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from Haunted Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 22:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Dude, it takes a while.....for years I asked my mother why.....how could she??....Esp. after becoming a parent and knowing what I would do for my child I could simply NOT understand how she stood by all those years knowing what we were going through. Believe me, she gave me all the excuses at first, the whole "we were brainwashed", "I didn't know any better", "I was scared" crap that to be honest, didn't mean sh*t to me and just didn't freaking cut it..... Now, my mom has appoligised for real, by flat out saying "I was wrong, please forgive me", and hey, I think that's the best we're gonna do at this point. I just wanted her to appoligise (even thought it changes nothing) without blaming someone else and without excuses......but it took many years.... So don't be frustrated if your folks aren't there yet - it was about 10 yrs in coming for me once my mom left..... I don't think I'll ever understand how or why...but it's just nice to know that they know how much they fucked us up..... (reply to this comment)

from mia1 Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 16:12 (Agree/Disagree?) thanks for the comments it's nice to know that my parents aren't the only ones who's parents are a bit off. I don't know if it will help by telling them anything else, I just feel hurt about their lack of concern for myself my siblings and now my children. I don't know what family is like. We have a large family, 11 kids all from the same parents, yeah I know a first, but we don't write hardly call, nothing comunication is so little, even though most of us live in the same town. My parents barely visit their grandkids even though they drive by my house everyday, I have a hard time as I work full-time. But their lack of interest in my kids just reflects the kind of environment I guess we grew up with. I have made efforts to be nice and take time out for them but I can't confront them. I fear they will never understand. It's getting to the point that I don't really care anymore. I think that if I ever get off this island I will never see them again, and I won't care less. sorry this is so long I'm tired. (reply to this comment)

from Baxter Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 07:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Repression, denial upon denial, dismissal, quiet resignation, anger, frustration.......... I don't think there is an objective answer to this question. I'm guessing that everyone has gone through the aforementioned phases at some time or other, if they admit it. In truth, a measured tolerance is possibly the only way (that I can think of) to deal, unless of course your patience becomes exhausted, in which case you will probably decide to detach yourself. Otherwise, I think there is a margin in which one must 'grin and bear it', so to speak. Of course, every so often one finds oneself just cutting loose and letting fly (verbally, that is), which can actually be more productive than it sounds. Sometimes parents have to actually see substantial evidence of the damage they cause, because no amount of devotional reading, prayer and fasting, etc. can erase the parental bond, no matter how fractured and tattered it may seem. And real emotion never lies, and if they don't eventually get the point, at least you'll feel better. (reply to this comment)

From ESJ Thursday, November 03, 2005, 08:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Very true. There is a time for asking reasonable questions, and if no compassionate or understanding answers and apologies are forthcoming, it may be that a timely display of passionate emotion or 'communicative anger' could be just enough to jolt or 'freak out' a closed-minded parent enough to have to have a long, hard think about things. As an ex-FG parent, it took me a long time to understand that just explaining what was happening for me and how deeply brainwashed I was while in TF was not enough for my children, and was not what they most needed to hear. Mostly they needed to be deeply heard and their anger and suffering totally accepted and acknowledged; and they needed my deepest, most heartfelt, unqualified apology. Even with all this, a part of them still hurts. - (And they left relatively young before the worst abuses!) I think the most effective form of communicating when needing to express your anger is not just 'flying off the handle' blaming and name-calling, which the average Family parent will just read as 'demonic hostility', but by asking them to put themselves in your shoes as you explain what you experienced and how it felt. IE: "How would you feel if someone did that to you now at your age as a mature adult? Now imagine how it would have felt to have it happen to you when you were 5, 10, 13...? Do you remember when you were that age? Can you imagine having to deal with something like that when you were at that age? Now can you see how betrayed I feel by your not protecting me from that kind of abusive treament? Do you honestly, truely believe a true prohet of God would teach adults to treat children in such an unloving, inhumane manner?" etc. I'm sure many SG's have already tried this 'reasoned approach' with - from what I hear - mixed results. It would be interesting to hear what has worked for SG's who've had 'breakthroughs' with their parents. (reply to this comment)

