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Getting Support : Speaking Out
Let us speak for ourselves | from Leocon - Friday, January 28, 2005
accessed 4598 times Something I wrote in response to the recent happening with Ricky Rodriguez and Angela Smith!
When you lost through losing it!
January, 17th 2005
Shocked! Sorrowful! Angry! Enraged! Sad! Sorrowful!
All these feelings hit me in concession, in the first 12 hours upon hearing the news of the murder, and then the suicide!
I am Emanuel Boder, 21 years of age and was ‘born and bred’ in The Family! I was born, in Santiago, Chile, as the second eldest of my family, and in my earlier childhood was raised in South America, Europe and India! My Mom and Dad were missionaries and taught me and my sisters to “Love God and our neighbor as ourselves”. Somewhere around the age of 11 my family, which now was comprised of 5 kids, moved to Africa! We grew very fond of the peoples, cultures and lands there and often made “pioneer” journeys to “darker Africa”! When I reached the age of 15 I began visiting other missionary stations around Southern Africa until I was 17.
It was at this time that I grew weary of the lifestyle of being a missionary, which meant giving your time and energies completely over to helping other people! A lifestyle where selfishness and self-centeredness are two things you got to give up!
At 17 I had lived in 4 continents and near to 35 countries! I had traveled like some only dream of traveling in an entire lifespan! I had experienced life through the eyes of other cultures and religions! I had been educated in “real-to-life” circumstances all my life! All while being a simple missionary for Christ!
But there came that time where I wanted no more of it. I wanted to settle down, get a job, make money, and live a “normal” life!
So for the next while I studied to become a Concert Technician, and I was real darn good at it! Soon I was working for a music company that would host the technical aspects of concerts that took place in the city! I had a team of 6 guys working with me, and in my opinion we were the best! Well, after doing this for a while, as well as working small time jobs in Supermarkets and Fast Food joints, I had built a pretty “stable” environment around myself…only myself.
Again I began thinking about my prior lifestyle and wished for the simplicity and straight forwardness that that life had! Here, where I was living for myself and money, things were so complicated and, well, twisted. There was corruption and confusion everywhere I looked. One of my co-workers did not even know what he was doing on planet Earth! I wanted to reach out to them like I had done for so many before, and how my parents had taught me, but I felt weak as well, and spiritless! Instead of helping them have hope and a reason to live, I was now in there with them and was beginning to loss faith myself!
Soon after this I reached a spot where I cried out to God and begged Him to clear things up and point me to the right direction! I knew that I had forsaken His work and I asked Him to give me the strength to change my selfish mindset, which was devouring me!
I knew I had to make a choice, something definite. So I promised my King and Savior that I would leave all behind and return to His work. About 3 weeks after that, I was on my way by plane to Poland, to join up with some other missionary friends! I was back in the game!
Since then I have never looked back. I know what I am giving my life for and I am exceedingly proud of it! I have devoted my life to helping other people both physically and spiritually in any way I can, and I deem serving my fellow man as the highest ranking job on the globe!
I and my fiancé are presently residing in Czech Republic, working here as volunteer workers, helping with humanitarian aid shipments to needy institutions and such! We are expecting our first child sometime around mid-August and are planning a near-in-the-future move to Africa, where we will continue to live to serve to the best of our ability!
Now to come to the reason why I am even bothering to write this; that being the deeply saddening event that took place on the night of the 8th of this month, I walked into our bedroom and found my fiancé sitting on the bed with a very stone-faced expression on her face. She began to unfold the “news” to me in monotone. I just stood there listening, not saying a word, until the first thing I said was “Are you sure?” I was shocked! Then I felt full of utter sorrow for the victim! I never knew her personally, but I knew of her and knew that she was loved by many more than just a few! I pray for her family and relatives that God gives them forgiveness and grace!
Than anger came as I thought of the psycho who committed this terrible crime! I wondered what was going through his head when he took this life, a life that was NOT his to take, no matter what his excuse! I thought he must have been frustrated, perhaps angry, or maybe just really, really pissed off, but what about?
I never met Ricky (Davidito), but everyone of my generation knew about him! I do not think very highly of him at all. So saying I rarely even think of him.
I heard how he had left The Family and how he had demanded financial assistance from his mother, Karen Zerby (Queen Maria), as well as how he had received ample financial assistance from her. Than there were his death threats that he made towards her and her husband. I still don’t get why the police did nothing about this murderer-waiting-to-happen scenario. He was psycho in the very real sense of the word. I was enraged! He had had everything dished to him on a silver platter in The Family and was taken in by David Berg as his son. He was loved and looked up to by the entire Family. He says that all he wanted was love? It’s like me yanking the AC cable of my TV out of the socket, and then plumping myself on the couch and yelling out “All I want is to watch MTV”. Just really strange!
He says he was abused, and I say I am Zeus! He says he was molested, and I say I am the Fairy Queen Mother! Where is the proof! That is one thing I could never stand, people who cannot prove their point! Anything from God and His Word I can take by faith! But, man, if you are going to accuse someone of a crime like child abuse, you better have some God d**n proof of it. If not shut up till you do!
I grew up in this so-called “sex cult” and I never was sexually abused, in any way, shape or form. I never knew anyone who was.
However my fiancé was a victim of the Gestapo-like raids that took place in Melbourne and Sydney, Australia, by people who were beating the same dead horse that Ricky Rodriguez was beating, and one that his confidants are still beating; child abuse and molestation. She was a nine year old kid, torn away from her parents and then placed literally in the hands of total strangers who performed every imaginable, and unimaginable, “examination” on her! When she tells me of how they strip-search her and than laid her on a table and proceeded to repeatedly jab their fingers “into” her, to verify her virginity, all the while looking on with gloating expressions, and then I hear these adult ex-members drawling on with all their sob stories of how they saw their nannies breasts and therefore they want to kill so and so for justice sake, I am appalled! Hello……get real! You might as well say that every mother\step-mother\child caretaker etc… who washes their child’s genitals, and thereby “fondles” them, is guilty of child abuse. What a joke!
I have read internet articles from Ricky, and the sort he confides in, where he states how he wants to “rescue” the rest of us! Reality check: We are not the ones who murder 51 year old women for absolutely no reason, we are not the ones making hate video’s where we portray ourselves as maniac’s, swearing to kill out of “justice”. I think it would be safe to say that people like Ricky are the ones who need to be rescued, and not us! “Those that live by the sword shall die by the sword”.
After the initial shock, I thought about the awful feeling he, Ricky, must have been feeling after he “did-the-deed”. I feel like crying every time I think about the hurt he must have felt upon having taken another life, the utter grief of mind, body and soul, enough to end his own life. I send my condolences to his ex-wife, and pray that she can overcome her grief, and that she will not hold this against The Family, nor against God.
