Jerseygirl, October 25, 2002, 16:19
"Tell me all your thots on God"--NOT!!
I'm just wondering what's with the bum-rush on religion? I understand everyone trying to wax philosophical and all, but didn't we get enough of it in TF? It's getting a little old.If there are as many atheists on this site as there claim to be,seems there would be a lot less "god talk". If anyone wants to pound me over this--it's all good, "cause I got one hand in my pocket and the other one is giving the peace sign!"  (reply to this post)

Anthony, October 25, 2002, 20:17
God Lyrics
Jerzy, you'd better get right with god, quit doing your own thing...he's tiered of it!
(reply to this post)

Holon, October 25, 2002, 22:38
Thank's Anthony
Now,I've got that stupid sone in my head.
(reply to this post)

JoeH, October 25, 2002, 19:20
you're right
I've noticed Christians getting a lot more zealous lately. They yell and scream on campus, in plazas, even in the computer labs. It's so annoying, it's like where's the rotten tomatoes when you need them?

Still ripping off song lyrics I see?
(reply to this post)

Jerseygirl, October 26, 2002, 14:50
Fruits and veggies
I think it would be safe to say that the rotten tomatoes have all been donated to the homes on "market run".

Still being sarcastic I see?
(reply to this post)

lol, October 26, 2002, 02:13

hahahaha
(reply to this post)

A Poster, August 16, 2002, 01:51
good help site
A site for people who have been raped, sexually abused, incested with some good referrals is www.rainn.org
They also have a free 1-800 # listed there that is open 24/7. Check it out  (reply to this post)

Andrew, May 15, 2002, 14:15
Results from the Conference
This one goes out to all of you who contributed with your thoughts and views in response to the add that I posted a few weeks ago on www.Movingon.org .
The conference went well and we’ve received positive responses from different individuals and organizations to our presentation. Here is an example of how you all were received:
“I want to express again, that you have been the most interesting people for me on the whole conference. I love you, for what you do to help the children and youth. Please let me know if I can do something to support your work.
Having been a short time member of the CoG myself, I watched them the last 25 years and read almost all the Mo-letters. Therefore I feel a lot of empathy for Andrew and the young woman (whose name is not in my mind).
Andrew, if you can and will: please let me know about your life, your coming-out, and your problems, questions, beliefs, plans... I am sure, that I can only learn from you. Your are the experts today and it is a shame, they did not give you more attention, respect and time to talk on the conference.
But I want to do so. I need your information to be prepared for people who come to our home.
All my best wishes for you and your work and life!”

Here is what we presented:

SAVE THE CHILDREN’S PROJECT “GO-ON”

Helping second-generation ex-members enter society after leaving Isolated Religious Communities/New Religious Movements (IRC/NRM)

Turid Berger (project leader)

First of all I want to thank you for inviting us to this seminar.



We are: Angelina Dyke and Andrew McMillion who are second-generation ex-members of The Family. At the present they are both students at the University in Oslo. They will speak for themselves later.



I am, Turid Berger, the leader of the Norwegian project “Go-on”. My professional background is as a family mediator and attorney-at-law.

There are two more members working in the project, Randi Enes and Ellen Kartnes. Their expertise is as skilled social workers, with many years experience within child-care, Civil Service and local administrations.

The entire trio is working part-time on the project.

*******************

The project “Go-on” was a pilot project lasting for two years, and terminated in the end of December 2001.

Young people who had left ”The Family” initiated the project.

In the summer 1999 some of them managed to meet with the Minister of Education and Research. The Minister promised them some funding.

The next step was to find someone to carry out a project. They then met with Save the Children, Norway.

As you probably know Save the Children is a non-governmental organization working for Children’s Rights. From this perspective (children’s rights), Save the Children found the subject area very interesting, and entered into a co-operation with Ellen, Randi and myself.



Since the very beginning we have been in close contact with the initiators. And further on we have also had frequent contact with all the others who have called upon us.
This close contact has given us unique insight in their struggle for establishing themselves as independent individuals in the society.
The reason why the Ministry supports this project is because we have focused throughout on the rights of the child, and because Save the Children Norway is in charge of it.

*******************

The objectives of the project have been:

First of all to give practical help to those who needed such assistance. The starting point was to help them obtain their rights in the Norwegian society. This has been the most challenging part of the work. Both those who have left isolated religious communities abroad and those who have left such groups in Norway, were not equipped with the knowledge that was needed to orientate themselves in society. Worse than that, the authorities met them with skepticism and disbelief, and knew nothing about the subject area.

Secondly, our job would be to collect information on the subject.

And thirdly, from our experience in the project, to advise the Ministry what to do ahead.

During these two years, in fact nearly three years, we have had personal contact with more than 150 persons. Most of them were between 18 and 30 years of age, some younger and some older.

Several are parents themselves, struggling with their parenthood.


They have left or have been expelled from different religious communities. Some are Norwegian communities only, and some are international. The group ranges from satanic movements to Pentecostal congregations.

We have been in contact with different professionals: historians, sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists, psychiatrists, social-workers, school-leaders, teachers, child-care workers, doctors, health centers, job centers, Social Security offices, etc. We have attended different meetings and seminars, and are in cooperation with cult-experts.

We have looked for literature, researches, articles etc. on children in religious communities. The books we have collected are mostly about adults. Some articles focus on children. Most of them are about sex abuse accusations and child custody disputes. And we have surfed on Internet.

We have also been in contact with the leaders of four different religious communities. And they welcome us to talk to children in their community about Children’s rights.


*******************

As you understand, the project has not been a research project. We have listened to those who have contacted us, and followed their requests.

What did we find ?

Shortly I will say that several articles in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child have been violated. In between we have functioned as coaches.

