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from Jules Friday, June 18, 2004 - 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you are very brave to write on here about something so personal. Scenarios like this are not uncommon among the young former members I know of and in fact a close friend went through the exact same thing just recently. My opinion is that the core issue that many of us have with relationships and sexuality is understanding appropriate and healthy boundaries. To “fall in love” with someone so close to your family and husband suggests that he may have been in your life for some time prior to this. Many of us have difficulty developing close friendships with other people for a variety of reasons, the most obvious being that we are almost always the “new” person around and don’t have the years of history with non-exmember people we meet that it takes to develop friendships in the real world. When these friendships do occur, it can be difficult for them to not become sexualized, since so much of how we learned to relate to others was through flirting and sexual behavior. Perhaps I have become prudish in my old age, but I am always surprised at how much flirting and how many sexual overtones are sometimes in the dialogue between some people on this web site, let alone all the actual shacking up that occurs. I have often wondered if bisexuality in our demographic is really a matter of not knowing how to be intimate without being sexual. Add to this issues of abandonment and extreme insecurity and we can be very vulnerable to sexual predators. You probably care a great deal about this man, and you may not agree with me at all, but from the little you said, it seems that he was very inappropriate with you. There are boundaries that most healthy, mature, respectful men set for their relationships. They do not sleep with their friend’s girlfriends or exes and certainly not their brother’s wives. It does take two to tango and it obviously wasn’t all him, but knowing about the Family and your history, as he did, he would have known that you were vulnerable. A healthy man would have set boundaries in your relationship with him. This is an area I personally struggle a great deal with. I dated a lot for the first six years when I left the Family, and again and again found myself drawn towards things that I knew were unhealthy. I decided to put that entire part of my life (for the most part) on hold until I could establish what my own boundaries were and determine who I really was myself. As a child and teenager in the Family I learned to read what people wanted from me and project that, in exchange for some sort of security and/or caring. I did the same in my relationships, with the result being that no one ever really knew me. I also always felt some sort of resentment below the surface towards my partner for the one sidedness, which was obviously not their fault at all. My putting this on hold occurred around the same time this web site launched and I am grateful that I began to make an effort to learn to interact with people in a more “real” manner at that time. Some of the young exmember men that I gotten to know over the past few years have actually helped me to progress in this area more than they probably know. I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for their kindness, intelligence and integrity. Through their friendship I am beginning to learn how to trust men and connect with them without sexuality even entering the picture. I sense and appreciate their respect and just knowing them has definitely helped me move towards healing and a more solid understanding of myself. I will be eternally grateful for their friendship. These issues have been difficult for me. So much of this is deeply ingrained and it takes work and recognizing the patterns I fall into. While I don’t always succeed, I try to take concrete steps to safeguard against crossing the boundaries I have set for myself. Don’t be alone (especially if you are drinking or engaging in other inhibition lowering substances) with someone with whom there is an attraction and that it would be inappropriate to be sexual with. Don’t just “fool around” a little with someone. Don’t talk about sexual things in a provocative way. As with any other vice, you have to physically remove yourself from temptation sometimes. Men are men and once the blood flow gets diverted from the brain, they are not always rational, even if they know better, and we women can be just as bad sometimes. Most of all, learning to get to know people as people and who they really are in their core, intimacy as separate from sexuality, has been the most healing of all. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Friday, June 18, 2004, 12:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I knew once the rest of us morons had said our piece you'd show up with some real wisdom … well, truth be told, I didn’t read much of your post, and I’m a bit tipsy right now, but I think I gleaned that you’ve become a model of abstention and are recommending that the rest of us promiscuous over-sexed former sex-cult members to follow your example … great advice … maybe I’ll think about it when I’m too old to get it up (if that happens).(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, June 18, 2004, 13:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Wolfie darling, I missed you. I've been busy and my life has been more dramatic than usual lately, so I haven't had the time to read this site much. From what I have seen there have been some very interesting discussions though and I hope I have time to catch up with them. Model of anything is definitely pushing it. I apologise if you gleaned that I am recommending anything as a panacea. I think we all just stumble along and try to understand what works for us. For me personally, learning to connect with other people in a nonsexualized way has been incredibly helpful. I didn’t personally have many (consensual) sexual experiences in the Family, it was only twice and once was after over six months of engagement, and the other I had lived with and had a crush on for years. Both were in my late teens. However the atmosphere and environment affected me more than I think I knew. I do believe that I cannot engage in a wholesome relationship unless I am a whole person, and that is what, in the last few years, I have been trying to move towards. That's all I was trying to say. (reply to this comment)

from banal_commentator Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 12:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Ex-culties are all incestuous swappers. I know these sisters who sleep with eachothers husbands or significant-others and everyones just peachy keen. IMO its a little weird, but I dunno maybe I'm an irrational person. :-P ............... banal, anonymous gossip (reply to this comment)

From Proudly Old Bottle Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 07:22 (Agree/Disagree?) BTW, your saying that you find it weird belies your own statement that "Ex-culties are *all* incestuous swappers." I beg to differ. Though I agree with the puzzlement you express at the instances you *have* seen, I note that to put it that way is stereotype-inviting and encourages people to have prejudices toward us that we really don't need.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 06:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Relax! Fine I shouldn't of said "All." And BTW I was being sarcastic about me being irrational, Bottle, I assume everyone would know it was weird. And what is an Old Bottle? Sounds like a bergism to me. (reply to this comment)

