Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article

from one who knows Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 18:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky did go through a hell of a lot more than 99% of us who left but does that give him the right to be judge, jury, and executioner? There are ways to get revenge without breaking the law. He didn't want to wait it out and let the justice system run its course. He knew he was breaking the law, it was a conscious decision. He knew he would die and wouldn't have to live with the consequenses of his actions, which made his decision to end another life easier. What he went through growing up led him to that point but he still had a choice. And whether the victim is a child abuser or not it's still wrong and should not be excused. Had he not taken his own life he'd be awaiting sentencing and likely the death sentence. Just so that I don't get the same type of responses as Cristina I'll set the record straight. I left TF 6 years ago. I hate everything I was taught and led to believe growing up. I hate the cult and what it stands for, and gladly do my part to help investigators. (reply to this comment)

From vixen Sunday, April 24, 2005, 01:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Perhaps you haven't read the lengthy comments threads on this site regarding Ricky's actions. If you had, I think you would have grasped the fact that very few people here condone what he did. We all know that violence is not the answer and that ultimately Ricky would have been much more effective in his determination to bring his mother and other perpetrators to justice, had he had the strength to stay alive. However, I can clearly see a difference between saying, 'I agree with what Ricky did' and, 'I understand why he did it.' (reply to this comment)

from cri Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:37 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

from cri Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:36 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

from Cristina Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I honestly think that it is stupid to blame a group of some peoples mistakes. He had left a long time ago and was more than old enough to move on. Everyone does mistakes and if there was any abuse well yes, but that happens everywhere and those people aren't there anymore. He was what 30. I think it is childish to accuse others, and that he was just finding an excuse for being bitter and for having a boring life after he left. I've left and yes I had my problems but we all have to face are problems, stand up keep on. I honestly think that all those who are angry at the family are actually jealous, bitter, and mad that they couldn't make it and others could. I mean obviously those in there are happy and if they aren't they will leave. let them live. Grow up, just because you don't know what to do you can sit and be in a-poor-of-me spirit all day, move on, but let those who are happy helping others be happy, you can't expect all to be unhappy and do nothing but accuse others all day. Find I life. (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Saturday, April 23, 2005, 21:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Cristina, have a look at this page: http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Story_of_Davidito After you've looked at the photos and read the text, tell me with a straight face that what is being done to Davidito in those photos is only a mistake. Tell me that it was only a mistake to take the photo. Tell me it was only a mistake to print a couple thousand copies of this book. And, lastly, tell me it was only a mistake to publish it and recommend that Family members "possibly [share] the same kind of gentle love and fun" with their children.(reply to this comment)

From Fish Saturday, April 23, 2005, 18:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Give it a few months, your tune will change.(reply to this comment)

From di Saturday, April 23, 2005, 17:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Regarding your comments about Ricky: Consider the verse, "By their fruits you shall know them"? Isn't it obvious that if Zerby had raised her son in a truly "loving" atmosphere, that love would have come back to her? Wouldn't those 20-some odd years of living in the group his mom was the leader of have had a stronger influence on his life than the few years he was out? Were you masturbated as a toddler, were photos taken of you and stories written about you in sexually inappropriate situations? Was a book of your life and lurid treatment at the hands of an sex-crazed old man and women who blindly followeded him published for thousands to read and model their childtraining after? How can a child be consensual in a sexual relationship? That sort of abuse doesn't, as you wrote, "happen everywhere." The stories on this site are not "poor me", they are "bring justice to criminals." ARE people in TF happy? Or are they stuck? Most especially the young people who have already had kids. It's not easy to leave with a bunch of children to provide for, poor education, and no encouragement or support from those who were your "friends". (reply to this comment)

