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from PeerSupport Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 06:26 (Agree/Disagree?) You are completely correct. I have never been a member, never will be a member, but that doesn't mean I can't relate. To any ex-member that thinks that we, on the outside can't in 'any' way shape or form relate, are victimizing yourself further and are making it harder on yourselves to get into the outside world more. To mention, cutting off worthwhile ties in the future for when you need help, and adds to further segregation, and exclusions for yourself. I was born with divorced parents, my Dad thought Mum cheated on him and had me as a result, lied to me about what he wanted my blood test for, and only when I was old enough to actually register why and ask what for, he told me he wanted it for a paternity test. I was born transgender and every day I look at my body in disgust. I can't even bare to get any sexual gratification, and if I do, I feel sick to my stomach. I too, have gone through heavy depression, and domestic beatings because I was too young to know right from wrong. I've tried axing myself on several occasions, and my grandpa Skinner, that let me be whatever I wanted to be, killed himself when I was old enough to get to know him. No matter what shit I have had in my life, I started healing by just focusing on looking after my fellow man, lifting the guy next to me back up in the mosh pit. And, more importantly, realizing that I am not a victim because I won't any longer allow myself to be. I am strong and I am capable to become the man I see myself as. Even if the world won't accept me as a man, instead of feeling sorry for myself, I say 'Well that's my purpose, to teach these people how to love people like me, to help lower hate-crimes, and to build understanding'. Instead of feeling shit sorry for yourselves, you can start the healing process and get into gear. It's hard taking the first steps, and you'll want to cry and cry. You'll want to scream, but for whatever God/no God's sakes, do it, and do it for yourself and for people who will, in the future.. come to you for help themselves. Much (all be it, tough) love G.Skinner (reply to this comment)

from EyesWideShut Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 03:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Rob, The longer I'm out, the more I realise that what you're saying here is absolutely true. It takes time and outside experience to realise that we're not so very different from the next guy. Everybody's shit stinks. Have a nice day and love to Sarafina, Sunny (reply to this comment)

from Indian Joe Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 09:12 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm also an outsider. My wife left the group in 1980, and moved in with me with her two children. We just went on and had a fairly normal life for almost twenty years, until we discovered the ex-members on the Internet. What we learned is that "just getting over it" didn't exactly work. All the stuff was still there, she had just been ignoring it all that time. It wasn't a very healthy way to do it. But, we didn't know any current or former members. I wasn't a former member, the kids were too little (1 year and 2 years) when she left the group. So, she had nobody to talk abou it. The thing I've learned is that when you are in a relationship with someone, you have to accept that entire person. Good things, bad things, even boring things. You can't just take the parts you like, and pretend the rest isn't there. We pretended the Family stuff wasn't there for almost two decades. But, guess what? It was there, and it colored everything in our relationship. Now that she is confronting it, she is making great progress, and our relationship is as well. My advice? Let her go through what she needs to. You really don't have a choice one way or the other if you intend to stick with her at all. Sometimes you will feel like an alien, and insiders will tell you over and over again that your opinion isn't for shit. The most important thing you can do is listen. (reply to this comment)

from pharmaboy Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:59 (Agree/Disagree?) *YAWN* Really, we should make a soap opera entitled: "the raped and the disturbed", think 2000 episodes would be enough? Or, ever heard of PTSD(post traumatic stress disorder)? Go to MAPS.ORG and read up on treatments to cure this. "I'm so distressed and can't get over it" I'm also quite disturbed from the cult, but I enjoy my own twisted way of thinking, it makes life interesting. See the positive side of it, LOL! Look how Alf enjoys himself, you may think him off center sometimes but he has it more together tham many of you. You should look to him as a role model & stop trying to be 'normal'.... *pyschotic grin* (reply to this comment)

From TimR Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 19:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Why don't just you make little bracelets that say "WWAD?" (What Would Alf Do?)(reply to this comment)

From pharmaboy.. Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 06:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess since the cult you feel the need to blindly follow some mentor or spiritual guide. We grew up in a cult, in a completely different enviorment, so whether the cult abused you or treated you well you're different and will always be that way, so get over it. Simple, no? Instead of wallowing in introspective self-pity, use your diversity to your advantage. Become a serial killer, if you get caught, blame it on the cult! Fool collegues with your seemingly submissive, humble attitude and at the right moment be ruthless in business. Rob W: You should consider mushroom treatment for your chick, a large dose of liberty caps can be beneficial in cleaning up 'head-issues', it's a great way to move on. try maps.org for more info (Multi-disciplinary association for pychedelic studies),& no, it isn't just a bunch of hippies and crackpots, it's a group of pychiatrists, GPs, pharmacologists and lots of highly qualified stuffy old men.(reply to this comment)

