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Getting Through : Home
Sexual Currency, Commodification of the Body and Exchange. | from xhrisl - Wednesday, May 26, 2004
accessed 2905 times To what extent does our upbringing affect our perceptions of self and sexuality? Being raised in a highly sexualized environment such as that of the Family brings to bear the question of how great an effect the ‘nurture’ argument bears on certain sexual behaviors and encompasses a wide range of possibility for latent social perceptions and overt behaviors with regard to healthy sexuality for those of us who have left.
That psychosocial sexual coding for behaviors, attitudes and sexual morals is a function of normal socialization within any society, and that such duties fall upon the family and are enforced through institutions of religious authority and the state is without doubt. Also, without doubt is the reality that a differential standard of measurement is for us the quantitative experience of our formative years. As such I was wondering in what manner has this psychosocial sexualization process affected the majority of those of us who have left.
While I hesitate to generalize my own experiences and those of other SGA’s, it has nonetheless come to my attention that at least within my own associations (predominately with older SGA’s---those of us in our late 20’s and early 30’s who experienced adolescence within a highly sexualized period of Family history) the use of sexuality as currency seems an underlying theme. Obviously there are many aspects, which should be considered when evaluating whether a particular variable should be considered causal or at least contributory to a particular behavior. However, I am going to narrow the playing field down to what I consider the most pertinent factors with regard to the question of whether or not others have noticed any such correlation.
My assertion is that resultant of the Family upbringing the perceptions many of us hold regarding sexuality do/may vary significantly from the cultural norms of our new lifestyles and as such may account for some of the difficulty many find in securing and maintaining meaningful relationships. Hypothesized factors contributing to this:
· Highly sexualized environment
To clarify while the nature of sexualized environment may of itself not be harmful to children contingent upon the degree, comprehension and explanation of natural sexuality TF nonetheless took this to the extreme.
· Idealized body images (the comix were always filled with idealized buxom women and muscular men).
Interestingly enough TF while promoting certain forms of physical beauty nonetheless disempowered both women and men from access to attaining those standards. While at the same time using the ‘handicap of natural ability’ as a double-edged sword to keep those who did posses physical beauty or talent and intelligence from realizing their full potential.
· A significant amount of sexual misconduct against minors.
The significant amount of sexual misconduct against minors goes without saying with regard to the negative consequences, which have been suffered. While a sexually open environment with regard to honesty and factual information regarding sexuality is important when it comes to grounding a child or adolescent in the facts and mechanics of sexual reproduction (with information given appropriate to their age and comprehension level) initiation of a minor into adult sexuality is not.
· The subjection and objectification of women (as evidenced in FFing, a point which a very articulate acquaintance of mine pointed out was all about male dominance of other males through the utilization of women as pawns).
In TF particularly under Berg, women were second-class citizens. Forget all the hype of ‘equality in Christ’ with regard to spiritual gifts---when it came to the domestic sphere a woman’s place was in the home, and pleasing her husband (and many a lonely brother, fish, or lost soul) only after these others and her children did her needs come into consideration.
· An underlying homosexual current:
1.) As exemplified in the practice of FFing wherein Berg stated that the ‘fish’ that slept with the ‘FFer’s’ were in essence sleeping with himself by proxy---a behavior he was unwilling to engage in as a means of asserting dominance.
2.) The chauvinistic ideology of female/female sexual relations as good and male/male sexual relations as degenerative.
The underlying homosexual current interestingly enough has begun to curve away from female centered homosexuality in recent years with the advent of Berg’s demise and Zerby’s rise to power. As such one might go so far as to reinterpret the “Loving Jesus” revolution to be an outcropping of male homoeroticism in the case of male members ‘becoming female in spirit’ during loving Jesus sessions. Is this a quaint adaptation of feminine perspective and role reversal?
· An apocalyptic world outlook leading to a hedonistic pursuit of pleasure principle.
Aside from issues of sexuality and perhaps even more important than issues regarding sexuality was the belief in the inescapable demise of the world, not just the system, but also the assured collapse of all of our family structures and friendships. A future without a future.
These factors I contend have affected the manner in which many of us either consciously or unconsciously view ourselves or relate to our significant others upon leaving the group. I believe that these circumstances have the potential bring about negative consequences if not understood. An example of this theory in practice would explain why as both men and women many of us are unsatisfied with our own body image or have an overwhelming desire for perfection. This can be explained quite logically by the obsession many of us hold with youth and beauty. Despite the prevailing cultural norms and obsession in a world obsessed with physical perfection it has been pointed out to me that many of us exer’s seem to have an even greater obsession with perfection than is found among many ‘worldly’ people. It is an observation that has been noticed by some of the women on this site and seems to affect male exer’s to a larger extent than their male counter parts within regular society---I have observed here at Movingon the same preoccupation seems to occupy many women. Nevertheless, is it so strange considering that many of us were never lead to believe that we would live past 20? Furthermore, in a culture such as TF which was highly sexualized and wherein nothing was your own---save only to a small extent whatever part of your body one could keep to oneself, is it hard to imagine why one would not try to protect and maintain the only possession one knew they would not eventually be forced to abandon in some move or purge? Lastly, having few or no marketable skills is it any wonder that so many of us have used our bodies as economic commodities upon leaving the group.
If we learned anything from our upbringing it was how to use sexuality as a tool, a weapon, and a currency…in that we are no better or worse than prostitutes and like them we have used only those tools which were available to us to achieve our goals---namely survival. There is no fault or shame in either, only a danger in that our upbringing predisposes many of us to sell ourselves short in the process of seeking validation from others.
