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from duszka Monday, August 16, 2004 - 23:24 (Agree/Disagree?) i finally read your story my dearets beets,and ,wow.....i'm so sorry you had to go through it....i send you all my love (reply to this comment)

from Beets Monday, August 09, 2004 - 09:03 (Agree/Disagree?) whatever cheeks intentions are on here, I know what she did, I know what she said and I know that whatever is going on that i did not cuncoct 'fictitious' memories of her in that home. I had no need to because I had real ones to deal with for everyday that she was in childcare. My intentions were never to make cheeks look bad, although my composure was nearly entirley lost one she openly and publically denied my pain and suffering. I need that apology and I have said it before and I'm sick of waiting for it. This is the apology that she sent me to get me to shut up, as she has clearly shown that she feels she has nothing to be sorry for and is now demanding me to apologize. I will apologize. I'll apologize to your children, I'll apologize for you not being able to get all of my 'rowdy behavior' out of me cause I am clearly still a trouble maker. You would not do this so I will have to be satisfied with this. Dear Sarita, It took me a few days as you have notticed to sit down and write this e-mail. I decided to send it directly to you as I felt it would be inappropriate to leave it right on the site. I sincerly apoligise for any and all wrong doing I did to you. I did not care to be in childcare and may have taken that out on you children. That is not to excuse any wrong doing on my part. I used the methods I was taught and did not see the damage it may cause. I hope you can find it in my heart to forgive me and my lack of humanity. Sincerly, Merrily (reply to this comment)

From neez Tuesday, August 10, 2004, 06:37 (Agree/Disagree?) guilty(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, August 09, 2004, 09:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Merrily as you have pointed out liability is a very serious offence in ‘the States’. Beets will always keep this email, which states that you did indeed take care of her and proves that you a liar. I suggest you think very carefully before attempting to discredit her again. P.S. Sending private emails that admit to guilt, to not appease people, they just show what kind of person you are. (reply to this comment)

from Lauren Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 11:18 (Agree/Disagree?) When the current debate between Cheeks & Beets and supporting members of either side first came up I really wanted to say something, but I didn’t. Mainly because Jules is one of my dearest friends and I was concerned that because of the obvious connection to her that my comments would only add fuel to the fire or distract from the real issues by having it seem that now the “friends” were jumping on to the bandwagon as well. For that reason I thought about posting this anonymously, but in the end figured that wasn’t a good idea. Somehow, in all of the minute details of who was where at what time and took care of who for how long, the big issue continues to get circumvented: There is a little girl who has been hurting for a very long time and she needs closure. That any of us could try to place blame on a child or claim that her trauma was all in her head simply astounds me. Perhaps some of us have forgotten the issue of power: That is, who had it and who didn’t. From the age of 12 in the Family I took care of kids endlessly. Sometimes those “kids” weren’t all that much younger than I was. God knows I tried to be fair, I tried to do my best, but that’s beside the point. In the position I was in, I held the power and the kids under me didn’t. They had no rights. That I had no rights either made no difference to them and how they saw the world, I was the figure of authority to them. I might as well have been God. I’d like to think that I remember my time on childcare so very well, I’d like to think that I never actually spanked a kid and as it is, I don’t remember ever having done it. But one thing I can rest assured of, is that even though I may not remember ever having spanked a kid, that kid is most certainly going to remember it. Because I held the power. It may have just been a day in my life – part of my normal routine – the memory faded with the sands of time. But for that child’s aching buttocks, the memory is strong and clear & the fear and terror of me and the power I held over them is not something easily forgotten either. I remember a specific incident that took place when I was 12 years old. I was responsible not only for a large group of kids, but for a mealtime scenario that involved three classes, innumerable plates of food and a very crowded situation. One kid was acting up and I sent him to the corner. And then I forgot about him. What was probably about 45 minutes later, one of the other kids told me that this boy was standing in the corner crying. And so I went over to him, asked him if he was ready to behave and sent him to his seat. For all I know that situation traumatized the poor kid. He may have hated me, may have lived in fear of me, I don’t know, because at the time I did not apologize to him or tell him that it was a mistake. The only reason that I even remember this particular moment of time is because I felt so incredibly guilty about what I had done. I was 12 years old. I should never have had that kind of responsibility, but there it happened, and it was my fault. And if it ever comes up, all I can truly say is that I am sorry. I held the power. Some years ago I had the interesting experience of running into the man who had been my family’s childcare worker when I was 5 years old. Generally speaking, he had been a very good caretaker and I didn’t have anything against him. But I did distinctly remember a couple of occasions where I had been unjustly punished. Those occasions are still etched in my memory. At the time of “catching up”, I mentioned these couple of times – sort of in jest. This former childcare worker got very quiet and looked at me and said, “You know, I really don’t remember that. But it makes me cry to think that I did that to you and I am very sorry.” Those two stories bring together (in a round about sort of way) the point that I’m trying to get at: I think it would behoove any of us who at any time in our lives had authority over anyone in the group – at any age -- to remember that in the cruel world that we grew up in, those on the receiving end of our authority will have memories quite different from those of our own. It’s very easy for those who had authority to claim that they were kind, just, protective or just plain brainwashed. But it’s not about us – it’s not about the people who had the authority. It is about those who didn’t. The point is not what we thought we were, but the effect that we had on those in our care. If it ever came to my attention that a child that had at one time been in my care and was terrified and traumatized by me – no matter how absurd the accusations may seem to me – the fact is, I had the power over that child and she knew it & it is my responsibility to do anything and everything in I can to make the past right. I cannot change the past, I may not even remember it the way he/she might, but I can apologize for it & I can mean it sincerely. I am extremely irritated and in some ways, quite furious, with the comments that have been made below about children and their memories – especially when this particular child (now teenager) has been told or insinuated to that her trauma is pretty much in her head. In a lifestyle such as ours was, where the children were herded together in groups, the caretakers young, inexperienced and often stressed and taxed to their limits, and where discipline was meted out as a mater of course without much thought to long-term repercussions, the chances of a caretaker forgetting what he/she had done to a child are much, much higher than a child imaging something being done to her that wasn’t. Beets, I am very very sorry that through the telling of your story you have been revictimized. I hope that you are able to find peace and closure to your pain. Please know that I believe you. Cheeks, I have heard very nice things about you and I believe that you are a wonderful person and that you would not knowingly inflict pain on anyone. Understandably, Beets’ comments must come as an overwhelming shock to you – especially in such a public forum. My heart is with you as you sort through your own issues and pain at this time. (reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Monday, August 09, 2004, 19:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I have been reading all the comments made recently and have been wanting to comment on beets/cheeks situation. I felt that Lauren's comment really hit home on what I was thinking about my personal situation. I was shoved into childcare at an early age. I can remember taking care of kids as early as 11 years old. I was taught to cook at the age of 10 and stayed home alone with 8 kids while everyone was out "witnessing" when I was 14. I had little or no time for myself. I was forced to become an "cult" adult at a very early age. My life as a teenager was VERY stressful and overbearing. I remember drinking several cups of strong coffee at 13 to keep me going for my long and strenuous days. I remember being sent to a DF home back in 1987 with my parents to help bring this family back to DO status as they called it back then. This family had been ex-comed for having the worse behaved children I have ever seen in my life at that time! They had 8 or nine kids (the oldest one being about 10 or 11) the mother was pregnant and would run around the house screaming at the top of her lungs with a belt in her hand trying to hit anyone she could. The kids would drive her insane and she had absolutely zero control of these wild kids! Guess who they decided to put in charge of caring for these kids? me! These kids saw me as just another kid, (which I was) so therefore they had no respect for me. I don't blame them either. Everyone expected me to grow up so fast and take on so much that often times it became a burden I was not able to bear! When I would complain that the kids would not listen to me, I was told that I wasn't doing my job, that I wasn't spanking them like I should. I was never trained how to care for kids. I was always beaten in anger and treated unfairly. There are a few instances where I think I punished a child in my care unfairly by not listening to both sides of the story before making my judgement call or by slapping them on the arm when they were running wild around the house. I mainly just yelled all the time. But looking back, I was just a child carrying the world on my shoulders and having to live up to the standard of discipline that the adults were expecting of me, (which somehow I never attained). I was always being told that the kids were misbehaving because I couldn't control them. But what do you expect out of a tired, overworked, unappreciated 14 year old??? I never abused a child sexually or beat them with anything. I have traumatic memories of small children being beaten black and blue by their parents that still haunt me till this very day. I remember having a nervous breakdown and coming close to losing my mind! I was given one day off every two weeks or half a day a week. I woke up at 6:30, dressed the kids, gave them breakfast, taught them school, made dinner while they watched kiddie viddies, showered them and put them to bed, did dinner dishes and then attended late meeting until 9 or 10 p.m. This went on for several years. I got so burned out in childcare and dreaded every moment of it. Sometimes I thought I hated children! Was it the fault of these children that they were so unruly and misbehaved? NO! Was it their fault that they were rebelious because they had to obey an "adult" who was only 5 years older than them? NO! Was it their fault that they were bitter and angry for not having the individual love and attention they needed from their parents because their dad was never home and their mom was always suffering from nausea, morning sickness and mood swings? Not to mention the fact that they had to share the little time they had with their parents with 8 other sibblings? NO! Was it their fault that they had to be cared for by a stressed out, burned out and frustrated teenager who was just as angry and bitter about the whole situation as they were? NO! It was the fault of the adults who put us in these situations! Many of who are our parents! They figured they could simply "dump" all their offspring on some young tired out teenager (maybe even their own). I was pushed into it. I never wanted it, I never asked for it. When I complained about it, I was told I was "murmuring" and not "yielded". I was disciplined if I didn't do it cheerfully. All that to say is, I believe there are two sides to every coin. We are all guilty of some wrong doing at some point in our lives. But we are also victims. I know if I ran into some 18-25 yrs old who remembers some harsh punishment they received from me, I would redily apologise and hope they would forgive me, as I was only a child myself.(reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, August 09, 2004, 19:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I can understand all of this, I really can. Cheeks was probably over worked and all of that. It's just the lack of acknowledgment for what I went through that pissed me off. She was not the first or last to hit me, corpral punishment was everyday life. All I know is that there is no one that myself and my friends feared more in that home then cheeks. Apparently 'the red stinger' was a common thing, I did not know this. I am fuly aware that she herself was without a doubt a victim as well. But I dont think it right that my past is so easily forgotten to her and she can lie to me and everyone else about what happened in Lyon.(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Monday, August 09, 2004, 20:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I have read every one of your comments and you have asked for nothing but an apology. I see nothing wrong with your anger and hurt. All you want is closure, for that pain to go away. And I really pray it does. I have learned so much over the years. I have learned understanding, tenderness and patience. As I grew older and more mature I started developing a relationship with each child, trying to get to know them on a personal level. To listen to what they had to say, to feel what they felt, think what they thought and care about their feelings. I did not think of them simply as a "job" or "duty". We had fun, laughs and happy memories, like getting their hair all fixed up in braids, dressing up, putting make-up on, taking them on outings and "provisioning" a day at the fairground or amusement park. I remember provisioning tickets for dozens of OC's and JETTS to ride the roller costers and farris wheel. Many of them will remember all the ice cream and the trips to the bolling alley. Children became part of my life. I couldn't wait to have some of my own. I now am a mother of two. They are my life and I couldn't live without them. I do not mean to compare my story with yours.I just want you to know that you are in my prayers and I hope you are able to heal from your wounds and find the closure you deserve. (reply to this comment)