from Crissy72790 Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 00:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi, My name is Carrissa, and I too live with a parent who is VERY much in denial...She is the craziest person I have ever met, and I only wish that she would except what she's done. She is the mother of 9 kids, including myself. The eldest is 32, and I (the youngest/except for my twin sister) am 15. She was a BIG FFer, and she allowed me and my other siblings to be molested/raped and abused, not to mention brain washed and worked non-stop singing for money on the streets in foreign countries, for years. The tale of mine and their lives is an extremely disturbing one. Yet she still has no recollection of what REALLY happened. She, to this day, believes that she did nothing wrong and that her kids made up the stories of abuse 'for fun'. I don't know how she can believe that, but like I said, she is insane. She thinks that I tell her that she messed up my life and all her other kids lives to hurt her. My father, who was as much a participant as she was, has lived in Texas since their divorce after leaving TF in 1994. I haven't spent much time, if any, with him since. At first mainly because he had 3 of my siblings to deal with on his own and didn't have time for me and my twin; but now because I despise him and refuse to even try to form a relationship. He is also in denial, but less so than my mother. It is very hard to live with her. She was on Prozac for several years and just recently quit cold-turkey because her boyfriend told her it was bad for her. So it has gotten even harder...I tried to bring up what happened to me with her only a handful of times. But the last time I did she freaked out and said, I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW!! Over and over. Since then I've decided to plan out that sort of conversation a little better. But my older sister Timna, has tried to bring it to her attention more times than any of us can count. She told me that she would have disowned her years ago had it not been for me and my twin sister having to live with her until we turned 18. All she ever wanted from her and my father was one clear apology. Yet, sadly she has been denied even that small solace. Anyways, I feel your pain!! I talk about it with my sister almost daily. We wish that she would get some mental help, but I don't think that she ever will. (reply to this comment)

From feeling your pain Friday, November 04, 2005, 16:42 (Agree/Disagree?) My parents for the most part really don't discuss it much. My dad more so when one of us girls breaks out into song and the others join in. The Family's little ditties seem to set him off. To us it's funny and bonding and to him it reminds him of how he had been deluded for so many years. It maybe the same case with your mom. The humilitation of being deluded into prostitution for so many years. The memories, and guilt for what she has done to herself and her kids. It is so much easier for her to live in her fantisy world than to face the reality that through her actions or lack there of she hurt you and your siblings. Don't force the issue. Just casually bring it up from time to time casually. Once she is comfortable discussing policies and letters break the other stuff to her. But don't drop it on her all at once. The Family wanted to break people and sometimes the weaker ones are unable to put it all back together again.(reply to this comment)

From Eva St John Thursday, November 03, 2005, 07:13 (Agree/Disagree?) As a former FG parent who took a few years to come completely out of the 'brainwashed madenss' of TF, and since then has had to do a lot of apolgizing and healing with my own SG kids, this is a subject that has played on my mind a lot. Even I have found it really hard to relate to other current FG and ex-FG parents who're still either in deep denial, or who are now church Christians and are more worried about whether I'm 'still a true believer' or not, rather than being concerned about the really major issues re: what are we doing to help all the poor ex-SG's whose abuse we contributed to by our involvement with TF. I've been doing a bit of research and thinking a lot on this subject in order to try to really get a handle on it and would like to share more when I can get the time, (am super busy with other things at present). I believe it could be possible for those of us interested in this to come up with some well-thought-out techniques of communication that may be able to break through the walls of delusion and denial, which ex-SG's may be able to use to get through to their parents and current-member siblings. But these will take time to develop and test out. There have been a few times I've succeeded in freeing up a very closed FG parent's mind, which resulted in them and their kids leaving TF soon afterwards. But they could have been at a certain point of secretly questioning things anyway by the time I talked to them. Because I haven't the time to go into any further detail here, all I can suggest for now is getting ahold of the book 'Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People To Think For Themselves' by Steven Hassan (who appeared on the Dr Phil show with Nancy and co). It's mainly written for families and friends who've never been in a cult to relate to and help someone in a cult to see the delusion they're in and leave of their own free will. But it does have some really good stuff in it that could be helpful to ex SG's with family members still under TF's programming, whether they're still in, or they're physically out but not mentally free . For now, all I can say is that for you SG's who've done it, it takes a heck of a lot of inner strength to psychologically break free from your 'tribe', your flesh-and-blood family, and life-long indoctrination and programming, and strike out alone with no close emotional support system. It represents a huge leap in consciousness (whether it outwardly 'looks' that way or not). As such, it is you that are the true 'adults', while your parents who are still influenced by, or are still directly under TF's programming of denial, are in the psycholgical sense quite literally 'retarded children' suffering from a form of mental illness. It is known as Dissociative Disorder, or Dissociative Identity Disorder (there's plenty about it on the Net). I have a lot more to explore and share on this subject, but it will have to wait till I can find enough free time to do the subeject justice. Please hang in there. You guys are my heroes! (reply to this comment)