I am very interested in responses and opinions of those who are on this site and look forward to your feedback. Until such time I will continue to thank providence for the wonderful age we live in---wherein the availability of cosmetic surgery, lasic laser eye surgery, Rogaine, micro-hair grafting, Botox, cosmetic dentistry, breast augmentation, Viagra, and Cialis insure that provided I spend enough money and time at the gym I will be assured the validation I seek. |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from jolifam77
Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 20:42
 (Agree/Disagree?)
After reading this article and a few posts, I have to say, I'm just tired. Tired of all the blah blah. Were we abused? how were we abused? were we abused more than the average system kid? How does our abuse rate on a global scale, i.e. compared to kids growing up in third world countries? is it racist to expect that we should be compared only to our peers who grew up in first world countries? Is it wrong to be racist? Is it wrong to commit suicide? If my parents neglected me on a scale about on par with the worst of trailer trash familes, then why do I not hate their guts as much as some system kids hate their parents? At the same time why don't I love them and want to be with them on thanksgiving? Why am I so indifferent? The answer? It doesn't matter. dust to dust. there's no use speculating. just go out and do whatever you want with this short life, cuz it'll soon be over. There's no after life. There's no hope. I urge you to put on your glasses and take a look at all the pathetic souls riding the metro. most are old and ugly. there's the occasional hotty, but you know she's just a ho. So get over it, grab a beer, be merry. I'm going to do whatever I feel like and if that's sit in my room and sulk for the rest of my life so be it. tomorrow we die. cheers.
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| | | | from ack
Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Instead of blaming TF for your head spinning scholastic achievements, (which this article doesn't show), if I were you I would blame them for the fact that you never really knew your brother.
I'm not sure what TF told you about secular life, but people with ordinary parents don't tend to wind up in these vague "institution" places, and I think you'll notice (if you bother to open your eyes) that there are plenty of custody battles plaguing TF's history. Just in case you weren't aware of it, you are in fact part of an intitution right now. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=institution
As far as the pill guzzling goes, maybe a little bit of that might have helped your brother? I wouldn't presume to know what his treatment entailed, but I'm quite familiar with TF healing practices. Same goes for your little sister. Pills obviously aren't a cure all, but the're a far cry from prayer. Timely surgery and chemiotherapy can sometimes be very effective when dealing with cancer.
Let me ask you a question, what is so wonderful about a lifestyle that impedes you from knowing your brother, denies regular contact with both your parents, causes your brother to be accurately diagnosed barely four months before his death, leaves your pneumonia to be cured by the grace of god, and forces you to cram a whole childhood worth of learning into four years? (Pardon the run on sentence). Not to mention leaving you traumatized at the very mention of your name.
And you mentioned anti-depressants? Are you familiar with the concept of association? Why is that the first thing you allude to? Maybe you're depressed and your subconcious mind is trying to tell you something.
I've also noticed that brain diseases seem to be prevalent in your family. TF is staunchly against stem cell research, which is something that could wind up helping victims of palsy as well as a slew of other maladies.
But maybe I'm wrong in all of this, and your biggest problem is weather or not you get to swing at the same time as your sister. (At the age of nineteen?).
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| | | | from ack
Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 16:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I noticed that too.
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| from Greensack
Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 16:12
(Agree/Disagree?)
The original verse was never in english, so how do you know what word carried the emphasis?
BTW my imaginary friend is better than yours! So there!
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| from ack
Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 16:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's still amazing to me how these cult people will defend something far beyond it's having been proven wrong. They will actually concoct the oddest train of logic in order to retain their delusion.
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| from cyborcosmic
Friday, June 25, 2004 - 03:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
To what extent does our upbringing affect our perceptions of self and sexuality?
Being raised in the highly sexualized environment of The Family taught me to use sex to achieve the level of closeness I so desperately needed as a child. As a child, I understood one thing very clearly: Sex=Love! The reason for this psychological impression is obvious; The COG had many sex doctrines, which all of you are aware of. These 'spiritual teachings' of Berg were rejected on one level, I felt uncomfortable of the idea of having sex; but on the other hand it was a way of getting the attention and power I desired. Without displaying overt sexual behavior in The Family you were not accepted, even worse, you were to blame. There was definitely something 'not right' or 'ungodly' about you! Being chastised so many times for just wanting to be a child, I initiated myself into adulthood like the rest of you. (Didn't Berg call children 'little adults'?)
You were wondering in what manner this psychosocial sexualization has affected ex-members. If you look at my current social perceptions towards sex I am struggling to understand (or better yet, to unlearn) these destructive tendencies. My perception of social roles is distorted. Because of the generalizations in The Family, I see the male sex as dominant and merely interested in sex from a female. The female roles I adopted were that women should please their man, avoid conflict (perhaps out of fear of beatings) and not be needy.
Sex was not to be done out of pleasure, but out of need. Since females were not supposed to be needy, the male had the power to decide when and where.
By exchange I suppose you mean the interchange of sex for some form of currency. I began (unconsciously) to use sex as a tool. It started at the age of three or four with flaunting and flirting with my age group. Being alluring and desirable became important. After that, being seductive. For my whole live, I have tried hard to be likeable to others, to be accepted by friends. At this moment I am actually realizing where it began. I guess that the first few years shape your motivations. My motivation was shaped by fear of rejection (or fear of 'the rod', disciplinary action, chastisement, beatings ...etc) I began using sexual projection as a tool to get attention. I began having sex for personal gain; unconsciously I was seeking love and closeness. If it weren't for sex, I would feel no closeness! I know that there is no fault in this, I am sure that this is not uncommon; there are probably millions of women who use sex to get close to guys. But what you said stuck me as very true: The danger is that we sell ourselves short in the process of seeking validation from others. Here lies the shame for me, because in selling myself short (or exchanging sex for love) I degraded myself and my integrity. I then realized a painful discovery, that I wasn't loved and that the only attention I was getting was the wrong kind. I felt ashamed of using sex in this way. That also lead to rejection of sex, where I avoided this kind of attention from guys and I avoided my sexuality. But denying your sexuality is denying your life force.
