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Getting Through : Dealing
Rick's Death | from calmbomb - Monday, April 02, 2007
accessed 1454 times What could have been done to stop it? In my opinion, this situation could have been completely avoided and it would have been fair to him (and Angela) to get him commited for it ahead of time. I've been wondering about this for some time now:
Since Davidito's wife knew that he was going to commit the crime that he committed, why didn't she stop it? Why didn't she ask for help? Why didn't she report it to the authorities before hand? I saw the big sob story of hers, but come to think of it, she allowed it to happen right before her eyes, and she said herself that she saw it coming! She loved him, she was concerned about him, but somehow I can't connect all of this.
If someone not only threatens to kill himself once, but repeatedly, the world would view it as a mental condition. By the looks of his video, it seemed as if he needed medical attention. TF fucked him up, but if his friends and loved ones were so much more wonderful, they would have given him the attention he obviously needed.
It sounds like Family propaganda to just twist around a situation like this one, to use it to their own advantage. This is what TF did, immediately after hearing the news. If anyone is using this situation to their own advantage and not seeing it as the sad MISTAKE that it was, they're no worse than TF.
Rick was used to prove a bogus point! The world did not listen, neither did the Family (predictable), and 2 human lives were taken from it as a result of carelessness from both sides.
Whaddia think? |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from ..........§
Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 15:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
at the end of the day, things speak for its self. Those who loved/new/identify/sympathize/understand etc.. Ricky will continue to seek justice for him as much as for themselves and/or others.
TFI and his mother- and I use that term loosely- only speak in terms of damage control.
(reply to this comment)
| from bigger picture..
Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 09:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0007236379/ref=pd_ys_pym_all_6/026-1614428-7938023
(reply to this comment)
| from cheeks
Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 09:13
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I don't know how to say this and have it come out nicely, so I am just going to say it. You are very young, you have just recently left the Family. I can understand your confusion on this issue esp seeing as you have has to listen to crap the Family has been telling you. Even if you knew at the time it was crap it takes a while for it to get out of your system. I think in some of these situations you have to have been there in order to understand his motivation. I am not saying what he did was right, but I do understand the motivation behind it.
I also don't think it is fair to sit here and cast blame on anyone for what he did, he was responsible for his actions. I don't think it is fair to cast blame on him for what he did as he is no longer here to defend his actions. We have to understand his pain, his anger and his angish for what was done to him. We need to be outraged that the people who commited these acts have never faced the long arm of the law instead they are tucked away and live a pampered life on the sweat and tears of others. I believe that their day will come if nothing else than for Rickys sake.
(reply to this comment)
|  From calmbomb
Saturday, December 08, 2007, 10:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'd have to disagree with you on that cheeks. My initial reaction to the video was that of immediate anger and the need for revenge, and I'm sure that was the immediate reaction all of you had. I felt all kinds of things when I first saw that video, I felt victorious, angry, and sad for Rick's sake. I think it took me awhile to put it in a logical perspective. YES, Karen Zerby, Peter Amsterdam, Berg... whomever... all deserve the worst treatment the world has to offer, but to say that Ricky was in the right by committing the crimes that he did... even though it was heroic in some ways, is like saying we ALL have the right to take our revenge on anyone and everyone who has wronged us.
I do know that no one is perfect, and there are even members of this sight who I know well and wish would just... die... for all they put me though when I was young; but I know that I can't make my physical body go much further than just the Thinking about hunting them down with a knife and duct tape. That is my limit, just the idea, not the action... and that is the way the balanced human mind should operate.
Point being that No One has the right to act out their anger. No one has the right to beat their dog for chewing up a favorite shoe; no one has the right to beat a child in anger for disobeying. These things definitely appeal to our human minds, and they sure worked for TF, but if you think that Rick has officially Righted all of TF's wrongs by taking such actions, think again.
Lets just all grab guns and kill all of the Family leadership and steal away all of our little brothers and sisters while we're at it. It would feel right, but it would do absolutely no good for anyone.