From Proudly Old Bottle Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 06:18 (Agree/Disagree?) It is a bergism but he used it in a derogatory sense and I am asserting it happily as my chosen identity. You see, once in a while when I turn a bergism on its head and am in total control, it can be extra fun and remind me "you've come a long way, baby!(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 09:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I am ashamed to admit that I even knew that "Old Bottle" was a bergism. (reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 09:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, at least you admit it. "If we confess our sins, he is just and faithful to deliver our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." PTL!(reply to this comment)

From banal_comment Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 11:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, TYL. His mercys are new every morning, you forgive us lord. We know that we can abuse and molest and break mans silly, banal laws (like soliciting, changing our identies and that especially silly one, molesting children....damn systemites) then just confess and find forgiveness and a special little place in your heavenly kingdom. TYJ, PYL, GBY, WLYSM, FMJ AYNCTTABAGTBTFBHMYNCTTABAGYDS..........(reply to this comment)

From jez Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 07:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Totally agree! A comment like that can be interpreted as both a generalisation of us as non-entities, as well as an admission of the commentor (if also an 'ex-culty), of incestuous partner-swapping. Personally, as an 'ex-culty', I have never had even the slightest inclination towards incest or swapping. These having been some of the many deciding factors in my leaving.(reply to this comment)

From Proudly Old Bottle Sunday, June 13, 2004, 16:33 (Agree/Disagree?) No, I don't think you're irrational. It's weird to me too. Maybe we're both irrational! I make an effort to understand that some people may think that lifestyle is the bee's knees, but personally it gives me the heebie-geebies after my TF upbringing. I was a misfit in that environment because of the sexual ethos or lack thereof (besides plenty of other reasons). I wonder if some of the swingers among us see it as a point of pride that they didn't throw out that particular baby with the bathwater, if they're "unfavorable" that is. On the other hand I'd be curious to know how many SG exers who consider themselves "favorable" or at least not "antagonistic" just couldn't handle the sexual practices in The Family.(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 06:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I for one long before I considered leaving the Family had a very hard time with the sexual beliefs in the Family. When going through the raid in Lyon and trying to defend the Familys docrines I did not understand why we could not opose the FFing issue, instead of defending it. On my eighteenth birthday on of the leaders in the home asked my to share with one of the "lonely" uncles. I told her no way in hell and then called my friend to cry on his sholder.(reply to this comment)

