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Getting Support : Speaking Out
Claire Borowiks Name Calling | from SAM25 - Tuesday, February 01, 2005
accessed 5067 times Claire Borowick needs help!!!!!!!!! Claire Borowick Called me an apostate and a lair ! And made me mad by saing that my account of Abes last night was lies . Shes trying to cover up the fact that he jumped! Why??? I dont know but I certainly dont belive anything else she has to say. How can she call me a lair when she wasnt there .She is full of crap! Borowick If your reading this, why do you make statments on behalf of the Family when you dont know what your talking about??? Please try to mix at least a little truth in with the lies . |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from xolox
Friday, February 04, 2005 - 16:58
 (Agree/Disagree?)
I'd like to mention the obvious if I may.
The Family's very foundation is built on conspiracy theories. To dismiss something out of hand and call it a conspiracy and therefore unbelievable, especialy in relation to the family, strikes me as intentionally obtuse.
We're not talking about the Kennedy's here.
Or perhaps there are those who believe that the years of subterfuge, and living in hiding, selah material, purgings, secret meetings etc. somehow represent an open society with nothing to hide? Who's leaders have nothing to hide?
To say: "this sounds like a conspiracy theory, and therefore you lie." Is just plain dumb, if not downright suspect.
The reaction I received from Leshner makes me wonder if the information brought to light, does not somehow implicate someone close to him. I may be wrong about that, and I probably am, but I can find no other explanation.
(reply to this comment)
|  From Jules
Monday, February 07, 2005, 17:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Given the extremely underhanded and nasty tactics of some members of the Family, it's understandable that we might be a little paranoid at the best of times, even more so right now when many of us are coming under personal attack for nothing more than speaking our own truth.
I understand what you are saying, but on the other hand we did all grow up with "grassy knolls" around every corner and that has to have done something to our pysches. The other side of the coin is that participants on this site tend to be a little suspicious, and sometimes with good reason. However these types of allegations (Leshner is a "mole") are not appropriate. I have not seen any evidence to prove this and given the current climate of hostility and lines being drawn right through families thanks to the Family's untrue accusations, it would be horrible to see the hate and paranoia spill over to here among us. He stated his opinion, you stated your experience and perhaps we could all leave it at that.
Someone recently posted: "there are WS SGA/FGAs out there posing as ex-SGAs". If they have evidence to prove this, they should do so when making these sort of public claims. Otherwise this type of allegation posted publicly here is not helpful and is merely rumour-mongering.
Thank you. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Monday, February 07, 2005, 17:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
That is my statement and you have a three page email explaining among others things what I am talking about. If you need more information, then I will gladly supply it. I didn't get more specific for the reasons I outlined in my email. If you need even more specifics than what I can provide, then speak with Sarafina.
The IP address in the instance I'm referring to was an FCF address. We all know, as well, that the cult regularly visits here and cut and pastes our comments. They even post here on occassion, especially lately. We don't all have the benefit of seeing the IP address, as you do. So, if you have more information, then feel free to share it.
During a time when some of us are being individually named in cult press releases and/or being contacted by the cult, it seems totally normal to suspect people demanding personal information, but offering none of their own. Further, I didn't read anyone calling someone a "mole". I did read and write there was cause to be suspicious.
And be assured, I consider the full implication, especially legal of everything I write. I'm losing no sleep. I do lose sleep over, however, worrying about my friends who have fallen prey to the cult's smear campaign both past and present. So, if you have information on people we don't have access to, then feel free to share it, as it would put a lot of people's worry to ease.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jules
Monday, February 07, 2005, 17:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
You didn't say anything inappropriate. I understand what you were saying and you have every right to speak about your own experiences and to call it as you see it.
Unforunately at times there is a bit of a lynch mob mentality here at times when accusations are made and sometimes people who don't know anything about the situation jump in with their "me toos" and it gets a little carried away. I'm just attempting to head it off this time.
I wish you well. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from clark
Friday, February 04, 2005 - 13:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
I hope and pray you along with dishes and mopping you are about to finish high school and have a way to further your education. Yes, you feel love and no one on this site is saying the sexual abuses are still going on, it happened about 10 years before your time. Thank God they are not now. TF knows they will be imprisoned if it did. I just hope at this very ripe age you are at, you see there is more than taking out garbage. Continue to educate yourself. don't settle for a 6th grade education. There is love out of TF too, I see it every day in my 3 kids.
(reply to this comment)
| from clark
Friday, February 04, 2005 - 13:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
I hope and pray you along with dishes and mopping you are about to finish high school and have a way to further your education. Yes, you feel love and no one on this site is saying the sexual abuses are still going on, it happened about 10 years before your time. Thank God they are not now. TF knows they will be imprisoned if it did. I just hope at this very ripe age you are at, you see there is more than taking out garbage. Continue to educate yourself. don't settle for a 6th grade education. There is love out of TF too, I see it every day in my 3 kids.
(reply to this comment)
| from Myconclusion
Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 13:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
"
From Joăo Paulo de Mello Connolly
I am only sixteen years old. I have no outstanding list of vocations and skills to boast. I mow the lawn, wash dishes and scrub toilets. I am still quite inexperienced, busy learning, wondering and growing. I guess everything seems so huge when you’re growing, so long, frustrating, and yet, ironically, so small, so short. You want to be understood and heard, accepted for what you are.
I am only growing up. There are no great answers I can give. No dissertations I would write. The Family International has given me something more priceless than any high education or career: love. I’m proud to see my older friends and peers standing for what they believe. They have learned to fight and sacrifice, and I can only admire them for what they’ve already given. “We cannot all be great,” it was once said, “but we can attach ourselves to a great cause.”
So sad to have given up on life before it's even begun.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | From
Friday, February 04, 2005, 13:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, Joe! Is this testimony actually *on* myconclusion???
Speaking of conclusion, interesting how the site is called conclusion and the conclusions all happen to be the same and were reached before posting, hence before inquiry. Rather static and closed, eh? Typical of The Family to have to have a conclusion and to flee inquiry. Like the leaders, who insist it's the best environment without ASKING first and ever wondering if that's the case, even after their "well-adjusted" ex-prince crashes and burns.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Leocon
Friday, February 04, 2005, 16:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow....you are all so bright. I am soooo proud of you all.
delusion??? Are you kiddin' me?
the farmer sees the giraffe the first time and says: "There ain't no such thing".
That is delusion!
Happiness is a state of mind and I, as well as a multitude of other people, are happy in The Family! Are you happy? If not maybe change your lifestyle..........again.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Jaded
Friday, February 04, 2005, 17:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Interesting analogy... but it seems that you are the one who refuses to accept that there is another viewpoint on the subject, ie. one from someone who has been where you are standing and now can look back at where you are from a different point of view. No one is arguing that you aren't "happy" if you had asked most of us 10 years ago, or so, at your age; if we we're happy we would have bobbed our little heads in synchronized unison as well. I remember being out "personal witnessing" and asking a college kid if he was happy and he responded that, yes he was; and proceeded to tell me about his life and how pretty much perfect it was, I remember walking away thinking how deluded he was for really thinking that he was happy, I mean he wasn't in the Family! how could he possibly be happy? We who are out; are for the most part very happy now, and if we aren't we are in a position to do whatever it is we want to change that. what about you? what are your various options? And what diverse experiences do you have that qualify you to comment on our state of happiness? You have had one thing your whole life and as such can't possibly see the world from any other angle. and that myconclusion site is a great example of that. Every one parroting the party line and apparently thinking it's their own original thoughts. Now thats delusion; bravo mama and peter, you've got another fine bunch of drones.
Interestingly enough; heres one that looks like it may have slipped thru the quality control, well, sorta...
http://www.myconclusion.com/archives/2005/01/27/i-left-the-family/(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from xolox
Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 13:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.myconclusion.com/archives/2005/01/30/brought-my-swim-trunks/#more-326
This is David R's brother.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Repost from Myconclusion
Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 13:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I guess I can start by asking, what about all the others, literally hundreds, who can honestly say that nothing of the sort really ever happened to them? What about the ones who never really experienced harsh discipline? (Or any discipline for that matter). What about the ones who were never on silence restriction or never were in any sort of victor program?"
Yes what about them? They are not the issue here. Since you have nothing of value to add, take a hike.
"I can honestly say that my life has been free of that and I venture to say that many others I know of have too.
I mean if I really started digging I might turn something up that I could blow out of proportion, become resentful about, allow it to fester in my mind, and consequently go insane over it. (seems like something is bothering him that he hasn't dealt with) (emphasis added by me)I could, for instance, blame my father’s death on a handful of the local leadership of that time. Had he been scheduled a hospital visit a day earlier he would have lived. So what!? Bad things happen in life that we can’t impede. (Huh? Why right above you said it could have been prevented! And yes, he died of acute perithonitis right on the kitchen floor on the Heritage school! Claire Borowik, your present day spokesperson was a shepherd at the time. The one resposible for your fathers death is representing you to the world.) If we trust God, we can even turn it to good. It’s up to each of our individual maturity to “Move on” and let it make us, not break us." You just called your fathers death a good thing.
Ok buddy, my turn. I know this guy personaly. I lived with him for years! David R. is what he used to go by. When he was fifteen years old he still urinated his bed every night, plus he could hardly speak because of a terrible stutter. I would call that serious psycological damage. And to refer to the preventable death of his father Matias that way shows something is still seriously wrong.
I agree with him on one thing though, Boca Junior Rocks! Did you watch the last game? they beat River 2-0.
"I haven’t taken the time to extensively read your postings, simply because there are sites that fall into categories I won’t stoop to. I don’t consider any of it worth my time!" Duly noted, I will consider your oppinion uninformed.
"You’re living in a dream world if you think you’ll actually make a difference." I think you're projecting your concerns onto us.
(reply to this comment)
| From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 16:54
 (Agree/Disagree?)
"Huh? Why right above you said it could have been prevented! And yes, he died of acute perithonitis right on the kitchen floor on the Heritage school! Claire Borowik, your present day spokesperson was a shepherd at the time. The one resposible for your fathers death is representing you to the world."
