesting, being ignored. You know with your attitude, no wonder the Family wants you back. Daddy would be proud!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Nancy
Tuesday, March 23, 2004, 15:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
What? Hello? Did you read the crap lochnuisance "spewed" at me? If the little girl lives in glass houses, then she shouldn't thrown stones. This girl was the one who attacked me first with her ridiculous lies about her care when she was a child. She has no idea what kind of people her own parents are. She's totally out of touch, and then she whines about unfair treatment. Grow up, honey. You know, I posted nice comments to her when she first began posting on this website to which she never responded. She was the one who then started with the trash, so don't complain to me about "harshness". This is the real world. If she can't stand the heat, then she needs to get the hell out of the kitchen because I will defend myself when attacked. End of story!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mydestinyismine
Tuesday, March 23, 2004, 20:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think the problem is this: "I will defend myself when attacked". No one is attacking you. Some just have different views and some state this just as strongly as you do your opinion. I think we all respect you for what you've been through and the knowledge you obviously have. Your insight on legal stuff has been invaluable, at least for me. And the article "The Incredible Hulk Syndrome" was awesome. However, at times it seems you see this site as a court of law and anyone that critisizes you as an attacker. I don't have the time to go looking for what it was that she wrote but I do remember thinking and posting that you over reacted to her comment. I know it wasn't defamation. And if it was, then a number of this sites members could be suing each other. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Nancy
Tuesday, March 23, 2004, 21:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Characterize it however you like, but saying I somehow mistreated the little girl when I did nothing of the sort, especially in a thread in which child abuse was the topic, was a ridiculous and slanderous lie. I consider that an attack and I will defend my name. Further, here stupid little comments all over the place in discussions which I was having with other people far from makes her a little saint who needs defending. What she needs is to know what she's talking about before she runs her big mouth.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Nancy
Tuesday, March 23, 2004, 22:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Isn't that the truth. I don't have time for this nonsense. If these people want to purport to speak for a cult, give their money to a cult, defend inane and twisted cult doctrines, by all means carry on. Years from now they may finally come round, if not, I could really care less. That's why I left that cult the first chance I got, at seventeen, because I didn't want to waste my life in a brainwashed cult full of wackos doing God only knows what these days. Disgusting is what it is. But, if some want to wallow in it, be my guest. I have a life to lead that is a cult free one. Let them continue to debate the non-existent "gray areas" of where cult practices confront the law until the cows, their parents or possibly Jesus f'ing Christ comes home.(reply to this comment) |
| | From loch
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 12:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, a small note, to those who care:
I never acused Nancy of mistreating me as a child. What I had said was "I don't have any good memories of you" and the fact is, I don't have any good memories of my pet turtles either, but that was becasue they craped constantly, and stank up my room. If that means that I am now accusing them of child abuse, and they can sue me for defaming their name, we live in a screwed up world indeed!
The fact is, it was very very easy for Nancy to attack me, and center her hatred at me, because, as she has said before, she has a deep hatred for my parents. Maybe that is a normal feeling for a person to have, I don't know, because, for example, I love Sam Piper to death, but I hate his Dad!
Oh, I just remembered, I think that I may have called Nancy a grump (oooo, what I meanie I am!) I think we will all now agree, that was an understatment of the year!(reply to this comment) |
| | From farmer
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 02:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Isn't that the truth"...should have at least one question mark...may be that's symbolic of you... you don't even question your own statements anymore, whether they could be a l l true or may be only in part...
Although I'd laud and praise up & down anyone for their courage to leave TF as early as possible (17 & even earlier than that), I still am super happy about anyone who leaves at all,
no matter what age & similar to Exister I could also say, that whatever would help, bringing the downfall of TF, is welcome, as long as it's nothing criminal...knowing, that the whatever "upright & good" people who could still be left right now in TF(?) (which I like to assume), would probably do a better job somewhere else, free from TF.However, I find it a bit annoying to read, that you only seem to understand the most radical ones, the youth having left very early like yourself, the ones, who needed time to understand the awful wrongs, criminal activities, evils etc.of TF, you regard with more or less open contempt...I have to agree with Wolf, that some people needed just more time.
Question to you, Nancy: Do you think, that TF, from the very beginning, at every second on every spot of the world treaded upon by each individual member of the family until now, comitted o n l y evil things???...
