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from Meathead Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 00:19 (Agree/Disagree?) My first job i got was a teaching job and i got paid 21 $ an hour. thats the average hourly salery for an english teacher where i live. (reply to this comment)

from Baxter Monday, June 07, 2004 - 04:49 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm in no way taking TF's side when I say this: my dad is still in, he's on his way towards whatever it is that they call part time members (FM WTF?), but he makes about £400,000 a year. Of course, over half of it goes to keeping the 'missionaries' in the fucking 'field'. In a way, I think some people must have picked up a lot of excellent survival experience within the group. He wasn't academically trained in business, he just picked up the skills from having to constantly salvage situations where TF didn't know their accounts from their A___holes. (reply to this comment)

From Jeremy Saturday, June 19, 2004, 03:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Baxter, email me. I haven't talked to you in a while. We should catch up.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Saturday, June 19, 2004, 12:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Is this Dr Remedy speaking? Mate, how're you doing? I shall e-mail you asap. (reply to this comment)

from itsxena2u Monday, May 31, 2004 - 15:18 (Agree/Disagree?) I started working when I was still in TF. My 1st job was working at a 7/11 convenient store making about $7.50/hr. After 4 months I dropped that job for a customer service/dispatch position starting at $10/hr because I was bi-lingual. That was 7 yrs ago. We had a young man staying with us at the time who was raising funds to go to Africa. He wasn't good at making balloons and "canning" was totaly out of the question (can't blame him there). So I decided to help him find a job. But he was so negative about his lack of education and his ability to do anything that he was turned down several times. No matter how many times I tried to encourage him to focus on his good qualities and "sell" himself, he was convinced in his mind that he would never get a good job because of his lack of education. He was a pretty clever guy (good looking too) and even though he didn't have much education, with the right attitude and determination I'm sure he would have gotten a decent job. Instead, he settled for a job paying $6.15/hr stocking shelves at Target. I'm a recruiter for a major staffing service and I help find qualified employees for our clients. Many of the jobs we have range from skilled crafts and trades to semi-skilled and un-skilled labor. I hire many people for general labor and pay them anywhere from $5.15 - $6.00/hr based on their experience and work conduct. Although these people are hard workers, they have little or no education whatsoever! Some of them can barely read or write and have never touched a computer keyboard or mouse. These are the type of people that get paid minimum wage. I don't think ANYONE who was raised in TF is that ignorant or should accept minimum wage no matter how little education they received. I think we are all capable of making more money than that, no matter how bad the economy gets. I don't think ex-members should sell themselves short of settle for anything less than what they're worth (unless they believe in their mind that they're not worth much). I just got my GED and yet I've helped people write business proposals, translate documents and edit their resumes. Some people are such dumb asses I'm suprised they even graduated from high school! I'm not defending TF education mind you, but I just think that we are smarter than we give ourselves credit for. I guess it was all those years of TF telling us that we should always take the blame for anything bad that happened and give the Lord the credit for anything good we did. The fact that we were told that we "are our own worst enemy" didn't do much to boost our self esteem. (reply to this comment)

From Christy Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 16:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree, Zena, that it's important not to sell yourself short. When I first left I wanted to get a job the same day. I had enough money to last a month or two, but I wanted the security of a job--practically any job (though I wouldn't have stooped to flipping burgers). I also needed something very accessible since I didn't have a car. However, this can turn into a downward spiral. Once you're working at low-paying job, you're too busy trying to make ends meet to take the time out to look for a better job and to train for it. In my case, I had to wait until I was finished with my semester in order to have the time to look for a better job. I would definitely advise those who are getting their first jobs to invest the time up front in finding something that will meet their financial needs. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 11:11 (Agree/Disagree?) "I think we are all capable of making more money than that" Doing what exactly? Could you offer some examples? (reply to this comment)

From Nick Friday, June 18, 2004, 15:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, what about what I do? I make a hell of a lot more than that and I was not lucky enough to have a good education. (reply to this comment)

From Auty Friday, June 18, 2004, 13:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, pooh Jo. When I left I made about $100,000 a year with no education. :-)(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:45 (Agree/Disagree?) That's great, Autie, but you see, when I left I was 15 and there were no strip clubs in my town that would hire me. So why don't you save your bragging for the drunken old men you rub up against every night and stop belittling the rest of us for attempting to make an honest wage (or salary, in my case)? (reply to this comment)

From Auty Saturday, June 19, 2004, 10:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Ah, Joe, I can always count on you for a little bit of sarcasm and a smile. BTW, if you left at 15 where were your parents?(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 17:06 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think I have to answer that question Joe. Of all people you should know that there are a lot of jobs that exer's could get that pay much more than a mere $5.15/hr. I have a feeling that you're trying to mock me because I don't have as good an education as you. You read the paper, don't you? Am I to believe that you have never once looked in the Sunday's classifieds and found decent paying jobs that exer's would be qualified for? There are numerous jobs that require a high school diploma or equivalent. They may not pay as much as a job requiring a certain skill or college degree but they're at least twice as much as the minimum wage. Or is it because you think that people who leave are incapable of making a decent living because they spent so many years of their lives in TF?(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 17:24 (Agree/Disagree?) No, I'm not trying to mock you, I really want to know what these jobs are. When I left I worked at Taco Bell and Cinnabon, then as I learned more skills I as able to move up to slightly better jobs, but it was years before I was making "much more" than minimum wage. What skills are you alluding to that you think ex-members have, aside from a lot of sales experience and a strong work ethic?(reply to this comment)

From night_raver Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 14:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I definitely have to agree with JoeH on this; one thing that pisses me off is it seems some of us leave with this elitist attitude, "I wouldn't stoop to working in McDonald's". When I left, I worked at a hardware store for awhile before college and I would do it again, minimum wage and all -- it was an important step in ridding me of this "we are it" bullshit we grew up with where some of us seem to look down on that type of work. It's not just exmems, it's alot of college kids who think fastfood workers are lazy bastards who didn't apply themselves in school. If everybody was magically transformed into Ivy Leaguers who graduated Magma Cum Laude, we'd have some pretty intelligent burger flippers -- we NEED those jobs as much as all those other jobs that qualify as "non-stooping to". (reply to this comment)

From Christy Saturday, June 12, 2004, 07:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, that part of my comment came across a little snobby. I oppologize if I offended anyone. For those just starting to build credible work experience, sometimes you do have to settle for a job that is less than thrilling and that doesn't pay all that well. If I had been in my teens at the time that I left, I might have felt differently about taking on that kind of job. However, I was 23 when I left, and I just didn't consider working in a fastfood joint an option--even as a manager. It has more to do with my feelings about the fast food industry than it does about the kind of work. I also would not have made it working for minimum wage as I was on my own from the start, and the cost of living in my area is very high. If it had taken me longer to find a job, I might have been more open-minded about the flipping burgers option.(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 15:14 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree. The only drawaback of flipping burgers is that it's pays little and is not the funnest work - how unique is that? But if you need to do it while you're getting started, that's not "stooping" to anything! And in some countries it's considered a cool job for young people who are preparing for a more secure job by studying, etc. To paraphrase others, I'd rather be a burger flipper in the house of Mammon than the head of Activated Asia in a den of conspirators!(reply to this comment)

From To Joe with love from Xena Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 18:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, thank you for clearing that up. I should've given you the benefit of the doubt. You left TF when you were very young, didn't you? The fact that you got a job in your early teens is very commendable. It shows that you are a hard worker. When I'm talking about exer's getting jobs, I'm referring to those that left TF in their 20's and 30's, NOT teenagers. Other than the titles we have given ourselves in our profiles on this site, here are some examples of jobs my friends and people I know personally have had in the past and still have to this day. 1) Carpenters - 2 guys I know were very gifted at building just about anything in TF homes. From bunkbeds to lovely dinning room tables, kitchen cupboards, couches, desks, chairs and entertainment centers. With a little more knowledge and on the job training, one of them got a good paying job at Home Depot as a carpenter making $30/hr. 2) Auto mechanics - How many times have TF vehicles broken down and there was never a mechanic available? I have watched one young man take apart and rebuild a whole engine! 3) Computer programmers - 3 guys I know including my dad started their own software business and have made big $$$ This one kid I knew could build a computer from scratch with any specs you wanted on it. 4) Warehouse/shipping & receiving - Another guy was a warehouse supervisor and took care of the companies' inventory control and order pulling. 5) Subcontractor for a construction company- started off as an aprentice plumber and then got his jorneyman's license. 6) Administrative assistant - This may be another word for secretary, but the gal I know makes well over 30K a year. 7) Car salesman- This is a tough job but some people are born salesmen and make a damn good living off of it. My sister-in-law bought a car from an exer who owns his own used car lot. 8) Real estate agent - She is very talented and has a great personality and does pretty well from what I've seen. 9) Bank tellers - My step sister an 2 other girls work at the bank to help pay their way through college. 10) Customer Service Reps- I'm not refering to telemarketing, but to customer care and technical support for major power companies, cable, internet and wireless communications. These people are also responsible for dispatching technicians to their job sites. The list goes on and on. Foreign language teachers, document translaters, restaurant managers, bartenders, postmen, truck drivers, home improvement specialists, interior decorators, florists, special event coordinators, flight attendants and hotel clerks. Some of the above mentioned jobs require certification and a certain amount of on-the-job trainning. Of course these jobs would be somewhat hard to keep if you were going to school at the same time. There's nothing wrong with getting a minimum wage job just to help make ends meet while you're going to school. In fact, many of these lesser paying jobs are more flexible in their work schedules and make it more "feasible" (did I spell it correctly?) to study at the same time. (reply to this comment)

From Christy Tuesday, June 08, 2004, 17:42 (Agree/Disagree?) To add a few more options to the list you made: Note: These are suggestions for those just starting out or who are in school. Once you've begun studying or working in a particular field, a lot of other opportunities tend to open up. - Childcare (the nanny thing). You can generally make $10-15/hr. This is a good college job as it's pretty flexible. One of my classmates was making $15-18/hr depending on the family, number of children, etc. Also, most of the money is paid in cash, so it works well at tax time. - I knew a few guys (they were still in TF at the time) who were making about 36K a year laying carpets. - Substitute teaching. In the county where I live, you need a college degree to sub, but in many places, you only need a high school diploma. I did this for a few month and was making $15/hr or 100/day. It's also very flexible and you can decide which days you want to work. - For those under the age of 18, many restaurants will hire you to host, bus, or run food. These jobs generally pay $8-15/hr. While not fantastic, it beats a lot of the other jobs that you can get at 16 or 17 years old. Very flexible and practical for students. - Life guarding. You do have to take a short course and have to pass some tests to qualify. The guys I know who do this make $12-15/hr and have lot's of time to flirt. - Bartending and serving. Earnings range anywhere from $10-30/per hour (mostly tips). Very flexible for college students. Fine dining restaurants usually require a number of years of experience, but most other restaurants will hire servers without prior experience. In order to get a bartending gig, you usually need to either take a course, or first get hired as a server and then move up. - Landscaping. While seasonal, I know people who make about $20/hr doing this.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 07:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Strippers! Why has no one mentioned the well compensated strippers?(reply to this comment)

From stripping as a last resort Sunday, June 13, 2004, 12:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, stripping does pay VERY well. But not everyone has the body for this type of work. Besides when a lot of women start getting used to the constant flow of large amounts of cash generated from it, they become addicted to stripping and don't do anything else with their lives from then on. Its easier for young attrative women to remain in the entertainment industry because it does bring in a lot of money and they don't have to work hard at studying for several years. Why would she want to study for several years with the future goal of obtaining a well paid carreer in the distant future when she is making so much money now? Then there is the dark side as well. Heavy addiction to alcohol and drugs. The fact that no one respects you, because you are compared to a whore. I don't think this way, but many people I've met think this way. What is the first thing that comes to mind when a person thinks of a stripper. SEXUAL GRATIFICATION. Nothing else. I'm posting anonymously because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I just think that we as women need to hold on to our self-respect and dignity. (reply to this comment)