I don't think going to extremes helps but I have learned from both polarities.
What I find unanimous in our opinion, is the truth that we (SGA's) are more sexually identifiable, meaning we identify strongly with sex. The lack of a sexual identity in many of us would make us powerless in a world that revolves around looking your best and being sexually attractive.
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| | | | from exister
Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 08:20
 (Agree/Disagree?)
While your article is insightful it also a bit general and a little facile.
I think we all agree that we were exposed to way too much sexual content as children. The context in which this sexual content was presented made it even worse for us than if we had been raised by porn stars though. The reason for this is the overwhelming, unpredictable and chimerical moral/spiritual currents that permeated the sexual landscape we were exposed to.
For example, mommy is dressing up to go fuck strange men she will pick up in a bar. These men will later give daddy money. At the same time the hooker on the street that blows men for $20, which she gives to her pimp, is evil. The conflict here is that these two situations are exactly alike in content, but we were told that the context made a huge moral difference.
Then of course there was all of the wife swapping. This was all good until someone got jealous, at which time there would be a big prayer meeting, and if the jealous party had sufficient rank there would also be a whole GN series.
What is missing in all of these sexual contexts is any consideration for the individual as a sexual being. One's sexuality was only considered in as much as it could be used as a cog in the COG machine (whoa, it's a caps pun, go me)!
Anyway, we are all basically sexually fucked. Sex has been a commodity since the beginning of time. I find that my life is easier if I generalize about human sexuality. For this reason I make little functional or moral distinction between the whore that gets $20 for a blow job and the one that gets a house and car in exchange for 20 years of lame sex.
Flame away sisters!
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|  From Baxter
Wednesday, June 02, 2004, 13:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree that it's very hard to get past that indistinction. Try as I might, I find myself being disgusted by female sexual behaviour if they act in the least promiscuous, or materialistic. I find it extremely hard to respect women. I realise this is not a positive or productive attitude, but watching my mom fuck some complete stranger did have certain repercussions.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from I think
Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 14:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don´t want to contradict you or anything, I think I understand the point you were trying to make about the comix & about the FFing & the way we were brought up to see sex & all that but I think that more than a tool & a curency we were brought up to see it as something that you have to give away freely because it is for the good of the group & for your rewards in the afterlife.
I think that what affects a lot of us is the fact that even though now we know that sex is sex & nothing more, they brought us up to believe that it was a way of attainng nirvana or spiritual enlightenment or even rewards from any higher power for doing it with someone that you thought was repulsive.
I think that one of the problems we had to face when we first left the family was people thinking you were a sex maniac because your thoughts were so liberal about the subject & yet your intentions were never quite what you made everyone believe they were. We had no education of what sexual conduct we should have in society.
I also think another thing is that after you see it so much & have had such bad experiences in your childhood & adolecence, you kind of lose taste for it & it is a little hard to have a "normal" sexual realtionship with future partners because you have a unnatural feeling about it because it was presented and forced on you all your life in an unnatural way. What I mean about unnatrual is based on our western society, of things that you should & shouldn´t do in front or with children.....you know what I mean?
So I do believe that it has affected me & a few people I know the fact that we grew up in such a sexually liberated environment. I also think that our relationships with our parents are affected because of what they did in the past or are doing presently, and I´m sure that a lot of people can agree with me on that.
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| | | | From I hear you
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 14:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with what you're saying, but if you think of it, looking at sex as "something that you have to give away freely because it is for the good of the group & for your rewards in the afterlife," does not necessarily conflict with sex as a currency. In your way of expressing what TF taught us, which is what I was taught as well, it is a currency because it is a tribute we have to render in order to be accepted and considered properly "revolutionary," unselfish, and loving, and in return for the payment you are not condemned for being the opposite of those things.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Jules
Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 11:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Before some of the threads on this article go any further, I want to ask the young men who have responded so strongly on this topic exactly why you feel the need to be so dismissive?
I’m not buying that you simply reject generalizations. If that were the case, you would not assume Chris’s observations and hypotheses to be inaccurate because you personally never experienced these things. That’s completely illogical because when you do this you are making generalizations: “I did not have that experience so therefore no one else did”. A simple “my experience was different” would express your viewpoint without invalidating the viewpoint of others.
Amongst other things this web site is for discussion on the impact growing up in the Family has had on our lives. I also don’t buy that people read and interact on here simply because it’s in English or to discuss politics or to keep in touch with friends. Email, instant messaging and phone calls keep me in touch with my exmember friends. There are many other web sites with interesting debates and topics. The one thing that is unique about this particular web site is our shared experience of being raised in the Family and there’s really no other reason to come on here.
Once again, it is completely inappropriate to disregard or attack another’s experience on this web site. No one has the right to tell someone else to “get over it”. It’s especially nauseating to me that a male made the nasty comment under “a girl who cares about her appearance”. This behavior goes against the entire premise of this web site and I’m asking you nicely (and this is the final time I will ask this particular person) to show some respect.
