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Getting Support : Speaking Out
Anyone interested in the video of when I went to the HCS with Shukan Bunsun in 1992? | from Mir - Friday, January 10, 2003
accessed 5620 times Since discovering this website about a week ago, (to which I’ve been glued ever since) I remembered the above video which was gathering dust at my mum’s house… I have retrieved it and was fascinated to see it again. I remember being absolutely TERRIFIED. For the first time I understood what people mean when they say their legs turned to jelly. At one point I was nearly physically sick. I remember when Noriko, my interpreter, told me that TF were inviting me to the HCS for a press conference. I was terrified. I almost refused to go, but I thought if I don’t go, they will say that I was lying about everything I was accusing them of and that wouldn’t do. I knew that the HCS had a Victor camp and that all manner of abuse was occurring there. I also knew that many, if not most the kids my age (I was 19 at the time) and a few years younger had been sexually abused. I was also afraid for the younger kids because, as we all know, TF is paedophile heaven.
When I arrived, they pounced on me to hug me and kiss me- yuck! They sent out Solomon (who I knew in Costa Rica and Mexico) and an “aunty” called Joy (who used to look after me and my siblings when we were little in Costa Rica). The first thing they did was to parade some Teens and JETTS in front of me and they started singing and I though “here we go…” I felt sorry for those kids.
TF then proceeded to try and discredit me by saying that I had never been in the Family…(oh no? I wonder who my father’s inheritance went to? I wonder what a mother and 6 kids were doing in India living in communes? I wonder why my eldest sister Shuly died? I wonder who sexually molested, exploited us for money, psychologically and physically abused us? I wonder why we were uneducated at the time?)
God knows what other crap they said about me as it was all in Japanese, but let me assure you, I was born in the Children of God in 1973. I am the 3rd child of a family of what would’ve been 7 had my big sister not died TWO WEEKS BEFORE my little sister was born in 1982. We remained in TF till 1991 when my mum and my siblings all left (I had to escape a few months after, but that is another story…) My dad is still friends with our abusers, he’s got a few screws loose).
When we left I was very angry. I wanted to cause problems for them which would force them to BACK OFF of my generation. Of course I though that if I spoke up and caused trouble that my friends would suffer as a result, but I also thought that if I didn’t say anything, they would go on suffering anyway and what with Victor Camps being the new “in” form of torture, I thought I’d better say something.
I read the story of the raids in France written by a girl who was 6 at the time. Poor, poor kids. Sometimes I feel guilty about what some of you had to suffer because of “wolfs” like me who were “persecuting” the COG. I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to any of you who had a traumatic experience because of me. Please understand why I did it though. Ask yourself, if no-one had spoken up, how many more kids would have suffered every day, year in and year out? Who put you in that situation in the first place? What about the 3rd Generation?”
My big sister Debby had 2 sons (surprise, surprise: in 1988 some leader in India decided to “share” with her when she was 19 as a “goodbye” present as she was being transferred into slavery to another home. The second boy was the result of a relationship in Mexico after we had been “Exodused” out of India, so much for being in the Third World when Jesus came back, eh?) Debby and my sister Victoria who were in the same home both told me that my nephew, who was 7 MONTHS was being SPANKED by the childcare worker whilst my sister was forced on the streets in the boiling hot sun, pregnant, to sell posters and tapes as well as leading teams of kids to sing in restaurants at the weekends. (Remember that guys? Singing in lovely restaurants where the food always smelt sooo good… then going up to people’s table when they were in the middle of lunch to sell them tapes? I wonder how many people bought out of sheer pity. How embarrassed we used to feel…) It made, and still makes, my blood boil. I have a 7 month old son now and if anyone laid a finger on him, I would KILL them.
So you see, all of these things made me stick my neck out. I was young and angry then. I ask myself, 10 years on, educated, a successful career, husband, home, normal friends etc under my belt: “Would you do it again?” And the answer is: “Hell YES!” I might go about it a different way- I am older and wiser now, but the answer is yes, yes, yes.