I can only hope that the fear of God will rest in everyone’s souls, and that we can all move on with our lives. I also sincerely hope that all those who feel as Ricky felt, and who feel in any way hurt by the past, will be able to get over it and get on with their lives.
May God have mercy on us all!
Emanuel Boder (leozeth21@yahoo.com)
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Leocon
Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 13:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear responders and readers,
I have decided that it would be a waist of my time for me to continue to respond to this column. Mainly due to the 95% of articles which were written in extreme detestation, hostility, ire, and very little intellect, I will no longer be viewing this page.
But I would like to thank the other 5% (Erik being one of them) who seemed to conduct themselves, to a great extent, in an urbane and desirable fashion, at least in their literature.
May the good Lord always be watching over all of you!
P.S. It was really fun reading you all prattle on about "who I am". It had me and my peers in stitches.
If anyone would like to contact me her is my E-mail address: leozeth21@yahoo.com
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | |  From hmm
Friday, February 04, 2005, 18:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
Leocon, I'm confused. You posted this as if proud of some sharp wit or keen intelligence displayed in it. I'm looking; and all I see are the inane babbling of a closed-minded, education-challenged cultist. Tell me something brainiac; since when was a bunch of but-pals getting together and saying almost word-for-word the exact, same thing proof that you're all original, different and thinking for yourselves? Next time keep your Zerby drivel amongst those who appreciate it...(reply to this comment) |
| | From ack
Tuesday, February 01, 2005, 13:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear Leocon, you have wasted not only your time but mine as well. Your postings were uninteresting, mindless drivel. Your absence will not be missed by me. As for your gracious bow, are you kidding me?
Dear Leocon, Please do not take this as hateful, (you are not a factor enough to be hated), it's not ire, or hostility. As far as detestation goes, well maybe it is a little. But that started with your last post.
So long you selfrighteous prick!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from conan
Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 19:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, Emmanuel is it?
Well Emmanuel, I'm glad you found happiness and love in rejoining TF. I hope you continue to find peace and prosperity for the duration of your time in the group. (Psyche) That being said, allow me to say this: you are a brain-washed zombie who is too weak to stand for what he believes and so compromises and caves in under the pressures of "real" life issues.
I was never abused sexually as a child! For that I count myself extremely lucky. I was however, aware of abuses being carried out and as a child was unable to associate it with molestation and abuse and therefore unable to intervene. But I know what I saw. I know too that I was very often the victim of psychological, physical, and emotional abuse. Oh, and when I say very often, I mean like every day.
Eman, (can I call you Eman?) have you read the Davidito Book? I know it's been purged but there are enough copies going around to fill a building and I'm sure you've read the clips on the internet, possibly even this site. If you want to tell yourself that Ricky Rodriguez, the child we grew up idolizing as "Davidito", was not sexually abused during his very early years and then throughout his childhood, then there is no hope for your being.
It is sad that your "mate" was abused by those who were only legitimately trying to help her. Of course, brain-washing could influence her into deeming it abuse but that's another topic.
Do you honestly think Eman that the ex-members who have come forward and identified themselves as victims and also identified their abusers relish that role?? Do you really think that they are just so pissed that they can't afford that sweet jacket in the mall that they blame TF and so fabricate story after story of sexual abuse to get them some face time and then they can go ahead and get the jacket cuz they've had some face time and the money is rolling in??? Puh-leeze you mindless peon of the Zerby army. Think for once on your own and interpret each case as seperate, and not connected. Who in their right mind, even to get revenge on someone who "flashed" them or spanked them, would allow themselves the humiliation and degredation of public confession to something as private as sexual abuse if they did not have legitimate cause for their grief. I mean how you can even funtion at all with that mind is mind boggling...oh, my bad!!! I forgot; you Eman, are a mindless peon in service of Zerby....GO YE and so on and so forth...keep your self-righteous, melodramatic, "I hate Davidito" bull crap to yourself.
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| From Leocon
Tuesday, February 01, 2005, 12:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
A very saaaaad article indeed! Makes very little sence and at the same time makes the author out to be a complete luni!
Sorry, I reall do not wish to get into the same attitude which has obviously taken its horrible toll on you--whomever you may be. I hope your way of expressing yourself gets you somewhere in life!
God Bless You! And may God help you.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | from DeeJay
Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 01:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
It's funny how quickly TF is so quick to change their stance on something once something happens that "proves" them wrong. I too never knew Ricky and as such cannot pass much judgement on his actions, but hey, i grew up in TF too. Didn't we always worship the guy? wasn't he supposed to be one of the major "endtime prophets that would lead you in the last days?
If he was really sooooo "off-track", wouldn't you have heard something about it beforehand? seeing as you're all supposed to be so "spiritually enlightened"?? I mean did Jesus "tell you he was bad", and that's why you believe so and speak out so vehemently against him? Remember this, THE PERSON WHO COMMITTED THOSE MURDERS IS THE SAME FRIGGIN' PERSON WE WORSHIP AS CHILDREN!! he didn't have a "life-changing experience" overnight. He wasn't suddenly "posessed by a demon". He came to a decision of this magnitude over time, and it was in his view, necessary.
I'm definitely not condoning what he did. in my opinion, an individual's right to life is untouchable, and anyone who knowingly denies that right to another is deserving of of any and all punishment. My question for you is, think about it, "what drove him to it?" He too was a person, a glorified one at that, possessing the same common sense and mind as you do - WHAT WOULD DRIVE YOU TO IT? Now imagine you actually experienced that. If he was posessed by any demons, it was the demons of his past.
The fact that you personally never experienced abuse is irrelevant because the fact remains, many did, and many continue to struggle with the effects of that abuse. it's alittle naive to believe that because it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen to anyone else.
Most of us have "moved on" and lead happy, successful lives. is it unreasonable to want to talk about our childhood and what we experienced once in awhile? is it unreasonable to want to seek justice brought to those responsible? It's natural not to feel that way, if it's never happened to you, if it had, you would understand.
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| from xhrisl
Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 23:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
Emanuel,
Let me firstly applaud you for your willingness to discuss in an open forum certain issues that have been brought to the forefront of late. The recent tragedy involving the loss of life from members of both parties, Ex-family/Family, marks a sad day for the families, friends and loved ones of the deceased on all sides.
In response to your posting: I find it refreshing to hear the testimony of an SGA whose experiences in TF have been overwhelmingly positive. It is important to remember however, that each individual’s experiences are unique to themselves. As such it falls within the realm of possibility that many former SGA’s, particularly those posting here do not share in the viewpoint of an advantaged childhood. Ricky himself was one such individual. The evidence for this conclusion is no doubt apparent in the wake of recent events.
Upon hearing the news of the tragedy, I was greatly saddened for all parties involved, the amount of pain and rage, which he must have carried within himself to be able to perpetrate such an act is difficult to fathom. Your response “[…] anger came as I thought of the psycho who committed this terrible crime!” is natural. However, I am in disagreement over the reaction to label the individual as psychotic without making the distinction between the individual and the act.