from frmrjoyish Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 12:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Whatever hurt, pain, or feelings of betrayal you may be feeling, multiply that by about 10 and you might be close to what your husband will feel once he finds out. If you love your husband, you need to grow up, act like a woman, and respect your marriage vows. You should be honest with him about your betrayal and let him make his choice as to whether or not he wants to stay with you. It will hurt him to find out but that is his choice to make, not yours! If you no longer love him, you should still fess up then let him get on with his life and find someone who will love him the way he loved you. What happened happened, you can't change that but you owe it to your husband to be honest with him. As for your partner in crime, the person he betrayed was his wife. She is the victim, not you! You are probably nothing to him but another affair. Obviously he doesn't have some great passionate forbidden love for you and you alone. Now try to muster up some self-respect and send this asshole packing. On a seperate note and without trying to turn this into a gender issue...I wonder how many of the responses would've been so harsh if it was a man that wrote this article. I find it incredible that people are bringing the possible harm done to "future" children that are not even in the picture. When a man is an ass an plays around, I've never heard "future" kids brought into the mix. Let's call a spade a spade, people, but maybe we should be a little more aware of a possible double standard going on here! (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Saturday, June 12, 2004, 12:57 (Agree/Disagree?) I actually do think that staying with a man that you do not love will be detrimental to future children - It will leave you in the position of being just as vulnurable the next time another guy comes along who you feel an attraction for, only you will find yourself in an even greater mess with the added complication of children who will be heartbroken by a split of the family. If you are sure in your heart that this affair was just a one time thing and that you have now got this out of your system, then perhaps you have a fraction of hope of working out a good marriage with your husband. But if you do not feel anything for him, except that he is a lovely guy and 'so perfect', then cut your losses now and go on with your life. As far as the issue of cheating, I do not feel as strongly as some others here that you are a 'bad person' because of what you did - No one can say with absolute certainty that they would NEVER do such-and-such, as we are all capable of almost anything in certain circumstances. These things are often part of a pattern that has been laid down from an early age and are often beyond our control unless we make a concerted effort to resist our self-serving agenda and behave in a way that is healthy. Changing a life-long pattern is difficult without intense self-analysis to find out exactly why you are doing these things. And I don't mean simplistic stuff like the cliches we all hear, "My dad left when I was young, now I can't trust men" etc, but real in-depth soulsearching about the decisions we make and why, along with steps to overcome those issues. I would say that you don't have to feel guilty, after all what's done is done and it takes two people to cheat. But just resolve to not let your emotions run away with you next time. Like someone already said, marriage brings with it a commitment not to act on attraction or lust, because no matter how much you may want to do so, you know that what you have together with your spouse is worth more than a little bit of instant gratification and excitement. This is something that so many people seem to have forgotten today - They run off as soon as they meet someone else who they feel some measure of lust towards, and suddenly another marriage vow goes out the window.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Saturday, June 12, 2004, 13:08 (Agree/Disagree?) And one more thing: Never trust anyone completely ever again in your life! In my opinion it is a total myth that good relationships require 100% trust - I think it should be more like 95% trust and just a little pinch of cynicism. It's important because it keeps us on our toes, helps us not to take our husbands/wives for granted, and most of all, it gives us a bit of an edge in case we are let down at some point. I firmly believe that no one is too good to commit adultery and it is a fallacy that 100% trust and honesty will always keep a marriage strong -- The fact is that many, many people cheat, and it's not always because the marriage is falling apart. Maintaining a degree of mistrust means that you will never give yourself away completely which so many women seem to do, almost as if they become an extension of the man they love instead of cultivating their own strength and independece, and then if their man happens to betray their trust they fall apart completely. Don't give people you love that kind of power over you. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Monday, June 14, 2004, 11:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Vicky: "No one can say with absolute certainty that they would NEVER do such-and-such." Anthony: If what you say is true, then what you say cannot be said with absolute certainty,and might as well be quiet. There are certain things which I can say with absolute certainty that I will never do! Things that I will never do willingly, assuming I'm in complete control of my faculties (and no, "I was drunk" is not a valid excuse in my book for certain things). I know some people who are too good to commit adultery,is "good" is indeed the apropriate word to use here. I prefer the word "beyond". Some of us have evolved beyond our primitive and animalistic origins and are continually striving to become what Nietzsche described as the Ubermensch,exercising the "will to power" and evolving far beyond our baser & selfish instincts. GENDER ISSUES: I knew that some lady would try to turn this into a gender issue, despite the customary disclaimer. In my little story I did allude to future children whether the cheaters were/are ,male or female. When something has historically been an issue of contention,when that issue has been resolved to a large extent, if not completely, if seem that, through the force of habit, some individuals seek to keep that contention alive. I continually notice this in gender and race issues. Why the fuck can't we all just get along? JERSEYGIRL: If you mock the Lord's wordbearer, He may just shut-up and leave you wondering in the wilderness for forty years,or better yet, he may smite you off your horse and afflict you for your foolishness and seeking a sign like the evil generation. Please take heed to yourself, and I'll interceed and ask God to spare you his judgment.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 11:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Anthony, I agree that my wording was slightly amiss there... What I actually meant was that the self-important attitude of "I would NEVER do that" is a bit unrealistic, in my opinion, when it comes to love, sex and relationships, as it seems that many people who swear up and down that they would NEVER cheat/date a married man/get married/get divorced/etc end up doing that very thing. I agree too that 'beyond committing adultery' is a better way to put it. (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 11:33 (Agree/Disagree?) And yet some would beg to differ that learning to take our baser and selfish instincts and find a way to live with them in a manner that is agreeable to us and our own IS ,in itself, evolving far beyond. I think Aldeus Huxley was really onto something when he described sex and relationships in his description of Utopia in BNW, but then again, maybe it would be necessary to have the soma to go along with it. Oh yeah, BTW Ant, I think I'll opt to wander with the murmurers--always was pretty good at that. And spare me the mana and quail--a bit too carb-heavy and fattening unless you can provide me with a knife to put to my throat lest I overeat.(reply to this comment)

from moon beam Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 09:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Just a few thots as I agree with alot of what Shackled said. I think you need to explore why you cheated and explain that to him.(temptation, opportunity, bordom, feeling un-loved, growing apart etc.) My reason for not cheating is basically I couldn't stand to see the hurt in my partners eyes or to lose his love and respect. Commiting to one life partner doesn't mean you'l never fancy or lust after anyone else, but by loving your partner you are saying I will not put my self in a position where I make it difficult to hold a boundary where the possibility of *falling in love/lust can occur. The only thing I can say is if you want him back you'll have to be honest and quite likely he will not want you back when he knows, then theirs his sister who may not be so forgiving. Good luck, maybe this will be good in the long run for the both of you. (reply to this comment)

from Dr. 4- Shure Friday, June 11, 2004 - 22:24 (Agree/Disagree?) To: Dream Catcher You say this guy was your husbands brother in law? Meaning he was cheating on his wife indirectly by having this "affair" with you? No offense but if this guys cheating on his wife to have a fling with you, well I'm pretty sure he's not gonna be faithful to any one. Please clarify and correct me if I'm wrong! Dr.4- Shure (reply to this comment)

from Dr. 4- Shure Friday, June 11, 2004 - 22:24 (Agree/Disagree?) To: Dream Catcher You say this guy was your husbands brother in law? Meaning he was cheating on his wife indirectly by having this "affair" with you? No offense but if this guys cheating on his wife to have a fling with you, well I'm pretty sure he's not gonna be faithful to any one. Please clarify and correct me if I'm wrong! Dr.4- Shure (reply to this comment)