From agreed Saturday, April 23, 2005, 17:54 (Agree/Disagree?) If memory serves me correctly, Ricky spent the first 25 years of his life in the group, fully a quarter of a century! He was out for something over 4 years.(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, April 23, 2005, 14:02 (Agree/Disagree?) You say "we all have to face are problems, stand up..." That sounds pretty much like what we are asking of Family leadership.(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, April 23, 2005, 12:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes Zerby really made a big fat *mistake* when she allowed her son to be abused by the woman-sue included, in bergs home then berg proceeded to abuse the girls. I can only imagine that instigating Daviditos abuse was to secure his own postion to be able to abuse girls. Zerby and Berg facilated, preped and taught their following to do the same-OUR parents. (reply to this comment)

From Lance Saturday, April 23, 2005, 12:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Haven't you ever stopped and asked yourself why? Why is it that you can't spell, or use punctuation? Why can't you compose a decent sentence? Perhaps it's because the entire organization responsible for your upbringing was more concerned with you growing up to be a docile sex kitten then improving your mind. So sit back and ask yourself if they really care about you; or do they want you to be as dumb as possible so that there is no way in hell you will ever attempt to think differently. I mean seriously! Have you ever heard one of your precious aunties and uncles have a different opinion about Ricky's death?... You know, besides the one that zerby told them to have? Has anyone said "maybe we shouldn't have been masturbating him as a toddler?" "Maybe we shouldn't have been abusing his mind and body for 30 years?" Or here's a better one: "maybe it's all bullshit?" Here's one you'll never here Zerby say in the letters: "Perhaps I had something to do with this?" You won't hear any of these things because they are the questions that responsible, free thinking people ask. Most people on this site know what Ricky did was wrong. But they also know why he did it -wich is a concept you are too stupid to fully grasp.(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, April 23, 2005, 21:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Alright,however it's : "Here's one you'll never hear Zerby say in the letters." (mini-lapse, as your next line proves) Since she doesn't declare where she lives or who her parents are, you might want to consider, that she could be the offspring of parents, whose mothertongue isn't English, making the whole thing(education) even worse.(reply to this comment)

From Lance Sunday, April 24, 2005, 02:26 (Agree/Disagree?) I considered that Christina might not speak english very well; actually that was my first impression. But given her age I'd say she isn't a new disciple, and since english is the common language in the family. I concluded that even if she were born in another country and her parents weren't american and english wasn't their native language she should still have the skills necessary to write properly in english. It makes sense to me. (reply to this comment)

From xolox Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:46 (Agree/Disagree?) If I was to judge by your post, I would say that: you are too young to know, too stupid to find out, and too In the Family still, to be posting here. I think if you were to be raped, (by non family I'm sure), you wouldn't find the whole notion of poiting a finger at your accuser to be childish. If this is something you can't agree with, I suggest a long walk, real late at night, in a dangerous neighbourhood, while dressed like a whore. Oh, and don't forget to take your attitude with you! (reply to this comment)

From Lance Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know about everyone here. But I'm make it a regular habit to see the world through the eyes of an 18 year old girl who can't spell. The human mind exists in many ways that you are PROGRAMMED to not understand; because you are in fact programmed to be stupid(and you're doing a marvellous job of it). You should stop repeating every excuse you've heard from the family and make up your own mind.(reply to this comment)

From Banshee Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Your profile says you're 18. I think that explains it all.(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, April 23, 2005, 10:57 (Agree/Disagree?) This group didn't just make some mistakes. They're abuse of us was intentional and recorded. They continue to lie and accuse anyone who they abused of being the ones in the wrong. It is also extremly hard to leave, going against everything you've ever known, maybe your own family, knowing they will reject you and claim amnesia. They can't be left alone to get away with what they have done. They claim their faith is the best the ultimate place to raise children. Well they need to know that that is not true and alot of people here are able to tell everyone why! (reply to this comment)