In response to your apparent challenge, “He says he was abused, and I say I am Zeus! He says he was molested, and I say I am the Fairy Queen Mother! Where is the proof! That is one thing I could never stand, people who cannot prove their point! Anything from God and His Word I can take by faith! But, man, if you are going to accuse someone of a crime like child abuse, you better have some God d**n proof of it. If not shut up till you do!
I grew up in this so-called “sex cult” and I never was sexually abused, in any way, shape or form. I never knew anyone who was.”
It is fortunate for you that you have never been the victim of abuse, nor do you claim to know anyone who was. Some of us cannot in good conscience make the same claim. Furthermore, to deny the possibility that others may have been victims of abuse based solely on your own experience within TF is an argument akin that of a devout catholic denying the inquisition, based solely, upon the premise that they never witnessed it. In light of recent events, it would furthermore seem to me that the claims which Ricky made regarding abuses, which he maintained happened to him and others, might be examined a little more fully considering the lengths to which he went. While I do not condone his actions in any manner, it seems to me that he must have been suffering a great deal to put him in a position where he would inflict such pain and suffering on another person.
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| from Greensack
Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 23:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
How to make a Vandari Posessed Apostate in 10 easy stpes:
1. Spank subject as often and as close to infancy as physically feasible. When using discipline concentrate on corporal punishment as much possible.
2. If the child can stand the child can work. Busy street corners are the best place. You'll also need a guitar and a can. If you own a hardcase it will do.
3. Leave child in the care of sexual deviants. If you can arrange it so the child sees and participates in sexual activity the results will be obvious, though some might be more comfortable simply turning a blind eye. Best to do this one daily.
4. It is of the utmost importance to crush all signs of self esteem. At least twice a day.
5. It is helpfull to encourage the subject to babble incoherently, this can be accopmanied with violent arm waggling and mob hysteria.
6. Finding new and odd ways to accomplish grout and toilet cleaning as a form of humiliation is advisable. This one works better on properties with ten bowls or less serving 150+ population.
7. Denial of food. Speaks for itself.
8. A good thing to remember, is to convince the subject from an early age that he/she will take over the entire world, which incidentaly is comming to an end within his/her lifetime, you can spice it with delusions of paranormal powers, grandeur, and notions of heroic martyrdom.
9. While at this stage, it's good to install a clause that will enable the subject to mesh fantasy with reality. Train the subject to respond positively at all times to every request without question or hesitation. It is also advisable to lead the subject to believe the natural process of logical thought is separate negative entity i.e. The Devil. Likewise all positive traits will be attributed to a separate positive entity or God, thus helping to strip the suject of the concept of self.
10. Extended periods of isolation and/or silence can be very versatile, this works well when combined with 1, 2, 4, 5 even up to a week or more on this one, 6, and 7, (works particularly well with this one).
Of course a Vandari Posessed Apostate is not always assured, some young people actually choose to stay and take more abuse. It is not clear why though speculation is rampant. My best guess is that some bulbs just burn a little dimmer than others.
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| from
Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 14:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
I do not want to be a puctunation Nazi, but it’s seems Family members love to use exclamation marks. In general, they should only follow real exclamations or commands.
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| | | | from Wolf
Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 03:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Leocon, you are brave to post here, when most current members are hiding behind the “myconclusion.com” mask, where their posts can’t be answered.
Erik is quite correct: many current young people in the Family have no idea where we are coming from. You seem to be one of them. To be fair, it’s possible that people who left the group 8-10 years ago also have no idea where you are coming from, because the group has changed a lot.
I have addressed many of the misunderstandings that current members seem to have, in a separate article: http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=3&Cat=39&ID=2485
I would be happy to respectfully discuss these issues, if you are interested.
One of your issues that is not addressed in my article:
You wrote: “So if you, or anyone else on this site honestly believes that this is proof, than do something about it! If you believe you have proof of anything against the laws of the land in which you are resident in, than bring it to the law!”
Some people are working on this. The problem is, the people who abused Ricky are, with the exception of Sarah D., in hiding. At some point somebody may bring Sarah D. to court; the problem is, she was just a flunky, she was just doing Berg’s bidding, so while she may deserve some retribution she is not the one is really responsible for Ricky’s abuse.
I’m not sure what your definition of “abuse” is, but I can prove that Sarah D. was ordered by Berg to have sexual relations with Ricky when he was a young child. If you think it is not abusive for adults to have sexual relations with young children, perhaps it is you that needs a reality check?
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| from Marc
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 23:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
No offense Leocon . . . but please learn to write correctly in English before you attempt to communicate with those of us who have had a "real" education (since leaving your group, of course). Your post cries out to your lack of education (which we can all relate to, by the way).
All the best! Enjoy your "professionalism"!
PS: You must be too young to remember the Davidito Book, right? Or, in case you do remember it and need a refresher, check out www.xfamily.org where actual pages from the pre-censured book have been scanned and stored (pay particular attention to the photographs . . . need more proof?).
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| from ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 20:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
(Apparently reply at the reply level is not working so I am replying at the article level. Methinks this is gonna be a messy thread.)
The issues at hand are very charged emotionally so the occasional Family Member who drops by with what is perceived as a rebuke is often received...well...less than cordially. However, if your interest is in dialogue, I think you will find most participants are intelligent, insightful and respectful of your views and sincerity.
It is my opinion based on discussions with current members as well as reading many of the "Speaking out" testimonials on MyConclusion.com there is a huge disconnect between the issues being raised by many participants here and those being addressed at MyConclusion.com.
I might compare it to a political election where you have different candidates that represent different opinions. If a candidate is confident in the logic of his argument he will welcome debate and urge the voter to listen to both sides. When a candidate expends a great deal of energy trying to prevent a voter from hearing both sides I think it’s a bad sign. That’s not the greatest example and but it’s the first one that comes to mind. I’ll let you draw your own conclusion about that metaphor.
It is my opinion that many young people in TF don’t understand why “MovingOn people”/apostates/vandari are so viciously attacking the group and putting Family kids at risk and wish they would just go away or respect their decisions and let them live their lives.
This site represents a varied group of individuals, many of whom do not know each other and lead their own lives. There is not an established doctrine or opinion that one must subscribe to in order to participate or be a “member” of MovingOn. If you receive what seems like a rude response to an article that you post in the future, it’s not necessarily a reflection of what “MovingOn” thinks. It may seem a little wild at times but it’s freedom of speech in its purest form. So when I speak, I speak for myself and express my opinion only.
1. Many children experienced sexual and/or physical abuse while in the group.
2. The abuse can to be traced not back to some weak shepherd or mis-interpreter of the Word but directly and unequivocally to many letters that have since been purged.