I'd say no, cause it shouldn't (too much ; ) )include- at
least- the SGA's, right??... their very existence I consider something very positive, which wouldn't be possible without TF ; ) ....yet you sound so utterly disgusted with anyone, who only hints at the possibility, that not everything at all times should be considered terrible in TF.It's called induction, if you conclude from your experience & that of many others, that TF must have been only awful & terrible everywhere at any given time.That's the way you sound...& I find that laughable, because not even outside enemies reason like that.I thought studying law should sharpen ones mind for what is fair and just?!I myself am super happy to be
out, yet I don't live in constant "flagellation" about the evil things I failed to discern & didn't catch - with consequences - earlier...I have also my reasons for it...my environment until 89 was not as bad as I heard later, that it had been the case elsewhere...One of my early favourite letters was titled something like: Declaration of Independence...Some sort of freedom from dictating "shepherds" was experienced after the RNR...people did, what suited them best...you wouldn't remember that, would you??(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 13:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, you've convinced me now, you, Wolf and all the other wise one's who are smart enough to glean the good from the bad in TF. I mean, after all, who cares that they sexually molested, physically abused, neglected, and abandoned their own kids? Who cares that many sincere and good hearted "missionaries" turned a blind eye to all of this?Who cares that they became pimps and whores in the name of God, or lied publicly about their identities in order to proselytize more money? Who cares that they continue to defraud the governments of wealthier countries while defrauding the people of poorer ones?
After all, as long as they get a bunch of people (who cares if it's mostly kids and non-english speakers) to "repeat after me...", as long as they sell their pornographic posters, etc... whatever it takes to keep the stats up, as long as they keep making those adorable little balloon animals, as long as they keep making their "kiddie viddies" to teach kids how to not be bad systemite little brats, then the good really does outweigh the bad. Shame on me for not seeing it sooner. So now that my eyes are open, I would love to continue splitting hairs with you all! Please people, keep educating me on all the wonderfull things TF does that so outweighs the tiny weenie bit of bad the done (all in the past of course)!! (reply to this comment) |
| | From farmer
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 02:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
I suppose, we agree probably more than your reply seems to indicate...
On a scale from 0 to 1, where would you think TF would be?O for o n l y being evil & 1 for being super good.
I never said, that I wouldn't want all the evils to be (meticulously) included & summed up - as futile as I think that operation should be, as no one has a full view for all times of what happened everywhere, right from the beginning...but at least give your parents or whomever else
some (due) credit for being on earth, that is not positive??
(I can't imagine, that you'd give yourself a 0 & all the other SGAs too,so to speak)
Even if they failed in education & TF in tons of other things there is the positive event of you being here...so how could TF be rated a "clean" 0 ???
Really my point of view, that I am not smart enough to figure out, where exactly TF would land on an imaginary scale, I figure way below 1, but where, don't ask me...I only pleaded for not opting for the 0, following the simple idea, that it takes TF & adults to "make you" in the first place, even if they mishandled your "landing" here.
I am not at all interested in debating/gleaning, where TF might have done good on a individual basis or even more general...that's too subjective IMO...but in my own frame of mind I haven't now resorted to the tactic to tell myself constantly that all must have been bad, although I didn't perceive that at that moment or even later.There were talks with people in & out, which I considered very deep & satisfying...so why should that now be all negative too??I could understand, that some/many? people have only or nearly only negative memories or experiences.
My question to myself & even to the board is:Does that all
sum up to O...zero????I said, how I would answer & may be the answer depends a lot on where you lived & when.As a whole, I think nobody here - or few - have TF on their individual, subjective scale close to 1....however I pleaded for little tolerance for those, who have TF for whatever reasons a few notches higher than oneself, simply because we are not perfect in judgement...again, hardly anyone would want to return to that crowd...it's just a matter of not being "blindly" negative...although the overall very negative picture remains, never thought of questioning that here... (reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 11:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ha ha! Too funny! I asked for more hair splitting and you sure delivered, farmer! I wouldn't positively rate the family on any scale whether 1-10, 0-1, 1-100, or negative infinity to positive infinity. And now you want me to "count my blessings" for being born? My existence on this earth is due to the fact that my fathers sperm happened to find and sucessfully activate my mothers fertile egg, then all the cells happened to sucessfully undergo mitosis, gastrulation, blastulation, etc. all without any fatal mutations occuring! The end result is this wonderfull, fabulous bunch of cells, tissues, and organs that I like to call...me! My parents, other than possesing viable gametes on the day of my conception, had about as much to do with my presence as we do with the digestion of our food after we eat it. One variation or change in my development could've created an entirely different person. So, no, i don't thank my lucky stars that TF existed and produced me! If TF never existed and I hadn't been born I wouldn't be around to know how unlucky I was. I have no tolerance for perverse, deceitfull cults, whether or not my very existence depended on that cult! The bad far far outweighs any minute amount of good that may have been done. I refuse to excuse them based on some "deep converstion" I may have had with someone while in the group. My answer to you is, yes, the bad cancels out any good TF may have done to leave a score of 0, the very worse possible score for that cult! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From farmer
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 11:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Well, from the word order, I'd say it was a question, probably a very rhetoric one, one you could answer easily from your point of view, which is still subjective...who is totally objective??One of the FG-generation slogans, before even TF-time, I asume, was: all is relative...which was kind of my favourite...Berg's letter: There are absolutes, I didn't find very helpful, even while in TF...