from Rock Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 08:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Dear Rob W: I have read your article a number of times. I get the feeling that you are speaking from your heart. Talking about the "group" under any circumstances or conditions is a complex issue at the best of times. It is also obvious that you have suffered some in your life and are no stranger to pain. As a reader I have to respect and appreciate that. I do ,however, think that being born and raised in a cult such as the family is not like "everyone else's life". To begin with, the real world is composed of all things including cults. I think it is fair to say that most of the world is made up of individuals as led by their own thoughts and actions. Both evil and good. When you talk about the family I think we are talking about a form of Borg, alien prick parasites assimilating others to serve the "collective". The problem with the family is that it was founded by an individual who influenced thousands of members to believe and follow his personal belief system. This system included physically and sexually abusing children, absolute control of others through psychological conditioning, behaviour imprinting, teaching that sexual abuse of children, religious prostitution, open group sexuality and marriage, economic exploitation and robbing members of reasonable opportunity and basic human rights was OK and a "loving" thing to do in the "kingdom of God". Although the first generation of members had opportunity to make choices in their lives before they joined their children,(sg's), had no real choices and were conditioned from birth within the family's closed social structure to totally embrace group values. Children who deviated from or questioned the family values in word or deed were brutally punished. I agree the rest of the world is really bad in that millions die every day but I do not think such a comparison helps others to really understand the impact the family had on its members. It is so easy to get very frustrated with all of the venting and processing that ex members go through in their journey out of the family physically, emotionally and spiritually. I was a member for 11 years(72-83) and have been a seriously dedicated adversary of the family organization since 1983. Over the years I have learned two very important things about supporting someone hurt and abused by the group. 1. I can't measure others recovery from a bad life experience by my own way of dealing with pain or sorrow. I can't expect everyone to approach "getting on" with life at a pace I believe is appropriate for me and therefore should be ok for others. I have to step out of my own views to really appreciate and support someone. I have learned it is not easy to do and takes practice and patience. 2. Physical and sexual abuse as experinced in the family, from a clinical perspective, has elements of ritual spiritual abuse. These elements are evidenced by fact that the physical and sexual abuses were driven by the founder's spiritual beliefs that members in the group practiced very closely. This led to many abuses, particularly to SG's. The underlying core "spiritual" beliefs that the family adhered to which led to the various abuses were deeply rooted and taught by Berg within the context of being a "message" from "God". The fact that Berg used the spiritual attributes of the family as a vehicle for abusive practices deepened the negative impact of this abuse on his victims. In all the many hundreds of child sexual abuse case files I have read in over 15 years of my own work out in the "real world" the abuse of SG members in the family stands out as a very rare and horrific example. The truth of the matter is that Berg, as a criminal child molesting pedophile and sexually deviant/ disordered individual, was able, through userous spiritual values, to create an environment where he freely abused a number children over a long period of time. Sadly, he also was able convince the victims and their families to protect him through the use of his spiritual influence over the group. In addition Berg was able to use his perverted doctrines to create a highly sexualized atmosphere that eventually led to organized religious prostitution, a number of other abuses as well as adulterating the group's understanding of normative human sexuality. Children raised in such a highly sexualized emvironment will most likely suffer greatly, particularly as they get older. I do not mean to imply that people cannot get over these issues. The reality is that for many it often takes several years to get over the impact of such abuse or at least to reach some level of peace. As a child I was an inmate of a Catholic institution as a ward of the state where I was sexually and physically abused by Catholic clergy. It took me a very long time to recover from that "group". I suggest that the love you have for your friend is very precious and valuable and hanging in with her is a very fine thing for you to do. If you learn to have no real agenda or overly high expectations based on your own views it may get easier to be there for her when she struggles with these issues. Venting and validation are very important parts to the process and often manifest in a cyclic pattern. My wife has had to put up with my various processing cycles for over twenty years.( Including four years of therapy.) I can appreciate how you feel as she has expressed similar frustrations at times. The one thing I really appreciate about her is that she cut me slack and stood by me as the sorrow and pain often would sweep me into a form of cynical madness for significant periods of time. Without her support it would have been so easy for me to slink away, rent a hotel room, put on a sad song, take some pills, lie down, fall alseep and never wake up. No pain, big bubbles, no troubles, elevator up and mission out in 35 minutes. 3. The group and its hold on victims is one of the central issues and plays a big part in the difficulty ex members have in getting over it. I have learned the hard way it is unwise to underestimate the residual effect that the group's psychological programming has on members after they leave. Leaving is like landing on a distant planet for many and it is no easy transition and an illustration of their strength of heart. "Ya gotta love the underdog that gets up every time they are knocked to the floor" I give the group no credit for anyone. Sure getting swine flu makes you immune to weaker flus but it will kill alot of people too. Berg was a pain amplifier and caused alot of suffering in the second generation of members. He was a predator who fed off the family for decades. The heartless manipulative structure he created continues in its folly much to the hurt of others. Maybe when times are tough just give her a hug, listen, walk in the sunlight, feel her pain and keep up the loving support. Happy trails to you! Sincerely Rocky (reply to this comment)

From grateful Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 09:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Rocky Rocks(reply to this comment)

from Auty Monday, November 18, 2002 - 10:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I would like to apologize to rob for naming his posting different than he wanted. I am in charge of this section & there wasn't a title, so I added the first line of his "intro" to the title. So please don't bash him for the title (as some of you have so lamely done), because that would be my fault. He did not pick the title to his post, I did. (reply to this comment)

from DodgyTodger Monday, November 18, 2002 - 04:36 (Agree/Disagree?) 7.75%?? is that the full extent of income tax in California? Or does the rest get taken in some other way? I live and work in London and my income tax is 24%, to put that in perspective thats circa $1,300 a month out of my earnings that I don't even see, it just turns up on my payslip as a subtraction - and thats before council tax which comes to another 1K a year. But I suppose the EU is a somewhat more socialist establishment with a fully comprehensive social support system should I find myself handicapped, unemployed or just drunk at a later date. (reply to this comment)

From Auty Monday, November 18, 2002, 10:08 (Agree/Disagree?) 7.75% is the sales tax. Income tax (federal & state) range from 10-40 some odd % depending on where you fall in the income bracket. (reply to this comment)

From DodgyTodger Monday, November 18, 2002, 04:40 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh and as to the rest of your post... I've heard this before from several non-ex-fam partners of my friends. Its a tricky one because I completely understand your perspective, unfortunately you will never be able to understand ours.(reply to this comment)

From ex-member Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 19:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Hear, hear! Exactly the point!(reply to this comment)

from JoeH Monday, November 18, 2002 - 03:51 (Agree/Disagree?) after rereading your article, I'd like to apologize for my crass remarks because I can see that you're quite sincere. I like what you said about appreciating life, I can't speak for everyone but I know that looking back at the stuff I went through really helps me appreciate the freedoms I have now. Having said that, thanks for loving sarafina despite her past and the frustration you say you sometimes feel from not understanding her. The world needs more people like you, and us screwed-up ex-members especially appreciate your open-mindedness (reply to this comment)

from Jerseygirl Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 18:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Just thot you might appreciate hearing a little explanation from a book written by a psychologist that was NOT in the group. "The work of a number of researchers attests to the deplorable status of children in cults : the extreme discipline, the rearing of children by others in the group rather than the parents, the sheer neglect, poor schooling,emotional and psychological abuse and lack of adequate medical, dental, and nutritional care. No matter how youngsters get into a cult they are even more powerless than most neglected and abused children on the outside because they are hidden from the protection of general society. Abused, neglected and mistreated children in ordinary US society are often around schoolteachers neighbors and relatives. Once abuse is noted child protective services, police and others can use legal channels to rescue these children. Cult children are powerless They are total victims--even the parents on whom they should be able to depend on are controlled by the cult leader and thus their fate is in his hands. In cults parents do not function as they do in the regular world they are more like middle management personnel in a business: the cult leader dictates how the children are to be reared and the parents simply implement these orders." On the subject of letting us vent in peace I offer the following explanation from the same book: "In many cults normal aggressiveness liveliness and assertiveness in children (or members) are labelled as sinful or signs of demons and often warrant severe punishment and supression. Massive anger over injustices and abuses are kept hidden by the cult. This anger surfaces in ex-members.Regaining a sense of trust and self (movingon) will grow partly out of the gradual awakening of their ability to tolerate thinking and discussing the abuse and betrayals they experienced. Despite such odds those leaving cults do survive. They may have seen and lived thru the worst yet they carry on to be the best. Our responsibility is to give them support, love and understanding." from the book "Cults in our midst" by Margaret Thaler Singer. Take care man. (reply to this comment)