From Lance Wednesday, November 02, 2005, 12:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Carrissa, this is your cousin Lance. Have Timna contact me via my profile if she ever wants to talk about anything. (reply to this comment)

From Crissy72790 Wednesday, November 02, 2005, 13:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Lance, how are you? Doing well I hope. I haven't spoken to Timna recently, but she, Shana, and I talked about the issue with my mom for hours the last time she came to visit. She's been going through some really rough things lately, but she's hangging in there...as always. Anyways, I'll let her know that she can contact you here if she wants to talk. :)(reply to this comment)

from grateful Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 17:51 (Agree/Disagree?) My parents were in denial for a long time and it was pretty painful for me and my brothers. Thankfully they eventually woke up and apologized all up and down for everything. I've had to accept that they were prisoners just like us, prisoners of the mind. It doesn't make everything ok but we have managed to stay pretty close. (reply to this comment)

from mia1 Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 14:24 (Agree/Disagree?) what about parents who have left the family? My parents were tsed for about 10 years before they left. They still don't want to admit that they damaged any of their children when their decisions obviously hurt us. How do you deal with that? (reply to this comment)

From AndyH Wednesday, November 02, 2005, 18:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Tell them very calmly, if they accept their portion of the responsibility and apologize, then you can all enjoy a wonderful future together, but if they cannot then you will be forced to say very nasty things to them and then never speak to them again. Every day without apology is another day of abuse. Every lie told about the past keeps it in the present. I will not ever humor anyone for the sake of protecting their comfortable lies. I haven't the strength.(reply to this comment)

from conan Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 13:35 (Agree/Disagree?) My parents are both still in TF and both in intense denial about any wrong doing. The fact of the matter is, that when I was between the ages of 5 and 11, I barely saw either of my parents but was of course, under constant Family calibre abuse. I talk to my parents very infrequently for the simple reason that, we don't see eye to eye or agree on almost everything. We're at the point where we can be cordial and all without any real discussion about what's going on. On my end anyways. When I do talk to them, they go on about the 'work' they're doing and yada yada yada and I just flat out don't care. They know so but continue to attempt to convey their 'miracles' etc. with me whenever the opportunity arises. I actually spoke to my mom last week on the phone and when I made some remark (attempting to be funny, but still dead-serious) about the abuses I survived as a kid, and she was aghast that I could "believe such malicious propaganda" and that I should know better than to talk that way to her. When I told her that I really didn't have any propaganda to believe, but that I was recounting experiences that, while not necessarily propagated by her, were allowed to continue due to the neglect of my parents' intervention of any kind. Needless to say, the rest of our conversation was strained until she asked that we change the subject and not discuss it. I've come to accept the fact that my parents and I will, more likely than not, never agree on topics pertaining to beliefs or past issues. I'm cool with that. However, I have five younger siblings at 'home' with my parents and I know that when I do speak to them, everything I say is undermined. My 19 year old brother actually told me that he believed I was living in The Matrix and that he was 'free' and hoped to free me too one day. I had a good laugh, but the reality is that brain-washing in TF today is as strong as ever, if not stronger due to their claims of 'persecution by detractors'. All that to say, I don't really know how to get through to one's parents, in or out of TF. I don't necessarily like my relationship with them but accept it for what it is. (reply to this comment)