Nancy, I only wanted to point out, sort of "foreseeing" your reply, that it leaves you vulnerable, to make blanket statements like that, which I try to avoid in my life, as it leaves you with the need to prove it & chances are, that things get overlooked & pointed out by someone else, at the minimum disagreed with.Even if I agreed with you in my heart with what you asked at JW (or others?), that's your right, still it could be, that people could surprise you with their good answers.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From farmer
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 05:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Very rarely I turn down a polite request & also this one I'll give into readily...I'll use the gained time by studying, what also Exister hinted at, "lively" /dead languages & thanks, also the creation of an own website - as I already have that space - is on my mind since some time...right timing, I guess...
I like to close in saying, this is a wonderful website , I gained a lot while having been here & I wish you all a
wonder-full, enjoyable & peaceful present & future!
Although I personally was never too annoyed by anyone's
comment to any of my posts, I must say, I would have often liked it better, if you could have treated each & every one of
your own peers with a little more respect, as you all have the same / similar difficult & unique past & background & I wish each of you a good understanding of the varying individual situations.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From sarafina
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 13:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
No now that's not true either. I got along with Nancy just fine right from the start and the only thing that will get you off to a bad start with Nancy is if you start off by being sympathetic and passive toward the family or if you defend child abusers. I too absolutely hate that attitude I just may not me as vocal as she is. I also think those of us and whose families were abused may have a bit more anger and want them to pay for their crimes.Not all of us had happy little lives just singing and witnessing in the family.
I was tortured, beaten and starved. It is not ethical to lock a 15 yr old in a single room for two weeks at a time fasting and praying just because they didn't want to take off their "bra" and therefore had an "unyeilded spirit" Or spank a 16 yr old girl in front of a whole school of people just for helping steal back an inhaler for a fellow teen who had asthma and almost died but was told not to use it cause she needed to learn to have more faith, nor is it to have a 12 yr old boy duck walk around a gravel court till he's so exhausted he has to crawl and his elbows and knees are bloody and bleeding, and he's so dehydrated and ready to pass out, all because that shepherd was jealous over a relationship our dad had w/ his g/f years and years ago before they were even together (which he later confessed too as his reasons for our torture)
Our family is messed up because of the family and their sick doctrines. I couldn't even begin to tell you. All the kids at one point have been in therapy or had to see shrinks, My 17 brother once again just commited suicide and shot himself. He's gone! Can they give me back my brother?? I think there are sometimes when no matter how sorry you are the damage that's been done cannot be reversed. Sure we go on and yes I have to DEAL with all this everyday and move forward, we try to save the ones we can. however I will never sympathize w/ the family nor make excuses for any one involved. If they want to serve god fine get out of a brainwashing , fucked up evil cult and go serve him somewhere else!
I don't care what they are doing now or if the have changed now, it doesn't change what they DID. In this country if you kill someone or rape someone or commit any crime and then run away without getting caught at the time it doesn't matter if its 20 yrs later and you could "have a new life" now and have became a christen or priest or work for charity but you will still go to jail and pay for your past crimes. So please if you had a ok life in the fam good for you but for those of us who didn't and whose families are fucked up because of it just leave us the fuck alone and let us have our payback why should you care.
Oh and to Loch regarding your comment about not understanding "giving of one's life over to pure hatred" it's all part of the healing process. When my brother died I didn't feel anything not even sad then I felt lonely and missed him, then I realized he's never coming back, then I was sad, and now I'm angry! They say there are different levels of pain you will feel about loss or abuse and one of them IS HATE so look at it this way if we are feeling hateful that means were making progress. Maybe your just way ahead of us or maybe you've never had reason enough to feel such hate.