From Dolly Monday, August 09, 2004, 15:43 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree that this whole thing is getting a little crazy, I know Cheeks and I didn't like seeing Beets saying the things about sexual abuse. Now I know that a lot of people got carried away with punishment in TF as my own bottom remembers the brut it. I just wanted to stand up for my friend in the case of the sexual abuse accusation. I am very sorry that Beets is hurting and I think its very nice that she can contact the person she has been so bitter towards all these years, Most of us are not that lucky. But Cheeks did apologise to her. I don't think I should have gotten involved because it just seems to make it worse, I am a very loyal person and I got upset and wanted to say something to defend Cheeks in the sexual abuse thing as she was the only one doing so. I am very sorry that Beets has so much anger, her writing is just reeking with it and thats a very sad thing, But I know she has a lot of good support. I don't think I will visit the website anymore because this whole situation had brought nothing but anger and strife. I did'nt mean to say that I think Beets is crazy, We all have very busy lives and for me personally it kinda helps to forget about it and focus on the future and trying to make ends meet. Maybe I am going about this the wrong way. To be honest I almost don't have time to think of anything else but paying bills and college and my husband being shipped away to the army. I didn't meant to futher piss anyone off, I was just simply trying to tell beets that Cheeks is not a sexual abuser, thats all....Sincerely..Dolly(reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, August 09, 2004, 16:11 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm sorry that you have misunderstood my comments. I never ment anyone to think of cheeks as someone who sexually abused me. I never said that and she never did. It was an entirley different person all together. The thing was that cheeks apologised to me in private and admited to taking care of me and the other mc's in PRIVATE and then came on here saying that Im full of shit. Things that I have said have been in pure anger but I think that my anger is a little more then slightly justified. Im sorry if anything that I have said has hurt you, I only wanted an apology on my article and this got stupid and carried away. I hope that by me posting her apology I have put an end to this feud and we can all move on. I only wish that cheeks could have just admitted to this in the first place and I wouldnt have had to post a private e-mail and would never have been so full of anger.(reply to this comment)

From Dolly Monday, August 09, 2004, 15:13 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

From Ick!!!! Sunday, August 08, 2004, 13:41 (Agree/Disagree?) WOW!! You put it so perfectly! I wish I had read this before posting my raging comments to "showem" below. My anger has still not subsided, though! I completely agree with you 100%! I don't know either of the poeple involved in this, but I feel very strongly for both parties. Beets, you are so brave to come out about this! Even if you never get an appology, I want you know that you have probably made a lot of us who at one time had child care responsibilities really evaluate the influence they had on the children they cared for. I'm staying anonymous on this post because I am probably gonna get even more upset as people add to it.(reply to this comment)

from Monday, August 26, 2002 - 00:40 (Agree/Disagree?) (reply to this comment)

from meg Monday, August 26, 2002 - 00:39 (Agree/Disagree?) i was talking to my mom about the french raids the other day i was the only one who was sent to a separate place because i was over 18 the athorities put me in an apartment after keeping me 48 hrs in a home for juvies at the time it was my first taste of freedom and all i could think about was having to get back to the family home i often wonder what my life would have been like if i would have been happy in that appartment.it took me 3 years after that to finaly leave i'm still trying to figure out who i am and what i want but one day i'll get there (reply to this comment)

From WildChild Sunday, July 18, 2004, 08:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi Meg! It's Blue Cowboy Boots! Glad to find your note here! You know, I never thought about this aspect of the Lyon raids. I'm happy to have read this article, sad to hear that the kids never had things explained to them. Hello! Where were the adults? I guess caught up in the rush of the "media storm", struggling with their own feelings, emotions and "where-to-from-now" stances... Sad! Poor kids! I'm glad that things have changed for them now, that their parents have taken on their responsabilities more seriously... At least for some of them. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Friday, February 20, 2004, 18:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Meg that apartment was a dump why would you have wanted to stay there? We were fighting for the right to choose our own religion after the hell they put us through how can you ever wonder something like that? Even if it did take us years to get out I still think we did the right thing. I don't think it is ever wrong to fight for your freedom. Do you remember they denied us children the right to our own representation until the last day? We were told we had no rights. I think the raid did more harm to the children than leaving us alone would have done. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, February 20, 2004, 20:47 (Agree/Disagree?) From what my sisters and brothers have told me none of you spoke French so you didn't know what they were saying at all. I don't fault anyone for the decisions they made in that situation and although no one really knows what they would do unless faced with this choice themselves, I think I probably would have done the same at that time in your shoes. Like so much about the many choices we were faced with in the group, it's just not fair to ask children to take on these things. Parents should protect their children, not ask their children to protect them and their younger siblings. The Leon home was a dump as well. I assume you know what your sister has been through, so how can you say to stay in the Family was fighting for her freedom? I tried to leave the Family when I was 13 and living in the Jumbo with you. That's one of the reasons I was in so much trouble there. I have also thought of how different my life would have been if they had just let me go. It sometimes seems to me that the older you are, the harder integration into society when you leave is. While the way it was carried out was definitely wrong, and as Beets (my baby sister) said has it definitely traumatized the children involved, in the long run the raid did wonders for my own family. My father and mother stopped their violence after the raids. They began to take responsibility for their children themselves and not just sign them over to the Family when parenting became difficult. They saw for the first time that they themselves would be held accountable for what happened to their children and they made significant changes in their life because of this. My grandparents went to old school boarding schools in the UK and when I have talked to my parents about things I have experienced in the Family, they have brought up what my grandparents went through, and how "nothing is perfect". What I told my mother is that the difference is that they had a home to come back to. My personal opinion is that when you know that something is hurting you as a child, whether it is school or your church or a relative, but you have a safe haven at home from it, although abuse is abuse and certainly just as damaging, it is not as pervasive and hence not quite the same. Abuse in the Family was almost always a parental figure thanks to the ridiculous "One Wife" (all adults are the parents of all children) doctrine. When there is no escape, when the people that are supposed to love you do not, when you are faced with the abuse 24/7, I think it is different and it becomes more difficult to determine if this is really wrong or if it's not just something you deserve for being a bad person. That's the thing with the raids. I know very well how much having the door kicked down, being dragged off at gunpoint and seeing their parents kicked around traumatized my own siblings. However the danger without is never as insiduous as the danger within. No child should ever be sacrificed for any cause and I hate that my own little brothers and sisters were. The only silver lining is that they were then able to grow up without fear of having their father drag them off, or having Uncle Local-Creep examine them. It's heart rending when the Family still won't listen to us or negotiate at all. When the Leon raids happened I watched it on TV in the UK. I was extremely upset, but the Family leaders told me that this was the best possible scenario for the Family and that they were very, very happy with the way things happened. God forbid I should be too skeptical, but it seems like they want nothing more than for something similar to happen so they can play the victim all over again. Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy. (Yes I learned that term from Law and Order). It really does explain so much about our parents though. No matter what happened to their children, we were really just pawns in their games and somehow it was all about them, they were the "real victims". No one ever said a word to my siblings about what had happend to them when they were returned to their Family home and that is what especially haunted the younger ones. After all the hoopla and them being the poster children, in the end, no one cared about them at all. Family leaders seem to not even be interested in attempting to address the issues with us, but are just waiting for a photo op where they can cry about the Evil System that persecutes them. No matter what they scheme, truth is on our side and despite what these perpetrators may want, our cause is just and things will be done right this time. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Sunday, July 18, 2004, 09:47 (Agree/Disagree?) I just saw this comment today so I thought I would respond. While not being able to speak much French I certainly understood most of what they were saying and was able to communitcate in some way. The compoud they sent us to was filled with mentally and physically abused children who had severe emotional issues. Most of the children in the Lyon homes were cared for by the tn girls and thus were not subjected to a lot of physical punnishment and certainly had never been sexually abused. When subjected to these children who kicked, hit, bit, screamed at the top of their lungs all day it was severly traumatising. Not only had they been violently removed from their home they now were subjugated to repeated harassment. When us older children asked to speak to a lawyer we were told we did not have one, we later found out each family was assigned to one the day of the raid. We were told we had no right to representation and it was up to the judge to decide if we were to stay there. When questioned by the athorities my sibbling and I were not asked about sexual abuse rather we were asked about our beliefs as far as salvation. We were told new religious movements were agaist the law in France. In my opinion from everything I saw, the raids had more to do with what we believed than the possible abuse that we had suffered. So in my opinion it did more harm than good. The younger children were severly traumatized and it took months for us teens to try to help them over come their phobias. My younger sisters still have problems. While the Lyon home was running over with people at least it was clean most of the time. The raid did help us teens as we were no longer dealing with the adult focusing in on our "spiritual" problems. The spiritual quarantines and prayers for deliverance stopped. We also finnaly got the things we needed to cook decent meals everyday. I do want to say that while our lives in Lyon were difficult at best and hell at worst we never really suffered physical abuse there we were not denied food or beaten with anything. Had there been physical abuse, had our children been in danger I would have been the first one in line to tell them what was going on. It was my opinion at the time, and still is, our children were safer and better taken care of in our home, than had we left them there.(reply to this comment)

From mugthebug Wednesday, July 21, 2004, 11:38 (Agree/Disagree?) i spoke french because i was on the "provioning team" yes the appartment sucked but untill the raid the lyon home sucked worse cheeks in case you don't remember you and i and who ever we could conspire with were constantly cooking up scheems to excape and for some one who for so many years after you got out defended the family you haave no right to tell me what i was or am thinking or feeling you have no right to judge me or my life or any thing else about me for that mater i have gotten over the family and back when i was trying to get you to talk about stuff with me and you weren't ready i didn't push it don't push me and don't assume that just because you and i went through alot of the same stuff that i had or have the same feeling about it that you do(reply to this comment)

From and the award for longest run-on sentence goes to: Tuesday, August 17, 2004, 18:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Not JoeH(reply to this comment)