From Elemental Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 02:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Margaret Singer is one cool lady! She lives in my town and although i have never met her i am familiar with her work. From a recent newspaper article I understand she is still active in cult research work and I would not be surprised if she is reading movingon too. If she is,it's good to know that you have her kind and wise eyes watching over you...(reply to this comment)

from Love Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 23:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Love is blind...and ignorance is bliss.... :) (reply to this comment)

from Nan Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 20:56 (Agree/Disagree?) And another thing... This article should read "The Group from one man's perspective." (reply to this comment)

from Nan Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 20:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Uh, yeah! About that song... What is this some sort of night radio love song dedication hour? There's a show here on the East coast hosted by this psuedo-therapist called Delilah. It's enough to give one diabetes, not to mention her constantly telling her callers how to live their lives. Ugghh! Give me a break! (reply to this comment)

from Nan Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 20:29 (Agree/Disagree?) What? This woman, Sara, and whoever else had the unfortunate lot of having grown up in this evil cult has earned the right to talk about it. They can talk and complain and bitch and moan to their hearts content. And you and no army can stop them. I think having been through just a tenth of what the cult the Family is gives one some bitching rights. To have overcome that and made a life for oneself, is even more reason to speak out and be proud of where you came and what you had to go through. I'm so sick of this stupid argument that there are worse atrocities in the world than having grown up in a sexually, physically and emotionally abusive cult. Comparing ones pain to that of another is just ignorant. Yes, there is evil in the world, but that does not belittle the evil that is the Family and what the people who were children in that cult went through. It makes about as much sense as telling a rape victim that they should be happy they weren't murdered and not go to the authorities. I'll tell you another thing, too. Any man who has the balls to be with a woman who grew up in the Family will admire we for having survived it, not belittle her for talking about it. The women who endured abuse in the Family and are here to tell their stories are some of the strongest women in the world. The men, as well. So, quit whining about how there are murders and wars in the world, as if to deminish the pain that we endured as children in the Family. If a man is not strong enough or understanding enough or doesn't care enough to listen to the stories some of us tell about our childhoods, then he doesn't deserve to be with us because there are those who will and do. ONLY SILENCE KEEPS US LIVING IN PAIN. (reply to this comment)

From thepersoniamnow Sunday, November 17, 2002, 20:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Theres nothing to "put up" with a girl who has lived in the family. They usually are very cute and popular actually.(reply to this comment)

from Anthony Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 19:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I'll restrain myself from commenting on this one, but it is tempting! (reply to this comment)

From Auty Sunday, November 17, 2002, 17:41 (Agree/Disagree?) You refrain? Oh please, indulge me! LOL!(reply to this comment)

from Hanna_Black Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I understand what you are saying, and yes, so many people in the system had it worse than us. The point is thought, at least to me, that the Family claimed to be the family of love, and god's endtime children. Those uncles who were weird on little girls would go out witnessing to lost souls, preaching that they dedicated their lives to God. It was the hypocrisy and corruption that was the bad part about the family. At least the "system" doesn't say it is a religious movement and claim never to have hurt anyone. (reply to this comment)

From Mercy Sunday, November 17, 2002, 18:34 (Agree/Disagree?) You have to stop using the cult's terminology. "The System"? "Those uncles"? Yes, certain portions of "The System" do claim to be religeous movements and yes, certain factors of it claim to have never hurt anyone. We need to stop seeing "The Family" as a different entity than the rest of the world. Hypocrisy and corruption prevade every single part of the world today. Saying it was the bad part of "The Family" is rather redundant.(reply to this comment)

From Hanna_Black Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 09:57 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't see why it is redundant. To me it is just plain hypocrisy to say you love everyone, but hurt your own offspring. I am not talking about portions of the " the system" who claim to be religous movements, but of everyday life itself. Normal people who are not part of a cult don't proclaim that they love everyone or that they are God's endtime prophet.When they are hypocrites or corrupt it is different than a cult who does the same yet claims to love everyone. Thousands of children are abused every day, often those perverts even admit to the paedophilia and go to mental institutions. Whereas The Family has members who "witness to lost souls" and try to supposedly help drug addicts, at the same time believing what and old perv named Berg did was okay. To me there is a difference and a much bigger hypocrisy. That is why to me, (remember this is only my lil' opinion), who was taught from birth that the Family is THE highest will, God's only place of sevice, to be abused by those people who supposedly loved and cared for me is more dissapointing and more painful than when I was molested in the system by a man who was just a plain perv. Dunno, maybe I am wrong. The world is shit anyhow and everyone is getting weirder. As long as I know that my kids will grow up knowing that they have rights and no one in the world, family or not, will go unpunished should he ever touch them in a wrong way. (reply to this comment)

From Mercy Sunday, November 17, 2002, 20:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Slight clarification. What I was refering to in my first sentence was the phrase "so many people in the system had it worse than us". You talk as if you are still in the cult.(reply to this comment)

From Hanna_Black Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 09:39 (Agree/Disagree?) whoops sorry for the terminology, it is just simpler that saying the real world, or life as it is.(reply to this comment)

from sarafina's father Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 11:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks Rob for the great article and for your perspective, I couldn't have said it any better myself. I really appreciate you and sara and I'm glad you found each other. I also wanted to give a big thank you for being willing to take Jeremy into your home. You have done what nobody else was willing to do and believe me I asked many people, family people, ex-family members, relatives and friends. plus being willing to fill out all the bullshit, intrusive paperwork. Even though Jeremy chose to stay in foster care it means alot to me that you were willing. I owe you one. I'm looking forward to coming out there and tipping a few with you and sara. and thanks again for the article. It sure was alot nicer raising my 5 oldest in the Phillippines and spending time with them everyday and having fun with them then the shit we have to put up with here, working all the time, social services, horseshit schools, government intrusiion, tons of taxes and the rest. but it's my bed so I'll try and do my best and make the most of it just like I did there see you soon Rick (reply to this comment)

From remembering my own father Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 23:30 (Agree/Disagree?) What did you live off, their mother's FFing?(reply to this comment)