And once more for those of you who keep saying "if you dwell on it aren't they still ruling your life"? That is how we were taught to think! They want us to walk away from it, they want to get off the hook, we were taught not to hold on to anger and just forgive everyone. Not everyone deserves forgiveness esp not criminals. We are finally standing up to them saying we know what you did and we know it was wrong now fess up and pay the Piper. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Wolf
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 11:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
I have a feeling you’re playing dumb here to get a rise (hopefully you’re not actually this dull), but I’ll venture an answer anyway...
To steal one of Joe’s favorite examples, Old Navy’s clothing has some “redeeming qualities” but I sure as hell wouldn’t buy any. Only an idiot would stay in an abusive cult just because it has some “redeeming qualities”. As soon as I became sure that TF was indeed an abusive cult, I left.
Now, for the redeeming qualities: there really aren’t any in the cult as a whole, rather some individual members posses them. Some members are great people who are sincerely doing their best to help those around them, and believe it or not some are actually doing quite a bit of good in their respective communities. Yes, they’re supporting criminal leaders, and yes, they profess belief in outlandish and potentially harmful practices, which is why there are no good reasons for anybody to stay in the cult.
Believe it or not, I know quite a few people who testify that their lives were positively improved by contact with TF’s members. Some of these people even know about the crimes and weird beliefs, but still love the individual people who were genuinely concerned about them. I also have a friend (a free mason) who has hired several former members (who were born in the group). She raves about what wonderful people we are, as says she wishes she could meet our parents, even though she also knows what TF is. For some reason she thinks people who were born in the group are exceptional individuals.
Like JW said, none of the good makes up for the many crimes committed by TF’s members, or makes the cult “good”.
The point of my posts here has always been the same: if we become fanatics and view the cult as pure evil, we’re no better than they are. If there’s anything we should have learned from our negative experiences in the cult, it’s that fanaticism is not a good thing.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From exister
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 11:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're right. I really shouldn't get so worked up about the rape and brutalization of children. I'll really work on trying to give predators of children a fair shake. Hey we all deserve a chance to justify ourselves right. Jizzus help me to get the victory over this spirit of rage! Maybe we can schedule an exorcism, and you and JW can lay hands on me so I can become a smiling, sedate, level headed moderate like the two of you. Thank you so much for showing me the way!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 12:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
I consider rage to be the antithesis of rational thought, which is why I do not support it as a healing method - regardless of how justified the victim may be in their rage. The definition of rage is 'to be furious with anger; to be exasperated to fury; to be violently agitated with passion', I do not consider any of these to represent a course of action which includes rational thought, nor are they traits with which I wish to associate myself.
I consider rage to be closer to the mindset of TF, which advocates a 'sold-out, unquestioning obedience' to their doctrines and practices. It is the opposite end of the spectrum - merely the opposite swing of the pendulum - and thus closer conceptually than a median attitude. Therefore I consider a rational and measured thought process to be in greater opposition to TF's beliefs than merely raging.
Rage is the impetus behind acts such as suicide bombings and domestic violence (which I am NOT accusing anyone on this site of - they are simply extreme examples of what rage will drive some individuals to), rage implies an irrational response to unbearable circumstances. Therefore I see rage as an inappropriate response - though an entirely human one - to injustice or human suffering. Raging may bring a form of closure, and perhaps a sense of justice, but it will not solve the problem. To do so requires rational calculation and implementation.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From
Friday, March 26, 2004, 19:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was in a raid when I was very little in TF and another when I was older. There have been raids all throughout TF history, but TF has made more noise about those in the 90s.
In the raid when I was little, I was scared because all the adults would talk about is that the Romans were bad and so their drumming into me that systemites hated us caused the worst part of it.
In the raid when I was older, all I could think of was that I hoped it stuck and I was taken out of TF, because a woman had said she could take me in if I was taken away from TF. I hoped and hoped and hoped, but it didn't happen. I ended up having to run on my own in the middle of the night with nothing. I almost didn't make it.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Ne Oublie
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 12:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
I consider rage to be the antithesis of rational thought, which is why I do not support it as a healing method - regardless of how justified the victim may be in their rage. The definition of rage is 'to be furious with anger; to be exasperated to fury; to be violently agitated with passion', I do not consider any of these to represent a course of action which includes rational thought, nor are they traits with which I wish to associate myself.