From Beets Tuesday, August 17, 2004, 20:00 (Agree/Disagree?) Very observant... but I guess a lot of awards don't go flying that way... :P(reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, July 19, 2004, 09:56 (Agree/Disagree?) You know what I find hillarious? no? can't guess? I'll tell you then... When someone who has caused an insane amount of emotional trauma, abuse, and has inflicted so much pain onto children as young as 4 years of age, speak so highly of themselves and talk about the wonderful lives that they gave the kids that they were in charge of. Isnt that a good one. Man I crack myself up. Its almost as good as the pope and the fucking rabi. Maybe you are wondering about the hostility. And maybe you dont remember me so let me refresh that wonderful memory of yours that has already proven its worth. My name is Sarita, everyone called me Beets and I was five years old when you first hit me which was the first day I came to that fucking hell hole. Your daddy was the shepered so that ment you and your sister could do whatever they wanted to us and we couldnt do shit about it. Although there is one sister who I will never say a bad word about. She used to take care of me and i dont mean in the way that you did. You fucked up my life. If I gardened wrong you'd hit me with your fucking red stinger. I'm sure you had a rough time and shit to but you were sick and power hungry. We couldnt talk unless you said it was okay. That home was hell and where do you get off saying that abuse that you personally inflicted never happened. I can see you havent changed. You were never nothing but a nightmare to me we lived in fear of you. THe day that you stopped 'taking care' of us was one of the happiest days of my life. Who the hell do you think you are?(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Monday, July 19, 2004, 16:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Curious, I never really took care of the mc's in that home esp. not after your family came if you remember correctly I did laundy and cooked the food you called slop this included making bread for 50 people twice a day by myself and by hand. On the rare occasion I did take care of the mc's I didn't have to discipline you, or anyone else for that matter. While I tended to be very strict and not allow a lot of rowdy behaviour it also tended to keep the adults from comming in and telling me to spank all of you. Also, you and Anthony were in a different age group you being the mc and he the oc so how would I have had both of you together? As for my Dad being in charge I would have had far less problems there had he truly been in charge. My Dad never took up for us kids, never. We were left to the mercy of the other tn.shepherds. I stand by what I said you kids for the most part were well taken care of. You certainly were better off there than in the center where you were locked out of your dormatory and left in the rain, and would have stayed for god knows how long had one of us not found you. As you said you were five I was fifteen while life there sucked and everyone of us still agrees with that, it was not the horror that you remember. (reply to this comment)

From Bad Ol' Beets Friday, August 06, 2004, 12:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Okay.... so after the highly insulting, underminding, demeaning and belittling comments that have been posted on this article by you cheeks, I have become quite disturbingly upset. I have asked for one simple little thing. To receive an apology on this article where I was originally insulted. I do not believe it to be right, that cheeks can post comments denying traumatic events that she herself has inflicted. Especially not on an article that I have written that deals with a lot of trauma that she has totally undermind. I feel insulted that she would do this for everyone to read and then send me an email with a 'heart filled' apology. Post your apology!! I don't care how selfish I'm being right now. It is the least that you can do. 11 years have past and I still have nightmare about you. It just the fact that you publicly denied it. You should publicly apologize as well. I have been patient enough. You have not replied to my e-mail and now I will begin taking action once again. I need this and I've said it before. I want to be able to 'move on' and this disgusting insult to my experiences is standing very much in my way. It took a lot out of me to write this and you totally belittle me by denying my past. (reply to this comment)

From Showemulike'em Sunday, August 08, 2004, 09:20 (Agree/Disagree?) See a lot of mud slinging here, bickering, who's right, who's wrong--we were all wrong a lot of the time! Now's time to MOVE ON?? Experts say childhood memories, wrong or right, get elaborated upon...the young child tells itself &/or others the memories, usually elaborate each time...then, whamo! the new memory is born and becomes a REAL memory whether true or false. Seems a lot of you all are hurting in many ways. Why not fight the hurts together & if someone is feeling wronged, say sorry whether its a true or false memory, and the "healing balm" is applied. Say something like, "Sorry you remember that and feel that way and I wish to soothe that hurt. I don't remember it that way but the most important thing is that you stop hurting! So, I'm sorry and would never do things the way you remember them now. And if I can do anything else that would help you, please let me know. With all my heart I wish you love, peace, joy and happiness for the rest of the years ahead." Most everyone in TF got hurt many times and in many ways while often trying to do good. Many did the wrong selfish thing many times and at others tried to do the right good helpful thing. What a mess it was! Now out, thank God, let's try to help & love each other, learning from the mistakes seen inside - and out, believe me, no system is perfect & power ALWAYS corrupts--just ol' human nature, sad to say. Try to rise above it all, dear ones, and help each other in every way. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Sunday, August 08, 2004, 15:54 (Agree/Disagree?) "Get over it"! "Move on"! How many times have we heard this from the mouths of the abusers themselves. Who the hell are you to generalize a child's memory and make the outrageous claim that it is always elaborated on? I speak from experience that, if anything, many painfull memories are repressed and don't even do justice to the harm that was actually done. All the experts I've ever heard of take a child's claim of any sort of abuse very seriously. The fact that you can blanketly derogate a child's hurt and pain shows me that you are either pitifully naive or just a plain asshole! Shame on you either way! (I am only commenting on the above comment not on the content of the whole thread.)(reply to this comment)

From Ick!!!! Sunday, August 08, 2004, 13:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Spoken like a true hippie child molester. Yuck!!!! Whether or not this alleged abuse actually happened is not for you or me to determine. What is completely sickening is your insinuation that because of the alleged victim's age, she may have exaggerated or blown up the facts! It is people with that sort of attitude that ultimately contribute to the victim's fear of reporting an incident. I can hardly even say anything, I am so pissed off!!! This goes beyond whether or not any of this happened. Your insunation should be an insult to any victim of abuse! Grrr!!!!!(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, August 10, 2004, 05:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Meant to add thumbs up, couldn’t agree more with you. (reply to this comment)

From Ick!!!! Sunday, August 08, 2004, 13:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh yes, and these "experts" you quote, please name them, and their field of research. This quote is taken from the APA's (American Psychological Association) webiste: _________ For ethical and humanitarian reasons, memory researchers do not subject people to a traumatic event in order to test their memory of it. Because the issue has not been directly studied, we can not know whether a memory of a traumatic event is encoded and stored differently from a memory of a nontraumatic event. _________ An "expert" would have to disclose that in any of their "findings". Anything you quote MUST be theory, and theory as any moderately educated person knows, is always just a theory until proven!(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, August 09, 2004, 07:44 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree with the jist of your comment but if you're referring to an expert in the scientific field you should know that the word "theory" has a very different connotation in science than in everyday life. "Theory" can be used to mean nothing more than a guess or idea but in science a hypothesis cannot become a theory unless it has been proven not to be false many times. A theory is generally accepted by most scientists untill it can be proven false by other evidence. Since all science is based on falsifiable hypotheses (with the exception of scientific laws) a "theory" holds significantly more weight when used in a scientific context.(reply to this comment)

From dolly Friday, August 06, 2004, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Where the #%$@ should I start??? How dare you!! I also grew up in the Lyon home, and I know who you are. Cheeks never ever did any of those things. You really were five years old and have a twisted imagination, you need find who it really was and seek them out instead of pointing the finger at the wrong person!! If these things horrible things happened to you justice should be severed to the right person and not Cheeks. She was never power hungry, and in fact children of "The Leaders" had a much harder time then anyone, because we had to "set the sample" and show everyone else how a "Child of the Lord" should act. It was very hard going throught the raid and since I was older then you at the time my memory unlike yours is crystal f***ing clear! I was the first kid to be phsyically examined by the docter and he certainly did'nt tap any "Funny looking thing" on my knee, it was a whole lot worse and embarresing then that. I still have not gotten over the raid and also have bad dreams but like you, I am trying to get over it and I am horrified that you have said such disgusting things about Cheeks, she has also been through things such as you claim and would never ever touch any creature in the graphic way you describe. I am sorry to hear about you going through such a horrible experience and I hope that you find out who it really was, because believe you me IT WAS NOT CHEEKS!!! If I can help you find this person I'd be more then happy to help, and I hope that you can finally move on like we are all trying to do. Its just really shitty to have to read this false statement about someone I love so much. I urge you to seek the right person out and stop this bull*$#*. Sincerly.....Pissed off!(reply to this comment)

From Beets Sunday, August 08, 2004, 20:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Sure you can help find the real person. I would appreciate that. You are absolutley it wasnt cheeks at all. Thank you so much for helping me to realize this finally. If you know a girl named Merrily who gave the name 'red stinger' to a red long shoehorn who she then proceeded to hit me, my two brothers and other young children with please give me a call so I can get in touch with her. Unless you yourself are this person then who the hell are you to say what she would and wouldnt have done. The thing is that I'm talking about the trauma I have because of her not the trauma that I have because the raid. The entire point of me writing this article was to help me get over that trauma. But now I have a whole new trauma that through the power of the internet I am now able to face. I'm sorry to hurt you by saying this stuff about 'someone' you appear to care so much about. But I am not about to let this go, and no matter how old I was I remember. And no one can tell me that this is not true, I have talked with my brothers and they have more then verified my so called 'fictious memories'. So I am on a rampage and I will get my resolution one way or the other and get the fuck out of my way or post your real god damned name if you do know me so well so maybe I can put the face with the fucker.(reply to this comment)

