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Getting Through : Dealing
Going within And Going Within Part two | from cyborcosmic - Monday, October 27, 2003
accessed 5184 times You cannot teach a man anything. You can only help him to find it within himself. - Galileo This last week I did an Intensive week of searching within. I went deep but didn't drown, I kept swimming in all my shit for the entire week. Oh my God. This is what I found: I have found so many negative judgments, no acceptance, shame, blame, soooooooooooo much ANGER plus lots and lots of RAGE towards all those sicko weirdo’s, plus even more shame about being raised in a sexual group. If you think that being in a sex cult doesn't affect your sexual being, then you are in denial.
My Mom is a bitch. I really truly cannot find any forgiveness for that woman, oh and I'm not thinking that I have to or should because she's my mother. I might find a tiny bit of forgiveness when the both of them stop making us feel bad about them raising us. (Which they do!!!!) I remember them saying "we work so hard to keep this family going" (!!! \??) Lies, Lies and more Lies, that is all they gave us. They didn't raise us!!! Yet they continually make us feel guilty. Guilty about the food they bought for us, ("bought?") guilty for the house (trailer) we had, guilty for us having such a wonderful "opportunity" to work for God. That is how they had power over me, with the guilt trips they were constantly on, making me feel like I wasn't good enough. And it worked, because I never felt good enough. I never was accepted as good or worthy in the group or with my parents. Those sicko's, they said they loved us, and yet the lies would continue. I remember the rage I felt/feel when my Mom says the words "I love you". Remember the unworthiness and lack of acceptance you felt when people wanted to be your friends/lovers?
It is all their righteous judgments, lack of love and acceptance passed on to us. Well, no more Lies for me. My Mom is still showing a lack of acceptance for me. She just can't take it that I am doing what I want now. All I get is discouragements and her beliefs about God, well fuck off! For instance, from my childhood I remember her saying: "Oh, I can't do anymore, I can’t take it any more." I remember all her weaknesses! She still can not THINK to get a job and start supporting her children from her own pocket! She must first pray and beg to God for things to be taken care of for her! She is still together with the same man who abused her and her children for almost 20 years because she can not THINK of a better solution for herself and her children.
At this Intensive we were shown a slide show of suffering. I saw one slide that did it for me. It was a slide of a trailer trash family. The dad, who was bald, fat and ugly, holding his small little girl under the covers while his wife was right next to him sleeping in the very same bed! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! UGHGGHGHGHHHHH!
That is where the shame is from, from their sick ways. WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO DESERVE SHAME. "The Family" made me afraid, afraid of people. I lost touch with people because they abused me and pushed me down. I have so many sexual fears because of them. I spent 2 days feeling the fears. I felt rage because of the violation I must have felt when I was spanked, touched, restricted, repressed and lied to, and made to feel unworthy. And it goes on! There are thousands of little cruelties done to us that we took personally because we knew no better! I felt such neediness for acceptance and love in my life. That is why I wanted to please everybody. Especially men. I confronted that I have many reasons for wanting to please men. I felt ashamed, can you believe it? I had so much shame that I felt ashamed with my own boyfriend when he looked at me. I just needed to believe so much that I could love and give. At the Intensive I found out that I couldn't even receive, because the shame was so thick. I found out how to truly give now, not because of any "should's", but just because you have so much to share with people that you feel like giving non-stop, that’s what real giving feels like.
I confronted fears of hurting people, I mean remember how much we were hurt? But I never wanted to hurt other people, so I hurt myself.
I am living a lie because I don't want to hurt people. And it’s the whole Family concept that we have to love so 'unconditionally' and 'self-sacrifice'. I'd rather do that with someone I love all the way, with no doubts. Someone that I love every part of, and not just everything that my needy self NEEDS.
This life now must be everything that I choose, because I want to go further, and not stay comfortable with false contentment and illusory Love. I also felt a lot of feelings for you all out there when I thought of all the pain you went through. I felt your pain too and the rage, the pure rage at all the injustices in our lives. If you want to write me about any of this I am here. Also all the sexual shame, I am still not over all of it, but I've freed up some of the fears around it, and I can feel my sexual being breathe for the first time. ”Like a virgin, touched for the very first time.” But first I threw up from remembering sexual abuse, (like I did in my bed in Amsterdam when I was 5!) I screamed rage from my lower parts, I felt energy pushing there, hurting everything and I felt the pain of sex. (Like a period pain, but so much more.)
Now, I think my body is saying thank you! My soul is saying thank you. My friends even are acting so different towards me. Not so careful. And I can be open and vulnerable, showing them all my feelings. It just reminds me of what it was like to stay in denial and not being able to enjoy everything I deserve.
write me if any of this brought up any strong emotions inside, what are they?
How can you let them go? (Release!!!!)
I would recommend beating up a pillow, screaming from that place that no one knows and crying ALL the tears that need to be cried.
I want to share your pain and I care so much more. Fuck our parents and that cult. Imagine how much repression all those people have. Oh my God! http://www.miracle.org at this site you can find help and if anyone wants to know about an Intensive program email me.
Of course you can also just go within without doing a program, but the truth is that we need so much love and support to face all our fears and that is what you can receive there.
In Love, Pandita
Going Within Part 2
Going within yourself takes courage, then it takes a willingness to go through whatever you encounter within.