Well, I have that video if anyone is interested…
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from rainy
Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 06:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
You were so mature. Just think, that year, when questioned by Community Services, I didn't even know what suburb I lived in! You were so calm and behaved so wise beyond your years. You should be very proud. How you overcame all the brainwashing and threats of brimstone and gnashing teeth and looked those adults in the eye and calmly told them the truth, I'll never know.
(reply to this comment)
| from Peter
Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 03:04
(Agree/Disagree?)
This video has been added to the xFamily.org archive
http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Japan_TV_coverage_of_press_conference_at_HCS_and_interviews_with_Miriam_Padilla
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from dan
Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 06:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was there for that debocle. and i just wanted to say sorry. my mom is Joy and has bee nout of the family for about 5 years. I'm sure she feels shity about it but we don't talk about the family with our parents much.it's one of those things that is just easier to forget.
we all said some hurtfull things in that meeting and made light of your pain even though what you were saying was the truth. so sorry for all the shit we said and hope you've been able to get a little satisfaction that you reached a lot of kids that day and many have left the group.
out of curiosity anyone know how many reemain in the cult from that group of teens in that meeting?
(reply to this comment)
|  From Mir
Thursday, January 23, 2003, 14:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
Gosh Dan! soooooo glad you guys are out!!!! Please give my love to your parents! I don't hold any grudge against them whatsoever. My mum will be thrilled to hear this, your mum was there at my sister Vic's birth and your dad, Uriah was the one who told Vic and me that Shuly had died that morning...
Lots of love to you and your family
Mir(reply to this comment) |
| | from Mir
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 09:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sorry guys, we were in India in '86-87 and in Mexico in '88...
(reply to this comment)
| from Anthony
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 16:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey Mir, I was there during that interview, I remember praying against you, as if, LOL. Glad you did that though. I may have met you or your sister prior to that in London, I think Koa Spencer was there too. Anyway, glad to hear you're doing well.
Regards,
Anthony
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From Mir
Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 17:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL!!!! I won't hold it against you Anthony, hahahahaa! Yeah, Koa was around at the time. I remember he came to visit the home I was in one day (with an adult of course even though he was 18) I asked him how he was and he said "oh, changing diapers and waiting for jesus to come back" I said, "hey, why don't we just leave" and he said "what?!, and go against everything our parent tought us?" LOL! I was glad that he left shortly after me. Poor us, what a BORING life we had!!!!
What a shit cult to be born into, eh? (reply to this comment) |
| | from Someone
Monday, January 13, 2003 - 16:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
How ironic...all the hugs and kisses when the probably just came out of a session of praying desperately for the Lord to smite you with some horrible disease.
(reply to this comment)
| from a random ex-victor
Monday, January 13, 2003 - 16:06
 (Agree/Disagree?)
This is a moot point. But as I remember, the victor program had already dissolved several years before all that Shunkan Bunsun stuff went down. So you were a little late; Though your concern is appreciated.
That being said - I certainly can't speak for every other victor, but you might be disappointed (or glad) to find out that being a victor really wasn't as horrific as you seem to have feared. At least in my own experience.
Ya we got paddled, had some mandatory hard labor, and an extra good dosing of 'The Word' everyday. But ironically, some of my most memorable childhood memories were from when I was a victor.
In Japan, I was a victor for a considerable time. Long enough to have lived in all 4 victor camps. This was also long enough to get me put into a special group of kids who were problem cases who received extra harsh treatment (I can't remember the label they put on us now). Interestingly, this group included the kids who came in from a much much harsher program that was originally based in Macaw. Those kids had much more interesting stories to tell than any Victor I am sure. I can't remember the name of the asshole who was running that particular program now, or the name of his wife. I guess I did a good job of wiping that entirely from my memory.
I don't know if Auty (a poster on this site) remembers me, but I was that little kid that went down on the train with her; I to become a victor, she to become a victor Shepard. (She was just a kid herself, yet 5 years my senior - I think). I remember during the trip Auty trying to tell me that being a victor wasn't all that bad. But damn, I was still so freaking terrified for the entire 6+ hour trip down there.
I swear the trip out there was itself far more torturous than anything I experienced when I got there. Well then was the first night there which just really broke me down. Still, I would only rank this as the second most torturous trip I had to take in my life.