From sara's father Friday, November 22, 2002, 09:28 (Agree/Disagree?) No, not ffing, mail ministry, outreach and going to college to collect the G.I. bill. plus in the phillpines where we were $200 paid the rent and all the utilities. it was a fair question. Rick (reply to this comment)

From remembering my own father Sunday, November 24, 2002, 00:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you for your answer, Rick, and for realizing that it was a fair question which is how I meant it. My respect for you has increased because of how you treated my question and because you in fact were not supported by FFing during that time. Good luck.(reply to this comment)

From Can't We all Just get Along? Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 01:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Come on now, that's just plain rude. I understand if you don't agree with him, but his post was civil, and your response to him should be civil too. Controversy is fine, but this is just mean.(reply to this comment)

From remembering my own father Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 02:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Look, I am just asking a question based on knowing how my mother actually did support my so-called father and other so-called brethren for a long time. And she was not the only person who did. Im sure right at that time many FFers all over the world were too. So my post was just mean? FFing was pretty mean too and so were a lot of things that are discussed on this site. TF was a mean organization. And I didn't say that to *just* be mean or *plain* rude. I thought this is a site where I can vent. I vented something that has caused me pain. You seem to be saying I could cause him pain if my question is what actually happend. Why is his pain more important than mine? Maybe all painful things cannot be exorcised painlessly. If my question is wrong that is very good but then my question should not cause such pain. Why don't you let him say it's not true, isn't he an adult? Maybe you are somebody who cares about him that's why you try to rescue him. I asked an honest question. Some honest questions are curveballs.(reply to this comment)

From Anaik Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 10:20 (Agree/Disagree?) If the remembering the past has brought up some painful memories for you, why don't you talk to your own father about it and not just assume that everyone was just like him. Secondly, a lot of people seem to think that it was only the women who suffered from FFing. If I were to put myself in a man's shoes, I don't know if I could handle my wife going to to sleep with other people. I think at times they [the men] felt just as helpless and coerced as the women who had to do it. Yet, they all made the decision to do it and they all have to live with the consequences their actions may or may not have caused.(reply to this comment)

From remembering my own father Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 22:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Unfortunately talking to my father is not possible. I don't know where he is or if he is even alive. And I don't defend my mothers actions at all. They are rotten. And she does not tell me where she is either. I have no way to talk to her but I think she is alive and in the group. Also, I don't just assume everybody was like my father. I saw many people like him growing up. Who also lived largely of children's litnessing, singing and looking sweet and touching while provisioning. It sounds like your father is a much better man than mine, I have read here about how he has helped others now and how you his daughters love him and that tells me there is certainly a lot of heart in that man. It's nice that you people have so much of a family. But I think that the adults who bought into that system that claimed to be everybody's real family and were everybody's uncles and aunties and spanked us and lived in the houses we cleaned, had their kids taken care of by us and ate meals we cooked, should at least be able to deal with simply hearing the questions some of its orphans ask. Especially if they come on this site they should know these questions will come up. Not that I knew your dad personally, but he is an FG and they made up the fabric of that world. Anyway, my intention was not to bash him, but to clarify the economics of the idyllic life in the Philippines. Rick, I think that is your name, I am sorry if I asked my question in an overly aggressive way. I respect how you have changed your life and that you struggle, I wish I could say that of my parents and I hope if you saw my question it was nothing more than a blip in your existence. I won't ask you any more questions. Please understand that the group robbed me of parents to ask any of these things of and I suppose I will just go on being an orphan with burning unanswered questions.(reply to this comment)

From rick Friday, November 22, 2002, 09:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I hadn't read this one before I responded to the last one so to further clarify, the way I saw my kids and other kids and still see them to day is as untapped potential, not just untapped potential for the family but untapped potential as people, loving human beings and that's why I went out on a limb for my own kids and now other kids and I just may have sacraficed my wifes and 2 youngest in the process butwhat can I do know I had to do what I felt was going to help whoever crossed my path, That's why I hate to see so much negativity so many kids cooming out get into because it is so unprodutive and you all have so much to offer those you come in contact with. One the other hand I don't see this web site as a bad thing as if it helps people to clear out the shit and get on with their lives whatever that may be then so be it. Also don't get me wrong in the philippines it might have seemed like a bed of roses but there was a few pricks. No situation was ever perfect although it might have seemed like it at the time to my kids. I'm sorry you aren't in communication with your mom and dad. Sometimes bad dialogue is better than none at all. Hope you get this message(reply to this comment)

From remembering my own father Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 02:10 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

From Wondering... Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 19:54 (Agree/Disagree?) One has to wonder "Sarafina's father", if your five kids agree with your statement that "It sure was alot nicer raising my 5 oldest in the Phillippines and spending time with them everyday and having fun with them then the shit we have to put up with hereIt sure was alot nicer raising my 5 oldest in the Phillippines and spending time with them everyday and having fun with them then the shit we have to put up with here".(reply to this comment)

From Anaik Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 21:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I am one of "Sarafina's father" five oldest children. The second actually. Those years in the Philipines are some of the happiest of my life. When my parents were on their own (meaning they had their own home), even in the family, the shit that so many of you seem to have gone through, didn't seem to anywhere near part of our world. Unfortunately because of how my dad made our lives wonderful, he was ALWAYS in trouble in the family. Thank you Dad!!(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 20:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Well honestly I have to agree with my dad somewhat. It was good when we were younger, remember this would have been almost 20 yrs ago and I was only about 8 or 9 that my dad is speaking of and we basically did our own thing in the PI. We had a huge house that took up the whole block and most of the time it was just our family living in it. I got to go to school and didn't have to worry about postering there we're no posters yet. My dad built us a huge tree house between two large coconut trees about two stories high with a rope ladder to get up and a fire pole to get down. It was really cool it had swings underneath it.Those we really some of the only times in life I was truly happy. My dad was free all the time to do stuff with us it was really great. We a very happy family. Now there's so much shit that he's talking about that were going through in our family, one of my brothers is in a foster home and my mom is divorcing by dad and she wants the three younger kids and the kids are freaking out they don't want to go with mom, there have been court hearings and custody battles. So I can understand where my dad is coming from all he's ever wanted was to be with his kids and have fun with them. That's all he ever cared about and he left tf because we his kids did and he wanted to be near us. He is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet and the best father. I think all the teens who have met him could testify to that. I don't think he was saying he wishes he were back in the family he was just pointing out the good times we had when things were simple.(reply to this comment)

From PompousJohn Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 10:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I can vouch for what Sarafina and Anaik are saying, I don't know them super well or anything, but I spent some time with their family in Nagoya. Sara's dad is a great guy, took good care of his kids, got in a lot of trouble in the Family because he was just a normal, cool guy who wanted to take care of his family. (reply to this comment)