3. The Family Leadership has issued some weak and vague apologies that assign guilt to Family Members for misinterpreting the Word and accepted a degree of fault for not be more clear or anticipating abuse but have side-stepped true responsibility and accountability for their actions that promoted illegal behavior.
4. Furthermore, Family Leadership has in my opinion gone to great lengths to try to discredit members claiming abuse and encouraged Family Members to take a view of them based on characterizations such as “Vandari”. I find this to be self-serving and very insulting.
5. The Family Leadership will not cooperate with former members seeking legal action against “Uncle Pedophile” and is content to hide him within different layers of the organization rather than disclose his location.
6. Most of us young people on this site do not support wide-spread police action against your average Family Member. Some of us know what it’s like to “flee” and be arrested and have our Homes raided. In fact in many media interviews it is clarified that the goal is not a witch-hunt where Homes are raided because we don’t think any abuse has been condoned or tolerated on a wide scale level since the early 90’s.
7. Overwhelmingly participants on this site do not support what Ricky did and feeling that the resolutions to these issues are not violent ones but rather based on honest discourse.
Despite having left TF in 1999, I have not participated much here and feel that I personally have “Moved On” and am at peace with my life. (You can view articles that I have posted but clicking on my name.) That does not mean, however, that I take kindly to seeing my friends lied about or misrepresented.
Responding to your point regarding using the law to prosecute individuals rather than just talking about it: It’s not as much a case of charges not sticking to “Teflon Don” in court as it is a difficulty in locating individuals. It’s not a coincidence that the Family Leadership does operate in plain site. In a lot of cases it’s not as much a desire for vengeance and to see someone go to jail for the rest of their lives (though in some cases it certainly is!) as it is a need for closure based on a sincere, honest and heartfelt apology.
Despite having left the Family many of us little have families of our own and our lives aren’t always that different from current Family members. Sometimes after a long week we like to relax, kick back and have a romantic evening masturbating to Jesus. (5 seconds of awkward silence followed by Erik falling out of his chair laughing). Okay that was cheap shot and both literally and figuratively “below the belt” but I thought I would add a little levity to a long droning post.
Have a good weekend.
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| From Leocon
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 13:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Quote: "1. Many children experienced sexual and/or physical abuse while in the group.
2. The abuse can to be traced not back to some weak shepherd or mis-interpreter of the Word but directly and unequivocally to many letters that have since been purged."
Let me, for a moment, enter into a virtual reality and say that what you claim is true!
What exactly do you term as "sexual abuse"?
What exactly do you term as "physical abuse"?
How long ago did this "abuse" take place?
Has this "abuse" had a negative effect on you? If so what is the effect?
What exactly makes it impossible for you to overcome what you claim happened to you?
Does dwelling on your hurt help you live your life with more furvor and inspiration? Does it give you enthusiasm for your day?
Quote: "3. The Family Leadership has issued some weak and vague apologies that assign guilt to Family Members for misinterpreting the Word and accepted a degree of fault for not be more clear or anticipating abuse but have side-stepped true responsibility and accountability for their actions that promoted illegal behavior."
Apologizing to Supreme Courts and Supreme Court Judges, and to the international media; you call this "weak and vague"? Than what exactly would you see as a "valid" apology? And, yes, guilt lies in the individual member making wrong decisions, which sometimes were due to his/her twisted understanding of the Word!
Quote: "4. Furthermore, Family Leadership has in my opinion gone to great lengths to try to discredit members claiming abuse and encouraged Family Members to take a view of them based on characterizations such as “Vandari”. I find this to be self-serving and very insulting."
You all need to seriously re-study your issues about the "Vandari". YOU are not the "Vandari"! The "Vandari" is the term used to address a group of demons that attack The Family through any way possible, and using antagonistic Ex-members is one of those obviously! Again, we in the Family are not calling you Ex-members the "Vandari", but sad to say a handful of you are being used as tools by these forces of Satan!
Quote: "5. The Family Leadership will not cooperate with former members seeking legal action against “Uncle Pedophile” and is content to hide him within different layers of the organization rather than disclose his location."
So far, what sort of "legal action" has been attempted? As far as your little "Uncle Pedophile", they have all been ex-communicated! You saying that they are "hidden within different layers of the organization" is speculation, your word against another persons word!
"Disclose his location", what a joke! Honestly, I personally feel that anyone in the Family who is the least bit clever, will be very careful, from now on, with disclosing his or her whereabouts to Ex-members who carry grudges! I am not ready to give my address out to people who are in any way associated with murderers or those swearing revenge! When Ricky, out of hate, bitterness and the search for revenge, commited this gruesome cirme, it did nothing to help the general public's view on what Ex-members are doing with their "toubled minds" or how they seem to not be able to get on with their lives! Realize here that I am talking about only a select few of the Ex-members and not the majority who have indeed "moved on"!
As far as points 6 & 7, I think otherwise, but will give the benefit of the doubt to you!
I am thankful, Eric, that you have made peace with your life and that you have moved on! I am sorry if you found anything in my article that had anything to do with you "seeing your friends lied about or misrepresented". I am by nature very direct and I hate "grey zones"!
Something though about your "Teflon Don" is that since when do you have to find a person before you file a complaint of abuse? So what if you do not know where Mr. so and so is living, that is for the government to find out (and they always can) and not for you! Your duty is to report your abuse to some "Keeper of the Law", of course backed up with enough evidence to support your claims!
So far all the pictures and outcries of supposed abuse that I have seen (And I have been to just about every "Smear the Family" site that there is) would not last a minute in court; ok maybe a minute! (That is if you get any law firm to take the Family on with what "evidence" you present.)
Eric, God Bless You and I wish you also a wonderful weekend!
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| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 22:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
What exactly do you term as "sexual abuse"?
Dictionary definition:
sexual abuse n.
The forcing of unwanted sexual activity by one person on another, as by the use of threats or coercion.
Sexual activity that is deemed improper or harmful, as between an adult and a minor or with a person of diminished mental capacity.
What exactly do you term as "physical abuse"?
I agree with JohnnieWalker's recent desription of abuse in response to a similar question by me:
1) spanking a child to the point of bruising.
2) placing a child in isolation for an extended period of time
3) denying a child the right to speak for weeks on end
4) denying child food for several days
5) denying a child the right to an education and/or punishing the child for reading educational material.
How long ago did this "abuse" take place?
I think the majority of the sexual abuse took place 1977 and 1988. Physical abuse in terms of excessive discipline took place on a large scale until 1991 or 1992.
