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Getting Through : Dealing
Moving on...Really! | from Joel - Tuesday, May 10, 2005
accessed 2482 times Moving on...Really!!! Let's start with who I am. I am an ex-family member who left very early, back in 1991, when it was still a big thing to leave the Family. It was pre-charter days and before the death of Grandpa. It has taken me a long time to adjust living outside the cult where you make all of your own decisions and you have only yourself to blame.
Separating what are my own mistakes and what is left over bad habits from the family is a confusing process. But rest assured, its never 100% of one, and 0% of the other. To really figure it all out you must be introspective, patient and listen to people who are your friends.
Here area coupe of bad habits & attitudes I have that I contribute to the Family.
Pre-judging everyone (They're systemites!!) There are no systemites, only real people like you and me. Some of them are good and some are bad, and some are in the middle. It's all about getting to know people. Contrary to Family doctrine, they are not robotic, they do not line up in a hundred deep with matching suits and brief cases to get into a building that's billowing out smoke from giant stacks on the roof. They are not all sad. They are not all lost.
Thinking I owe strangers something (Love for the Lost)
Thinking work is bad, boring, a waste of time, un-fulfilling. Well, it can be all of those things, depending on what you're doing, but so was the Family for the last five years I was in it!
An over-emphasis on sex. (I think I have a natural tendency to emphasize this part of my life, but the Family only made that all worse with its horny adults having sex where kids could see or hear, cartoon pornography, and encouragement for kids to have sex when they were too young to understand what it was for.)
A mistrust of religion. Perhaps the worst one for me was how the Family uses religion to control people. It uses Jesus, the manifestation of God in the flesh, and claims to know what Jesus will is for our lives. Don't ever let anyone tell you that they know Gods will for you. Only you can know that by communing with God personally. I am a deeply religious person, and I love God. But I almost stopped believing in God for a while because I associated God with the Family, and those were the worst months of my life.
Intolerance towards other ways of doing things I resist a lot of instruction in my life because in the Family I was fed a lot of half-truths and lies that only weakened and confused me. Some people in you life will care about you and offer good advice. You just need the discernment to see who they are.
Guilt about not serving God how the Family said I should. There are many ways to serve God, and God call us all in a different way. Those ways can include a job and family, or they may require other types of commitment, like being a monk and serving in a mission in Africa. Again, you cannot let someone else tell you what Gods will is for you life. You must seek it diligently and sincerely on your own. Forget what The Family says about their way and their interpretation of the scripture. What's important is that you talk to God, and he will show you. (You might hear a little voice saying something about forsaking all, etc. That's not God, that's something that was repeated to you methodically thousands of times in the Family by people with false conviction, & its echoing in your head like a scream in a canyon.)
To be fair, I will add that I have plenty of sins of my own, like anyone, and I acknowledge them openly. I am proud, selfish, stubborn, and withdraw easily when things don't go my way.
You cannot blame The Family for everything.
When you do figure it out, you still must move on . You must open yourself to those around you; it's the only way to heal. They are real people and some of these systemites are very nice, trustworthy, and caring. No one out here will order you to do anything, like in the Family. Even your boss does not have absolute power over you. You can always quit.
What did the Family offer? There were some things that I can remember that were really nice and great, but still it was not enough to make me stay.
First, I was a male. I think females had it harder (no pun intended) than we did, because of the attitudes towards sex and women. I don't think girls got a lot of respect, except what was gained through sex or leadership positions.
Well, here are a few things we can be thankful for from being in the Family. I know it does not equal the negative , but here goes anyway:
Travel We got to see the world, and that was a mind-expanding experience.
Fellowship Some of you may disagree, but it was cool to know so many people and live communally. My experience was good a lot of the time.
Unity Everyone was united in belief. Even thought it was a lie, while I believed it, it was a very beautiful vision the heavenly city, sex in heaven, space city. Unity is power, and every human being craves this unity of belief. There is nothing quite like it. Coming out of that belief was the hardest thing I have ever done, but I'm glad I did it.
Well, there you have it. Not too much good, but something. There were some sincere people, some sweet people too, super sweet. Haha
I sincerely hope that all of you who have left can find a life that makes you happy and that you can have a relationship with God, and separate God from The Family. This might bring up the question of why God would allow his name to be used for such a bad purpose. Well, I guess the answer is free will. We all have it and there's no doubt that David Berg was a brilliant man, a futurist (as opposed to a prophet) and that God gave him his brilliance.
I think the Family was a sincere organization in its beginning years and was a reaction to The Vietnam War and part of the Peace Movement. But the power and reputation he gained through the family corrupted Berg and he misused his gifts and used them to control other people. No doubt he fooled himself into thinking he was doing the right thing, and that the Family was the only true religion, Gods elite, etc, which it was not! But in the end, if the stories and testimony are right, he was a loathsome, old perv who couldn't put the bottle down! His abilities far surpassed his character.
There are still sincere people in the Family that are doing Gods work & try to keep away from the weird stuff. I think my two brothers are good examples, Sunny & Ezra & Steven. To you I say wazzuuuupp???
It seems the Family differs from home to home, country to country, so I will not speak against any one particular person (except The Founder, his doctrine, & his Organization, which must be addressed in order to reveal my own position on the matter), & I hold no grudges.
Keep up the good work. If you truly are sincere in doing Gods work, you know it in your heart, & God Bless You. But how can I have respect for an organization that served to confuse, control, & hurt tens of thousands of people?
It really is another world out here, & I for one, am happy to live in it!!! |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Rain Child
Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 06:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
YOU just put down all my thoughts which I hadn't formulated yet! The things you don't like about the Family as well as your fonder memories are exactly the way I feel!
(reply to this comment)
| from BeholdBeholdBeholdHowGoodHow
Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 08:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
EXTRA!! Unity Fixes Available at Alternate Source! Read all About it!!