"Ok buddy, my turn. I know this guy personaly. I lived with him for years! David R. is what he used to go by. When he was fifteen years old he still urinated his bed every night, plus he could hardly speak because of a terrible stutter. I would call that serious psycological damage. And to refer to the preventable death of his father Matias that way shows something is still seriously wrong. "
I have a factcheck for you on some of that information. I checked with an ex-member who lived when him when he died and they said the following:
"Matias was living in the Ark when he died not the Heritage. Some of his kids including Benji (whose article is referenced) and his brother David R. were living at the Heritage at the time and so was Claire Borowick...but she was in no way related to Matias' death or even living in the same Home. He died in the hospital or on the way to the hospital...not the kitchen floor. The statement that he might have survived had he gone a day earlier is speculative. His death was not the result of a long "faith for healing" versus "go to hospital" struggle. He struggled with liver problems but was generally healthy until he fell sick one Sunday. He rested in his room on Monday and Tuesday and was taken to the hospital on Wednesday when it was realized what bad shape the poor guy was in. His death was more likely the result of an aggresive disease and possibly neglect in the sense that he was kind of lost in the shuffle and nobody new how sick he was...but I don't think he was denied medical attention."
I would add that stuttering and peeing the bed are troublesome conditions for a 15 yr-old kid but not proof of "psycological damage". I am not trying to be contradictory but when the facts are wrong it makes your argument appear weak.(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 17:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
David Rocky VaNynaten was a best friend of mine for many years. During the very time period this happened. I don't know what random ex-member you've gotten your information from. If he/she is cool with it you might identify them for me? I would like to talk to him/her about this.
Having lived in close proximity to David, and shared several years of my life with him, including having slept in the same common bedroom the whole time, I can say with certainty that he did not suffer from an overactive bladder. The problem only occured at night. And as for crippling stutters, the're generally considered psycological problems. When you combine these two issues I think the result is clear. But I'm no Doctor, so I could be wrong.
It is true that Matias had liver problems due to a poor diet and excessive drink early in his life, but the extent of his treatment was to refrain from greasy food, and an occasional cleansing tea when his side hurt. And prayer. This does not constitute adecuate medical attention. I think you are aware of The Family's policies regarding faith and trust in the Lord regarding healing? As well I think of The Family's overall quality of nourishment? So let's not be so obtuse.
Claire and her husband of the time Cacho, were the shepherds of all the region, not just one home. As the expression goes, the buck stops at the top.
I might also point out that the comment I made was in reference to David's own words. It wasn't my statement.
How's that for a source?
It is also true that Matias lived at the Ark, but he was cooking at the Heritage on the night in question. (Sunday fellowships tended to occur at the Heritage) This inter home travel was so common as to be the norm.
Your right about one thing, he did die in the hospital. After his gut burst and he landed on the kitchen floor, at which point he was dead for all intents and purpose. And wouldn't you consider "getting lost in the shuffle" when someone is critticaly ill to be neglect? I'm sorry this so drastically weakened my argument! Get real.
A little factcheck for yourself: The article referenced was David R's, not Benji's.
Considering the fact that you weren't there, and probably didn't even know the people in question, as well as the fact that you obviously missed the content of David's statements. As well as the content of my post, I would say your intent was decidely argumentative.
Anything else?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From katrim4
Friday, February 04, 2005, 22:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
It is my understanding that the person in question was not a child but an adult. I agree with you though, who cares what the exact leadership structure was, failure to report a crime is a crime. If you knew that someone was seriously ill and needed medical attention and you were in any sort of leadership capacity at the time (LAS, NAS, GAS, Home Shepherd, elected/non elected, whatever) and could have persuaded them to seek professional help, then a small part of that blame, or at least guilt, should lay on your shoulders. So Claire wasn't one of the top leaders the day he collapsed, she had been one of the top leaders off and on (right?) prior to that and was most likely aware of the situation in question.
I think what we need to ask ourselves here is, are the collective leaders resposible and guilty through association, or do your hands have to have blood on them in order to be declared guilty. I'm not out for a witch hunt here, some people really didn't know what was going on, but this is one of the main things I hold against my own parents. When the Davidito Book came out did they leave, no. When my brother was sick and dehydrated and the shepherds had them read But If Not did they leave? No. When they prayed for that woman that had cancer (sorry,can't remember her name) to die so that she would be put out of her misery, did they leave? Again, No! These aren't necessarily offences that warrant judicial investigation, but their conciousess should hold part of a collective responsibility for standing by and watching these things happen. (reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 22:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
You are correct. He was an adult. My information is that Claire was the shepherd of another Home and was not aware that he was sick. People in his home basically thought he was under the weather on Monday and resting in his room. He was feeling worse on Tuesday. On Wednesday he was too weak to walk and was having difficulty with his vision. He was taken to the Hospital Wednesday afternoon and passed away shortly after arriving at the Hospital. If Claire was a leader of the Home, of the Area, or aware of the situation in any way, I would agree that there would be a degree of accountability and responsibility.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From katrim4
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 00:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
So what you are saying is that Claire was not a leader of the home or area and was not aware of the situation, therefore she is cleared of responsibility? How long was the illness going on? How long was this guy on the prayer list? She was never his shepherd during the time that he had (whatever the illness was)?
From reading the above accounts, it sounds to me like this was a long term illness and this was a case that was chronically overlooked. I wasn't there, I can't claim to know any of the firsthand details, but from reading all of these back and forth posts, that's the information that I gathered.
What is it that Mathias died of? Would regular medical attention have helped him? If the collective leadership had ensured that he was properly taken care of medically, would he have had any better of a prognosis? Was Claire a leader during any of the time that his illness was publicly known?
Quote:"I could, for instance, blame my father’s death on a handful of the local leadership of that time. Had he been scheduled a hospital visit a day earlier he would have lived. " That is the phrase that makes my heart break. If it wasn't Claire, and you know the local leadership at that time, who were they? I hear Mathias was a nice guy. Too bad he didn't make it for more people to be able to say so.(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 08:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
For the record, I think everyone in TF going back to beginning to the 60's should have annual check-ups and dental visits. I think the whole idea of idea of praying for someone instead of taking them to the doctor is ridiculous and very dangerous. In the same way that obesity and heart disease and cancer are health issues associated with the highly processed food in the USA, liver problems is the primary health issue associated with Argentina due to the standard Argentine diet. My point: Older Argentines often have to watch their diets due to the liver problems and Matias was no exception.
I hear that not only was Matias a nice guy...he was a GREAT guy. He had a tremendous sense of humor and was loved by all the young people in the area and GREATLY, GREATLY missed. It was very, very traumatic when he died because not only did EVERYBODY love him but it was so SUDDEN that nobody knew he was ill. That's probably why they remember the details so clearly. There were no prayer lists for him...no desperate prayer sessions for healing...no exorcisms...no discussions about taking him to the doctor. The teens thought he was a little under the weather or on R&R. The speed of this is comparible to someone with acute appendicitis not receive an appendectomy in time. It was tragic and might have been avoided if as soon as he started feeling bad he was taken to a doctor and we all wish he had seen a doctor immediately. People in his own Home didn't know how serious his condition was...much less people in other Homes like Claire Borowick. I know it sounds like I am defending Claire because I like her. That's not the case.
In hindsight, we might have avoided this long contentious series of threads if I had written Xolox privately rather than publicly challenging him when he originally stated:
"He died of acute perithonitis right on the kitchen floor on the Heritage school! Claire Borowik, your present day spokesperson was a shepherd at the time. The one resposible for your fathers death is representing you to the world." and "I was there!".
If I would have written him privately and told him what I had heard and given him the opportunity to publicly correct or greatly qualify his remarks he might not have made additional statements and ridiculous arguments that further demonstrated his lack of knowledge of the facts and likely lack of first hand information. I called his bluff. The result: Xolox doesn't like me very much, think I am a megalomaniac and will probably not be inviting me over to his place for Mate anytime soon. In the interest of saving bandwidth and all of our time I will avoid starting public arguments with Xolox.(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 11:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Older Argentines?" I am not sure Mathias qualified. Yes, he seemed quite a nice guy. Also a "shiner" for a long time. For some of us who they figured they could avoid explaining to, though, the whole incident was shrouded in mystery, as so often with inconvenient events in The Family. I think somebody felt they had some responsibility.(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 19:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.myconclusion.com/archives/2005/01/30/brought-my-swim-trunks/#more-326
I think my misunderstanding of the individual you were referencing (David) in the article is that the above link higher up in the thread points to Benji. You grabbed a paragraph from David's statement without the link...thus the misunderstanding. Add to fact that Benji had a much more pronounced stuttering problem than David ever had and we have a mistaken identity.
My source was in the room next to Matias on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in House #5. On Wednesday, Matias went to the hospital and my source walked him to the truck that drove him to the hospital.
I agree that it was unfortunate that Matias didn't receive immediate medical attention. It might have made a difference. I raised the point because the dying on the kitchen floor was inaccurate and the association with Claire Borowick was unfounded.
I understand that you were there but you were about 12 years old at the time (1991) based on your profile and living in a home other than than the Ark which explains some of the inaccuracies.
Cacho (Jose) and Claire and not been area shepherds since 1988 when a country-wide election resulted in them losing. They separated and Jose went to Peru for training. In 1991 Jose and GLORIA had been appointed NAS shepherds which was the equivalent of a VS but they had nothing to do with the Ark. The point is that Claire had absolutely no responsibility in that situation.
I am not defending Claire Borowick but if you are going to make a credible criticism of her you need to have the facts. I would hate to see someone bring up this argument while in an interview with Claire based on faulty information and have Claire truthfully deny it. There are other criticisms of her which are perfectly legitimate.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 21:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
http://www.myconclusion.com/archives/2005/02/01/david-van-nynatten-speaks-out/#more-349
Let me get this straight, you believe that Benji had a worse stuttering problem than David ever had, yet you've never met them. Have you ever lived with them? I contend that David's stutter was worse, the guy could hardly begin a sentence without watering the lawn, but that's beside the point.
Once again your source is a mystery. But there's much about your information that that leads me to believe you do have an authentic source. And It's certainly obvious that we differ in a lot of the details of this account. However I ask you, since when is TF a democracy? Since when does the Family vote on matters at that level? Claire Borowik may not have been the titular figurehead at that moment, but her removal had nothing to do with her relinquishing leadership. Do you think she had nothing to do with the way the cult was set up in Argentina? Oh she stepped out, but she didn't step down. She and her husband just went Selah, Many Argentine bigwigs did after the raids of '85. The authorities had a list of names of the main leaders, this group of people went underground in lieu of further government action. And who wouldn't? They came in with tanks and helicopters!