Auty was always pretty sweet to me as far as victor shepard's go. Though I can never forgive her for that one time she gave me my 6th demerit for merely opening my eyes during prayer and I had to go get my paddling. (Just kidding Auty)
I guess the bright side of being a victor was the friendships. There seems to be nothing quite as powerfull as being under a lot of fear to forge strong friendships. I suppose this phenomena is not unlike friendships bonded between soldiers during wartime. We were a bunch kids thrown together who really didn't that much in common, and probably wouldn't/couldn't have been friendly under different circumstances. But we were all in the same fucked up situation at the same fucking time and that made every other persons friendship just that much more valuable.
Anyway, to get to the point. Any rumors you've heard about the victor program were probably exaggerated, and there probably wasnt any need to be any more concerned about us than kids in any other family home. Of course I'm not defending sending an 11 year old kid, as I myself was, of to be rehabilitated with concentration camp style techniques. But not every victor shepard was an asshole or a child hating monster, and don't think there were any pedophiles (though please correct me if I am wrong). And I'd go on record saying that I am actually glad I was a victor and had all those experiences. Any bad experiences I had as a victor were worth it for all of the good ones.
I'm sure this perspective is debatable, but it is my own.
(reply to this comment)
| From smashingrrl
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, 20:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
I made good friends in boot camp too but hell, after the victor program, that was easy. Because you see, I wasn't abused in boot camp. I was given the tools to overcome that experience. I wasn't told to "give it to god". The experience was made easy by the overwhelming support from both my platoon and the drill instructors. There was an end. My identity was not stripped from me. Yes, hardships can cause intense bonding. But abuse suffered by those who went through the victor programs also causes incredible damage to one's psyche. Don't dare minimize what others have experienced. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Nancy
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, 12:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Alright, I smell the cult. I see blaming of other child victims, Auty, and the use of ridiculous cult terms like "an extra good dosing of 'The Word' everyday," "just really broke me down" and "victor shepard." Nice try with the use of profanity to look like someone else.
The cult really must try harder in its brainwashing techniques. These are just so apparent. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Silence_Restriction_Kid
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, 12:35
 (Agree/Disagree?)
While I certainly respect your right to voice your opinion, I couldn't disagree with you more. I do think there is a place in society for hard labor camps and I think there called penitentiaries. Used to house murderers, rapists etc., so they can repay there debt to society. While I admit that I have a bit of a stubborn streak I am not a criminal. My only crime was being born into a sadistic perverted religious cult, which seemed to take extreme pleasure in marginalizing and punishing anyone that dared to question anything.
When I was first made a victor I was the only one in the whole school and not only was it phsycological torture but it was also physically abusive. Dude are you that fucked in the head that you can say being made to wear a sign that said you were full of the devil and not to talk to you is normal. I can admit I do feel a certain sense of loyalty to the other poor bastards that later ended up in the same hell hole, but to say that there was anything even remotely pleasant about the whole experience is insane.
Honestly what meds are you on Prozac?, Ambien?... whatever it is I have got to get me some of that shit.
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| | | | | From Bella
Thursday, January 23, 2003, 10:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
It was called the "Attack Team" there were originally only three of us on it, shepherded by Peter Fisher. It was a trail-off of the Victor Program. Don't ask me how in the world I got put into it, (or the other two teens, as we were all considered "well behaved kids") I'm still trying to figure out why we were all sent to Victors in the first place! In any case, we were never paddled for such things as kissing or daydreaming. In fact, we were never paddled at all (we were all about 16 at the time). But we sure scrubbed a lot of toilets (and those disgusting urinals!) and did other tasks around the HCS.
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| | From hmm
Wednesday, January 22, 2003, 19:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Very interesting. The main thing I come away with from this comment is how
sucky "regular" Family life must have been (as it was for me, who escaped before being sent to a victor situation).
A couple of things you say reinforce this impression of mine, such as:
"...ironically, some of my most memorable childhood memories were from when I was a victor..."