From nobody Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 04:59 (Agree/Disagree?) As a woman myself and no I have no striped I don’t see anything wrong with it. Sexuality is something that for the most part most people have used at some point in their lives. From my experience if a man is talking to you then they generally wants to sleep with you. Men and women have nothing in common other than sex. Even if the man is gay, there is usually a little bit of flitting or sexual tension going on between the sexes. I think marriage is a much more controlled and derogatory environment for most women to be in. I have yet to meet a married couple who ‘are deeply in love’; for the most part children or monetary commitments keep then together. I’m sure that every woman at some point has had sex just to keep the other party interests. Granted the transaction of sex for money is not blatant but it’s still there. And thanks to feminine culture some men are now just as bad. If you look at any industry sex is always used to manipulate things. Although I do agree with you that it hard to walk away from that much money and one can lose sight of the fact that it’s a way to make quick money. I do have a very good friend who did it for a year or so. Yes she did make a lot of money but then you have to subtract the amount of money spend on retail needed for that job (yes you’d be surprised at the cost of that piece of cloth called a top), not to mention the lifestyle costs and party costs. She now makes more money working at a ‘respectable’ job. The only time in my life that I have seen anyone shoot up was not in a strip club but at a fashion show, where the in girls involved were barely older than 14 and 15 and were not allowed to order drinks at the bar. (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, June 17, 2004, 08:46 (Agree/Disagree?) What's funny about this comment isn't the fact that nobody is telling us that romance is dead and we are all emotionally and sexually fucked, but the fact that she seems to think this is news to anyone. Someday when nobody grows up these ideas will crystallize and produce new ideas that might be worth listening to. Until then let the flamefest continue. (reply to this comment)

From nobody Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 01:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I don’t think that romance is dead. It just seems a little bit hypocritical that people will judge someone who is blatant about what people will do for money. I did contrast it to marriage. Vicky confirmed in her comments that ‘maybe sometimes she doesn’t feel like it’ or what ‘she doesn’t know won’t hurt her’, so much for married life. That’s not to say that people can’t be happy in the security that marriage provides. Is a soldier a whore because he follows orders for money, even if they are to kill someone else? There are things a lot worse than stripping. (reply to this comment)

From nobody Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 01:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I don’t think that romance is dead. It just seems a little bit hypocritical that people will judge someone who is blatant about what people will do for money. I did contrast it to marriage. Vicky confirmed in her comments that ‘maybe sometimes she doesn’t feel like it’ or what ‘she doesn’t know won’t hurt her’, so much for married life. That’s not to say that people can’t be happy in the security that marriage provides. Is a solider a whore because he follows orders for money, even if they are to kill someone else? There are things a lot worse than stripping. (reply to this comment)

From Haunted Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 08:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Look, "nobody" - it's wonderful that you feel so qualified to comment on marriage as it's obvious that you know nothing about it - sure, you may have some observations, but have you ever experienced it first-hand?? I have all kinds of observations on others, but that doesn't mean I think I have any real clue as to how they truly are or how they chose to live their lives. Marriage isn't about security, if you knew anything about it, you'd know that - if anyone trashes marriage, it should be those of us who've been married for ages. I agree with you that there are worse things than stripping, but as long as you're accusing people of being hypocritical of things they know nothing about, why don't you lay off marriage as it's blatantly obvious you know nothing about it! (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Thursday, June 17, 2004, 11:19 (Agree/Disagree?) I couldn't agree more! Some of us were not born yesterday, nobody--we were born like the day before yesterday!(reply to this comment)

From Schopenhauer Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 16:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm rolling in my grave! Seriously (reply to this comment)

From Albert Ellis Thursday, June 17, 2004, 09:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Dude, why? Isn't nobody doing a good job of approaching your bleakness of outlook on humanity?(reply to this comment)

From Chopenhauer Friday, June 18, 2004, 13:13 (Agree/Disagree?) It's not the content DUDE! It's the abject lack of eloquence!(reply to this comment)

From Al El Friday, June 18, 2004, 13:56 (Agree/Disagree?) DUDE, English ain't her mother tongue, even the philosopher of negativity (or is it the philosopher of cold beer now?) would understand that!(reply to this comment)

From Silence, rationalist! Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I comment not upon her grammar, DUDE! It's just the way she worded it! Jeez, I should be ashamed of myself; nobody be not insulted by my childishness, I mean no ill-will! Cold beer! I ask you, cold beer indeed! Nothing wrong with cold beer! And for a second I thought I was communicating with a represtentative of the Isreali national airline! English wasn't my mother tongue either! (reply to this comment)

From This Server is truly fucked! Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 16:53 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

From sarafina Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 16:34 (Agree/Disagree?) "From my experience if a man is talking to you then they generally wants to sleep with you. Men and women have nothing in common other than sex." Wow! That a pretty derogatory in un verified comment about men ( in my opinion ).I feel sorry for you whoever you are. What kind of men are you around? Do you really think that the only reason a man ever talks to YOU is cause he wants to get his rocks off? Don't you have any other qualities like intelligence or a personality that they may enjoy just as much about you other then to f--k? I know I said I wasn't responding to anymore anonymous names, however I am making a exception as I can't believe what I just read. In fact I'm not sure where to even start with this one. To say that men are just friends with women cause they want to sleep with them and that we have nothing in common with them is simply not true. I personally have lots of really good male friends I have known for years that I don't have any sexual relations with who I not only have a lot in common with but enjoy their company immensely and are very close to. We travel together, party together share holidays together they are like part of my family. I'm not saying there aren't men like that(as I know at least one who agrees with what you've said ) I'm just saying they all aren't like that. Then you say "I have yet to meet a married couple who ‘are deeply in love" Well you haven't met my Grandparents. The have been married for almost 55yrs and they still act like teenagers in love. They flirt w/ each other and my gramps still pinches her ass and they snuggle all the time and constantly show lots of affection to each by holding hands, sitting on each other lap kissing . I mean they are still truly in love you can just tell by the way they look at each other. Boy, with "words of wisdom" like yours I can see why you need an anonymous name. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 18:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Good stuff!!! Nobody is probably still very young. I feel bad that those are the only males she's met. Makes me wonder what line of work or social life she's in. That could explain alot. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 17:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Don't pay too much attention to nobody -- she's more deserving of your pity than your hate. She's a South American remnant of an angry feminism that went out of style right about the same time her Brianda Domecq books went out of print, yet she still reads them as though they were gospel. Well I've got news for you, nobody, your former hairy-legged comrades figured out a long time ago that hating men was not the key to happiness. Just as (most) men have needs that can't be satisfied by other men's butts, no matter how tight and firm they may be (yes, I have been working out, thanks for noticing), women also can't and won't find satisfaction by slopping tacos with each other in between marching and burning their bras. Can't we all just get along?(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 17, 2004, 07:08 (Agree/Disagree?) If any fraction of your characterization of nobody is true, well then maybe it has something to do with latin men.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, June 18, 2004, 13:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Aaah! From sexism to racism in one go! Ah, who cares! (reply to this comment)

From nobody Thursday, June 17, 2004, 15:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Don’t blame Latin men or South American feminism for my views on marriage, as Jo’s characterization is not at all accurate. I don’t hate men, they are lots of fun, I just don’t believe in the happily ever after scenario. What do men’s butts have to do with the control that women are faced with when they marry, other than Jo’s gay fanaticises? It is much more socially acceptable for men to walk away from a marriage and start over again with a younger version of their first wife that it is for a women to do so. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 18, 2004, 10:20 (Agree/Disagree?) "South American feminism", eh? Didn't know there was such a thing. Think I'll add that to my list of oxymorons. Oh, and what the hell are "fanaticises"?(reply to this comment)

From nobody Friday, June 18, 2004, 11:28 (Agree/Disagree?) 'She's a South American remnant of an angry feminism', exactly jo there is no such thing. Ask your gay bubbies what fanaticises means. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 18, 2004, 12:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't have any gay "bubbies," unfortunately. Could you share some of yours with me? Also, could you tell me what the fuck a "bubbie" is supposed to be? PS I don't have gay "fanaticises" because there is no such thing. My "fantasies," be they gay or straight, are none of your business. (reply to this comment)

From * Friday, June 18, 2004, 15:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Look up the meaning of ‘fanaticises’ in a dictionary or Google dim wit.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 18, 2004, 15:28 (Agree/Disagree?) "Fanaticises" isn't in the dictionary. Google gives 48 hits, which leads me to believe that it's a typo, or an invention of nobody's that she taught some of her fellow ESL students. For what it's worth, "fanaticize" -- to make fanatical -- is a word, but that's not the way she was using it. Happy now, dim-wit?(reply to this comment)

From nobody Friday, June 18, 2004, 12:32 (Agree/Disagree?) sorry ment buddies(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, June 17, 2004, 10:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Exactly, that is why I sympathize with her. Nonetheless, I feel that my point stands. Ibero-American men may not be as progressive as their gringo counterparts, but they're not Arabs either. Keep at it, nobody, there are nice men out there!(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 12:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Your statement regarding marriage (as a controlling and derogatory situation) is really quite ludicrous, setting aside abusive and manipulative marriages, of course. I don't know what century you are living in but in this day marriage is supposed to be, and certainly can be, an equal relationship with some give and take from both sides. And where do you get the idea that marriage is only about money? What a laughable idea! I would venture to say that you must have been around some seriously doormat women with no personality and indentity of their own, if you think that the only reason they stay with their husband is because they can't survive without his money! Nowadays we can actually make our own money, you know... Of course we all know that there are some marriages that are based purely on the transaction of sex for money, status and security, but I would hate to think that anyone could be so cynical as to believe that this is the case in every marriage. As for your perceived lack of marriages where people are 'deeply in love', I would disagree again. I am assuming that you mean deeply in love as in the heady, passionate in-love stuff that goes on in the first six months to a year of a relationship? Well, I hate to disappoint you but that's all down to chemicals and doesn't actually mean much in the long run. I would say that what you're left with after that phase is REAL love, and means a whole lot more. Speaking of sex for the sake of keeping your man's interest, I think you're being rather simplistic in your views. Of course there have been occasions in the 9 years we've been together where I've had sex with my husband when I'd really have preferred to go straight to sleep, but I did so because I wanted to give him what he needed and certainly not because I thought that a little break in the sex for a day here or a day there would send him running off! By the same token there have been just as many if not more times when I've said that I really couldn't do it that night out of sheer exhaustion and he has accepted it without any problem. Another thing I take issue with is the statement that the only thing men and women have in common is sex. In my opinion sex is one of the areas in which men and women have hardly anything in common. Granted there probably is a bit of sexual frisson in almost every male-female relationship, but reducing it to nothing but that is an insulting idea that really annoys me. I believe that it is possible for people to have a powerful connection on many other levels than just sex - not that sex is unimportant, mind you, but I disagree with the notion that it should seen as the be all and end all. (reply to this comment)