I know that I'm young cheeks, and I'm at the beginning of my decision making life, and I know that there are going to be alot more decisions I'll have to make in the not to far future. But I feel like YOU ALL have a very immature way of looking at some things. I'm not sure that I'll feel very differently 10 years from now to be perfectly honest with you.
You can call it the cult influence that’s not making its way out easily, but I see it in reverse.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Lithium
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 13:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
We do have the right to revenge as humans, much as a wounded animal will attack the source of its pain, or will defend its cubs or pride by attacking the predator who threatens them. However, as we choose to live within the boundaries of society, we must abide by its laws and essentially abdicate that right of choice to a law which does not always favour the innocent or damaged party. (reply to this comment) |
| | From conan
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 13:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
We have the right as animals, not as humans. As humans, are rights are decided by society, often times with rules and laws put into place years, decades, and centuries prior to our arrival. While our animalistic instinct may be that of avenging ourselves on our abusers or those who wronged us, by doing what is in out nature to do, we then in turn are liable to be considered guilty by the society who deemed our slight insignificant, or not worthy of the level of punishment we'd like to inflict or see inflicted.
Besides the obvious conundrum of the injured party being the only one to be able to measure the amount of justice that they would deem worthy of their injured pride, ego, psyche, etc., to be sated, we also have the issue of the one doing the damage who may or may not view what they're doing/did as wrong, injurious, or hurtful.
This is far too complex an issue to put in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' as those words and notions are open to interpretation as well. You can be adamantly right in your mind as to your innocence, your need for revenge, or your claims at having been harmed, but a jury of your peers or any other arm of the law may not agree leaving you to feel 'wronged' all over again. You can't possibly draw a line and as blind as justice may be, 'if the gloves don't fit, you must acquit'. There have been many infamous cases that have proven that those involved in the system of justice certainly have the ability to see, which in turn makes them vulnerable to blurred, double vision, as well as the abilities of a skilled lawyer or criminal to create illusions of the truth which would affect the outcome of 'justice'.
Okay, this is going to go nowhere as it's such a blurry topic. Calmbomb, remember that no matter what you believe to be right, true and good, someone else believes to be wrong, false and malicious. You can't ever assume that your logical thought process will result in a similar end-goal to others, and Lithium, humans do not have right to revenge by current societies standards. If we lived in a sate of anarchy, it would be a different story. (reply to this comment) |
| | From vacuous
Monday, December 10, 2007, 18:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
I quit agree with the core of what you are suggesting conan, my first instinct on rights is that they arise in a social context and are based on mutual recognition of interests worth protecting.
Rights and morals seem to be evolved from a pact between interested parties; "I won't kill you if you dont kill me" with the interest of staying alive as the point of recognition.
Justice through law means that individual breaches of this pact do not catalyse the sort of unilateral retaliatory action which errodes the meaning or undermines the stability of the whole agreement. This is because, as argued, the very concept of 'rights' requires plural acknowledgement of mutual interests and is an agreement at heart. Thus the more reinforced and acknowledged a pact is socially, the more enshrined rights become. Consequently retaliation for breaches of rights are themselves subject to a pact in which society defers retaliation to a system of mutually recognised rules.
By this logic any unilateral action goes against and errodes all human rights.
If that makes any sense.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From figaro
Saturday, December 08, 2007, 15:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Considering that you have NO idea how ALL of us look at things there is no way that you can justify what you just said, not to mention that we don't all look at things the same way. So categorizing us all into "you all" is just plain ignorant.
On top of what was just pointed out, that cheeks did not say that what Ricky did was right and that we should all do it or anything else you said, it just so happens that (I believe) a good majority of us happen to look at it in exactly the same way you just described yourself looking at it (myself included) and there are many of us who look at it differently, but that does not mean one is right, or better then the other. Just because you perceive something in a certain way doesn't necessarily mean anyone perceiving it differently is wrong. Also, you are very new to the world of thinking for yourself to be telling others much older and more experienced that their wrong. You also didn't go through everything that some of the older SGAs did, hell, I didn't even go through all of the things some of the older SGAs did, so there is no way you can know how they feel or think about various things that you never even experienced. Even if you had, things affect different people in different ways. (I'm not saying that you aren't able to have an opinion, thoughts, or feelings of those things, I'm just saying that you can't really know how someone else feels or thinks about them, no one can truly say that of any one but themselves. And to lump us all together because of your misunderstanding of one persons view is just plain ignorant.)(reply to this comment) |
| | From calmbomb
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 12:00
 (Agree/Disagree?)