(reply to this comment)
| From Joe H
Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 11:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
No one dismissed anything, or called anyone a liar for sharing their experiences. I simply pointed out that the idealized body image was not unique to our upbringing, and when I said "get over it" what I meant was that we need to get over the idea that this was something we have the monopoly on. This does not mean that I am denying that the Family's artwork contained idealized body images (though, to be fair, the women in Family artwork were more curvaceous than the models you see in the fashion magazines nowadays). I also realize that the control-freakery practiced by many of our "caregivers" was responsible for the body issues and eating disorders that some of us suffer, and I sympathize with those who have been victimized in this way. That being said, I don't think anyone should use that as an excuse to be overweight, and I'm not saying you should lose weight to please me or any other man in the world; you should do it for your personal health and self-esteem. This is just my two cents on the issue, and as a male I'm probably not very qualified to be offering an opinion. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Wolf
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 21:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
I didn’t dismiss the whole article, just a particular portion. Joe’s post focused on a statement that seems particularly naive. This article starts out kind of interesting but goes off the deep end when it gets into singling TF out for things that are commonplace throughout society. Have you ever seen a high school or college where sexuality and good looks aren’t one of the major driving social factors?(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 18:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
I understand that you may not share Chris's opinions and that's fair enough. What I found distasteful was the ridicule towards people who had disclosed personal and painful experiences. Chris stated some theories which he has opened for debate. Debating that (though, dude, I know you can do better than this) is totally different than someone dismissing and ridiculing someone else's experience.
It's very frustrating for me sometimes that I simply don't have the time to engage in some of the more interesting discussions here. Anyone who knows me knows that the issues Chris raised are of immense interest to me. These are things that I have personally reflected on for some time, mostly from trying to sort through my own convoluted sexuality but also from observation of other non-normative behaviour of friends and acquaintances. I have personally lived by the principle of “If you’ve lived it, then you know it” sometimes to the extreme.
To answer your question, I personally would not know how social interactions in high school function, having never attended one. I’ve seen high school kids interacting in movies and on TV, but even I am not gullible enough to think that Buffy or American Pie portrays reality. I have attended University though and granted, as a “mature” student and someone who does not live on campus, my experience is different than the 19 year olds who think their frat house is a cultural Mecca, my experience of social interaction was remarkably different than what I experienced in the Family.
Basically in the real world there is choice. Yes there are tons of bimbos and male chauvinist pigs out there, but I am not stuck with them 24/7, I don’t have to “love” them, or even talk to them. If my workplace is healthy, they are not likely to be my supervisors. There are tons of shallow and insecure people who sell out to the image machine and the “must have” accessory or gadget of the month, but I have the freedom to tell them exactly what I think of them. I don’t live in fear of being put down or ratted out by someone who is sleeping with the prof/my boss and I don’t have to associate with people who rate other people on sexual prowess or conquests. If I don’t want to have sex, I don’t freaking have to. No one is going to correct me for being “selfish”. If it's not working, it's not working. If the guy doesn't like it, well I generally tell him to get back to me when he learns how to turn a woman on. I can choose to be whomever and whatever I want to be, and there is a whole social circle to be found no matter what the choice.
Basically my point is that, yes, these same attitudes occur in many parts of society, however:
a) I have now a choice about whether or not to participate.
b) Not to be all, “you’re just like the Family”, believe me, I think that is a very lame argument (yes I know I am lame when I do it), but humour me here because this is something that I can’t stop thinking of. This sounds suspiciously like the Family’s argument of “sexual abuse occurs in every culture, so stop picking on us”. Sexual abuse does occur in every culture. Obsession with sexuality and sexual attractiveness is epidemic in some circles in western society. For me personally, that doesn’t mean that analysing certain behavioural patterns isn’t helpful.
Personally I believe that the more I understand, the more I can deconstruct the things I do to sabotage my own life, and the sooner I can diffuse my self destructive tendencies, the sooner I can move on. The bottom line is that I totally agree with the person who posted in this thread who quoted Socrates. The unexamined life is absolutely not worth living. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Ne Oublie
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 12:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, while I agree with much of what you've just said (and indeed have said much of it myself - albeit from a different perspective) I do wonder how you are able to identify which user posted the various 'anonymous' posts? The only ways I can think of this being possible are if either the IP address or User ID are somehow associated with the post, in which case I wonder how this complies with the following from the sites Privay Policy?
Submission of Content: The submission of content to this site requires registration. Once you have registered and logged in to the site, a cookie (small electronic file that identifies your computer as a user of this website) is downloaded to your computer. This allows you to access personalized information. The cookie does not contain any information about your computer, your location or any personally identifiable information.
Bulletin Board: A cookie containing the nickname you last used is sent to your computer, for your convenience. This is displayed in the name field of the post/reply form, comment on an article form, the login page and the send an email page, and can be changed by you if you wish. This information is not recorded or tracked by this site.
http://www.movingon.org/privacy.asp(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 12:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Obviously this needs to be updated, but the only thing that is not still valid is the last sentence. The web site has gone through many different levels of required registration, with all comments, emails, chat and posts initially being anonymous to now requiring registration for all participation (except rating comments and articles) and I suppose I forgot to update this after the last change. There is no personally identifiable information in any cookies set and no one but me has access to server logs and/or IPs. However, a person's site nickname is associated with everything they write on here. If they change it, their "actual" nickname is accessible only to the administrators. This enables us to address harrassment and misuse of anonymous posting without disabling it for everyone. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Zed
Friday, May 28, 2004 - 15:46
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I don't see how non-cult children who grow up watching TV, reading comics, and watching movies, (all these advertising perfect bodies) will be less determined in their pursuit of asthetic perfection.
And using your 'looks/body' to get what you want is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Yes, prostitues do it too, but in their case it's usually for survival, as in 'no money no food'. There are exceptions.
Of course the way we interact with our significant others might be influenced by our upbringing. But that's only a small part of what makes us who we are and what governs our interactions with the ones we love. It could be something completely different for each one of us. Past relationships, cultural influences, a friend's relationship, something you read, any one of these and many others could be just as much a factor as our 'sexualized' upbringing.