As far as Cacho (Jose) and Claire splitting, it has nothing to do with their "professional" lives. They worked very well together in '92 before the second set of major raids. At least it's what my bare eyes told me.
You seem like an analitical person, tell me, when is what The Family has told you ever what it seems? If we're to follow the logic you have laid out in this matter, we'd have to believe burg was innocent of all but firsthand abuse. And further, for you to blame him of even that would be an unfounded accusation, unless I'm wrong and you grew up in that particular home, and were abused by him personally.
"The point is that Claire had absolutely no responsibility in that situation."
Do you even you hear yourself? maybe she had nothing to do with it that you could pin on her, but to make a reckless statement like that is just astounding. She was one of a small handfull of people who could be said to have had the most to do with it, however indirectly. Who do you think set up the machine? I'm not claiming any maliciousness on her part here, just simple bungling incompetence, and the resposibility of setting up a system where people hold hands and spout gibberish at the sky for two days, instead of taking a dying man to the hospital.
Seeing as you weren't there, I beleive this makes you the last person in the world to be judging the veracity of these facts. (reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 00:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I won't argue the degree of stuttering issue with you. We agree that they both stuttered and thus the misunderstanding about who you were referring to.
"Since when is TF a democracy? Since when does the Family vote on matters at that level?"
TF has always been a dictatorship at the highest levels. However, elections for LAS, DAS and GAS were held going back to the early 1980's in South America. An election did take place in Argentina in 1988. All Homes Shepherds were eligible. There was a series of run-offs. It came down to Cacho/Claire, Miguel/Maria and Titus/Charity. Titus/Charity won and were area shepherds form 1988 through about 1990 when the CRO's disolved the position and eventually appointed Jose and Gloria as NAS level shepherds.
Comparing the logic that I have presented with not blaming Berg is ridiculous. Berg was the indisputed leader/prophet of the group and he bears full responsibility for his writings, directives and instructions to members. Blaming a demoted leader for things that happened in another home, in another city, more than 3 years after they were demoted is a real stretch. Put that together with your theory that the 1988 DAS election was faked for security reasons and Claire was actually running things behind the scenes conspiracy and it gets harder to swallow. It sounds like you're dreaming this shit up as you go along. Statements like "Oh she stepped out, but she didn't step down. She and her husband just went Selah..." have no basis in fact.
"I'm not claiming any maliciousness on her part here, just simple bungling incompetence, and the resposibility of setting up a system where people hold hands and spout gibberish at the sky for two days, instead of taking a dying man to the hospital."
What you actually said (and what I took issue with) was: "Claire Borowik, your present day spokesperson was a shepherd at the time. The one resposible for your fathers death is representing you to the world."
Are you actually suggesting that had it not been for Claire being an area shepherd until 1988, the Family would have taken Matias to a hospital right away and not resorted to praying for him? You think that CLAIRE BOROWICK was responsible for "setting up a system where people hold hands and spout gibberish at the sky"?!?
"Maybe she had nothing to do with it that you could pin on her, but to make a reckless statement like that (saying she wasn't responsible) is just astounding."
I don't think I am the one making uninformed and reckless accusations. I'm not eager to defend Borowick but if we don't deal in facts and truth, TF leadership will direct their members' attention to these glaring errors and dismiss us all as a bunch of charlatans.
I think responsibility for his death is with Berg for the pressure that so many felt to not go to the doctor and then blame the Home Shepherds at the time for not realizing how deathly ill he was and taking him in immediately. Claire had as much to do with it as Singin' Sam who helped pioneer South America in the 70's and "set up the system".
Dismissing your "Al-Gore-is-really-running-the-country-but-for-security-reasons-we-THINK-Bush-is"-type argument, your statement was factually inaccurate. That's all I wanted to point out and I won't be devoting any more time to this thread that we kindly hi-jacked from SAM25.
If you are skeptical about any of my information that I have presented then I suggest that you simply ask your parents. I verified this with more than just one source and they were all over 16 at the time and living in the Ark with Matias and in Argentina during the 1988 DAS elections and very aware of the leadership promotions and demotions.
On a personal level I don't care if you have a Maradona tattoo on your ass, your car is painted light-blue and white, your firstborn is named "Malvinas", you convert your mate gourd and bombilla into a smoking pipe and your piss is green like mate. If you want to be taken seriously, spend a little more time getting your facts straight.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 22:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
I realize that defending Claire Borowick is not a popular action to take on this site and have tried to clarify that my efforts to do so were motivated by a desire to maintain the highest level of credibility for ex-members who have been abused.
I have made no demands for personal information from anybody. If Xolox was saying that he was abused and wanted justice and needed witnesses, I would be privately offering him any information about others that might have been there to corroborate his story.
What Xolox did was make a rather serious accusation that Claire Borowick was directly responsible for someone's death. First hand accounts of this situation from multiple sources who lived at the various Homes in the area directly contradicted his story so I challenged his facts. Nancy, these people are not Claire Borowick fans or apologists.
In response to my challenges Xolox, was belligerent and evasive and demonstrated a lack of knowledge about the very basic details of the situation to such a degree that one would question if he were really there as he claimed. Nancy, I don't have to tell you what it usually means when witnesses on the stand react this way when their story is challenged. You would not put Xolox on the stand.
"Does it diminish the veracity of my experiences that I can't tell you the names of every school and home and what every drone cult member was doing when I experienced abuse or witnessed it?"
Of course not. However, the collective veracity of our experiences IS diminished when accusations are leveled that have no basis in fact or logic. It makes it too easy for the TF leadership to dismiss all acusers as charlatans and "false accusers of the last days".
I have explained to Xolox in no uncertain terms that if he can demonstrate that he was indeed present at the Home(s) in question by publicly or privately volunteering details that any 12 year old JETT in the Home would know (and would protect his anonymity) I would apologize for my skepticism. In addition I would try to gather more information about this event to try to corroborate his account and very serious accusation.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Friday, February 04, 2005, 11:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
My dear Leshner, once again you allude to facts and figures of which you know nothing about, have no experience with, and in your obvious frustration at looking like an idiot have taken what started as an intelligent conversation into the realm of personal insult! If this is the best you've got I pity you.
Claire Borowik was one of many responsible, yes. One of many.
I find it strange that you would assume that because I was young, somehow my memory was faulty, or my intelligence for that matter. Maybe everyone here was too young to remeber anything at all! What the hell are we all doing here? You assume too much, but I've come to expect that.
I also find it ridiculous that you so vehemently oppose Hearsay with Hearsay. It makes your possition so patently ridiculous. And I might add that your source/s continue to be a mystery.
"Dismissing your "Al-Gore-is-really-running-the-country-but-for-security-reasons-we-THINK-Bush-is"-type argument, your statement was factually inaccurate. That's all I wanted to point out and I won't be devoting any more time to this thread that we kindly hi-jacked from SAM25." -Here you've lost me, and the rest of the planet. What do Bush and Al Gore have to do with anything? The analogy doesn't even apply. Here you are with no first hand knowledge, flinging accusations of falsehood. I gotta say I didn't expect you would choose to walk away after flinging any number of insults, and thereby avoid the repecussions of it. I should learn to expect dissapointment when dealing with you.
"I verified this with more than just one source and they were all over 16 at the time and living in the Ark with Matias and in Argentina during the 1988 DAS elections and very aware of the leadership promotions and demotions" Once again you assume that age equals intelligence. And based on your pettiness, I'd place you at the age of ten.
"On a personal level I don't care if you have a Maradona tattoo on your ass, your car is painted light-blue and white, your firstborn is named "Malvinas", you convert your mate gourd and bombilla into a smoking pipe and your piss is green like mate." On a personal level huh? You stooped to personal insult long before this when you called me a liar based on hearsay. Hearsay, a point I find conspicuosly absent in your replys.
If you want to be taken seriously, spend a little more time getting your facts straight." - You go talk to your mystery source, and I'll reminice.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 15:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Okay...I tried but I couldn't walk away.
"Claire Borowik was one of many responsible, yes. One of many."
Ahhh...the story changes before our eyes. Of course after painting yourself into a corner you are relegated to hold her as responsible as Simon Peter, Singin' Sam, Faithy and Hosea.
"What do Bush and Al Gore have to do with anything? The analogy doesn't even apply."
They apply directly to your conspiracy theory that Claire pretended to lose the election in 1988 for security reasons and was still in charge of the country. You can check with your parents or any former member from Argentina and they will quickly debunk that theory.
"I should learn to expect disappointment when dealing with you."
This is true. If you think having some Yerba Mate on your kitchen shelf qualifies you to make baseless and false accusations without having your facts questioned...you will be disappointed.
I'm not calling you a liar. But I think it's disingenuous of you to try to save face instead of just admiting that you were not in the Homes involved, have no first hand information and may have received some bad information. (reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Friday, February 04, 2005, 16:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Your continuous blithering on about things you don't know is tedious.
You keep asking me to diclose the names of my parents, something extremely personal, while you refuse to disclose the source of your erroneous information.
I can see you learned well the tactic of deviating from the subject at hand, TF is good at it too.
Go on Leshner, throw around well known family names. It's a simple thing to look up the provinces of Argentina, or it's neighbouring countries. You think this lends you any legitimacy?
"If you think having some Yerba Mate on your kitchen shelf qualifies you to make baseless and false accusations without having your facts questioned" - Here's a perfect example of how you construct an argument. Take a good look in the mirror, you'll see someone who is too proud to realize how pathetic he really looks.
"I'm not calling you a liar" Talk about a changing story! One has only to scroll up to see that you absolutely did. Blind little Leshner.
As to your assumtion about what homes I have or have not been to, well, that's just taking ridiculous to a whole new level.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 19:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
I find your infatuation with sources interesting when you are unwilling to identify yourself. I always wondered what it was like for Woodward and Bernstien when they implicated the Nixon administration in the watergate break-in scandle and subsequent lies. The administration was very, very eager to demand the source (he's referred as deepthroat and it's still not known who he is) and very reluctant to answer any pointed questions. History teaches us who had the right information.(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Friday, February 04, 2005, 20:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
I will tell you I lived at The Heritage at the time.