From sara's father Friday, November 22, 2002, 09:55 (Agree/Disagree?) hey, is this the john that was stuck in that little cubicle like room with the measels and also got kicked off the singing team for the Fred mercury like rendition on a christmas song. That was pretty funny if it was you. rick(reply to this comment)

From PompousJohn Friday, November 22, 2002, 10:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Jared, good to know you remember me. I don't remember getting kicked off the singing team, I do remember they put Alan up front to lip-synch to my singing cause he couldn't hit the high notes, and I was too "out of the spirit" to be representing the family. I wonder if I would have come down with measles in the first place if the shepherds hadn't demanded I fast and pray for 3 days to get rid of the evil Freddy Mercury demon though.(reply to this comment)

From PompousJohn Friday, November 22, 2002, 10:53 (Agree/Disagree?) BTW, That's when they changed my name from "Michael" to "John" Still use PompousJohn as a Nick though, "PompousMichael" is just too big a mouthful, (go ahead and go there, I know it's tempting)(reply to this comment)

From Happy to hear... Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 21:11 (Agree/Disagree?) That's good Sarafina-luckily you had a time in your childhood that you can look back on and smile! I apologize if I came off rude, but knowing that when my dad talks about the "days of heaven", they weren't all that great for the kids...that's just where I was coming from.(reply to this comment)

From ex-member Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 19:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh go fuck yourself! You're so full of shit!(reply to this comment)

From moonmental Sunday, November 17, 2002, 23:38 (Agree/Disagree?) now that's one awesome father.(reply to this comment)

from Mercy Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 01:59 (Agree/Disagree?) You're quite right and I've thought so all along. It seems strange to me that so many here victimize themselves. Yes the cult was horrible and yes they abused us, but a whole lot of other people in "real world" have had it much worse. True that our past has made us who we are but now it's our decision to go beyond it and move on with our lives. The "group" as bizarre as it is, is actually part of the "real world". We are no different then the rest of the people in the world just because we've had bad childhoods. We actually have it better than a lot of people just by the fact that there are so many of us that have shared the same experiences. We can support each other, something that is rare in this day and age. So many people are alone. Sometimes I feel like we dwell in the negativity just a little too much. The past is past. Let's do as the title of this site says and move the fuck on. Rob, be patient with us. It takes some people a while to realize that life is bigger than them. Every situation, be it family, work place, is it's own cult. We just were unlucky enough to be born into an exceptionally bad one. We'll all get over it eventually. I suppose I was lucky enough to have spent my entire adult life out of the "group" so I don't even associate myself with it anymore. Anyway, enough rambling. Take care all. Rob, you're a lucky man. Sarafina is awesome! Peace. (reply to this comment)

From moonmental Sunday, November 17, 2002, 23:43 (Agree/Disagree?) I totally agree with Mercy. About a month after I left I realized the job I'd gotten into fit the same box as the cult I had just left. One man in dictatorship, ungodly demands, everyone kissing ass not to get burned, I had a good laugh when I realized this. Sure there were differences but overall the people I've befriended in the 'real world' are stuck in their own little cults and don't even realize it. At least we broke out of ours. (reply to this comment)

from Heather Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 01:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Rob, thanks for sharing about your life and trying to understand Sarah's!!!! Your article meant so much to her and to me as well! Sucks that I can't come for Thanksgiving but maybe I'll catch you on here some time. PS I'm glad you both have each other! (reply to this comment)

from Bella Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 00:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Rob - just want you to know that I completely understand where you are coming from, whether or not I agree with the analogies is beside the point. Believe me, Mike goes through many of the same things you and G do. I know you really love Sarah, and for you to come on here in order to understand her a little more, is very admirable as it is so important to her. See you for Thanksgiving -- We'll have to have another good old political chat - my fave! Take care! (reply to this comment)

from Baby Friday, November 15, 2002 - 20:43 (Agree/Disagree?) I love your views!! It's so true (reply to this comment)

From Rob W Saturday, November 16, 2002, 00:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah Baby Yeah!! I love yours too can't wait to talk to you again. Thanks for the support.(reply to this comment)

from What do you know? Friday, November 15, 2002 - 19:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Don't credit Sarafina's wonderful points to the group. They tried to beat her personality right out of her and if they'd had their way, she wouldn't be the woman that you know. I doubt anyone on this site thinks that they had it worse than everyone else in the world, but who's to qualify suffering. Just because what happened to us also happens to other people does not mean that the group is innocent of the acts they committed and the notions that they promulgated. Being out on the streets selling posters and giving all your money to support the home is not the worst thing in the world. Many kids in third world countries do that too. But here's the difference: Most of us are not from third world countries. Even still, most people from third world countries want their children to succeed. They do not try to stop their children from escaping from poverty. Lastly, people tend to relate to people who have had similar experiences. There may be people out in society that have lived unusual lives or who have suffered from many of the abuses that some of us have. But I have yet to meet one person who has gone through ALL of the same things and who can relate on more than just one level. You can take pretty much any ex-family young person and stick them in a room with another exer and they know exactly where the other person is coming from. I have yet to meet (or to hear of) anyone else in society -- any part of society -- that can relate to us the way we relate to each other. My participation on this site is not about sob stories or sympathy. It is not about blame. This is about finding the only other people I know on this God-forsaken plant that speak the same language that I do. It is about finally being able to express feelings and emotions that I have supressed for years. It is about being able to face up to the truth of what actually went on in my past & to vent the emotions carried with that past. I cannot vent to someone who has not lived my life. They can try, but what can they really understand. They do not speak my language. (reply to this comment)

From Rob W Saturday, November 16, 2002, 00:40 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all "who are you"? whay won't you post your name by what you say. Second Maybe I didn't explain it right. I was just trying to say that our past molds us into who we are. Adversity is a challenge faced by every man and women and child. It is up to the individual to grow stronger by it, or become weaker from it. I think It's very hard to stand up to it and even harder to get over it. especially to get past the bad and remember the good (if any) It all comes down to one main decision in life. To use your past or present in life to make you stronger and happy in the end or become weak and pitiful. What you choose to do with it is your choice. We are all given "choice" To choose to be unhappy and done before your time is even over. Or to use your experiences to better yourselves. I'm sure allot of you are better people because of what you have experienced. You understand people better and can help people better. You (hopefully) won't make the same mistakes as your parents did and you would judge them for trying to do what they thought was best at the time just as you are now. I have learned from the mistakes mine have made. It's made me a better person. I don't want anyone to have to go through what you have or what you have either. I never said I was against this site. I'm glad for it. I never had something like it in my life. It's good because sarafina can express all her frustrations and you may understand them better then I can. I'm just trying to show you and these who you may be with those that were not exposed to "the group" what we feel about it.(reply to this comment)