from cyborcosmic Friday, February 11, 2005 - 02:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I just sent the Ishiver link to both of my ex-cult parents. I want them to see the effects of our youth with open eyes. It came as a shock for me, maybe because I had hoped, as I do for everyone on this site, for all of us to become stronger than the internal pains of our youth. He was 29 years old. My sister was just 24 when she killed herself. She didn't want vengence, she just didn't want to continue after having been through so much. What happens to us? This chosen extreme is very sad and disturbing, it also shows once again how stronge the force of the pain and rage is in us, and if not otherwise expressed, it can turn into a violent act of suicide or murder. I pray that everyone who has left The Family can find a way to express their hurts and get closure without causing more harm to themselves and their family. I for one know that this is not an easy path. (reply to this comment)

from beachbabe Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 01:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I must admit that it affected me A LOT when I heard about Ricky. I think it was totally wrong what he did, but it definitly isn't all black and white. I can't even immagine the pressure he was under in his childhood, about 10 times what we went through. Anyways with the past aside it just bothers the hell out of me the righteousness. I was sent some material to read from someone still in. I mean I don't care if you're the worst mother in the world if your son shoots himself in the head arn't you going to think 'my God what did I do.' She at least owes it to him to mourn his death. SHe thinks shes some big fucking queen, the closest person on earth to GOd. Shes supposed to be the sweetest caring mother and she doesn't even have as much love as a mother whose a crack whore. She to damn busy trying to be Mother Theresa that she can't even be a mother to her own child! And the sad thing is in their quest to save the world they've made way to many orphans. (in her own word) "once he insisted that he no longer even wanted to hear from us, we respected his wishes. However, even then we wrote him from time to time-on his birthday and at Christmas. We tried to reach out to him. We prayed for him daily. As much as we loved him as a son, we weren't at all happy with what he was doing" He embarrassed her so she couldn't accept him. (reply to this comment)

From SpiritBorn Sunday, February 06, 2005, 06:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Right On(reply to this comment)

from beachbabe Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 01:54 (Agree/Disagree?) I must admit that it affected me A LOT when I heard about Ricky. I have been out for about a year with my husband and kiddos. I think it was totally wrong what he did, but it definitly isn't all black and white. I can't even immagine the pressure he was under in his childhood, about 10 times what we went through. Anyways with the past aside it just bothers the hell out of me the righteousness. I was sent some material to read from someone still in. I mean I don't care if you're the worst mother in the world if your son shoots himself in the head arn't you going to think 'my God what did I do.' She at least owes it to him to mourn his death. SHe thinks shes some big fucking queen, the closest person on earth to GOd. Shes supposed to be the sweetest caring mother and she doesn't even have as much love as a mother whose a crack whore. She to damn busy trying to be Mother Theresa that she can't even be a mother to her own child! And the sad thing is in their quest to save the world they've made way to many orphans. (in her own word) "once he insisted that he no longer even wanted to hear from us, we respected his wishes. However, even then we wrote him from time to time-on his birthday and at Christmas. We tried to reach out to him. We prayed for him daily. As much as we loved him as a son, we weren't at all happy with what he was doing" He embarrassed her so she couldn't accept him. (reply to this comment)

from SpiritBorn Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 17:24 (Agree/Disagree?) No one should ever condone murder-suicide. There is no good reason for such insanity. We should all remember the words of the Apostle John: "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer; and ye know that know murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. There is no Jesus in the Family, there is no Holy Spirit there and one will truly be delivered from them until they are truly born of the Spirit. Pat (reply to this comment)