(reply to this comment)
| from Wolf
Friday, May 28, 2004 - 11:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don’t know what part of the world you’re in but I think it’s pretty common knowledge in most places that sexuality is used as a “tool, a weapon, and a currency” at almost every level of society.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from someone
Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Since people in the cult were not allowed to study and develop intellectually, physical beauty was the only attribute you had. I was shy and never considered myself attractive in the cult. As a result, I became obsessed with my body and developed bulimia which took me a long time to get over. The horrible part was that I never binged....I’d eat one piece of plain toast and force myself to throw up.
It started when this obsessive family I (briefly) lived with would spend two + hours a day working out. They especially loved the Cindy Crawford workout and would walk everywhere rather than take the bus, even if the walk took two hours or more. All people would think about from the moment they woke up was physical appearance. Apparently, we really didn’t have anything better to do.
Now, I may be 30 lbs heavier but I am so so so so much happier. I am a graduate student and I rarely have time or energy to workout. Although I do eat healthy food (I generally only shop at Whole Foods), I eat whatever I want. I do chide myself for not exercising more, but I am freed from that obsession with my body!
I don’t consider myself especially beautiful and I'd be happy to lose a few pounds, but plenty of (nice) guys find me attractive. I don’t last a few minutes in a bar without pp paying attention to me. I think it is self-confidence. I now feel good about myself, my accomplishments, and where I am going that I can relate to young professionals my age.
What a relief!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Joe H
Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
I know I've complained about this before, but growing up with "idealized body images . . . comix were always filled with idealized buxom women and muscular men" is certainly not unique to our upbringing. Freaking get over it already people!
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| From frmrjoyish
Saturday, May 29, 2004, 05:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jesus, Joe, you're a smart guy so why the hell is it so hard to understand how TF could've so easily caused many of us to have body issues? Yes, women of all ages in every country are influenced by their perspective culture's beauty ideals, but the average women and young teenager does not have to put up with even a fraction of what we put up with in TF.
While many of us were going through our formative years, we were forced to communally shower, wear see through sarongs, and one home I was in had an underwear only policy. Once I turned 12 I had to walk around in only panties. The average woman does not have to put up with such constant and daily inspection of very private parts of her body. The average woman did not have shower with Uncle so and so and have her newly growing breasts commented on and examined by every pervert in the home.
No one can blame TF for being unhealthy or overweight. We all know better than that. If this is the cause of a poor body image, well, there are plenty of ways to fix that. We can actually thank TF for instilling better dietary habits than the average person. We can even thank them for making us eat semi-spoiled food and slightly rancid milk as it probably built up our resistance to a plethora of harmfull microbes.
But we have every right to insist that the disgusting perverted policies and practices inflicted on us young women by TF had very real and serious consequences for our body images.(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Saturday, May 29, 2004, 19:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Fmrjoyish, I agree with 97% of your comment and gave it a hearty thumbs up. However, I must take issue with one thing you said. You said:
"No one can blame TF for being unhealthy or overweight. We all know better than that. If this is the cause of a poor body image, well, there are plenty of ways to fix that. We can actually thank TF for instilling better dietary habits than the average person. We can even thank them for making us eat semi-spoiled food and slightly rancid milk as it probably built up our resistance to a plethora of harmfull microbes."
I will not dispute that your experience may have had that effect on you. However, your two assertions, "No one can blame TF for being unhealthy or overweight" were not the case for me. I cannot naturally have children because of the pelvic inflammatory disease I got from an Uncle, the Shepherd, screwing me from the time I was 12. I almost died from that too while they were exorcising oplexicon.
I also had whooping cough in TF (along with 30 other children) and chickenpox (ditto), my sibling had scarlet fever, my friend had meningitis, all untreated.
It so happened that when I was getting my period and hormones were kicking in, I was away from any "flesh" relatives in a big combo where said shepherd would take me any time of day and then send me back to finish JJT. Another would come while I was having "word time" and stick his fingers inside me while looking all pervy and praising the Lord. Even my still-brainwashed mother, who now maintains she did not know I was being abused ("if she were, she would have told me" "why didn't you tell me??" (crocodile whines)) told me some years after adult sex with minors was outlawed that she thought I "let" myself go chubby (which mortified her) in order to be less attractive to the adult men who picked on me so much.
Personally, the utter lack of feeling safe in my body scarred me and I have a troubled relationship with my body. Those adults' sexual vampirism was in addition to the lack of privacy you and xena described so well. "If [weight] is the cause of a poor body image," you say, "well, there are plenty of ways to fix that." But joy, what I feel could not even be fixed by "Extreme Makeover" or "The Swan." It runs deeper and requires inner reconstruction on which I labor through therapy.
So yes, the yogurt and molasses and wheat germ were not unhealthy, nor was avoiding junk food. However, in my childhood in the 70's there was real hunger. Later, there were stretches of very unbalanced eating -- the same provisioned thing day after day. Not everybody was in tofuland.
And of course TF did not feel they were to blame for my body issues, but they left me utterly comfortless and food was all I could sometimes access. They also outlawed all of my exercise efforts because they looked down on overweight but did not actually want me feeling confident and competent -- that was "vanity."
I gather you are into the hard sciences more than those that deal with this kind of thing, the psyche and emotions, but I ask on my behalf and that of anyone who may have experienced things like I did, do not presume to tell us that we were given healthy habits and spare us the judgment of how we came to struggle with weight absent a knowledge of what we survived. Thanks much.(reply to this comment) |
| | From cyborcosmic
Thursday, June 03, 2004, 08:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with your comment completely, this is the honest truth of the matter. Your comment:
"Personally, the utter lack of feeling safe in my body scarred me and I have a troubled relationship with my body"
shows the consequence of growing up with complete mistreatment of the psyche,body,heart, All of yourself!