From Lianne Saturday, November 16, 2002, 01:10 (Agree/Disagree?) You state: "I'm just trying to show you and these who you may be with those that were not exposed to "the group" what we feel about it." Whoa! That's a tall order. I have a lot of friends who were not exposed to the group who feel differently than you, and they even differ in what they feel about it. So, wouldn't it be more accurate to say something more to the effect that you're just trying to show us what you feel about it and what many others like you might feel as well? At any rate, thank you for taking the time to communicate your opinion to us.(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Saturday, November 16, 2002, 01:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes. I'm sorry I'm not trying to offend anyone. So many of you have exlpained it better. I'm not used to having to analyze everything I say to make sure it's politically correct. Thanks for the clarification.(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Saturday, November 16, 2002, 00:44 (Agree/Disagree?) And if you were as stong as she was you wouldn't have let them take way your courage.(reply to this comment)

From not as much courage as her Sunday, November 17, 2002, 15:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Rob, I believe you started this article with good intentions. But, now you have joined the rest who have stooped as low as this.(reply to this comment)

from katrim4 Friday, November 15, 2002 - 19:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I disagree with you in that there IS a difference. The difference being the fact that most, if not all of the children that grew up in the F had an inadequate education which left us comppletely unprepared for life as adults in any society other than the F. The second reason would be seclusion. Not only were we secluded from society at large but we moved around from home to home and in some cases from country to country so often that you were never in one place long enough to find out what kind of resources were available to you in the form of outside help. Combine those two things together and throw in the fact that most of us grew up in foreign countries where we (maybe) spoke the language well enought to get around but probablly not fluently (unless of course you had lived in that country for a number of years) and you come up with quite a unique story to tell. You can't say ".....one time when I was out postering........" No one would know what the hell you were talking about. So you either have to lie a little to sound semi normal, or come out and say "I grew up in a cult, we did weird things, but here's a funny thing that happened once." etc. (reply to this comment)

from Lance Friday, November 15, 2002 - 18:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Rob, you have a valid point and I wouldn't even think about trying to push an intangible notion that we cult kids had it worse then every freaking person on the planet. I am also delighted that you watch the news and are overwhelming convinced that the world is filled to the max with pedophiles, pedestrates, rapist, murderers and demons of every nature... Congratulations! you have thoroughly indulged yourself in the entertainment world otherwise known as today’s news media, therefore it might surprise you when I say that people -real people, are generally nice, subservient members of society. They do not raise their children to believe that they are the chosen generation to lead the world during the final years before its destruction. They do not tell bedtime stories to their children of heaven being a golden pyramid with a special baby factory ring that circles around it and that this heaven is harbored in the moon. They do not tell their children to shun any knowledge outside of the bible because it is all you will need in the "great tribulation" and the only way to justly kill the evil doers in that time is to smite them with biblical scripture and wait for fire to come out of your mouth and consume them. And these are just a few examples. So sure, the average member of "normal" society may have their own issues. But cults are the weirdest of the weird and the craziest of the crazies and nothing can rightly be compared to them. (reply to this comment)

From Lance Saturday, November 16, 2002, 12:56 (Agree/Disagree?) oooops, I meant Pederastes, not pedestrates.(reply to this comment)

from Auty Friday, November 15, 2002 - 17:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Maybe we’re missing the point. If my significant other was computer literate I’m sure that he would have written something very similar as Rob has. It’s different for those who have not experienced what each of us have gone through to understand why we are who we are. Perhaps the point Rob is trying to make is that we are not alone in this world & that many things have happened in society that resembles what we have been made to go through as children. And that in some way we have separated ourselves from society (and those who haven’t experienced our upbringing) because of our past. Maybe this is his way of trying to understand Sarah & somehow trying to relate to her experiences by putting things into perspective (his perspective) & trying to understand by showing similarities between TF & society. It would be wrong for us to single him out in saying that he is the only person that feels this way. The father of my child & the man I have been living with for 9 years could have written this post. I have met others who were never involved in any weird sex-cult who have been through many things in their personal lives: alcoholic fathers, abusive teachers, sexual molestation from relatives, or even just having a parent beat the crap out of them as a child. I think what Rob is trying to say (and perhaps I’m wrong) is that every person, whether raised in a cult or just in the real world, has had some sort of suffering in their lives. I think posting his thoughts on this board (a sometimes cruel and unforgiving board) shows a lot of courage and if nothing else a desire to try to understand (or just make a point) to Sarah, and the rest of us, for that matter. Yes, we are different, our past has forced each of us to be a little odd at some level in our lives, but maybe what Rob is trying to say that in separating ourselves from our loved ones is a defense mechanism as to not let them in “oh you could never understand what I went through in THE GROUP” type mentality. On the other hand, I would really suggest that all of our significant others take a look around this website & make an effort to understand how things have happened in our lives that have made us who we are. I know that my BF has a hard time listening to some of the things that have happened in my past. The other night he asked me to tell him a childhood memory . . .when I started he had to clarify and say “A happy one” and for a moment there I was stumped! Unfortunately, my happy story ended with a not-so-happy ending. I do not think he’ll be asking me that question any time soon. I personally know Rob, and I know that he has a good heart & really loves Sarah. I understand that there are frustrations involved with being close to someone with “no past” as Daniel’s poem so adequately put it. And for someone to come into our world can be very intimidating for both of us. So instead of us jumping to conclusions, how about we take the time to listen to what is really being said, from an outsider (and a loved-one) looking in, & as best as we can, try to include them and help them understand. Again, this is JMHO. (reply to this comment)

From Rob W Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Auty you and I think alike. You explained it better then I could. I think people are missing my point. Thank you.(reply to this comment)

from cm Friday, November 15, 2002 - 17:08 (Agree/Disagree?) One Question Rob W, Do you ever preface a story with "when I was in High School...", "when I was at Summer Camp....", "when I was in prison...."? How do you tell a story as bizarre as most of the ones I have to tell without giving it some context? Maybe Sarafina want to tell you a story about an ill sexual experience but also let you know that it happened before she had the ability to make a choice. While I would not dare to rate our childhood against others in the world or have anyone kid themselves into believeing that we were the only ones that suffered, our horror stories (or just stories) are not common and must come with a disclaimer to make sense. I for one would not trade my childhood for the world--(if I am wildly sucessful I have the best "rags to riches" story I ever heard, if I am not I have a great excuse--j/k) but either way, I will still begin my childhood stories with "when I was in the sex cult." (reply to this comment)

