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from steam Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 08:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Just came to this article from one of your other comments. I have to say I am sure you have grown out of this thought process by now. The idea that God would cause all those problems to turn you to him would just prove that he is horrible. I am a Dad and if I decided to cause all sorts of terrible things in my kids lives becuase they weren't paying enough attention to me, would you consider this a reason for the kids to realise the error of their ways and run to my arms? No it would be proof I am a sick sadistic person who they should run farther from. Of course I don't think God was doing any of that because I don't see any reason to believe he exists. You can find a million people who serve God with all their hearts with much worse "luck" in their lives, and a million who don't believe in him with great "luck". Or you could flip that the other way just as easily, but I do know the temptation is there from our upbringing to think like that about prayer as some sort of "just in case" insurance policy. (reply to this comment)

from Christy Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 09:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I think I get where you're coming from on this one. I'm going through a similar crisis at the the moment. I think that those of us who feel the urge to turn to a higher power during the face of potential or actual disaster/crisis most likely have all along believed that this higher power existed. Most of the time I'm satisfied with being confused about religion. Some things I've experienced in life have left little doubt in my mind that there must be a higher power that has some limited control over my life. Yet, probably thanks to all the indoctrination I've had to endure, I tend to reject anything of a religious nature. However, when tough times hit, it does make me want to delve a little more into my belief system, and to question whether that someone out there could in some way help me through the crisis. Maybe it's a crutch, but sometimes I think it can help me weather the storm. (reply to this comment)

from Rain Child Friday, March 03, 2006 - 05:44 (Agree/Disagree?) How interesting that you should mention that phrase. It has, in fact, run like a mantra through my head since leaving six years ago. I first heard that phrase, as I'm sure we all did, when "Grandpa" quoted the lyrics to the song "I did it my way" and called it a "horrible, horrible song by Frank Sinatra", thus making Sinatra the only one of the old crooners who was not acceptable listening, not in the "my old favourites" catagory. Even at the age of six or seven, when all I knew about the song was the title and that line, and Grandpa's hatred of it, I thought, "How truly wonderful to bloody but unbowed, and to "do it your way". It made a huge impression on me, and yes, I have been dreadfully battered and bloodied since striking out on my own. At first I was constantly imagining my 'traumatic testimony' when I finally came 'home' like some 'prodigal daughter'. But that song, well, that line at least, carried me through many moments of self-doubt. I was thinking about those songs we used to sing to Jesus, "you're my bread when I am hungry... you're my shelter from the troubled wind, You're my anchor in life's ocean, but most of all, You're my best friend..." And I realised why I had been so adrift. Look at all I had lost. This concept was what I had turned to for absolutely everything. No wonder I have a co-dependent personality disorder now. We were always told it was only Jesus, and without him we are nothing. I think of the movie, "The Island." We are like babies when it comes to having faith in ourselves, and knowing how to find what we need inside of us rather than always depending on Jesus for everything. I find myself automatically praying in most scary or desperate situations, and I do believe prayer is a good thing, but it has to be about you, not about feeling hopeless and depending on 'God' to bail you out, because he won't. To me prayer now, is more about affirming and channeling your own power and strength. And be bloody but unbowed and proud of it! that's what we're fighting for! Freedom to think for ourselves and discover and be ourselves. I honestly don't care if I starve to death doing it. At least I'll die using my own mind and making my own decisions. Go Frank Sinatra! (reply to this comment)

from vixen Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 03:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, babe, I'm of the opinion that your asking this question in fact demonstrates that you do still, in your heart of hearts, believe in God, and that your rejection of that belief up till now has been more of a superficial rebellion rather than an actual intellectual progression. Nothing wrong with that either. It all depends on what you want, really. Do you want to perpetuate the mindless, paranoid and yes, weak, throught processes that were built into you, or would you rather put up with a great deal of uncertainty and perhaps even insecurity, until your psyche adjusts to the fact that you are and always will be alone in this world, that nothing is planned and that sometimes really shitty things happen to decent people? You have to decide if it's more important for you to feel 'safe' in the arms of some invisible protector whose strength you can fall back on instead of having to cope solely on your own strength of character, than it is for you to learn to live with, and thrive in spite of, the existential dillemma that causes many of us such anguish at times. (reply to this comment)