The most important violations are against children’s right:
To form and express their own views, and that their views are given due weight. (article 12).


To freedom of statement, that includes the right to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kind (article 13).

To freedom of thought, conscience and religion (article 14).

To enjoy the highest attainable standard of health and treatment (article 24).

To education that develops the child’s personality, talents and mental and physical abilities to their fullest potential. The education shall among other things prepare the child for responsible life in a free society (articles 28 and 29).

To rest and leisure, to engage in play and activities appropriate to the child’s age, and to participate freely in cultural life and the arts (article 31).


Several of our contacts have also been exposed to punishable offences; Such as spanking, isolation, humiliations, sexual abuse and other cruelties like those several of you already have been speaking about.

As I mentioned earlier, there are few books on the subject, and most of the professionals know less than little about the challenges those meet who try to settle in the society after having lived all their life in an isolated religious community.

********************

Our experience is that leaders in isolated religious communities as well as the leaders in mainstream Christian congregations speak more about parent’s rights than children’s rights.

We have a vital discussion in Norway at the present – about exemption from mandatory education in religious and ethical subjects. Parents, teachers and politicians all talk about their own opinion. Nobody talks about how a child shall be able to form their own opinion so they can choose at the age of 15, weather they want to have the same religion as their parents, another religion or maybe non at all.

The adults refer to the European Convention on Human Rights, which among other things establishes parent’s rights to demand that their children receive a religious or philosophical education according to the parent’s belief.
But…
The freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs is limited… it must not violate other peoples fundamental rights and freedom. Children are also “others”.

******************

The project is now in a new phase:

We have given our recommendation to the Ministry. And we recommend focusing on information and education on all levels.

We have not yet received the final answer, but are continuing working as if they will accept the suggestions.

*******************

There are insufficient statistics on the subject in Norway, so we do not know the dimension of the problem.

We know that about 300.000 persons receive Government grant as religious communities outside the State church, and approximately 100.000 more are registered in religious communities outside State Church who do not receive Governmental grant. Besides these I would guess that there are even religious communities that are not at all registered.

We do not know the number of children under the age of 18 years in these groups.

The main part of Norway’s population has been homogeneous until after the 2end World War. It is therefore a new experience for us to really look into this complex area.



It would therefore be of utmost use if you who have had such “activities” in your countries for longer periods of time, and also have a greater population, could share your expertise with us, and help us to find more out about:

Researches or systematic knowledge on how the individuals who are born in, and have grown up in isolated religious communities, adjust to their new position in society at large; how they create meaning and coherence in their lives when they try to acclimatize themselves to an unfamiliar society.

Finally I want to say:

Some times during this nearly three years I have heard stories that have made me furies and in despair. And I have wanted revenge on behalf of those who have suffered. But they do not want revenge themselves! First of all they want to GO ON with their lives. And they very much want their parents to approve their choice.

For the group of people that we have met it has been most useful to look at their potentials and not look at themselves as victims.

This is food for though, ladies and gents.


(That was the portion of the leader of “Go-On”, here is some of what Andrew had to say as well as quotations from you all.)


”We feel it is appropriate at a conference on children and cults to suggest a
path forward. All those who feel with and understand the plight of children
whom have grown up in cults and have exited must agree that there is a need for
structure during their exit and transitional period. Go-On in Norway has given
Norwegian Citizens just that and we propose that others engaged in this area--
as all of you are--do your utmost to establish a guidance center in your
respective countries to aid such as fall under this category.
Such a center can make the difference between life and death, successful and
useful members of your society or a loss and expense. A short term investment
from the side of government and/or NGOs can cause the incorporation of these
children back into their culture and nation avoiding the problems that surround
the lack of proper socialization from which they suffer and the obvious result
of that lack—isolation.
We would now like to present a compilation of views of the second generation in
the form of anonymous quotes.

" The end time very well may come and there is nothing I can do to stop it when
it does. But chances are that I will live the rest of my life and die before it
happens...I will not hang about, not studying, not living, not soaking up life,
waiting for some crisis. Again, what a negative existence for me."

"The Family is a law unto itself. It never turned over known child abusers to
the authority but felt that the ultimate punishment was to excommunicate them
from the group. Of course those people were free to re-join on babe's status
and once again be a part of the group, forgiven and forgotten."

"It is discouraging for second generation x-members when they read statements
put forth by The Family's leadership trying to portray the movement as an
innocent Christian missionary organization, and when we see that the "experts"
are so easily fooled by the facade that is hereby portrayed."

" Preaching heaven while being so negative about other human beings, either
because you were an obstinate teenager caught up in the rebellion of the day,
or because your parents and some “prophet” told you to. Argh. I’m going to live
there and it’s gonna take years to get over the negativity I was fed my whole
life. America is a big monster in my subconscious and I’ve never even lived
there! How dare Christians teach their children to hate!"

" They call themselves Christians, and for that reason they have a
responsibility to do their utmost to right wrongs. That’s what they teach.
That’s what they’re being expected to follow through on but they never have and
never will. I am just one of the thousands of people that have been fucked over
by them and I can attest to the sad fact that the chosen of god don’t apologize
because they are above it. Somebody’s gonna pay for what happened to...all the
other girls. What you meet out comes back to you-it’s the law of the universe-
and there’s a whole lot of bad stuff waiting to return on the heads of a lot of
people. I don’t care if the Family wants to ignore their shit. Doing wrong in
God’s name or with good intentions doesn't make it right and doesn't absolve
the guilty from being compelled to retribution. I have full faith that a day
will come when we’ll all be sorry for the things we pretended never happened."