This past summer I returned to do another Intensive program with the organization The Miracle of Love who is a psychology/eastern spiritual group (NRM?) based in San Diego.
I attended a program in Germany where they are based in Europe.
I'd like to state that I have no furthur dealings with this organization apart from these 2 intensives that I have done in the past 2 years. The reason being that I took the help I needed at that time and now I have moved beyond.
I believe that with any therapy, there comes a time when you have to end it and get back to living.
What this program has given me, is that it enabled me to understand and release the issues that were blocking me from living my life. The danger of therapy groups is that you can get 'caught' in dealing with issues unless you also take the actions to move on.
I also recommed asking many questions before attending any therapy group program to see if it's really right for you.
After 2 years of dealing, i feel less caught up with the past, and now at 22 I feel like living my life to it's fullest and achieving great sasisfaction in everything I do.
I still hurt when I remember the injustice and abuse commited by the COG. The pain is great enough to propel me forward though. It is my way of saying that the COG didn't bring me down with abuse, the abuse made me strong because I survived it.
Putting the pieces together these past years is something that I didn't do alone. Alot of healing came from the support I received outside of my home/family setting. Even though my mother can't undo the damage she did to me, she is now doing the best she can with my younger siblings. I respect her now because I know she is doing the best she can.
In the past I believe that our parents weren't able to keep us from the damaging influences of cult abuse, for the simple reason that they were also damaged.
They might not have been beaten, (although many women were) they might have had better tools to survive than us children, they might have been able to defend themselves better; but they were incapable of saving us or themselves. The ones that were cabable have long left the COG.
On this journey of Life, I understand that none of us are victims of circumstance. Every action that we take is in our own hands. I have given up on redemption because nothing that is past condition can be redeemed. To spend my life hoping that it can be is a waste of my precious present condition. Because everything can be conquered.
To all of you survivors:
Never give up on yourself or your dreams!
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Cultinvator
Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
That was very sincere. Sometimes I think there just aren't any simple answers to these complications. I think our retro view of sexuality, private space, what is "acceptable" and the fact that most of the world is quite "prude" in my opinion about the whole sex thing doesn't help. I've tried to boil it down to simply loving sex that is not directly harmful or against one's will between age old consenting adults who are free from binds and limitations. So long as one's sex is protected I think I still have way too many phobias about the topic. I especially after the whole child abuse scare, which was for real reasons, we teens had to pay in our healthy sex openness, which wasn't originally evil of our parents if they would have been a bit brighter at acting responsibly.
Like the famous witch saying, And it harm none, do as you will!
All the rest are cultural control rituals, that I'm sure have their function, but are not tied into our genetic nature.
(reply to this comment)
| from George Bush Jr.
Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:42
 (Agree/Disagree?)
___________________________________
Warning!!
These who read this post do so at their own risk! Management will not be held responsible for any injuries to personal beliefs or any loss of faith in your religion and/or government, which may or may not be a good thing.
____________________________________
The steps to freedom:
1.Live life. Love life. More of it, all the time.
2.Take lots of drugs for a year, anything you can get your hands on, and as much as you can afford. QUIT ALL DRUG USE AFTERWARDS
3.Engage in a lot of sex with whoever you come across. Preferably with living humans.
4.If you were born into a religious faith, do something really blasphemous in front of the congregation, ie attend church naked. If they don’t excommunicate you, do something worse next week.
5.Stay awake four days then go to church, preferably a Pentecostal one.(variation, do this on LSD). Learn and observe as much as you can without passing judgement.
6.Break a law(s) of your country at least once a week for a year, see how much respect for authority is left at the end of the year, DO NOT GET CAUGHT.
7.Write and publish something to offend the prevailing religion in your country, as offensive as possible.(if you’re sick and tired of organized religion at this point, write an offensive article about a political party or a government-sponsored charity institution instead)
8.“Convictions cause convicts”, you should have learned that by now.
9.Read communist manifestos and propaganda, then read Mein Kampf. Become active politically for both these schools of thought.
10.Now get a job in a large corporation and try climbing the corporate ladder. Worship money for a year. Then walk into an MD’s office and piss on his prided leather chair, blame it on the company mascot. Resign.
11.Join the Hare Krishnas, then join a manipulative Christian sex cult for two years each. At the end of the two years, repeat point four in both cults and get the police to raid the Christian cult during an orgy involving kiddies.
12.Study hermeticism & Greek and Egyptian mythology.
13. Learn 5 different trades.
14.Live and work in three different continents for 6 months each.
15.Now go back home and find a peaceful office job and work there for five years, think you can?
Hehe..
YOU’RE FUCKED!!(From a sociologists point of view)
Think now about what you consider REAL LIFE? What do you really want in life now??
Don’t have a clue? That’s good, you’re taking the first timid steps towards Enlightenment, enjoy….
A tip: Laugh, laugh a lot, if you haven’t already learned to do that by following the previous exercises , you haven’t learned anything.
“The road to wisdom is on the path of excess”
Real life is only just beginning now…
A final tip: Specialization is for insects.