There you go again, comparing age and experience.
I know a good amount of SGAs who feel the same way as I do, and they've been out of the Family for ages, so I don't get your point.
Don't take it personally fig, FYI, I wasn't directing that to you. I understand you've been through a lot, but that’s entirely beside the point.
I understand that it might sound like I'm putting you in a box; you can take it that way if you want to.
The point is that people think I'm looking at what happened in a black and white way, and apparently I'm failing to see the whole picture. The whole picture is out in the open, what happened, happened; and what’s left is a matter of opinion.
You definitely helped prove my point..
You kind of disappoint me, honestly.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From figaro
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 13:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
"so I don't get your point. "
Obviously not!
"The point is that people think I'm looking at what happened in a black and white way, and apparently I'm failing to see the whole picture. The whole picture is out in the open, what happened, happened; and what’s left is a matter of opinion."
First off, when did anyone say you were looking at things in black and white and failing to see the whole picture? I haven't read anyone saying that, if thats the way you perceive our comments to you to mean then that is not fact, but in fact an opinion. SO good job contradicting yourself! You can not say that what other people think is a fact and then start talking about what is and is not a matter of opinion, since it is in fact ALL a matter of opinion! THAT is the point I was making, a point which you yourself validated.
"There you go again, comparing age and experience. "
First off, I did not compare age with experience. I was stating that because of your age you could not have had certain experiences that people older then you had because you were not alive at the time that those things were happening, that is a fact!
(NOW I'm going to compare age with experience) The "age is no indicator for experience" mind setting is something that we all went through when we left, because we found that for our age we had much more experience with pain and hurt and loss then most people 3 times our ages had out in the real world. While you may still be caught up in dealing with that in the outside world, (And it will always hold true for US vs people who grew up in the real world) when your dealing with people who share you background you will find that age IS in fact an indicator for experience in many if not most cases. Since most of us went through the same amount of experiences per year as you did, the more years, the more experience. get it? Plus, to restate my other point, the older they are the more that they went through that was stopped before your time. I'm not saying this is true in all situations, because I know of plenty that its not, most of the time on this site its going to be true!(reply to this comment) |
| | From figaro
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 14:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, I just went and read the other comments down towards the bottom and honestly, I would have to agree with them. You are not seeing the whole picture. There is no way you could see the whole picture since you were not there to see what happened. You basically are accusing his wife and friends of allowing it to happen and doing nothing about it. There is no way that you could have any idea if that is true or not since you were not there.