from Shackled Friday, June 11, 2004 - 20:48 (Agree/Disagree?) I think your biggest mistake lies in your thinking pattern. You said: "He was having an affair with me, but I didn't think he would cheat on me with someone else. " If this guys character is flawed then why would he change for you when the relationship was based on sex. A part of me feels sympathetic because I understand how love can be blind. But for your age you seem very immature to me. Why did you marry your husband in the first place? Was it on a whim or was he the best in bed at the time or was it tested with time first? You said you only fall for men that hurt you. Does this mean you never "fell" for your husband and married him for the wrong reason? I think you should break it off with this current guy and be honest with your husband, with out expecting him to take you back. You say he's perfect but obviously you don't believe this. He has the qualities that you know are most important and probably what others tell you are most important but I don't believe you believe this. If your priority is primarily physical gratification then don't ruin his life. Fortunately you don't have any kids. You've taken him for granted, which alot of immature men and women do. You have to learn to think of the consequences ahead of time and plan based on your priorities. Affairs can be exciting, the thrill of the secret can be attractive as well. It's not much of a challenge compared to keeping a marriage exciting. An affairs danger also plays a part into the sex being good. But all flings eventually end and it looks like yours has too. Perhaps if it had not carried out so long you wouldn't be in this position. You said the both of you tried to stop it numerous times knowing it was the right decision but you both gave into physical desire. I think honestly communicating this with your husband would've solved the problem and could've even led to better sex. But you hid it and went down the wrong road. Your pattern of going against your conscience seems too strong. In your article you mentioned a number of things you knew you shouldn't do but did. Your husband deserves a better wife and mother for his future kids. For your own sake and his choose what kind of life you want. There's nothing wrong with being single and having "great sex". But don't leach off of him for security and love if you aren't prepared to do your part of the marriage vows. Leave him for a woman that wants and deserves his kind of love and commitment. I hope this isn't too harsh but you seriously need a reality check. (reply to this comment)

from itsxena2u Friday, June 11, 2004 - 16:27 (Agree/Disagree?) What goes around, comes around! If this man is willing to cheat on his wife, the one he promised to "love and cherish till death do us part", what is stopping him from doing the same to YOU? I don't cheat! Why? Because I would never want the one I love to do the same to me. I would never date a married man because it just shows the kind of character he is. Once a cheater, always a cheater! The very fact that he belonged to someone else (whether or not he was cheating on her with other women) should've been an instant red flag to you. It would've been bad enough if you were single and trying to steal another woman's man, but what's worse is you are capable of hurting the one man who loves and respects you! I personally don't think you deserve your husband's (or ex) love and respect. I don't care how bad off your marriage was, if you truly didn't love him anymore, I still think you owed it to him to tell him so and end the marriage before embarking on any relationship. (God forbid that there are children involved in these two families) The fact that you are "blaming the Family" for being so fucked up, is just bullshit! We have all seen the detrimental and damaging effects the ff'ing, law of love and polygamous relationships had on our parent's marriage, that we should know well enough that this type of behaviour is totally unacceptable! My parents divorced when I was 14 because my dad fell in love with a younger woman, my mom loved my dad so much that she was willing to stay in a "threesome" just so that she could still be with him. He didn't want to have anything to do with her anymore. He left her because she was out every night f..ing other guys during the FFing era. This whole situation had such a negative effect on my sibbling and I that till this day we have not had a very good relationship with our parents. There are so many hurt feelings involved. I was married to an abusive alcoholic for 9 years. I put up with so much crap its unreal. In my heart, I knew I deserved better. I wanted another man, but I was willing to put my desires aside for the sake of my kids. It was only until the horrible effects of his drinking problems was hurting my kids, that I decided to put my foot down and call it quits! I stood all I could until I could stand no more! I'm sorry dear! But if you thought you were going to get some sympathy by coming to this website and telling your little sob story then you're wrong. You might find others on this site who will sympathise with you because they might have done the same damn thing too. But you sure as hell won't get any from me! I think you need to pick youself up out of the mud, wipe your little tears, and take your sorry little cheating ass sob story someplace else. And one more thing, don't go around thinking that you deserve to find a guy that'll be faithful to you. Because you don't. If you do however find one, consider yourself lucky and you'd better think twice before letting your eyes wander again! (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Friday, June 11, 2004, 23:40 (Agree/Disagree?) So Joe and Ex aren’t the only narcissists around here … unlike TF I think taking pride in our abilities and accomplishments is great, but this post reeks of I’m-better-than-you conceit, and there are few things I hate worse. It’s exactly the kind of attitude that has fostered every kind of discrimination and bigotry since the beginning of time. BTW, I’ve never been married so I don’t sympathize with this woman because I’m a “cheater”. I sympathize with her because I’ve made stupid mistakes and I know how it feels. On a slightly different subject, this story is yet another confirmation of the importance of both sex before marriage and sex with multiple partners before marriage. (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Saturday, June 12, 2004, 07:34 (Agree/Disagree?) WOLF, to quote your own words: "This post reeks of I’m-better-than-you conceit". Here is my answer. I AM better than she is (in that respect)! Good men are hard to find, it is an utter shame to throw it all away for temporary sexual gratification! Wouldn't you as a decent hard working man (I am assuming that you are) want a woman that not only loved you but was faithful, dependable, loyal and trustworthy? Someone you knew would be there for you come rain or shine? Someone you knew would love you for who you are and you would never have to be insecure or worry that she is out getting her freak on with another guy while you are out sweating blood and tears to make ends meet? Someone who you knew wouldn't just be with you one day and gone the next? These are the characteristics that make some women (and men) BETTER than others. I do not consider this to be "self-righteous". We all make "stupid mistakes" as you said. I have made my share of mistakes. I am not looking for perfection in a relationship. There is no such thing as a perfect human being. And I'm not saying her mistake is unforgiveable either! This matter is solely between her and her husband. No one should judge her husband if he decides to forgive her and take her back. But I do think he deserves to know if she still loves him or not. The most painful thing in the world is deeply loving someone that does not love you back. I know from experience that "cheating" can be forgiven. I have loved a man strongly enough to forgive his infidelity. Does this make me special? Does this make me better? Yes it does.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Sunday, June 13, 2004, 05:32 (Agree/Disagree?) “Wouldn't you as a decent hard working man … want a woman that not only loved you but was faithful, dependable, loyal and trustworthy ... and you would never have to be insecure or worry that she is out getting her freak on with another guy?” I’m hard working, yes. Decent – not always. And no, I don’t want a woman with all of those wonderful qualities. I like women who make my blood boil with desire and my mind spin with anticipation. If they wanna “get their freak on with another guy (or girl)”, great! – Maybe I’ll even show up to take some photos or join in. I guess this explains why I’m not married yet. And I’m sure I’ll change my mindset once I start having kids (if that happens).(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Sunday, June 13, 2004, 12:01 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess some people aren't considered "cheaters" because they never commit to anyone. Whatever makes you happy. See, your case (in my opinion) is different. You are not hurting anyone and aren't being hurt emotionally either. I think the term cheating has a very negative connotation to it because it is often interpreted as doing something you know would hurt your mate/spouse by doing it behind their back. However there are some couples who regularly swap sex partners. I think they're called "swingers". I personally don't see anything wrong with that. As long as your partner and you are in agreement that you both are "seeing" other people. I know married couples (not exers) who have regular sex with other couples, and they're fine with it. I don't consider this being unfaithful. My husband abandoned us by leaving the country and never once called us in over a year. I fell in love with another man, and although I was still "legally" married I did not consider this cheating because not only was he (ex-hubby) no longer was a part of our family but I just didn't have the money to finalize my divorce papers sooner. The word "cheating" can describe many things. To me cheating is something you do without telling your significant other. Something you do that you know would break his/her heart. (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Saturday, June 12, 2004, 06:32 (Agree/Disagree?) ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! Do your partying and sleeping around BEFORE getting married! Have as much great sex as you can BEFORE making a lifetime committment to someone. Now I'm not saying that cheating is an unforgivable (reply to this comment)