Some abuse testimonials are compiled at: http://www.movingon.org/abuse.asp
A very long but very comprehensive document is the judgment in the Pearl Case in England. If you have the time read: http://www.exfamily.org/art/misc/justward.htm
The "OBEDIENCE, CRITICISM AND "MURMURING", "THE ROLE OF THE MO LETTERS", "THE FAMILY'S ATTITUDE TO LIES AND DECEPTION", "THE ORAL EVIDENCE RELATING TO SHARING" segments of the above referenced JUDGMENT OF LORD JUSTICE WARD document may be helpful to someone was born in 1984 in the sense that they describe an environment very different from the one currently in TF where members have a great deal more freedom. Someone who was basically a toddler in 1986 may not have a full appreciation for what the environment was like and the degree of loyalty and unquestioning obedience required by the group during that era.
Has this "abuse" had a negative effect on you? If so what is the effect?
Answering for myself, I was out of TF between 1978 and 1986 and was never abused based on one of the above definitions. My personal issues with TF are based on principles of honesty, accountability, justice and the prevention of abuse in the future by other groups who may to choose to follow the "Abuse/Reform/Deny/Re-write history/Undermine credibility in accusers" model.
Unfortunately some have struggled with the results of abuse more than others. I think it's important to remember to that this crime is not defined by the amount of grief experienced by the victim but by the act itself. The degree of suffering might be a mitigating factor at the sentencing phase but with regards to pedophilia has no bearing on the definition of the crime.
You won't frequently see a violent thief defend himself in court with a statement like: "Okay. I stole 100,000 from Bill Gates. But he's a freakin' billionaire! I know he's bitter about it but I would like to know how much pain he realistically suffered? C'mon it's a drop in the bucket for him. And, Yes, I did break his nose when I punched him in the face before I stole the money but the guy's got the best plastic surgeon on the planet. I mean look at him! You can't tell anything ever happened to the guy! Nose is as good as new! I would like to move on beyond this unfortunate incident. I rest my case."
Apologizing to Supreme Courts and Supreme Court Judges, and to the international media; you call this "weak and vague"? Than what exactly would you see as a "valid" apology? And, yes, guilt lies in the individual member making wrong decisions, which sometimes were due to his/her twisted understanding of the Word!
An example of a sincere apology: http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=4&Cat=24&ID=2536
Dude, I think you are reaching individual guilt argument. At the time many of these events were taking place, the only "wrong decision" a Family member could make was to not fully follow the Word. Who was misinterpreting the Word when Mene was having sex with men and then virtually tortured after expressing doubts in Grandpa's Home? (Read an un-purged version of "The Last State" lately?)
You all need to seriously re-study your issues about the "Vandari". YOU are not the "Vandari"! The "Vandari" is the term used to address a group of demons that attack The Family through any way possible, and using antagonistic Ex-members is one of those obviously! Again, we in the Family are not calling you Ex-members the "Vandari", but sad to say a handful of you are being used as tools by these forces of Satan!
I stand corrected.
However, based on the link below because I support accountability for Family Leadership am I not one of the "clean-cut handsome looking man in his early 30s" participating on an ex-member web-site and morphing into a dripping-with-blood demon?
http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=1&Cat=31&ID=835
The handsome-looking part did make me blush a little...awe shucks.
So far, what sort of "legal action" has been attempted? As far as your little "Uncle Pedophile", they have all been ex-communicated! You saying that they are "hidden within different layers of the organization" is speculation, your word against another persons word!
Many members have been ex-communicated for actions after 1988 and I think that's a good thing. However, ask Mama if a male individual who had sex with a female child or teen prior to 1988 would be permitted to hold a position of leadership at the CO level. Unless the sexual activity was very public it will always be one person's word against another.
"Disclose his location", what a joke! Honestly, I personally feel that anyone in the Family who is the least bit clever, will be very careful, from now on, with disclosing his or her whereabouts to Ex-members who carry grudges! I am not ready to give my address out to people who are in any way associated with murderers or those swearing revenge! When Ricky, out of hate, bitterness and the search for revenge, commited this gruesome cirme, it did nothing to help the general public's view on what Ex-members are doing with their "troubled minds" or how they seem to not be able to get on with their lives! Realize here that I am talking about only a select few of the Ex-members and not the majority who have indeed "moved on"!
I agree that the Ricky/Angela tragedy has made relations more difficult between current and former members. And...yeah...If my name was "Paul Pelloquin" I would be probably be sleeping with one eye open. At least I could comfort myself with the fact that Claire Borowick doesn't know who or where I am.
So far all the pictures and outcries of supposed abuse that I have seen (And I have been to just about every "Smear the Family" site that there is) would not last a minute in court; ok maybe a minute! (That is if you get any law firm to take the Family on with what "evidence" you present.)
Are you suggesting that if something is not provable in court then it didn't happen?
Would you find it troubling if I started a New Religious Movement and gained a loyal following and proceed to instruct my flock that I was the voice of God and they needed to obey me? What if I then proceeded to created an isolationist lifestyle and ordered female followers on down to children to record videos of themselves dancing naked on video? What if these videos were documented as part of the Pearl court case?What if I said (May 1980 The Devil Hates Sex):
"There is nothing in the world at all wrong with sex as long as it's practised in love, whatever it is or whoever it's with, no matter who or what age or what relative or what manner - and you don't hardly dare even say these words in private. If the law ever got a hold of this, they would try to string me up! They would probably lynch me before I got to the jail! When Paul said "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient" (1 COR 6: 12), he was as good as saying, "I can indulge in any kind of sex I want to, but I've got to watch out for the system because its against the law!" (Maria: At least not let'm find out if you do it! )... We are free in privacy, and that's about all, and we mightn't be free if they discovered what we do in private!... There are no relationship restrictions or age limitations in his law of love.... If you hate sex you are one of the devil's crowd! If you think it's evil, then God and love are evil, for he created it! Come on, let's love and enjoy it like God does! he loves it.!"
What if I said:
"If people don't obey and don't do what they are told to do and don't follow the Letters and disregard leadership and disrespect all the laws and rules, they are not one of us! We can't have disobedient rebellious wilful stubborn soldiers who can't take orders and even follow suggestions, not in this man's army"
What if I published GN 485 and excommunicable offences were divided into those which were "spiritually polluting problems", namely a chronic murmuring and voicing doubts; those which were "physically polluting problems" which are (a) sodomy and (b) sex with outsiders and thirdly "security risks" which were (a) taking illegal drugs (b) having sex with minors (c) repeatedly yelling and going into angry rages and (d) giving DO literature to outsiders. Thus inferring that sex with minors was neither spiritually or physically polluting and merely a "security issue" and something theoretically okay if nobody knew about it.
What if I did and said all this and then disavowed all my writings and instructions regarding these illegal activities after 10 years? What if nobody could find me and all cases were merely one person's word against another's? Or people were simply too ashamed of the abuse that they suffered to come forward? Would it still be okay with you? Would it be acceptable with you for me to run a New Religious Movement and continue to give messages from Jesus to my flock? What effect do you think my ability to "get away with" this type of behavior would have on an aspiring "David Koresh"?