Excerpt:
"How do you think she'll respond?" I ask.
"She may have the impression that I'm being coerced," he says.
"Does she feel that way about the Jesus Christians, anyway?" I ask.
"She does feel conflicted by our unity."
"That you're a live-in group?"
"That we hold ourselves accountable to each other. We make group decisions. It isn't the kind of personal freedom she feels I should have, I guess."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4386862,00.html
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from conan
Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 16:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
Joel,
I just came across this article and had some immediate thoughts in response. I don’t know (or care) if they’re addressed by others in this thread as I didn’t bother to read the whole thing, just your original article.
First of all, we all left at some point. I don’t really think leaving at any given times gives you more credit than others and find this assumption to be ever so slightly bigoted.
Next, you say in your first paragraph that it has taken you a long time to adjust to living outside the cult and in the same breath refer to the manipulating creep who ruined our (collective) lives as ‘grandpa’. That to me screams that you have not yet adjusted to anything, but that you are hopelessly living out your life under the cloud of your early cult induced brainwashing.
Duh!! There are no systemites. The fact that you use this as one of your early arguments points to how much ground there is to go in your de-programming. I’m not saying this to be insulting, just to let you know that I think you’re still holding on to quite a lot of emotional baggage, and not the good kind either. Your comment about thinking you owe people anything should probably be under this same category. As we all know, TFI (The Family International) is a cult based on convincing people of the façade of love and using that to manipulate the victim to their advantage.
I think the world is sub-consciously sex-oriented. This should not be surprising to you or any other ex-cultie. Sex has always sensationalized and probably always will. Come on man! All men think about sex every, what is it, 7 seconds? That’s a statistic that doesn’t come from a cult. The difference in your situation is that you associate your inborn instinct to fuck every hot piece of ass that walks by you to your up-bringing in a sex oriented environment. Let it go.
Mistrust of religion may be more common among ex-cult members (regardless of the particular cult) all over the world. It is not, however, limited to us. As a matter of fact, agnosticism is one of the fastest growing ‘movements’ in America today (although not evidenced by the recent presidential election). And we know that no one can possibly know ‘God’s’ will for you as no one has spoken to ‘God’ if there is in fact one at all.
Rebellion towards authority is also nothing new. Ever hear of the hippy movement that our notorious cult sprang from?
As far as guilt regarding your service to ‘God’, that’s between you and your own conscience as most ex Family members don’t feel guilt at all in that department unless (and I’m generalizing here) they’re first generation (or, as per Nancy I’ll call them “real”) members.
Sins? What, are we in religious class here? Sins? Peccadilloes we all have, so let’s not categorize pride, selfishness, stubbornness, or being withdrawn into the whole ‘sins’ thing. Who doesn’t have those attributes? Well pride, stubbornness and selfishness anyways.
I’m truly happy that you had some things to “be thankful for” (looks like we’ll have to work on eliminating as much of that Family lingo of yours as possible) but the vast majority of kids in TFI that I knew as a child myself growing up were miserable. I happen to think that travel, while cool in itself, was in fact a hindrance. But that’s another topic which I’ll leave alone for now. Fellowship…what you call fellowship, I hated it. I love having my own room without being the fifth of seven ‘rainbow’ beds and having one suitcase with all your belongings in the world in it which anyone could go through at any time due to the incredible lack of privacy. I know plenty of people, more now than ever before as a matter of fact (that includes ex-members and ‘normal’ people), and I no longer live communally. As far as unity goes, I for one saw more animosity and infighting in Family homes then I’ve seen in any organization, establishment, business, or foundation that I’ve been involved with since my departure from TFI. I’m not saying that infighting or disunity doesn’t exist out here but they know how to hide it better in the real world.
I didn’t find any sweet people in TFI who were being sweet because they were genuinely sweet. Most people would jump to stab you in the back if they thought that it would benefit them in some way or other. But that of course is my take on things.
On the subject of Berg, I think that your opinion of him is rather naïve and misguided. This was first made apparent by your statement: “But in the end, if the stories and testimony are right, he was a loathsome, old perv who couldn't put the bottle down!” Trust me, the stories and ‘testimonies’ (more family lingo) are all true, and we don’t know the half of it. All you had to do to know was hear what Ricky (rest in peace) had to say about him, and you’d see how this man we were taught to revere treated those who were close to him.
You have a very friendly, chummy frame of mind when it comes to your past and the current group. You must be one of the few lucky ones. As for me, I say fuck The Family, fuck Berg, fuck Zerby, fuck WS, fuck the ‘leadership’ and for fuck’s sake, fuck the fucking idiots who continue to be mindless fucks in this fucking fuck-wits plan for fuck knows what!!?!? Oh, and by the way, my parents are still in the group and they are included in the above statement because they continue to manipulate my younger siblings’ minds to the point where they can’t think for themselves (much like most of us couldn’t). I have this to say to you Joel, Move the fuck On!
(reply to this comment)
|  From Joel
Friday, May 13, 2005, 17:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Baxter,
Seems like you’re looking for a fight. Well, before we go at it I should tell you I work out & I know karate!!! Haha
Seriously, there are a lot of assumptions in you comment. You know what they say about assume…but then, a lot of people assumed stuff when they read the article. You should have read the comments. I’m having to write some things all over again. It would have explained a lot.
I am not bragging about leaving early. It’s just what happened.
Footnote: A bigot is someone who is intolerant of other people’s views, or beliefs. The word hardly describes someone who is bragging about something.
I referred to Burgh as Grandpa so others would know who I meant. Also, I still have brothers in that family and they say that, so I guess it comes out that way. I realized from comments that people don’t like this so much on moving on.
I have not, nor will I ever completely get over 20 yrs of indoctrination, and I don’t claim to. Reading the thoughts and opinions of other people on this site is really great for me to hear different point of view about the whole thing.