As for when you said "If someone not only threatens to kill himself once, but repeatedly, the world would view it as a mental condition. By the looks of his video, it seemed as if he needed medical attention." Umm... hello. Did you forget that we were not raised in the normal world? You obviously forgot that we were taught that doctors don't do anything to really help people and the only thing that can help is praying. We were also never told there was such a thing as "a mental condition"! I had many problems growing up that I later found out were metal and medical conditions. Also, Ricky and his wife had been much much deeper indoctrinated into these insane beliefs and complete denials of medical ability then any of us were. they also had not been out of TF for very long and thats not something you just shake off. You simply can not say that they did not do everything they thought they had in their power to do. You also can not say exactly how much they knew or if they knew it before it was too late or not. You were not there, I was not there, no one but who was there can know any of that!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From distressed
Saturday, January 12, 2008, 01:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
thats just the point, you werent the only one there, the injustice spreads far and wide, with everyone making peace in their own way, and no matter what position that may be in,the family is still affecting many lives many years on, and my soulmate who has so much trouble making peace and sense of it all and still breaks right down 6 years on, and we all try and lift our heads up and keep trying, and never give up on the ones we love for all the right reasons, and Ricky made a decision for himself, everyone needs help at some stage, but i agree with cheeks that he is responsible for his own actions. and I also know that pain that just dosent fade, i see on this site a guy who cries for how he was wronged, but i know he didnt cry when he raped my now wife when she was eleven,then to be found out when she miscarried by the leaders and blamed for provoking the whole thing, silence restriction for 100 days, thats a good way to help someone who has just been brutally raped isnt it? I never try and insult my best friend in this world by saying I understand, I just stand by my family,in a real life that we deserve, and missed out on for way too long, so I'm sure Ricky needed help, and I wish he could have found it, just like too many I have seen give up and take their own life, too many good lives, good people, we are all coming to grips with it however we can.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From calmbomb
Monday, December 10, 2007, 11:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
So what you're trying to say is that just because we were born and raised in the Family, for us, recognizing any sort of mental condition is an automatic impossibility... We're just a bunch of handicapped individuals with no hope for a life in the future. (That’s REALLY what you're saying)
Speak for yourself, for one...
I've known for a long time that prayer doesn't work, at least since the last several years of my life in the Family, maybe I wasn't "sold out" enough to let myself become such an absolute "believing without seeing" brainless retard, prayer warrior. You must have made an excellent Family member fig.
Jesus Christ… and I AM THE ONE looking at it in black and white.
Further, Rick was out of TF for a good while before he commit suicide. If he couldn't get it together within that period of time, there was obviously something wrong with him. And YES I do blame anyone else who knew him or who was intimately involved with him; unless all of them have a few loose screws as well...
Also, you basically repeated yourself about age and experience, so no need to repeat it a third time after this, because that’s really and truly the only argument you have.
I guess the point is that if you, fig, had the opportunity to redo everything that happened, I don't think you would. Need I say more?
I'm sorry, what you wrote was very childish; I'm still not convinced you believe it either.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From figaro
Monday, December 10, 2007, 13:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow, you really blow my mind how badly you can completely miss the point and somehow come to the conclusion that I am saying something that is not even close! Have you have your reading and comprehension tested? You might want to do that, and take some classes, it might help you out a bit!
"So what you're trying to say is that just because we were born and raised in the Family, for us, recognizing any sort of mental condition is an automatic impossibility... We're just a bunch of handicapped individuals with no hope for a life in the future. (That’s REALLY what you're saying)"
NO, that is NOT what I said, not even close! (How the hell do you come up with this CRAP??)
I said that ,growing up, we were not TAUGHT that mental conditions exists or what indicators to look for (I did NOT say that we can never learn it afterwards), so MAYBE they didn't know that he might have had a mental condition! Is that simple enough for you or do I need to bring it down another notch?
"I've known for a long time that prayer doesn't work, at least since the last several years of my life in the Family, maybe I wasn't "sold out" enough to let myself become such an absolute "believing without seeing" brainless retard, prayer warrior. You must have made an excellent Family member fig."
Neither did I, but that is our BELIEFS, some people still believe in God and prayer even after they leave the family. So to say that because you don't believe it then they were stupid because they might have is just ridiculous! Besides, I am not even saying they did believe that, I am saying thats what THEY TOLD US growing up! And me and you didn't grow up quite the way Ricky and his wife did, they were indoctrinated FAR more the us. So to put it simply, all that I'm trying to get through to you is that we don't know what exactly was going through their minds, or what all they did or did not try to do, Thats all I am saying! Neither am I saying any of these things are absolute, I'm simply trying to point out possibilities that you may not have considered.
"Jesus Christ… and I AM THE ONE looking at it in black and white. "
I didn't say you were. I said you are not seeing the whole picture. That is an absolute fact, there is NO WAY you could know everything that happened or was going through the minds of the people involved!
"Further, Rick was out of TF for a good while before he commit suicide. If he couldn't get it together within that period of time, there was obviously something wrong with him. And YES I do blame anyone else who knew him or who was intimately involved with him; unless all of them have a few loose screws as well..."