from I agree Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 09:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Confronting one's parents is an extremely difficult thing to do. I have heard about others who have come out of TF and who have managed to do it and have had some level of success with it. Both my parents left a (different cult group) a few years ago after many years involvement (I left years before that). I have managed to talk to my mother about the past a little. But I have not managed to talk to my father, who stares at the ceiling when a topic comes up that he is in denial about. Consequently my relationship with my father is extremely shallow. I think that unless we are able to in some way talk to our parents about the past and have some level of acknowledgment from them, then it is extremely difficult to have much of a relationship, barring a very superficial one with them. A superficial relationship means both the parents and adult children miss out. One thing it is worth noting is that over time at least with my mother a greater acknowledgment has come. It has taken a long time for me to get to the point that I would like to talk to my father about issues of the past not just because I am angry with him, but actually now because I recognise that if I don't I never will and I will probably regret it if I don't. I would also like to do it before he is too old and his health starts going down hill. As my father gets older I fear I am running out of time to do this. I have thought about writing a letter to him, that way he can't just stare at the ceiling. Perhaps that would be more effective and also an easier way to do what I know will be an exceptionally difficult thing to do. (reply to this comment)

from setherial Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:46 (Agree/Disagree?) I lived in fear of my step father due to his abuses and in heartache that my own mother wouldnt protect me or listen to me when I was truly scared or felt wronged. The knowledge that my parents wouldn't protect me began from a very young age. Probably 4-5 years old. I knew that their "work" was more important and that I had to fit into a group and become like everyone else to be accepted. By the time I left I had no love for these people. A parent has responsibilies! Regardless of the "group" or belief they are obligated to do the best that they can for their child. They abandoned their obligations and blamed their failures on being "young in the lord" and accepted the leaders excuses, such as people being hurt because The Family was still learning how to apply the "new wine". Every parent in the family is guilty because at the VERY LEAST they have read the perverse literature and doctrines instructing (in detail) how to abuse minors and other people. And again...best case scenerio they did NOTHING. How can you see evil, hear evil, and even do evil to children and still consider yourself someone worth anything? I wouldn't pay a nickel to save my parents life. (reply to this comment)

From afflick Tuesday, November 01, 2005, 05:18 (Agree/Disagree?) This is the issue I am grapple with at present. I want to confront my mother with "proof" copies of Mo Letters, GNs, that she sat me on her lap and read to me as a child. I don't think it will do any good as far as a revelation of bad motherhood for her, but I am prepared to walk away from her for good. Before that time, I am thinking about talking to my father and my sisters (all positive forces in my life) about my decision so that they can understand why I am willing to divorce myself from my mother. I am a bit concerned that they will think I am being overdramatic or that at thirty, I should have made the break from her earlier or not at all. I know that she won't accept any blame for her past decisions as a mother as she is nearing sixty years and hasn't taken responsibility for herself ever in her life. I am coming to the conclusion that I am doing this for me, to let go of some of the ANGER I have concerning her actions and my grandparents non-action when there were children in peril. But I am choosing to do this after I am married next summer and have my husband as my family. I don't think I would be strong enough to do this on my own if I were single. My fiance doesn't know my plans but I am sure he will be supportive. I haven't worked out exactly how or when I will confront my mother but I think that this confrontation, as painful as I know it will be, is the only thing that will give me closure and allow me to walk away from my past, (reply to this comment)

From afflick Tuesday, November 01, 2005, 05:18 (Agree/Disagree?) **grappling**(reply to this comment)

From mia1 Thursday, November 03, 2005, 03:23 (Agree/Disagree?) why the thumbs down??? I've always wondered how to spell that goddamned word....geeze some people...(reply to this comment)