(hmm: though perhaps "memorable" may include not-so-positive things)
and
"...there probably wasnt any need to be any more concerned about us than kids in any other family home."(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Mir
Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 05:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Random ex-Victor:
I take offence at the statement "you might be disappointed (or glad) to find out that being a victor really wasn't as horrific as you seem to have feared" Why do you think I would be dissapointed to find out that the Victor programmes weren't that bad? Granted, you put "or glad" in brackets. I would've preferred it it you would have put it the other way around. You are calling into question my motives here and that pisses me off. It took a lot of balls to do what I did, and no, I didn't get paid "tons of money" as TF said, no, I wasn't doing it to "get glory and attention". I was fresh out of the cult and I was terrified. I know you remember the fear that we used to have of them. Now magnify it by ten because you are actually defying and accusing them publicly. I am glad that your experience wasn't that bad. I am VERY glad for you. It wouldn't occur to me to be dissapointed. That is the line TF would have you believe: that the "wolfs" are "dissapointed" that our kids actually didn't suffer that much. Please don't think that of me.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From You give me the creeps (And not in a good way)
Monday, January 13, 2003, 19:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Tell me something Random, are you a masochist? Or maybe you're just Pollyanna. The Victor/DT programs I went to were like a Godamn POW camp, it was absolute hell.
I understand what you mean about friendship though, I made all of my best friends during the worst times in the cult. This does not in ANY way justify what they did to us, even if it did drive us together. If there is one thing I learned in the Family, it's that it's very possible to appreciate a gift, but still hate the gift-giver.
For Gods sake Ex-Victor, these were our childhoods! We were supposed to be growing, learning and exploring life, NOT held hostage to a bunch of idiotic religous fiends determined to force their lies and superstitions down our throats! (And sometimes other things)
I'll tell you what though, since you miss the Victor program so much, I've got an assignment for you, make a sign to hang around your neck and write on it: "I need to face the truth about my childhood"(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Monday, January 13, 2003, 22:37
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Oh boy. I have to say I really do object to this. This young person was stating the fact of their own experience and their own opinion. If someone was to tell you what you should think about your childhood, I am guessing you would tell them to go to hell. You were there, you experienced it and you have every right to your own opinion. I feel strongly that this goes for everyone who "was there".
The point of this site is that we can speak our own truth in our own words, and to me that is absolutely valid, NO MATTER WHAT THAT OPINION IS.
Look, I experienced one of the original "victor progams" at the Jumbo, and to me it was hell. However, that is my experience and my opinion, and while it is valid for me, it may not be for someone else.
If people who express dissenting points of view, based on their own experiences, are dismissed out of hand because it doesn't fall in line with what we hold to be true, then what difference is there between us and any other fundamentalist group? If we deride alternative views because we do not agree with them and discount the experiences of others because we did not share that, then what has leaving the Family really gained us?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Has the Creeps
Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 00:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, you would be right IF this person had bothered to identify themselves. They call themself "A Random ex-victor". Well, guess what, I am also a "Random Ex-victor" so yes I DO have the right to my opinion. By using this handle they are by default speaking for us "Victor survivors" as a group. (IMHO)
Random said: "Any rumors you've heard about the victor program were probably exaggerated"
WTF? I don't appreciate this. It sounds like this person is accusing me of exaggeration. Mir, any rumors you may have heard about the horrors of the Victor programs were probably UNDER-estimated, IF they came from any of the ones I was in. And I know of several others that were much worse than what I had.
Jules wrote: "If someone was to tell you what you should think about your childhood, I am guessing you would tell them to go to hell"
Maybe I misinterpeted their message but that's exacty what I felt they were trying to do. Mir was writing about trying to save us from what she thought was "Torture", and all this person can do is say, "Aw, don't worry, it wasn't that bad, those teens were probably just exaggerating"
Yes, it was that bad, and I wish Mir had been succesful, that the authorities had put an end to the Family back then. I was in a Victor program in Mexico at the very time Mir did that interview at the HCS, can you understand why I feel so strongly about this?
What would you do if I posted here as "A Random Teenage Family girl" and then went on to say "Any rumors you've heard about Adult men and teen girls having sex were probably exaggerated"?