From nobody Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 15:55 (Agree/Disagree?) How do you know your husband isn’t getting it somewhere else? I think dreamcatcher’s article is a more accurate example of what happens to married couples. Sooner or later affairs are bound to happen, granted they are not always with ones husbands brother in law, but they do happen. If married life was so great strip clubs wouldn’t be such a thriving business. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 18:50 (Agree/Disagree?) If you're still stuck on the notion that the majority of couples are having affairs then why not start a poll. Afterall, you used dreamcatchers article to support your opinion. I bet you can get 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 here to oppose it. If you see all men as cheaters then you'll be expecting that and you'll get it. I'll explain that in detail if you wish. I think those that shoot for a healthy marriage usually end up with it. You have to put effort in to it. It takes 2 to tango.(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 16:32 (Agree/Disagree?) You are right, many, many people do have affairs. Many people end up with a spouse that they are not well suited to, many people get divorced, hurt each other and all that. I know that life is not a bed of roses. But I don't agree with you that it has to be inevitable. As for whether my husband is getting some on the side, let's just say that what I don't know doesn't hurt me so even if he is it's of little consequence to me. In any case, he's always been a hopeless liar and I aim to remain much too clever/cynical/suspicious to be easily fobbed off with the kind of excuses most men come up with in trying to cover for illicit sex. I am not at all saying that I don't think it could ever happen to 'my' marriage and 'my' husband, after all as far as I know the statistics here in the UK are such that about one in two marriages will end in divorce, so the odds aren't good... BUT, You're showing rather a defeatist attitude, aren't you? Do you mean to tell me that you'd rather just give up on the idea of a loving, well-balanced and happy marriage as a viable goal to strive for, just because you've seen a lot of unhappy endings? If your idea of a happy, contented life is to flit from person to person every time the infatuation fades away, never building up a shared history, never getting past that point where you are still 'acting' a little bit, putting up a bit of a front and hiding your true insecurities for fear of rejection, if that works for you and if you feel that you will still enjoy a wholesome, fulfilling life, then great! But for most people who want to give it a go, it's necessary to realise that just because love and marriage are not quite as perfect as the proverbial fairy tale, does not negate all the things you do get from it if you can manage to get it just about right. Of course there are times when I wish I could be free and wild again. sometimes I think it would be quite nice to experience the thrill of the chase again. I'm not denying that at all. There are also times when I wish I could have enjoyed showing off my pretty decent figure for a little longer before my girls came along and brought with them the dreaded stretch marks, flab and less than perfect boobs. But that sure as hell doesn't mean that I regret being married, or having had my gorgeous children. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 10:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Wow! I didn't know it was possible to cram that much idiocy into a few paragraphs! You are amazing, nobody. In fact, I would venture to say that nobody is as dumb as you are. Kudos!(reply to this comment)

From nobody Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 15:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I glad that you think I'm amazing, but no Jo (E) I still don't like you. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Sunday, June 13, 2004, 21:18 (Agree/Disagree?) My friends that became strippers all chose to because it was the best way to make money after leaving TF. And the traits they picked up were bitchy, derogatory towards men, alcoholics(drinking on their own time when added to the amount at work is alot), playing men and not just for cash and laziness due to the effort required at work. Naively, they always start off with the right intentions with promises to themselves of not becoming the above things and taking drugs. But in the end they realise it comes with the cash. The friendship I had with them slowly died because they started to treat me like one of their customers. And I also got tired of hearing about the men they were playing. My desire to be friends didn't change but I did start losing respect for them. Just as it does when a male friend becomes a drug dealer or similar. It's another form of entertainment that pays tons except no talent is needed. Someone mentioned that girls can't get other jobs like men that pay this much but neither can guys get jobs like this. Being a gigolo or male stripper is not in demand like women strippers. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Sunday, June 13, 2004, 19:09 (Agree/Disagree?) "I'm posting anonymously because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. " No, you're posting anonymously because you don't want anyone getting on your case for hurting other people's feelings. When words hurt, they hurt; why not have the balls to own up it?(reply to this comment)

From Sunday, June 13, 2004, 19:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Because I have friends who are strippers. They are good people. I don't see them as slutty because of what they do. They probably take enough shit from other people, they don't need to take any from me. I don't judge them for what they do, I just wish that they would find another path and leave that type of atmosphere. If not for themselves, at least for the sake of their husbands and children. Men have no respect for them, and as much as they may say they are happy I sometimes wonder if they feel degraded in some way. One girl told me she had to get drunk every night just to get on the stage and dance in front of all those dirty men. She was a stripper for 10 years and now is married with 3 kids. (she is not an exer) She told me so many stories of her experiences with drugs, alcohol and perversion, it's sad. I'm happy she's found a good man and has a nice home. It's sad that women have to sell their bodies to try to make as much money as men. But if this is the life they choose to live, this is their decision.(reply to this comment)

From Nick Monday, June 14, 2004, 09:18 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess it depends on the woman. I know some that became total little whores and did things I never would have expected from them. Doing things that alienated them from all their friends and turned them into the stereotypical stripper that you hear about. However I also know some that are wonderful wonderful women and have somehow managed to separate work from their personal and mental state. They stay clean on the floor don't get involved with drugs, and drink only about as socially as I do. Some of these women are my closest friends and it's the other little "whores" that give these honest clean girls a bad wrap. (reply to this comment)

From Nick Monday, June 14, 2004, 09:18 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess it depends on the woman. I know some that became total little whores and did things I never would have expected from them. Doing things that alienated them from all their friends and turned them into the stereotypical stripper that you hear about. However I also know some that are wonderful wonderful women and have somehow managed to separate work from their personal and mental state. They stay clean on the floor don't get involved with drugs, and drink only about as socially as I do. Some of these women are my closest friends and it's the other little "whores" that give these honest clean girls a bad wrap. (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Monday, June 14, 2004, 19:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Definition of honest clean stripper: One who does not talk dirty in your ear or uses flattery to rip you off when you least expect it.(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 14:36 (Agree/Disagree?) Are you speaking from experience? I find it funny that some of us are coming up with standards for strippers. This indicates that we are beginning to normalize this behavior as a society, and of course the cult environment that we were raised in is doing it's part. Maybe some day this behavior will be so normalized that women will offer up a lap dance in lieu of a handshake. Now wouldn't that be nice?(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 16:41 (Agree/Disagree?) You wish............. ;-)(reply to this comment)

From Nick Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 09:29 (Agree/Disagree?) No, a clean stripper is one that sticks to the law. At least the Texas Law. No touching! Keep 3 feet between you and the customer. No sitting on him or grinding on him. Wear T Backs. And offcourse no BJ's and hand jobs. (reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 14:32 (Agree/Disagree?) And you're willing to pay money for this watered down version of stripping? I don't imagine there is any sex in the champagne room either?(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, June 14, 2004, 10:04 (Agree/Disagree?) honest... clean... girls... now that's funny.(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Sunday, June 13, 2004, 21:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Wouldn't you want a friend that was honest with you? You say you posted anonymous to not hurt their feelings but what I think is you don't want them to find out you aren't straight with them. I'd always want my friends to be honest with me at the right place and time. (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Sunday, June 13, 2004, 14:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey, fuck stripping! my mate works as a barman in 'Stringfellows' (The one and only) and he makes a small fortune in tips. He has a flat in a good part of London- which is no mean feat if you know anything about prices in London. Honestly, I agree that no one respects strippers much more than hookers, at least professionally. funny thing is, though, at least in my personal experience, strippers are a different breed altogether. I mean, going by the ones I've met, hookers are pretty much a defeated strain of the female gender, they just seem like life's a great fucking weariness (no pun intended). Strippers, on the hand, have a tendency to be much more men in women's bodies (metaphorically speaking). They're usually pretty tough cookies. They can party with the best of men, and you feel almost threatened by their presence, in almost the same degree that you do by being confronted by a very dominant male, albeit in a different way (that probably sounds kinda week, even gay- ah, who cares?) If you think about it, this kinda makes sense; it's almost as if a certain aspect of the sexual exploitation has been subliminally or subtly reversed- they're exploiting male sexual impulse, an all the men get out of it is peak and a lighter wallet- and they walk away thinking they had a good time (wtf?)! It's like the men don't even realise they're being exploited; their mysoginism blinds them from the fact that they're being taken for a ride. I mean, girls that do that have got to be pretty cold- or just numb. All that to say, I've never seen the myth of the week-spirited stripper fully materialised. Of course, I've never actually been to a strip club; I've just sporadically hung out with strippers at parties. I'm not denying that the girls are not being exploited as well. But there is a flip-side.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Monday, June 14, 2004, 11:48 (Agree/Disagree?) If you strip for no money what does that make you? (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Monday, June 14, 2004, 11:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Drunk?(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Monday, June 14, 2004, 12:14 (Agree/Disagree?) But I'm not a drunk(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Monday, June 14, 2004, 11:47 (Agree/Disagree?) If you strip for no money what does that make you? (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 14:07 (Agree/Disagree?) The life of the party! Seriously, will you come to my next party?(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Monday, June 14, 2004, 19:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Where you strippin at? The location and environment say alot.(reply to this comment)