From Dolly Monday, August 09, 2004, 16:05 (Agree/Disagree?) There is no need for calling me bad names Beets, I should have specified what I was claiming was untrue, and that was the sexual abuse I well know the effect's of "The Stinger" as they had it in other homes as well and I was away from my family and the adult's loved to use it, so the red stinger name has been around for awhile. I see you are on a rampage, why the hell do you say I am in your way if someone claimed you were a sexual abuser I am sure your friends would stick up for you also?? Well that's the kind of friend I am. I know she punished harshly but so did everyone else, in that same home and every single home I lived in!!! I told you I am sorry that your hurting and that I hope know you'll get through this but enough is enough. I have also been through some horrible experiance's as well but I didn't scream them out on a website, I just take it one day at a time. And posting my real name is a personal choice don't take my rights out on me!! Thats what the choice is there for, or else your sister would have changed that! I don't want to argue anymore or come home from a loooonnngg day of work and see someone screaming at me. I hope that you find it in your heart to understand that I am just defending my friend! ...Dolly(reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, August 09, 2004, 17:53 (Agree/Disagree?) I understand that you are just defending your friend but against what??? I never accused her of sexually abusing me. As far as name calling goes... I have totally lost my composure. I know that we all of been through a lot of shit and that merrily has probably gone through worse in the Jumbo then what I ever experienced at her hand. If you have been paying attention at all you probably would realize that in my article I wrote it how it was. I wasn't 'screaming out'. And it wasnt until merrily not only denied that there was abuse in that home, but also that she had no part in it that I began lashing out. I dont like being told that my mental scars aren't real. It's not as if I enjoy the pain that I have gone through and have just been patiently waiting for the right random person to pick out and start throwing alligations at. As far as your real names go, I find it rather unsettling that you can know me and accuse me of making stuff up while I sit here in the complete dark not knowing anything about you other then the fact that you feel completely comfortable telling me that my memories are 'fictitious' because you care so much about cheeks. If you know me so well then throw out your name or privatly tell me. I never ment to hinder your rights, I'm not about that at all. Like when someone looks at little helpless kids and doesn't think twice about their rights. That really gets to me. I work too. seven days a week so that I can go to school. My job isn't flattering. I serve fast food and have to smile when people treat me like shit. And I have been known to frequently work 12 hour shifts. When I come home from work I don't like seeing my childhood monster denying everything she's ever done to me. And for the record I was taking it one day at a time until she said that if there had been any abuse in that home she would have been there to rescue all of us defenseless kids from the terrible injustice. I did not start this. I did not start this when I was five and I did not start it now. All I wanted was the apology posted on this site which I have now recieved thanks to the power of cut and paste. For the record once again. MERRILY NEVER SEXUALLY ABUSED ME. I said one of her sisters. That's something I dont like talking about and hope to never have to bring it up again. so let go of that it doesnt concern your wonderful friend. You have to understand that if you stick up for her while she is blaintly lying about our past that that only fuels my fire and gives me full right to call you whatever I want. I hope you can understand why I am being so direct and 'screaming out'. I hold nothing against you. You are simply blind to facts.(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Saturday, August 07, 2004, 18:27 (Agree/Disagree?) The following statement of yours is complete horse shit. "She was never power hungry, and in fact children of "The Leaders" had a much harder time then anyone, because we had to "set the sample" and show everyone else how a "Child of the Lord" should act." I've heard lots of leader kids claim to have had it tougher. Makes me laugh. "Set the standard"? You are aware that while you were asked to be an example we were over harshly disciplined to adhere to it. And I don't even agree that being an example was that hard. IMO, the leader kids and SGA's in leadership positions were almost as spoiled as the celebrities. Some of them are out now but just remembering them kissin ass and abusin the authority they had and then usin excuses like they were havin a hard time also makes me sick. I also think alot of them are in denial and will continue to deny how they sided with the FGA's. (reply to this comment)

From I remember Monday, August 09, 2004, 08:34 (Agree/Disagree?) India in the 80's...... Can give you some examples of leaders kids getting a better end of the deal even though it wasn't all of them. Were more likely to get on the singing team/ In cases where there was more than 1, they got on the ones that did hotels rather then schools, old folks homes etc.. Had their own room so that their parents could have some peace to read OHR's and write reports. Sometimes their own bed. Where as we mainly had matresses on the floor and three in a bed. Would get first look at forsake all and in a couple of instances were given the rare gifts that were sent to me. Made older children look after their children if they were in Quarintine-sometimes not, even if that child was needed by it's own family. Always seemed to have better footware and hats. I was so jealous of the sheperd's "free-days" as they had more money to spend on their kids. The park and a lassie was as good as it got for me. (reply to this comment)

From Monday, August 09, 2004, 09:13 (Agree/Disagree?) actually i dont think that is entirely true. Probably in some places that did happen, but as a "leaders kid" myself i found the opposite to be true. My dad was a whole lot more strict with us, as were our teachers because we were expected to be "samples". I always highly resented my fathers position, because not only did we not get away with ANYTHING, he was never around having always to move from one place to the other for "the work" I went yrs at a time without seeing him.(reply to this comment)

From Shackled Monday, August 09, 2004, 21:12 (Agree/Disagree?) For the sake of a conclusion lets just say in Asia leaders kids had it easier. The eldest or oldest in a family, depending on it's size and if you were with them, all had it tough regardless of your parents status. (reply to this comment)

From I remember Monday, August 09, 2004, 09:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Being the eldest as well I couldn't get away with anything either but I wasn't a leaders kid. And my dad left me when I was 2 and I never saw him again. I think the elder kids had it bad whether they were leaders kids or not.(reply to this comment)

From I remember Monday, August 09, 2004, 09:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Infact, those leaders who did put their kids first were usually nicer then the ones who stringently towed "family" policy, and I was also jealous that my parents wouldn't/couldn't/didn't "stick" up for us the same way. Oh well!(reply to this comment)

From I remember Monday, August 09, 2004, 09:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Just to clarify, I did start by saying that it wasn't true for all and I'm sure your parents / teachers were tough on you, it's the Family" way! I was just remembering some instances of inequality that did occur many times with many leaders and their kids that I have personally seen. And that only could have happened to leaders kids. (reply to this comment)

From Dolly Sunday, August 08, 2004, 08:01 (Agree/Disagree?) You are not speaking from experience, but I do agree that some of "The Leaders" kids were spoiled. Almost every home had a different situation, depending on the Leaders they were under because the leadership was also quite varied- some really were spoiled as you say, and got away with things but others were expected to set the sample and did so. There are a lot of differences in "The Family" and the homes and the leadership within the home and leadership on higher levels. I don't believe you can classify a certain experience of one home to the entire Cult, as every home was run differently than the rest. When one moved from one home to another, we would find out how strictly the home followed "The Letters" and how the leaders decided how to run the home and behaved accordingly. I don't believe what you say is false, I just think that you are speaking in generalities to greatly, What I wrote was also from my own experience so I can see what you say is true also. But don't forget that was just a part of the whole "Family " scene. In the home where my Parents were leaders our co-shepherds kids got away with everything and we didn't, it really pissed me off at all they got away with so I know where you are coming from. I hope you see both sides of this issue?...Dolly (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Sunday, August 08, 2004, 18:17 (Agree/Disagree?) When you said I'm not speaking from experience do you mean being a leaders kid? I don't see how that would matter and I can guarantee leaders kids had it better in Japan. In my previous comment I mentioned that some were expected to be an example of the set standard but that was alot easier then being expected to adhere to it. You pretty much rewrote what you wrote the first time and didn't offer anything knew as to why leader's kids lives were tougher. I agree that there are many sides to this issue but I'm yet to hear of an example of how leader's kids lives were tougher. I also wasn't going by my experiences in one home. The longest I spent in one home was 2 years so you can imagine how many homes I was in before leaving TF. Perhaps I should've mentioned that my opinion is based on homes in Japan.(reply to this comment)

From Dolly Monday, August 09, 2004, 15:04 (Agree/Disagree?) It made a big difference knowing about the homes in Japan, I mostly lived in Euopean homes. When we would watch all the Kiddie Viddie video's and such, I always thought that those homes had it made when I was younger. The house's shown were beautiful, of course, now I know better then to think that's how they all were and that life was wonderful as well. I didn't mean to repeat myself, its been a long week so I apologise? As for not knowing how being a leaders kid makes it more difficult.....A lot of times I would have to skip "Get Out Time" and instead I had to read the memory book, or memorise and recite chapters from the bible. At night the other leader's would have me stay up later then my group to tell them of how it is helping me with my personal relationship with the lord. I had to wake up early and make breakfast..Just stuff like that and when you a confussed child it seems much worse, no video night or treats when the others got to have all the fun?? Maybe that helps? It must have been hard leaving homes all the time my family always stayed at least 2 years or more. Well take care...Dolly(reply to this comment)

From Dani Saturday, August 07, 2004, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Dear Merrily/Cheeks Maybe I should refresh your memory. You took care of the MCs when we first moved to the Lyon home. Your parents had previously been running a RTC home in Holland and had continued to run that home in a boot camp style. A few months after being there Joseph and Comfort came to the Lyon home to help run it. At the time your mother was demoted for harsh heavy handed treatment towards members in the home. The sexual abuse that Beets has mentioned was inflicted on her by the sister who is directly younger than you. After being there for a few months you were taken off childcare due to your harsh treatment towards them and were put in the kitchen. After seeing the way in which you defended certain teenage boys it seems extremely hypocritical of you to blatantly lie about caring for the MCs. I sure these kids do understand that we were teenagers and for the most part did try to care them and protect them. All she wanted was an apology. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Saturday, August 07, 2004, 15:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Dani, the information you have is simply not corret. My mom was specifically asked by Zerby to move to Paris to oversee the secratarial work that was needed for the NAS's at the time. As you are aware in other parts of Europe they were dealing with the young people crisis and needed some one who would cut through the white wash the homes were sending her. I was not in charge of the Mc's when you got there, and the reason I pointed this out was the fact that your sister claims I spanked her for fun on the day she arrived. I was not removed from the Mc's for being heavy handed rather because I had a serious talk with the person in charge of childcare and told them how much I didn't want to take care of them. The other reason was the former kitchen deacon had left and Fe who was taking over was having her baby. By the way you were in Marsielles at the time so from where do you get your information? And how dare you accuse my sister of sexual abuse. Never in her life would she ever touch a child like that. By far that is the most asinine and irrational thing you could allege. Our friendship has gone way back and I believe had any of this truly been an issue I would have heard of it before. It is my firm belief that few of the stories Sarita is telling is true, and I suggest that before you make your accusations you get your story straight. For all the time you have known me you know I will tell it like it is I have no need to lie. I did apologise to Sarita personally and wrote her an e-mail and if you need me to foward it to you I will. The reason I apologised was my belief that the main problem the Family has is an inability to apologise for its wrong doings. I was hoping to give her closure. She wants me to come on here and give a public apology for things I have not done, and that I will not do. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, August 09, 2004, 18:00 (Agree/Disagree?) It was never brought up before because I never talked about it with Dani. I was trying to put it behind me and was doing a pretty decent job before you started commenting. I alleged that irrational thing, Dani is only standing beside me. And you wouldnt apologise for 'things you haven't done' publically but privatley was okay????(reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, August 09, 2004, 17:59 (Agree/Disagree?) It was never brought up before because I never talked about it with Dani. I was trying to put it behind me and was doing a pretty decent job before you started commenting. I alleged that irrational thing, Dani is only standing besided me. And you wouldnt apologise for 'things you haven't done' publically but privatley was okay????(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, August 07, 2004, 20:24 (Agree/Disagree?) First you say you only took care of the MCs occasionally now you admit you were in charge of them for awhile … I guess I’m prying into somebody else’s business, but why don’t you just give it up? Almost everybody who took care of kids in TF back then spanked or slapped them sometimes, and I don’t blame the kids for having bad memories of us. As others have said here, it’s not entirely our faults, that’s the way we were taught to handle kids, but now that we know better we should be able to admit that it was wrong of us to spank or slap those kids.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Saturday, August 07, 2004, 16:33 (Agree/Disagree?) So were you lying when you apologized or are you lying now? Dani did not know about any of this before, Sarita told me what she did in confidence and I don't believe in telling other people's stories. Sarita has never lied to me and she is one of the most thoughtful and honest children I've ever known. Your accusation that she is just making all of this up is extremely offensive on many levels. If there was any doubt for anyone at all however, your response on here really cinches it for even the most obtuse observer. If you really cared so much for and tried to protect the children that you were responsible for, you would not now spitefully lash out at and threaten one of them who is obviously in pain. I can't believe the number of times I told my siblings that there was another side to the anger they felt towards you. From their standpoint we teenagers looked like adults, but we were just kids ourselves and younger than they are now. I saw first hand a lot of what you went through in the Jumbo and how horribly treated you were and I tried to tell them that you were hurting as well and had been through hell yourself. While I did not know Beets that would write something to you on here, I did think to myself that if you knew how you had affected them you would want to make amends, which is why I am so shocked and so very dissapointed in you. Beets, I am so sorry that you have been revictimized through your speaking out. Once again I was obviously naive about someone I felt for and empathized with and I'm so sorry that she has hurt you again. Please know that I believe you and will always love you and support you and whatever you do. You are an amazing kid and I am so proud that you are my sister and my friend. "Cheeks", most of the first generation have more empathy and compassion than you have shown here. Even our mother finally said that she honestly did not remember many of the things we said but she was sorry that she hurt us and sorry for the pain we felt. Good grief, even Maria gave a semblance of a public apology. You are a hypocrite of the worst kind.(reply to this comment)