This is the most callused, self righteous, ignorant, and arrogant bullshit statement I have ever heard. Fuck you!!
"Also, you basically repeated yourself about age and experience, so no need to repeat it a third time after this, because that’s really and truly the only argument you have."
No, I did not. You obviously are far to narrow minded to understand the points I am making. I don't think you are even TRYING to understand me, I think you are so convinced your right you wont even take a moment to even think or CONSIDER that maybe you are wrong. Its ok though, we all went through it, every child thinks they know everything, and the only way they can learn is through time, because eventually most of us grow up!
"I guess the point is that if you, fig, had the opportunity to redo everything that happened, I don't think you would. Need I say more?"
That statement doesn't even make sense! I was not involved in what happened, and if I had the chance to do things over again knowing what I know now then yes, I would do a lot of things differently, because I used to be just like you and I now realize how wrong I was!(reply to this comment) |
| | From vix
Sunday, December 09, 2007, 13:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't actually recall anyone saying that you're looking at things in a black and white way (but I'm not going to re-read all the comments to check, so feel free to call me out on it if necessary), rather I think that the main gist of 'people's' opinions has been that you're looking at things in a simplistic way, and subsequently appropriating responsibility for Ricky's actions onto people who do not deserve to bear it. You're of course free to continue holding your opinion, and by the same token, others are free to continue to express their reasoning for disagreeing with it.
I imagine it's annoying when people tell you that you have only been out of TF for a relatively short time and you probably feel as if it's intentionally patronising, but I'm sorry, it's true, and you probably *will* find that your world view does change quite dramatically over the next five - ten years, as your own identity develops and your thinking becomes less influenced by the cult's teachings. Plus you'll be five to ten years older and have more experience to base your judgements on. Nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with it, either, if your opinions *don't* change all that much (although I would question, in that case, whether you've successfully disengaged yourself from the way in which you were programmed to think and relate to the world, simply because throwing out all one's old constructs is such a good way of encouraging one's personality to find its own equilibrium), but in the meantime I'd caution against being quite so quick to disregard many many cumulative years of collective wisdom that people here have gained.
May I ask what point fig helped to prove in his comment above, and also to explain why you are disappointed in him.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From calmbomb
Saturday, December 08, 2007, 10:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'd have to disagree with you on that cheeks. My initial reaction to the video was that of immediate anger and the need for revenge, and I'm sure that was the immediate reaction all of you had. I felt all kinds of things when I first saw that video, I felt victorious, angry, and sad for Rick's sake. I think it took me awhile to put it in a logical perspective. YES, Karen Zerby, Peter Amsterdam, Berg... whomever... all deserve the worst treatment the world has to offer, but to say that Ricky was in the right by committing the crimes that he did... even though it was heroic in some ways, is like saying we ALL have the right to take our revenge on anyone and everyone who has wronged us.
I do know that no one is perfect, and there are even members of this sight who I know well and wish would just... die... for all they put me though when I was young; but I know that I can't make my physical body go much further than just the Thinking about hunting them down with a knife and duct tape. That is my limit, just the idea, not the action... and that is the way the balanced human mind should operate.
Point being that No One has the right to act out their anger. No one has the right to beat their dog for chewing up a favorite shoe; no one has the right to beat a child in anger for disobeying. These things definitely appeal to our human minds, and they sure worked for TF, but if you think that Rick has officially Righted all of TF's wrongs by taking such actions, think again.
Lets just all grab guns and kill all of the Family leadership and steal away all of our little brothers and sisters while we're at it. It would feel right, but it would do absolutely no good for anyone.
I know that I'm young cheeks, and I'm at the beginning of my decision making life, and I know that there are going to be alot more decisions I'll have to make in the not to far future. But I feel like YOU ALL have a very immature way of looking at some things. I'm not sure that I'll feel very differently 10 years from now to be perfectly honest with you.
You can call it the cult influence that’s not making its way out easily, but I see it in reverse.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Nick
Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 07:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think you are looking at it a little to simplistically.