Though I find your criticism of my annonymity hypocritical, considering you defend your own and your source's so adamantly.
Woodward and Bernstein (check your facts on the name's spelling fact nazi. No offence to the grammar nazi.) were reporters, making their defence of their sources a legal/ethical issue. Once again your tangent is way off! (and Family like?) But we've come to expect that so no big surprise there. Put a little more thought into your analogies will you? That's the second time you put out a completely useless one.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From hmm
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 22:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
"What if my Dad had been hit by a drunk driver? Would it be a wise decision to make it my life’s goal to pursue and by any means necessary, bring the perpetrator to justice, all the while voicing hate, bitterness and unhappiness? What would that say of my character? What if he would have died because of hospital negligence or even murder?"
So what exactly is he saying? that we should praise the lord and go on our merry way if your father gets killed? I think that if your parent, or anyone close to you, was killed, be it man-slaughter or homicide that one would most definetly pursue any legal recourse available. To do otherwise would be
a.) Saying your loved ones death meant nothing to you
b.) Allowing the person who killed your loved-one to remain a threat to society.
And as for "voicing hate, bitterness and unhappiness", those are pretty much the normal reactions one would have. If you didn't, it would say of your character that you didn't care, and that the natural human response to such a tragedy has been replaced by something else. (ie. brainwashed)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From neez
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 22:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
lol.. Be sure to remind Borrowick to use that gem in her next speech.
So there's only 3 judges in Argentina? And 2 of those judges said the words "The family loved bringing people to doctors"? You must be kidding. Care to display any evidence of this?
And your Berg quote is laughable at best. Berg clearly wanted(free) doctors to maintain his baby factories.
"I guess some of us were there and know otherwise." With this statement alone you out yourself as a clueless blow-in.(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 20:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
And two out of three dentists recomend Colgate.
And four out of five customers prefer Quiznos.
And five out of six callers recomend Verizon.
And four out of five people prefer AOL.
And at least one person in this coversation posts anonymously, with some vague statistic involving unknown number of nameless Argentine judges which he/she pulled out of thin air, asking if David is out, (which he's not as Myconclusion.com can attest), and calling people liars based on supposed info in a GN he/she refuses to number.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From PTL!
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 22:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
The Lord led those 2 sheepy Judges, Mansur and Prack, to write the following inspired defense of our Family's medical practices! I think we should make them honorary members of the International PR Board!
"also the accusation of multiple deaths caused by a lack of medical
care is absurd when placed next to the specific recommendation made to the "Home Shepherding Teamwork" in a document retained with the file of material provided by the Intelligence Department of the Buenos Aires Police: "Pray and look for private clinics and good doctors who can attend us, especially our pregnant mothers and children" (pg. 3285)."
Any prophecies on how to reward these faithful jurists? Any sweet sisters have a burden to lay down their lives for them? Hallabarrasheedibirrianda! Alabaranda, telavalabaranda!
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 21:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
See my detailed response on another thread of this Article (above).
I take no pleasure in contradicting you publicly but the presence of uncontested false information on this site dramatically reduces the credibility of so much of the rest of the information available on this site that is factually accurate. It's far to easy for TF leadership to dismiss valid information on this site as "JETT hearsay" when they find inaccuracies in a few instances. Thus the need to stick to the facts.
Have a good weekend.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From frmrjoyish
Friday, February 04, 2005, 13:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
While you're chomping at the bit to be so right, don't forget that you're arguing about the death of someone's son, father, or husband. Have a little more respect! By your own words he was sick, neglected, and lost in the shuffle. We all know that noone could even shit in TF without permission from the higher ups and spending money on systemite doctors, when you could just as easily be cured with prayer, oil, and some homemade ginger garlic and pinocha elixer, was not exactly encouraged. That is medical neglect plain and simple. Stop making yourself look like more of an idiot by arguing the minutia with someone who was actually there!(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 15:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
Frmrjoyish, in fact the purpose of my initial reply to Xolox' erroneous statement about Claire causing Matias' death was related to respect. It's about self-respect. Claire Borowick is disrespecting the loss of life referenced by Sam25 in the primary article of this post by trying to frame the tragic death in terms that serve the interest of the group.
Likewise, Xolox, made statements blaming Claire Borowick for Matias' death. I think we all agree it's wrong and disrespectful to misrepresent facts about something as tragic as a death to further our objectives. These statements could prove damaging to Borowick and bolster our arguments that she's a liar. The only problem is that Xolox was wrong. His facts were wrong and his rants and attempts to implicate Claire through some obscure reasoning that would hold Big Josh, Simon Peter and Singin' Sam equally accountable are extremely weak.
Xolox made outlandish claims and retreated every time his facts were challenged. His facts about the details of the death were wrong. His facts about elections and the leadership structure were wrong. I mention that fact that Xolox was fresh out of his Boca Junior Underoos at the time and that he was not living in either the Heritage or the Ark not because being young makes him a liar but because it explains why his second of third hand information is so flawed. His "I was there" statment is misleading. He was probably living in Cordoba, Rosario, Tucuman or Paraguay for that matter and had no first hand knowledge whatsoever. If he disclosed the names of his parents I could tell you exactly where he was.
Xolox is a poster boy for TF of an ex-member who will play fast and loose with the facts in order to try make a point that is damaging to the group.
WE DO NOT HAVE TO STOOP THAT LOW. WE DON'T HAVE TO DREAM SHIT UP. WE CAN DEAL IN FACTS AND TRUTH BECAUSE TRUTH IS ON OUR SIDE. ...And to do otherwise is to disrespect ourselves, disrespect our loved ones who have died and weaken our position of credibility.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 17:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am not in league with anyone but I do my homework and know many others SGAs who were in South America with me very, very well. These individuals were old enough to be very aware of the leadership structure and where people lived and contain firsthand information of the events that Xolox has referenced as well as spent time in different Homes in South America. Based on Xolox knowing David R. at age 15 they place Xolox in Cordoba, Rosario or Paraguay/Southern Brazil. I have verified other issues pertaining to abuse in South America and verified their information from multiple disconnected sources. Xolox' ignorance about the leadership structure and factually inaccurate statements lead me to not consider him a credible first-hand witness.
By Xolox' own admission: "There's much about your information that that leads me to believe you do have an authentic source". Xolox would much rather speculate about who I am or who I know or where I was than address the fact that he was deliberatley misleading when he stated "I was there".(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From xolox
Friday, February 04, 2005, 16:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Once again you miss the point! This was never about self respect, though you stand to lose cataclysmic amounts of the stuff when you blindly push forward regardless of how wrong you are.
And PLEASE spare us the unrequited rhetoric, so many of us left the cult because we couldn't stand being preached at.
You build this comparison with the intent to parallel me to Borowik. Another example of your penchant for tossing around personal insults when your argument won't hold water. Get off it already!
I don't think you're fooling anyone here, and we don't need your crippled attempts at heroics. At least I don't, I'll speak for myself here, and only myself. I wish you would do the same. You act like you're doing us all a big favor.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 18:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
"I'll speak for myself here, and only myself"
Okay. Speaking for yourself and yourself only...Answer one simple question:
When you said "I was there" did you mean the Ark, the Heritage, Buenos Aires or South America? Because I got the impression and I imagine many others got the impression that you meant you saw these events with your own eyes.
If you clarify that you meant South America or the Interior of Argentina and weren't clear enough then I will withdraw my statement you misled us. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From xolox
Friday, February 04, 2005, 20:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Let me set you straight on one thing. I don't give a damn what you think, you could be some self agrandizing megalomaniac for all I care, and you can put your statement where your imagination best serves you. But and one has to wonder what your stake is in all this.
So your 33 years old. I know some people (specific people) who fit your age demographic who perpetrated some terrible things on people my age. Once again I ask, who is your source and what is your stake in this?
And now I'll ask you a pointed question, who are you? (reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 23:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
"self agrandizing megalomaniac"...shucks...that the nicest thing you have called me all week. You come across as rather belligerent but sometimes you blindside me with a compliment and I don't know how to react.
You will find that I have not criticized anonimity at any level and do not criticize you for maintaining yours. I am sure you understand that "outing" someone publicly is irresponsible particularly if they told you something on the condition of anonymity. I have expressed skeptism about your version of the story because it conflicted with 3 people who were there at the time and are now out of the Family and not on friendly terms with the group. 1 guy was at the Heritage and was 16 at the time. 1 lady was 17 at the time and 1 guy was 19 and they were both at the Ark. Their accounts all differ with yours in the follow aspects:
-Claire's awareness and association with the event
-Claire's position at that time and therefore her responsibility
-When and where the death occured and time frame involved
If you have additional first-hand information about this and can demonstrate minimal knowledge about the Homes, shepherds, etc. that in no way compromise your identity then I will take you at your word that you were there and apologize for my skepticism.
My stake in this: I am disturbed by the fact that the current TF leadership has placed all the blame for sexual abuse that occured in the late 70's and early 80's (and some of the physical abuse that occured into the early 90's) on individual family members and only weakly apologized for not anticipating these "misunderstandings" of the Word before abuses occured. I think TF leadership has tried to revise history and underestimate the quanity and degree that abuse occured and I think the posts on MyConclusion.com are indicative of that effort. I am therefore interested in maintaining the credibility of legitimate claims and if possible providing the person abused with additional information and witnesses that can confirm thier accounts. I also like the idea of quantifying the abuses by a non-biased third party so TF leadership and spokespersons could not publicly minimize and dismiss these claims.
When someone presents a very serious accusation that even ex-members deny occured, I would be pretty certain that TF leadership would pounce at is as opportunity to discredit MOST claims of abuse. The ex-members that I communicated with said the story was bogus so I challenged your account. My challenge was met with skillfully evasive rhetoric (that's a compliment), claims that "I was there" and accusations against me and my motives and the accounts that I was given by people there. Your reluctance to offer details and lack of knowledge about Claire's roll and who the shepherds were served to INCREASE my skepticism.
I think you pieced your story together from some 2nd or 3rd hand stories and used your imagination to fill in the blanks and proceeded to paint yourself into a corner.