" A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert A. Heinlein
(reply to this comment)
|  From Joe H
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 14:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
That has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Yeah, go join the Hare Krishnas you stupid moron, that's the some kind of hippy open mindedness that landed your parents in a mind-fucking sex cult. Why don't you get a job and an education and make something of your life instead of spreading your insipid theories that were proved wrong way back in the '70s you dumb wannabe hippie!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from porceleindoll
Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 19:27
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Hmmm, interesting. I actually spent half a day after reading a book (romance novel, one of my favorites), pondering once again my own fears and issues with sex. I realised suddenly that sex does not equal love for me, nor vice-versa. Sex equals something I must do whether I want to or not. Sex equals a job, sex equals a chore, it is simply a part of life. I think being brought up to view sex so lightly and as something you can do with or without an emotion, and if you do it without an emotion then that's an even greater blessing to you, your 'sacrifice' to God, has really and deeply effected (affected??--don't yell at me for grammar!), my present views on sex. I have been trying for a couple years to put these issues aside and go on, but they keep re-appearing in my life, and it gets depressing, I feel guilty, I feel confused, I feel depressed.
(reply to this comment)
| From Joe H
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 14:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
It bothers me that you're so horrified at the realization that "sex does not equal love for [you]." Sex doesn't equal love for a lot of people, and some would argue that it shouldn't. I'm not saying sex isn't really great when you do it with someone you love, but then you've got all these girls who are sexually frustrated cause they haven't found the man they love. Why don't we all just loosen up and enjoy ourselves already? If you're not enjoying sex, maybe you should send your husband to a class or something. A lot of men are lousy in bed. I hope that's not what you're depressed about.
As an aside, it's interesting to hear the person who taught me a lot of what I know about grammar and spelling demanding not to be yelled at for her own spelling mistakes. ;)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From krystine
Friday, October 31, 2003, 03:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally agree with you on this. Too many times when I was young I woke up to see my mom banging a "brother" and vice-versa with my dad. It's hard for me to be faithful and not have commitment issues because I'm so use to sex being given out freely. I don't think I view sex in a slutty derogatory way but to me I view it as a normal act that may or not be connected to love. It does not necessary equal (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Anthony
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 18:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
When I was 19, and still very much in the Family in mind and body, I found myself in a strange situation. J, 23, and his wife T, 20 something, had an arrangement between themselves to “share” the flesh. So J comes up to me one night and says:
Anthony, now is the prefect time to sleep with my wife, she’s a few months pregnant, so you have nothing to worry about. She likes you and you like her.
What a nice guy, that night he was going to sleep with single girl C, and out of cultish love for his wife, wanted to make sure she was not left alone. And later, T also approached me about this matter. We were all good friends, but even amongst friends, there are certain boundaries decent folks don’t cross. Sure I may have been a bit lonely and in need of getting laid, besides, my arms were sore from wacking, but she was MARRIED, and I don’t sleep with married women.
Needless to say, my refusal to go along with this shit did not endear me to most of the home’s members, and the usual “Word” was thrown in my face. As a matter of fact, when the other single SGA girl heard about this, she was furious and stated “I certainly will not sleep with Anthony because he’s proven himself to be selfish and doesn’t abide by the Law of Love.” Whatever! I didn’t need her anyway.
So children, the moral of this story is that not everyone who was raised in the cult embraced its perverse notions, attitudes and practices in regards to love, sex and family ties, either while in the cult or after leaving it. Even as a young kid I never accepted FFing or sharing. My biggest fear was that my parents would divorce because many of my friends would come over to our home, each time with a new set of parents. “Oh, the Lord showed us to get together” was the oft heard excuse.
Sure, the environment in which you grow up in is sure to influence you to a certain extent, some more than others, but “normal” human beings are still able to make choices and think. And compare consequences. It’s pretty lame to blame the cult for psycho-slutishness: brothers sleeping with each others’ wives, sisters sleeping together, these are choices perverts make and seek to blame others for their proclivities. To borrow a quote from the Bible, “it is confusion in the camp” and very campy.
Of course it may be biologically imprinted in our inner animals to sleep around, but the whole point of becoming what Nietzsche called the Ubermensch is to rise above our the animal state of our brute ancestors and attain near human perfection.
And now I quote from the band Slipknot, “You are wrong, fucked and overrated, I think I’m gonna be sick....”
And now to quote myself, “Like Pontius Pilate, I was my hands of your filth. I am clean.”
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Blondie_B78
Sunday, November 02, 2003, 14:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Totally relate to the "duty" aspect and that you can feel sex is something your spouse expects from you. Sex is great but, as a young mom, you do a lot of juggling and sometimes just don't have the energy for sex but would rather roll over and go to sleep... . My hubby, on the other hand, could have just run a marathon, be half dead and would still be showing (what I consider to be) an abnormal amount of interest... :-)
I used to stress, thinking I wasn't being a good little wife if I ever "denied" him and that if I didn't give him enough sex (enough for him that is) he would end up looking elsewhere etc. I think those mindsets are largely due to the "Word" from Berg:
- Women are there to service men. To be a "helpmeet". :-)
- To deny your husband is selfishness. If you don't fork out enough your man is justified in looking elsewhere to have his "needs" met.
- Men need more sex than women and women just need to "get over themselves" and yeild.
I agree that for a women (or man for that matter) to never have any sexual desire for her spouse would suggest a problem. Marriage is a partnership though and the man needs to understand and accomodate his womans needs too - like the need to be left alone occasionally. :-)
My husband and I are quite open about these kind of things and, although we don't have everything ironed out yet, we try to recognise that we are different and work around each others sexual preferences. BTW, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with you or your hubby or that your situation is the same as mine. Just my 2 cents....