From banal_commentator Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 10:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Absolutely! Are you showing your crotch to sleazy, greazy men in a poor neighbourhood, or are you showing your crotch to sleazy, greazy men in a rich neighbourhood? .............burning questions each stripper should ask herself. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Sunday, June 13, 2004, 15:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Stripping is both a symptom as well as a cause of the way society in general objectifies women. By participating in such an industry both the men and women involved perpetuate the sexual objectification of women. On the other hand, why is it that in this day and age the only professions in which women can earn more than men are prostitution, stripping, and modeling? It is a vicious cycle otherwise known as a positive feedback loop. I feel sorry for strippers as I think they are both victims and perpetrators at the same time. I don't have any hangups about the act of stripping and I actually think it's sexy, but the industry and the way it perpetuates age old attitudes towards women is a bit archaic. I just wish every woman had the self esteem to not fall for the easy way. If we could all do this women would have a lot more power and eventually wouldn't need to resort to such degradation in order to make a few bucks. The myth that the woman has all the power in such situations is just that...a myth. The one with the money ultimately has the power. The fact that women have to resort to such means to finagle money out of men speaks for itself. And who do you think owns the majority of the strip clubs? I'll admit I don't have hard facts but I'd put money on the fact that the greatest percentage of money flowing in the stripping industry (porn too) goes to a bunch of rich old men!(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Thursday, June 17, 2004, 07:45 (Agree/Disagree?) What about male strippers? Why is this all about women? “Why is it that in this day and age the only professions in which women can earn more than men are prostitution, stripping, and modeling?” Actually, this is the first “day and age” in which women can earn as much as (or more than) their male colleagues in many professions, if they work hard enough. I realize that women are still treated unfairly in many instances, but you make it sound like they were treated better in the past, when in fact the opposite is true.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Sunday, June 13, 2004, 16:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I think we're just exploring alternate opinions of the same argument. I must find out what Max Weber had to say about this. As I understand it, it's becoming a much more popular form of entertainment among women; in England it is not uncommon for women to go out to strip clubs. I agree that most of the owners of the industry are probably old men; that wasn't my argument. Most of the women I know who are strippers are so by choice; none I've seen are coerced into this life; a good many have actually had relatively good educations; what attracts them to the profession, in my opinion, is not so much the money as the attention factor, although the money is definitley a factor. I concede there are innumerable instances in which women are overtly victimised, but my assertion is that this model is not necessarily universal. Women who involve themselves in this industry are not victims by profession; the degree of control that they themselves impose on their own position is much more their own prerogative than might be imagined. In my experience, and unlike the prostitutes I've had the misfortune to interact with (and not as a customer), the women in the industry were neither ashamed nor subjugated. I frankly don't think that women of a weak disposition could survive in such an environment. perhaps they conceal their true emotions, but it hasn't seemed as destructive a factor as might be imagined. Also, the owners of stripclubs, escort agencies and such are not necessarily men. There may be fewer female business owners in this field, nonetheless they are there. If we can be pragmatic, I would argue that women will never be able to compete with men until they expand their own power base; this means dominating industries on their own terms, rather than trying to engage men within their own sphere of influence. They must become an external threat that exists in the practical sense, rather than merely abstract. Until they do, they will never be treated as much more than the novelties that they are treated as now. This must happen under any medium possible, else women will never be truly emancipated. If the first small step towards this is women in this admittedly degrading industry being able to take at least partial control and benefitting, than I say the end justifies the means, certainly so long as they're reaping the finacial dividends. I may sound indifferent and even insensitive, but so be it. As for the objectification of women, I say that both genders positively objectify the other. Women do it all the time, they've just been traditionally more subtle about it. Men merely have the benefit of being able to propegate and visibly substanciate their classification, having prevalent control of the media. Again, the only way this will change is when women can compete on their own terms. Sex IS power, and until women can wrest control it's use they will continue to be exploited. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 11:44 (Agree/Disagree?) "Most of the women I know who are strippers are so by choice; none I've seen are coerced into this life; a good many have actually had relatively good educations; what attracts them to the profession, in my opinion, is not so much the money as the attention factor, although the money is definitley a factor." UUGGHH! Do you really believe that BS? They choose the choices that society makes available to them! The subtle forms of sexism that rob women of opportunites are far more dangerous because they lead to apathy and a sense that all is well when in fact it's not. "Also, the owners of stripclubs, escort agencies and such are not necessarily men. There may be fewer female business owners in this field, nonetheless they are there." Ah yes, the token few. Just enough to allow the majority to ease their conscious while they go on earning the most and calling all the shots! Even better if the woman is a minority...you can kill two birds with one stone, eh boys? I've read some pretty intelligent things from you, Baxter, but this post reeks of archaic thinking and plain old sexism!(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 18:30 (Agree/Disagree?) They are not victims. This is a choice they made just like the choice you made to get a higher education. I don't know if this is true in every case but but I've noticed that a lot of the girls who became strippers were the ones who were usually the horny (slutty) ones in TF always wanting to get laid and trying to steal every girl's boyfriend. They thrived on the attention they would get from the guys in the home, were usually the ones walking around the house half naked wearing g strings or going out "witnessing" in mini skirts and tight shirts. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Having been a stripper and a call girl, I beg to differ with you. I left nine years ago and it was very difficult. I had nothing at all. Forget the credit checks turning up empty, a background check showed that I didn't exist at all. I had no idea about where to go or what to do and I was terrified of exmembers "brainwashing me into an evil enemy". I had never been to Canada before, so I knew no one, and I had no clue about the first thing about surviving outside the group. My grandfather took to me to see Cambridge on several occasions when I was a little girl and I used to dream about going there someday. There was nothing I wanted more than an education. I have talked about this before on here, but when I left I had the clothes on my back and my passport. That was it. No education, no money, no support and no clue. I ended up in a homeless shelter and decided there that I would do whatever I had to, to never ever be that vulnerable again. I remembered the Heavenly Helpers books and their advice on "system jobs". There was puppetering, modelling and escort work. Puppets scare me, I'm 5 foot 4, so I moved into a brothel within the month. There's a lot to my story that no one knows. I can say that I was not allowed to leave this place and when I did, it was in the middle of the night with the help of a client that I trusted. After every client I would have to go to the bathroom and throw up. Yes there were nice men that were just lonely and sad, but the climate was so awful, and they were copping out by purchasing what they thought was intimacy. I totally agree with Fmrjoyish in that women in this industry perpetuate the stereotypes. I saw and experienced this first hand. They are victims, but also perpetrators as well. Perhaps I have chosen to not do the "kiss ass" or "lost little girl" or "vixen" thing that I know how to do so well because I owe a global debt to women because of what I engaged in. Perhaps that's why women I come in contact with who manipulate men through their sexuality annoy me so very much. I think it was Baxter who said that women will never be equal to men until they have an equal power base. I could not agree more and I have always thought this. In our society power equals financial independence. When we are self sufficient financially, when alimony doesn't immediately conjure up an image of a man paying out to a woman, when there are as many female industry leaders as there are males, then we will be equal. It's unfortunate that our society still has problems in this area, but as long as women do "play" men for financial support and gain, women in general will be obstructed by these stereotypes. I had many marriage proposals from rich assholes which I frankly considered, (think of the alimony) but when push came to shove I just couldn't do it. Not so much because I cared about scamming them, but as women we all shape the perspective of our gender and are somewhat responsible for that. If we play those sterotypes, even if it is easier, we perpetuate the subjegation of women. I refuse to do that now. There is a side to many men that "actual" women never see. As a stripper (some of us actually do think) I have seen it first hand. I am learning that not all men are like this, but frequently there is a code between men that would be shocking to the "nice" wives and girlfriends if they knew. I think our society has changed so fast that men don't know where they fit now. Many men feel emasculated and powerless and there is anger and aggression that they don't know how to process. The Family, as in the 60's and 70's is, IMO, an intensified version of larger social trends. It's not politically okay (unless you are the Governator) to be a man's man anymore and that's very unsettling to many men. Many men feel lost and don't know what their role in society is anymore. It's hard to change and especially difficult when power is projected as the be all and end all of our western society and yet so very few people actually possess power. Anyways, this is all very off topic, so sorry about that to anyone who actually read all of this. All that to say that I was not a tramp in the Family, admittedly I did dress like one, but so did every other girl I knew. I did not steal anyone's boyfriend, and yes I did thrive on what attention I got, but it was because I was so insecure. I so wanted a father and got male attention where I could. I did what I did when I left because I thought it was my only option. This is one of the reasons this web site exists today. I made a promise to myself that if I actually survived, I would do what I could to make sure that no one was ever that alone or isolated again. I know this is just a web site, but it was a start. SPF is moving forward and hopefully we can present all the plans and projects soon. (reply to this comment)

From Christy Saturday, June 19, 2004, 09:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules, you are such an amazing woman. I say that not just because of what you've gone through, but because of how you've come out of it so strong and powerful. I think most people with this kind of past would try to hide it, but you use your experience to help others. I've never really understood why girls that left turned to stripping and prostitution. Sure, I realized that they had limited options, but I guess I thought they were just taking the easy money route, rather than slaving away at a low-paying job. When I left, I already had my driver's license and my GED (my mom made sure that I got those things taken care of when I visited her at the age of 18). I also had some money saved, a semester of college behind me, and I had relatives to whom I could've turned. I chose to do it on my own, but I knew that if that didn't work out, there would be someone there for me. I knew that those that left earlier had it much harder, but your story helps to show why some hit such extreme lows. One of my teen shepherds once said, "We've ruined you for the system". I was 14 at the time and it struck me very hard. It had already been a few years since I'd had any real schooling and even then, I realized that it would be very difficult to leave and pick up as a normal teenager. That was their goal, to make it impossible for us to leave. Then, when someone did leave, and almost inevitably fell through the cracks of society, TF held it over us. "See, that's what happens when you get out of God's will." I think those that are young and don't have parental support tend to be the most at risk. I think your foundation is especially important for those people. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, June 21, 2004, 20:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Christy, also one thing I wanted to clarify, SPF is so not MY foundation. There is a team of people who have brought this though so far, (whom I hope will all soon be profiled on the SPF site,) who have been very committed to this project as well. The people involved so far are all incredible, competent, accomplished individuals, whom I am extremely honoured to be part of this with. If it was not for their hard work and perserverance, this entire goal would be just another pipe dream. I know it's been awhile since we have talked about SPF here, but a lot of work has been done on this and more information will be coming very soon. There are a number of projects that we need help and support with and I truly believe we can have a lasting and definite effect in this endeavour. Thank you so much to those who have already contributed your time and energy to this project. It is so needed and I am so grateful to be part of this with you. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, June 21, 2004, 17:14 (Agree/Disagree?) Christy, thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure that I have come out it all so strong. This type of lifestyle certainly compounded a lot of the damage that had already been done and "the nails are gone, but the scars remain". I should clarify that in my opinion, the sex trade is not "easy money". It might be quick but is not easy. One reason I do talk about my experience with this is that most girls and women I know who got into this, did so because they knew other people who did. I know that I am probably somewhat warped by growing up in the Family, but a few people now have recently said, and I personally agree, that many people (not just women anymore) barter sex for something they wish to gain, whether security, power, attention, validation or whatever. The exploitation is what I object to, which unfortunately seems to be part and parcel of the whole environment from what I have seen. I think it's important that people get all the facts before making a choice. I sort of live by that code. If we have access to all the information on a certain lifestyle, and then choose it, we can say it was a valid choice and stand by our decision. That's one reason why I am absolutely passionate about the Internet. Information about anything, anytime, at your fingertips. Anyway, if I had to do it all over again, I don't really know what I would do. I am proud of the fact I survived what I did. I learned a LOT about myself and about men in general, that I did not know before. I was, ironically, naive in the extreme about sexuality and had no idea what I was getting into. While I think I have made my opinion on the behaviour of many FGs in the Family clear, I can understand the concept of getting in way over your head and not knowing how to get out. When you have crossed certain lines society is not warm and welcoming and it can be very intimidating to try to intergrate after making certain choices as an adult. (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Friday, June 18, 2004, 20:56 (Agree/Disagree?) What you said in your comment was very sobering. Its a sad reality. You said in your above statement "After every client I would have to go to the bathroom and throw up. Yes there were nice men that were just lonely and sad, but the climate was so awful, and they were copping out by purchasing what they thought was intimacy." This may be too personal, but weren't you afraid of catching HIV/AIDS or any other comunicable diseases from these clients? Did it ever cross your mind that having such a lifestyle could ruin your health and end up costing you your life? I wonder how many exers have HIV and how they are copping with it? Some folks I know are so sexualy active that I seem to wonder how they can remain disease free? We have grown up with so much sexual freedom that we end up wanting even more when we go out into society. Even condoms aren't 100% safe and you can get infected by just having oral sex. I'm not saying you have it, it's just something I've been concerned about. I am an extreme believer in safe sex. I'm sure you had your reasons for doing what you did. I am not one to judge you. I have not walked in your shoes and therefore cannot say that I know how you feel or what you've gone through. However, I do not understand why some women chose the lives they did when they saw first hand what FFing was like in TF. If they hated FFing so much, why did they go out and do the very same thing? Maybe not to "win souls" but to make money? (reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, June 21, 2004, 16:35 (Agree/Disagree?) I find it a little difficult to carry on “conversations” here at times, simply due to lack of time to respond to some things. Someone once said it’s like playing chess by post and for me that’s sometimes true. So sorry about the delay here and if this discussion is a bit outdated now, I apologize. You said: “ I do not understand why some women chose the lives they did when they saw first hand what FFing was like in TF. If they hated FFing so much, why did they go out and do the very same thing?” I don’t think there is a simplistic answer to this. The same question could be asked of any number of lifestyles and occupations. Why do some people go into sales or childcare or teaching? Why do some people have children out of wedlock? Why do some people join authoritarian organizations such as the army? Why do some people stay in abusive relationships or loveless marriages? Many of us have sometimes chosen paths which sometimes echo the very things we were trying to escape from. While I certainly don’t negate our own responsibility for our choices as adults, and certainly some of the above are indeed very valid occupations, the term choice implies that there are a number of options to choose from. While there usually always are, we may not be aware of them. I did not open my big book of career choices and choose the sex trade because it would be “easy” money. I was sleeping in a doorway on the street because I had nowhere to go and decided that no matter what I would never ever be that vulnerable and helpless again. I realised that no one was going to rescue me but me and that I was truly and utterly alone in the world. It wasn't a matter of "making money", it was more a matter of survival. People who leave the Family with money, a high school diploma, a social insurance number, a bank account, a driver’s licence and a safe place to stay, are much more aware of their options and more able to make informed decisions about their lifestyle and career choices. While I think I have made it clear that I do not agree with Exister’s elitism regarding those who left the group a decade or so ago versus those who are leaving now, it is true that the environment was very different then. Many of us left completely on our own, not with our families or friends. The group was much more isolated then as well. I didn’t know how to ride a bus or make a long distance phone call. Let alone outside the Family, North America itself was completely foreign to me and I didn’t understand anything about the culture at all. I felt as though I had been just dropped into this hostile environment from somewhere that wasn't even on the same planet. While I had just turned 20 when I left, in many ways I had the emotional development of a young teenager and didn't really process too much during this time. I just uploaded a picture of me during this period. http://www.movingon.org/gallery2.asp?ID=1287 . It's sad that I don't even remember that being taken, but thankfully there are gaps I don't remember at all at that time. More than just the obvious practical things, it took me some time to even begin to understand how wrong things had been in the Family. I left, in part, because I could not agree with the way children were being treated and the victor programs that teenagers and preteens were being put through. I had not even begun to process what had happened to me or the depth of the corruption and evil within the group. I was still defensive about the word “abuse”, as it related to me and my experiences, and still felt responsible for “failing” in some way for having left. When you are alone with your memories and there is no one to validate or affirm your own questions, especially when what you have experienced is so very alien to the average person, it can be difficult to make sense of it all and to see things clearly. As more and more young people left, many people began to see that there were other options. People left with friends, whole families left, people began to speak out and more and more information became available that helped to defuse the “Helmet” and the “Shangri-la” (you can never truly escape) indoctrination that was so deeply ingrained in me. If I die tomorrow, I will be forever grateful that I had a small part in this process through this web site. All that to say that yes, I was extremely cautious about HIV, etc. I was tested every three months and took extreme precautions. However, in some regards I didn’t really care whether I survived since I already felt that I was living on borrowed time. Jesus was supposed to rapture us all in 1993 so I had never expected to live until 20 anyway. There were countless times that I was attacked and beaten senseless or strangled by psychotic clients or overdosed on something and woke up in the emergency room. Every night I knew that I could die, but it was hard to care since my life seemed so meaningless. I think part of it was the illogical concept of guilt and sin imposed by the Family. Snorting coke was as evil as drinking coke and in my mind there was no moral distinction. I had done, what I always believed, was the worst thing imaginable by leaving the Family and the wages of sin, as I recalled was death. If had gone this far, why not just go for broke. Live dangerously and live for the moment. There’s more to my understanding of sexuality and being a woman and the concept of feminism and equality that ironically enough, I learned a lot about during this period, but this is too long already so I’ll leave it at this for now. I hope this sort of answers your question. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, June 18, 2004, 21:37 (Agree/Disagree?) Did you hear the despair and the lack of options in her post? She left at a time when it was harsh.(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Friday, June 18, 2004, 22:09 (Agree/Disagree?) I think you misunderstood Xena's question. I don't have the answer to her question because I'm not a women and haven't been in that line of work. But it seemed to me that she's asking why one would choose that profession when it's something we hated about TF. One can be driven to despair yet still abhor a line of work that relates to ones abusive past. Just as in why would exmembers choose to be drug dealers. They're ruining other teenagers lives while also having anger towards those who ruined theirs. It's a tricky question. I sorta have my own theory on this but haven't the time and eloquence to expound on it.(reply to this comment)