I consider rage to be closer to the mindset of TF, which advocates a 'sold-out, unquestioning obedience' to their doctrines and practices. It is the opposite end of the spectrum - merely the opposite swing of the pendulum - and thus closer conceptually than a median attitude. Therefore I consider a rational and measured thought process to be in greater opposition to TF's beliefs than merely raging.
Rage is the impetus behind acts such as suicide bombings and domestic violence (which I am NOT accusing anyone on this site of - they are simply extreme examples of what rage will drive some individuals to), rage implies an irrational response to unbearable circumstances. Therefore I see rage as an inappropriate response - though an entirely human one - to injustice or human suffering. Raging may bring a form of closure, and perhaps a sense of justice, but it will not solve the problem. To do so requires rational calculation and implementation.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Joe H
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 13:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
That's an interesting analogy, Wolf, especially when you consider that the US made an attack on Afghanistan "all about" bin Laden and al Qaeda. Much like the former leaders of Afghanistan, the Family has repeatedly refused to turn its terrorists over to justice. Was this war justified? And if it was, is this an appropriate precedent for action against the Family? I think it comes down to utilitarian morals vs. moral absolutism. If you feel that the few "innocent" members of the Family absolutely must be protected, than obviously you won't care that bringing down the cult would serve a greater purpose, i.e. the net effect would be positive. What I'm also not clear on is how these "innocents" will be SO negatively affected. A mildly traumatising change in lifestyle? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see it as a big concern.
PS I put the word "innocents" in scare quotes to acknowledge that the innocence of anyone in the Family is debatable and relative.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Wednesday, March 24, 2004, 17:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
You know, it's funny how often people think their own realities apply to everyone else as well.
Believe it or not, my reasons for leaving don't even come close to what you've suggested. I'm sure there are as many reasons for leaving the Family as there are people who have left.
One of the main reasons I left was because I felt I would never be able to reach my full potential--both academically and fiscally--in the Family. Aside from my preteen and younger teenage years, I had a pretty good life (and least I get pounced on: I realize that I belong to a minority in this regard).
That said, had the Family provided me with the opportunity to advance mentally and financially, I would still have left. As I mentioned earlier, towards the end of my stay in the Family, I began to grow conscious of what was actually going on in the Family environment (call me a dim-wit if you like--you might be right.) Once my wife and I had decided to leave, it took us two years of getting ourselves set up and ready to leave (at the time we had 1 child with another on the way and owned nothing but 3 suitcases full of belongings) before we made the break.
Again, would neither of the above conditions have ever existed, I would still have left because of the beliefs. As I became a teenager, I found myself agreeing less and less with the Family's published beliefs. Two years prior to leaving, I had already abandoned most of the Family's doctrines (except for those accepted by Christianity at large).
As far as the Family's redeeming qualities go: If by redeeming, you mean to say that their good qualities make up for any crimes that Family members have committed, then I say there are none.
Do they have at least some good qualities? I believe they do as does everything under the sun. In my opinion, nothing on this earth is pure good and pure evil. That's where the shades of gray come in (BTW, when I refer to shaded of gray I mean many different shades of proverbial gray, not Justin's one big gray of "I can't tell which way is up or down", type of nonsense. I know where I stand firm and what I believe, and I also know where to loosen up a bit and learn).
Where those qualities enough to make me decide to stay in the Family. I think the answer is obvious.
After giving it some serious thought over the last couple of days, I think I have come a little closer to understanding where people like Nancy are coming from. I still do, and always will, try to empathize with the suffering they have gone through and yet I cannot in good conscience label all Family members and their affiliates as "evil".(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 09:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
I would contend that you are unable to accept the fact that you squandered part of your adult life, and are consequently grasping at straws to try to find something good in the aberrant microcosm of the Family. Why don't you just accept that your time in the Family was a waste instead of defending a structure that facilitated so much abuse and brutality?(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Thursday, March 25, 2004, 09:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
If you really want to believe that, go ahead. You have every right to. I can assure you, that this is not the case.
Had I been doing nothing but living hand to mouth during my adult years in the Family, yes, I agree, it would have been a waste of my time. However, I feel that the years of my adult in the Family life were quite productive, and were I to be given the opportunity to re-live them (minus the Family member status), I would gladly do so. The experiences and knowledge I gained during that time was invaluable.
Really, exister, your apparent inability to accept that not every person who grew up in the Family had a terrible or wasted life is starting to become a little childish. I suggest you get to know the individuals you're addressing (i.e. Wolf, myself, and a few others) a little before making such generalizing statements about them.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From loch
Tuesday, March 23, 2004, 15:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry exister, although I get pissed when just talking about the COG ect. I don't understand the giving of one's life over to pure hatred.