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| | From Joe H
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 19:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
First let me say that I'm not a woman, so I can't make any assumptions, but I want to ask: is it really such a chore? Most men come in less than 5 minutes! This is a sincere question. Really, why do you see it as such a chore? (Maybe I should discuss this with my ex who thought once a day was enough)
On the other hand, do you ever stop to think about how much work it is to satisfy a woman? Do you hear men complaining about how much sex women demand? Maybe we're not as selfish as you claim.(reply to this comment) |
| | From katrim4
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 17:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay Joe, think of it like this. What if your girlfriend wanted to get her back massaged for 5 min every night but only thought of returning the favor every once in a while. For sure you would go along with it at first because hey, it's only 5 min and it makes her happy. Besides, you don't really "need" the back massage every night and your relationship is after all about more than just those 5 minutes. But then let's suppose that you decided one night that you were tired and didn't feel like giving her a massage and felt that she would understand. She did understand, the first time, but when it happened again she threw a little fit. Nothing big mind you. Just rolling over, making little comments here and there. Then pretty soon she begins aksing you in a million different ways over and over for a back massage......"please, it will only take 5 minutes" so you do, you give in and you give her a massage just so she'll shut up and let you go to sleep. I bet you'd start thinking of it as a chore after a while. And that's just a back massage, not even invasive.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 18:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok I see your point. But here's a another metaphor:
You're a regular guy who likes to eat dinner. You like to eat dinner with your wife because it's much more enjoyable that way. But your wife doesn't believe in heating anything up in the microwave, and would never hear of fast food. No, your wife will only eat at the fancy french restaurant on the other side of town. So every time the two of you want to have dinner you have to start up the car, drive across town, look for a parking space, spend half an hour gently stroking the menu before you can order, then wait another half hour for your food to arrive.
Do you get the picture? Eventually the man just starts making his own dinner or he finds a cheap and easy restaurant up the street. I speak from experience.
So what's the answer? I'm sure some of you are way ahead of me on this one, because it's obviously COMPROMISE. Give the guy his "back massage" once a day and he'll give you your "fancy dinner" when you need it. I think we can all agree that satisfying a woman is a lot of work without me going into any graphic detail about neck cramps and what have you. If he's not holding up his half of the bargain, by all means, confront him, make him take a class, or fucking dump him already! There are 3 billion men in this world, yet women consistently latch on to losers and refuse to let go!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Blondie_B78
Thursday, November 06, 2003, 03:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey, I'm all for "fastfood". When you have a couple of little kids at times that's all you can manage. My hubby is the kind of guy who takes great pride in giving it as good as he gets it. I have absolutely no complaints there but when I'm exhausted a sexual marathon is the last thing on my mind. 5 or 10 minutes wouldn't be a problem. It can be hard to get your man to understand that while you are happy to oblige him, you want to get to sleep asap and are not interested in trying out pgs. 30-45 of the illustrated Kama Sutra. Like you have already mentioned, it's all about compromise and finding ways that enable both of you to get what you want.(reply to this comment) |
| | From katrim4
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 19:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Obviously compromise is the solution. But I'd be willing to bet that most women (and I'm really just talking about those that are married and/or have shared households) would rather a guy take out the trash, take care of the baby, cook dinner, defrost the freezer, etc. without being asked than have a guy that is just willing to spend an extra 20 minutes in bed once a week.
I agree with Jules though, buy a vibrator and use it instead of cooking dinner one night. :-)(reply to this comment) |
| | From katrim4
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 19:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
While I'm on this subject, I wonder if there is something like the "madonna/whore" syndrome that happens with women. It's ususally used to describe what happens when a man cannot or will not have sex with a woman that is either pregnant with or has had his child. I've never really understood it, but it has been a subject of discussion recently with the Kobe case.
I wonder though if there is something to describe women that pretty much take care of their husbands/boyfriends and then are not sexually attracted to them, this being the result of filling the same or similar role that a mother does for her children.
I can't recall ever hearing of anything like this but have often wondered if it has been studied or addressed by professionals. Anyone know?
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| | | | | From Jules
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 19:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
I seem to remember this particular metaphor almost word for word from one of the Family's publications. (Perhaps it was something they "borrowed" from a real author).
What is more than a little shocking about what you've just said is the demanding of sex from someone one supposedly cares for. Perhaps this is a belief that people have outside of the Family (although I have personally never come across it anywhere else) but I think it's absurd to say that sex is a "need" for men, on the same level as food and water. I don't believe sex is something anyone has a right to demand, no matter how their partner feels, but it is supposed to be an expression of love or sexual desire. That doesn't mean it has to be a tantric 3 hour experience everytime or even at all, but I really think there should be mutual desire and respect for the other person's body and wishes.
While you didn't say this, I'm reminded of some "sex education" classes I had the unfortunate experience of sitting through in the Family where we were taught that "of course no means no, but if you actually say no, you're just being selfish and wrong. If you deny a man you will force him to go elsewhere or perhaps because of your selfishness you may eventually make the poor guy rape you." (reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 22:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Joe, think about this. A man wants you (I mean you personally). Is it such a chore? Come on, 5 minutes would do it. Close your eyes and think of England, right? You mean you don't want to blow this man? Goodness, you sure are sexually inhibited. That's very selfish of you Joe. It's not that big of a deal. Why do you need to feel love or any attachment? Porn stars do this all the time and they have great sex lives, right.