For a start his wife did not know that he was planning on doing this. He may have mentioned at some point how he would like to harm those that abused him, but that’s something that everyone says at one point or another. "Oh I am gonna kill that fucker if I get my hands on him."
And to be honest, I really doubt that Rickey even knew the extent of his plan till maybe a few days before he sent the vid.
Also, you can not just commit a person just because they are acting a little strangely. It is very, very hard to commit someone and take away their freedom unless they are a direct danger to themselves or society. Just like you can not just have someone thrown in jail because you don't like the way they are acting. Infact I don't think that Ricky was acting all that strange, but was probably acting more like the any typical abuse victim that would be troubled inside and trying to find himself. Not at all someone that needed to be committed.
I have seen some comments on here where people are saying "hindsight is 2020" however in this case I don't think so. Some of his closest friends that had spent hrs talking to him about his problems and while there was anger and hatred inside, I do not know of one case where he admitted his plans to anyone.
(reply to this comment)
| From Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 09:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
I find it interesting that you should say, "His wife did not know." Just recently, on the Anderson Cooper 360 show, Ricky's wife informed viewers around the world that Ricky invited her to "die with him." If this is any indiciation of her knowledge of the events surrounding his death, I agree with calmbomb, insofar as the wife (and close friends) had a responsibility to society to inform the proper authorities of Ricky's intentions. Further, during Ricky's memorial, his wife was clearly aware of her husband's mental deficiencies prior to his act of January 2005.
I find it naive that anyone should think that, given what this individual lived through, and given the fact that he had made threats before that were ignored, someone holds responsibility for his death. I cannot accept that his wife, the closest person to him, knew nothing. Sorry, in this day and age, with psychiatric science being what it is, I believe it is plausible that someone could have saved Ricky.
Instead, we chose his moment of weakness to make an example out of him, to our own end. Something the family would call a martyr.
I think a key question here is, where were his friends when this happened? (reply to this comment) |
| | From Albatross
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 10:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ricky's wife did not know. Once she figured out something was going on, she called the local cops in her city in a different state who were less than helpful.
As for the metal illness argument you are making...if it were that simple, I would have long ago had my parents taken to "night court" and then locked up. The loosely connected and often geographically separated association we have with each other do not easily lend themselves to what you are suggesting. This is especially true of Ricky's case as he intentionally kept his distance from all but a very few.
As a personal aside, I do not believe that Ricky was mentally ill. It is possible to be tormented by abuse and a life of torture without having an actual mental illness. The need to seek justice, even violent vigilante justice, against one's tormentors, can be felt, planned, and executed by even the most sane and rational people. Mental illness on the other hand, is I think, demonstrated by cases such as the recent angry shooter in Omaha who killed 8 random and innocent people just because he was mad at the world and wanted to "be famous." I believe that those who see a place for extra-judicial "vigilante" justice in extreme situations, may sympathize with Ricky's execution of Angela Smith.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mental illness
Thursday, January 10, 2008, 10:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Mental illness is a very interesting subject.
What's the difference between someone who sufferes from psychological personality disorders and one who is mentally ill?
It would be impossible for anyone having only witnessed, let alone lived through what Rick did not to have one of the more sever cases of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder on the books, which is very dibilitiating and life-altering, not to mention depression.
Many survivors of abuse suffer from personality disorders as the result of their ordeal. Disorders seldom come alone, I.E. PTSD, is very often accompanied by some for of ADHD/Compulsive behavior, anger issus, depression etc., most psych professors will tell you that disorders come in pairs or triplettes.
At what point do untreate disorders open the door to criminal behavior as exhibited by Rick?
(reply to this comment) |
| | From annoyed at Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 09:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
By the time he told his wife "come die with me", he was already on the road with his gun finding a place to die. His wife did call the authorities after he hung up the call with her, but by then it was too late. She had no idea the full extent of what he had done till they found the bodies. But you would know that if you followed the story even remotely.
No one is making an example of him insofar that he, by choice, did not make of himself. He knew no one would pay attention, and certainly no justice would be seen, unless something drastic happened.