I wrote those points hoping that someone could use the information. I think they were generally directed at people who had just left the group. Maybe you have adjusted in some areas faster than I have…who’s to say. If you cannot use any of the points, that’s cool. I know some people that really have a problem connecting with others outside the cult and respecting their point of view because we were taught that the family way was the only true and straight path.
Trues, sex is a strong drive and advertising & magazines emphasize it greatly. The first thing I did say (but you chose not to hear) about it was that I have a natural tendency to emphasize sex. The family was a little different. I don’t think too many kidz saw two adult strangers going at it on a regular basis, or were encouraged to have sex when they were ten, or saw pornographic cartoons at the same age…the list goes on. Also, I go hours without thinking about sex sometimes. Depends what I doing. You know how statistics can lie, eh? Do you honestly thing about it every seven seconds? That seems a little nympho to me.
So you’re agnostic?? Are you like that simply because you are trying to make a break with the family and the only way you know how is to go to the opposite extreme and tear out everything in your soul, then start anew?? You will find that only damages things worse. There is no easy way to adjust out here. If I find one I’ll tell you.
By the statement “most ex Family members don’t feel guilt at all” you are presuming to know what all new ex-family member think. So you talked to them all, did you? You asked them all if they felt guilt or not?
Even though your freight-train-through-a-china-shop style is rather unnerving, bitter, and terribly raw, I think you do have some good points. But of all of the dozens of comments, yours seem to be the most bitter and very negative. My aplogies for your family. That really sucks that they’re still in there. My dad is as well, but I live with him & my mother. We but heads for years, and now we don’t talk about it.
Oh, and I’m all about improving myself. That’s why I try to recognize areas of my life where I need improvements. That’s what I meant about sins. And I am a Christian still.
And my positive attitude? I have to say that it’s always been on of my best attributes. It does not mean I suffer less, believe me Conan.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From conan
Saturday, May 14, 2005, 15:38
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Well believe it or not I wasn’t looking for a fight but it looks like you’ve got one after all. Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups as they say, but I assumed very little. I merely gave my opinions and personal observations in response to your original posted article which I took to be your point of view regarding the issues you addressed.
Referring to ‘grandpa’ as Berg would in no way shape or form confuse anyone on this website as to the identity of the perp you are speaking about, and the use of ‘grandpa’ to name him will only bring you grief for doing so, as I’m sure you’ve seen. So in other words, your excuse is (forgive me vixen) lame!
You wrote those points to help people you say? Explain something to me please. You’re out of TF (so you say) but you live with your dad who is still in? Is that right? If so, that would explain much of your backwards, pro-Family thinking as well as your incessant use of Family lingo. For someone who’s been out for so long, and so obviously proud of that particular fact, I think it’s high time (no pun intended) you moved the fuck out from under your dad’s, and coincidentally, the cult’s roof.
Obviously not everyone thinks about sex that often. I would have thought that you would have been aware of that fact despite me having written that that was what a survey said. You seem to be a bit obtuse. Yes, we were exposed to way to much sexual content as children, but what that has to do with you over-emphasizing sex is quite simply beyond me. One doesn’t have much to do with the other (in my opinion…so that we’re clear and you don’t flip out and accuse me of speaking for everyone again).
Do not try and preach to me about why or why not I’m agnostic. I never asked for your advice, and certainly don’t need you trying to give me a life lesson if, in fact that is what you’re doing. Obviously I have my own reasons for being what I am, and if I was looking for help or some way to explain it away, you would be the last person that I would want to approach. If I wanted to ‘make a break’ from TF, why would I chose to be agnostic, but still come on to this website and discuss my issues with my past and why I blame TF for the things in my life that I’m dissatisfied with or that I feel have prevented me from being the best me that I can? That’s just not logical nit wit.
Oh, and I never said that most ex Family members don’t feel guilt. I said that they don’t feel guilty about ‘failing’ god (God) or missing “His highest will” for them or whatever it was that you said you felt guilty about. You seem to be at alone in that department.
Who cares if you’re a Christian? I certainly don’t. You can be whatever you want to be (like you needed me to tell you that) just don’t try and preach to me about why that’s the best and only way and why I should go ahead and follow in your lead. Fuck that! Sins are relative to the person who beholds them, and what you referred to as your sins are only considered to be sins by religious nut jobs (like you apparently). If you want to improve yourself, you’re going to need a shit load of pride, and selfishness to pull that off. You can’t improve yourself and admit that you’ve improved otherwise. Even you should be able to recognize that.
Don’t make apologies for my family. You don’t know me, you don’t know them, and you sure as shit don’t seem to know yourself. Have a nice life! (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From vixen
Friday, May 13, 2005, 05:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
While I agree with a lot of the points you make, conan, I do think that Joel deserves credit for at least being self-aware enough to have identified these lingering psychological patterns. The first step to changing the way you think is to be aware of what needs to be changed. I didn't get the impression that Joel was saying that this is how he still thinks, except maybe on a subconscious level. Granted, I did say in one of my posts that I feel that Joel needs to re-examine his thinking, and I stand by that. But don't we all need to do that from time to time? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Thunder7
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 20:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think "camaraderie" should replace "unity" as one of the things you say you miss.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | from ErikMagnusLehnsher
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Welcome to Movingon.org.
One thing you will learn around here fairly quickly is that anything promotional of religion is pretty much taboo. After so many years of religious indoctrination most of us know enough of the Bible to determine our own degree of faith. My religious activities don't extend beyond my kids praying each evening and blessing their relatives and friends.
Though, to be quite honest, the other day I had some questionable Chinese food and woke up in the middle of the night in a great deal of pain. I found myself praying and at one point busted out with some eloquent foreign tongues that would have made my old teen shepherd flush with pride after all those failed attempts to re-fill me with the Holy Spirit. :D (Actually I think I was repeatedly moaning "Hijo de la chingada...").