Sometimes people feel as unattracted to their partner as you do to a man.
To simplify it to a Dr. Phil level, men are visual. When you wind them up that way, it really only takes 5 minutes. Women are emotional. Romance them, heat the fire and it can actually only take 5 minutes there. Yes, men are selfish. It’s not totally their fault, it’s the anatomy.
PD, I recommend a vibrator. Your husband will feel threatened at first and will be uncomfortable using it, but he’ll get over it. Women can be every bit as sexual as men and if you were as assured of a climax every time as he is, things might change.
One other thing, and despite the grief this is sure to bring to me, I have to say this. Does no one else notice the gender divide lately? Why is it that the men have been all “get over it already, quit whining about the abuse” while women are trying to talk about what happened to them. I am working on some theories right now, but I think that perhaps that girls and boys in the Family didn’t have the chance to develop a male or female identity, or to even know what that was. Competition is the best word I can think of to define what the dynamic between us was and apart from maternal/paternal instincts for people we sympathise with, things like basic protectiveness just seem to be missing. Let's face the facts, it was obviously different, because we are different genders, and this was a highly sexualised enviornment, where gender did play a key role. It’s more complex than this, and when I get the chance to think it all through I want to express this a bit more clearly. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Benz
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 23:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Great one Jules,
I’m rating this one right along side the top ten “Woman’s Day” articles of all time, among which include:
1). Ways to convince him you really do have a headache.
2). Conclusive list of imaginary lovers to guarantee a successful orgasm.
3). Ways to tell yourself you love the guy who beats you each evening.
4). Top ten recommended ways to avoid a pre-nup.
5). Ways to get him to pay for your credit card and still be a gang banging porn star.
Why is it that only you could come up with something so ridiculous as “girls and boys in the Family didn’t have the chance to develop a male or female identity, or to even know what that was”. – If you’re saying what I think your saying, us guys must all think we’re girls or perhaps we are all at differing stages of exiting the proverbial closet. – What a load of queer theory rubbish.
What I will agree to is that ex Family girls in general try to domineer and dictate to men, males, boys etc, and have no qualms about deceiving for personal gain or portraying deceptive intentions (thankfully this doesn’t bother me as I will not allow one to come near my social circle).
I believe that mutual distrust and deceptive behavioural attitudes are the main reason for a lack of respect for the opposite gender (note this only applies to girls from TF), and NOT because of some gender identity crises (geez what a contrived long shot, put that in the basket with your dyslexia theory).
It’s all about what people actually want out of relationships (which I believe is the direct result of what is put in), and not settling for anything less, unless like most current and ex fam’s all you seem to want is to satisfy a craving for diversity whilst accepting cheap substitutes for real relationships.
Well, it’s time for Sarafina & her family to vote this off to the trailer park, along with everything else their sense of humour of a five year old can’t pronounce properly.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Tim R
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 02:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Seriously, Jules must have touched a real hot button with the gender identity issue to bring on all this chest-thumping.
Not having developed a "male identity" means you're mentally still a boy, not that you're gay. (For a good book that deals with this topic read: "Fight Club" by Chuck Palahniuk.)
For the record, the Family didn't allow boys to have much of a male identity at all; they suppressed competitive sports, bodybuilding and wrestling. They also controlled our access to sex, scheduling and matchmaking as the shepherds saw fit, instead of letting us develop our own "Mojo", so to speak.
Do you remember the whole "Tony" series?
How about having to run to the shepherd and ask for help and prayer every time the Devil put a "Bad thought" in your head?
Do you remember having to go and ask the shepherds if you wanted to "date" someone, and having to ask for an assigned time, and a room to do it in? Talk about emasculation! (Not to mention the severe lack of decent adult male role-models.) (reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Thursday, November 06, 2003, 20:08
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Well put Tim,
I certainly would have agreed had Jules admitted that Family girls actively try to emasculate men, and do so far more aggressively so than your ordinary woman would seem to do.
Stranger still they seem to assume an emasculation "victory" even when it has not actually occurred, but merely because it seems that way to them due to their altered perception of reality caused in part by concepts of conversion/ proselyting = success (and methods of doing so as being morally acceptable).
The book you refer to looks interesting.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From pharmaboy
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 08:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
This explains the sexual views of TF, it's spot on!
Sex - Peter Carroll
A large proportion of all the cults throughout history have shared one particular characteristic. They have been led by a charismatic man able to persuade women to freely dispense sexual favours to ther men. When one begins to look, this feature is startlingly common to many ancient cults, monotheistic schismatic sects and modern esoteric groups. Many, if not the majority of adepts past and present were, or are, whoremasters. The mechanism is quite simple, pay the woman in the coinage of spirituality to service the men who repay you with adulation and accept your teachings as a side effect. The adulation from the men then increases your charisma with the women creating a positive feedback loop. It can be a nice little earner until old age or a police raid catches up with the enterprise. The other danger is of course that the women, and eventually the men, may come to feel that constant changes of partners work against their longer term interests of emotional security and reproduction. The turnover in such cults can thus be high, with young adults constantly replacing those approaching early middle age.