from Wolf Friday, June 11, 2004 - 14:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Sounds so “Legends of the Fall” … just please don’t end it the same way Julia Ormond’s character did. Oh, and, nothing’s wrong with you. It’s called life, and it happens to almost everyone. In my opinion those who don’t experience this type of situation haven’t truly lived. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Friday, June 11, 2004, 20:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Thats of course only if you think you have to go against your conscience to truly live. Affairs are exciting at first but there are plenty of other exciting things you can do without hurting someone. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 11, 2004, 14:47 (Agree/Disagree?) Or you could just watch a French movie, they all seem to involve a love triangle of some sorts!(reply to this comment)

from cheeks Friday, June 11, 2004 - 13:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I think blaming the Family for your relationship problems is a cop-out. I think you need to start by being honest with yourself before you start trying to sort your life out. Let's look at the facts, what you did was selfish and you didn't think about your family and what you had at home. I think crying about the fact that your brother in law may be cheating with someone else is so selfish I don't know where to begin. You lost your family, and you lost you husbands trust. You broke up you home and your child may never be the same. While this may be harsh you were the one who asked the question. I think you need to have a time out and see where your priorities lie. And your priority should be your child. Cut off the relationship and get serious with who you are. Stop blaming your bad decision on your past you were the one who made the choice to cheat and your past had little to do with it. (reply to this comment)

From dreamcatcher Friday, June 11, 2004, 13:29 (Agree/Disagree?) cheeks *my mistake i meant to write that i can't blame the family. i think it would be childish from me to do so. I now what i did was wrong, i am not trying to make excuses for it. and i dont have a child.(reply to this comment)

From Nin Sunday, June 13, 2004, 18:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I think maybe this is not the very best place to get the kind of answers you need. That is if you really are asking yourself what is wrong with you & why you keep on chosing the "wrong men". If this is the kind of behaviour you have kept up for a long time & it ruins your relationships then maybe you need to go to the right people that can really help you see what the problem is. I think that your past has a lot to do with your behaviour & mainly when it has to do with your relationships. Don´t let people put you down just because you messed up. If someone betrays you it hurts no matter what you have done & yeah, it just might be karma but that doesn´t changethe fact that it really sucks when you find out that someone has cheated on you & betrtayed your trust. My humble opinion is that you find someone that can really help you (profesional help)with your problem before taking another step or going by what people here are going to tell you...no offense to anyone that has offered their sincere help here, but I don´t think that any of us are in our right to tell you what to do or make you feel bad about what you did...it´s called life & it happens to all of us that have one & you need to try to your best to do things right & if you hate yourself & feel guilty all the time you wont make your life any better, so get all that out with someone that is really qualified to listen objectively. .....(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Sunday, June 13, 2004, 21:24 (Agree/Disagree?) What rock did you crawl out from? What's with this "putting you down" ? I think there have been sympathizers and critics so far. It's not healthy to only have one. All of us had similar upbringings and will understand alot better then a professional. I think the problem she's had is not getting honest opinions from friends or strangers to where she went on so long without changing her habits. I'm n(reply to this comment)