Isn't that kind of like letting the creeps win, by letting them get the best of you?
And did u hear that, the Family wants me back? Is that what she said?! Why the hell would they want me back?! I never did anything they wanted me to! Never liked the Loving Jesus nonsense or the idiotic law of love. The only thing I was good for, was watching other peoples kids while they masterbated, and danced for Jesus in their disgusting panties!(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Friday, March 19, 2004, 15:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
COG apologist? That's funny! May I suggest you get to know me a little better before calling me an apologist? Although I do not consider myself one, I do believe that people have a right to believe whatever the they please to so long as they don't harm others.
Exister, why do you think it would benefit the Crossmans to "go home and get jobs"? Do you really think the Romanian authorities should give them "a little heat" because of some unfounded rumors? I am all for an investigation if there are criminal charges, but from the looks of it, it doesn't seem like the Crossmans have anything to hide.
Like I said, it doesn't seem like any criminal act has taken place. That's why I say leave them alone and go after the real criminals. Do you disagree with that?
I wish there had been some nosy self-serving reporters around some of the homes I've lived in too, but I also wish that those nosy self-serving people who were around when I and my wife had a well-functioning humanitarian-aid project going would have stayed the hell away.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Saturday, March 20, 2004, 18:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
When you were running this "well-functioning humanitarian-aid project" were you contributing financially to the Family? Were you practicing their beliefs concerning "Loving Jesus"? Were you exposing your children to their doctrines and practices? If you were tithing, at the very least, you were contributing to the exploitation of children because you were giving money to an organization which has raped, beaten and neglected children, an organization which did so in the name of God, an organization which harbors its worst offenders, an organization run by a woman who has support and expoused such practices for more than twenty years. This must have been some project either aimed at obtaining peace in the Middle East, curing AIDS or bringing food to the starving in order to outweigh the harm in support and affiliation with the cult the Family.
In "leav[ing] them along and go[ing] after the real criminals," which ones do you mean? I don't know any worse criminals than those in the Family. At least your average pedophile/child molestor doesn't claim that he is acting in "God's love". At least your average child beater doesn't claim he is "God's rod" for the child and that if the child tries to get away "God will punish" them.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Sunday, March 21, 2004, 00:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
I know you don’t like me interjecting my opinions, but since unlike you Johnniewalker doesn’t seem to be into self-aggrandizement, I feel like saying a few words on his behalf. JW was selflessly giving his life to better the conditions in Africa, while simultaneously caring for his children. Have you ever done something similar yourself? I might add that he was doing so not because he felt required to; TF actually put pressure on charity efforts such as his to be less charitable and more evangelical.
Every American citizen who contributed to Nixon’s campaign fund was contributing to his criminal acts. Were each of those citizens criminals, or even morally wrong? Only if they knew about his criminal activities when they contributed.
Since we were little, we were told that the accusations of child abuse were lies. We were taught that adult / child sex was good, that beating children for their mistakes was the right thing to do, that learning was of the devil, etc. You seem quite proud that you never believed these lies, and you have a right to be. However, some of us had no alternate source of information. Yes, our conscious told us that something wasn’t right, and we became more and more aware of this “something” as we grew up. You probably realize that children are not usually able to see themselves in somebody else’s shoes, and I didn’t realize that the girls had suffered from their sexual contact with adults until I was a full-grown adult. David Berg successfully created an environment in which we only learned his standards of “right” and “wrong”. I don’t think you can blame those who supported the group while being raised in this environment. The verdict lies in what people did once they became adults and started to realize the truth.
You continually remind us of the horrible situation you were in before leaving TF; if each of us was in a situation that bad, we probably would’ve left much sooner. In some places children were not being seriously abused, and some of us were arguably doing valuable charity work. It understandably took us much longer to realize the underlying evils of the cult. IMO JW deserves commendation for his efforts to better the world around him, while he was in the process of realizing the truth about TF. There are teens who just sat around complaining, and are now very proud of themselves for “never submitting to the cult”. Maybe they never submitted, but what do they have to show for their childhood and teenage years? I take my hat off to those who did something worthwhile with those years, in spite of the cult’s madness.