Few religions or cults lack a sexual teaching, for any teaching provides a powerful level of control. The vast majority of the more durable and established religions trade on a suppression of so called free love. This pays considerable dividends too. Women's position becomes more secure, and men know who their children are. Naturally adultery and prostitution flourish in such conditions because some people always want a little more than lifelong monogamy has to offer. So it's quite true that brothels are built with the bricks of religion. Indirectly so with conventional religions, directly so with many cults.
All this begs the question of why it is that people have such an appetite for wanting to be told what to do with their sexuality. Why do people have to seek esoteric and metaphysical justification for what they want to do? Why is it so easy to make a living selling water by the river?
The answer, it appears, is that human sexuality has some built in dissatisfaction function of evolutionary origin. Our sexual behaviour is partly controlled by genetics. Those genes most likely to survive and prosper are those that in the female encourage the permanent capture of the most powerful male available and occasional liaisons (clandestine) with any more powerful male that may be temporarily available. Whereas in the male, the genes most likely to prosper are those encouraging the impregnation of as large a number of females as he can support, plus perhaps a few on the sly that other men are supporting. It is interesting to note that only in the human female is oestrous concealed. In all other mammals the fertile time is made abundantly obvious. This appears to have evolved to allow, paradoxically both adultery and increased pair bonding through sex at times when it is reproductively useless. The economic basis of any particular society will usually supply some pressure in favour of a particular type of sexuality and this pressure will be codified as morality which will inevitably conflict with biological pressures. Celibacy is unsatisfactory, Masturbation is unsatisfactory, Monogamy is unsatisfactory, Adultery is unsatisfactory, Polygamy and Polyandry is unsatisfactory and presumably Homosexuality is unsatisfactory, if the renetic merry-go-round of partner exchanges in that discipline is anything to go by.
Nothing in the spectrum of possible sexualities provides a perfect long term solution, but this is the price we pay for occupying the pinnacle of mammalian evolution. So much of our art, culture, politics and technology arises precisely out of our sexual yearnings, fears, desires and dissatisfactions. A society sexually at peace with itself would present a very dull spectacle indeed. It is generally if not invariably tha case that personal creativity and achievement are directly proportional to personal sexual turmoil. This is actually one of the major but often unrecognised techniques of sex magic. Inspire yourself with maximum sexual turmoil and confusion if you really want to find out what you are capable of in other fields. A tempestuous sex life is not a side effect of being a great artist for example. Rather it is the art which is the side effect of a tempestuous sex life. A fanatical religion does not create the suppression of celibacy. It is the tensions of celibacy which create a fanatical religion. Homosexuality is not a side effect of barracks life amongst elite suicide shock troops. Homosexuality creates elite suicide shock troops in the first place.
The Muse, the hypothetical source of inspiration, usually pictured in sexual terms, is the Muse only when one's relationship to her is unstable. Every possible moral pronouncement on sexual behaviour has doubtless been given a million times before, and it would be unseemly for a Chaoist to re-emphasise any of it. However, one thing seems reasonably certain. Any form of sexuality eventually invokes the whole gamut of ecstasy, self-disgust, fear, delight, boredom, anger, love, jealousy, rafe, self-pity, elation and confusion.It is these things which make us human and occasionally superhuman. To attempt to transcend them is to make oneself less than human, not more. Intensity of experience is the key to really being alive and given the choice I'd rather do it through love than war any day.
The projection of Sexual Glamour for the purposes of attracting others depends on far more than simple physical appearance. Some of the most conventually pretty people lack it entirely, whilst some of the plainest enjoy its benefits to the limit.
To be attractive to another person one must offer them something which is a reflection of part of their self. If the offer becomes reciprocal then it can lead to that sense of completion which is most readily celebrated by physical intimacy. In most cultures it is conventional for the male to display a tough public exterior and for the female to display a softer persona, yet in a sexual encounter each will seek to reveal their concealed factors. The male will seek to show that he can be compassionate and valnerable as well as powerful, whilst the female seeks to display inner strength behind the outward signs and signals of passive receptivity. Incomplete personalities such as those which are machismo to the core, or consist of the polar opposite of this, are never sexually attractive to anyone except in the most transient sense.
Thus the philosophers of love have come to identify a certain androgyny in either sex as an important component of attraction. Some have taken the poetic license to express the quaint ideal that the male has a femal soul and the female a male one. This reflects the truism that to be attractive to others you must first become attracted to yourself. A few hours spent practising being attractive in front of a mirror is a valuable exercise. If you cannot get mildly excited about yourself, then don't expect anyone else to get wildly excited.
Sexual magic is traditionally associated with the colours of purple (for passion) and silver (for the moon). However, the effectiveness of black clothing as either a sexual or an anti-sexual signal, depending on the style and cut, shows that black is in a sense the secret colour of sex, reflecting the biological and psychological relationship between sex and death. (reply to this comment) |
| | From geo
Thursday, November 06, 2003, 21:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
i agree with everything expect this quote "Homosexuality creates elite suicide shock troops in the first place"
though that may have been true in some historical context such as greek roman and asain armies it isnt true in the least to today special units. in any case the historical view would have to be weighed against the culture and sexual norms which those armies where a part of. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From a thought
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 00:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, when Benz says "ex Family girls in general try to domineer and dictate to men, males, boys etc," this sounds to me like the controlling, hands-on intrusiveness of most people in the Family, of whatever gender. It was exacerbated by the lack of boundaries from living such close quarters in an economy of shiftlessness, and in a sex-act-fixated environment, no less. Since I was only in the Family as a minor, I experienced the heavy-handed micro-management on the receiving end. But I can see how when SGs got older they would be the same (or worse because that's the only mode they knew). I can't imagine Sgs as TF shepherds! What a nightmare. I still find myself marveling once in a while at the latitude my bosses give "little old me" and the independence that I am expected to display.