" To me, what Berg, Mama Maria, Queen Peter, and yes, Grant, have done is just
as vile and horrific as the dirty deeds of some serial ax murder because of how
it has traumatized the lives, and permanently scared the consciences of
countless Family children."

" Did you know that I only know one X-member girl that wasn't sexually abused
at least once as a child! I swear to god--and that's not something to joke
about. (One hopes that at the very least these people might be discovered and
feel mortified for the tiniest fraction of a second. Excuse the human in me...
Some of them probably feel, as many of us do, that they cannot really be held
accountable for what they did when they weren't in their "right mind", but in
some brainwashed Twilight Zone state. Regardless however, one needs to feel
vindicated, especially if you always blamed yourself for the misadventure. I
think I could officially forgive the men involved in my cases if they
materialized into faces and were truly sorry. But so long as they remain black
hole memories, they will ever be [evil doers].

On Liminality (being in-between society and the Family):

"I feel that the Family has caused much harm in the lives of young people by
not properly preparing them for life, giving them the false impression that
they wouldn't really need an education and nothing could be better to do with
themselves then to be a missionary. This didn't take into account the fact that
some children may have had other desires and dreams for their life. When those
children grew up and left, they often left with little support, little money,
little help. Many times their parents were still in the group and the child had
to forge for themselves in a world they were ill-equipped to handle."

" In the past two years I went through periods of intense anger and blame,
trying to find someplace to set down the searing pain, freeing my hands to feel
life in all it's textures and temperatures. I went through so many stages. It
kind of felt like these science fiction movies where the alien has the ability
to take on the appearance of anything it sees or touches, and when it is in its
last dying moments, it quickly morphs through everything it every mimicked,
finally appearing as its true self in death. In the end, far from dying I found
just me was what I liked best. I didn't have to explain why I had been just me
all those years, or blame someone or something for me not fitting the mold."

" In many respects I suppose that growing up the way has made me a stronger
person, but I certainly didn't choose the easy way out, and sometimes I can’t
help but wonder if things hadn't been less problematic if I’d just stayed on
the inside, content with looking out. But then I seem to attract adversity, and
besides, I was never really on the inside, just like I’ll never really be on
the outside, you’ll find me floating in those fuzzy gray zones, in between."

" They speak so much about "the Light" and "bringing people to the light". Did
you ever notice how many weirdo's the group attracts or how much they dwell on
the "enemy" and "rebuking the demons and the devil" and "protection"? I wonder
if secular children regularly grow up with even half of the fear that I did?
Fear of those I'm supposed to trust and love, fear of any and all dark, fear of
being alone, fear of certain colors. Later on (things I'm now trying to get
over) fear of failure, fear of opinions of others, fear of not being right or
not being accepted by the whole. Fear, fear, fear. There was always so much of
it."

How it affects them long after they've left:

" How these people brainwashed my mother and ruined her life has made my life
difficult as well. In the family we lived off of other people and when we
finally got out we still had to live off of other people's generosity...It's
pretty embarrassing to have try and not lie to my friends about why I have 8
brothers and sisters and half of us are from different fathers. My mother must
look awful in their eyes and my whole family strange. Then they wonder why I
don't talk to my dad any more, well if they only knew that he has his own
family across the globe and probably doesn't even know about his "other"
children. To sum it up, it's all an embarrassment, for myself and my family.
I feel isolated, like I can never tell someone the actual truth about what went
on in the family, they wouldn't understand. The incidents that occurred while
in the COG are ridiculous, absurd, and degrading! I wish I could pull my
other "brothers and sisters" out of there, but with a convinced and brainwashed
father, who knows if they'll ever make it out. They'll never get an education
and will be forced to stay in the family because of their dependence on them.
I wish there was a way someone could dismantle the group and stop the silly
nonsense about the end time and their role in it."

" A brilliant SGA [second generation adult] made some interesting observations
to me. Every Family member of the first generation bears responsibility for the
abuse suffered by thousands of SGAs. We may not all be guilty of criminal acts,
but we are all responsible for actively supporting a wicked organization. We
all read the... numerous letters about child sex...and we kept sending in our
tithes and inheritances. We maintained the regime that oppressed the children
in our care. Every single adult in the Family was responsible.
This sounds like collective guilt, but it is really collective responsibility.
Every adult Family member has sworn several unconditional pledges of loyalty
and fealty to Maria. They have pledged to believe her unquestioningly, all her
denials of wrongdoing. They continue to support her financially. So, in my
mind, there is a point where they become responsible and accountable for the
sins of the organization. As time goes on, there are fewer and fewer "innocent"
Family members. They are assisting in a massive cover-up of heinous crimes
against thousands of young people raised in the group.
It is serious. Thousands of lives have literally been destroyed by the Family.
And kids growing up in the group are being screwed up as we speak by the
horrible doctrines that they are force-fed day and night. Screwed up kids will
continue to exit the Family for years to come. Especially as now they will be
denied a decent education."