This is a fairly contentious board but I would encourage you to roll with punches, hang around, read articles and freely participate (as long as you don't proselytize). I've been called things far, far worse than an "apologist" so don't take things too personally. of course, I only speak for myself.
I think I understand what you mean by "Unity" and I would agree that there is an appeal to being part of something exclusive and special and TF was effective at working this angle. Like yourself, I eventually realized that my existence in TF was boring, unfulfilling and a waste of my youth. I disagree with some of the characterizations made in your article but Anovagrrl addressed them.
Glad to see you got out when you did and that you're doing well.
(reply to this comment)
| From Joel
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 06:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Of all of the people I have responded to, you are the most diplomatic. A lot of the other people here are a little rougher around the edges, not that I mind. I admire their honesty. Thanks for easing me into the whole thing with your introduction. Better luck next time with the Chinese food. Yep, that was not tongues but rather, it was a nasty little spanish expression one might use just after smashing one's thumb with a hammer. Haw!!(reply to this comment) |
| | from Jeffrey Dahmer Jr.
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:50
 (Agree/Disagree?)
You people are a bunch of whiny pussies. You don't have any rights, you never had any. Right to education, right to free health care, right to a dignified life, blah blah.
How easily is man enchanted by the sugar-sweet words of resentment. You want equality? You want democracy? Let's translate, you want everyone just like you. You whine about abuse, because you hope to earn sympathy and perhaps get a few freebees off the man. Think about how useless revenge is, will it fix your warped minds? Will it heal any wounds? You tell yourself that, but may you pray you never have a full revenge or you would be left with the horrible emptiness of satisfied revenge. That's when suicide will become a real option.
Come on, moan away. It won't help anything and will only weaken you. the only way out I see is to choose madness, bathe in your difference and say fuck you to the to the rest,TF and normies alike.
Go on rationalize and legitimize your right to suffering and vengeance. You'll only grow weaker, and it will be your own doing this time.
Human rights and perverted values of compassion are going against the growth of man, man has always grown stronger in adversity, but here we are doing our best to promote weakness and conformity. An ever-growing swarm of weak parasites wasting the earth away while they chant, "But it is my right". What rights? Given by divine intervention? Or maybe is was just weak resentful people like youselves who created those very "rights".
The Weakness Revolution, Yay.
Go out and climb trees.
Chase imaginary ice cream trucks.
Make extravagant but functional air castles.
Act and think like a dog for a day.
Go play hide-and-seek barefoot in a shopping mall.
Whatever happens, Santa Claus does exist.
Look out your window right now, pick the highest mountain in view and start walking, don't stop till you're at the top.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Baxter
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 03:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
I've probably said something like this before, but some of what 'Dahmer' has just said has a ring of truth to it. I personally do not believe in the concept of inalienable rights, and I certainly didn't believe in them when I was in the family. What difference did someone's assertion of inalienable rights mean to me? The notion was meaningless because it had no significance in my mind.
I'm not gonna go off into the whole Nietzchean debate. Locke and Hobbes and all the others can stay out of this one right now. All I'm saying is that we do make enormous assumptions based on these same notions, and as far as I am concerned, it's bollocks! Social Justice is, to my mind, a myth and nothing more.
But that's as far as I will agree with the above. Whoever said revenge is hollow and bitter has never experienced the whole wonder of true and satisfying revenge. If we live in a world where rules and notions of rights are hollow and arbitrary, then what else have we to do, in the absence of applicable justice, then to seek revenge? And so we will seek revenge, we will seek it in any form we can. And if we are honest about it, we will not feel justified in it's pursuit, because we will not need to. The pursuit itself will be satisfying enough. Forget rights for two seconds. Yes, parents betray their children all the time, and yes people exploit other people all the time. But what should stop the exploited and the betrayed from wreaking revenge on the perpetrators of their injustice? Or should we all just bend over and let the world walk up our arse?
On one hand, 'Dahmer', you seem to apply a certain logic and then you renege on it. Maybe you should go back to reading Neitzche (obviously influenced your diatribe!) (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From !i O.D.D.M.A.N i!
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 00:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
I see your angle. For instance, the children born in Cambodia may not have many things we take for granted. Different cultures have different ideas of what a childs rights are.
But then, do you suggest that those men murdered by Jeffrey Dahmer, did not have a right to live? Did Dahmer have the right to murder them?
Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, H H. Holmes, Ed Gein, David Berkowitz, Zhou Wen, Williams Burke and Hare, Bernd Bopp, Kate Bender, Javed Iqbal, Luis Gavarito, Richard Speck, Issei Sagawa, George Banks, Martin Bryant, Yang Xinhai, Thomas Hamilton, John Makin, Fritz Haarman, Jesse Pomeroy, Crump and Baker, John Raymond Travers, John Eric Armstrong, Lawrence Bittaker, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgway, Edmund Kemper, Ivan Milat, Gerard Schaefer, Moses Sithole, Lucian Staniak, Dennis Nilsen, John Wayne Gacy, Dennis Rader,
You suppose their victims deserved to be abducted, tortured, raped, mutilated, murdered, eaten, and discarded as waste? Most of them for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Would you suppose the families and authorities were being weak by not accepting their circumstances? People with abusive tendencies have a mind impossible for the common person to comprehend. And they cannot be cured. The issue is not how bad the abuse was. The issue is that there was abuse. The issue is that the perpetrators of the abuse have not fully recanted their actions. The issue is that none of the abusers have suffered for their actions. The issue is that due to protective measures by the COG, these persons with abusive tendencies, remain at large, putting further persons at risk. At the core of the issue is that the leaders of the Children of God/The Family International, believe that they did not do wrong. The only reason the practices have been suspended is due to mounting pressure. If the law did not pressure them otherwise, they would be raping their children to this day. Due to the "persecution" caused by "bitter apostates" many young children's lives have been improved. Many of our younger siblings did not go through the intense abuse of earlier days. They can in all honesty, post "their conclusion" that there was no abuse.