Two more comments on Benz' statement that ex Family girls in general also "have no qualms about deceiving for personal gain or portraying deceptive intentions." First: well hey, I guess they made it to devotions on "Deceivers yet True" day, or went witnessing or provisioning, had to testify in court or in the media for the Family, or had to write OHRs!
Second, I'll bet that Benz' opinion is affected by that fact that, since Benz obviously is very straight (and I don't mean that as an insult, Benz), he would not come accross the same kind of opportunities for interactions with men as he may have experienced with women, so he would see this 1/2 of the picture but not the other. All I know is the person I know who is the most backstabbing, lying, cheating thief is a male SG who has "no qualms about deceiving for personal gain" or falsely portraying his intentions (not "portraying deceptive intentions," because the last thing he wants to do is seem less than warm and the swellest, like good old "sincere" TF). However, there are some male SGs who I love more than life itself.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Benz
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 00:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps alot of things Jules.
Merely because I think what you've said is a lot of nonsense doesn't also mean I'm upset (in fact I'm sitting here laughing my A$$ off).- I just think you tell yourself a lot of shit to make yourself feel better & I just happen to notice.
BTW, excuse me for having barged in on your conversation.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From sarafina
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 22:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry to butt in again...but since my name is being mentioned again! I have to just ask..Where do you exactly get this "reserved opinion " of my character? The same place you get your rendition of "The mans prayer/womans prayer?" That being said, lets not point fingers at "copy pasting." I have never met nor talked w/ you before (other then those last few exchanges) and you really have nothing to base your opinions on other then what I have said to you. Unless your the kind of person who forms opinions by "copy pasting" others. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Joe H
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 22:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
" Sometimes people feel as unattracted to their partner as you do to a man. " That's pretty fucking weird and I wish said "people" the best of luck with all of that. Jesus if you're so unattracted to the person then why the hell are you with them? That being said, my question was sincere; can someone give me a real sincere answer?
What you said about the vibrator was right on.
But this "Competition is the best word I can think of to define what the dynamic between us was " is another example of cult kids thinking their upbringing was so unique. What do you think the dynamic is between regular kids? They're extremely competitive!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 23:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Joe, I don't think anyone kids themselves that the outside world is a paradise and everyone else apart from those raised in the Family had a perfect upbringing. Hello, we all live here too. Boys typically are competetive among other boys and girls with other girls. What is strange is when males feel threatened by female experiences. I really don't think that is typical. Usually men feel angered and protective regarding women being hurt. I don't have the time right now to present my theory properly, but there is an unusually high level of defensiveness to these sorts of things among some SG males.
People are with their partners for all kinds of reasons. Lots of people got married in the Family. Some people had children before they had the chance to evaluate their relationship properly. Many women didn't feel they had any skills that would make them financially independent, and so are dependent on their partners. Before you bash this statement, in the Family I lived with a certain young man who was about the same age as me. In our home I did childcare and cooking, while he worked with computers and multimedia equipment. He is very bright, but I don't think I am an idiot either. I left and became a stripper. He left and became a programmer with an $100,000 + job. I have worked my way through to learn the same skills he has now, so it's not a matter of intelligence, but the opportunities we had to learn certain skills were definitely different. That lack of options made me feel locked out of many different choices.
Many of my siblings have attended/are attending high school and have the world at their feet. I am so proud of them and happy they have choices I did not. It also means a great deal to me that while they may not ever fully understand, they are proud of me too. Although I am also proud of what I have managed to do and am doing, it's not what I dreamed of, or could have done. Their support means so much to me, and I value the fact that they are there for me just as I am for them. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Anthony
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 16:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
“But there is an unusually high level of defensiveness to these sorts of things among some SG males.”
Yeah right, so when I , a straight male, empathize and feel angered and protective regarding women being hurt, as demonstrated by my lyrical interpretation of a certain girl’s sufferings, I get accused of taking ownership of someone else’s experience and cheaping it.
Well, I guess some men just can never do right by women and effeminate men!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 19:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh come on Ant, do you really think the best way to empathise with someone is to write a song about their experience?
If I have a crappy day at work and come home to a lovely rendition of something like:
"Bugs are in her code,
Her computer's in safe mode,
The network's always down,
PC support is never around
The server up and crashed,
the database is trashed,
the backups all have failed,
and the developers have bailed"
I'm not sure I would see that as very empathic. (Granted, you have a bit more talent with lyrics than me). It's not my story though, and I was just expressing my opinion. What matters is how VeryLonelyGirl feels about it. Sarah McLachlan's Angel was written for River Phoenix after his death, so perhaps I am wrong about this. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Jules
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 19:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Did you just call my beautiful poem cheesy? I'm crushed, really. :'(
Actually I was trying to be funny (facetious?) and as usual, only I am amused at myself. I wasn't trying to disparage what you wrote or be frivolous about VLG's account.