from rob-t Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 15:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I would like to caution the author(s) of 'From the MovingOn.org Editors regarding the deaths of Ricky Rodriguez and Angela Smith.' regarding their statement. Whilst I understand that it is not prudent to condone violence I believe that you have an obligation to respect Ricky's memory with a firmer appreciation of his actions than "This whole tragedy has come as a great shock to all of us". Are you all that surprised that it has come to this? Does shock genuinely describe the emotion that first ran through your mind when you heard the news? Was it a condemnation of violence that you felt when you watched Ricky's explanation of his thought processes leading up to his violent actions? Or did you like me, think sadly about the inevitability of the tragedy? Did you remember your own feelings of anger at being abused and watching your siblings and friends being abused? Did you relive the anger you felt before you decided to get on with your life? The world is watching. The media have been all over this story. Was Ricky just a depressed kid who used violence because he didn't know any better and no one helped him through his problems? I think not. There was little else he could do. Ricky's explained his thought processes very succinctly despite his random style. For someone about to take his own life, his message was crystal clear: "I am angry for a righteous cause! I am violent because violence is required to deliver justice to my abusers and the abusers of the people I love." The fact that none of us felt compelled to violence to the extent that Ricky did is a measure of our exposure to the perpetrators of the abuse crimes. Ricky was there, he lived it. Do him justice and show him some respect. Instead of condemning violence, highlight the experiences that led him to it. Fill in the blanks, explain to people (the press) what he meant when he used terms that only someone who was there would understand. This is not a call to violence. This is an admonishment of your choice to highlight a stance on violence. Only Ricky can judge his own actions. It's not about whether he did the right thing or not. The fact is he did what he did for reasons that were compelling to him. His cause struck a chord with everyone who understands what he went through. I believe a more appropriate official stance would be to highlight the abuse suffered by Ricky and to highlight the atrocious criminal actions perpetrated by Karen Zerby, Peter and those close to them. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, January 24, 2005, 15:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Rob, thanks for your thoughts. The user posting as “I disagree” is not an editor or administrator of this web site and does not speak for me. Here is a reply from my own perspective and I can tell you why I signed my name to this statement. When I first heard about Ricky I went home from work and cried for two days. I think shock was the emotion that I first experienced, but then it was overwhelming grief. There have been so many losses and so much pain. Over the past few years since this web site has been active, it has been an honour to see the courage and strength of so many people who are succeeding in their lives, despite the odds. It has also been extremely painful to begin to fully understand the depth of grief and hurt that so many of us still feel. While it was extremely unfair to him to be cast so, Ricky was the child we all grew up with. His despair in many ways feels like the culmination of the abuse, pain and anger so many of us experienced and it’s very painful to know that his life and his hope is gone. However, my primary responsibility as the owner of this web site is to protect this space and to continue to provide a forum for people to speak. Even before I could begin to sort through what I felt myself, it was essential to clearly state that this web site does not condone violence. There are many people who would like nothing better than to see this web site closed down and would have certainly used this and some of the ensuing comments as an opportunity to do so if we had said nothing. There are also people who would like nothing better than to distract from the key issue here, which Ricky clearly stated was the abuse of himself, his sister and thousands of children in the Family, and make this into a debate on violence. By clearly saying that we who manage this site do not condone violence, it allows those visiting it to focus on the real issues. I also never met Ricky, and I cannot speak for him the way his friends and wife can. All I can do is to try to ensure that the things he wrote here himself, the facts about his life and the person that many people knew and loved is remembered. Some of us were able to put together a web site to commemorate his life, which was also linked from the home page and which we hope to add to. http://www.movingon.org/ricky (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, January 24, 2005, 10:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi rob-t! I read your post and thought about it for awhile. I struggled with the same thoughts initially when I heard about the tragedy. My thoughts were, "How do I address what happened