From You Go Grrrl Friday, June 18, 2004, 15:33 (Agree/Disagree?) So right! Today people still say "career woman." Have you ever heard anyone say "career man"? I haven't! I shocked a couple of guys once at a work party I didn't feel like attending by telling them that I broke up with my ex when he proposed to me. They were like isn't that what women are after? You say you had many rich assholes propose marriage, well I only had one, but I also felt like you say you did. The relationship had been dying a long, slow death in my view and I had to be "true to myself," or to my gender. Funny thing is, he, the GUY, then starts to literally do math in conversation to me -- the house is worth so much, the stocks so much, blah blah, it all adds up to blah million, as if he believed that women are simply money grubbers and that would change my mind. I laughed internally thinking how very much money that was and how very poor I am not to mention how I went hungry and cold as a child, but the money was meaningless. Besides, how can you want to stay with somebody who is there just for the money? I certainly could not stay with somebody who would think that's how I could be gotten. As much as I long to belong and be loved and as hurt as I am by the serial abandonments and betrayals of childhood, I am more and more protective of my independence and self-determination and I think I could live alone but I could not live unless I live free.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, June 18, 2004, 16:03 (Agree/Disagree?) "I [can] not live unless I live free" That is the essence of my personal code. Yes life is hard in the real world, yes it totally sucks sometimes to always stand by your ethics and face the consquences of that stance, yes it's difficult to not have the "big book of the right thing to do" at every given point, but I wouldn't trade it for the world. I do envy my friends who are married and have children and wonderful men who support and adore them. However, I cannot compromise who I am. I have fought so long and hard to be free. Even though every trigger I have tells me I should just submit and go along, I can't. I never could do that and I never will be able to. To be free to choose my own path and make my own decisions and to be able to connect with people whom I respect and value, to me, makes all the stress and pain and fear so definitely worth it. I treasure my freedom and I have so much respect for everyone else who has also fought so hard for it. We so totally rock. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Friday, June 18, 2004, 20:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Give me Liberty or give me Death!(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 18, 2004, 16:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I definitely agree with the sentiment of this comment, Jules, but I suffered a cognitive dissonance when I got to the statement "We so totally rock" Not that we don't rock, mind you, it just didn't seem to fit with the tone of the rest of it. I think you need to try harder to suppress the spirit of Avril Lavigne and her attempts to make you speak in hackneyed quips. I rebuke you Canada in Jesus' name!(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, June 18, 2004, 16:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess all my power tool buying at Home Depo did a talisman on me. Damn those hitchiking spirits. Avril does look cute in her Home Depo shirts though. Anyway, sorry to trigger you Joe, although I have been saying that since 01 on here. Here are some alternate suggestions: "fellow participants are absolutely amazing". "other people who have experienced what we have are completely awesome", "people who grew up in the Family and have left are astounding", "People who post on MovingOn are fabulous". You know, none of them have that ring. I still think we totally rock. :-P Deal with it, my friend.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 18, 2004, 15:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey good for you! Just wondering, why do you feel the need for anonymity when posting something like this? If anything, you should be proud. Just my take.(reply to this comment)

From moon beam Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 07:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Insecurities leading to attention seeking behaviour. (If you don't want to pay, maybe just the prize of a few shots, go to Ibiza!)(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 12:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Why is it so painful for you to imagine that women are actually attracted to this life, for other reasons than limitted choices. If I'm a sexist for advocating their freedom of choice, so be it. These are, as I have said before, NOT victims. They do what they do because they enjoy it, they do it by choice. Again, I do not deny that women are exploited by the industry; I am in no way trying to detract from their plight. the point is, the attitudes of contemporary women in the industry may actually demonstate a shift in the balance of power between the genders. Sex is no longer merely a weapon to by used by men. This is just one illustration of this process. I NEVER denied that the industry was not predominated by exploitative men. The examples that I personally recall are far from apathetic. They appear happy, vibrant, and in control; perhaps a little masculine in their perspective (obviously, not their appearance), but hey, how else would they get on in that environment. (reply to this comment)

From nobody Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 05:24 (Agree/Disagree?) This theory sounds well researched. (reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 12:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Nice to see you soften your stance in this case. Personal responsibility matters but sometimes environment limits our choices.(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 07:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Heh, I'm not sure Max Weber covered the topic of strippers. If he had though, I'm sure he'd have something interesting to say. Let me know if he does and where he does if you find it. Have you read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism?" You'd find it very interesting.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 16:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, obviously the Weber comment was a joke!(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 10:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Is that how you got started? What was your starting pay? Any tips for those who might like to follow in your footsteps?(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 18:20 (Agree/Disagree?) where I'm from, *you* tip the stripper... =) L.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 10:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Is that how you got started? What was your starting pay? Any tips?(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Monday, June 07, 2004, 00:52 (Agree/Disagree?) “This one kid I knew could build a computer from scratch with any specs you wanted on it.” I assume you mean putting OEM parts together. No offense, but almost any moron can do that. It does take a bit of experience to choose parts that will last under pressure, though. In any case, that in itself is not enough to get you a job anywhere. I agree with you though, resourceful individuals will get a good job with or without education.(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Sunday, June 06, 2004, 22:07 (Agree/Disagree?) A question refering to #6. 30k a year is good? I'm just wondering cause I live in Japan and don't know much about the US annual salaries. (reply to this comment)

From Christy Tuesday, June 08, 2004, 17:54 (Agree/Disagree?) 30K/year is not a bad place to start for someone without a college education (in some professions, even with a degree). It would probably be hard to raise a family on that salary, but it's well above the poverty line. Of course, the cost of living is very high were I live and salaries tend to reflect this. In some parts of the States, this is probably a fairly decent salary. Zena wasn't talking about the best paying jobs on the market. If I understood her correctly, she was demonstrating that people leaving TF don't have to be resigned to starting off in minimum wage jobs. 30k/yr. is well above the American minimum wage.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 08:02 (Agree/Disagree?) A more pertinent question is why don't you all go to college? A lot of people on this site seem pretty proud of the way they have lied to employers about their defficient educational background. Why don't they do something about it so they don't have to lie anymore?(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Thursday, June 10, 2004, 05:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Because college is not the only way to learn, or to gain a trade! While various ones of us have discussed ways that we've presented the training we do have to potential employers, I don't think most have lied about their education. When I find something that is worth 4 years of my time to study, then I'll go to college. Until then, I'm happy to make money and gain the far more important job experience. Lying to get a job is never a good move, as the truth is bound to come up sooner or later. But there is a big difference between lying and using terminology in your CV/interview that will highlight the skills you already possess or your ability to do the job required. A college education is not the only way to learn most trades - and that's not even beginning to address the differences between educational establishments or professors, that can greatly affect the quality of training you receive. That said, when I find something that I consider to be worth the investment of my time and energy, I'll be happy to add to my skills base through college education.(reply to this comment)

From Aita Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 11:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Exister, maybe you were lucky to leave on your own. Lots of us had to leve with families and kids. I left with a 2 year old baby and shortly after my mom left with all my brothers and sisters. I'm glad they left with me, but unfortunally, as the oldest of 12 a great deal of financial pressure fell on me. My goal is to go to college......in the mean time, I just make use of what I've got. I got a Translator Certificate in the country I live in (which was fairly easy because I already had the language skills) and I haven't had trouble finding work. It isn't something I want to do for the rest of my life but it works for now. I think it's a matter of finding something to get your feet on the ground when you leave TF. Once you've got that financial stability it's a lot easier to plan ahead.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 12:38 (Agree/Disagree?) My circumstance is not due to luck. Like some others I had the foresight and courage to leave at a time when few SG members had. We left with a great degree of physical and emotional risk and uncertainty. We had no moral support in or out of the cult. Our reward for leaving before making babies was that we could start with a relatively blank slate. Don't blame others for the fact that you mistakenly bought into the cult's fucked up, Judeo-Christian procreation ethos. That said I would also like to say that I have great respect for all of those who were willing to leave the cult in order to give their children a chance at a normal life. Ironic isn't it?(reply to this comment)