The Xolox Challenge
Xolox claims that he was "there" at the Heritage (though he has admitted that Matias was living at the Ark)
1. Name four of the members on the Teamwork at the Heritage at the time?
2. Who were the Jett shepherds at the time?
3. What city was the Heritage located in? (It was in greater B.A. but what was the name of the city)
Bonus questions:
4. How far away was the Ark from the Heritage?
5. What city was the Ark located in?
6. Which CROs explained the sad news about Matias to the Heritage?
My guess at Xolox response? "Yawn". "I don't need to answer those stupid questions". But If I am wrong I will promptly apologize.(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 12:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
ErikMagnusLeshner, good morning. "Self agrandizing megalomaniac", yes perhaph I went a little far.
This post won't be a tit for tat as I belive it's become unproductive and beside the point. I'm actually pretty new to this site and don't know how long you've been frequenting, so I'm not sure what your tune has been in the past. Once again that's another matter.
I gave our conversation some thought, something kept nibbling at the back of my mind, and I apologize it's taken so long to put two and two together, but here it is.
I don't believe you are who you pretend to be. You pretend to be so concerned with the veracity of facts while constantly confusing the issue by going off on unrelated tangents. I believe your mission here is to provide a moderating voice in defence of Family leaders with obective of attempting to nullify the more serious of accusations, thus clouding the issue (and serving some personal gain?). One has only to read between the lines of some of your other posts in regard to abuse to see where you stand. Not all of us are blind as you would like.
I say this because after reviewing your (source/s) story, I've come to realize that the reason all this seemed so familiar and just didn't sit right was that your version of the event are exactly to a T the "official" version of events we were told by the leaders to swallow in the early '90's. (this being the broader issue of inter Family politics)
Another thing that gave you away was the allusion to the Nixon thing. You say you've always wondered how the journalists felt. How long have you been wondering, since the '60's, the '70's? You claim your 33 years old, but I wonder about that. (even if you are, I doubt you're a political historian). There's a very large gap in the collective Family conciousness when it comes to real world politics, not surprisingly this gap coincides with that period of time that saw Nixon fork his hands at the sky. For most of the older generation the '60's (and Nixon) were a monumental time and a lot of them (you?) have a habit of constantly refering to the whole watergate thing when pressed to present a political point (it's all they/you really know, or think you know anyway), others simply mention it in everyday conversation when trying to make a point. Like you.
What has been most suspicious about your behavior, and I've mentioned this before, is your constant request for information, and more information, while giving none. I have been reluctant to give you what you ask for several reasons. a. Most of the information you ask for would serve no other purpose than to identify me, something I will avoid beacuse, b. I don't trust you, I don't know you but I think I know who you work for, and I won't be tossing any granades your way without first pulling the pin. (Please take it metaphorically) c. I belive your sources are still in the Family, furthermore I believe you are too. And not just in some lackey home either.
I believe you (and or your source/s) are guilty of the very thing you are so eager to pin on me, the deliberate missleading of everyone here through the uttering of false statements! And the reckless flinging of accusations.
That being said I will withdraw my request that you reveal your source, I believe they are irrelevant (see above paragraph). I have said before I don't care for your oppinion, it means nothing to me. I don't owe you an explanation, and I don't understand why you believe you even deserve one. You cannot change what I know simply because a story you heard is different than mine. But here's what I find the most ridiculous about your demands for information to "prove" myself, and that is your apparent belief that if I were to spout off the right information you would be satisfied. I could answer every question you like, that would only prove one thing at best, that I have a source of my own. Any intelligent person would realize this. Really, what does it prove, that I made a phone call? The proof you ask for would not be proof at all. You simply want my information, and I think the reason is clear. I have information that makes you uncomfortable.
Skillfully evasive rhetoric is something that any Family apologist would admire, it is no surprise to me that you do. But keep your compliments to yourself, a compliment from you is no compliment at all.
As far as where the Heritage was located, it wasn't located in a city at all, your trick questions are no good here. I'll do you one better, here's the exact address.
La Escuela Rural Herencia de Pilar - Milla 85.5 via Panamericana, Milla 85.5 Ruta 8.
Jonny and Jonathan (consecutively)were my Shepherds.
The exact distance to the ark? Get real, I don't even know the exact distance from my bathroom to the bedroom. I never claimed to live there so again you wander off... (Earth to Leshner, come back).
The drive between them could take well over an hour depending on the driver, and the vehicle. If we could even get the bus or the Leyland push started. Many times there were detours to small homes on the way, this could take even longer.
I've gone far and beyond with specifics.
This is all you get from me, if it still poses a problem for you well, believe what you like, it's why you're in the Family isn't it?(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 20:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Is that your final answer?
The questions were crafted not to prove you had been to the Heritage but rather to prove that you were there as a first hand witness to the events that you described and still retain your anonymity. The property was opened mid-eighty's and wasn't closed until post '93 raids so to have never been there while in the country would probably be the exception.
As FrmrJoyish aptly put it "We all know that noone could even shit in TF without permission from the higher ups".
For you to not list the "higher ups" of your own home at the time you claim to have been there does create a credibility problem for you, Xolox. If there's one thing every kid knew it was who the hell was in charge of their home.
In response to your Lehnsher-is-a-cult-spy rant I would match it with a theory about how you are secretly really some fat WS guy still in the Family and trying to create credibility problems for this site but I think at this point it's beside the point and I don't believe it myself. How you logicly define any of my postings as remotely helpful to the TF I won't even try to figure out. My articles and comments speak for themselves. I am content that people can make their own judgments about both of us.
I will post the answers to the questions Sunday night as recounted to me in great detail. When an ex-member who was a Teen/EA at the time (and therefore no culpability or angle) tells me that while at the Ark, they saw a very weak Matias walk with assistance to a light blue and white truck to go to the hospital on a sunny Wednesday and wept when they heard on a Friday night in a meeting in the "Pavilion" that Matias had "gone to be with Lord" shortly after arriving at the hospital and their account is backed up by others I place a lot of confidence in that.
I would imagine that given the size of those Homes there's a high likelihood that at least half (hopefully more) of those Jett/Teens/EAs are now out and a percentage of those frequent this site.
I am satisfied that people who were there can base their opinions on which account is more accurate based on their knowledge of the situation. If they were there and care to anonymously chime in and/or confirm certain aspects they are of course more than welcome to. I regret reviewing these sad events out of respect for his kids and all those that loved him but I think it's better than letting your account go unchallenged.
Xolox account:
"He died of acute perithonitis right on the kitchen floor on the Heritage school! Claire Borowik..The one resposible for your fathers death is representing you to the world". "I was there."
After I post the answers I will give you and anyone else who cares to post the last word. (reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 21:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
The Heritage was raided in 1985, and it had been in operation for a few years by then. How then is it that it opened in the mid eighties? That first raid was The first of two (THE TWO) major events of the heritage. Turning points if you will. Your criticism is particulary strong on the issue of timeline, I think maybe you should have another conversation with your source.
God why am I getting drawn back in?
You have my answer, I have yet to see yours.(reply to this comment) |
| | From
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 23:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
OK, maybe there is a confusion as to Home names. La Herencia was opened after comet Halley and before "Liberty or Stumblingblock," which came out while I was there. So it was latter 1986 at the earliest. I slaved away on the typical binge of work involved in Home opening. I helped clear out the wide purple ribbons left by the widow who lived there that went with her husband's coffin flowers.
The first area "teens," male and female, slept in bunkbeds in a 2d floor area through which one had to pass to get to C and C's room. This was very convenient as C could easily get a teen girl any time he wanted or send C to get one. At his previous Home, which was only a few "puentes" down, he had to go or send someone downstairs to the converted garage to take someone up to the 2d floor, or go to a trailer. The oldest teen at the time who is in FCF now, one of the first Family kids, was about 15 but she had a relationship with a different adult. I remember long, dark awful hours in their room while being elsewhere in my mind. I was rescued by "Liberty or Stumblingblock," but I know someone who was not. That 2d floor area became a children's room seen in newspaper pictures in 1993.
Trailers were also parked at various places on the Pilar grounds. They were popular on Romantic Nights.
I don't know about any 1985 raids at the Herencia.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From xolox
Sunday, February 06, 2005, 12:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I just looked into something else. I have it on good authority that Matias was suffering form side pains which he himself refered to as "mi Higado...", years before he even went to live at the heritage, and that he spent days at a time confined to bed because of it. And was on several prayer lists. This was not as sudden as you claim. Matias was at most in his early 40's, not as old a man as you claim. Besides, he was one of the best tape and video salesmen in the country, you think they would not have been aware of his spending innordinate amounts of time in bed?
The Heritage had a policy of collecting all Passports, Birth certificates and other paperwork from people arriving, and I don't doubt considering who you work for (you said WS not I), that you have access not only to these records of commings and leavings, as well as financial information should you request it from your boss/shepherd. Your qusetions were carefully crafted yes, but not for the reason you claim. My answer was carefully crafted to show a timeline, though I'm not surprised you missed it. I will never forget having to push that big yellow shool bus before breakfast, (and sometimes after, though when it interrupted devotions I was thrilled), later the Leyland became the main mode of mass transport, which we also had to push. (over and over down the gravel driveway).
I wonder what your next "muddy the water" move will be.(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Sunday, February 06, 2005, 22:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
As promised this will be the last post by ERIK the alleged (THE "Blind Little", "Muddy Waters", Hypocritical, unrespectable, "self agrandizing megalomaniac", Older-Generation, Still-In-The-Cult, Argue-like-a-Family-person, Personal-information-Coveting, Former Leader and abuser) LEHNSHER on this subject.
Summary of Xolox claims/clarifications
Xolox initially stated:
"He died of acute perithonitis right on the kitchen floor on the Heritage school! Claire Borowik..The one resposible for your fathers death is representing you to the world". "I was there." "I can reminisce." I understand from Xolox' statements that he was claiming or giving the impression that he was a firsthand witness to the events he described.
Looking over Xolox' subsequent posts there's frankly no longer much to argue about: Xolox has removed himself from the scene as a FIRSTHAND witness to the tragic events that he described (but he has volunteered information that someone who lived at the Heritage at some time would likely know). After a brief and fleeting attempt at saying Claire was the Area sheperd at the time (secretly if not openly) and where "the buck stops" he was relegated to saying that she might have been one of MANY responsible or indirectly responsible for not making sure her flock had better healthcare prior to 1988. He has conceded that Matias lived at the Ark and did not die at the Heritage (much less on the kitchen floor) but during surgery at the hospital.