From Nin Monday, June 14, 2004, 14:56 (Agree/Disagree?) My, how agressive! maybe you should think about getting some professional help too. I wasn´t expecting someone to take my comment so personally since I think I was generalizing more than anything else....but if you think that all it takes to help you in your life are honest opinions than maybe you need to live a little more. If you hadn´t noticed I wasn´t being either a sympathizer or a critic, I prefer not to even give my "honest opinion" about a certain situation if I don´t know her or her situation first hand, but instead I was offering a bit of advice as alternatives in finding out what she can do, maybe she had already thought about it & it was unecessary for me to say it but I think we all have a right to say what we think ....don´t you?(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Monday, June 14, 2004, 19:10 (Agree/Disagree?) So I guess I was overly agressive and you are entitled to your opinion just like I am. However, just because you generalized does not mean I can't take it personal because I am one of the ones you refered to. You said: "no offense to anyone that has offered their sincere help here, but I don´t think that any of us are in our right to tell you what to do or make you feel bad about what you did" So you saying that because we don't have a license we can't offer our honest opinions? Your I'm humble attitude pisses me off actually. You're just like those who post anonymous and you don't even say your "honest opinion". Makes me sick that you got no guts. We didn't make her feel bad. We just laid out the truth. She made a mistake and should feel bad about it. Recognizing what she did wrong is alot better then self pity. You said: "If someone betrays you it hurts no matter what you have done & yeah, it just might be karma but that doesn´t changethe fact that it really sucks when you find out that someone has cheated on you & betrtayed your trust." You write as if she's the one getting betrayed. Did you not read her article right? Maybe you should stop offering your gutless humble opinion and leave those who wish to speak frankly alone. You said: "If you hadn´t noticed I wasn´t being either a sympathizer or a critic". I'd say you were being a sympathizer before you even read her article. You weren't being a critic because you generalized? You pretty much said all our opinions were makin her feel bad so she should go elsewhere to nurture her self pity. If I say it this way is it better for you. In my humble opinion and not "honest opinion" I think you should read the whole article, remember what this site is for and show where you stand. And I'm generalizing here so don't take it personally. (reply to this comment)

From Estie....formerly known as Nin Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 14:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I am so sorry that you are pissed about my "I´m humble attitude", I sincerely did not want to offend anyone & that is why I said " no offense to anyone that has offered their sincere help here"...I honestly didn´t want to offend anyone. Although you did prove me right when you said " We didn't make her feel bad. We just laid out the truth. She made a mistake and should feel bad about it. Recognizing what she did wrong is alot better then self pity." First you say you didn´t make her feel bad, then you say she should feel bad about what she did.....and in my understanding that is implying that because you laid out the truth she will feel bad fot the mistake that she did....meaning you did make her feel bad....but it was something that she had to feel anyway?? I was not intending to debate with anyone about my opinion & I was speaking to the one that wrote the article only. You can look at my profile now if that is what what was bothering you as well... I read the whole article & I believe that she wasn´t writing in order to get told that she did wrong, I think she already knew that, I thought she was asking for help somewhat, maybe we just interpreted the article differently. I really am sorry for causing you feelings of anger & so forth but I really was trying to give her ( I repeat) another alterntive. I don´t think I´ll post anything else about this subject & so if you believe me or not that I was giving my sincere, non-bias opinion, then I guess there is nothing I can do . (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 18:27 (Agree/Disagree?) I also don't want to continue this because it distracts from the article. But I will answer your questions. We didn't make her feel bad. We told her how it is. She was already in a state of self-pity. How she reacted to our comments was entirely up to her. And if that reaction was guilt then so be it. No need to apologize for how you are. You need to forget that turn the other cheek crap. But if you didn't intend to debate with anyone then why did you trash us? If you say shit, shit will get thrown back. You could have offered your opinion on getting professional help without dissin everyone else, whose opinion differed from yours. I am curious why you suggested professional help. Have you experienced answers through this method? Are you a shrink? By t (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Monday, June 14, 2004, 19:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I totally agree. I probably would have sympathized with her if she had been in an abusive situation. I wouldn't have blamed her for falling for a loving man if she was constantly being verbally and physically abused by her husband. I'm not saying that it would've made it right, but I would've been a little more understanding of the situation. Even then, so many women put up with so much bullshit and still remain faithful. It just makes my blood boil over when I hear of some women who have everything and still aren't happy. (I'm not just reffering to dreamcatcher) Sometimes I even wish I wasn't as dedicated as I am. I get sick and tired of putting so much of my time, love and energy into these "losers" that don't even appreciate what I do for them. My friends always tell me I need to have an "affair" and that I need another man on the side like a fuck buddy. Believe me, I have thought about cheating several times! I've often wondered what my life would be like if I took more risks and experimented more. Would I be happier? Would I be more independent? Less likely to become emotionally involved with every sexual encounter? Perhaps. But then again, this is not who I am. Every time I've tried to be everything but myself I have have failed in some way or another. Call me old fashion or unrealistic but my idea of happiness is finding the man I love and "living happily ever after". (yeah right, Xena! wake up goofball!) The best I can do is just be myself and hope someone will come to love me for who I am.(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 06:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Why don't you just stay single and date around until the right guy comes along? Then it wouldn't be considered cheating. I am strongly in favor of dating as much as possible before you settle down with someone. And I would like to know that the man I end up with chose me out of many other women. That way you can compare and contrast each persons good and bad points. I know that sounds terribly unromantic and a bit like going grocery shopping, but people spend more time and thought choosing which car or house to buy. Shouldn't the same amount of thought and preparation go into choosing the one your going to invest the most important thing of all..your life and heart?(reply to this comment)