The next step is to have the abusive leaders removed from their seat of power. To have the abusers named, and brought to justice. To have the group admit to it's current members that the abuse "older brother" talked about was true, and amend the gap they built between the younger generation, and the "first" second generation. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Mik_e
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 09:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Two words to answer that post:
moral relativism and social darwinism.
ON a larger scale, the weak will be hurt by the strong, till there are only the "strong" left, and/or till the weak get stronger(more intelligent, adaptable, etc) and a balance of power will be reached. It's quality, not quantity, that counts.
We could do with a lot less whining idiots on this planet.(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Friday, May 13, 2005, 12:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry, but your theories are not scientifically sound. You're "survival of the fittest" approach completely misses the point of what it actually means to be "fit". The fittest individual is not the strongest physiolocially speaking, just the individual that manages to pass more of its genes along in the form of viable offspring than another.
Many of the typically "strong" species such as the large predators are not as biologically fit as their prey and tend to go extinct easier and faster. That is a result of many complex interactions and behaviors based on rules of energy flow between systems which I will not get into here. My point is that species develop strategies that benefit them in the long run, not strategies that automatically kill off all the weak individuals, despite what you may have heard from some Discovery Channel documentary.
Some species, such as the herd species like zebra, may be unable to compete against say, a lion, on an individual level but overall, as far as numbers and viable offspring, a zebra can outcompete a lion anyday. They do this by herding together and this affords protection to both the stronger and weaker individuals. The fittest zebra without the company of other weaker individuals around it will have no chance of survival. This easily refutes your "quality vs. quantity" theory.
Not to turn this site into National Geographic, but I'm just trying to make the point that your statement that eventually only strong individuals will be left is misguided. Humans are herd animals in that we are social and need to be around other humans. This is esp. true in recent civilizaiton. The strong, rich, and successful did not get that way by themselves. Without commenting on the morality of such a situtation, typically these people got where they are by manipulating the work of others to their own advantage. What CEO could become a multi-billionare without weaker individuals working their asses off to make him that way? None, because in this society it takes the weak to make the strong strong. Eliminate all the weak and there will be no strong, particularly not as we view strength, power, and success in today's society. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mik_e
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 11:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who ever talked about a political party, or a form of government?
It's not a matter of actively killing what has been decided is weak, it's a matter of going with the flow. Stop wasting milions on health care, forget about welfare, stop punishing criminals or citizens who take justice into their own hands. It's about letting go, not creating a rigid hierarchy of power such as the nazis did in Germany.
Why does everything that exalts human strength(not just physical) have to do with Nazism? Pleeeze......(reply to this comment) |
| | From ack
Friday, May 13, 2005, 09:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Political parties like the NAZI's started as one persons idea that poisoned millions, Berg and TFI is another example of people "just going with the flow".
Do you realize how terrible health care coverage is in this country? There are thousands of children, millions worldwide, who aren't covered by any health care program while we drop billions on a pointless and missguided war. I noticed you find it acceptable in your anarchist view to cut funding for welfare and health care, while in the meantime promoting vigilanteism and criminality. But what? No cancellation of war?
The views (neglect of the weak, promotion of the ideal and the strongest specimens, coupled with anti-institutional paranoia) are NAZI/anarchist. Obvioulsy the're not the ideal combination of political views, and I doubt the marriage will last.
You're not the first person to think that way, nor will you be the last. You see, your way of thinking is not original, just delusional and dangerous. Good luck with it!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mik_e
Friday, May 13, 2005, 12:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I never promoted my way of thinking as more original then the another's.
You're not seeing the bigger picture here, Both Nazism and TF have a similar flaw, they are not based on much rationale, intead they focus on carismatic leadership.
What's wrong with war? What's worong with less people on this overcrowded planet?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From weegirlie
Friday, May 13, 2005, 04:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
"never murdered anybody"?
Well I for one hold Berg (I refuse to call a sadistic old pervert "Grandpa") among others responsible for the murder of Smith and Ricky's death. Not to mention all the suicides that were as a result of the abuse that he taught and promoted.
"May have hurt some people feelings"?
Fucking hell! That's the understatement of the century. He stole a whole generation of children's childhoods and encouraged their abuse and exploitation!! How anyone can make such pathetically apologetic statement is beyond me!
And as I imagine you are still in TF making a ludicrous statement like that, might I point out that you culties have supposedly denounced Berg! Please try to at least keep up an appearance that your lies are actually true.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From moon beam
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 11:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
"He may have hurt people's feelings" ???
That was the very least he did and was responsible for. He loved striping people down, or have you forgot those Mo letters?
He was not my "Granpa" , hell I'm sure glad that he wasn't. He did more than hurt his own Grandaughter's "feelings" also. Try beating, sexually abusing and degrading her in the most harsh ruthless way, and (this is the most important part) he "meant too".
He sure had plenty of intent. He elieved the end would justify the means.
Maybe our parents wouldn't have done the many things he told them to do if they weren't under the same belief that Jesus would return in 93, making them live in constant survival(fear, stress, ) mode and toughening us up for the job we were to do in the endtime.
They are still a threat to their members as long as they hold this dangerous christian/biblical promise to be true. IMO, half of the abuses would not have occured without the carrot on a string, which religions have hung infront of people since the middle ages.
This is also a popular bible belt trait in the US. I was watching Penn and Teller of all people last night and couldn't stop laughing at this bunch of misguided conservative psycos that roam and hide in the forrest with all their guns, no homes and waiting for the time of the end. They spoke how they are ready to fight, do they not realise that their man, conservative Bush is in power? Too crazy cause if this were ever to occur(I'm not holding my breath) those guns would be usless.