From Dani Saturday, August 07, 2004, 15:39 (Agree/Disagree?) By disregarding my sister account a blatantly lying about taking care of the MCs I don’t believe a word you say. I really don’t want this to get ugly, and don’t see the need to bring up further things about your family, so I suggest you leave it be. Why don’t you ask you sister if you don’t believe Beets. (reply to this comment)

From Dani Saturday, August 07, 2004, 15:47 (Agree/Disagree?) P. S. I thought you were all up for naming and shaming them. If you convictions of that were true you would at least take into consideration what happened in that home. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Saturday, August 07, 2004, 15:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Dani, the information you have is simply not corret. My mom was specifically asked by Zerby to move to Paris to oversee the secratarial work that was needed for the NAS's at the time. As you are aware in other parts of Europe they were dealing with the young people crisis and needed some one who would cut through the white wash the homes were sending her. I was not in charge of the Mc's when you got there, and the reason I pointed this out was the fact that your sister claims I spanked her for fun on the day she arrived. I was not removed from the Mc's for being heavy handed rather because I had a serious talk with the person in charge of childcare and told them how much I didn't want to take care of them. The other reason was the former kitchen deacon had left and Fe who was taking over was having her baby. By the way you were in Marsielles at the time so from where do you get your information? And how dare you accuse my sister of sexual abuse. Never in her life would she ever touch a child like that. By far that is the most asinine and irrational thing you could allege. Our friendship has gone way back and I believe had any of this truly been an issue I would have heard of it before. It is my firm belief that few of the stories Sarita is telling is true, and I suggest that before you make your accusations you get your story straight. For all the time you have known me you know I will tell it like it is I have no need to lie. I did apologise to Sarita personally and wrote her an e-mail and if you need me to foward it to you I will. The reason I apologised was my belief that the main problem the Family has is an inability to apologise for its wrong doings. I was hoping to give her closure. She wants me to come on here and give a public apology for things I have not done, and that I will not do. (reply to this comment)

From Shaka Friday, August 06, 2004, 20:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Try not posting anonymously if you want anyone to believe you're an actual third party to all this. How seriously do you think anyone's going to take you?(reply to this comment)

From Beets Sunday, August 08, 2004, 20:38 (Agree/Disagree?) dear lord god thank you and have an amazing life filled with joy(reply to this comment)

From ?? Friday, August 06, 2004, 17:27 (Agree/Disagree?) It is not physically possible for you to be sure who it was not if it wasn't you it was done to. Unless you are conjoined twins and are awake at exactly the same times. Just because you really wish somebody hadn't done something does not mean it did not happen.(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Friday, August 06, 2004, 14:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Let us start by examining your comments in relationship to mine. While I agree that things in that home were bad they were certainly not as bad as what you suggested. I tried very hard to take the high road and apologise to you personally for any wrong doing I may have done. That being said let me lay the rest on the table for you. I was not in charge of Mc's when your family came to the home, it was a teen boy. I did not spank you kids all the time or even once a week. I went a few steps further and contacted some of the mc's that were in the home and they have no idea what you are talking about. As far as the sexual abuse you suffered by the teen girls we want to know who and how. The only teen girl who slept in your room was your sister. You talked about how I was "power hungry" I never wanted to take care of the mc's or any other children in that home. The only thing I ever wanted to do was work in the kitchen and be left alone. I took my share of knocks and then some, my Dad who was on the teamwork never interfeared with Comforts discipline. You have nightmares, of what, my daughter in kindergarten is not allowed to talk during class either. I think you need to examine your reason of why you need a story to tell. The bottom line Sarita is I may have spanked you a few times I never abused you. If you want me to come on here and apologise for some fictitious memory you have, you will be waiting a long time.(reply to this comment)

From Beets Sunday, August 08, 2004, 22:07 (Agree/Disagree?) There is just to much to say on this one, so I'll stick to your first demand to examine our comments in relation to eachother. Mine were truthful.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, August 06, 2004, 18:49 (Agree/Disagree?) This makes me very angry. I have stayed out of commenting on this publicly because I only ever visited the Leon home once and don't know the details of what occurred first hand. Here's what I do know. Beets, my little sister, has wrestled with the hurt and anger about the way you treated her for many, many years. She has talked a lot to me about for it for a long time. My brother P (who is 4 years older than she is) has talked with me extensively about his anger towards you. My brothers and sisters (Beets, A and P) had many "teachers", both teenagers and adults, but you are the only one they have such anger towards. What are the initials of the other MCs you contacted? Most of us took care of younger children at some point. We were often frustrated, overwhelmed and completely out of our depth. We were just kids ourselves. Some of the things we did hurt the children in our care. I've spanked children. I'm ashamed of it and greatly hope that those children can forgive me, but I did it. I have to live with that guilt. If a child I took care of was angry at me for what I did to them, I would hope I would have the decency to just apologise, no matter how I remember things. How can I hold others accountable and not myself? I cannot believe that you would not only deny what happened, but have the audacity to patronize and blame her. I talked to Beets after she wrote what she did and it makes me sick to my stomach that I thought that she would actually be able to put some of her pain to rest now. What is really disturbing is that your denial sounds exactly what our mother says about things in the Family: "It's all in our head. We made it all up. What is wrong with us that we need a story to tell?" To get this from our brainwashed parents is one thing. To hear it from you is shocking. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, July 19, 2004, 17:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Man your memory seems to suck so bad. You don't even seem to be able to remember what rowdy behaviour is. Like you said I was 5 so explain to me why the fuck you thought it would be a good idea to hit me 5 times with a shoe horn (almost the size of me at the time)because i stepped out of a room that I didnt know I wasnt supposed to leave according to your totally irrational rules??? Dont tell me that my memories aren't accurate. Not you!!! You owe me an explanation, an apology! you owe it to me and to Maria and Miguel and Anthony. Anthony is only 2 years older then me when we first got there we were in the same group but I understand how hard it must have been for you to keep track of all of the kids that you hit since there were so many. Even the fact that you named your weapon should show your intentions well enough!!! If the institution was such a terrible place then why the hell was it that when and investigator came to the institution to question us I told him that I liked it there???? And who the hell are you talking to?? I mean it wasnt the horror that I remember?? Even my fucked up parents agree that that place was a shit hole. I can understand that you want to be in denial but I have suffered with what you did to me and I had almost put it behind me but the fact that you deny it ever happened?? why the hell are you doing this??? I am not one to hold grudges but this I know I could never let ago especially if you deny it. I was just a kid almost even a baby why did you do that to me? And why can't you just apologize and we can all move on. Why would I make this up? What possible reason would I have? I had nothing agaisnt you and your familly. Don't you dare belittle what I have gone threw. You are spinless(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, July 19, 2004, 16:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I’ve known you a long time and am shocked that you would dismiss the pain and suffering of a child that was in your care. I do remember you being in charge of the MCs. When we first moved to that home your parents were the shepherds and had just moved from the RTC home in Holland. Maybe after being in so many situations strict discipline may have been normal to you. I do remember the red stinger and I do remember you using it on the MCs. Granted, things were messed up at the time, but that doesn’t give you the right to dismiss what my sister has gone through. Beets has written an accurate and detailed description of what happened during the raids when she was also very very young. If she could remember that so precisely, I’m inclined to believe her account of how you and one of your sisters treated her. We all struggle with abuse and try to come to terms with it. Sometimes an simple apology goes a long way. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Sunday, July 18, 2004, 21:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Hmmm... not quite sure where I should start on this while trying to remain calm. Maybe I should start by asking whether or not you held your hands to your ears shut your eyes while loudly singing lalalalalalalala while living in that home. Once again I will say that I was very young while living in that home but I can remeber being beaten with multiple objects, many of which broke in the process and one truley dreaded one nicknamed 'the red stinger'. As for sexual abuse I experienced that too and all by those teenage girls that took so care of which you speak so highly of. I can remember being denied meals because of my tartyness to the table by only a few minutes. I was hit for wetting the bed, talking, leaving the room at the wrong moment, not eating the slop that was called food, and many other wonderful things. Your comment is an insult not only to me but to the children from that home. I am not praising the institution one bit, that was never my intent. I also remember those emotionally disturbed mentally challenged children who did act quite (reply to this comment)

From Beets Sunday, July 18, 2004, 21:33 (Agree/Disagree?) ... abusive. I always wonder what my life would be like had I been left there and I do agree that I was better off going back to the home (although it was a difficult decision). It astounds me that you can speak for the children of the home without knowing what they've experienced. In this article I atempt to not use bias however, I have never felt hate for anything more in my life then I have felt towards particular people from that home. Maybe you should have payed closer attention to your kids and what they were actually experiencing or maybe I'm just a dramtically bitter teenager. Either way the abuse I experienced in that home by those wonderful teenage (more one in paticular) is absolutley undeniable. I mostly blame the fact that girls at such a young age were given such a demanding responsibility as to take care of all those kids whose parents were too 'busy' to take care of and would see them every sunday. I don't even know what to say to this. I'm way to pissed off (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Monday, July 19, 2004, 03:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I am so sorry to hear that you have such bad memories of the girls who cared for you; That is really really shameful. I think that you are right in saying that it was wrong for the young teen girls to be given such a responsibility, and this, coupled with the fact that we as the second generation could only relate to those in our care in the way that we ourselves had been treated, made for some rather sad cases of maltreatment, influenced of course by other factors such as personal experiences and the psychological state of the persons involved. I often think back, though not as much anymore as TF becomes less of a presence in my life, to all the lovely little children I cared for in my years as a 'childcare worker', wondering if they remember me and what kind of memories they have. I would be very sad to think that they remember me as someone who did them a disservice. I like to think that I was a positive element in the lives of the children I cared for, especially considering that I was with them every minute of every day, 6 days a week, apart from 'Word Time', 'Parent Time' and 'Parent Day'. I was one of the typical 'mothering-orientated' girls and I did truly try to love each of the kids as if they were my own. But, in looking back, I am aware that there are certain elements of my family child care practice that I would not care to repeat. Although I tried my best to be fair and just in my disciplining methods, I know that my family 'training' made me much more likely to use corporal punishment than I personally feel is healthy. I have since drastically changed my stance on the issue of spanking/smacking so I know that I would do things very differently today.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, August 07, 2004, 00:56 (Agree/Disagree?) I sure hope I never run into any of the kids I took care of when I was 15. I guess I should save myself a bit of trouble and apologize in advance: if I took care of anybody here when I was 15 in the French “music home”, sorry I was such an asshole. I know sorry doesn’t cut it, but there’s not much more I can say…(reply to this comment)