From a court case the Family settled in California:

" It wasn't the leadership that was abusing me it was the leadership who let it
go on, and slapped my perpetrators wrist, if that, at times they did nothing at
all except send me at the age of 8, 11, and 13 to confront my perpetrator. They
wouldn't even go with me, I faced them alone only to be intimidated and
humiliated by them once more...
My brother who was 16 yrs old just committed suicide after the family had there
fun with his life. I have 4 other brothers and sisters that are still in and I
can't stand by and watch it happen to them...
there are so many that are there and that have been devastated or will be
devastated when they realize that they have been giving their dedication and
loyalty to a pervert who used them to further his own cause and now two sick
fucks have taken his place. I believe a court case would do one very positive
thing for both us and those still in the process of leaving, it would validate
and it would put the responsibility on the Family instead of on the victims
shoulders. So many of us have had guilty consciouses about pointing the finger
at these child molesters but here's the real deal, they wanted us to think it
was ok that they did these things and then when they got caught they tore some
pages out of a book and said "we've changed" Do you really think that after 20
years of indoctrination all it takes is saying ok don't read that any more and
lets take those pages out. That is not taking responsibility, and I will tell
you what I told the leadership that came to that court case, when some one is
violated (especially a child) and you do nothing about it, that makes the
victim believe it wasn't wrong, and essentially that is what you are saying, if
you don't say this is wrong and bad then what you are saying is that it is
good. And with something like this that has the power to devastate lives by
just saying it is wrong is not enough, the evil doers must be punished. Not out
of some sort of revenge motive, but rather to validate that what they have done
is wrong both for the victim and the offender.
By the way this court case happen 5 years ago and the charter was out and the
Family had already "changed" or so they said, but they were still more than
willing to harbor a child molester, and still are...
I guess what I am trying to say is that putting together a class action suite
against the family would be for many more reasons than just revenge for those
that have already left, it would be more for those that are still there and
need protection. Because the Family hasn't changed they are still as sick as
they ever were, and there sickness lies not just in encouraging these acts of
violence against children but also not protecting the children and then
fighting the children or SG's when they realize they have been wronged and lied
to. Because lets face it most of us have given up and gotten past the abuse, it
is the lies that still haunt us and confuse us. I have three sisters that have
left and one brother who died trying. It was the confusion and guilt that they
had planted that finally ate away what was left of him, and I can't stand by
and watch it happen again...
That is my hope, that we can give the second and third generation of children a
fighting chance, even though some of us are still quite young ourselves. "

On leadership:

"Because in order to survive in the Family I was going to have to convince
myself that I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I deserved everything I got, even if it
came out of left field. I was nothing but the dust of the earth, lower than a
dung beetle, and I just had to suck it up and somehow come out on top. Oh, and
lets not forget, keep all the anger inside, not talk to anyone about it or let
my peers know how much I was hurting, not even my husband. He had to be on the
shepherd's side, so I had no one. He felt trapped between wanting to be my
shoulder to cry on and having to uphold the judgment of the leadership. That's
nowhere for a marriage to be. When there's nobody else, you're supposed to be
able to count on your mate. There are few feelings worse than that of your only
love acting cold to your tears."

"The Family and Family leadership have not meant to harm. It is not an evil
organization and the people in the Family are not evil people. Most of them
are at heart, good people who are trying to do their best to live their
lives in the way that they think is right for them & for their families.
Life in the Family is not always easy and many members remain in the Family
at great personal sacrifice because it is a cause that they believe in. As
whole, the Family has done a lot of good and it has helped a lot of people.
But somehow in the middle of trying to do good, they have become like the
Biblical example of Jesus on the cross "He saved others, but himself he
could not save". They have helped many people outside of their organization
through their relief and humanitarian programs, and in the process they have
screwed up so many of their own children.

From the foundation of the Family onward, the leadership did not take into
account the fact that a good portion of their children would not want to
remain in the Family. They didn't (and still don't) see the need for
advanced education because Jesus was going to (and still might) return any
day. They didn't see the need for secular socialization because
"fellowshiping with unbelievers" might tempt their youth to the evils of
the world. They did not realize that children and young teenagers do not see
and understand the world and adult concepts the way that adults do, and many
children lost the innocence of childhood and the right to just be children
because of it.

The Family has seen some of the problem and has made steps to adjust
policies that adversely affect children in the group. But they haven't taken
this far enough and unless they do, the Family will continue to churn out
unadjusted children."

The beneficial side of raids or "persecution":

"Because of persecution, raids and court cases the Family has changed things to
make a better situation for their children, but they seem to forget that those
changes were forced on them from the outside, and promote that they are a good
group for their youth because they really care. The truth is, if those changes
hadn't been forced, the group would probably be carrying on today as it did
years ago. It's a scary thought."

"The benefits of the raid were definitely substantial; I met my grandparents
for the first time, which was extremely exciting for me because I did not know
what grandparents really were, I knew who Grandpa was but not what personal
grandparents were. I have recently learned that they had been looking for my
parents and us kids for quite some time and because of the publicity of the
raid were finally able to track us down. Another was a lot more difficult but
still very beneficial. I’m not sure exactly why but after the raid families
were chosen to go off and stay in campgrounds for a while and my family was one
of them. But we were not just going to stay temporarily in a campground but
rather kicked out of the...home. This was very good for me because the first
time in as long as I could remember I was not with a million other families and
I did not have to wait till every Sunday to see my parents... I was slowly
introduced into a new world which was very painful but I am very glad that it
happened and be it not for the raid we may never have gotten out of the homing
system...I tried very hard to put this behind me and have finally decided to
give up and to just openly accept that it happened."


It is our experience in dealing with all sides involved in cults, be it
apologists, anti-cult activists, or cult leadership themselves that all agree
on the point that progress needs to be made in the area of helping second
generation ex-cult (we use the word isolated religious communities or IRCs)
members through their transition into society at large.
It is our view that due to the polarization between the different sides
involved, such efforts have been sidelined and no cooperation to achieve such
aid has been established.
Despite the findings of Lois Kendall that the second generation has higher
levels of anxiety, anger, dissociation and psychological stress Than the first,
we maintain and have shown that if given the proper help at the crucial liminal
period, these problems can be remedied. These children and young adults can
become ”normal” persons.
We have tried to focus on the positive sides of the lives of the second
generation and have found a number of similarities with TCKs (Third culture
Kids. See www.tckworld.com). When presented with their strong sides, self-
confidence is boosted and paths forward begin to arise in their minds. They
stop viewing themselves as victims and begin to find their potential and
identity, and can eventually become productive members of society. “

Interwoven with my section was Angelina's section which is as follows:

ON TIME PERSPECTIVE

Many who have been born and raised in an ICR have a completely different perspective on time than society at large.
Those of us who have been raised in an apocaliptic cult have been raised with the notion that the world will end within our lifetime. Consequently we have never pictured ourselves getting old. This is one reason that long-term education seems, initially, to be a waste of time.