It does say in the bible that you will "not be told the hr or day the lord will return" berg went against that. (reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 05:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh my sweet Lord, here we go again!!!
First of all, it's Berg, NOT freakin' Grandpa! He was not my grandfather, and considering he sexually abused his own granddaughter, the use of that name on this site is offensive to the extreme!
Secondly, 'He may have hurt some people's feelings'? What fucking planet are you from??? You sound suspiciously like an FGA... Tell me, are you one of those who voluntarily joined? If so, you can take your apologist attitudes somewhere else!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from exister
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:00
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I too left in 1991, so you get no extra cred from me on that one.
That fact that you use the term "Grandpa" to refer to Berg is disturbing, and trying to use his demagoguery to obfuscate the fact that he was a drunken pedophile makes you sound like an apologist. Why don't you just own up to the fact that you are still in love with the Family and wish you could still devote yourself to the teachings of a dead 'Mo (prison slang for molester).
Unity!?! The Nazis were pretty fucking united too, weren't they? Your affinity for the company of others, regardless of how deluded and creepy they are leads me to believe that you are just a weakling who has not found some higher truth, but rather some dark psychological hole in which to hide from his gnawing existential dilemma.
As for all of your witnessing and religious drivel in this post, isn't that a bit like trying to sell Communism to someone who just got out of the Gulag? Since you brought it to my door (this site) I'll tell you what I tell other proselytizers: "Kindly fuck off and die you coward!"
Cheers!
(reply to this comment)
| From Joel
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 04:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
Exister,
I like your style. You don't pull any punches. I think some of what you said was interesting, especially the "gnawing existencial dillema" line. Haw!! There is abit of a duality going on there sometimes.
We'll have to talk more at a later date. Right now it's 4:00 in the morning and I still got work to do before hitting the sack.
GBAKYAMYAB!! (Just joking)
Cheers,
Joel
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from frmrjoyish
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am dumbfounded at some of the things you've said here. Whether one person or 20,000 people believe a ridiculous fantasy like heaven is in the moon, it still remains a ridiculous fantasy. The only difference is that now there are 20,000 stupid people instead of one. It's this same "unity of belief" that kept people in such a dangerous cult in the first place. The group-think so prevalent in TF is one of it's most dangerous characteristics, certainly not a positive.
Not only is your article redundant (word of the week around here it seems) in stating the obvious, you contradict yourself numerous times. If the damage caused by TF far outweighs any good it did, then why should we be thankful for being forced to endure it during our childhoods? You say that there are sincere and good people who just want to do god's work, yet these sincere, good people support and contribute to an organization responsible for unspeakable crimes against its own children, the numerous societies they have infested, as well as the ignorant people they duped into supporting them. How does being "sincere and good" absolve them of supporting and participating in a criminal organization? It doesn't and I am under no obligation to be fair and objective when it comes to those criminals. I am also under no obligation to look back with rose tinted glasses on a cult that, for all intents and purposes, could've easily destroyed my life had I not fought so hard to avoid that.
The bottom line is that TF is a dangerous and manipulative cult that needs to be stopped. Any "good" it has done is trivial compared to the unimaginable harm they have done. Putting a positive spin on a cult who has committed such heinous crimes as TF has is not only unnecessary but irresponsible. For you to even suggest it speaks volumes about your character and explains why you would even join a cult in the first place.
(reply to this comment)
| From Rain Child
Thursday, July 21, 2005, 06:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, you know what, even when I was seven years old and my Dad read me Heavens Girl, I knew it was weird that she was enjoying being raped by ten men at once- and later having sex with two brothers before moving on to their uncle. and when Heavens Children came out, I knew the idea of Heaven being in the moon was absolutely ridiculous- but this is the first time I've ever had the audacity to say so! Thanks for giving me this.(reply to this comment) |
| | from anovagrrl
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 07:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
I like many things you have said in this article, but I suggest doing further research on Berg before making up your mind about who he was and how he shaped your life.
Berg didn't fail as an exemplar of Christian discipleship because he was corrupted by the power and reputation he gained through TF. Berg was a man of weak and disturbed character long before TF came into existence, as evidenced by the difficulty he had separating from his mother and his incesttuous fantasies about her, how he malingered his way into a disability discharge from the army during WWII despite the fact he had conscientious objector status, how he disrespected and dishonored his wife's family by eloping, how he was fired from the ministry for sexual improprieties, the way he incested his daughters and beat his sons into submission, the way he took up with Karen Zerby and blamed his wife for his infidelity because she failed to fully support his special calling as God's anointed.
The way Berg walked through this life was not ever what I would call "Christ-like." He could talk the talk, but he died exactly the way he lived his entire life: an amoral, narcissistic charlatan.
Have you ever wondered whether this "brilliant" charlatan would have made it as far as he did if he had not found Karen Zerby, his svengali? She totally accepted all his claims of divine revelation and never questioned a single, psychotic word of his drunken rants. Moreover, she promoted and participated in Berg's abuse of his biological family members. She maintained control over Berg & the empire they built together through sexual manipulation and iron-willed determination to eliminate any and all competitors. Zerby even sacrificed her own children (and hundreds of other people's children) to Berg's perverse appetites to assure her position as queen. Many charlatans rise to power through the sheer energy of slavish devotion from the not-so-brilliant but ambitious and unscrupulous.