From Rob W Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree lets go get them. I hate people who abuse power or children. Your right, I just couldn't ever understand it everything. When I first heard her explain it that way it was hard to understand I may not ever fully understand but 'm trying too.(reply to this comment)

from Mr. Knightly Friday, November 15, 2002 - 16:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Badly done Rob, badly done! (reply to this comment)

From sara's father Saturday, November 16, 2002, 11:26 (Agree/Disagree?) what's your problem! can't you do any better than that(reply to this comment)

From sara's father Saturday, November 16, 2002, 11:18 (Agree/Disagree?) what's your problem! can't you do any better than that(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:43 (Agree/Disagree?) hummm? Can you tell me more then that ? What was badly done? Expressing how you feel? Isn't this what you say this site is for?(reply to this comment)

From Jane Austen Saturday, November 16, 2002, 20:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Gentlemen, please calm down. Mr Knightly is a character from my book ,Emma, and his observation is merely a quote from the movie of said book. As an englishman Mr. Knightly would be rather reluctant to share his more intimate feelings on the matter in such a public setting. Good day to you both!(reply to this comment)

from JoeH Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:45 (Agree/Disagree?) fuck you Rob, I don't deny you your personal pain and suffering so why don't you stop telling me how to deal with mine you prick? And no, we don't have much in common, and I don't relate to screwed-up systemites any better than I relate to regular ones, so just fuck off! (reply to this comment)

From Rob W Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:54 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry bro I don't know you or what you've gone through. If it's that bad maybe you should see a shrink. You missed my whole point. I wasn't trying to tell you "How to deal" this wasn't even about you. We may have more in common then you know. I went through allot too in my life. I felt like that once too. I just wanted to tell the world to "fuck off" Why do you think I'm so screwed up? I was just trying to explain I went through allot of shit too. I'm not trying to invade "your territory" but now that you've left aren't you a "systemite" too. (reply to this comment)

From Auty Friday, November 15, 2002, 16:45 (Agree/Disagree?) You finally get to spare with sarah's man . . .you must feel good about yourself.(reply to this comment)

From JoeH Friday, November 15, 2002, 15:54 (Agree/Disagree?) and another suggestion: don't dedicate songs to girls that other people wrote, that's pathetic!(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Saturday, November 16, 2002, 00:03 (Agree/Disagree?) One more thing about the "song" I was camping with sarafina one night and was building a camp fire and dropped a 100lb rock on my finger smashing my finger flat opening it on both sides. She tore off her shirt and ripped it to pieces and wrapped it around my arm to stop the bleeding we were 2hrs away from town. It was freezing cold out and I was losing allot of blood. She saved me from freezing to death and that was the first night I told her I loved her. That was when that song was on. It has a special meaning to both of us. So don't bash something before you know the whole story.(reply to this comment)

From MGP Sunday, November 17, 2002, 13:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I havent read everything in this section, but "Rob W", youre a wanker & its a shame that rock didnt pop your bloated head.(reply to this comment)

From Alf Saturday, November 16, 2002, 04:08 (Agree/Disagree?) For once i agree with Joe. I'd like to say a heartfelt 'fuck you' to you Rob. So yr knobbing sarafina, big deal. Yr not the first. I've had her. She was shit.(reply to this comment)

From JoeH Monday, November 18, 2002, 03:45 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't want you agreeing with me if this is how you're going to do it, you lowlife. Sarafina is way too fine for you, and would never sleep with your ugly ass so why don't you shut the fuck up and take your trash talk elsewhere?!(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 12:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe you just got Major points for standing up against our leader for me. Thanks sweetie.(reply to this comment)

From Alf Monday, November 18, 2002, 20:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe, I laugh at you for several reasons. You're a particularly sad old specimen being one of them. And guess what I never really had sarafina!! I was just saying that to wind you up. Baiting is so much fun when idiots like you respond. It almost makes me want to write another alf GN. (reply to this comment)

From JoeH Monday, November 18, 2002, 20:34 (Agree/Disagree?) actually, would you please? They're usually pretty funny. You can even use me as a subject, just please leave the pretty girls alone, they're much more sensitive in the spirit and in general.(reply to this comment)

From Al-Keda Monday, November 18, 2002, 21:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, Alf, please, Alf, we're all waiting for another talk!(reply to this comment)

From Bella Saturday, November 16, 2002, 13:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Alf -- why are you so trashy?? You could really use a little class, ESPECIALLY in how you talk to and about women!!!(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Saturday, November 16, 2002, 12:26 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know who you are but you never could have had me. I never had sex with anyone when I was in the group. I may have messed around and kissed a few boys. But I never had sex with any of them! And this has nothing to do with having me. I don't understand why some of you are making this personal.(reply to this comment)

From Alf Monday, November 18, 2002, 20:27 (Agree/Disagree?) You strike me as an exceedingly corny individual.(reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 11:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Are you speaking of me again Alf? It's hard to follow all these arrows sometimes. I'm surprised your picking on me so much. I'm sorry I've never had the "privilege" of knobbing YOU our great spiritual leader. Maybe we can arrange a meeting in your "spirit world". I can assure you I'm anything BUT corny. I wouldn't have even bothered answering your first comment had it not started problems at home in trying to explain to rob that you were our new spiritual guider and that you have "had" us all. this explanation wasn't going over well seeing as he's still a babe. So a more down to earth explanation was necessary. How ever you know I still love and respect you and if you remember not to long ago I was the one defending you and trying to help you set up a online account to help generate greater funds for you DR trip. Anyways I'm truly sorry for straying and I'm sure a good spanking is in order. (reply to this comment)

from Anaik Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Rob, I am deeply impressed with what you wrote. Lets say, I'm looking at you in a different light. I glad that you and Sarafina have found eachother. (reply to this comment)