Even though the consequences are painfully obvious to us, Its impossible that the people who imposed them on us will ever admit the complete damage and stripping away of all of our security and safety!
How do you trust after something like this? How do you survive past torture and forced submission?
I argue with Chris, certainly people in society do have to face many cultural and aestetic conditionings, but at least they are NOT raised with cultural values and norms that promote the stripping away of 'self' ! So even though somethings are equally bad in cultures of the world, they were raised to be independent within a community, and that is their advantage over us! While we were raised to be dependent (or shall I use the word insecure!) and without value. (reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 08:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I do agree that the conditions in TF could have easily led to emotional damage that might contribute to unhealthy emotional eating. I struggled with the some of the same issues you did in TF. I was 5'8" and weighed 135 lbs. Evidently one or two shepherds considered me fat. I remember my first actual doctors appointment when I got out, I asked the doctor how much weight I should lose to be healthy. The doctor proceeded to refer me to an eating disorder clinic.
I've never had an eating disorder although my weight has fluctuated and I've never been thin, I've never been medicaly overweight even though I was made to believe I was as a young teen. So I completely understand the distorted body image that TF can give young girls with the constant criticism and unwanted attention from child molestors. I'm not sure how you misconstrued my comment into something judgemental. I know the issues young girls faced because I was there and I dealt with them myself.
However, I still maintain that, in general, TF instilled very good dietary habits and daily get out was rigourously enforced, esp. as a child in The P.I.. And we all know how anal Berg was about junk food, unless perhaps we were reading different letters and GN's or something. Although there may be underlying emotional reasons for overeating or whatever that stem from our horrible childhood, the bottom line is if you eat right and exercise regularly, you will not be overweight.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Wait
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 09:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
frmrjoyish, I am sure you have heard of the term “food insecure?” Even though we do not have a widespread problem of starvation here in the U.S, food insecurity is still a problem. There are many people who do not know when their next meal will be. These people cannot afford to eat healthy and depend mainly on cheaper food products such as processed foods rich in carbohydrates. You often cannot tell that these people have such problems obtaining food because they may appear overweight. I met a few people in TF with this problem. It is much more expensive to eat healthy than unhealthy.
Anyway, I am not sure what kind of experience you had in TF, but I can guarantee you that not everyone ate healthy. Part of eating healthy is having a correct balance of foods (pyramid) and eating a variety. In TF, one might not have this privilege. I remember many a time when my family had to eat the same thing day after day after day because it was the only thing we could afford. A way we did keep the weight down, however, was rigid portioning. We could only eat a set amount of food. This can be viewed as a good thing (many of us Americans have that problem of consuming too large portions).
However, this can also cause problems later in life. Three of my sisters developed weight problems after leaving TF. I can only hypothesize that maybe it had something to do with the portioning. Maybe they felt they were deprived and thus had trouble stopping themselves from over-eating. One of my sisters had an almost-obsession with the “forbidden” food (sweets, candy, junk food). It was like she was making up for lost time! Thankfully, two of my sisters now have their weight under control (no thanks to TF). It is important to realize that not everyone had such a positive nutritional experience with TF.
Oh, one more thing. As for get out, it was not always enforced or even encouraged in TF. Sometimes my mother would tell us NOT to go out unless absolutely necessary. This was because my parents and us ten kids were trying to cram into a two bedroom house/apartment. My mom did not want to draw attention to the fact that my parents lied about having two kids. Also, sometimes I would get in trouble for playing with the neighborhood systemite kids and not even aloud to get out… Sometimes our only get out was to go litnessing.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 10:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I seem to remember simple carbohydrates such as white bread and refined sugar were banned in TF. Perhaps it was not the same everywhere. Maybe your area of the world got different Mo letters than we did. The fact that the ratio of overweight people in TF compared to the rest of the world (or America...whatever) is dramatically lower is just a teeny little unimportant piece of data. So, in order to avoid the despicable position I seem to be in of defending that cult (how the hell did that happen??), I will agree with you. Stuffing your face with sweets and junk food, not exercising and living an unhealthy lifestyle is all TF's fault. Lack of willpower and selfcontrol have nothing to do with a persons character but can be blamed entirely on our deprived childhoods. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Fellow Scientist explodes your myths
Tuesday, June 08, 2004, 07:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
Selected qoutes from interview with obesity researcher:
"Dr. Friedman said he was outraged by the
acceptance of what he sees as a hurtful myth, one that
encourages people to believe that if you are fat, it is
your fault."
"Over the years, Dr. Friedman says, he has watched the
scientific data accumulate to show that body weight, in
animals and humans, is not under conscious control. Body
weight, he says, is genetically determined, as tightly
regulated as height. Genes control not only how much you
eat but also the metabolic rate at which you burn food.
When it comes to eating, free will is an illusion.
"People can exert a level of control over their weight
within a 10-, perhaps a 15-pound range," Dr. Friedman said.
But expecting an obese person to decide to simply eat less
and exercise more to get below the obesity range, below the
overweight range? It virtually never happens, he said. Any
weight that is lost almost invariably comes right back.
But isn't it true that we can decide to eat or not,
choosing to skip dinner, say, or pass up dessert? Isn't
that free will? Not really, Dr. Friedman said. The control
mechanisms for body weight operate over months, even years,
not day to day or meal to meal.
"People live in the moment," he said. "They lose weight
over the short term and say that they have exercised
willpower," but over the long term, the body's intrinsic
controls win out. And just as willpower cannot make fat
people thin, a lack of it does not make thin people fat.
Obesity, Dr. Friedman says, is a problem; fat people are
derided and they have health risks like diabetes and heart
disease. But it does no one any good to exaggerate the
extent of obesity or to blame the obese for being fat.