For me it boils down to accountability. I find the fact the Maria and Peter facilitated and assisted in the publishing of material that encouraged Adults having sex with children, using abusive disciplinary methods to train children and teenagers, lying to legal authorities (Romans), and permitted the abuse of Ricky and Mene in their household completely unacceptable. It appears to me that you obviously feel otherwise.
P.S. I took the liberty of processing your postings through the "Lehnsher" Pschyo-Analyzer and it generated a profile for the following: A short, slightly chubby middle-aged women with glasses and brown hair who has been in the group for 30+ years, has developed a strong belief system and suffers from herpes. Sometimes the analyzer is wrong and if you are indeed a 21 year old SGA male who is disobeying Mama's admonitions to not go to these types of sites for your own spiritual health, then I think you are educated and indoctrinated beyond your years. I mean that in a complementary way. Most 21 year old guys in The Family don't engage in this type of intellectual debate so you do stand out and I have enjoyed this discussion as time-consuming as it has been.(reply to this comment) |
| | From analysis of variance
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 12:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think your "Lehnsher" Psycho-Analyzer is correct about Leocon being someone other than a 21-y-o guy raised in TF. This person is a fairly accomplished apologist, though I suspect from the pedantic, legalistic argumentation this is a slightly chubby middle-aged MALE who has been in TF 30+ years. If Leocon is female, when did she have the time or opportunity to develop her intellectual skills? Between babies 3 & 4 or 7 & 8? Perhaps she wasn't a baby factory for Jesus and is a member of that leadership elite who managed to have no more than two children and a household of nannies to look after them. (reply to this comment) |
| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 13:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
I know plenty of intellectual females and a few in TF regardless who have many kids. I am guessing that in this case, your theory that she stopped having kids a long time ago is accurate because the emotional maternal instincts element is weak. Ladies who have had kids in the last 20 years are generally more sensitive to issues regarding pedophilia.
For me the the main giveaway was the "You are soooooo weird!" response to questions about "Loving Jesus", masturbation, speaking in tongues while having an organism. In the group I developed a tolerance level for these type of quirkly doctrines by trying to ignore them but I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER met a young man in the Family who REVELLED in these practices and I am talking about Teen boy "slacker" up to VS or CRO. During a "Fast" or "Feast" day reading when it was the guy's turn to read: "Jesus, please take your long, hard penis and fuck me and pump me full of your delicious semen seeds of life!" you could see the guy physically struggling to actually get the words out of his mouth. A 21 year old male, while using his legal name would not take the bait and address these issues let alone respond like that.(reply to this comment) |
| | From analysis of variance
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 17:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
You've made some very interesting and helpful observations. About the time s/he launched into an uncritical moral relativism in defense of "quirky doctrine," I knew this wasn't a 21-y-o concert technician.
I shouldn't have made that snotty remark about Family women being too busy having children to develop their minds. One of the greatest female intellects of the 19th century--Elizabeth Cady Stanton--had 7 children.
I'm dealing with a lot of anger toward Family women who actively participated in the abuse, especially the ones who put the girls on sharing schedules. Maybe the boys were put on sharing schedules, too, but I haven't read as much about that. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 22:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey, Erik,
No need to say that you stand corrected on the Vandari subject. The ex-member participants of this site adopted the name Vandari and have claimed it as their own. As far as I'm concerned, we own it.
I don't care if The Family thinks it refers to a peculiar species of morphing demons who love rats and marinate themselves in blood every night. They weren't smart enough to trademark the name, so I believe I have every right to call myself a Vandari if I want to and give it any meaning I want to.
In light of this, I will now take a moment to make a profound statement to the administrative arm of The Family International:
Nanny-nanny boo-boo!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 09:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh, you mean words like "cool", "nice", "sexy", "tall", "male"? Yeah, I've claimed those for myself.
Or were you referring to the nastier four-letter words? If you were, why on earth would you want to be so insulting?(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 17:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
"...a handful of you are being used as tools by these forces of Satan."
So what proof do you have that these demons, the Vandari, actually exist? Has their existence been proven in a court of law? Do you have actual hard evidence (photos, vidoes footage, footprints, blood samples, dental records, etc) to prove that they exist?
Or are you just taking someone's word for it?
As far as your claim that all the Uncle Pedophile's have all been excommunicated: you really should do some research before saying something like this. Not only are many of the people who are being accused of having sexual contact with minors still in The Family, but several of them are in positions of leadership. Ask Maria and Peter if you don't believe me.
I appreciate the fact that you've come on here and expressed yourself. But please try to do a bit of research before sticking your foot in your mouth like this. If nothing else it would allow people to focus on the main point you are trying to make instead of picking on your uninformed statements.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Leocon
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 05:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
You guys are all just great with being general and all!
Well Sir Walker, since you obviously have done heaps of research on this count you should be more than willing to disclose to me the legal names of those "people who are being accused of having sexual contact with minors still in The Family".
Common and give us some specifics!
About 2 months ago I was in a 3 week debate with some guy obsessed with Evolution, and everytime I would get him in a corner, demanding evidence in specific 1+1=2 terms, he would back out! I hope it is not the same here!(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 09:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sure. I am more than willing to do so (Thanks, Wolf for the first 3):
Paul Peloquin (a.k.a. Josiah)
Robert Fernandez (a.k.a Solomon)
Victor L. Trigoso (a.k.a Francis Peruvian)
Lonnie Davis (a.k.a. Mark, Claire Borowick's husband, spokesperson for The Family)
Claire Borowick (Lonnie Davis' wife, spokesperson for The Family)
Prisca Kelley (a.k.a Sara Davidito)
Kevin Anthony Brown (a.k.a. Matthew or John PI, 3rd in command in The Family, right below Maria and Peter)
I'm sure the list is much longer, but these are the names that come readily to mind.
If you feel that I have listed a name in error, plese fell free to write Maria and Peter and ask them to confirm or deny this.(reply to this comment) |
| | From JohnnieWalker
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 09:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
One more thing, The reason that I feel comfortable being general on some of these subjects is that they have been discussed in-depth elsewhere on this site. For me to repeat those subjects in their entirety would not only be a waste of bandwidth, but a waste of my time.
The evidence you demand from us has been clearly listed on this site. I believe this places the onus on you to read through what has already been said before attempting to debate with us on these issues.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From frmrjoyish
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 07:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Leocon, if you think you are such a scholar on Evolution vs. Creation I'd welcome that debate anytime. It gives me great pride to stump you Creationists and your unfounded religious rhetoric that you try to pass off as science. But be careful because, unlike many, I CAN put it in 1+1=2, or calculus, trigonometry, alegbra, or any other terms you want to put it in. And unless you really want to get creamed, don't even try and bring up the Second Law of Thermodynamics! (reply to this comment) |
| | From Wolf
Sunday, January 30, 2005, 06:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
Three names of sexual abusers who are still in the family:
Paul Pelequin (a.k.a. Josiah).