without downplaying the abuse, injuries and pain Ricky suffered? What position do I take because my first reaction was one of empathy for Ricky due to my understanding and knowledge of similar abuse at the hands of the same cult?" I struggled with how I felt about the violence. I wondered if I condemned it, would I be condemning Ricky and disgarding the terrible things which happened to him which drove him to it? I came to the conclusion in my mind that I felt incredibly sorry for Ricky. I figured, after watching the video, that he felt like he had no other choice, no other way to remedy the wrong done to him and all of us. I think that is a tragedy that he wasn't aware of other non-violent methods of redress. I understand his motivations in what he did. He seems to describe terrible feelings of pain and loss of any hope. He expresses feelings of responsibility to do what he can to bring justice to what happened to him and all of us. Yet, it breaks my heart that he didn't see any other method or hope. They are there, non-violent methods. I don't judge him because we all struggle with our own pain and cannot speak for how it affects someone else. I just feel for him that he didn't know or see any other option. His life had value. It is a great loss that he is gone and could not see another avenue of achieving his goal of bringing justice to the cult and its abusers. I also can separate my feelings about him, my sense of loss over his death and my empathy for his pain and experiences, from my feelings about violence. I do not condone it. I believe in the inherent value of human life. That does not mean I blame Ricky. No, I feel compassion for him and wish it hadn't happened. I have grappled with my feelings about Angela Smith, and I have come to a place where I can feel sorry for her. I know that expressing that feeling may draw the ire of some of my peers. But, I want people to know that even I, one of the more aggressive proponents of bringing this cult's abusers to some sort of legal justice, feel compassion for Angela Smith, one of my peer's sexual abusers. I feel about her like I feel about my mother, pity, especially when she is no longer capable of hurting me or other children. I hope that makes sense and does not upset anyone. I think this tragedy can actually be one of the best and worst things that has happened to the cult. It has helped me and others like me who want to see justice done draw a line in our minds of what that justice entails. I'm not saying I've ever even thought about any violence. I'm not capable of it. Yet, I can here in this situation begin to feel pity for a member of the cult, even an abuser. I had not thought about that before or felt that emotion for them. I read what Kelly (Peter) describes happened to Angela, that she had stab wounds in her arms from fighting before her throat was cut. I am not a heartless, soulless robot who does not feel pity for her when I hear that, who does not think about the fear that must have run through her mind in her last moments. I have come to the conclusion that I can feel that for her despite what she did to Ricky and without judging Ricky. My compassion for human suffering is not a zero sum game in which I have to take away from or blame Ricky in order to feel for Angela. It does not diminish my capacity or desire to see the cult's abusers not answer for their actions. I just know that I do not desire to see them answer in that way, not even Zerby or Kelly. I grapple with these emotions and feelings. I am telling you about them honestly, so you might see that someone like me, who thinks this is an evil cult which has harmed hundreds of children, if not thousands, feels empathy for both Ricky and Angela, which does not stop me from wanting real justice in this matter. I thought about when Ricky talked about Zerby and Kelly's trailer catching on fire. I thought about how I would feel if I heard they died in that way. It wasn't good. I would feel bad. I would feel pity, even for them. I would rather see them stand in a court of law and admit their crimes against children. That would bring me a sense of closure and justice, not more pain. This all doesn't mean that I'm not angered by the ongoing denials by the cult of what happened to us and their ongoing ability to get away with their actions, in my mind. I am most angered when I see one of my dear friends continue to suffer emotionally from the abuse he/she suffered years ago at the hands of the cult. I'm overcome when I read the statements by the cult, made by the very abusers of my friends, trying to deflect and project their responsibility. Yet, I am holding out, knowing we are trying to have a civilization here, that justice, true justice, will be served in the long run. The truth will come out and those responsible will be exposed and, hopefully, have to answer for themselves. I don't want to see that happen through the loss of more life or through more violence, like the kind the cult inflicted on us. I hope this is understandable. I certainly don't mean to downplay anyone's pain. I would like to see an to that pain one day without more added to it. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, January 24, 2005, 11:41 (Agree/Disagree?) *I would like to see an end to that pain one day without more added to it.(reply to this comment)