You'd probably be pretty angry, and I know Nan and Merciless would be screaming for my blood.
I know this is kinda arrogant of me, but I think it's fair to say my experience in the Victor programs was probably much more typical than the cakewalk Random describes. His/her flowery, inaccurate account of the horror I lived thru is an insult. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | From Has The Creeps
Wednesday, January 15, 2003, 02:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
No I never met you, but I know your sister Debbie from Cuernavaca. She told me some pretty wild stories about what it had been like. Mexico sounds like it was a really awful place to be young, pretty, female and in the Family.
It's funny that you mentioned that video of your visit to the HCS. I got in big trouble for watching that video, ha! I was working in the video ministry, and I heard about this tape of Miriam's visit to the HCS.
I also heard, from one of the EA's that one of the shepherds had given specific instructions that I wasn't supposed to watch it, even tho some of the others had. This really puzzled me, so I snuck into the studio late one night, and watched the tape.
Well, I quickly figured out why they didn't want me watching it. Ben was a friend of mine, we had been thru a RA program together and I had no idea that he had killed himself. They were getting ready to present it to me the "Right way". So then of course, someone walked in the studio, and reported me to the shepherds. I had to sit thru what seemed like a month of lectures, and missed a few video nights, but nothing too bad. It was certainly worth knowing the truth.
Mir, I want to thank you, if it hadn't been for your speaking out, I might never have known the truth about my friends death. The Family had no intention of telling us about that, until you let the cat out of the bag and they were forced to confront it.
Of course they didn't take responsibilty for driving Ben insane, they had the nerve to hold him up as a warning to us, a threat that we would face the same end is we ever tried to seek freedom. A final insult to Ben's memory.
Also I think it took a lot of guts to walk right into the "lions den" like that and face them down the way you did. Even at the time I first watched it, I felt a certain admiration for what you did, few of the Family Ya's I knew at the time would have been able to walk into a room full of detractors and debate them on their own terms. We really need to come up with a "Vandari Medal of Honor" for things like that. (Also, I'm sorry for praying that you'd die of cancer,lol)
Anyhow, once again thanks, and please don't let anyone tell you to regret your decision to fight the Family, or convince you that it was a "failure", it made a big difference in my life at least. (reply to this comment) |
| | From a random ex-victor
Wednesday, January 15, 2003, 13:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was a victor with Ben too when he moved to Japan.
I'll never forget the one time he and I were supposed to take all these crates of milk (that we got from provisioning but were spoiled) out to the street and pour them into the gutter. This was during a period they were moving the victor camp to a new location and we were only at this new compound for a few weeks.
Anyway the funny thing is that neither Ben or I knew that this gutter we were pouring these gallons and gallons of milk into actually fed into this big koi pond that was just outside the house. We didn't even realize what we had done until later on in the day when Elaine (of ricky/elaine) comes in just freaking out and screaming about us turning the color of the pond all white and milky. And basically wanted our heads on a plate for being so stupid.
I can laugh about it now. But at the time we knew were just steeped into some serious shit. I think Ben must have covered for my ass that time because I didn't really get punished at all for that incident. I'm sure Ben must have gotten something severe though because Elaine wasn't the sort of person who just let people off the hook.
Anyway. I remember Ben as a decent guy. And I he will be remembered.
BTW: What was in the video? I never given the opportunity to watch it.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mir
Wednesday, January 15, 2003, 17:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
The video that I have is the one that the journalists in Japan gave me. It's about half an hour. Some of it is of when I went to the HCS and some of it is interviews I did for some tv stations. I have emailed Jules to see if it is possible to upload it on to the website as a few people have requested it. I'm waiting for her reply.