He has added that Matias did take care with his diet due to his liver and had health concerns about his liver for some time. Also that he was no older than early 40's when he died. He may have been on prayer lists at different times. I don't contest those statements.
Had Xolox originally stated that had Matias not been in the TF with its ridiculous aversion to doctors he might have received better healthcare and lived and that because Claire was a shepherd (albeit of another home and probably not aware of his peritontis attack--similar to acute appencitis) and previously an area shepherd that she, along with others, could have been indirectly responsible for his lack of care and tragic death in the Hospital while living at the Ark...I would have soberly agreed with him.
As stated probably 10 times, I place a lot of importance on our collective credibility because I think it's essential in order to seek justice. I think it would be very sad for a disturbing and detailed firsthand account listed on this thread by an anonymous poster (in defense of my timeline for when the Heritage was open) describing Claire facilitating (her husband) Cacho's having sex with teen girls both at the Heritage and the previous home a few peuntes down (I think I have heard it referred to as "Lagartos") were dismissed as "another exagerated story". Those are the types of questions I would like to see Claire address rather than why all the Family members under her juristiction prior to 1988 didn't have adequate healthcare. Or even worse how she was "the one responsible" for a man dying on the Heritage kitchen floor because she required him to have faith for healing and prevented him from going to the hospital. Watching Claire honestly deny that rather than address and/or lie about other issues where firsthand witnesses could contradict her accounts would be, in my opinion, a travesty.
As I aluded to in another post I do regret not privately contacting Xolox and raising the concerns I had about his accusactions rather than conducting a public interogation or shakedown that Xolox obviously didn't appreciate and did not endear me to him. I am sorry that it appears that in some cases tenured members of this site who I respect a great deal such as Nancy and Frmrjoyish felt that in challenging Xolox' facts I was rudely casting doubt on other accounts of abuse and/or being insensitive which was not at all my intention.
Xolox promptly and graciously corrected his error about the Heritage being raided in 1985 and therefore open prior to that. It's possible that Xolox might have been more than willing correct his statements publicly without this spat but I didn't give him that opportunity and I regret that. If I may address Xolox: You're an intelligent guy and a skilled debater and I would like to extend an anonymous virtual hand to you and say "Lo siento, Flaco, por no escribirte directamente antes de presentar publicamente un desafio a tu version de los eventos."
The irony that the likelihood that my friends who recounted these events and facts to me were most likely pushing the Leyland, or the Bus (or the tan Mazda minivan that had replaced the bus at this time of this event) right next to you is not lost on me. Unfortunately, for many of us the legacy of our time in the group is that participation on this site is done with paranoia-level security. I will never DEMAND anyone's identity nor publicly identify myself or any of my friends that are ex-members. The fact that I could be arguing with someone that I know rather well would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Without further delay:
As recounted to me to the best of their ability to recall events.
1. Abi L, Jonathan V., "tall" John F. and possibly Rejoice were shepherds of the Heritage at the time of the event.
2. Ben (Mexican) Jett Shepherd
3. Heritage was located outside of Pilar or Mapuche.
4. The Ark was roughly 10-15 minutes farther out from B.A. than the Heritage. It's possible that the route was changed by the drivers for security reasons and they could have stopped by other homes but there were no other homes technically on the way between the Heritage and Ark. Matias used to love playing the equivalent of squash on the fronton court next to the dog kennels/laundry area and worked in the Kitchen the Ark.
5. The Ark was located in or near Fatima down an incredibly bumpy road by "Suavegom" that the blue and white pickup and the old brown Ford Falcon stationwagon would get stuck in when it rained and have to get pulled out by a funky orange tractor that was frequently push started.
6. Abi CRO (Damaris) spoke with Matias' 3 sons at the Heritage (J. had been living at the Ark with his Dad but was moved over to be with his brothers the same day Matias died) and eventually the home. Tall Andrew CRO (AKA Levi) simultaneously conducted a similar meeting at the Ark in the "Pavilion" informing teens and up of the sad events.
I will give Xolox the last word as well as any other former members that were there and care to confirm or challenge this information. I am satisfied that people can judge me based on my postings and judge the version of the events presented based on the firsthand details offered.
I regret reviewing these sad events out of respect for his kids and all those that loved him but I thought it better than letting the Claire Borowick/Heritage Kitchen floor account go unchallenged. Rest in peace, dear Matias.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Nancy
Monday, February 07, 2005, 06:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
You know, as much as you make all this extrinsic information sound important, it just isn't! It's just a big giant waste of time arguing about who was in the GAS position and the NAS position and who was on first base!!!
Further, as I stated before, I am suspect of anyone who wants identifying information, but provides none of their own.
Xolox, you really do have much better things to do with your time than to argue with this screen name here, as that is all he/she really is, a screen name. Xolox, if ever your story or your information or what you witnessed is going to be of some good, it's certainly not going to be here. Move on my friend and let this fellow go find someone else to argue semantics with. You'll be surprised how fast he'll find some new unknowning soul.
Also, I want to remind folks, there are WS SGA/FGAs out there posing as ex-SGAs. I would be very cautious who you correspond with and what information you give. Those posers are out to wreek havoc and they're not above lying their way into being trusted by unknowning folks.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Monday, February 07, 2005, 16:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hells yeah. I have been out since 1999. I didn't specify it in every post because you can click on my name and see my public profile. You can also email me anonymously by clicking on my name because I'm not posting on this Article any longer. But don't even think about telling me who you are because I don't want to know. I honestly am disappointed that others don't see the value of credibility firsthand testimony and that my concerns make me a likely "mole"...But I guess that's life. Over and out.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Monday, February 07, 2005, 17:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Erik, don't worry about these accusations. Almost everyone on this site at some point gets accused of being a "Family mole". I've been accused of it many times myself. :)
I for one agree that it is important that facts are accurate. On the other hand I can understand that it is upsetting when something someone experienced themselves is questioned by someone who was not there. I'm glad you and Xolox were able to discuss this without resorting to trailerparkisms.
Could I please request that there is a stop to these sorts of accusations. On this web site everyone is accepted at face value unless you have EVIDENCE to show that they are misrepresenting themselves.
Thank you. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From the dump
Monday, February 07, 2005, 16:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Here it is, Eriks profile.
"SGA. Don't have a lot of bitterness about time in the group but leaving in 1999 was the best decision I have ever made. Would like to see Family leadership honestly apologize and assume true responsibility for abuses in the 70's, 80's and early 90's by resigning. I have basically started a completely new life and career and have no links to the group so I appreciate the opportunity to communicate anonymously with others who share some of the same very unique experiences growing up and keep up with latest news."
Does it seem a little over the top? "...have no links to the group"
Strange thing to put in a profile.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Monday, February 07, 2005, 19:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am O-U-T....OUT! I am OUT! ArgghhhH!!! [5 minute delay while Erik smashes his forehead against the computer keyboard before he recomposes.] By no links to the group I mean no links. I basically conduct my life in such a way that nobody that I work with knows that I was a kid in a cult. I don't get newsletters...don't send money to anyone in the Family. My 2 kids are being raised in such a way that they will hopefully NEVER BE AWARE OF THE EXISTENCE of the group. That's what I mean. If there's a less suspicious way to phrase that I'll be happy to consider suggestions...
--Very tired Erik
Jules, if I can write you and trust you that you will keep my personal information private I'll be more than happy to do if it will stop these accusations. You no doubt have logged my IP from home and from work...if you need I more I can provide it.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From xolox
Sunday, February 06, 2005, 23:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sure and sometimes we'd ride the buggy to the Max. And the lowcuat trees were next to the pears. There are a million details
I know that Ben Mexican was not in BA at the time. He did not move there till close to '91.
"He has added that Matias did take care with his diet due to his liver and had health concerns about his liver for some time. Also that he was no older than early 40's when he died. He may have been on prayer lists at different times. I don't contest those statements." Oh but you did earlier.
You just can't get it right no matter how long you make it. When I made a mistake I freely admited it. You have not. I suspect this has long become a matter of pride for you. Get over it dude.
As it is you've taken enough of my time.
A vos tus detalles siempre les falta algo boludo, cambian con cada quento. Ya te has vuelto ridiculo con le repeticion de lo que ya comprobe equivocado. Ahorrate mas perdida de orgullo (porque con voz es cose de orgullo), Igual a voz no te contesto mas que tu mierda ya se volvio vieja.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 11:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Once I was allowed to visit my sibling at the Ark. When I was driven there from the Heritage in Pilar, I was not allowed to see the route being driven. True, I was a bruised apple (OK, a rotten apple), but it is my sense that if you were young or rebellious enough, a lot of those facts you are asking for would be kept from you. So your sources may have been in better standing for being good little disciples. I'm just saying. (reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 16:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
The fact that you mention a drive from the Heritage to the Ark and the security associated it with it would lead me to believe that you were indeed there. If you mentioned that they drove you in a funkadelic blue van that should have had a picture of Scooby Doo and Shaggy on the side of it would grant even more credibility to your story. I'm not in "doubt everyone's story" mode but I mention this because YOUR story demonstrates details that would be seen rather than heard. There's no substitute for seeing something with your own eyes and people who do are able to describe things with minimal detail. When someone recounts a story and mentions that the Ark stank sometimes because of some factory nearby it adds credibility.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, February 04, 2005, 16:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's a good start. Now how about admitting that you were wrong to directly implicate Claire any more than any random adult in the TF in the country at the time, that you didn't live in the Homes in question at the time, that you have absolutely no first hand knowledge of the situation and that your "I was there" statement was therefore misleading. I am not an anti-"hearsay" campaign. Many former members of all ages possess all kinds of first hand testimony and information that can be cross-checked and confirmed at multiple sources. Unfortunately, in your situation your information and therefore your premise to hold Claire directly accountable was wrong. That's the only point I wanted to make.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Jerry Springer fan
Friday, February 04, 2005, 18:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is reminding me of a Jerry Springer episode I once saw.
Mister Xolox, were you actually there at the Home where this happened?
Mister Lensher, You have said that you think Mister Xolox is wrong about his facts and making this up as he goes along. Is there anything that you (or your mystery source) could ask Mister Xolox that would prove he was not there at the arc? Something he would have to know if he was there?