From jez Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 07:54 (Agree/Disagree?) WISDOM! A bit like going through a team to find the best all-rounder. Some may be good in defense(left/right or centre), others in attack or midfield (ditto), but should you have to play one-on-one, which would you choose? They'll all be the best at something and if you can find one who's best at everything, then you're laughing. However, a more realistic approach is to accept that no one's perfect and if you've found someone who excells in YOUR criterium, then be happy, enjoy and stop talent-scouting!(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 10:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Agreed! But in order to stop talent-scounting you have to start. And any good talent scout knows that you don't stop at the first one or two guys who can fill out a uniform and make your heart go piter pat! You have to first test them out and watch them play to see if they've got game. And testing and auditioning lots of players is the best way to find the one who will perform best on your team. Good metaphor, Jez! ; )(reply to this comment)

From Fig on Dating Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 09:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree with you and fmrjoyish. The whole concept of how people date and eventually commit if they decide to is a foreign process to me. I have reacted by not getting involved. While sitting on the sidelines I have read some funny things like this book which cracked me up but is really a good primer for those of us who grew up in a culture where our parents' generation screw around so much and then were so intrusive and controlling of our "love life," on whichever side of the spectrum to which the pendulum had swung at the moment. What is certain is that they never set out to seek our best interests. It was "it's bad security to get under-16-year-olds pregnant so operate accordingly" then "y'all are going to be fleeing into the wilderness soon so don't get together or have babies" then Mo decides "it's time to teach these kids responsibility" and makes people who think they like each other do the Make it Work thing. I identify with xena's statement about having a capacity to love completely, saying "Call me old fashion or unrealistic but my idea of happiness is finding the man I love and "living happily ever after"." Same here, and I think growing up in the cult affected me so now I keep my distance until somebody really interests me, and I don't "date around" because I am so skittish from my upbringing. The problem is that with that attitude of mine you can end up too invested in someone who's not going to respond or who is unused to that intensity and depth of feeling being expressed so they freak out and run. When we were forced to live 100% for something we never chose, we are capable of immense dedication to something we have chosen or that is on our "wavelength." Unfortunately, if we don't observe the norms of the culture around us until such a time as the person who wants what we have to offer does decide that they want it and us, I am afraid we can come accross like needy, clingy psychos to those who don't understand where we're coming from. At least us girls. So our heart gets crushed, we can feel humiliated and confused and the sensitive ones withdraw. Maybe some day I'll learn the steps of the dating dance and step off my familiar wallflower shelf, who knows. Oh yeah, that book is "Universal Dating Regulations and Bylaws: American Dating Association." It's totally tongue in cheek, FYI, but at the same time for someone as clueless as me you actually learn what the hell people expect. On amazon you can find it here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074320056X/qid=1087316946/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8491150-8721636?v=glance&s=books(reply to this comment)

from Anthony Friday, June 11, 2004 - 11:28 (Agree/Disagree?) It’s ostensibly a bit too late for this oracle advice, but I need to practice typing, so I’ll give it anyway. On the other hand, it may be too late to do you any good, but it just may divert individuals who are on the verge of commiting emotional treachery for going along with their intended filth. It is wise to remember that the way you get them will often be the way you loose them. I told this to one of my very good friends years ago when he hooked-up with one of his female co-workers who was currently in a relationship with one of his male co-workers and friend. I asked him what the fuck makes him think that she won’t in turn cheat on him some fine day if she was cheating on her man with him? Oh, but they were in love, the real, true lasting love; well, excuse me sir. Well, truth be told, they were really in love; I was halfway amazed, being the honest cynic that often am. So a few years go by, and it looks like our dear Anthony was wrong, but as I rarely am, sure enough, the shit happened. Old boy was crushed. And all I could do was laugh at his tears (because it sickens me to see a man cry) and tell him “I fucking told you so!!!” I don’t want to be guilty of committing the fallacy of composition or unfair labeling. In other words, just because someone did something a few times doesn’t necessarily the will do it again & again all the day of their lives. But we do have words such as “history,” “patterns,” & “addiction.” Some motherfucks, both female and male are seemingly addicted to drama; others are what I call “emotional vagabonds” and “love bums.” These types should never get married, and they should certainly never have children, because those poor children will be destined for broken homes, traumatic trips back and forth between their separated parents, bitchy step-moms and dirty old step-dads. The essence of my post does in no way allude to Karma or the adage “what goes around, comes around,” as I don’t adhere or believe in either. You idiots really need to ask yourselves some logical questions prior to engaging in adultery and fornication! Spend lees time thinking with your dicks and cunts and more with your brains. Notice that I did not use the word “heart.” The heart is simply an organic pump used to circulate blood throughout the body. The brain is the emotional center from whence comes love, or delusions thereof. I understand your need to talk, and we can all use a shoulder to shit on, but in all honesty, no one can really tell you what do, especially not from an Internet article. Suggestions may be giving, but ultimately, you’ll do what you want. I guess it would be fair to tell the dude that you read his email and why you don’t want to see him again, if indeed this is the case, at least give him that courtesy – not that either of you deserve it, to be sure. Finally, I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone who was/is in decent physical health that “couldn’t help them self.” I hope someday you can enter a relationship with a person with who you can be honest with and would be just as honest with you. Happy love hunting. (reply to this comment)