From Aita Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Exister, I think I already cleared up the mistaken usage of the word "luck". First, nowhere in my comment did I blame anyone for having a kid in the cult. Second, you have no idea why or how I came to being a mother, so do not try to suppose anything about my beliefs while in the cult. I'm not implying that it wasn't hard for you to leave. I think this has been discussed at length throughout the site. I'm not about to start a debate on who had it harder. Your initial comment was: "more pertinent question is why don't you all go to college?" That was my personal answer. Simply, because I can’t, and there are probably others like me who can’t afford to study right now.(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 21:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Some people can't go to college because they don't live in a country where the crappy education we got in TF can be made legal. No GED, no open doors of any kind. In order to go to college you have to have legal papers showing the kind of education you got. Exister do you have an idea of how hard it is not to have this fucking legal papers. I don't know how old you are but I know that there is some guys right now 17 , 18 yrs old that are trying to live now & they won't be able to even got to highschool because they don't even have a kindergarden paper legal enough to show for the education they got in TF.they are scrwed for life. they don't have anyone to help them with that & some of them, their parents are still in & they don't give a damn about their kids future.(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, June 10, 2004, 10:11 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all, trying to legitimize the Arithmetic some of you were allowed to do between JJT times is ludicrous. For all intents and purposes none of us got any education in the cult, pretty pieces of paper notwithstanding. I am sorry that your friends are getting screwed by the government of the Dominican Republic. Tell them to look on the bright side though, most paperwork from that government, like Marc Anthony's divorce decree, is inherently suspect anyway. I would suggest that they do what many other Dominicans have done and come to America. Heck, I'd even be willing to bet that the US Army is recruiting in the DR like it is in PR. If they are not military types I am sure there are other ways. Maybe one of their parents is American and they can blackmail them into helping them with the paperwork. How do you think I persuaded my draft dodger dad to sign me into the Air Force at age 17? On the other hand if they want to sit around and complain about how they are "fucked for life" then their attitude probably won't get them far regardless of the opportunities available. I couldn't get into high school at age 16 either, but after navigating the educational bureaucracy for 2 years I was able to get into the military and eventually college. I could have easily declared myself "fucked for life" when high school turned me away, and I would still be washing dishes and probably smoking crack. In the grand scheme of modern man's existential dilemma would that be so bad? Me vale madre, cabron!(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Thursday, June 10, 2004, 05:04 (Agree/Disagree?) I think the international education system is evolvong beyond this problem, certainly in the UK. I don't know where you live, but I have just finished a 1-year access course that allows me to go to university after the summer break, which is what I plan to do. I think that courses like this are meant to become pretty much mainstream worldwide, so the opportunity has not fully receded for everybody. Also, I have found it a lot easier to gain acceptance being a mature student than I might have had I gone through traditional channels. All the offers I have had were from very respectable universities, and there seems to be an acceptance that mature students are actually worth investing in, because they bring relevent life experience. (reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Thursday, June 10, 2004, 10:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Central & latin america & the carribean. the educational system is not evolving as to give cult kids the oportunity to join their legal educational system. at least not yet. The only available program that I know is, if you never had any legal education, you do two years for a six grade acreditation to be able to do 1 year of eight grade & the 2 years of highschool & 1 more for senior high. this is the fast way on this side of the world. Can you imagine how humiliating that is. The only people getting in programs like that is people from the "campo". usually older people from very poor back ground. If anyone knows any other acelerate program on this side of the world it will be good to know. with us we had my parents going all the way to the ministry of education of the country where we live for us to be able to be acepted on the level according to our age. & that was almost 9 years ago& it took a big fight on their part in other to get us in & since we where all under age it was easier than if we were older. Four of us are alredy in college & the younger ones are getting their normal legal education the way they suposed to. Maybe that is why they don't come out because they see no way they can make it. sorry spellcheck don't work(reply to this comment)

From SydneySider Thursday, June 10, 2004, 23:51 (Agree/Disagree?) We all had the same problems with our education (or lack of) in the grp. I left with 2 children and because of their ages, my wife could not work. We were in Brazil, and lived on our own from almost the day we decided to leave. It's not easy, but it can be done. But when I went looking for a job, I was confident that I could perform at a higher level than my education allowed and I did. I got promoted almost right away. I don't have time to get a proper education at Uni as I would like as I have had to provide for two kids with my wife not working (no family support at all), but now that my kids are in school, I want my wife to get her education so she can get into the job market and earn herself a good living. Don't get me wrong, I have no regrets about having kids and they weren't an accident either. I do my best to keep learning and getting certified in areas relevant to my work (Systems Admin/Project Manager). I admit the education system in SA is shit, and that was the reason we left as soon as we could: to give our kids a shot at something we never had, the chance to choose. Now they are in school, my wife is starting to work & study and I am getting plenty of new job offers and busy at the jobs I do have. I never thought I would be pulling 70K less than two years after leaving without so much as a high school diploma to my name, but I am project managing people much better "educated" than myself. This is in no way a put down of formal education. If I could I would, but while it makes things much easier, if you don't have it, its not the end of the world. In the end, if you want to learn bad enough and translate that into a good living, you will find a way. But the worst thing to do is whine about it and not even try.(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, June 10, 2004, 13:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Spare us the cop outs, please! If they want an education bad enough they can get it. They just have to suck it up and deal with it. Yes, we were all screwed over by our parents, some more than others, but there is always a way. Just because a remedial education program is "humiliating" should have no bearing on whether the opportunity is utilized or wasted. .......Again, here I go, running my mouth about personal responsibility, a topic that seems to be so unpopular lately on this site!(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, June 10, 2004, 10:14 (Agree/Disagree?) "Can you imagine how humiliating that is" Anyone too proud to get an education needs to shut the fuck up and quit whining!(reply to this comment)

From highonhigh Saturday, June 12, 2004, 18:48 (Agree/Disagree?) When I read some of this posts it amazes me how some of the people in this site inspite of coming out of TF a long time ago still carrie so much of TF attitude. Some here are so much like Family leadership condensending, arrogant,judgemental..... it makes me wounder who is(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 10, 2004, 11:09 (Agree/Disagree?) I object to your statement, exister. Those of us in the "first world" may have had a struggle but we also had a better system to give us an opportunity if we fought. I am saddenned that those of us who *have* struggled in certain areas cannot be more compassionate toward those who had other struggles. You are proud that you left younger than others and alone, so you feel others had it cushier. Can't you see how we have it cushier as far as opportunities than some of our peers in the Third World? It is very wrong of The Family to have left our 3d world peers so unequipped, and I wish we could have more empathy for the humiliation they have to endure in the rough educational circumstanced. I agree that one should fight to overcome obstacles and I have done so and I have had to swallow my pride often, but they have every right to indict The Family for its gross negligence and they deserve damages and disgorgement of the unjust enrichment for the labor they were forced to do instead of being educated. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Thursday, June 10, 2004, 19:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Sympathizing isn't always the best way to help someone and can be mistaken for compassion. Sometimes you gotta tell them where it's at. If no one does then how will they wake up to reality. I believe we all experience this "humiliation"; just that some of us don't run from it. (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, June 11, 2004, 03:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Ultimately, our past provides us with a degree of humiliation that's almost incomparable; some people will inevitably see us as life's casualties. This in no way means we have to be casualties. We are already so irreversibly altered from the status quo that full assymilation into the norm is probably highly unlikely. This does not make us necessarily dysfunctional, and in any case we shouldn't give a toss what the rest of the world thinks about us and what we intend to achieve. Furthermore, if there is anything that any ex-TF person can or should have taken away from their experience, it is the ability to put your back in and walk against the tide regardless of opposition, so to speak. We all understand the subjugation by conformity, and if any haven't then their experiences are a true waste. Ultimately, we have to live with the possiblity of inexorable dysfunctional facets written into our lives; they need not govern us.(reply to this comment)

From Baxter Friday, June 11, 2004, 03:36 (Agree/Disagree?) 'We all understand the dangers of subjugation by conformity'(reply to this comment)

From katrim4 Thursday, June 10, 2004, 10:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Absolutely agreed Exister! While I agree that it can be humiliating to have to start from scratch, who cares? Nobody except for you. I think it would be far more embarassing to wake up at the age of 30 and discover that you are still doing what you were doing at 20 because of a lack of education. It's hard work to get an education. Especially as you get older and you have more and more things to take care of. What it comes down to, in my opinion, is personal priorities. If you can't give up something else you're doing to go through the process of catching up with your education, whatever it is your doing must be pretty damn important. Of course it's more difficult if you have children. Nobody said it was easy. That doesn't mean that it can't be done. And in the long run, I would think that you would be teaching your children through example just how important and valuable an education is. (reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 10, 2004, 14:52 (Agree/Disagree?) I would hesitate to make such generalized sweeping statements. I am one who sympathizes with those that struggle to find a way to get an education. I have four children, two are in school, and the two youngest stay home with me while my husband works two jobs--Mon-Fri for one, and the weekend for the other--to give us a comfortable life. I assure you, we do not have the time or resources at this time to be pursuing additional education. My "personal priorities" are to give my children a loving and stable home with the best care possible, and while showing them how important and valuable an education is is definitely a part of that care, they also need me to be there for them, not to just dump them in a childcare situation so that I can run off and look out for number one. I am not saying that anyone who puts their children in daycare so that they can go to school is selfish by any means. On the contrary. But I do think that you should take into consideration that in different situations there are many different reasons catching up on education has to wait. You mentioned it coming down to personal priorities, but your tone was implying that any priority other than one's education was a meaningless and frivolous one. In my case it IS "pretty damn important." And when I have the opportunity to resume my education—like when the kids are all in school, for example—I imagine that I might face some humiliation myself due to being older or being a mom, for example. You say, who cares? Well, considering that school is often almost as much a social experience as it is an educational experience, I would say that some might care if they are being laughed at for being so far behind scholastically. When they are trying to make friends and integrate into the regular world, yet are being shunned for something that is not their fault, I imagine that that could be quite difficult and frustrating to face. I just think that we should be more understanding and sympathetic to those struggling to start over in a new life, regardless of the choices they made or didn’t make. True, it might not be your experience, but at least we should not make judgments on other’s situations too quickly when we have not been where they are. It is very easy to say, “Well, I did it, so everyone else should quit whining and do it too!” But we all are building our lives at different speeds and in different directions, so there’s really not a way that we assume that someone who is not pursuing their education as their main priority at this moment is a loser or lazy or unmotivated or immature. But, besides all that, I heartily congratulate all of you who have overcome obstacles to reach your goals! I admire you all, with a tiny bit of envy mixed in! J (reply to this comment)