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Baxter
Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 04:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
How the hell is 'Apostate' supposed to be an insult, coming from a deviant?
(reply to this comment)
| from banal_commentator
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 21:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
The cult in Japan is telling their followers that it was an accident. I spoke to my mom about this and she said it was an accident. I'm like "Um, wrong mother" and shes like "Oh banal, you need to watch the sources that you get your information from". I'm like, let's see hmmm sources sources. For starters, the media, the police, his closest family members, someone who was actually there??? But I guess my mom was right I shouldnt be listening to all those fools, I need to get all my information straight from the ass of Zerb. to become an enlightened individual like her.
(reply to this comment)
| from DarkAngel
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 21:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sam ,don't worry about Horrowich she 's about to get what she deserve.
I believe you and your account of the event .
I feel sorry for Abe his wife ,his family and what he had to go through
You also know off course that his dad and Mom are spreading the same thing as Horrowich as far as the accident story goes
I wish his dad would wake up and stop being an ass.It would be time for him to do something good with his life for his younger kids and his older ones too.
As far as Phoenix goes it's along time that she rotting inside ,sucking up to petey and mummy is not helping her much
I'm still hoping for someone to expose the group in Japan so that Abe's death could also be beneficial in helping more members to leave this hellhole .
What happened to the ones that have the info. and can do something about this????
Don't let assholes grab your emotions and bring you down the pit.Thanks for sharing what happened ...
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | From hum again
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 01:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hara/kiri sounds better Hara meaning stomack ,Kiri meaning to cut.
Just thought to help with some languistic input
Not picking on you or your japanese spelling,just helping along the way...
Yes it seems that in Japan harakiri used to be the honorable thing to do when you had fallen short of your responsabilities and let others down.
There are still occasional cases of this custom
In my opinion it would be the appropriate thing for Peter ,Maria and any other of their crew to think about Harakiri as they have let down thousands of followers and hurt countless souls despise their so called inocence.
I 'm quite convinced that they don't have the gut to do any of this and probably look at it as a barbarresque custom.
In their world lying and hiding behing simple souls Is the honorable thing to do....
To live another day and spread the weirdness in the name of their so called God of love IS to give their all .
I guess I must be reading a wrong copy of the Bible since none of what I read so far seems to match any of their ""NEW WINE"" beliefs
I thought that the "good sheperd was supposed to give his life for the sheep"instead of hiding under a rock when all hell break loose....
I guess the new leadership follows Berg's footsteps and break the Law in any way they wish, since they follow the Higher Laws of God they probably have Carte blanche from their "LOVER" to just dodge GOD'S apointed judges
Tts 3:1
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From I guess
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 22:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University"
I guess it goes to show that even the most literary sources can't always be trusted same as Family's apologetics religious nobles ...
May be "Princeton University" should review their sources and learn from some Japanese folks themselves or will they teach the Japanese how to write and spell their own language??? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Genius
Tuesday, February 08, 2005, 07:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
I you were speaking english then there would be no problems but it seems to be an international board with all nationalities represented .
Anyway if you were just anglicising like you'd like to me to believe then you would say "harakiri."simply because "harikiri" doesn't make any sense and doesn't mean anything.
Sorry there is actually some cheese by that name ??
By the way if you are so litirary informed you should off course know that Harakiri IS the englicized version,not the idiocized one.
As you off course know the japanese language use kanjis and hiraganas and katakanas and none of it would help YOU to communicate ,so to make it easy for folks like you there is the romaji version , meaning using english alphabet letters to express Japanese words .
So to boil it simply for you "Harakiri" IS the englicized version.
Now if you want to be a proud American and express your self with words that make no sense then have a good time...
Thanks for considering me a genius,it always feel good to receive sincere appreciation.(reply to this comment) |
| | From cocomojo
Tuesday, February 08, 2005, 09:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Don't be such an idiot as to lump all Americans into one category.
By your comment I'd venture to say you've never been to America, or have simply met a limited class of American. There are some very open minded Americans around. Open your eyes.
What does being a proud American have to do with making no sence?
So no American has ever made sence to you? And all americans have been proud to a fault?
Seems to me you have some cultural predudices to work through.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From porceleindoll
Saturday, February 05, 2005, 16:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
Kamikaze is divine wind or wind of the gods:
from http://mtmt.essortment.com/kamikazeinforma_rglb.htm
(check link for more information)
Information on the Kamikaze pilots who died for their Emperor.
In 1281 Japan was under attack by a Mongol invasion. The attack was led by none other than the great Kublai Khan. But, just as it seemed that the invading Mongols were about to overwhelm the Japanese, a great typhoon swept through the land, destroying the entire Mongol Army. From that point on the typhoon that saved Japan has become known as the Kamikaze or Divine Wind.
By 1945 it was apparent that Japan was losing the War in the Pacific. As a last ditch effort to turn around their flagging fortunes, the Japanese revived the name Kamikaze and applied it to the suicide missions of their air force. Japanese Vice Admiral Takashiro Ohnishi had noted that the most effective way to inflict damage to warships of the allies was to crash planes into them. He pointed out that one accidental crash could do more damage than ten planes firing machine guns. It was decided that pilots would henceforth purposely crash their planes, which were to be loaded with half a ton of explosives, into enemy warships. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From DarkAngel
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 01:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
Could be ,although Phoenix beeing the top dog in Japan and beeing aware of all the dirty laundry ,covering up,and helping to spread the madness and supporting the different retraining programs that took place in Japan is in my opinion much more responsible.She knows most of the horrors that kids went through and off course her own kidds she should be more aware.
As far as Tommy he will just please whoever he needs to please to get by another day I think he knows that his son was going through though times ,I've been around and heard some of it .
But he is caught between a rock and a bad place. I also think that they got some counsel from the top *Petey ,Mummy and Phonyx to keep things quiet ,as the last thing they want is the authorities to start checking things out in relation with another high profile suicide in the US with Ricky.
They will do everyhing possible to keep things under the carpet to avoid any repercutions with the legal system...
It a great time to rattle their cage and shake the tree..... (reply to this comment) |
| | from EyesWideShut
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 16:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey, little bro,
This is Sunny. I know how frustrated and angry you are feeling. I wish you had seen Claire Boro-witch on the ABC broadcast over here. If that program did nothing else, it make her look like a parroting retard. It's sad that she's the best foot the Family's got to put forward. I'm just glad I'm not in the Family any more and that she's not defending me. Yikes. I think Dan Dan could do a more convincing job.
Point is, we don't know if any of us will ever be justified, or if we'll ever see our vision of cult termination. We can do everything we possibly can at every turn and we can certainly hope that the truth will eventually beat the shit out of the perpetrators, but it's certainly a possibility that the Family could go on dispite our best efforts. If only because certain things are hard to prove and prosecute. We have no control over justice.
We can only control our state of mind, who we listen to, and who we ignore. No matter how angry they make you, and they will piss you right off over and over again, you can't let them anger you, because that's them having power over you--just in a new way. To be completely free of the cult you have to come to a point where you are dead set against them, but they do not cause you to be angry or fucked in the head.
When I saw you at Abe's memorial, you said you felt you would just explode from the events you had recently been through. I understand that feeling and am going through that now. When I read Claire Boro-witch's stupid stupid words, when I read the GN's the Zerb is putting out on this, when I come to "Jesus speaking" (that more than anything else), I fume. I get so angry and it has nowhere to go. I wish I could channel it, but there's nothing I can really do. If there was something I could do, that anger could fuel a lot of fire.
So in writing this, I'm reminding myself that I'll just have to crawl back into my cocoon again, stop reading every article, and stop getting on movingon.org so often, because it hurts too much. You have to put all of these things out of your head. Refuse to let them anger you. The only way to do that is not to dwell on things that make you angry. Your body will gather poisons from the pent up stress, and you'll start to get sick easier. I've been there.
It will be a happy day if certain people are ever brought to justice, if our stories are validated, if our brothers and sisters are free from the brainwashing, but until then we have to live our new lives the best way we can. And that means doing everything we can to be happy with what we've got.
I love you bro. It was wonderful seeing you. Don't hurt any more. Anybody that matters in your life knows that your story is true. And anybody that says otherwise doesn't matter--at all. So ignore them. If you were stateside you could take her to court, yes. But that might be straining at a gnat, considering how little water her word carries.
More importantly, did you see the "testimony" Steve posted on www.myconclusion.com ? You know him better than I do. You should call him and put him straight about who these "liars" and "apostates" and "enemies" are. He used the terms so generally, just like he's been taught, but he needs to put a face on those terms and be educated in the facts. He wasn't abused, but lots of other people were. I have too much to say to him. He just needs information and education. Little bugger.
Ok, love you. Write me an e-mail, k?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Cosmicblip
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 15:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
If you do decide to sue for libel I doubt you would get any sort of positive ruling on your behalf. Ms. Borowick’s word is so completely worthless & untrustworthy that it’s questionable whether or not anyone believes her anyway.
Her word need not even be compared against someone’s of a differing opinion (other ex-members), as she contradicts herself:
If there were no reported cases of child sexual or non-sexual abuse there would not have been a need to implement any restrictive rules in regards to this. Common sense would have us wish that this were the case. Since rules were supposedly enacted, one can induce that leadership had indeed been made aware of said abuse. If this is the case then there should be evidence of investigation or prosecution. This evidence does not exist according to Ms. Borowick’s statements. Therefore, what forced the enactment of these supposed rules? (I say “supposed” because I was never made aware of any firm new rules in regards to FF’ing or child sex. These things seemed to become less common, or demand less attention, over time.)
If TF is an association of independent communes, then how can one spokesperson be expected to speak on their behalf, or be entrusted with the responsibility of this? Thusly, she is not capable of speaking in any detail about anyone or anything in the cult except widely held & commonly accepted beliefs & policies. She was not present for many, or any, of the things that she speaks about.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Cosmicblip
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 08:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hehe. Remember on the Anderson Cooper show when she was being interviewed? She was wearing a purple turtle-neck with a gold cross necklace. But the necklace was half-way down the neck of the turtle-neck & ever time she talked it would bounce up & hit her on the chin. It just made me think of all the scrotums hitting her on the chin from the all the cock-sucking she probably did to get that job.