From Saturday, August 07, 2004, 10:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Sounds well-intentioned. This caveat is not to you personally but to all of us: if The Family is to have taught us anything, we should know that *when* someone was hurt, vague, blanket, "if" apologies don't cut it for the person who was hurt. And apologies are about the person hurt and cannot always be comfortable to the person apologizing. I feel about The Family the way that gets people called a rabid enemy byt TF, and yet often I think if I got a signed, sworn letter of apology addressed to me, detailing what actually was done to me, I would agree to not pursue criminal/civil action.(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, August 07, 2004, 11:41 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree. I’m not aware of any specific individuals registered on this site that I mistreated (unless the times I fought with my sister count), so that’s why I’m not dishing out specific apologies. If it’s an admission of guilt you want, I admit that I was harsh to some kids in my care when I was 15. If any of them remember and want a specific apology, I’d be glad to send them one.(reply to this comment)

From Haunted Tuesday, July 20, 2004, 07:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Vicky - I think that you have hit the nail on the head here. It's a very painful thing to think that I could have caused some child to suffer under the same abuse I did as a child in the family, however, I know that both as a Jett and Teen in the F, I was on childcare (as were most of us) quite a lot, and yes, the common practice (which was really all I knew) was to spank the kids for acting, well, like kids! I know it's no excuse that I was a child myself and had absolutely no other guidelines to go by than the ones I was raised with but the facts remain that these were at least factors in my treatment of the kids in my care. I don't recall being especially cruel to them, and yet I'm sure that at times my frustration with them lead me to abusive-type behaviours like spanking kids for stupid things like not eating their disgusting slop at meals (that I even hated myself). Part of what pains me now is that as a mother I cannot fathom how any parent could see their children being raised with that type of care (basically a harried/stressed-out PG mom or a teen with twenty kids) and feel like their child was getting the best care they could possibly get. On the other hand, I've also had 'shepherds' who were no more than a few years older than me themselves and were also very cruel or who simply stood by and did nothing when I was abused, and yet, I know that like me they feel terrible now for the things they did and saw done and I think that as long as we can all admit that hey, the child-rearing practices in the cult were shitty as hell, and yes, we all watched kids too and were probably perpetuating the same behaviour we had been treated with, it'll be easier for us all to get over it. I mean, even if I had said something sometimes (and I know this from the few times I did) -- it just made things worse. I had no say in the rules and punishments, all I feel I can do now is try and raise my own child and hope I dont make the same mistakes my parents did. (reply to this comment)

From Vicky Tuesday, July 20, 2004, 08:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Thankfully I had a couple of very sensible CC overseers for most of the years that I cared for the children, to the point that when they felt that my teen co-worker and I were over-using the little wooden spoon (and that only for occasional swats, never spankings), it somehow disappeared from the room and we learned to do without it. We only learned later that they had felt that we were relying on it too much. I am glad for my own sake that I can look back and say in all honesty that for the most part I and my co-worker did a good job and were much more of a proper mother to those children than their own ever were. Which is terribly sad in itself. But sometimes I do worry that I am somehow glossing over things and I fear that perhaps the reality was not as I remember it, or that the children's perceptions are completely different. In any case it's done now and I know that in my heart of hearts I loved them all the best I could. If any of them ever told me that they remembered me in a negative way, I would have to accept their view unequivocally and ask for their forgiveness, without expecting them to automatically grant it. That is all that I could do, and somehow it doesn't seem quite enough.(reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, July 19, 2004, 09:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Although I had my bad teen teachers and such, I also recall wonderful people who I wished would never leave. I never experienced the pressures that they did and I can only imagine what it was like, but I knew when they actually cared as opposed to just wanting to control us. Corprol punishment was everyday life and no matter how wonderful people were you knew that they would hit you for stupid things because those were the rules. I cant stand the thought of my sisters guilt for stuff that went on when she was taking care of us, I know how much she cares. And if you were mothering orientated then I dont know how those kids can remember you in a bad light(reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, July 19, 2004, 02:35 (Agree/Disagree?) I completely agree with you Beets. That home was horrible. I still have memories of Jo and me breaking into tears when we hear we had to move there. Under French law it is illegal to hit a child. So what was going on in that home was not just wrong it was criminal. In hindsight I don’t think we did the right thing in that situation, we should have used it as a way of forcing our parents to leave that horrible home and the horrible cult. In all honestly Beets we didn’t have much choice in what happened our day in court consisted of a few questions being asked and then being SENT back with our parents. Naively I did think that because of what had happened things would change for us, which they never did. I am sorry if I did anything that has caused you pain and suffering. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Monday, July 19, 2004, 09:30 (Agree/Disagree?) From what I hear Dani you are the one that experienced a lot of suffering in that home. Much more then me. You don't have to apologize for anything that happened in that home. it's like you said we never really had any choice in anything that happened there and it wasnt you. It was that girl who I don't think I could ever forgive. I remember that on our first day there she took both me and anthony aside to ask us how old we were and then to hit us as many years as we were old just for fun with the red stinger. I can't recall anything even slightly, closley related to that ever happening with you. But at least the raid forced us out of that home and things did change for us some what. Maybe not for mom and dad mentally but I think things did change. You have nothing to be sorry for and I love you so much. Cheeks comment just really pissed me off because it's hard enough when you finally tell people you think are your close friends about all this shit and they dont believe you, and then to have someone who says they actually lived there and deny everything that went on there and praise themselves by saying if it would have gone on she would have been carrying the blazing torch of justice and all that nice shit. It leaves me wondering whether or not she just couldnt find a match.(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Friday, August 06, 2004, 14:56 (Agree/Disagree?) I never hit you kids just for fun. I never took care of you the first day you were in the home either. You were never denied food for being late to the table, things were never broken on you. You demand an apology? Oh no dear, I demand an apology. Here in the States it is considered slander. You want to play hard ball I can play hard ball too. Don't make stuff up, you were not the only Mc there. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Sunday, August 08, 2004, 20:59 (Agree/Disagree?) please dear wonderful Merrilly, please let me know who these other MC's are. I've always wanted to start a support group for fictitious Merrily memories. So that way we could all co mingle and possibliy come to the reallization of what a wonderful person you were to us. Oh wait.... I just remembered. You never took care of us?? Oh... so I guess that support group could never happen.... :( to bad. Here in Canada (you know the big country above you?) what you did is so freaking illegal that you would go to jail.... oh wait... I think it might be illegal in the states to :O!!! and maybe in France..... wow!! But lets not get all caught up in such silly issues because all im asking for is an apology in the same place where you have totally and publically insulted and REabused me. But unlike last time... (you remember that???? cause you willl!!!!) this time you did it in public and can not weasel your way into the kitchen to escape it. Please dont call me dear.... and I will make sure not to make stuff up at all, in fact I will only tell the truth. What should make you wonder about the sincerity of my comments is the simple fact that I spoke about you before I knew your identity. You commented on my poem on this site and it made me sick and I freaked out but I decided to let it go because I believed you, like many of us, had changed. However when you played the heroin in these comments, I was forced to say something. This is not fun for me, I derive no pleasure from this feud. I need closure. I couldnt really care less about what you demand and I dont really care at all about you want, because if you can find it in you to have any sense of decency then you will remember that you never cared about what myself or the other mc's (which you have apparently made such close friends with) wanted. I seem to be the only mc posting about this and I would love to get in contact with those girls and boys who I felt completly powerless to help at the hands of yourself. I never have liked hardball, or softball, more of hockey fan actually (being canadian and all). So lets see how well you skate on thin ice. BEETS aka... your 0356 victim (number may not be entirely accurate)(reply to this comment)

From Dani Sunday, August 08, 2004, 03:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Actually slander is considered in the States and the rest of the world for that matter as; “a false defamation (expressed in spoken words, signs, or gestures) which injures the character or reputation of the person defamed”. I think the term you were meaning to say is libel. You have already stated that you privately apologised to Beets, if anyone is guilt of libel statements it’s you. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Saturday, August 07, 2004, 19:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Teenager on Childcare: I'm having ahorrible day and now I have to watch these damn kids. I'm so frustrated so I'm just going to try and get through the day. Kid: I want to have fun today. (Not exactly thinking how to better adhere to the strict rules or make his supervisors life easier) At the Lunch table: Teenager: Ok kids, everyone settle down and finish your food. All your food, including the heart liver. Kid: Must we eat this everyday? Teenager: Do I detect murmuring? You know the children of Israel died in the desert for murmuring. Maybe you should read what Grandpa has to say about that. Kid: Frowns, all I wanted to know was if there is any good tasting food. Teenager: That's it. I need to paddle your bottom because I love you. Kid: Thinks to himself - I don't believe she loves me so why is she doing this. Why does it seem that they always enjoy it? Teenager: I had to spank you because I know whats best for you and you'll be such a better kid. Kid: Thinks to himself - You now whats good for me? I don't think so. I'll be a better kid? I don't think so. I'll just be living in fear till Jesus comes back. When was that again? 1994 or was it 2000? Either way got a long way to go. I'm screwed. Teenager: So, do you want to apologize? Kid: Still confused to why he was spanked and replies I don't understand. Teenager: I detect a rebellious spirit and think during this upcoming video night you should be given a reading assignment and additional memory work. Kid: Thinks to himself - I hate you. Teenager: I love you. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Saturday, August 07, 2004, 20:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Dude, be grateful you are so young and got out when you did. Oh and yes, quite frankly, be happy that you are male and that "childcare" at your age was not something you ever even had to consider. If you weren't there you don't know. Don't go there. Seriously. Being a 24/7 surrogate parent to a group of children (when I was 16 I had to care for 31 nine to eleven year olds) is not an appropriate role for any teenager, or something that any of us wanted or chose. Regardless, for many of us who desperately needed parents themselves, we did our best to fill that role for those kids as best we could and give love, support and understanding to the children in our care. That however is juxtaposed against the abusive and cruel policies of the "childcare" rules that were in place in every home within the Family and which gave abusers and sadists free reign. That includes the sadists among the SGs who took pleasure in tormenting those they had power over and I think most of us have met SGs that fit that profile. This issue is much more complicated than you might have understood from this thread. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Saturday, August 07, 2004, 22:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules, don’t you think it’s possible that, despite your best efforts, one or more of those 31 kids now has a grudge against you? I think it would take a superwoman (or man) to handle 31 kids at 16, in an environment where corporal punishment, humiliation and degradation is encouraged, without ever mistreating any of them.(reply to this comment)