When JW speaks of “going after the real criminals”, I assume he means the cult members who have committed crimes, as opposed to those who haven’t.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Nancy
Sunday, March 21, 2004, 09:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't have to justify my life to you, Wolf. I don't have to explain what I have done for other people while I have been raising my son alone while I was NOT contributing to one of the most abusive religious cults in the world and while I was not exposing my child to their doctrines and practices. Unlike, you, I was asking JW some simple, logical questions. And further, unlike you, I take MY hat off to the individuals who were strong enough to get the hell out of that cult madness and not support it in any way shape or form as soon as they were possibly able. My respect goes to those who had to leave alone, sometimes in the middle of the night, under fear of retribution, because they knew at a very young age that the Family was wrong and dangerous. I also respect those who have the strength and unselfishness to do something about the egregious acts which were committed to children all over the world by this cult for years, not those who speak for the cult, cover-up the acts of the cult, criticize those who are trying to get something done due to those critical individuals own personal problems or selfish ends or those who sit around this website questioning the experiences of those who suffered under that cult, when they themselves have little idea of which they speak. Wolf, I used to actually read your comments through until they got so far fetched and bizarre and made so little sense that I stopped. I have rarely ever seen a comment from you that contributed in any way more than to run out from behind your computer and throw a rock and run right back and hide under another one. You might try doing something with your life to gain yourself some credibility rather than just sit around criticizing those who have in order to make yourself feel more adequate. Nothing I can say is ever going to increase your credibility or the size of your wiener. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From exister
Friday, March 19, 2004, 19:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ah, so you have a bad history with the press. Don't let your beef with journalists cloud your judgement.
"Like I said, it doesn't seem like any criminal act has taken place. That's why I say leave them alone and go after the real criminals. Do you disagree with that?"
I do disagree with that. As far as I am concerned our entire upbringing was a criminal act. We were all raised in an environment that oversexualized us at a very early age. From dudu's description this is still happening in the Family. The sooner the whole farce falls apart the less chance there is that my little brother will have to offer up his "spirit vagina" to Jizzus when he turns 14 in 2 year's time.
"from the looks of it, it doesn't seem like the Crossmans have anything to hide"
Whether or not they have anything to hide is irrelevant. If people will read what dudu writes then his subjects are fair game. The fact that the public is interested means that the Crossmans are worth scrutinizing. That is the beauty of the free press. I don't fear them because my life is not worth writing about. Weirdos like the Crossmans and all other CMs need to be harrassed and scrutinized until they stop subjecting their kids to the damaging environment that the Family will always be. On the other hand if they really have nothing to hide like you say then they have nothing to fear from the press.(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Friday, March 19, 2004, 21:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Right....
Now see, I was under the impression that you were a level headed person. I like a lot of what you've had to say on this site. This doesn't seem like the usual you.
Oh well, open mind or not, you have a right to believe what ever you like.
I cannot agree with you when you say that people who don't believe the way you do are "weirdos" and that they should be harrassed and scrutinized. True, the Family's beliefs rank somewhere near "Insane" on my scale, but I am in no place to judge.
I agree that the way we were raised is criminal in many aspects, but I believe it is equally criminal to lump everyone into the same pot. I just don't feel it's right after growing up in a one-shoe-fits-all environment, to turn around and do the same to the group I condemn.
I never said that I've had bad experiences with the press. I apologize if I wasn't clear about that and what I said lead you to jump to that conclusion. I have had bad experiences with nosy people who don't do their due dilligence as far as research goes. In Dudu's case, it seems he/she (I will opt for "he") is fairly biased as does not believe what the Family members invloved have to say.
I mean, if Dudu HAD done his research properly it would be clear to him that FFing is no longer practiced by anyone in the Family.
Again, I will clarify for you, exister, that I have nothing against investigations and journalism so long as it is performed professionally and unbiased.
In my humble opinion, tabloid journalism at this point only muddles the waters in the quest for justice.
I will now let you take the last word...(reply to this comment) |
| | From exister
Monday, March 22, 2004, 10:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't understand why so many people on this site are self righteously martyring themselves for justice. It's as if you are trying to remain on the high moral plain that the Family taught to you sit on, except this time you are decrying the Family instead of the System. I guess patterns of though (or non-thought) die hard.
Do you think that after an entire childhood of being told what to think and feel I am going to hold back just so the more hung up among you can continue to think of me as level headed? Fuck all that noise! I will be dead soon, but before that day comes I will freely hate, love, scrutinize, decry, expose, scandalize, harrass, provoke and whatever the hell else suits my fancy.