I'm sure TF have a longer version though...(reply to this comment) |
| | From J
Thursday, January 20, 2005, 22:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
They do........My Dad is the media spokesperson for the Family in Mexico................i remember sneaking the video out from their forbidden(meaning that only the adults were allowed to watch it) box of videos full of interviews/debates of ex-members w/Family members. It was about an hour long (maybe longer......this 7 or 8 yrs ago)...........a lot of what Miriam said was edited tho. I'd like to see the unedited version of it. For what it's worth, that video is what made me start wondering about all the other inaccuracies in the Fam..........i thought if they're so sure of their truth, then why edit the video before showing it to their homes?? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From a random ex-victor
Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 04:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm sorry if offended or insulted you “has the creeps.” It wasn't my intention to belittle your, or any other victors experience. Or to try to paint a flowery picture of what being a victor was like. In fact I tried hard to avoid coming across like that exactly - but perhaps I failed.
That being said, I still stand by what I said. And I said it simply because of the fact that I have personally had victor stories come back to me which had become far more exaggerated that their original incarnation which I had either heard of or actually witnessed first hand.
I assure you that what I went through personally was no cakewalk. And I don't believe that the program you were in could have been too dissimilar from what I was placed in. Of course it was hell at times. When I was a DT (Thank you for helping me remember that acronym btw) I remember being punished severely not only for my own actions, but for things other DT's had done, simply because I was their 'brothers keeper' or something like that. And there were many other ways I was treated in a way that were clearly unfair.
But all those injustices now seem so insignificant in my mind now. And perhaps unlike you, I don't feel like I was actually damaged by those experiences. Though I clearly understand that it will always be a part of who I am for the rest of my life.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 03:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I too may have read Mir's comment wrongfully, but I arrived at the same conclusion that you did!
When one choses to deal with their past by dismissing the abuse or by saying that abuse 'isn't all that bad', perhaps they should take a moment to examine the camaraderie that was established amongst the prisoners of the NAZI regime, or the bonds that P.O.W.'s establish!
While never having been in a Victor program myself, I was on silence restriction, but more traumatic was to witness my own siblings subjected to the cults 'victor' program and abuse. So, yes, I agree with you, it is an insult, and no you are not being arrogant!
Being treated like a slave for the biggest portion of ones childhood, and being crammed into 'bunk beds' and 'trundle beds' (boxes that were built to store extra children in), and most importantly being deprived of a normal childhood and education is hardly a good reflection on our parents ability to nourish us in a safe enviorment!
Contrary to the cogs/family's conculsions about why I left; I have to say the first reason I left was because the family would not allow me to learn how to drive a car, because in their terms "I was female, therefore I wasn't capable of being as 'safe' as the men", that is the biggest bullshit I've heard in years! Yo, I taught myself how to drive a stick shift at 17! The second reason I left was that I wanted a real education and they would not allow me to pursue that dream because they wanted to keep me as a slave, (in charge of the kitchen) and then convert me into a baby factory, so that I would have to rely on them!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Auty
Monday, January 13, 2003, 19:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh gosh, I'm sorry if I gave you that demerit . . .which I'm not sure how I could of done that because I was a victor myself for nearly 2 years. Unless you're speaking of the time when I was asked to be a "model" teen victor in the Jett victor program for a 2 week period in matsumoto? I remember going to matsumoto to "help out" with the Jett victor program about a year into my teen victor program. But I was never a victor shepherd (thank god!) In fact, I remember I was sent back to the HCS from Matsumoto Jett program because I had a huge problem with Martin wanting to spank one of the Jetts there for doing something silly. I started yelling at him & was demoted from a "model teen victor" back to the HCS to serve my next year out cleaning the gutters.
Anyway, I hope that you are well (whoever you are) and that life is now treating you kinder. Peace & best regards.(reply to this comment) |
| | from Mir
Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
I am very aware that the punishments I received as a child were FAR too severe. I do not want to discipline my kids in that way. I still remember the absolute terror I used to feel when I was about to get a spanking, especially if it was going to be from someone who was not my parent.
My mum was always very fair and when I would get a spanking from her I knew that I deserved it, however, I would never use a weapon such as a belt, the handle of a plastic flyswatter or a "chilillo" (a very thin bamboo branch that was flexible like a whip) Oooouch!!! that bloody hurt like hell
I do believe that smacking on the legs or hand(not spanking or beating with bare bottoms with a weapon)as a last resort is acceptable. I don't want my kid to be a spoiled brat either.