Ant, I think you are a very decent, intelligent, talented (and extremely hot) young man. I have a lot of respect for you. It was just my opinion, and I may be completely wrong. I don't really understand artists very well. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Joe H
Tuesday, November 04, 2003, 22:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
and furthermore "didn't have a chance to develop a male and female identity"? Yeah, the family was REAL laid back about not pushing gender roles on anybody. The girls were allowed to be as manly and butch as they wanted to be, Berg encouraged them to cut their hair and wear pants, and he never ever let them take care of the toddlers, that was for the guys, who were also much less likely to be doing menial labor and driving around town witnessing because they "never formed a male identity" Hahahahahaha give me a break!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From married with a sex life
Saturday, November 01, 2003, 07:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
That wouldn't describe our relationship...we still have fun, don't "expect" it from each other, and it's still getting better. Not to say that other marriages are the same, that's just us. I have read, though, that it isn't really a healthy sign in a marriage, relationship or even a person if they view sex as a "duty" or even to be expecting it from someone else, you know, that would mean there are obviously some issues in one way or another. (As the original article was pointing out.) (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From cyborcosmic
Saturday, November 01, 2003, 21:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey Porceleindoll, I have always related to your articles and I want to say something to you about sex, plus to everyone else who has issues in this area of their lives
well, its like this: you first have to put everyone else aside and you have to connect with your own sexual being and just see how free it is, are you having sex for reasons other than pure release and enjoyment?
If yes then you need to find why you are feeling so little or feeling so many emotions at once(like fear or the need to please others) You need to really connect with your true emotions about sex, nutity, and everything else. Do you feel comfortable enough to let go in bed or do you hold back? Do you feel comfortable with subjects like masterbation or does it make you relate to TF?
Just trust whatever comes up and find out what you are really like in bed, if someone is with you or not. It's your body and you need to face all thouse judgements about sex before you can relax into it, I found a lot of judgements for so called ' slutty women' which are just not real. I mean WHO CARES if they can let go, you should be able to let go too with anyone, anytime! of course with someone you chose!(reply to this comment) |
| | From porceleindoll
Wednesday, November 05, 2003, 21:07
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's not that the sex is bad or I never have an orgasm, the act of sex is fine, (and thanks Jules for the vibrator suggestion :)). But the problems lie deep down emotionally, the years of spiritual, mental and emotional twists being put on sex, love, your body. I feel as if I didn't get a chance to grow into it all naturally, as you would from a child to an adult, with the little experimentations in childhood onto the more serious stuff in teen years, and whatever sexual steps a person goes through these days. I was fully aware of sex and how it worked and what happened when I was 4. I was reading the red book and FFing letters when I was 6,7 and 8. I began to realise that these really twisted my whole attitude towards sex. Then, in later years we had the whole Flirty little teen thingy, How do you measure love, and all those letters about giving your body because God expected it of you, the girl crucified on a cross in the bed and the FFing stuff. For an adult who has already discovered their sexuality, they may be able to emotionally balance all this in their lives, but for a child, and then young teen, who has yet to experience and discover love and sex, it was just very twisted and left me with many fears and inhibitions.
FFing wasn't abolished until I was 17, so I was fully prepared that on my 18th birthday I was going to begin the ministry. Heaven's Girl showed me that in the very near future (probably around 1993 or thereafter) I would probably have to give my body to some unknown person in order to show God's love. These are just a couple, The Girl Who Wouldn't of course taught me that if I didn't want to give my body to someone 'in need' then I would never mature as a woman in the spirit.
I married my husband in the Family and he is a fantastic guy. But most of our arguements have been over sex. Through the years though we have come to understand each other more, and he understands the fears, or the issues that I have, and I understand that for him it is many times purely a physical body need, whereas for me it is more of an emotional ordeal.
I only had sex with 2 men in the Family whom I didn't have any physical attraction for. I was sincerely trying to live up to the law of love and give of myself for them. I spent the entire time crying, and trying to hide it, and walked away very full of guilt, confusion, anger and resentment. With noone to really talk these issues out with, the feelings became very deep-rooted and have definitely effected my sex relationship with my husband. I have come to realise though that once I begin talking about things, I am able to figure it out and put things in their places and grow from the experience, which is the only reason I brought it up here, cause it is time for me to begin facing the issues again.
I am shy too about sex and my body, and I could blame this on the Family as well. I got in trouble for wearing a bra, for not wearing a bra, for being dressed too skimpy, for not dressing light enough, for being partial in affection, for not being affectionate enough. I got in trouble once for dancing too worldly, for wearing makeup, for trying to look a bit nicer than the norm. I am not a person who has a great natural beauty, so a little makeup really helps. But through those teen years with noone to guide you but everyone correcting you, well, yes, it really does much to leave you confused about who you really are.
As for your question about having sex for release and pure enjoyment, generally, no. I feel that if I could get away from sex for awhile and get back in touch with myself, then perhaps I could begin to enjoy it for those reasons, but it just isn't possible, I do love my husband, and he is a wonderful person, and I feel that it is a very small price to give him that time, to make him feel loved compared to the support and help and love that he gives me. I just wish I could get past the issue though.
It's really not that easy to just walk out on someone, or to say "Look, don't touch me for the next 6 months, don't put any demands on me, but don't think I don't love you!" When I balance out my own small issues vs. my family, my husband, my kids, of course my family wins out. Anyway, maybe it doesn't make any sense, it's just what I've been thinking about for the past week. Thanks for your advice though, hearing opinions really helps me to see other sides and considerations.(reply to this comment) |
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