Finally, I suggest checking out whether one of your basic assumptions about human nature is valid (true). I do not know of any social science research that supports the claim that "every human being craves unity of belief." It may be accurate to say "many" human beings crave unity of belief, particularly those who have a strongly religious nature. However, there are many other people in this world who have little inclination toward religious preoccupation. These people would probably tell you they feel a distinct distaste and loathing for the power of unity of belief.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 08:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
In that phrase "every human being craves unity of belief," I think Joel's choice of the term "crave" is interesting. In my own experience, I had been exposed to the illusion of unity of belief as well as to the idea that the "unity" was a necessary thing, and much like a crack baby, experienced a certain discomfort from the lack of it in my early days out. Beyond "unity" of belief, I think I craved belonging of some kind, having left behind everything and everyone I knew and being in an unknown world with unknown people.
I now see the craving as something that was induced in me like an addiction by chronic immersion in that atmosphere. I have moved so far beyond that (for the most part) that one of the things I find thrilling about my life in a cosmopolitan city is the diversity. There are so many different kinds of beauty!
It is also my opinion now that the "unity" was a Wizard of Oz illusion. In fact, leadership was projecting that while manipulating and controlling and often ruining your life. The others around bought in to the "unity" to varying degrees, those who most bought what was sold losing out in subtle ways to those who only sold. (reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 07:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
I like what you said there, anovagrrl.
To be honest, the first time I read the above article I missed the statement that later pissed me off so much, and I was actually going to write a comment saying that I thought the article was at least one of the better of the 'moving on' articles that pop up from time to time. I think the 'witnessing' attempt coupled with that line about Berg's God-given 'brilliance' was just a trigger for me.
Joel, I'm glad you have moved on and found peace in your faith. (reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 10:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I hasten to add that I originally thought the article was rather good in comparison to others in the same vein only because of the fact that there was minimal preaching. I thought that Joel did make an effort to talk only about his own opinions rather than lecturing us on what we should think. I'm NOT saying that I agree with his views on the benefits of our background. I fully stand by my opinion that his view of Berg as a brilliant individual is incorrect, and I continue to feel that Joel should re-examine his thinking.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Helpful Heloise
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 03:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think you meant "attribute" rather than "contribute" when you wrote "Here area coupe of bad habits & attitudes I have that I contribute to the Family." You also need a space between e and a in the second word of that sentence and to add an l before the e in the third word. And stop using the & sign and just spell out the word. You are not writing a friggin Mo Letter that needs to fit on as few sheets of toilet-paper thin paper as possible.
While you are making a list of the attitudes and beliefs that you attribute to your upbringing in the Family, you might as well add the absurd notion you have that Berg was "a brilliant
man and "that God gave him his brilliance." Berg was many things (abusive, ugly, evil, stupid, perverted, deceptive and disgusting are some of the adjectives that come to mind) but brilliant is definitely not one of them.
(reply to this comment)
| From Joel
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 04:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
A lot of people seem to have a problem admitting that Berg was a smart guy. By smart I do not mean moral, I do not mean good, or in any way indicate he was right. A lot of evil people are smart too, you know. In fact, the more brilliant a person is - coupled with a lack of morals - the worse they can be. That's what made the whole thing so dangerous; the fact that this man actually had control of so many people. That's all I meant by "brilliant"
Did I also mention the part about him being a perv & an alcoholic? I'm pretty sure I added that. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from vixen
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 02:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
WTF????
'There is no question that God gave him his brilliance'???
I cannot believe the audacity you show in saying 'I sincerely hope that...you can have a relationship with God, and separate God from The Family', and in the same breath utter the deeply insulting statement I quoted above. How dare you??? I can tell you one thing, if you believe that your God would anoint a man like Berg to perpetuate the systematic abuse of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent children, then you can keep your abusive, sadistic God - I want no part of him! Jesus fucking Christ I still can't believe you'd say something so ridiculous!
I guess you can take the man out of the cult but you can't always take the cult out of the man. It never ceases to amaze me when people who have been out ten-plus years show up here still spouting family apologist crap like that. It demonstrates so clearly that breaking the psychological ties and building new thought processes is something that some people will never succeed in doing.
(reply to this comment)
| From Joel
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 04:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think I have pretty much admitted to myself that it's impossible to tear 20 years of doctine out of my brain. Those were my first 20 years of life, and they cannot simply be erased.
I think I made it pretty clear where I stand. I mean, I left didn't I? Is that not the most powerful statement I could have made to show that I was not in agreement with the cult?
And finally, I will address this question of "Burg's Brilliance" that seems to have rubbed you all the wrong way. I think that God gave everyone what they have, and then people do with it what they will. I am not saying that he was anointed by God, simply that he was born intelligent. I am left with the question of why a loving God would allow us all to go through what we did, but I am satisfied with the answer that I don't have to know everything. I just let some things go.
Does this clear things up or am I due for another round of scalding commentary? (Not that I mind. If it's how you feel then say it. After a dozen years in the cult Lord knows you deserve your free speech. )
(reply to this comment) |
| | From SeanSwede
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 05:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
The best personal therapy that I got into which helped me totally pull out of the whole Family thing was that I got into Astronomy watching the Discovery and nature channels and reading science magazines, books etc. It really made the bible, Jesus and The Family cog so insignificant and plain stupid and unintelligant.
Jesus of Nazareth was just one of those many philosiphers before and after him. I still can`t get what the big deal is about him. Just give your self a chance and try reading what other books have to say for instance you could read about buddism, islam, judaism and another good one is shamanism and Wicca.
The thing that you will just have to go through is the after shock and following depression periods and confusion and insecurity about your new found discoveries about what life and the universe really is. I know I wanted so much to just dump all my background "childhood and teen training" in the garbage and start a clean slate and rebuild my mental state about morals ethics beliefs etc. One thing that I thought almost every day about was death. Death was always on my mind. I was worried about it alot and was trying to get over the REAL fact that if their is nothing after our death that I would have to try to get over it somehow and try to go on living and do the best that I could do with my life and just HOPE for the best.
You will start to realise that The Family is not the only group which are "special" or different. You will notice alot of basic similarities in all of those religions and beliefs. It really helped me alot. I just ended up just about becoming an athiest. It really open`d my mind to see what religion is all about.