from WWJD Friday, February 24, 2006 - 21:01 (Agree/Disagree?) I know that amongst all the cussing and dissing God - something inside you is telling you He is real. That is because he is real. People want proof that He exists, the proof will come when we put our pride to one side and open up our spirit to Him. The proof won't be a flash from the sky but an inner peace, all encompassing love, and a sense of purpose, He is able to fix the mess that has been made of our lives. He loves us so much - life just isn't worth living without Him. The way TF treated us and raised us was totally disgusting and they made God out to be horrendously harsh who approved of their abuses. God is loving, merciful, awesome and righteous. He will reveal Himself to you when you truly come to a point where you want to accept who He is because he accepts you - just as you are. I cannot describe to you how wonderful it is to know him REALLY know him! Before I really knew him I continued the work TF started - by abusing my body and making very stupid decisions. Getting to know Jesus Christ and opening my life to Him has been the best decision I have ever made. He has healed the wounds, the hurts and the sorrows brought by the abuses I suffered. In Him I have found more than I could ever ask or dream of. Some people think that believing in God is a crutch, I will take it further I say it's my umbilical chord, the source of my life. I humbly admit that I cannot go through this life without Him and wouldn't even want to. I humbly admit that I screw up - all the time, but He forgives me and I learn from my mistakes, I have changed because of the love and mercy I have been shown by God in my life. I rarely visit this site but what you wrote really struck a chord with me, I'm sorry that you are having such a terrible time. I hope that you will dare to believe in Him, I pray that you will fall into his loving arms and in Him find peace and restoration for your broken heart. (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Sunday, February 26, 2006, 09:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Without offence to the resident Jedi, somehow I have never seen any reason to believe that my emotional needs or wants facilitate a good determination of reality. Believing that God exists because I want him to exist...... seems a bit absurd, no? (reply to this comment)

From porceleindoll Saturday, February 25, 2006, 01:54 (Agree/Disagree?) You say, "People want proof that He exists, the proof will come when we put our pride to one side and open up our spirit to Him." So, what how do you qualify almost our entire lives of living for God and believing in Him? It seems that God would have proven His existence at that time, no?(reply to this comment)

From WWJD Saturday, February 25, 2006, 06:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I take your point. What needs to happen is a gradual process. I think we all agree that the teachings of TF were erroneous. There has to be a separation in our hearts and minds of what they projected to us as being God. The Bible condemns offending children and says it would be better to put a millstone around your neck and cast yourself to the bottom of the sea than to offend a child who believes in Him. We all need to come to a point of conversion on our own, it's a deep and very personal spiritual experience. We cannot subsist on other people's experiences, it has to be our own. Just between us and God - nobody else. For me personally, I could never establish a proper relationship with God when I was constantly being beaten and abused by those people in the name of God. I was terrified of Him and terrified of them. Now that we are free in the literal sense, we can also become free in the spiritual sense and seek him out - who is God? what is his character? what is He really like? and this is all outlined in the Bible, he is merciful graceful and all powerful. If you belong to Him nothing can pluck you out of His hand. Not even death itself. If you want to "find yourself" look in the mirror - there you are:) the need to "find" something is the desire God Himself put in your heart to find Him. The piece of the puzzle is Jesus Christ and He fits in perfectly. God will judge all those who hurt you and I have no doubt that Berg is burning in hell for screwing with our minds, bodies and distorting our simple belief in God.(reply to this comment)

from godless Friday, February 24, 2006 - 16:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I don’t know if there is a God or not—I tend to think not. But if there is one I hope that he will see that I am a decent guy who tries to do my best in life. If God is going to punish me because I don’t kneel in worship and prayer to him every few minutes then he is not a God who I want to spend eternity with anyway. Thinking back on when I was a child in the Family I see how irrational prayer is. I remember my mom would have us children pray incessantly when we were on airplanes; she was very paranoid about flying. We would always pray that we wouldn’t crash and also pray for the pilot. Now I realize how stupid that is. If God was looking down at us pitiful children and decided “well these children forgot to pray. Even though they are missionaries and working for me I think I’ll make them crash and kill everyone aboard. Never mind that there are 100’s of others aboard that will die as well.” In my opinion that is a sadistic God. I don’t know if heaven exists—no one has been able to prove it to me. But I do know that my life exists and so I will not waste my precious time here worrying about what might or might not happen to me in a possible heaven. (reply to this comment)

From Fish Saturday, February 25, 2006, 13:49 (Agree/Disagree?) You have found the begining of wisdom, my son.(reply to this comment)