"Before calling it an epidemic, people really need to
understand what the numbers do and don't say," he said."
"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/08/health/08cont.html(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Tuesday, June 08, 2004, 08:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
Your anonymous copy and paste does not impress me. For starters, I was not speaking as a scientist in my comment. Of course genes have a lot to do with body size and shape but the fact that our society consumes more calories and is significantly less active plays a huge part as well. Not to mention the increased consumption of simple carbohydrates and processed food. And changing that, my fellow scientist, requires behavior change and can be done, with or without the influence of "fat" genes. If you need to copy and paste from another article to try to make yourself feel better by one-upping me, by all means, knock yourself out. But, as a "scientist", you should know that newspaper clippings are far from acceptable reference resources if your trying to "scientifically" support your position! I would, however, be interested in a link to the published paper documenting Dr. Freidman's work, which I do not discredit by the way. Next time try finding something in JSTOR or Cambridge, I'll be much more impressed!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Thursday, June 24, 2004, 12:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks frmrjoyish. I have a feeling that the above "study" was not published in the NY Times, but in "Convenient Theories for You" weekly. How does it purport to explain the fact that our genetic cousins in Europe and other parts of the world are decidedly LESS obese, on the average? Have our genes really changed that much in the 200 years since we moved to the western hemisphere? What a load of crap!
(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 11:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I seem to remember simple carbohydrates such as white bread and refined sugar were banned in TF. Perhaps it was not the same everywhere. Maybe your area of the world got different Mo letters than we did."
We got the same GNs, but as I said, in my childhood I was often hungry and just as MO said that in an emergency the Lord would understand, often all we could provision had sugar or white flour. FYI, in South America where I grew up, "whole foods" were quite expensive. We went for years living off what us kids earned singing on weekends at birthday parties and doing puppet shows. My parents would let us eat whatever there was at the party since it was free, although as you can imagine it was all junk food. Call me a liar if you want, I know better.
You claim you weren't making any judgments, but now you turn around and say "Lack of willpower and selfcontrol have nothing to do with a persons character but can be blamed entirely on our deprived childhoods," which I uderstand as you actually telling me my problem is a lack of willpower and self control. Whatever.(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 18:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Why does every god damned thing have to turn into an argument? Since your posting anonymously I have no idea which of the above comments are yours, but I've already said, multiple times, I understand and can empathize with you and whoever else may be posting in this thread. My childhood was no fucking walk in the park either! I'm not trying to be judemental and just because I happen to be in science doesn't make me a cold hearted unfeeling bitch. Talk about being judgemental!
I never said we had the best of food at our disposal at all times. But it is my experience that nutrition and exercise were issues that seem to have been stressed in TF. Nothing in life is simple or complex and I've found that there is seldom one reason or driver for anything. The emotional damage and abuse we went through in TF has wrecked havoc in all our lives in many different and personal ways. However, there does come a time when personal responsibity must come into play. Ultimately, we are resonsible for our own lives and our own health. We were not raised in the average American household which serves junk food several times a day and uses the TV, video games, and other sedentary activities as baby sitters. I feel it is fair to say we should know better. Again, in saying this, I'm not trying to hold myself up as some picture of perfection or the ideal beauty, it is simply my view on this issue.
If my above comment sounded bitchy it's because I resent having my words twisted and turned around into something I never meant and then being put into the position of having to defend anything about TF. But this is an issue I feel strongly about. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Miss Anonymous
Monday, May 31, 2004, 15:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I'm not trying to be judemental and just because I happen to be in science doesn't make me a cold hearted unfeeling bitch. Talk about being judgemental!"
Oops, so if that's what you think I was saying, I guess I could have been misunderstanding you too by the same token. Touche. If that comment of mine sounded bitchy it's because I resent having my words twisted and turned around into something I never meant -- oh, that's right, you said that.
What I meant by that remark was that you seem to be less into the elusive fields that interest me, and more into the concrete ones. Don't get me wrong, I totally admire you. Far be it from me to criticise you for something I have neither the talent nor discipline to achieve given my lack of preparation. But you have said yourself on this site that some of the less hard sciences do not spark your interest, and all I meant to say was that some of us are more into analyzing the inner experience (I even think there is such a thing as the unconscious that matters in our lives), but I do not mean to say that it's any "better."
I will also say that I personally only think about these things in order to increase my awareness of things that hamper me in an effort to free myself of their drag.
So that you know who's talking and what I'm talking about, I posted the first comment under your comment to joe and the one about junk food at birthday parties (which I'll admit had an angry tone, but that was in response to your "maybe you got different GN's" comment).
You ask "Why does every god damned thing have to turn into an argument?" OK, I hear you. I actually don't much relish argument myself as a rule. However, I do feel very strongly about certain things myself, and where I was coming from I heard you being pretty definitive and I wanted to sound off on the points I am concerned with. In my mind things you say carry weight. I might not have been as trenchant in tone otherwise. I was particularly anxious to point out something *I perceived* as a lacuna in what *I heard* you saying when you stated:
"No one can blame TF for being unhealthy or overweight."
I found that statement overly broad and conclusive.
I personally have irreversible and serious health consequences from my childhood that I can lay squarely at TFs door. I also don't think it's just me -- I know of another person has kidney trouble from the beatings, for example.
Leaving the PID and PTSD-type stuff to the side to focus on the food issues, I simply wanted to tell you about some things I experienced that had an effect *for me* that vastly outweighed the effect of what I was told in TF about get-out or healthy eating. You later said something that seemed to indicate that you somewhat get what I was trying to say:
"Although there may be underlying emotional reasons for overeating or whatever that stem from our horrible childhood..."