Let me toss out another incendiary term that is popular these days: appeasement. That is what someone engages in when they hold their adversary in too high a regard and/or are just a wheenie. I don't believe in appeasing the Family or in negotiating with them or in offering them some quaint idea of justice. They are an absurd aberration that has brought nothing but pain and evil to those they have touched. All I am interested in is their demise as an organization by any means necessary. If tabloid harrassment helps bring this about then hurray to the National Enquirer. If the failure of their septic system brings it about then hurray to bad plumbing.
You can keep your high brow ideas journalistic integrity and fair treatment. Since when has life been fair anyway?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from sailor
Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 14:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
I lived with Tim and Rene Crossman for about four years. I have to say that Tim Crossman is one of the most laid back, accepting, cool Family member I know. He and his family would definitely not be involved in FFing. The Crossman family was one of the nicest families that I lived with when I was in the Family. I never say any abuse when I lived with them and I definitely never saw any FFing.
(reply to this comment)
| from venus_fly_trap
Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 14:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
FFing is supposedly no longer practiced in TF. It is possible that some small group of members are attempting to begin the practice again. But I do not believe it is condoned by the leadership. Especially with all the negative media they are and will continue to experience. I would however be more inclined to believe it is simply some horny teenage girls with over sexualized sexual appetites. Growing up in a sexual environment makes boundaries almost obsolete. You may find that you simply uncover this and embarass some teen girls that do not know any better...
(reply to this comment)
| from cassy
Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
I met Timothy and Renee 2 1/2 years ago when I was living in Hungary. I can confirm that they are part of the Children of God/Family, however, I don't know enough about them personally to give much detail into their specific lives. I do know that deception is used in practise, and that they would lie about how many people live in the house with them to police. I would show up at odd times and perhaps even watch who went in and out in a matter of a week.
(reply to this comment)
| from xhrisl
Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 03:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Your case presents an interesting dilemma.
The organization you are investigating has a substantiated history of prior abuse. However, with regard to any individual’s involvement within such a movement the merits of the individual’s actions must be judged separately from that of the organization as a whole. This is not to say that a person can lay with dogs and not get up with a few fleas. Nonetheless, there seem to be some holes with the chain of evidence presented in your article, as such clarification would be helpful to any individual seeking to form an educated opinion. For instance, how did you come ascertain the “facts” of the young women’s sexual histories?
As a mental health paraprofessional who works with juvenile males in the same type of setting you have described, reports of incidents such as you are reporting are not infrequent even in sexually segregated facilities. There are several reasons for such allegations within the mental health sector when dealing with adolescent males, the primary motive in most cases is attention seeking behavior meant to:
a). Garner status from peers.
b). Elicit sympathy from caregivers.
c). Facilitate transfer to another facility.
While I cannot vouch for either side, I recommend that in your investigations you perform a cost/benefit analysis from the perspectives of both parties and see who has the most to gain or lose consequent of the allegations. In addition, I would delve into the lack of statistical prevalence supporting the ever-popular myth of nymphomania and predatorial sexual behavior in the human female. This is not meant to discount your suspicions, only to offer caution. While, cases of aggressive sexual behavior are much less common in adolescent females than in males, they do none the less exist and are most often found in young women who themselves have been victims of sexual abuse.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From night_raver
Friday, March 19, 2004, 12:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Chris, I must say I am impressed. To Doo-doo, I know there have been incidences such as this, but this 'investigation' is kind of sloppy to say the least. I mean, a 13 yr-old MALE boasts about being offered sex by the parents of a foreign (hence desireable) teenage girl??? C'mon now, quite alot of virgin teenage males boast about sex with multiple females their age -- most that I know would do so before admitting they were a virgin.
Then yr proof: "This accusation comes as no surprise, as two of the minor girls living in Family member Tim Crossman's house (possibly his daughters) aged 15 and 17 are known to have had sexual relations with several men and boys, a fact that is denied by Tim Crossman and his wife, Renee."
I'm sorry, but I have this aversion to dogmatism, do you have medical evidence, photos, or something?? And if you "know" because of witness testimony, are they 13 yr-old males also??
While I know incidences such as these have happened, I also knew the Crossmans and never saw anything close to that; of adults I knew, Tim was probably the closest person in TF to someone standing up for 2nd generation rights.
There are people who were hurt in TF in those ways, I've seen it. But to do such a sloppy tabloid style piece of "investigative" journalism is an insult to those who actually suffered abuse because if people can see through your garbage, they'll likely doubt others on this site who have real experiences(reply to this comment) |
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