From mamas little gimpie Friday, February 24, 2006, 17:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you Jesus, thank you Lord, praise you Jesus, praise you Lord, thank you lord, thank you lord, thank you jesus, thank you lord, well got to go, got a mountain to climb, souls to win, a harvest to reap, a race to run, a gap to fill, a frown to turn into a smile, a cross to bear, hearts to win, a devil to rebuke, a look of love to give, a heavenly home to make, some lit to hand out, the world to save, and other worlds to conquer/ discover..... thank you jesus, thank you lord, thank you jesus, thank you lord(reply to this comment)

from porceleindoll Friday, February 24, 2006 - 16:11 (Agree/Disagree?) I've tried asking God for help a few times, it doesn't really work. God is a very fair-weather friend. What really gets me upset is that I freely gave God over 20 years of my life in service, even if it was misdirected, in my heart it was to God, and if it's true that God looks on the heart, then He would know that I was sincere in my belief and living my life for Him. So I figure it's His turn to reach out to me before our relationship ever gets fixed. In other words, the more time passes by, the less I believe in the idea of God because He hasn't done much for me personally. The things I have that some people could say are God's blessing in my life, good kids, a safe living environment, my basic daily necessities, I say that all of my heathen neighbors have the same 'blessings' from God, what's the difference? I feel God owes me a bit for dedicating so many years of life to Him. As I said, God is the fair-weather friend. It's been hard at times to not have something to turn to, a security blanket, a crutch, but I think that the power we attributed to God actually comes from within, and by using 'god' to focus on, it forced us to concentrate on something, when in reality it's just us and the focusing of our inner strength on the problem at hand. Sounds a bit New Ageish, but I'm not raising my children to believe that God is essentially impossible to live without. (reply to this comment)

from tuneman7 Friday, February 24, 2006 - 13:26 (Agree/Disagree?) We have nothing to fall back on so it's very difficult being out in the real world. I hear what you're saying. I had a very rough go of it for a few years with no friends, little money, full time work and school, which was very taxing. God isn't judging you and God isn't going to save your ass when you're 60 and have nothing because you were in a cult your whole life. Plus God and the cult leadership have little in common. The only thing that kind of saved me was essentially eliminating sources of stress in my life, I lived simply and like a monk, I only chose friends who were doing similar things with their lives. I realized that social life wasn't going to be a possibility until after university. It was very difficult and I wouldn't want to do it again. Keep your chin up, try to rectify any issue with the law, that stuff doesn't go away, ever. (reply to this comment)

From exister Friday, February 24, 2006, 14:02 (Agree/Disagree?) True statement about the law. I like to say that the state has a memory like a jilted woman. Unresolved offenses will NEVER be forgotten.(reply to this comment)

from cassy Friday, February 24, 2006 - 11:13 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you have to realise that because you were conditioned to think that way all your life, when something goes wrong, or a series of somethings, that your automatic reaction is to think that God is punishing you. However, if you think about it a little more, is it really plausible that God is up there in the sky looking down on you and saying, "Okay, I'm going to crash her car today" and "now I'll send her a headache." I mean it's crazy. I don't believe in God, nor have I prayed for the last 4 years and I have only been sick once, I have not choked on my food because I didn't pray or any of those other things we were told and scared with. Think of all the atheists in the world who win the lottery and strike it lucky. It's a series of unfortunate events, but hardly down to someone planning it out for you and purposely making you trip up. Every one has difficult periods and times when it goes wrong. I just think it would be wrong to think that it has anything to do with being "bloody but unbowed." The day I actually hear God's voice booming out from the sky telling me that He's real is the day I'll believe, otherwise it's all in your head. For what it's worth, that's opinion. (reply to this comment)