From Haunted Friday, August 13, 2004, 12:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I was one of the 31 kids, and to be honest with you all, for years I held a grudge against Jules not because she directly mistreated me (no more than was the 'normal' practice of enforcing cult rules and regulations) but because she stood by while I was spanked in public and walked around suicidal with a sign hanging from my neck annoucing to all combo members and visitors that I was a pariah and was to be avoided like a leper at all costs. I knew that she didn't really think it was right, and I knew she had her own problems to deal with concerning the home shepherd (who it was quite obvious, had a sick 'thing' for her), but on some level, as my 'shepherd' I felt like I had the right to demand that she somehow protect/save me from those who tormented me. Strange that I had by that time given up on my own mother demanding my rights for me.... As I grew older however, and had "Jett" groups of my own, I came to realise how helpless a teen in that situation was. There was nothing we could do - if we didn't discipline the kids like we were supposed to, we got it instead, and out of self-preservation perhaps, I know many teens who did. (I've already written my thoughts on that in the thread somewhere) The thing is, I also know all of the people involved in this whole debate and it's really hard to keep quiet as I'm a bit confused. Beets - I was also 'in charge' of you when you were little, you were about 3 or 4 I think, this was when I lived with your family. It was a very rough time in my life but I remember you all quite well. From there I was sent to Victors in France and once I left, I joined the main 'teen home' where I met Cheeks. I was on childcare with her quite a number of times in France and then again in Belgium and became quite close to her - I remain friends with her to this day. I don't know if anyone here remembers, but Cheeks was not always the most popular person, I mean, I hate to be cruel, but she was a pretty quiet, chubby teen who was mostly awkward and out-of-place in the family teen home environment where looks and singing talent had TONS to do with how many things you got away with (believe me, it was the only thing that kept me out of a s--t hole a few times, not everything, but a lot). Add to all that peer-pressure, she was pretty 'normal' if you ask me - I have seen her spank kids, just like I've seen every other teen girl or boy I was ever on CC with, like your sister Dani (who I always thought was very good friends with Cheeks and who is also a friend of mine). I'm not denying that she ever spanked you, I think she did. I know I did. But what I'm saying Beets, is maybe she didn't do it 'for fun' like you felt. As a little girl, I know I myself was often confused and for sure, we were all beaten for stupid things like not eating our food. All I'm saying is, I know her well enough to know that she didn't set out to abuse or hurt you. I take abuse very seriously, I don't think it should be discounted or even belittled, don't get me wrong, I've suffered enough of it to know how much that hurts, but I think maybe you should think about taking her appology as just that - she's not the most eloquent person and she's never had a bit of education, and being confronted on a public website is I'm sure, pretty hard to deal with. I guess I'm saying, I think she's sorry for what you feel happened (the email speaks for itself I think), and I feel confused as to why she initially refused to acknowledge you at all - I guess I'll ask her about that. I had a lot of good times and went through even more bad times with all of you and Beets, I sincerely hope you can get past this abusive behaviour and realise that as teens we were often stuck between a 'rock and a hard place' as we had no clue of how to raise children and were going through the ringer ourselves. We all went through it and IMHO I think that maybe we should forgive each other a little easier and try to remember that we were ALL victims! PS: like I said, I hope you dont take this as an attempt to discount your story, I totally believe you got beaten and probably for the things you mentioned - take care and I wish you well. ---- Joni(reply to this comment)

From Jules Saturday, August 14, 2004, 11:16 (Agree/Disagree?) Joni, that was you who was on silence restriction and publicly spanked? There is a lot that I don’t remember at all, as Lauren said, some things were just routine to us. I cannot even remember all the names of those children. I do remember that time though and what happened and I am so sorry that I did not do anything to protect you. I know exactly what being singled out for humiliation and having a sign hung around your neck feels like. I truly wish I had done something about it. While some of the abusive practices were just “routine childcare procedures”, there were some things that were cruel and deliberate ways to get inside a child’s head and really mess them up. I strongly disagreed with those methods of “disciplining” children and when this happened to you, I had a huge fight with Renata (who was my “shepherd”) and the adult man administering the “punishment” about it. He told me that children in the Family had “easy lives” and so we as teachers needed to “break them”. That made me so angry. Easy lives??? Intentionally trying to “break” a child??? I was almost taken off “childcare” over that. I refused to watch the public spanking, which was in my opinion the most sadistic and cruel punishment the Family dreamed up for their kids. Being spanked was one thing and we all grew up with that, but to ritualistically strip a child and beat them in front of their friends, peers and all the other children until they broke down was unforgivably horrible. It served no purpose but to humiliate and degrade a child. Perhaps there was nothing I could have done to stop it, but I could at least have told you how much I disagreed with how you were being treated and that it was wrong. The bottom line though is that there is no excuse for my not protecting you. I was responsible. The worst thing of all was that children were to be more or less ignored when they were “going through things”. I know exactly what the despair and isolation feels like when you are singled out, humiliated and then abandoned by everyone you depended on for support and care. If anything children needed more care during those times, not less. They needed to know at least someone cared about them and would not just abandon them if they were considered “bad”. I fought with the adults over this as well and they told me that awful “Good Thots” story about snipping the butterfly’s cocoon. They told me that ignoring a child (“leaving them in the lord’s hands") was deliberate. The isolation and rejection by their friends and teachers would “break” them in a way punishment alone could not. I couldn’t disagree more strongly. What on earth did a child need to suffer through some arbitrary torture for? I got into a lot of trouble for my “sympathizing” and I am ashamed to say I went along with what I was told even though I knew it was wrong and I hated it. It was bad enough that I didn’t stop what happened to you, but to withdraw when you needed support the most is unforgivable. I am so sorry. I was thinking about how many times things like that happened and while I almost always argued with my own shepherds about it, I never once said anything to the children. I was one of those stupid people who believed in the Family and tried to obey the rules and did not want to "create doubt” or “sow division”, especially with children. This was not the case with you, but sometimes it was the child’s own parents who initiated these punishments. What can you say to a child whose own parent hates them so much that they want to see them “broken”? There were adults that were “trained” from centers in Asia (like Aaron or Malaysian Mary) who would come into a home and would initiate witch hunts to try to uncover the children’s “deep spiritual problems”. Disagreeing with these adults publicly meant serious trouble, so I stuck with just doing it privately. Berg and Sara D. started the witch hunts with the Mene Series and then Maria carried it on with the Techi Series. I spent so many years trying to reconcile the confusion I had regarding the obvious harm these “programs” did with the fact that they were directly initiated by Maria: “a victor program in every home”. How did I not see that this evil came straight from the top and the core of the Family? It really wasn’t until the British court case that I was sure about how wrong it all was. Malaysian Mary was one of the primary abusers in the UK and she was condemned strongly by the judge, the children she had put through “programs” and finally by the Family. Most of what I went through as a teenager was directly because of her. In the Philippines I was constantly in trouble for “criticizing” her and in particular her treatment of me, Cheeks and her older sister. It was the same in the London Teen Home. Then she came to my home in the UK immediately instituted a witch hunt among the children there. I hated that woman, but I was always told the same thing. She had been hand picked by Zerby and Berg to “take care of” children and teenagers. She had been “trained” directly by them and any criticism of her was to “doubt” them. When the Family finally denounced her and used her as a scapegoat (although she was doing exactly what she had been taught to do and had permission to do) I finally had the confidence to be sure that my anger over the way children in the Family (including myself) had been treated for so many years was right. When she was banned from every working with children again, I finally realized that perhaps my other “doubts” and all the things I just couldn’t reconcile about the Family were right as well. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Friday, August 13, 2004, 14:11 (Agree/Disagree?) I totally understand what you are saying. We were all spanked and we all villanized the people who were spanking us. I've said it before that I know that cheeks was a victim too. It was just that she came on to my article and publiclly annouces that there was never any abuse whatsoever in that home and if there had been she would have led the troops right in. You have to understand that this really upset me. I was not looking to lash out on cheeks. Like I said she posted under a different name on a poem that I had posted here and I didnt start freaking out then because I know what the situation was and I know how it all went. The thing is unless you told me that after 99 came 20 so that if I tried for years and years I could never count to 100, I have no idea who you are. And my memories of cheeks have been so vivid. It was the lack of acknowledgment of what I went through, the straight out lies and the attempt to make me look like a bitter teenager trying to lash out that really angered me. Also the fact that cheeks was the only one from my childhood that would make us stand in the corner for litterally forever and would hit us for no reason. I wasn't trying to create a fictitious monster. I was only trying to reach some sort of closure for my past. And cheeks sends me the email, refuses to post it and then continues to post comments that totally contradict what she emailed to me. I am sorry if I have made hers or anyone elses lives difficult because of this ridiculous feud. But none of this would have happened if cheeks had just told the truth, she had no reason to lie. We were all victims and we all went through a lot of rough shit but how is anyone supposed to 'name and shame' if they cant even admit to what they have done themselves. I hope not to argue this anymore. I lived my childhood and dont need anyone telling me what happened. Thank you for not attacking me in your comment and I am sorry if I have caused you any pain. I wish you the best. ~ Sarita (reply to this comment)