Offense: required girls as young as 7 to service him sexually.
Last known residence: Abidjan , Ivory Coast
Robert Fernandez (a.k.a Solomon)
Offense: Encouraged two children 10 and 11 years old to service him sexually.
Last known residence: USA
Victor L. Trigoso (a.k.a Francis Peruvian)
Offense: Had intercourse with many underage girls, one of them only 9 years old.
Last known residence: Vladivostok, Russia
These individuals have all worked in FCF projects in the past 2 years.
I can give you the “bible” names of several dozen more abusers; encouraging people to use aliases was very clever, now most of us don’t know the legal names of our abusers.
As for evolution, the guy you were talking with obviously didn’t know very much … the evidence is all over the place (I hope you're not one of those people who confuses abiogenesis with evolution). (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Leocon
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 14:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Like I give a hoot about the fact that you think my beliefs are wierd! Go to Africa and check out what strange and wierd beliefs they got! But to the African you are the wierd one!
I guess it all depends on where you are coming from! You obviously don't give the least bit of respect to my beliefs and practices (Which you have all screwed up anyway) so this lends you to a profile of closed-mindedness! What do YOU believe and practice???(reply to this comment) |
| | From Webel
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 17:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, I will take up the gauntlet - what do I believe in practice? I am a Judeo Christian and I believe that Christ Jesus died for the remission of sins in his death at Calvary and he is the Messiah. I believe that the Bible is the word of God and that the Torah is the old testament given to the Hebrews. I am against anti semitism as I believe that the Jews are God's chosen people. Judaism and Christianity are divided but I embrace both religions as one. I believe in the ten commandments as I believe in the law of grace and love (which by the way has nothing to do with wife swapping and sexual deviance) if you believe in the grace of God and you respect other human beings you will find yourself not breaking the ten commandments. Paul goes through great lengths to expose and reprimand sexual immorality in the churches. I believe in the sanctity of life and I am pro life, against racial discrimination and hatred, against violence without just cause, but believe that a person has a right to defend themselves and their families by any means necessary, I am right wing politically, I believe in the rights of animals and the freedom of religion where it does not infringe in the rights of others (and that includes children). I believe children have a right to their childhood and believe in corporal punishment only in extreme circumstances. I have a Kosher diet, rarely drink (nothing wrong with a cold beer though:) I don't smoke, don't do drugs (I have tried all of the above but as the song says "the drugs don't work). I am against cruelty to animals or persons as I believe we are all God's creatures. I don't believe in namby pamby religion and neither do I practice it. I believe in getting an education, reading the news and current affairs, fidelity, marriage and family - I feel nostalgia when I think of the family unit which was once alive and well before the Vietnam war and the baby boomers (the hippie generation) took over with all their sexual freedom and STDs. I believe a man and a woman's equality are defined by both having equal power but in different areas of home and work. I believe in tolerance without compromising what I believe. I will tolerate if an individual has chosen to do something that I disagree with, I will still treat them with respect BUT if it involves being abusive and cruel to someone who is helpless (ie a child) then I believe justice must be done. My husband and I give 10% of our income to Christian charitable organizations (that have never abused children).
I like the good old days and I would welcome them if they ever came again, but I doubt they will come back, things have gone too much the other way to turn the clock back. I am studying at College to become a counsellor and help people who have suffered like me (nothing wierd about that). If a person is hard working, honest and fears God they will be rewarded. Hope this answers your question, and I hope you get out of that messed up cult and find help and support so you can take that step to come out of TF's bubble (which is about to burst).(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From girl who remembers
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 14:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
Leocon, I just thought it odd that you would refer to Webel as the "weird one." You call yourself a Christian, but your masturbation, sex, and spiritism practices would offend and appall just about any real Christian. Frankly, I think people deserve the freedom to believe whatever they want as long as no one is hurt. You evidently wouldn't agree, because you call yourself a missionary and as such your goal would be to convert the "Africans with the weird beliefs" to your religion.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from FGA with sis still in group
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 20:28
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was trying to post this under "Duh" and it wasn't working, so, I am trying again here:
______________________
Were you ever in TF? If so, you would know what it means to be
deceived...it's a spiritual thing, not an intellectual one. If someone KNOWS they are deceived, then they are no longer deceived...DUH!
I, personally, never met David Berg or Karen Zerby; but even if I had, I
did not THINK in my right mind while in TF. I was taught to think like they did and to believe what they said was true, until one day I said, "Enough is enough". Until that time, I was, as you say, "trapped in the morally upside-down, ass-backwards end-time fantasy world of The Family" and didn't know it.
For the past 25 yrs that I have been out, it has been easy to see, but not so easy to forgive myself for making such a stupid mistake. But we learn and we go on, and we grow as a consequence. Thank God there is hope. It is the only thing that keeps us moving on and it is the only thing will help your parents and loved ones if they ever make it out. Pray that they will.
Even though we WERE deceived, this does not mean we should not take responsibility for our part in allowing ourselves to be vulnerable to that deception...that is an important part of the healing for ourselves. All I can say from my own experience was that I THOUGHT I was serving God...sadly, I was not, but God has forgiven me, because I asked him to, and I thank HIM for that.
(reply to this comment)
| From Duh-do-day
Saturday, January 29, 2005, 08:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
Please do not interpret my statements toward this 21-y-o SG who says he chose to rejoin TF after leaving as being relevant to your case or that of your sister still in TF.
I was in TF and I know what it means to be deceived. The power that sociopaths wield over their victims lies in their uncanny ability to exploit the human weaknesses that make us vulnerable to self-deception.
I chose to identify as a selfish systemite because I find that perspective more helpful right now than speaking from the standpoint of deceived victim. When I looked at the factors that set me up to be "deceived victim," I concluded that my best defense from ever going there again is to always question authority and to be very skeptical about claims other people make about the truth & reality.
On an emotional level, I refuse to bond with anyone who is in a one-up position of power. I like and admire my boss very much, but I don't love her or look on her as an heroic leader. I am extremely wary of ever developing an emotional dependency with someone who could recreate the role of abusive parent.
This is an issue FGs & SGs need to look at very carefully as they move on with their lives as "selfish" systemites. There's nothing selfish about taking care of yourself and refusing to act out of a victim mentality. People in TF and many Christians are terribly confused about it means to serve others in a spirit of sacrifical love.
As far as being a systemite is concerned, I would argue that true-blue, sold-out Family members (which I don't believe applies to Leocon) are every bit as much systemites as any of us out in the world who fail to question authority by following political and spiritual leaders without critically thinking about the implications of what they say and do.