Heck, she was probably "anointed" with the "inspiration" for the job during sex with somebody. And we all know how that goes. People say all kinds of things they don't mean when they're having sex. "I love you" is a good example of something random that has no meaning said during sex.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from John La Mattery
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 15:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Don't worry Sam, don't let her get to you. We know what happened that night, she wasn't there, nor was I, but I'll take your word over any Borowich they can throw at us any day. It's not worth dragging Abe's memory thru the mud. Hang in there bro, and get your ass over here in good time to work with me, we'll deal with Claire later.
Your Brother
(reply to this comment)
| from Nancy
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 09:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Where are you in the world? I ask because I believe there may be a defamation case here if you're interested in pursuing it. Jurisdiction would be an issue, however.
I would like to receive email from individuals who have been attacked, maligned or defamed by Claire Borowik. I think a civil action may arise on behalf of those individuals. I would be willing to get involved legally on a pro bono basis or referral. The suit could be brought against the organization itself, as she is their agent. Her own statements to the media would be excellent evidence. Your case would be a good example, as she was not present. We would need to find economic damages, however.
I can be reached at cmadi2@yahoo.com
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From questioner
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 12:30
(Agree/Disagree?)
Looking at your profile, I am wondering, WHAT is a PROFESSIONAL missionary? Are the others unprofessional? I thought missionaries all lived by faith? So, I guess you don't fit that category? Are you trying to sound "legite" because of all the allegations against TF being really a cover for "manipulation and control" of its members? Most "missionaries" I know don't have to answer to the kind of accusations that are now being thrown against TF. What kind of "missionaries" are you anyway? Come on!!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Leocon
Friday, February 04, 2005, 17:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
You sound dumb enough!
Moved on....lets see what does it mean to me.........
Lets say I have an argument with someone and things got really heated up! But hey life goes on! I will CHOOSE to forget the incident and "move on" with my life!
Some of you here claim you have been hurt, in some way, by the Family, and some of you have!
The thing is that these "things" have been cleared up, in the very real sence of the term, and those who were responsible were punished! These "abuses" are NOT happening anymore! Do you get it? They are not happening anymore in the Family! It has been proven again and again in the court of law on various continents.
Come on, you all know this stuff!
OK, so you claim that there are still people in the Family who were responsible for instances of abuse!
Thats nice and all, but it is not going to get you anywhere if you do not have HARD EVIDENCE to show forth in court. And you all keep saying you have evidence. So if you do than go prove your claim.
But really, what is your point? You were hurt and maybe even abused (lets keep in mind that abuse has degrees as there are stars in the sky), but are you left with broken limbs that will inhibit you from functioning as a "normal" human? What is you ache?
Then some of you say you want to "rescue" your siblings. I just said that these alleged abuses are NOT HAPPENING ANYMORE, and they have not been for quite some time now!
Now if you had some up-to-date abuse stories which you could again prove, then you would catch my "watchdog-like" attention, because I can't stand anything more than a lie, but because you all seem to be dancing around the same "dead" fire, like a bunch of potential nutcases, I really have a hard time understanding your angle, especially when you all try to act like you have moved on. its such a joke,
And now I know there are going to be all sorts of comments in response calling me names like "stupid idiot" (courtesy of Joe H, I was using that sort of language when i was 8), SR, selfrightous prick, hypocrite, etc....., but hey you gotta be able to say something!
i will hear stuff like: "You poor deluded soul.....you have no idea what you are talking about....etc".
Exuse you, i DO know what i am talking about!
Last year in the space of 3 months i met and visited over 1000 Family members and homes! i got a pretty good picture in my head of what is going down in the Family nowadays!
You are the ones "outside" thinking you have your inside scoope on us!
Lets not forget that we are the ones on the Lookout point looking over the mass of people all around us! We are the few amidst so many!
Heck, I got great pals who left the Family, and guess what, they are still my friends, and they are still friends with the Family. They left for a reason, yes, but they are satisfied with the life they have chosen to live, and are respectful to those who have chosen to live in a completely different way!
You think we are the closed-minded? Look at yourselves! What is so open-minded about you? "Oh, i know the truth, and it is setting me free". Yeah, right! you sound sooooooo free!
this kind of thing will give you bad health you know! Why not look on the bright side? Why? Is there none? You got out of the "cult". you are living life as you would have it. You have a beautiful world to live in.
Why don't you get out of the city and take a nice walk in the woods. Soke up some sun and fresh oxygen, it couldn't hurt that's for sure!
Get a new perspective on life! MOVE ON to a more positive life! MOVE ON to a more positive frame of mind! Keep MOVIN ON till you are content!
Stop being so God damned stiff, like you got a stick up your ass! lets have a beer together and forget about this world around us! i will still be thinking about Jesus and you can go on thinking anything you want, but if what you are thinking is not positive than I don't wanna hear it!
Why should anyone on this site want to hear other people grumble and complain 24/7? You know they have mental institutes for those kinda people! I know you could all snap out of it........but you don't want to, do you!?!?
You all want to soak up one another's puss and backwash! Get Up and Get Over yourselves! Get busy helping other people (and you are NOT helping us) and forget about your damn self. Get so busy helping somebody with their problems that you forget all about yours!
Cheer up.....things could be worse for you!
(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Friday, February 04, 2005, 18:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
OK...I'll accept that I may sound dumb.
But for all your verbiage, you still haven't answered my question and I repeat: What is your definition of "moved on"?
Your comment is full of vague references to the term "move on", but I need concrete answers from you as to what that term means to you personally. Come on, give it your best shot. Explain it to me as if I was a real sheep that you were trying to witness to and win over to the Family.
You sound like a smart enough fellow, so I'm sure you can do better than that.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Joe H
Friday, February 04, 2005, 18:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
"those who were responsible were punished" I, and the rest of the sane people in the real world don't consider excommunication suitable punishment for child-molestation and sexual assault. In the real world, when a grown man gets a 15-year old pregnant, he goes to jail. When John PI did this to Kristy, he got excommunicated for one day. One day!! Then he was right back in the Family chasing after teen girls, using his status as a leader to coerce them into submission and intimidate them into silence.
The Family has never prosecuted a single case of child abuse, and to this day, their policy is not to prosecute, but to ask the parents to leave the Family if they wish to do so. If you or one of your younger siblings were sexually abused or raped by an older man, would it make you feel better to know that the man was no longer in the Family? Perhaps, but wouldn't you want to see him in prison, too? That is the only issue here. No one is actively trying to destroy the Family. Some people might get angry and talk about "bringing the Family down", but how would they do that, honestly? Do you think anyone who grew up in the Family and lived with the fear of having their home raided would wish that on someone else, especially their own siblings?
I don't think you realize what sexual abuse does to people. Just because you still have all your limbs and maybe no physical scars doesn't mean you don't live with the pain of it every day. You wrote: "You were hurt and maybe even abused ... but are you left with broken limbs that will inhibit you from functioning as a "normal" human? What is you[r] ache?" How can you be so callous? How can you claim to care so much about the people on the mission field and turn a deaf ear to the pain of those you grew up with? If your mind is so open, and your horizons so varied, maybe you should take some psychology courses and learn more about human nature.
On a final note, I'm sorry for calling you a stupid idiot. I did not realize that you had probably never seen the evidence of Ricky's abusive childhood, namely the Story Of Davidito. This only makes you ignorant, not an idiot.
All the best,
Joe (reply to this comment) |
| | From hmm
Friday, February 04, 2005, 17:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
so, as I understand it you're saying to "move on and leave our child abusing leaders alone" Dont YOU "get it"? we are upset because YOUR leaders are the ones responsible for almost every one of the "isolated cases of abuse" and no, for the most part the courts said there was abuse, just read the rulings for yourself instead of relying on the filtered version from your leaders. But, they found that they didn't have jurisdiction. Or the abusers had already skipped the country courtesy WS (and I dont want to hear the lame argentina babble, not even argentines believe their own judges)(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From
Thursday, February 03, 2005, 12:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Whatever you must tell yourself.
By the way, what does your husband Jesus think about you breaking the indoctrination rules?
I mean you spend all this time here, shouldn't you be jerking off to christ or something?
Here's an idea, since you love our company so much, why don't you just quit the cult? You'd recieve a warmer reception.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Jim LaMattery
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 08:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dude- I need you to study for the Real Estate License! LJ told me that you were doing that. Becoming the individual that you are is more necessary than rebutting the poison that has been flowing from Claire's soul, and TF's as well. JUST SAY NO! I'm excited that you want to come to America and build a new career with us here in San Diego. I would be honored and proud to have you part of our business. In the business world, we need salespersons that are willing to speak the truth to the customer about the product we sell. That's what makes children who were born and held hostage in TF such articulate and honest salespersons. They've had to live under so many lies that they can smell one coming from a long way off. But for now, put away trying to correct those who will take no instruction. They have been warned. May God have mercy if they do not heed the call to come clean. In the meantime, study, study, study! Use the discipline that you've learned while in TF to your highest and best use-YOU!-
PS- Kiss and hug your sweet wife and son for me! I already miss you both- Jim LaMattery
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from Bella
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 07:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree, Sam. Claire was very rude and disrespectful to you both! Don't worry about her, she is so not worth it. She will have a lot of answering before her God one of these days. Too bad she is too coward to answer truthfully now.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from banal_commentator
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 06:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yeah, well didnt she also say that kids in the cult were never abused? And didn't she also say that the "Davidito" pictures in that filthy book "were not sexual"? And didnt she also say that she didnt "necessarily know where Zerby lived"?
What can you expect from Zerbys little brainfart.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from LTN
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 01:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was at Abe's funeral here in Japan. We all grieved for him and there was no doubt of the account of his death as Sam put it--he went to the top of a tall building by the beach in Kobe and jumped. To say he and Sam were drinking and that he might have been drunk is not true according to what Sam has accounted of that night. Sam is a fine young man--honest and forthright. I've known him since he was a small child and my children and he are friends from childhood. He's a hard worker and a good and loving father who is supporting his little family alone here in a very tough country to live in. I admire him and respect him.
Sam, take no notice of Borowiks' account. --John--
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Nikisan
Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 01:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yea, Sam, I was particularly shocked to hear Clare B's denial of your account. YOU were there, she was not. I thought the media did well in showing her statement was illogical and could hold no weight against yours. She dug her own grave there. What a fool.
(reply to this comment)
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