From Jules Saturday, August 07, 2004, 23:05 (Agree/Disagree?) I absolutely agree. I did not mean to say I was a wonderful "teacher" to those kids. I am sure some of them must hate or at least resent me now. I was a kid myself and was immature, irresponsible, arrogant and all the other things that go along with being 16. In addition, I was the "child care helper" for a family whose parents I hated. The father (who was a "leader" in the group) had been molesting me since I was 14 and I tried many times to leave his home and go somewhere else but he would not let me go. Having been separated from my own family when I was 12, the children were the closest thing I knew to a family throughout almost all of my teens. I loved those kids like they were my own brothers and sisters, but I hated the father and mother so much that I am sure some of that resentment must have come through. Me taking care of them was not fair to those children, who really were wonderful kids. I am sure there has to be at least some resentment from them towards me there. I have thought about contacting them and apologizing, but I don't want to create stress in their lives and at least one of them has been on this site and I know they know where to find me if they want to. I really did care about those children. Their innocence, purity and love got me through many dark days and as awful as the rest of it was, I would not trade the time I spent with the children in that family for the world. Like I told Shackled, it's all so complicated. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Saturday, August 07, 2004, 21:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I may never have taken care of 31 kids but at 13 I was responsible for as many as 20 kids who were just a couple years younger than me. I may not have been at that raid or in that country but that does not mean I didn't go through similar things. I've been the kid and the teenager(not exactly like above). If you guys don't want anyone commenting on this particular thread then why is it here or why was nothing said? I'll leave this feud to you all if that's what you'd prefer. But my intention was only to point out to Cheeks why she might think she did no harm when she was only following family childcare policy. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Saturday, August 07, 2004, 22:42 (Agree/Disagree?) I seem to have misunderstood your comment and I apologize for misreading what you were saying. I thought you were commenting from the perspective of a child on how mean the teenagers seemed to be. It is true though that some of us were mean and cruel. As I said, I took care of children and it would kill me to know that I had such a detrimental influence on their lives. If I knew I had caused someone pain and trauma I truly believe I would do everything within my power to make amends and I think that anyone who actually cared about the children in their care would do the same. Yes, we were just kids ourselves, but we were responsible for them and they were the young children we once were. Yes, the Family's childcare training was really fucked up, but I remember being a young child myself and irrelevant of the "discipline" I knew the difference between when someone cared about me and when someone was just taking out their frustration on me. It's one of the most complicated and difficult issues for me in regards to children raised in the Family, but the reality is that some of us went on to repeat the cycles. I am a strong believer in the right of minors not to be tried as adults. I think that children do not have the maturity or experience to be held accountable on the same level as adults, andespecially for us, given our circumstances (which BTW, is why I am still not using "Cheek's" real name on here). The bottom line however is that abuse is abuse is abuse. The effects are the same whether the perp is 15, 25 or 55. I saw a baby (10 months old) who had been beaten by a 14 year old female covered in black and blue bruises from head to toe. I know of a number of brothers who raped their sisters. I know teen boys who molested children and raped preteen girls. We've all met SGs in the Family who embraced the power and control over others and eagerly participated in the victimization of their own peers. These things really happened. It's all so dark and all so ugly. But it's true. It is what happened. Being one of the old(er) SGs perhaps it's easier for me to be more detached and charitable to the teen "teachers", since most of my personal abusers were FGs and I myself was one of those teenaged "teachers". I am squarely in the age bracket of the Repeated-The-Cycle people and more so because I took care of children from 16-18. These older SGs are my peers and also the ones who also bore the brunt of the abuse from the FGs. I know that what happened to me really messed me up. That doesn't excuse my behaviour though if it affected the life of a child. The facts as I see them are that so many of us are messed up because of what we went through ourselves though. Does it mean that there were mitigating circumstances for children who abused other children? It's really difficult for me to face this and I don't know what the answer is. I will say this though. I want to see abusers brought to justice, whether they are current members, former members, FGs or SGs. I have been thinking about this for a long long time and for my peers, I still don't know what that means exactly. One thing I have come to a conclusion about is that SGs who continue to hurt and to victimize children now that they are adults have defined themselves as perpetrators and they were not just a product of their socialization. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Sunday, August 08, 2004, 00:17 (Agree/Disagree?) This becomes even more complicated when you consider that a standard boundary between “child” and “adult” can only be artificial – the legal boundary even varies from country to country. So, while it is legally possible to define the difference between “child” and “adult”, one 20 year old may still be more of a child mentally and physically than another 15 year old. In my opinion the only reasonable solution is a triangle of responsibility – with Berg and the biggest leaders on top, and the youngest children on the bottom. Following this line of thought, a 10 year old would be more responsible for his / her actions than a 5 year old, a 15 year old more than a 10 year old, abusive FGA’s more than abusive SGA’s, and leaders more than pawns. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Saturday, August 07, 2004, 23:09 (Agree/Disagree?) No worries. In my story I can see how the teenager looked like an asshole but the reality is that my story is exactly how life was. We were "trained", more like placed, in childcare that way and that's all we knew. Those, FGA and SGA, that abused children are not who I was trying to portray. That story would be alot worse. I think it's obvious that I'm not to fond of leaders kids, family celebrities and SGA leaders for certain reasons. These reasons are not all the same but one that is is they got better treatment. Whether they deny that or not it's a fact. I'm not saying everyone must agree with me. But in Japan it was like this. I'd also like to add that although I dislike them SGA leaders, I'm not seeking to point them out or have them apologize. Unless they're still in and being abusive. I just assume they already feel about it and were as fucked up as they were. As far as justice concerning SGA's I agree with the solution you gave in the last paragraph. (reply to this comment)

From ex CRO kid Sunday, August 08, 2004, 01:33 (Agree/Disagree?) "Whether they deny that or not it's a fact." It was for many, but not for everyone. My parents were CROs but I and my brothers were singled out many times by certain teachers because of that and were punished more severely. I never lived with my parents and when I did see them, they made a point of not doing anything differently or special with us for that very reason. What you say is true to an extent, but not in all cases and I am obviously only speaking about preferential treatment, not any other part of your comment.(reply to this comment)

From Sunday, August 08, 2004, 08:31 (Agree/Disagree?) I think it may have to do with whether the leader's kid was a "rebel" against Family ways or not. I know one who was and I think that person was not treated any better than myself, a "rebel" against Family ways with nobody parents. While I lost a parent to The Family's orders to ditch wayward spouses, that person lost a parent to The Family's practice of having certain people forsake their children to become important leaders. That person's sibling however did not rebel that way and shot right up to top leadership.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, August 06, 2004, 19:02 (Agree/Disagree?) This is pretty dangerous ground "Cheeks". I asked my sisters to refrain from giving your full name on this site because it's not really necessary and out of respect for your privacy. Don't you dare demand an apology from someone who was a LITTLE GIRL and has carried this around for years. Don't you dare threaten her. You really do not want to do that. (reply to this comment)

From Shackled Monday, July 19, 2004, 23:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I know exactly how you feel in that last paragraph. For me it was my older sister and initially the pain was unbearable but I've come to deal with it. Because I was never close to my parents and friends constantly changing I wanted to be close to someone. I hoped my older sister would help me out but she never believed the truth of my suffering thus being unable to help me out. I have one brother out and since we both left we've become alot closer. To me he is my only family. I love my other siblings, all in TF, but it's different. It don't matter if they deny the truth. I'm surprised that Cheeks would say what she did. Perhaps she's in denial like my older sister. The trauma you experienced must of been great because of the detail you remember. I'm sorry for your pain. (reply to this comment)

From Dani Monday, July 19, 2004, 03:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I would also like to add that at the time I wasn’t aware of everything that was going on in that home. And I do apologise that I wasn’t there for you in that situation. I should have been there for you to talk to.(reply to this comment)

from Anthony Monday, June 17, 2002 - 14:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Were you parents named Joseph and Comfort? (reply to this comment)

From Beets Wednesday, June 19, 2002, 10:11 (Agree/Disagree?) My parents were Jean Paul and Vine but I knew Joseph and Comfort's family fairly well.(reply to this comment)

from Andrew Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 09:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I thought your story was especially interesting as it points out the other side to these kinds of stories, namely as seen through the eyes of one of us. I've heard so many World Services, and "Family experts", versions of how terrible all these raids were and what a detrimental affect they have on the children involved. I don't mean to belittle your experiences or say they weren't traumatic; rather I feel that you pointing out what you see as the beneficial affects--like meeting your grandparents for the first time--in some way counters the above mentioned views on the issue. In my own experience I've seen the way "persecution" has affected my life, and the life of most kids in the Family, for the better. I left first in 92, and then for good in 93, from Budapest. One of the things that helped convince me that leaving was a good idea back then was the classes we were having at the time due to persecution on how to lie to the officials. I just didn't feel like I wanted to lie about the abuse I'd witnessed and all the classes in the world weren't going to convince me that I would be doing the right thing by doing so. Great story! (reply to this comment)

from Pam Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 17:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Beets. Some of the things you said are things that I didn't even remember, and I was 6 years older than you! I must be getting old.:) If you want to talk about it I can try to help clear up some things. I can't believe no one talked to you about it. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Friday, May 17, 2002, 17:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I love you Pam :p(reply to this comment)

From Beets Wednesday, June 19, 2002, 10:12 (Agree/Disagree?) ...and by the way you are five and a half, not six, years older then me. Just thought I'd clarify that.(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, April 22, 2002, 20:49 (Agree/Disagree?) You're not getting old Pam, it's all that great Canadian smoke catching up with you. Why do you think Dad is so blissfully forgetful? :-)(reply to this comment)

from Sun Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 02:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey! I thought I was one of Jules' favorite people, too. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Wednesday, April 03, 2002, 11:07 (Agree/Disagree?) We all are!! And yes Jules has no say in this whatsoever.(reply to this comment)

from Dani Friday, March 29, 2002 - 16:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Dear beets I remember that day very well as well. I was fifteen at the time and was in charge of your group, and was in the same room as you were when the door was kicked down. I know to you it must have seemed like a bad dream and it was a bad dream. The French soldiers who did that to us were in the special forces and had been told all kinds of stories about the conditions that we had been living in. One thing that shocked me about the whole thing was people's conception of cults as we were the most looked down upon things in the world. When we were in the 'center' looking at how the children were treated and how foster childern were treated is not something that I think that any of us would of wanted. Our parent sucks and to be honest that's why, because if it came to it they could have left. It was after the response of the Family and seeing that they didn't care what we had been through, that made me leave. They left us alone as soon as that cameras had gone and the Family didn't care what happened to any of us. Our story is something that films are made about. Just make sure Beets you make your film have a happy ending. (reply to this comment)

From Beets Friday, March 29, 2002, 20:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Hey Dani, I talked to Jules and it turns out that I do remember you very very well!;) I'm pretty slow, I should have figured it out on my own but oh well! silly Dani :P (reply to this comment)

From Beets Friday, March 29, 2002, 17:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I can't tell you how good it feels to here from someone who shared the same experience. Over the years it has seemed to have forgotton that this actually happened and it has become much more of some horible fairytale. I can't thank you enough for bringing back the reality of this experience and confirming in my mind that I did not make it up. I would love to talk to you about france and try to remember you. And rest assured that my story will have a happy ending. Thanks so much for your comment.(reply to this comment)

From Holon Monday, April 01, 2002, 21:25 (Agree/Disagree?) I cant believe you remembered all that!Thank you for sharing your story.I would love to meet you someday you seem like a fasinating person.Hey, did you know that we are birthday buddies?(Well not the year I'm a bit older I was born 3/22/75.) (reply to this comment)

From Beets Tuesday, April 02, 2002, 22:24 (Agree/Disagree?) I would love to meet you too. And yes I kinda caught the whole Birthday thing from Jules' post. We're like twins ;). And not to mention that fact that we are Jules' favoritest people.(reply to this comment)

From Holon Wednesday, April 03, 2002, 20:34 (Agree/Disagree?) LOL:-)(reply to this comment)