Results of this can be (among other things):
*Unrealisticly high goals or expectations for ourselves
*We often fell compeled to ”catch up”, and do it all in one go
*Difficulty in making long term plans and following through
*Short attention span
-Education
-Keeping appointments
-Following through with a therapy or even starting
-Living in one place for an extended amount of time
-Joining the army and in some cases quitting half way through

Turid Berger was surprised to find that this fenomena was not limited to those who grew up in an environment where we were always moving, but also to those who grew up in one country and attended one public school

REGARDING SEXUAL ABUSE

I wanted to comment on the amount of time that was spent discussing sexual abuse of children at this seminar.
There is an incredible amount of research done on the results of sexual abuse of children. This is not a recent phenomena and neither is it confined to sects and cults.
For those of us who are 2nd generation ex- IRC members there are issues that have a much more profound effect on our lives than the sexual climate we were exposed to and there are far fewer ”experts” who have a knowledge of what we are refering to.
Lois Kendalls research indicated that sexual abuse didn’t make a significant difference in a second generation former cult members psychological distress after leaving. In other words distress was just as high in those who hadn’t been sexually abused as for those who had.
An example of this is the fact that most of us were raised with a set of values that condemned such qualities as pride, self-esteem and independance as vices or sins, when they ere precisely the qualities one needs to be successfull in society at large."

In addition to this I spoke on the topic liminality, the lack of true experts, our opinion on the “experts” in the field, and how the second generation really are the experts and haven’t been referred to enough.


We made good contact with another second-generation ex-IRC member, Lois Kendall, who has done/is doing her doctoral research on ex-IRC member. She had lots of interesting ideas and statistics that I will try to send links to once I get a hold of.
Here is a portion of the suggested reading she sent me:

Langone, M.D. (1993) Ed. Recovery from cults. Help for victims of
psychological and spiritual abuse. Norton & Company. New York.

A good book to read for former members of IRC's which does included a
chapter on those raised in groups is:-
Tobias, M.L. & Lalich, J. (1993) Captive Hearts, Captive minds.

Clinical work with children in cults has been done by,
Singer (1995), a psychologist from the University of California, who has
worked with children raised in these groups in her book includes a
chapter on children raised in NRM's. She includes the effects on the
children once they reach adult hood.
Singer, M.T. & Lalich, J.(1995) Cults in our Midst. San Francisco:
Jossey Bay Publishers.

Gretchen et al (1997) has written a critical perspective on Singers
(1995) work, mainly saying that she is generalising from those seeking
counselling and from those raised in these groups involved in court
cases, which is not represntative of those who have left IRC's as a
whole.
(For more information see: http://www.csj.org)

We also met a lot of the old anti-cult crew from earlier court cases, and lots of people from other countries we couldn’t talk to because of the language barrier.
Also present was a woman, Inge Mamay, who has a help center in Germany and has written, in German, on the second generation of the Family. I am trying to get a hold of this as well, and would like to ask if anyone knows German well enough to translate it. If anyone is interested in helping out with a translation, that would be great. Her web-site is www.wohnhof.com.

We were also contacted by representatives of: http://www.cultinformation.org.uk, http://www.xenu.net, http://www.xenu.net/fair.

Thank you all for your contributions. Please feel free to contact me if there is anything you want to know about specifically at andrew@mcmillion.net .
Until next time,
Andrew



  (reply to this post)

gretchen siegler, October 23, 2003, 00:42
researcherinsearchoftruth
I am referred to as Gretchen et al (1997) who wrote about ISOT. We all look for articles that support our position and disparage those that do not. The information is useless to me unless someone allows me into the ISOT_Not chatroom. I am only in search of truth. Please re-think your position. I, afterall, have no vested interest in supporting ISOT, but feel vunerable at this point about being called to testify in court. I am only in search of truth, and while you believe that I was manipulated by those whom you believe manipulated you, I only seek answers. Ex-ISOT members whom I knew and who want to contact me are more than welcome to do so. Loyal has my address. Shutting me out of the discussion is not a search for truth.
(reply to this post)

UKCathy, May 21, 2002, 05:38
RE: Results from the Conference
Yes, keep up the good work! -You're doing a fantastic job! It's so good to see that something is being done about all of the injustices that have been committed. These abuses should never have happened in the first place.
(reply to this post)

Anaik, May 16, 2002, 11:12
RE: Results from the Conference
Andrew, I think what you're doing is really great.
(reply to this post)

faeriraven, May 16, 2002, 15:03
RE: Results from the Conference
I have to agree w/ Anaik, thank you for stepping out there and taking the time to say what so many of us want to say but don't have the time or the means to.
(reply to this post)

Andrew, May 7, 2002, 13:23
What I have so far
These are the quotes I will be useing at the conference in two days time. If anyone has some more quotes I can use please send them to andrewmc_no@yahoo.com


From The Judgment of Lord Ward (1995)

'The last step will be the hardest. They must denounce David Berg. They must acknowledge that through his writings he was personally responsible for children in The Family having been subjected to sexually inappropriate behaviour; that it is now recognized that it was not just a mistake to have written as he did but wrong to have done so; and that as a result children have been harmed by their experiences...The Family must be encouraged honestly to face up to this shameful period in their history so that those harmed by it, victims and perpetrators alike, can seek to come to terms with it. For an honest memorial to be given to David Berg, this dark side to his character must be revealed.