While it is tragic that it should have occurred at all, you can be certain that the public would not have sat up and taken any notice at all if it hadn't happened. Sadly, human nature requires shocking tragedy to jolt them out of their usual indifference. I can also tell you that all his friends who spoke with him in the days leading up to his death tried to offer him support and told him repeatedly to hold on and not do anything stupid. No one had any idea the extent of what he had planned however, or you can be certain more action would have been taken. He had deliberately distanced himself from his friends and family and was not living near any of them. The only communication they had with him, to my knowledge, was over the phone, and you tell me how much is lost in translation over a phone call.
I would be careful about being so quick to point an accusatory finger at anyone without checking the hard facts.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 09:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
So, are you telling me that, had Ricky received proper help, he would have killed himself? Is that really what you are saying? So you are discounting the fact that psychiatric assistance would have helped him?
What concerns me with this mentality is that other individuals, who have similar stories to Ricky (certainly not to the extent of which he suffered), are not going to get help. Is it for the same reason that you so eloquently stated, "A shocking tragedy?"
The point was not to point the finger or accuse anyone; rather, to figure out where we went wrong with this. How can we assist others in Ricky’s shoes? What good did his death accomplish for those of us that are fighting this oppressive and insane group? For one thing, it only served to make members of TF more paranoid and crazy.(reply to this comment) |
| | From annoyed at Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 11:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
He had to want psychiatric assistance, it is not something anyone could have forced on him.
You say you are not pointing the finger, yet alluded to his wife and friends being in some way accountable twice. That imho is finger pointing.
What his death did accomplish, as I mentioned before, is widespread publicity which is keeping the spotlight on the cult, something that is needed in order to obtain public support towards actions that will help us find justice - such as the statue of limitations being lifted so we can file a case.(reply to this comment) |
| | From vix
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 10:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and i'm sure we all wish that Ricky could have been helped, but I think you are making a grave error of judgement in putting any burden of responsibility for Ricky's actions onto his friends. It is a sad fact of life that many times an individual's closest friends and family will not be fully aware of the extremes to which that person's psychological state has deteriorated, which is why suicides often take so long to grieve over.
Further, 'we' did not go wrong with this. It was a personal decision made by one person alone, and it is doubtful that anything that anyone might have said to Ricky at that time would have been enough to avert him from his chosen path.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 09:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
We're not talking about Angela, are we? And, for the record, I don't care about your issues. I have just as much a platform to speak on this site as anyone else. Further, your tone indicates that you simply did not even read my post in its entirety. If that is, in fact, the case, please re-read it.
Thank you, and have a wonderful day (if that is even possible).(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Samuel
Tuesday, April 03, 2007, 09:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
You are right, Nick. CB, I am afraid you are looking at the issue too simplistically. It is a shame that no one noticed what was going on, as I do beleive those who knew Ricky would have wanted to get him help.
Sometimes I go back and read Ricky's last article, "Still Around". Unfortunately, no one understood what Ricky meant when he said he wanted to bring The Family down and was loking for people to help him, preferrably someone who has nothing to do lose. I saw that as a plea for help to rbing TF down thorugh the court system. Some of us had been talking about it for a while, and I was thrilled that Ricky seemed willing to help in something like that.
Of course now we understand what he meant when he wrote that. If we had been paying attention, he was dropping clues. But we dropped the ball. In fact, I guess you could say we let Ricky down.
Rest in Peace, Ricky.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Oddman
Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 05:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's so easy to place blame, when looking at what has already happened. Retrospect is always a wider perspective, and you see much of what you could not see before. It's like coming to a cross road on a curve. You sometimes just don't see the Dodge Ram coming until you've stepped off the curb. Especially in cases of persons who suffer from depression or other psychological maladies, or are under heavy stress, the step from "nice guy on the block" to "mass murderer" cannot be easily predicted. Also, when you've known someone a long time, and love the person very dearly, it is difficult to imagine that they may be capable of such violence. I believe that ricky's true friends did everything they could to heal his wounds, and if given an opportunity to prevent the events of January 8th, 2005, they would have done everything in their power to do so. While I don't condone Ricky's actions, I think it is extremely heartless and shortsighted to pin the blame on those survived by him.