From rob-t Monday, January 24, 2005, 11:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate hearing how you have reacted and resolved the conflicting emotions that an event like this causes. I guess we're all in a lot of personal turmoil at the moment. It's difficult to deal with this stuff all over again. I can't help but hope that, because of Ricky's actions, people will see that Zerby and Kelly never had serving God on their agenda. If Ricky's death sheds light on their selfish, lustful and greedy nature, perhaps they will lose the reverence and love of those still deluded by their lies.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, January 24, 2005, 12:00 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree. I hope something good comes out of this horrible tragedy. I'm encouraged by all the exposure of the cult I see in the media. I do not think Ricky, his short life and tremendous pain should go unnoticed. Someone, or a few someones, should take responsibility for what he endured as a child which made him the man he was in the video, one without hope. And he was not alone, I believe 28 of us have died at our own hands, very much without hope. Humanity should mourn when life is extinguished without hope and without knowing love or the relief of pain. I know that sounds tremendous, but it is. It is a tremendous tragedy. One that the public should know about. (reply to this comment)

From I disagree Sunday, January 23, 2005, 15:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think you have any right to be telling anyone what their official stance should be. The individuals running this site have decided what they want to say, and they have said it. They do not pretend to represent you or anyone else. If you have something that you want to say, say it, and put your name to it. Write your own goddamn statement. (reply to this comment)

From rob-t Sunday, January 23, 2005, 15:57 (Agree/Disagree?) If your government has an official stance that going to war is a good idea and you are opposed to war, do you have a right to tell them what their official stance should be?(reply to this comment)

From I disagree Sunday, January 23, 2005, 16:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, Moving On is not your government. It is a group of individuals who work together to administer this site. It is a diverse group of people -- many have not met each other. People who post here do so voluntarily. They are not members of a club. MO has no power, nor does it seek any power, over the people who post and read here. They never, in their official statements, claim to represent the broader SGA exmember community. Mo is simply a forum where people with a common past can gather and interact. The last thing anyone needs is another organisation with leaders. The MO statement reflects the views of the people who attached their names too it -- no one else. The SGA exer community is a diverse crowd, holding a wide spectrum of views on many different subjects. I don't think anyone could, or should, try to speak for the "we, the people." I roll my eyes when people do that. Honor the diversity here. Speak from your own perspective. Say "I," unless someone has authorised you to speak for them. (reply to this comment)

From rob-t Sunday, January 23, 2005, 22:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Well said. Alhough I feel you are preaching to the choir. In my letter I clearly state that the opinion is my own and my suggestion that the official stance should have been different is prefixed with the words "I believe". I do not apologise for my remarks and I feel that as editors of a public forum, the authors of said article will appreciate the objective views I expressed. I doubt they would encourage me to shut up or post elsewhere. I understand that they encourage feedback and opinions which differ from their own. I would also encourage you to post under your own name instead of using an anonymous diatribe to lecture me on what I may and may not say on a public forum!(reply to this comment)

From I disagree Monday, January 24, 2005, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) You're right, rob-t. I was too strong there. I apologise -- there was no need for that. Stressful times.(reply to this comment)

from believer111 Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I just don't understand it!! Where do the members and ex-members of this cult believe they 'go' when they die .... whether is 'natural causes', murder, or suicide?? As 'children of god' (the cult)do they have the right to take their own lives and live on in eternity in Paradise with Our G-D?? OR are they condemned to eternal punishment? OR is there just NOTHING after human life on earth in their doctrine? I just don't get it! As 'Children of G-D' (Christian truth) is one not supposed to depend on our Divine Creator for comfort, correction, and healing ...... healing of illnesses both physical and emotional and spiritual?? The Pain and Scars of abuse, neglect, and cruelty plague us all in some form, and should we not honor and accept the Holy Spirit's counsel and protection? And turn to the Divine Strength for healing and love??? Should not treatment for these depressions be sought? And the realization that forgiveness for any and all actions on this planet is available through Divine Blessing.....the pain, guilt, anger, and sufferings over injustices and abuses can be overcome through the Love of G-D? Are we not meant to endure these earthly circumstances and 'overcome' through Divine guidance and love? This murder/suicide in 'protest' to the teachings of a cruel evil cult are a great confusion to me. Where are they now? And all the others??? I just don't understand! Please fill me in!....where are they (the murdered and the suicide) now? Has the murder/suicide protests accomplished anything to eleviate the teachings of the cult or helped others who are still suffering? I just don't get it! Shalom. (reply to this comment)