Anonymous quotes From second generation ex-Family members :

"The lord's statement: "They must acknowledge that through his writings he was personally responsible for children in The Family having been subjected to sexually inappropriate behaviour," is tantamount to saying that abuse did occur within The Family and that the leader was directly responsible for this."

" The end time very well may come and there is nothing I can do to stop it when it does. But chances are that I will live the rest of my life and die before it happens...I will not hang about, not studying, not living, not soaking up life, waiting for some crisis. Again, what a negative existence for me."

"It is discouraging for second generation x-members when they read statements put forth by The Family's leadership trying to portray the movement as an innocent Christian missionary organization, and when we see that the "experts" are so easily fooled by the facade that is hereby portrayed."

" Preaching heaven while being so negative about other human beings, either because you were a obstinate teenager caught up in the rebellion of the day, or because your parents and some “prophet” told you to. Argh. I’m going to live there and it’s gonna take years to get over the negativity I was fed my whole life. America is a big monster in my subconscious and I’ve never even lived there! How dare Christians teach their children to hate!"

" They call themselves Christians, and for that reason they have a responsibility to do their utmost to right wrongs. That’s what they teach. That’s what they’re being expected to follow through on but they never have and never will. I am just one of the thousands of people that have been fucked over by them and I can attest to the sad fact that the chosen of god don’t apologize because they are above it. Somebody’s gonna pay for what happened to Mene and all the other girls. What you meet out comes back to you-it’s the law of the universe-and there’s a whole lot of bad stuff waiting to return on the heads of a lot of people. I don’t care if the Family wants to ignore their shit. Doing wrong in God’s name or with good intentions doesn't’t make it right and doesn't’t absolve the guilty from being compelled to retribution. I have full faith that a day will come when we’ll all be sorry for the things we pretended never happened."

" To me, what Berg, Mama Maria, Queen Peter, and yes, Grant, have done is just as vile and horrific as the dirty deeds of some serial ax murder because of how it has traumatized the lives, and permanently scared the consciences of countless Family children."

" Did you know that I only know one X-member girl that wasn't sexually abused at least once as a child! I swear to god--and that's not something to joke about. (One hopes that at the very least these people might be discovered and feel mortified for the tiniest fraction of a second. Excuse the human in me... Some of them probably feel, as many of us do, that they cannot really be held accountable for what they did when they weren't in their "right mind", but in some brainwashed Twilight Zone state. Regardless however, one needs to feel vindicated, especially if you always blamed yourself for the misadventure. I think I could officially forgive the men involved in my cases if they materialized into faces and were truly sorry. But so long as they remain black hole memories, they will ever be [evil doers].

On Liminality (being in between society and the Family):

" In the past two years I went through periods of intense anger and blame, trying to find someplace to set down the searing pain, freeing my hands to feel life in all it's textures and temperatures. I went through so many stages. It kind of felt like these science fiction movies where the alien has the ability to take on the appearance of anything it sees or touches, and when it is in its last dying moments, it quickly morphs through everything it every mimicked, finally appearing as its true self in death. In the end, far from dying I found just me was what I liked best. I didn't have to explain why I had been just me all those years, or blame someone or something for me not fitting the mold."

" In many respects I suppose that growing up the way I have has made me a stronger person, but I certainly didn't’t choose the easy way out, and sometimes I can’t help but wonder if things hadn't’t been less problematic if I’d just stayed on the inside, content with looking out. But then I seem to attract adversity, and besides, I was never really on the inside, just like I’ll never really be on the outside, you’ll find me floating in those fuzzy grey zones, in between."

" They speak so much about "the Light" and "bringing people to the light". Did you ever notice how many weirdo's the group attracts or how much they dwell on the "enemy" and "rebuking the demons and the devil" and "protection"? I wonder if secular children regularly grow up with even half of the fear that I did? Fear of those I'm supposed to trust and love, fear of any and all dark, fear of being alone, fear of certain colours. Later on (things I'm now trying to get over) fear of failure, fear of opinions of others, fear of not being right or not being accepted by the whole. Fear, fear, fear. There was always so much of it."

How it affects them long after they've left:

" how these people brainwashed my mother and ruined her life has made my life difficult as well. In the family we lived off of other people and when we finally got out we still had to live off of other people's generosity...It's pretty embarrassing to have try and not lie to my friends about why I have 8 brothers and sisters and half of us are from different fathers. My mother must look awful in their eyes and my whole family strange. Then they wonder why I don't talk to my dad any more, well if they only knew that he has his own family across the globe and probably doesn't even know about his "other" children. To sum it up, it's all an embarrassment, for myself and my family. I feel isolated, like I can never tell someone the actual truth about what went on in the family, they wouldn't understand. The incidents that occurred while in the COG are ridiculous, absurd, and degrading! I wish I could pull my other "brothers and sisters" out of there, but with a convinced and brainwashed father, who knows if they'll ever make it out. They'll never get an education and will be forced to stay in the family because of their dependence on them. I wish there was a way someone could dismantle the group and stop the silly nonsense about the end time and their role in it."