From Auty Friday, June 11, 2004, 15:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Tend to agree with Tony on this one, although I do not believe that "once a cheater, always a cheater." Not that Tony implied that. My personal thoughts are if you meet someone and they are cheating on their significant other to see you, even if they leave their girl/boyfriend (wife, husband) to be with you, in the back of your mind you will always be wondering if they are seeing someone on the side while with you. To make matters worse, if they don't show up on time, you can't reach them or the story of their whereabouts seems "suspicious" you will have an emotional roller coaster which involves your insecurities will play a large part into contributing to. Sometimes it is wise for one to step back before diving in head first to think (as Tony mentioned) with their brain (the amygdala & limbic system to be specific) and look ahead in your futures before making a plung that not only hurts the others involved but will reap havic in your own personal life as well. (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Friday, June 11, 2004, 11:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you Anthony!! Thank you so much! As you know we all anxiously await any little crumbs of advice from a love guru such as yourself. We are not worthy! We are not worthy!(reply to this comment)

from Questions Friday, June 11, 2004 - 11:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Any chances of getting back with your husband and do you still love him? Because if you do, you should hold on to him. You fucked up really bad, but you might want to be honest with him and see if he forgives you. He will most likely find out eventually. Many couples have gone thru similar situations and have somehow worked things out. I am against cheating, I think is the wort lack of respect towards the other person and I would have a hard time forgiving. But, we are humans... As far as A goes, forget about him. He is not worth it, you have a good man (you said it yourself), don't give him up for a dreamy idiot. You were both equally at fault here, but you have a husband and it's your reponsability to him to try to work things out (if there's still love). I don't mean to sound like a old lady, but I just feel bad for good people that are hurt so many times by our stupid actions. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 11, 2004, 11:32 (Agree/Disagree?) From her article, I think it's very clear who she loves when she describes her husband's brother-in-law: "I really felt for him. I loved him, adored him, and did things for him that I have never done before for anyone. He knew he was the center and [sic: of] my entire universe. He was kind, shy, thoughtful, he understood me, comforted me, he has been the best I have ever had in bed, and I believed in him."(reply to this comment)

From Questions Friday, June 11, 2004, 11:52 (Agree/Disagree?) I know what that feels like and I have gone thru a similar situation. It's very painful when something like that happens, but that love and adoration will fade. It's all love and adoration at the beggining of a relationship. I have been 5 years with someone and I truly believe that what I felt at the beggining of our relationship is very different to the love that I feel now. It's based on trust and respect. Our relationship has grown and matured, and to be honest I think that is what counts. You can have the best sex in your life with someone that won't (and pardon my line) complete you. I can understand that she fells strongly for A., I'm almost certain that this won't be the end of the heartaches if she stays with A.(reply to this comment)

From Hobbit Friday, June 11, 2004, 12:32 (Agree/Disagree?) dream you live you learn. i believe than many of us at sometime have done something stupid for "love", so just get up and start new. With someone more worthwhile. and yes getting along in the bed is great, but that wont solve the problems that you might encounter out of it. (reply to this comment)

from Jerseygirl Friday, June 11, 2004 - 11:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think what you did was necessarily stupid. It's the fact that you have no sense to harbour a little more doubt and cynisism in the whole "love" thing. You've been married for 7yrs and you still don't realise that things are never what they start out being? Maybe you need a complete course to refresh your memory about how love stinks, people change, everyone lies, and so on and so forth. Don't get too down about it all, just realise that it's the nature of that particular beast. (reply to this comment)

from exister Friday, June 11, 2004 - 10:54 (Agree/Disagree?) This article has enough twists for an entire episode of Jerry Springer. I am writing him a proposal. If you, hubby and "A" get on I get a cut. Also hubby and "A" will have to sign a waiver regarding whatever infuries they suffer as a result of the blows they meet out to each other on stage. Maybe we can throw in a segment about your cult past too. The more scandalous the better. The script would go something like this: dreamcatcher and hubby sitting on the stage post dreamcatcher's confession. Jerry: "Well let's meet A. A come on out" As soon as A is in sight hubby body slams him. A escapes from hubby's grasp then hides behind a chair. dreamcatcher: "Stop it! I love you both!" Steve the security guy rushes in to break up the melee. What do you think. Are you game? (reply to this comment)

From neez Monday, June 14, 2004, 18:11 (Agree/Disagree?) lol(reply to this comment)

From dreamcatcher Friday, June 11, 2004, 11:35 (Agree/Disagree?) at least someone finds it amusing(reply to this comment)

from Joe H Friday, June 11, 2004 - 10:44 (Agree/Disagree?) "How do I remove from my forehead the label: 'I am stupid'? " Stop doing stupid things? Just a thought. (reply to this comment)

From Elle Friday, June 11, 2004, 13:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Still wondering who gave you the thumbs up?(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 11, 2004, 14:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Someone who agrees with me, maybe?(reply to this comment)

From Elle Friday, June 11, 2004, 14:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Was that witty? Come on, you can do so much better than that!(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 11, 2004, 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, I wasn't sure how to respond at first, because you put a question mark at the end of "Still wondering who gave you the thumbs up." Does this mean you're asking me who gave me the thumbs up? Or are you implying that it was you? Never mind, I know at least one person who agreed with my comment. If you're wondering who it was, you needn't look very far. (reply to this comment)