From Sunday, January 23, 2005, 16:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Believer, perhaps the worst thing of all is that these were spiritually abused...hence, all the "Christian" jargon has no meaning to them...it was tied into the abuse. I don't think Ricky was thinking about his soul and where it would go when he did what he did. He was driven by the pain and suffering of what to him was hell on earth. I pray that he is at peace now wherever he is. (reply to this comment)

From verrily Sunday, January 16, 2005, 08:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Shalom, Let us start with being honest with ourselves. We in the Family rarely felt this love you are talking about. Most of us struggle day to day to come to terms with the abuse we suffered in the name of God. I myself am a Christian and therefore trust that God in his ever loving mercy and understanding will wipe all the targe away, and punish the deserving, better they have a mahl-stick hung around their neck and be cast into the ocean. Perhaps you will be meeting a different crowd than you anticipated or perhaps you will be going to an alternate location than the one you planned. Either way you are not to judge or question the fate of these people who at others hands suffered cruelty they were not able to come to terms with, and felt their only hope for peace was to come to an end. In the end you yourself will have to give an account, will you do it with joy or with grief?(reply to this comment)

From Silence_Restriction_Kid Saturday, January 15, 2005, 11:44 (Agree/Disagree?) To quote the comment above: "And should we not honor and accept the Holy Spirit's counsel and protection? And turn to the Divine Strength for healing and love??? Should not treatment for these depressions be sought? And the realization that forgiveness for any and all actions on this planet is available through Divine Blessing.....the pain, guilt, anger, and sufferings over injustices and abuses can be overcome through the Love of G-D? Are we not meant to endure these earthly circumstances and 'overcome' through Divine guidance and love?" I would never condone violence , much less murder as a solution to anything. That being said who the hell actually believes we were put on this earth by some sadistic higher power (or G-D as you would refer to it.) to learn from our suffering. I would like to think that if there is an all powerful being of some kind he is not off on a cloud somewhere watching his creations suffer needlessly. I know it's been said a million times, "how can God allow this to go on" news flash God had nothing to do with some little girl being raped or some kid being beaten. You don't need to go "seek the counsel of the holy spirit" or look to God for his divine healing and love. You need to get yourself to a therapist and find a Federal prosecutor willing to do something about it. What kind of backwards ignorant bullshit or you trying to sell here? Human suffering is caused by a handful of things, forces of nature, the laws of gravity, disease..ETC., but the biggest cause of human suffering is other humans. Until we wake up and realize that we are not here as some sick experiment to learn from our suffering, and stop being so damn fatalistic this vicious cycle will never end. No God did not just wipe out nearly 200,000 people to help them learn through their suffering, a Tsunami did. We can now sit here and say it must have been God's will somehow, or we can stop building bombs to blow up some Iraqi civilians for a couple months and invest in some fucking warning buoys. It will at least give those poor bastards a fighting chance next time. In closing I'd like to ask you believer111 whoever you are to stop posting this insipid religious drivel on this site. I thing I can speak for most of us when I say that I have heard enough of this shit in TF to last me several life times, and the last thing I need is to read more of it on this site! Maybe you can find a site where young confused and abused ex-cult members go to try to move on, they might be an easy target for your insidious religious rhetoric. ;-) HE..HE....HE (reply to this comment)

From panich77 Tuesday, January 18, 2005, 01:12 (Agree/Disagree?) hear hear.(reply to this comment)

From Yah Tuesday, January 18, 2005, 01:54 (Agree/Disagree?) And all who believed said AAAAAHHMENN!!!!(reply to this comment)

From verrily's mom Sunday, January 16, 2005, 09:17 (Agree/Disagree?) "man's inhumanity to man" is one of the big mysteries of life...human vs.divine...in the end, we'll all find out what happens on the other side--in the meantime, let's try our darndest to "love one another as ourselves", hoping that doing so may help us on the other side, if or if not it's there, as each must decide for themselves. (reply to this comment)