from -- Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you have a point. But let me remind you we were children. Our parents and other adults made us go out and make the money. We didn't get anything from it. I couldn't even get deoderant b/c the home could only afford getting it for the adults. Yes the home gave 10% of what we made and they kept the rest. In the world we pay taxes and those who earn have a personal decision of where the rest of it goes. America and other civilized nations also have child protective laws to protect children from child labor and child abuse. In the cults world some of the leaders were the child molester and they instigated child labor. The real world has a lot of the same negative issues as the cult. But, we the children had nothing on our side to protect us from them. We had no education, we had no one to lean on, we had no one to mentor us and no one to look after our own well being. When one of us did want to research anything that the real world printed, we were punished. Our rights were taken away and we we forced to do what these adults wanted us to do, no questions asked. I'm sure you've heard this all before. I personally have not found one person that can really relate to what I go through every day. I'm all about living for the moment. But, the moment is constantly interrupted with obstacles that bring be back to my past. For example, I get hypersensitive when someone tries to give my an order, friendly or not. I don't take orders. I'll either walk away or start some type of quarrel. Or, I can't accept a gift w/o feeling like that person wants something in return. So, I don't accept gifts unless I want to give something in return. little things add up every day that constantly isolate what I go through to what others who have lived in the real world go through. I wish it was as simple as you say, And I can't wait for the day that I've conquered all my obstacles that remind me of my past. But until than I'll still feel like I can't relate with others who have not gone through similar things. (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Friday, November 15, 2002, 15:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know who you are but your last paragraph was amazing! You seem to capture everything I feel as well.This is the exact reason I come to this site. (reply to this comment)

from Ian Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Fuck. Sarafina already has a man. I am deeply depressed and now I need to get high. Ian (reply to this comment)

From Jared (Rick) Saturday, November 16, 2002, 11:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey man remember me, howzit going(reply to this comment)

From Ian Saturday, November 16, 2002, 20:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Jared/Rick Wow, long time no talky. Remember when you tried to shoot me with a nail gun? Anyhoo, I remember you being the coolest thing around, definitly a breath of fresh air compared to the rest of those assholes. Stay cool. Ian (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 12:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Ian, Maybe you'd better explain why he shot at you with the nail gun so people don't get the wwrong Idea...lol(reply to this comment)

From Ian Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 13:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Fair enough.......This was back in Nagoya and it was during a time when we had to ask permission if we wanted to hook-up, "share", fuck (or whatever term you wish). Naturally, being the socially skilled loser that I am, I decided to ask her father if I could "do" her. His reply was something along the lines of "You don't need to ask me, she'll say no all on her own" and then he opened fire. And so I was forced to concentrate my unlucky energy on Kishi, Maria, Becky, Anaik, Windy, and of course "shower peeking" and anyone who I may have overlooked. All told my 17th year was a great year in the "not getting laid" department. Special thanks to Sara and her father who helped make it all possible. I did meet Vicky/Monique that year, but I'm fairly certain she thought I was a dork and we didn't really get to know each other until about 3 years later. "Another fine post by ian" (reply to this comment)

From JoeH Thursday, November 21, 2002, 03:18 (Agree/Disagree?) great story Ian, incidentally, my 17th year was also pretty spectacular in the "not getting laid" department, so don't feel too bad.(reply to this comment)

From Bella Thursday, November 21, 2002, 03:15 (Agree/Disagree?) So you were "forced to concentrate my unlucky energy on Kishi, Maria, Becky, Anaik, Windy" ... OH MAN -- you're breakin' my heart! And all those ice creams you use to sneak to Maria and I, weren't just because you were a "cool guy" ... you actually had "other" motives?? ;-)(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry bro, Lets hook up and drink some beer & smoke some kind. Peace bro!(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:31 (Agree/Disagree?) P.s No more peeking in the shower. lol(reply to this comment)

From Ian Friday, November 15, 2002, 23:46 (Agree/Disagree?) I wasn't "peeking". It was a public shower and I just walked in. Ian(reply to this comment)

from Jerseygirl Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:25 (Agree/Disagree?) I for one am not against listening(or reading)an outside opinion to that of my own. The thing I don't seem to get here is why people who haven't been in the group, come to this site and think we're all whining for sympathy from them? We're talking (or writing) here to EACH OTHER! To others who have experienced what we have. Similar to various other types of internet sites where a person might go to interact with whom he/she can directly relate to. It's really not that everyone here is trying to say that as ex culties we've had it the worst. Please, I don't think any of us are that naive.Do women who have been raped, for example, go to a support site to chat/post because they feel thay are the only women ever to have been raped or abused?I can't speak for everyone but I know that for me this site is the only place I have to talk about or MURMUR (OMG!)about my past. I do not talk about any of these issues with my day to day friends and I do not sit all day trying to get people to feel sorry for me.I understand others have suffered but that does not make my own sufferings irrelevant to me. If getting sympathy were the goal then these observations would be appropriate but since it is not, I suggest you and others might want to find the type of site, or not, that makes you happy!Isn't that what it's all about anyways? (reply to this comment)

From JoeH Friday, November 15, 2002, 15:48 (Agree/Disagree?) well done, jers! I think if I had taken the time to get past the initial outrage that I felt when I read this moron's article I would have posted something very similar to what you said.(reply to this comment)

From Rob W Saturday, November 16, 2002, 01:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm still trying to understand what your so "outraged" at? I wasn't trying to upset anyone one maybe I came across too strong. Like I said I'm just trying to relate. To be honest sarafinas been trying for years to get me to understand but it's hard so all I can do is relate it to my own experiences if the bothers you so much I'm sorry. I'm not trying to take away anyone right to the pain the went through.. Maybe if you shared it I might understand better.(reply to this comment)

From JoeH Sunday, November 17, 2002, 16:57 (Agree/Disagree?) If it's so hard for you to understand, maybe we don't have a lot in common? Maybe trying to figure it out is an exercise in futility (I'd like to put forth a "you had to be there" theory) and all you need to do is love her the way I'm sure she loves you. One of the things we have when dealing with our past is the knowledge, however false, that we are unique and different, so when you come here and tell us that we're not, it's pretty insulting. Will you leave our little elitist fantasy alone please? I think there's a lot (which btw is two words and spelled with only one "l") of evidence to support it, in fact that could be an interesting discussion. We're all aware that we are not the only people who had it bad, but that doesn't make us "normal." And if you could be normal, would you want to be?(reply to this comment)

from Auty Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Whenever I get really down about what I went through I pull out a book called "A Child Named It" & the sequel "The Lost Boy." It always seems to remind me that my lot in life could of been worse. Give a hug to your girlie for me! ~Autumn~ (reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 04:54 (Agree/Disagree?) I read 'A child named It' in two hours sitting in a book store, crying most of the way through. It was so incredibly heart-breaking, I didn't have the courage to read the sequel. (reply to this comment)

from AndrewJ Friday, November 15, 2002 - 15:06