" A brilliant SGA [second generation adult] made some interesting observations to me. Every Family member of the first generation bears responsibility for the abuse suffered by thousands of SGAs. We may not all be guilty of criminal acts, but we are all responsible for actively supporting a wicked organisation. We all read the Davidito book, the numerous letters about child sex, the Mene series, and we kept sending in our tithes and inheritances. We maintained the regime that oppressed the children in our care. Every single adult in the Family was responsible.
This sounds like collective guilt, but it is really collective responsibility. Every adult Family member has sworn several unconditional pledges of loyalty and fealty to Maria. They have pledged to believe her unquestioningly, all her denials of wrongdoing. They continue to support her financially. So, in my mind, there is a point where they become responsible and accountable for the sins of the organisation. As time goes on, there are fewer and fewer "innocent" Family members. They are assisting in a massive cover-up of heinous crimes against thousands of young people raised in the group.
It is serious. Thousands of lives have literally been destroyed by the Family. And kids growing up in the group are being screwed up as we speak by the horrible doctrines that they are force-fed day and night. Screwed up kids will continue to exit the Family for years to come. Especially as now they will be denied a decent education."


From a court case the Family settled in California:

" It wasn't the leadership that was abusing me it was the leadership who let it go on, and slapped my perpetrators wrist, if that, at times they did nothing at all except send me at the age of 8, 11, and 13 to confront my perpetrator. They wouldn't even go with me, I faced them alone only to be intimidated and humiliated by them once more...
My brother who was 16 yrs old just committed suicide after the family had there fun with his life. I have 4 other brothers and sisters that are still in and I can't stand by and watch it happen to them.
I understand you have parents that you love and I am thank full that they didn't turn their back on you, but there are so many that are there and that have been devastated or will be devastated when they realize that they have been giving their dedication and loyalty to a pervert who used them to further his own cause and now two sick fucks have taken his place. I believe a court case would do one very positive thing for both us and those still in the process of leaving, it would validate and it would put the responsibility on the Family instead of on the victims shoulders. So many of us have had guilty consciouses about pointing the finger at these child molesters but here's the real deal, they wanted us to think it was ok that they did these things and then when they got caught they tore some pages out of a book and said "we've changed" Do you really think that after 20 years of indoctrination all it takes is saying ok don't read that any more and lets take those pages out. That is not taking responsibility, and I will tell you what I told the leadership that came to that court case, when some one is violated (especially a child) and you do nothing about it, that makes the victim believe it wasn't wrong, and essentially that is what you are saying, if you don't say this is wrong and bad then what you are saying is that it is good. And with something like this that has the power to devastate lives by just saying it is wrong is not enough, the evil doers must be punished. Not out of some sort of revenge motive, but rather to validate that what they have done is wrong both for the victim and the offender.
By the way this court case happen 5 years ago and the charter was out and the Family had already "changed" or so they said, but they were still more than willing to harbour a child molester, and still are, because last I heard they just prayed over Jay and life went on and as far as I know they didn't ask him to leave or send him to jail or excommunicate him or anything, any punishment he got was having to settle the on the terms of our agreement, and give me a break, that was just me that was all I was capable of giving him as far as energy I couldn't waste any more time with Jay, but the Family told me things were so different now things like this don't go on and if they do then the family takes action, there was no action taken by the family against Jay and I know for a fact that my siblings were not and are not the only ones who were hurt by his sickness. And Jay wasn't the only one that came up in that court case either, he was just the only one on U.S. soil.
I guess what I am trying to say is that putting together a class action suite against the family would be for many more reasons than just revenge for those that have already left, it would be more for those that are still there and need protection. Because the Family hasn't changed they are still as sick as they ever were, and there sickness lies not just in encouraging these acts of violence against children but also not protecting the children and then fighting the children or SG's when they realize they have been wronged and lied to. Because lets face it most of us have given up and gotten past the abuse, it is the lies that still haunt us and confuse us. I have three sisters that have left and one brother who died trying. It was the confusion and guilt that they had planted that finally ate away what was left of him, and I can't stand by and watch it happen again...
That is my hope, that we can give the second and third generation of children a fighting chance, even though some of us are still quite young ourselves. "  (reply to this post)

Andrew, May 7, 2002, 11:51
Socialization?
In Many societies the family has the responsibility for socialisation. This has not always been the case within the COG. Although it is true, as the representatives for the COG so vigilantly point out, that education "is the responsibility of the parents" (From "Youth and The family" London 2001), it can be shown that this hasn't always been the case in practice within the group.
If we take the statement by the group regarding their opinion of socialization in 1992, in which is stated:
ISSUED BY WORLD SERVICES ON THE COLLECTIVE BEHALF OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF INDEPENDENT MISSIONARY COMMUNITIES COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS THE FAMILY August 1992


3. Our children are very effectively socialised.
Possibly more than any other children in the world today, our children are very highly socialised. The cooperative communities where our children are raised all strive for moral and social excellence. Living in a missionary community such as ours requires the highest level of sophistication in socialisation, both directly taught and learned by experience. Rules of conduct, fair play, consideration for others, interaction between each other, expressions of love and concern, being a positive influence, being safety-conscious, cooperating and working together with others, sharing responsibilities, courtesy in speaking to others, and a host of other social skills must be highly refined and adhered to in order for a close-knit cooperative lifestyle such as ours to be able to exist and continue to prosper in peace together...
Conclusion
Why are the children of minority religious groups so often the victims of faith-breaking "socialisation" attempts? One only has to look at the history of religious persecution to see that where conflicting ideologies are involved, the children of the smaller, weaker party are often attacked in an attempt to forcibly "change" them to conform to the attackers' beliefs. This is such a universal ploy that the General Assembly of the United Nations addressed this very issue in "The Convention on The Rights of The Child," November 20, 1989, which was signed by all leading nations of the world:
"State Parties shall respect the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion." (Article 14:1)
"State Parties shall respect the rights and duties of the parents and, when applicable, legal guardians, to provide direction to the child in the exercise of his or her right in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child." (Article 14:2)
"Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals, or fundamental rights and freedoms of others." (Article 14:3)
"In those States in which ethnic, religious or other minorities or persons of indigenous origin exist, a child belonging to such a minority or who is indigenous shall not be denied the right, in community with other members of his or her group, to enjoy his or her own culture, to profess and practise his or her own religion, or to use his or her own language." (Article 30) (The underlining is our added emphasis.)
There are many thinly veiled ways to attack the religious beliefs, religious practices and religious freedoms of those who choose to obey God and keep His commandments. Few are as repugnant as State-sponsored repression, police harassment and interference in the lives of peaceful Christian missionary families. Ordering the children of any faith, especially those born and raised in that faith, to be forcibly "socialised" by dictatorial or authoritarian State agencies cannot be tolerated! Yet we have experienced State-appointed agencies ordering children in our religious communities to either "be conformed to this world" or else be punished and persecuted!--What flagrant religious intolerance and what an inexcusable abuse of power, especially in today's supposedly civilised modern society! What rebellion against the very Word of God, which cries out this commandment to all Christians, "Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2). If this contempt for the rights of others is not immediately checked, it will soon know no bounds or restraints. No child of any faith will be safe. We beg you to consider carefully what irreplaceable civil and religious liberties are being thus lost, and stand with us in this battle!