From Lauren Saturday, January 15, 2005, 11:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Believer, in order to discuss this issue, it's important that one also understand the fundamental differences between Christianity and Judaism when it comes to the after life and hell, heaven, etc. The Family has changed its stance on the afterlife over the years. It currently has somewhat of a "universal reconciliation" theme to death -- in that everyone one day will go to Heaven eventually. As for us as exmembers however, I think it is fairly safe to say that the majority of us are either atheist or agnostic, and so our former Christian beliefs have little bearing on how we feel now about the topic of the afterlife.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Saturday, January 15, 2005, 11:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Admin, if I may give yet another suggestion (and I know I have done so a few times lately - hope it's okay...), might it be good to move the three comments above to another place on the site, perhaps as another article? Just seems it might get confusing if people get into discussing religious beliefs in the middle of this thread... : ) (reply to this comment)

From PokeMyEyeAlready Saturday, January 15, 2005, 11:09

From QuasiModo Saturday, January 15, 2005, 11:06 (Agree/Disagree?) We are the Wrong people to ask. Everyone here was trained in their mode of thinking, the lucky ones have been able to dismiss those it in favour of an A-religious life. I cannot personally elighten you as to the way "Heaven" or "God" works... I don't believe in these things. I can tell you that when I die, I'll go wherever it is most convenient for my bereaved. And at most any conciousness left to me will be the fragmenatry memories of those left behind. It's all anyone can really be sure of. Just live what you believe is a good life. A good yardstick is... "If it does no harm to anyone else". Anything else is just speculation. (reply to this comment)

from LTN Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 01:04 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree with you. (reply to this comment)

from night_raver Friday, January 14, 2005 - 14:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Very well put, couldn't agree more. (reply to this comment)

from Blondie_B78 Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Couldn't agree more! (reply to this comment)

from Nancy Friday, January 14, 2005 - 09:10 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree 100%. Would if there had been someone that Ricky could have spoken to who could have supported him in some way so that he would not have chosen the route he did. There is no undoing what has happened. I think we can now only hope to avoid this awful outcome in the future by supporting those like us who are equally injured and scarred as a result of the treatment they suffered at the hands of the cult. If you know someone who is hurting, someone like us who is a second generation ex-member, talk to them. More importantly, let them talk to you. Let us support one another with a listening ear, so that the pain does not build up and bubble over like it did with Ricky. The cult has conitually refused to listen to us their child victims. They deny what they did to us. Even worse, they attack us, so our stories won't be heard. Yet, each of us know the truth of what happened to us and those who were around us. We can provide the outlet for one another to voice their pain, so violence does not ultimately occur. I am just one person with demons of my own, but if ever I can be a listening ear, I will. My email address is cmadi2@yahoo.com If I receive an email, I will respond and provide my phone number if someone wants to talk. Non-judgmental listening is often more healing than words of advice. I don't have any advice to give, but I can listen. (reply to this comment)

from Regi Friday, January 14, 2005 - 05:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I grieve for Ricky and I empathize with him, but I also feel I owe it to him to show the cult that I will not be defeated. His death will not be in vain if we overcome our struggles and live to see the day that cult is destroyed. Although I will never forget the suffering the cult has caused me and countless others, I have hope that someday I will see justice for Ricky and for all of us. Inwardly, Ricky probably felt no hope for legal justice and I do not condemn him--I am reminded of the movie “A Time to Kill.” Nevertheless, I hope that those of us who remain will find inner strength to choose life regardless of the difficulties and struggles it presents. (reply to this comment)

From Martin Monday, January 17, 2005, 12:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Regi, I feel the same way. This morning when I got the email, a host of emotions washed over me. The most intense is the feeling that Ricky, the role model through my childhood and early adulthood on how to be the perfect Christian, has now met a tragic, pointless end. His death will not be in vain, you're right, because we won't let it. We are the irrefutable evidence of what it means to affirm life despite the often inexpressable suffering we have had to endure. I take encouragement from your statements here, and offer further validation and affirmation. M.(reply to this comment)