(reply to this comment)
| from vix
Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 02:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2405
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2396
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2676
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2433
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2401
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2661
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=34&ID=2375
(reply to this comment)
| from GetReal
Monday, April 02, 2007 - 22:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
wanting to harm some one that has harmed you is a natural reaction as far as i have observed . If any kind of person even a helpless woman walked up to you and punched you in face what would you do?It is the same when you are harmed as a child only much worse as you don't know what wrong with your self.I personally put all the blame on the fuckers that fucked with him , not his friends that DID try and help him. Some times "help" is just not good enough .
take care
(reply to this comment)
| From Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 09:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ah, this is where our opinions differ. Help comes in many different forms. Unfortunately, the "help" Ricky received from his friends was simply not enough.
Putting this in perspective:
A man is severely depressed because his step-father beat him every day as a child. He is becoming more and more erratic and refuses any type of help. His wife, one day, calls the police, due to his crazy behavior and he is subsequently admitted to a psychiatric facility. There, through therapy, he realizes that his anger was displaced, and searches to find the root cause of his illness (yes, I said illness). Thereafter, he is taking his medication and turns a corner. He is by no means healthy, but at least he knows where he can find help, should he need it again.
People are so quick to discount a mental illness, whatever the cause. This is the sad and unfortunate reality for many. The lucky ones have a support system that will stand strong and not allow this illness to consume their life.
Unfortunately for Ricky, he had no one.(reply to this comment) |
| | From IMO no amount..
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 11:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
of counseling or pills would have been able to tell him his 'anger was misplaced'. It was directed at his abusers. Angela and his mother the cult leader.
He knew what he was about to do , but obviously thought it was deserved. Like he said in his video. In some places you have a right to kill a rapist.
He is not the only person who takes justice into his own hands. If his mother had not been so deceitful, stubborn and cold-hearted and admitted to our generations abuse and properly tried to make amends to our generation, this would never have happened. She, angela and the group have bought their own bad karma on themselves and will continue to until they change course.
I hate to say this but you have a very self- righteous tone. You have to put yourself in other peoples shoes, instead of thinking "i wouldn't do that!" (reply to this comment) |
| | From nice movie
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 09:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yes, people are quick to discount mental illness. That includes the authorities. How informed are you about the major limitations on who can be involuntarily committed in the USA? When it comes to seeking help voluntarily, I refer you to the many posts here by otherwise smart and accomplished people who to varying degrees dismiss, mock or loathe therapy. You tell me how their friends (who are not home shepherds and in this world have no power over another adult, whether or not married or related) are going to make them get help. Of course the psychological abuse, intrusions and invasion that the Family's "shepherding" style ionvolves gets a lot of credit for setting these attitudes which are then hard to overcome.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Annoyed
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 10:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Actually, I do have some experience with this, being in the legal field. Oftentimes, a psychiatric unit will have an evening court to determine if an individual should be committed, or not. It is not that difficult, surprisingly, if the individual has made violent threats against his/her person and/or others.
You using the term "shepard" has brought back memories that I do not care to recall.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From solemn
Thursday, December 06, 2007, 10:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
In order to be "committed", as you put it, requires that a person be 1) a danger to one's self 2) a danger to others 3) gravely disabled. I worked in an acute psychiatric hospital for years and never once was a "Night court" held, unless you are talking about a 5250 hearing which occurs 72 hours after a 5150 hold is issued. And a 5150 is certainly not as easy as you make it seem. A person would have to exhibit behavior, whether verbalizing, or otherwise expressing suicidal or homicidal plans or ideations during an interview. Someone making a call stating that a person is alluding to this type of behavior is useless if the person is able to state something like "I was upset and said some stupid things", or "We all get angry, but I would never do anything like that", and shows no intention of following through on what they may claim to be flippant statements.
(reply to this comment) |
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