from exister Friday, February 24, 2006 - 08:00 (Agree/Disagree?) It may be helpful if I give you a quick synopsis of my first year out of the cult. I left when I was 16 and went to live with my aunt and uncle. I washed dishes and tried to scrape together some semblance of an education. I bought a car and promptly racked up several hundred dollars in traffic tickets. What can I say? Driving was such a rush! A few months later I was getting ready to move into my own place when I totalled my car and got 2 more tickets for that accident. I had roughly $1,000 to my name, so I spent $250 of it on a motorbike. While riding the motorbike to get it inspected I lost my wallet and the $750 that remained. The motorbike wouldn't pass inspection. So, quick inventory. I had no car, no money, impending loss of the roof over my head and an illegal motorcycle. My uncle was kind enough to lend me some money and I rented a room within walking distance of my shit job. The guy I rented the room from got the idea that he was my dad, so I split from there and rented some couch space from a guy at work. Turns out he was all gay for me and his roommate was a fanatical christian who seemed to want to kill me. Getting tossed on your ass by a 240 lb brute and knowing that your "friend" wants to fuck you in the ass probably isn't anyone's idea of a good time. So, I got the fuck out of there and moved into a crackhouse. That is not just a metaphor for a shitty place to live. This was an actual structure where people smoked crack, bit it was all I could afford. I laid low there and got by with only a burglary, a death threat and of course the ever present smell of crack. It's hard to go to college when your parents are broker than you are so after nearly a year of hassles and paperwork I joined the military. Things have been improving pretty steadily ever since. In all of that time it never occured to me to ask God for a helping hand. Maybe I am stupid. Maybe I am stubborn. Or maybe God is dead. Anyway, the point of all of this is to demonstrate that you are not alone in your initial struggles. If you need to participate in the illusion that God exists in order to maintain your sanity then go right ahead, but I doubt such magical thinking will do you much good in the long run. The type of thinking that likely will help you is critical, analytical thinking. Deconstruct your fuckups, find their root cause and take the necessary actions to ensure that they don't happen again. My head has also been literally bloody, and it will always be metaphorically bloody and unbowed, until the worms eat it. Cheers! (reply to this comment)

From Gypsy Wednesday, March 01, 2006, 15:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Txs! Its good to know im not the only one whos encountering "inicial struggles"! To tell u the truth, i suppose i already knew all those answers. Those were the very things i wondered about while in TF, i had miles and miles of questions that would go unanswered.. or with the typical reply "its all by faith"! When it really comes down to it none of it makes sense, thats why im at where im at.. and not regretting it! the last thing i want to do is go right back to wallowing in the mud im trying so hard to get cleaned from. Cheers! To all of us who have had our heads bloody... and are still unbowed! Thats strenght!(reply to this comment)

From WWJD Thursday, March 02, 2006, 07:41 (Agree/Disagree?) There is nothing strong about a bloody head my friend - the next stage after that is death. You will never be clean from the "mud" only the blood of Jesus Christ and His redemption at the cross can save you or any of us.(reply to this comment)

From exister Friday, March 03, 2006, 09:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Ah yes, death. Sweet, sweet death and the peace that only it can bring. At least then I won't ever have to listen to anyone's deluded religious babbling ever again.(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, March 02, 2006, 07:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Glad I could provide a little encouragement. I think the term that best describes how many of us have resolved our initial struggles is "behavioral self-therapy," which is just a fancier term for the process of learning from your mistakes. This process produces fairly good result unless you throw a monkey wrench into the works by engaging magical thinking, religion and other such nonsense. Always remember, this too shall pass.(reply to this comment)

from conjoined twins Friday, February 24, 2006 - 07:38 (Agree/Disagree?) it sounds like you already know what the answer is...give way water always gives way, and when it can't it is stronger than steel; it sinks to the lowest places, and because of this capacity it is the source of life :- taoist ideas, feminine, more beautiful, and maybe easier to slide along with than the 'masculine' idea of God. (reply to this comment)

from buzzbee Friday, February 24, 2006 - 06:26 (Agree/Disagree?) its not a sign of weekness to ask God for help, but rather a sign of strength. (reply to this comment)

From sailor Friday, February 24, 2006, 07:49 (Agree/Disagree?) so it's a "sign of strength" that you need help from an entity in the sky/space/heavenly city/moon to get through your everyday activities? You don't think that relying on yourself rather than other people or god is more of a "sign of strength"? I bet the Zerb could write an awesome GN on this subject, wait, she's probably already written 100. Also is "weekness" some new kind of family lingo or was that just a typo?(reply to this comment)

From buzzbee Saturday, February 25, 2006, 02:19 (Agree/Disagree?) being humble enough to ask God for help, is a strength not a weekness. And if you were wondering...no, I am not part of TF... God is real and doesn't only 'exsist or talked about' in TF..(reply to this comment)

From exister Friday, February 24, 2006, 07:41 (Agree/Disagree?) It is a sign of weakness. A weakness I beat out of myself long ago.(reply to this comment)

From conjoined twins Friday, February 24, 2006, 06:44 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

from sailor Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 19:35 (Agree/Disagree?) If it makes you feel better and be calm when you drive, say whatever you want, I don't think it will hurt you unless it makes you want to go to a religious group and give them 14% of your $. Anyway, if there are angels I wouldn't put to much trust in them because apparently Jacob managed to wrestle one of them them into a standstill. (reply to this comment)