From katrim4 Thursday, June 10, 2004, 16:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Blah, blah, blah. So you have four children, so your husband works two jobs. It's still about priorities. Having a comfortable life is a priority for you if that is what your willing to work for. Nobody said they were frivolous priorities. What's up with people taking things so personally? I left the cult with a daughter, I know it's difficult. The single mom on the other computer probablly thinks she has it harder than you do. So what. If you think that you cannot live life without cable, you will find a way to pay for cable. If you feel that you cannot live life without an education, you will find a way to get an education. I'm 26 and just started school a couple of quarters ago. I've been through all the denial stages making every single excuse possible. The point is, if you absolutely want to go to school, you will. "I imagine that I might face some humiliation myself due to being older or being a mom, for example. You say, who cares? Well, considering that school is often almost as much a social experience as it is an educational experience, I would say that some might care if they are being laughed at for being so far behind scholastically. When they are trying to make friends and integrate into the regular world, yet are being shunned for something that is not their fault, I imagine that that could be quite difficult and frustrating to face. " On that point I couldn't disagree more. To quote a favourite saying "Those who care don't matter, and those who matter don't care." P.S. If you want to minimize the time you spend away from your kids and still begin an education, I highly recomend looking into online courses offered by your local colleges. Unless of course sleeping is a priority for you too. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Friday, June 11, 2004, 09:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Damn straight, Katrina! What Miss Anonymous needs to realize is that the "comfortable life" that she and her husband are putting at the top of their priority list is going to be much harder to maintain in the coming years. The income gap between the educated and the uneducated is continually growing, and as technology advances, it can only get wider. Also, why disparage daycare? My younger siblings loved it, and it enabled both my parents to work and provide us with a marginally "comfortable" life. [Insert profound closing statement here] (reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, June 10, 2004, 15:30 (Agree/Disagree?) "Well, considering that school is often almost as much a social experience as it is an educational experience" Wrong! Those who treat school as a social experience usually perfrom poorly anyway. It seems you have watched one too many teen angst films. Had you gone to high school you probably would have been a cheerleader. Move past the high school mindset (hard, considering you never went to high school, I know) and you will find the time and motivation to get educated. When I took the GED I sat next to a middle aged Mexican farm worker. I was not embarrassed. Instead I felt a certain solidarity with him. He got fucked over by socio-economic reality, I got fucked over by the cult, why should either of us have been embarrassed? (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Friday, June 11, 2004, 11:04 (Agree/Disagree?) And by this one little comment from you exister, I suddenly feel a small twinge of respect for you. I certainly agree that I had a lot more respect and things in common with those that were in school to actually learn regardless of their backgrounds than those who were just silly little rich teenagers pretending to be late on an assigment because their "printer was out of ink".(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 10, 2004, 16:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh for crying out loud! I simply meant that school is often a place to meet and make friends. It is terribly arrogant of you to assume so much about me from one sentence. You assume that 1) I have “watched one too many teen angst films.” 2) I never went to high school, 3) I would have been a cheerleader, 4) a “high school mindset” is keeping me from having time and motivation to get educated. That’s quite a lot of bulls**t to be throwing around based on one sentence. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Thursday, June 10, 2004, 16:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Well, no offense, but your statement was a bit naive and did smack of the "video night" mindset. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, June 10, 2004, 15:18 (Agree/Disagree?) "I would say that some might care if they are being laughed at for being so far behind scholastically. " Isn't this what I am routinely accused of doing? Maybe you should take your pick - do you want to be laughed at in the classroom by some jerks who are probably just as uneducated as you are, or do you want to get laughed at for the rest of your life? Good luck.(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:14 (Agree/Disagree?) " you have no idea why or how I came to being a mother" Just in case she's right, let me help you out exister. When a man and a woman love each other.....(reply to this comment)

From I don't understand you... Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Why is it that you have so little respect for other people? I usually don't respond or reply to comments or articles on this site, even though I have found some to be pretty interesting. But, everytime I read something from either you, Exister or Wolf you guys are putting people down or trying to make everyone else seem stupid. Joe, I have read your comments and you seem to be a very intelligent person and I mean that. I am 100% sure that you know exactly what Aita was refering to. I'm a mother myself and my daughter is my life (she was not born in th) and life has been good for me outside of tf but, to be honest with you, I am upset by some of the comments I see posted today. I agree with Aita, some of us just can't go to college, work and take care of our children and yet that does not cut our chances of building a good life for our families. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Thursday, June 10, 2004, 11:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Say what you like, but if Joe and Ex weren’t around this site would be another cultish reunion party. To give credit where credit is due, if it weren’t for the endless flow of virtually meaningless dialogue, the wise guys would take their narcissistic wit elsewhere.(reply to this comment)

From Whoops Thursday, June 10, 2004, 12:34 (Agree/Disagree?) We'd better keep up the flow of virtually meaningless dialogue (and pray spellcheck is broken), lest Joe and Ex miss out on their narcissistic fun!!(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 10, 2004, 12:12 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't understand what you're saying. How would it be a cultish reunion party? Is the "credit where credit is due" praise or blame, and to whom is it due? Who provides the "endless floe of virtually meaningless dialogue," and would the "wise guys" (Joe & exister?) taking their "narcissistic wit elsewhere" be a bad thing?(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Thursday, June 10, 2004, 12:47 (Agree/Disagree?) “Good” and “bad” are usually matters of perspective. From my perspective, things get cultic when everybody sits around and cries on each other’s virtual shoulders. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, June 10, 2004, 12:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Who am I? What am I doing here? What is the question mark for? Why do wiseguy and wiseman mean opposite things? Why doesn't Joe H care!?? Aghhhh!(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, June 10, 2004, 12:19 (Agree/Disagree?) I think the meaningless dialogue he refers to is the tiresome stream of anonymous postings like this one. You're not saying anything spicy so the only reason you have for your anonymity is cowardice. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Thursday, June 10, 2004, 18:31 (Agree/Disagree?) What's with all the anonymous posting? When the name was left blank I thought it was Dani, but now it seems another female is doin this. (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, June 10, 2004, 12:46 (Agree/Disagree?) MMM, spicy! Reminds me of planters hot nuts! Curry, chiles, tacos! PT Fucking L!(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 14:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Jesus, can't you people take a joke?(reply to this comment)

From Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 17:29 (Agree/Disagree?) We are not Jesus people!(reply to this comment)

From Uptight Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 14:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Only when I'm very, very drunk. ;)(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Amen, exister! On a more humorous note, I find it even more bothersome that the breeders would refer to those of us who left without kids as "lucky" because my own childless status is largely due to my never having "gotten lucky" while in the group. Some would argue that this was luckier in the long run, but you never had to go through 4 years of high school without sex and an unshakeable fear of systemite girls. (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Friday, June 11, 2004, 11:10 (Agree/Disagree?) OMG!!! Ha Ha fucking Ha! You are so hilarious! I feel so bad for your 4 years of loneliness and fear. One more thing: if you refer to people with kids as "breeders" one more time I think I'll kick your funny little ass!(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Thursday, June 10, 2004, 05:24 (Agree/Disagree?) Let us stop for a minute and be honnest with ourselves. How many single dads did you see in the Family? If you did end up breeding would you have stayed with your child, or would you have left the mother to fend for herself? Personally the father of my children has stayed with me but I have had many other hardships since leaving that has prevented me from going to school. I think we need to stop being so judgemental about why some of us have been unable to go to school. And for those of us who have not gone let us not be so defensive. This is my life and I am living it how I see best. (reply to this comment)

From Elle Friday, June 11, 2004, 14:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Well said, cheeks!(reply to this comment)

From jez Thursday, June 10, 2004, 02:13 (Agree/Disagree?) If you left when you were 26, then chances are those systemite girls would've been far more terrified of you. As for your reference to 'breeders' (of which club I am proudly a member) you are lucky not to have children, for a start you wouldn't have the time or energy necessary to contribute so much to this site, it would otherwise be spent on the tedium of parental life. Getting yourself educated would've been even harder than I'm sure it was for you.(reply to this comment)

From Reality Check Thursday, June 10, 2004, 10:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Exactly Jez! Too bad some of us didn't have our mommies and daddies "wake up" and take us out of the cult like Joe H's parents did. Some of us had to wait until we were of legal age and the homes would let us leave. Joe - you're lucky, your folks left and gave you a life! You got to go to high school because of the choices THEY MADE!!! So don't go giving us this high and mighty talk about leaving the cult and the decisions we've been brave enough to make on our own. Oh, and I did go to college (with a family to support too)!!(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Thursday, June 10, 2004, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) If you want to make this about my parents, let me just say that my mom is prettier than yours and my dad could beat up your dad. Oh, and they make a lot more money and live in a better neighborhood then yours do. But seriously, why the animosity towards me? I haven't been giving out the "high and mighty talk about leaving the cult." I KNOW I was lucky to leave at a young age, but that doesn't mean I haven't worked hard to get to where I am today. And for the fifth time, what part of "on a more humorous note" don't you understand? I was making a joke!! Jesus, the cult fucked you guys over in more ways than one! I don't know what you people need more - an education or a sense of humor, but I suggest you get both and quit your whining. (reply to this comment)

From jez Thursday, June 10, 2004, 11:08 (Agree/Disagree?) From the age of 7 I was convinced my dad would leave and take us out, as I'd realised by then what a load of pants TF was. By 15 I realised it was a pipe dream as he'd never admit to being wrong, our family was split up by the powers that be, with my mum and all 8 of us kids put out in the field. I tried to leave at 16, but was beaten and made to fast until I 'changed my mind', this I did convincingly realising I'd have to wait 'til I was 18. By which time I had a 1 year old daughter and pregnant wife, we sneaked out of the home in Manila at 4 a.m. with $10 to our name and haven't looked back. I wish I'd had the opportunity to study back then, but it was hard enough to make a living in PI so I've only recently come to uni in the UK and have 1 year left. I would advise anyone to do their utmost to get an education, it can be wicked fun too!(reply to this comment)

From exister Thursday, June 10, 2004, 10:25 (Agree/Disagree?) Go ahead, pick on Joe. Then I'll repeat what he says, and you won't be able to say shit to me. I left alone at 16 and my parents are as rabid as ever.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:04 (Agree/Disagree?) Perhaps the fact that I was always alone on "Sharing Nights" has something to do with my current "lucky" status. In retrospect it was fortuitous that my bad apple status precluded me from Teen Hanky Panky Night. When I recall the zest with which you all sallied forth to your fornication episodes I feel less pity than I did in my last comment.(reply to this comment)

From some others Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 11:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Aita, I agree that I was lucky not to become the breadwinner for 11 siblings and a baby, but not all of us who left on our own merely got out because we were "lucky." Me and some of my friends ran away on our own when we were minors in a foreign country and it was dangerous. At the time it was also rare for youth to leave The Family. Just a reminder that some people were on their own but not quite "lucky."(reply to this comment)

From Aita Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 12:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, maybe "lucky" wasn't the right word to use here. I realized this after I had already posted the comment. I'm actually lucky to have my whole family out, I'm glad my brothers have a better chance than I did to make it out here. But the point is, own your own is a lot easier to get started. That's what I was trying to tell exister.....(reply to this comment)

From some others Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I understand what you're saying, but in fact it was not easy at all to get started on my own. And here I am talking about on my *own,* not like people who had an older sibling on the outside to go to. Survival as a runaway is hella risky in some places. Later, once I did survive and get my head above water I may have had the advantage of concentrating on my own life, but it was not assured that I would even get that chance.(reply to this comment)

From Aita Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, like I said above. I don't want to get into a discussion on who had it harder or easier. I think we all agree that we all had it hard. The original issue here was why can't everyone go to college like exister did, which I answered based on my experience.(reply to this comment)

From Aita Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 13:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Ok, like I said above. I don't want to get into a discussion on who had it harder or easier. I think we all agree that we all had it hard. The original issue here was why can't everyone go to college like exister did, which I believe I answered based on my experience.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 09:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Believe it or not some people actually have to work while they’re in college.(reply to this comment)

From exister Wednesday, June 09, 2004, 12:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I worked 40 - 60 hrs a week the entire time I was in college, and for my first 2 years of college I was active duty military. So I will tell you what I tell my students when they try to use their employment as an excuse: "Shut up an sod off!"(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Thursday, June 03, 2004, 08:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Some other careers which I know of that (ex-)Family members have taken up include IT Support (and other non-programming computer roles), setting up import/export businesses (often using the contacts they made while living abroad in TF) and a chef (getting paid $1,000 p/w - and he wasn't even that good of a cook!)(reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 07:55 (Agree/Disagree?) "I don't think ANYONE who was raised in TF is that ignorant or should accept minimum wage no matter how little education they received." I wouldn't be too sure about that. How intellectually fucked do you have to be to buy into the Family's crap? Anyone who ever did spent that portion of their life with a large part of their intellectual faculties shut down and unstimulated. I will defer to the countless Psychology majors on this point, but it's my understanding that an understimulated brain fails to develop. As for confidence, that's all a bluff anyway.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, May 31, 2004, 23:51 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree we are definitely worth more than a lot have thought - due to their lack of confidence and self-belief!(reply to this comment)

from Wolf Monday, May 31, 2004 - 11:58 (Agree/Disagree?) My first paycheck was about $18600 after working over 3 months on a fishing boat. (reply to this comment)