Ironically, three years later Lord Ward concluded that both article 14 and 30 quoted above in the groups defence, had been violated by the group themselves. Furthermore, having lived in The Family when this statement was written I can say that it is a one sided picture of our socialization.
In the pre-charter era the responsibility of socialisation was effectively removed from the parents and was considered a collective responsibility. The norms and sanctions of socialisation were dictated by the top of the "spiritual" chain of command, and were not only expected to be carried out systematically and obediently, but also with enthusiasm and zealousness. This often led to extreme situations for the children involved, and in some cases at least caused "trials" for their parents.
This aspect of the group's "One Wife" philosophy has often been omitted, if not flat out denied, by the representatives of the COG. They try to portray the organization as a loosely affiliated fellowship of individual "non-denominational missionaries" who happen to have similar goals and hopes. As the Honourable Justice Lord Ward points out in his Judgement (1995), the organization has a hard core status called "DO" for disciples only, a second status called "DFO" disciples and friends only, and a "GP" or general public status. Each respective status entails access to a certain classification of information. The portrayal of the organization to each respective class varies from the watered down non-denominational "milk of the word" to the hard core "Revolutionaries for Jesus", "Moses David's 'Gideon's band' ", "God's called out chosen people", or Christ's "One Wife".
For anyone actually growing up within the organization during pre-charter times it was clear where the socialization was coming from. The man know as Moses David in the press, we called Grandpa and our parents called Dad. We were expected to consider his every word as prophetic and priceless. To disobey any of his commandments was an excommunicate offence and unthinkable. If he said the desire for a higher education was "of the Devil" (as he did in some of his final writings called the Tony series) then it became so. If he said that Christ's calling to, "Forsake all that thou hast and follow me" meant to forsake your children or parents "For His sake" then this became policy.
Therefore, when the COG's representatives insist instead that the responsibility for socialization lies with the parents, (as they try to authenticate with such publications as Human Rights Without Frontiers article "The Family, Problem Cult or Harmless Christian Fellowship?" www.hrwf.net ) and that this is explicitly pointed out in their Charter(Feb 1995); I feel the need to further accentuate the feelings of so many who lived under their iron rule.
In many situations, especially when the parent(s) had important positions and were in the DO classification, the fact of the matter was that they had next to nothing to do with their child's socialisation. This was often due to the child's separation from its parent(s) by geographical distances, or the constant occupation of the parent(s) in their calling or "ministry work" which was the norm rather than the exception. (A parallel here is the situation of the Hare Krishna boarding schools) The Child would go from one "home schooling" situation to the next, and with it, from one "foster family" to the next.



It could easily be argued that the socialization practice of the COG had two main patterns. One; it taught total dedication, obedience, and reverence to its leader David Berg, (instilling the "machiavellian" fear/love, but above all fear in the minds of its children). Along with this fear, and compounding it, was the inevitable "God is watching your every move" perspective internalized from the start. Second; it taught the one wife philosophy and all its consequences to numerous to number. central perspectives intended to produce desired behaviour from the one wife philosophy are: the desire to follow the lord and submit to his will, (Sheep are the animals one would be like in this context.) [I don't have the time to go into this in depth. But you all know what I'm talking about.]
What I'm getting at is that the focus of the group's socialization was never on scholastic or academic achievement. Rather it aimed at total robotic dedication and adherence to the rules of the group. Those who had interests in such "worldly" directions were considered deviants. When one takes an anthropological perspective on socialization and deviants within societies certain patterns emerge.
Many anthropologists who have studied socialisation have emphasised that examination of child-raising may reveal how a society gradually shapes forms of behaviour and thought in its members.
Deviance from the norm leads to a strong feeling of what Durkheim calls "anomie" or a feeling of alienation which causes the inability to believe in, or live up to, the values of ones society.

As was the case for many of us, the tendency to deceive or flat-out lie to conceal our acquired beliefs or simple desires throughout our teenage years built up. Fear of re-training (systematic internalization of David Bergs norms at special camps and under strict supervision), increased our feeling of anomie.
[No time to finish this one]  (reply to this post)

..., July 27, 2002, 10:14
.
Man, your articles are way too long.
(reply to this post)

sharon, May 7, 2002, 17:11
RE: Socialization?
Great article, Andrew! Just a sugestion--you might want to change the "DO" and "DFO" status to "CM" and "FM" as they now refer to themselves.
(reply to this post)

Andrew, May 8, 2002, 07:54
RE: Socialization?
Good point. I left before they changed to CM and FM so I'm not used to it yet.
(reply to this post)

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