(-- in the sentence that finished by saying "the bottom line is if you eat right and exercise regularly, you will not be overweight.")
In your next response to me you also acknowledge "The emotional damage and abuse we went through in TF has wrecked havoc in all our lives in many different and personal ways." That is pretty much what I wanted acknowledged.
You go on to say "However, there does come a time when personal responsibity must come into play. Ultimately, we are resonsible for our own lives and our own health." I do not disagree! I do, however, think that it would help some of us who in particular areas of our lives are stuck in the abused child's posture ("I must have deserved it, I'll continue to punish myself") to have those who savaged us take the responsibility for what they did. It may not happen, though, and I admit we can't wait for a showing of true contrition to start trying to take good care of ourselves. I mean, we can, but it will not benefit us.
So you want to "thank TF for instilling better dietary habits than the average person," fine. I myself have to thank TF for some things they undeniably taught me. There's the alphabet and how to count to very high numbers, not to mention the guitar chords a, c, d and g.
You then rightly remark that we did not get the experience of the US's more slovenly or low-class households: "We were not raised in the average American household which serves junk food several times a day and uses the TV, video games, and other sedentary activities as baby sitters. I feel it is fair to say we should know better."
Yes. I should also know better than being an atheist since I was given the truth all my life.(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 16:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, thanks for the play-by-play on my earlier comment!
Actually, I agree with much of what you said. However, unlike you, I find it's easier to deal with my past by not focusing on emotions and all that "mushy" stuff. Shit happend, the assholes deserve to pay but I will move on and give them as little thought as possible. They've taken enough of my life and they're not getting anymore!(reply to this comment) |
| | From itsxena2u
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 20:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
This has turned into a somewhat lengthy but interesting debate. After reading frmjoyish and miss anoymous, I have to admit that you both have very good points. Having lived in several countries and dozens of homes in my lifetime, I have seen both sides of the coin.
I think we all agree that TF laid down some pretty defined rules about eating healthy after the "health revolution". However, the quality of food depended largely on the situation, home, country, standard, and economic resourses that were available to us. For example, I have been in situations such as Joy stated that we were not allowed to eat refined sugar, flour or anything processed for that matter. We had soy milk, tofu, molasses and whole grain rice. We even made our own peanut butter from scratch! We had mandatory "get out" and had to drink 8 glasses of water a day. Provisioning was good and we had steady income from our mail ministry or WS.
But on the other hand, I did live in some very poor countries where we barely scraped by. Meat and dairy products were hard to come by. When I was PG with my 1st child, I had to provision my own powdered milk (because the home wouldn't give me the money to buy it) and hide it in my closet so no one would take it. But no matter what home I was in, I always managed to eat plenty of fruits and vegetables. Eggs were not too expensive either and that was one way I was able to get my protein. To tell you the truth, I think in some ways I ate healthier in South America by eating fruits and veggies then when I arrived in the US. The home I was in (here in USA) had an abundance of meat, cheese, flavored yogurt, whole milk and canned foods. But there was not much produce. The vegetables were either canned or frozen. There was a lot of breads, pastries and sweets of all types. I quickly gained a lot of weight. And I didn't eat any more than I used to.
I don't know if TF is to blame for a lack of will power. I personally admire anyone who has a lot of will power. I personally don't have any (when it comes to eating) I find comfort in food. When I am depressed, anxious or bored I eat. However, eating only comforts me for a brief moment and then I am overwhelmed with guilt. I eat because I am depressed. I am depressed because I am overweight. I am overweight because I overate when I was depressed about things other than my weight!(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Sunday, May 30, 2004, 05:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
I totally agree with you. I think weight was a major issue in the Family and if you had any problems in that area you were a target. From the maxis to the mini's. Weight was a way to not be groped as you were less desirable and more people left you alone. My looks was somthing I cared about I tried to make them as bad as possible to avoid to invitations I'd rather not have.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From itsxena2u
Saturday, May 29, 2004, 12:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
The teen combo in Rio had a rule that wearing panties to bed was not allowed. It was supposed to be "healthy" to let your genitalia "air out" at night. Every night before bed, our teen shepherdess would "climb up the ladder" into our room (about 20 of us shared a space in an attic of about 20'X30' in size with 8 bunkbeds and 4 trundle beds) to check on us after we had gotten into bed by lifting up the sheets and making sure we weren't wearing any. It was also against the rules to lock the bathroom door when going to the toilet. I remember one of the girls got a demerit for locking the door when she needed to go #2. They said it was very selfish of her to have the whole bathroom to herself when she was only using the toilet and there were 19 us who could be taking showers, coming our hair, getting dressed etc.. (yes Joe, I was one of them) After "get out" we'd all pile into the shower and take turns using the soap, shampoo and water. The shower would run continuosly for about 30 minutes until we were all done. We had about a minute and a half to get in and get out.
I remember the most embarassing time for me was when one of the kids got scabies, so in an effort to make sure no one else got it, we had to rub scabies lotion all over our bodies and stand naked for 30 min all crowded in our room. Another time was when one of the kids had pin worms and because we were such a large home, it would be very costly to treat everyone. So in order to stop the spread we had to boil all our undies. I was helping in laundry dept at the time so it was my job to collect all the underwear from 70+ people and put it all in one huge *pot of boiling water and literaly "cook" it. One big, nasty underwear soup! ugh!
This may all seem funny to you now, but it sure wasn't then. Anyway, I don't know how I deviated so much from the main subject of this article. It just goes to show that not only were we exposed to a lot of sexuality but we were embarrased and humiliated in many ways as well. I guess it was to keep us humble....... NOT!
*The pot was used to cook dinner later on that night.(reply to this comment) |
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