From Zed Monday, June 07, 2004, 01:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Did you leave Dallas and go to Alaska for this job in early 2000?(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Monday, June 07, 2004, 10:29 (Agree/Disagree?) No, I'm not an Edson.(reply to this comment)

from Ne Oublie Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:09 (Agree/Disagree?) My first job was a Temp admin role in a Charity for 4 days, I was paid £7/hr. My next job was in Anti-Money Laundering Financial Compliance at a multi-national investment bank, paying £10/hr. A couple months later I was up to £12.50/hr. I've only been out of the Family for 9 months. (reply to this comment)

From exister Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 07:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Good for fucking you! Please hit us with more of these inspiring and motivational digits!(reply to this comment)

From Joe H Monday, May 31, 2004, 16:13 (Agree/Disagree?) What's really hilarious about this post is that you seem to think you're bragging. Having left the Family as late as you did is something to be ashamed of, and the wages of sin that you think are so high hardly negate that fact. The nine month time period is especially profound, I think, because talking with you is frequently like talking to a newborn baby. Maybe when you grow up and get a real job (not to mention a life) we can start pretending to respect you. Until then, just try to tone it down a notch - the other pencil pushers at the bank are getting really fed up with you. (reply to this comment)

From from unashamed Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree with Vic. Why is it so shameful to have left the Fam later then others? I too, was in until 1999.-- Altho I had left in my heart years before. It's difficult for some to make the dive and leave especially when there are other factors involved like spouses who want to stay in. Unfortunately, Joe, we all didn't have the pleasure of our parents taking us out of the group when we were just kids like you. Some of us had to figure out how to do that on our own.-- Must have been nice when your mommy and daddy left in 1995 (or was it "94?), and took you with them cause you were their child. (reply to this comment)

From where's the love? Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 17:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Why is it that some people on this site who consider themselves lucky to have left years before others are the very ones who are rude, critical, often very offensive. They try so hard to make themselves look good by putting others down. Trying to show off and brag about everything. They're so full of themselves its pathetic! (reply to this comment)

From Joe H Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 17:26 (Agree/Disagree?) The person showing off and bragging was Ne Oublie, so I censured him. Other than that, I've always been very nice to you "late-bloomers," for lack of a better term.(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, June 07, 2004, 07:44 (Agree/Disagree?) "Late bloomers" is a good choice Joe. I would also like to add the following words to describe those who left in their 20s and 30s. Enjoy. Accomplices, Collaborators, Henchmen, Sell-outs, Zombies. I could continue, but this is probably enough insult for now.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Monday, June 07, 2004, 08:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Q: How do you spot the guy with a donkey fetish? A: He’s always pointing out what an ass everyone is.(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, June 07, 2004, 09:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Your puns are unbearably sophomoric.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Monday, June 07, 2004, 09:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Especially when compared with an awe-inspiring vocabulary like “collaborators”, “henchmen” and “accomplices” (maybe you oughta go easy on the low budget cop flicks).(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, June 07, 2004, 09:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I happen to be a B-movie connoisseur so your comment once again misses its goal of offending me. Try again...(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Monday, June 07, 2004, 10:27 (Agree/Disagree?) “B-movie connoisseur” – Is that kind of like a 61 cent wine taster, or a guy with a thing for cheap-ass hookers?(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, June 07, 2004, 10:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah, kind of, though I'm not much into sulfites; and while I enjoy observing the street behavior of cheap-ass hookers I don't patronize them. How is the cheap-ass hooker scene where you're at. Any of them worth watching?(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Monday, June 07, 2004, 11:09 (Agree/Disagree?) The guys around here are way too ugly to make watching any fun. But from what I hear low-budget pussy comes in pretty much any shape, size and color in these parts. And it’s free if your car is worth more than a grand or so.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Thursday, June 03, 2004, 08:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe, if you really think that quoting my salary (in an entirely factual tone - as I did) is 'showing off and bragging', then I have to question your deductive skills. In any case, I can hardly see why bragging - on anyone's part - should merit censure. While what I said could have been mistaken as bragging, it is still a far cry from the insults you freely dished out in response. (I'm not complaining, btw, merely pointing out the contradiction of you attempting to claim the moral high ground in this instance.)(reply to this comment)

From Vicky Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 01:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Joe, £12.50/hr is quite a good wage for the UK, for a 'normal' person working at a 'normal' job, at least. US wages are generally a lot higher, so it's important to take that into account. And I wish we would stop it with the whole 'people who left TF in their twenties should be ashamed' business! I left officially a year and a half ago, at the age of 26, because it took me a very long time to shake off the beliefs which I had held very strongly all my life. Yes, I do wish I had had the strength of character to leave much earlier and I often berate myself for wasting so many years hanging in the balances, but I really don't need others adding to my frustration with my life by judging me for something that I can't change. And as far as Ne Oublie's circumstances, I agree that he should feel proud of the fact that he's managed to get his foot onto the employment ladder at a better point than a lot of others. It isn't easy to make it here.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, May 31, 2004, 17:48 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks for the tip - I'll try not to annoy my colleagues too much, Joe. Whatever position I may have been able to achieve had I left TF earlier, I still think that I am entitled to have pride in my accomplishments, whether or not they measure up to others'. I don't think my current salary is 'so high', rather I recognise that I am making progress in my career, which my salary is increasing to represent. However, I do not consider myself to yet be in a position about which to brag.(reply to this comment)

From Monday, May 31, 2004, 12:54 (Agree/Disagree?) May I point out that The Family had given you one of the very few jobs that could count as good experience outside, in one of their "corporate" fronts. Few peons in TF have that luxury. No wonder you had relevant experience for your second job! (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 03:46 (Agree/Disagree?) What's with all the anomymous posting lately??? I can totally understand that people may want to remain anonymous if they are discussing intimate issues and things that are difficult to talk about, but come on, guys, if you're just making quick comments (And especially if they are mildly accusatory or obviously challenging) for goodness sake give yourself some credibility by taking responsibility for your views! Trying to be confrontational while hiding behind an alias just makes you seem unsure of yourself. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Thursday, June 03, 2004, 07:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Perhaps they are tired of people jumping down their throats. Personally I stand behind my comments and rarely post anonymously.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 03, 2004, 11:40 (Agree/Disagree?) In some situations people attack the profile/usser name rather than the argument.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Thursday, June 03, 2004, 08:19 (Agree/Disagree?) I think the point is that if you're not prepared to stand by what you've said, then is it really worth saying?(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, June 03, 2004, 08:18 (Agree/Disagree?) whenever somebody jumps down my throat i have a gag reflex(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, May 31, 2004, 12:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Another Anonymous! Christy asked a question - I answered it. Whether you say that I was 'given' the job by the Family, or that I 'earned' it is to quibble over terminology, but I would definitely use the latter.(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Monday, May 31, 2004, 19:31 (Agree/Disagree?) How exactly does one "earn" a "job" in TF pray tell? Kissing butt must have been really hard work for you or something... Note: this is my first comment on this topic(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, May 31, 2004, 23:45 (Agree/Disagree?) If kissing butt was all that was involved, then apparently you would have been a major success - since it comes so easy to you!(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 19:39 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd rather be a doorkeeper in the house of Mammon than kiss another CRO's butt, but that's just me. :) By the way, thanks for noticing: my butt-kissing skills *are* incredible, but I still don't count it as work. :) (reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Thursday, June 03, 2004, 08:40 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm glad you've taken the positive decision to stop kissing CRO butt! Does that mean you have desisted from all butt-kissing, or do you still reserve the prerogative to kiss non-CRO butt in the interests of maintaining your doorman's job? (Or perhaps just to keep your 'incredible' skills honed?)(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Thursday, June 03, 2004, 17:39 (Agree/Disagree?) So kind of you to be glad for me! Though in my case, a blade seldom used infrequently needs honing. Thanks in any case for the interest. :) But enough about me. In your numerous sub-posts you never did get around to mentioning how you "earned" your Family "job". Was it your "Brokenness"? "Yieldedness"? "Closeness to the Lord"? Praised-Jeezus-during-sex-the-loudest-ness? Kindly elucidate, lest I continue to suspect that a Family Leader's butt and your lips were well acquainted. :)(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Friday, June 04, 2004, 03:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Ha! Anyone who knows me wouldn't even have to ask that question! (But I guess you don't, so I'll answer it in this case.) The fact of the matter is that as with any other organisation which wishes to achieve success TF is keen to give such positions to people who have proven their competence - that is something which I have consistently done ever since my school years, and continue to do now in my career. So, what did I 'do'? The short answer is that I was hard-working and consientious. I didn't muck about, and got on with doing my job efficiently - proving that I was the best person for it... as well as for the next (better) job that came up.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 20:20 (Agree/Disagree?) "I'd rather be a doorkeeper in the house of Mammon than kiss another CRO's butt" Amen to that. With a nick like Roughneck I somehow highly doubt your butt kissing skills are up to par. Plus you're Canadian. We don't kiss butt. We form a committee/seek counsel/procrastinate and then we do what we were going to do anyways. Usually by then the crisis is over and we can be act surprised and supportive. We almost split our country in WW I over the draft [conscription] and the fact that the majority of the overseas cannon fodder were Canadians. We learned from that. Specifying my first paycheck would be irrelevant. Describing what I did to get that would humiliate my grandparents who have apparently read this web site for the past 2 years. Thank you Google.(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, June 07, 2004, 07:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Did you just find out aboot your grandparents reading this site? Google rocks!(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Wednesday, June 02, 2004, 20:06 (Agree/Disagree?) Aw, Jules, do you really have to give Joe more fodder for his anti-Canada prejudices? Not that you aren't bang-on, though. Don't forget though, in my case I have polluting foreign blood that much improves my butt-kissing abilities. (Hey that's my excuse..and I'm sticking to it..unless you can convince me otherwise..) Offtopic, but which party are you voting for in the upcoming federal election? Myself, I say Steve Harper can have my vote when he pries it from my cold, dead fingers... ;) I just don't think Kang would be any better than the Kodos we've got now though (pardon the Simpsons reference). The thought of voting for the NDP still gives me the shudders (it's a BC thing), and the Greens are, well, the Greens (read: possibly mad). What's a guy to do? I may just have to stick to the sage advice, "when in doubt, vote against". What about yourself? (reply to this comment)

From night_raver Thursday, June 03, 2004, 04:36 (Agree/Disagree?) So are you saying that Aussies are butt-kissers? Or kissed more CRO-ass than other nationalities?(reply to this comment)

From roughneck Thursday, June 03, 2004, 07:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey, thanks a bunch for shooting holes in my (albeit jocular) justification, Gio.. :) (reply to this comment)

From johnny canuck Wednesday, June 02, 2004, 22:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Very offtopic. Me, I'm voting NDP. You're spot on about the Conservatives. Even Joe Clark, leader of the 'old' conservatives said he would vote for the Liberals --as he said, 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't' -- Harper. I hate the Liberals and their corruption, so I'm voting NDP -- protest vote. They can't fuck up any worse than the Liberals have -- $1 billion for a gun registry that doesn't work? Sad that Svend developed a case of sticky fingers -- what was THAT all about? So Jules -- who gets the nod from you???(reply to this comment)

From neez Tuesday, June 01, 2004, 16:04 (Agree/Disagree?) /me pulls out the dictionary of common everyday terminology.. ahh fuck it..(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, May 31, 2004, 23:45 (Agree/Disagree?) If kissing butt was all that was involved, then apparently you would have been a major success - since it comes so easy to you!(reply to this comment)