My identity as "selfish" systemite is an ironic pose. I don't fit into the world I inhabit now any more than I would fit into the new, reformed Family in which child sexual abuse is no longer preached as a "godly" form of sexual socialization. I believe Leocon is struggling with the Third Culture Kid issue of not having a place to fit in and feeling like his options for service to God and fellow human beings are pretty much limited to what he knows from growing up in TF.
It is very difficult to make your way in life when you are a person without roots in an environment that can sustain you. This is something I thought about after watching Ricky's tragic video. That is what I was thinking about when I posted my response to Leocon. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Webel
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 19:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
What you are doing is dissing Zerby by dissing her son - and I find your comments apalling and lacking compassion, bizarre coming from a group that teaches you to "love" don't you think? and what happened to loving your enemies written in the gospels? do you still believe in the Gospel or are you still looking for your freaking keys? Ricky became an enemy because of what he suffered. It doesn't make his action of murder justifiable but we don't know what was going through the tortured mind of that young man, he felt responsible somehow for what happened to us when it clearly wasn't his fault but his actions later of murder/suicide were tragic but I believe his life could have turned out very differently if he had given it a chance, we were cheated out of having him around, he still had so much more to offer but didn't know it.
And finally, some people have no soul and are callous beyond measure by killing their children but I don't believe that any Mother in their right mind can bear to lose their son.
(reply to this comment)
| from duh
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 19:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
Ricky did not murder Angela "for obviously no reason." Watch his video, and he'll tell you exactly why he killed her and then himself. Ricky was so filled with rage at his mother that he slaughtered Angela trying to get at his mother. Angela might be alive today if Ricky had gotten to his mother first.
So ask yourself why a "normal" son would hate his mother so much? Was Ricky "abnormal" because he was born that way? Did the Devil make him do it? Do you suppose there's even a small possibility Maria MIGHT have done something to provoke and nurture such a violent & self-destructive consuming rage in her son?
According to Ricky, she & Berg did unspeakably cruel, perverted things to him and other children growing up in the "royal" household. The evidence supporting his claims of pedophilia, cruelty, and every other form of child abuse imaginable in the royal household are published in numerous Family documents. Besides the Davidito Book, take a look at the Mene series.
I do not believe it is possible to serve God & your fellow human beings with integrity and honor through affiliation with a organization founded by self-admitted pedophile (Berg). Your spiritual leader, Queen Maria, has all the criminal traits of a sociopath. That is how she looks to all us "selfish" systemites who take care of the mentally ill or work with criminals and other deviants. That is how Maria looks to just about anyone who isn't trapped in the morally upside-down, ass-backwards end-time fantasy world of The Family.
(reply to this comment)
| from yeah
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 18:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I understand your need to defend what you think is your "way of life" but the facts are that people older than you are (mid 20's to mid 30's) were abused in the name of the "law of love" by your leaders. You can read the various posts on the subject on this board on the subject for the reasons many are just now bringing this to light, but the facts are that your leaders were responsible and have not made remediation to their victims. Yes this is not the only religious or otherwise group that perverts have used their positions of power over children to abuse their charges, but most have done thier best to purge those that were responsible and ensure that it doesnt happen again. As for persueing them via the "laws of the land" it has been made abundantly clear that most of these offenses happened in 3rd world countries etc. where there is little chance of a foreigner charging another foreigner, especialy regarding something that happened 20 or more years ago. This is not an attack on you personally, it is a problem that your leaders need to address.
(reply to this comment)
| from Leocon
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 17:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Eric....I want to thank you for being the first one to respond in a calm and, what you might call, sensible fashion.
To respond to all about what you said, and I quote, "I think demands by Family Leadership to "get over it" and to "stop beating this dead horse" are no more constructive than demanding that you wife get over her tragic experiences in Australia."
To be truthful, she has gotten over it! It is not something that plagues her, or something that she vents out in anger and hatred towards the "ones" who were responsible for mis-handling her. She has, in the very real sense of the term, "moved on"!
You also stated: "Proof is spelled D-A-V-I-D-I-T-O B-O-O-K. Not mention a load of letters that were purged in the late 80's and early 90's. Re-writing history is not as easy as cutting out pages form a book."
So if you, or anyone else on this site honestly believes that this is proof, than do something about it! If you believe you have proof of anything against the laws of the land in which you are resident in, than bring it to the law!
What good are you doing just sitting around and talking about it?
And, Eric, the best to you too!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from ErikMagnusLehnsher
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 17:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
I respect your decisions and sympathise with your wife's experiences. I do disagree with many of your conclusions and think that you have frankly been misinformed regarding the degree and type of abuse that occured. I think demands by Family Leadership to "get over it" and to "stop beating this dead horse" are no more constructive than demanding that you wife get over her tragic experiences in Australia. Proof is spelled D-A-V-I-D-I-T-O B-O-O-K. Not mention a load of letters that were purged in the late 80's and early 90's. Re-writing history is not as easy as cutting out pages form a book.
That being said: Dialogue is an important step and as combative and condescending as some posts by current Family members (okay and some former members) may be, I personally welcome the communication. This site is by definition "created by and for young adults with parents who joined the religious organization The Family / Children of God." It sounds like that includes you. All the best.
E.M.L.
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| from xolox
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 16:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
What a fat hypocrite! You want to wander the world "helping your fellow man", but you can't spare an ounce of empathy for one fellow man in particular, one who was raised in a terrible enviroment created by people with their priorities in line with yours. How can you claim to help the world at the cost of those around you? BTW, if your so helpful to the world, where's the proof? Where is the Nobel prize? Oh wait, you do it for a reward in Heaven. That's right, so where's the proof of heaven? And don't go pointing at the moon now.
Also, why do you toot your horn so loud? All you culites, don't you have anyone to toot it for you? If you spent a life time helping others, surely someone not affiliated with the group, would step forward on their own and defend you. Where are they?
Since you truly do so much for people and it's all about saving the world, why don't you work say, for the UN? You can help the world without actively defending a group of pedofiles. And since your "back in the game" I assume this means you send a monthly patronage straight to WS? Well, your helping someone anyway.
(reply to this comment)
| from Joe H
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 16:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
The proof is in a book called The Story of Davidito, you stupid idiot! Not to mention the BTH and the other letters that describe the physical and emotional abuse he went through.
(reply to this comment)
| from frmrjoyish
Friday, January 28, 2005 - 16:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who are you to call Ricky a liar? Who are you to claim with such fervor that Ricky's abuse meant nothing! The proof is there in abundance if you open your eyes and look. "All that glitters is not gold" and just because you think he lived such a priviledged life doesn't mean he lived a life free of pain and abuse.
I'm getting really sick of you younger SGA's completely dismissing the abuse we older one's went through just because you didn't personally experience it! Our experiences and us raising our voices against it is partially what saved your generation's little butt's from experiencing what we went through. A little gratitude and at the very least a little empathy is appropriate here! Don't presume to speak about what you were not privy to and what you don't understand!
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