The Famiy is NOT making a damn difference here in the world. Wanna know why? Cause most and I really mean MOST people have never heard of them.
If The Family were to get into science and astrology seriously they will eventually change and realise that everything is far more different than they have ever imagined. THEN their will be a great "falling away".
The reason why The Family members refuse to even try to consider any new things outside of their dusty outdated doctrines is cause they are so damn proud. Proud and most of all afraid to go there. They will really get into deep depression after realising all the time that they wasted living and believing all of that stuff.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from xhrisl
Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Bergs brilliance lies within the same realm of that attributed to Hitler, Stalin and Mao---to name only a few. The Rev. Jim Jones and David Koresh were also among those who might otherwise be classified as “the charismatically insane”.
To say “there's no doubt that David Berg was a brilliant man, a futurist (as opposed to a prophet) and that God gave him his brilliance” is such a farce as to expose you for The Family Apologetic that you are.
Furthermore, your classic example of blaming the victim---“You cannot blame The Family for everything. […] No one out here will order you to do anything, like in the Family. Even your boss does not have absolute power over you. You can always quit.”
Such comments bespeak volumes about the experiential differences to be found between ex-FGA’s and ex-SGA’s, who were not affiliated with TF by choice and had no other options, particularly with regard to alternate lifestyle choices. While I’m gladdened to hear of your positive testimony of life in TF, Movingon is meant as a support network for those whose experiences were certainly less than positive, and, who are in need of all the support and affirmation they can get, as well as tips and advise on how to cope with the world at large---a reality which most of us were never prepared for.
If you want to praise TF there are plenty of other places and people who I’m sure would more than welcome your insights and support.
(reply to this comment)
| From Joel
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 04:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, maybe my experience was not as bad as some. I don't know. I do like your definition of Berg (Charismaticaly insane) better than mine. I think it's more accurate.
But you guys don't seem to see the negative stuff I wrote.
I wrote mostly negative comments & my experiences were mostly negative!!!
Are you looking only for the positive to then tear it down? I sincerely was trying to offer positive advice based on what helped me to get through the whole ordeal. But if all I did was think about the negative stuff and blame the family for my problems right now, I would not be gaining any ground or growing. That's what I meant about separating the two: your own problems, and those that came from the family. And these will vary in intensity and description according to where you were, under what sheperds, and for how long, etc. So you see, my advice is only general. It's a kind of take it or leave it deal. I'm not trying to be anyone's shrink, but I do seem to have a natural tendency to want to help others.
I am starting my own cult up though, any takers?? Haw!
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Korpesco
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 04:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
Vixen it is a straw man logical fallacy to misrepresent, or only show a little piece of an argument for dissection while ignoring the context in which it was given. You might as well expect an attack a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
You are getting all up in arms over this one little comment of 'Bergs brilliance given to him by God" while not reading the context and further explanations given...this is disingenious critiquing.
Note that while ascribing Bergs supposed innate brilliant nature (Joel is christian and no doubt believes that God gives everyone their nature) he also says that God gives free will and that Berg....
"... misused his gifts and used them to control other people. No doubt he fooled himself into thinking he was doing the right thing, and that the Family was the only true religion, Gods elite, etc, which it was not! But in the end, if the stories and testimony are right, he was a loathsome, old perv who couldn't put the bottle down!
For me it is easy to understand what joel is trying to say... an einstein whose intellectual capacity was "God given" can be a serial killer a handsome male with a "God given" body can be a rapist according to choice.
Saying Berg is brilliant by nature is not saying that he is brilliant in deed it is not saying that he is innocent nor is it apologising for him.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From vixen
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 04:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
The context of Joel's article does nothing to balance the obvious stupidity of the statement xhrisl chose to address.
The fact that Joel believes in God makes any argument with him (regarding his views on Berg) redundant, however, since those who believe in God also tend to accept without question the mish-mash of mumbo-jumbo that is the 'Divine Will vs. human free will' viewpoint. I don't actually care what Joel believes, he's perfectly within his rights to think whatever the hell he wants about any given subject. But if he's going to come here and say that kind of thing, he can expect some fierce opposition.
It is easy enough for me to understand what Joel is trying to say, I assure you. But I sure as hell do not agree with him. I don't believe that Berg's ability to manipulate a herd of lost, drugged out hippies who couldn't hack it in the real world made him worthy of that description. Berg was not brilliant by nature. Psychological manipulation is easy and anyone who is extraordinarily charismatic can pull it off. The world is full of stupid people who will follow just about anyone.
'You are getting all up in arms over this one little comment of 'Bergs brilliance given to him by God" while not reading the context and further explanations given...this is disingenious critiquing.'
I am not critiquing. Rather I am coming out and saying, in no uncertain terms, that I consider Joel's statement to be deeply insulting to every single person who experienced any form of abuse in TF, particularly because that abuse was acted out in the name of God and as a direct result of the depraved teachings of a man who chose to call himself God's anointed.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From xolox
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 08:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Berg was only a genius by comparison. Most people around him gave up promising careers and education to follow that looser, in contrast Berg himself admited to have failed at everything he had put his hand to right up until he built TF/COG. In that however he was an unmittigated success.
Berg told everyone he was a genius, and yet he was a chronic failiure. And it looks like some people are still swallowing the hook, line, and sinker.
Joel, a good idea would be to forget everything that man said. I think you all go off track squabbling over who gave Berg the genius bug, when nobody has established if in fact he was a genius at all!
Geniuses don't tend to fail at everything, or else they would not be geniuses. Berg was an opportunist, and one of the worst kind. He was the equivalent of the pawn shop of spiritualists, his bussiness was to rob the destitute in their time of need at/as a profit/phet.(reply to this comment) |
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