I remember my brothers and sisters and I hiding the flyswatters around the house and the grown-ups looking for them frantically hahahahaa! They never cottoned on that it was us hiding them, I guess they thought we wouldn't dare.
I'm really sorry your family is still in the COG...
(reply to this comment)
| from CherishL (A.K.A. Cherish Ety)
Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
And I thoroughly agree with your view points. As for the third generation? I've witnessed many that have left with kids who still use corporal punishment on them, when I blatantly critize them they say "if you had kids you'd understand", which is a total crock of shit! While I may not have my own children (and never will as I am going to be a professor), I taught high school and I have loads of cousins, nieces and nephews who've never been hit into submission. I guarantee you that taking to and teaching kids to make educated choices and to have self-esteem is far more effective.
As for your persecution issues, I think that any kid who was traumatized by it was only due to the cogs brainwashing. And yes, third generation cog? my younger sister is a brainwashed cro in europe and has two kids with this guy who cheats on her, and she on him, and much to my utter dismay her get spanked.
(reply to this comment)
| From Jules
Monday, January 13, 2003, 11:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Cherish, what do you mean when you say "any kid who was traumatized by it was only due to the cogs brainwashing"?
The teenager who wrote her story here about being taken into custody in France when she was 6 is my sister. From what my other siblings say, what she wrote was a fairly accurate account of what happened to them. Those events have had a very significant impact on her. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From exotik tom-boy
Monday, January 13, 2003, 18:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules,
In no way do I mean to undermine the trauma that the victims of the France fiasco had to go through. When I said 'truamatized by the cog's brainwashing' I meant that had our parents not hidden us from the world, and subjected us to their whacked out lifestyle to begin with, this shit would have never happened in the first place!
I can clearly identify with your sister's trauma. When I was four years old in 1978 our home was raided by mexican police and they held the adults for 30 days in prison, and the kids for 48 hours in prison. When the judge finally let us go (there was ff pay offs), we had to sneak out of the country at night so that other law officers would not find out he had set everyone free.
I'm not trying to say this whole picture is pretty, it's most certainly not! But I believe that the last people who should be vilified are the indivuals who've been brave enough to take a stance against the cog, and the first people who need to take the blame for the unfortunate trauma these kids suffered are their parents, who placed them in that predicament to begin with.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Monday, January 13, 2003, 22:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for your clarification. I absolutely agree with you on this point. What happened to children in the raids was traumatic, but it was absolutely the fault of the people in the Family who published the materials that caused the local authorities to take such an extreme position, and it was absolutely the fault of the parents who kept their children in the Family after these things had been published.
The older children from my family taken in the raids in France have told me that my parents made some definite changes in their life after these raids. My brother has told me that the raid brought home to my parents that they could not do anything to their children anymore, there were consequences, and there was a check and balance and their parenting could be evaluated at any time, even if they were Family members. For my family, the raid was the turning point for them, and from that point on, my parents took responsibility (for the most part) for their children, took them out of the Family homes, and soon after moved to Canada, stood up against the local sadists who wanted to teach my siblings a thing or two in submission, and not too long after that took their children to live near their grandparents and put them in school.
I think the raids, while the methods were surely wrong, did bring home to my parents that there was a real cost involved in the nonsense that the Family taught. They were forced to evaluate whether all these things that they had shut their eyes to were worth losing their kids over and being "persecuted" for. While they are sketchy on the details with me when I ask them about it, I think they saw then and there that the Family, while willing to use them as poster children, would not back them any further than that. They were left to take the fall for all the things they had always questioned, and in light of that, it was so not worth it.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From exotik tom-boy
Tuesday, January 14, 2003, 04:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules,
When I write on this site I tend to speak my blunt mind. Having said that I am fully aware of the BS my parents have caused me, and being that they are still actively involvled (as leaders), I've witnessed my own friends suffer consequences at their and other leader's hands, therefore I feel obligated to point out their abuse; not for my sake but for the sake of my friends whom I've watched struggle to make a life for themselves.
Ever since I ran away at 17, I've taken solace in music and in the friends I've made who have nothing to do with the cog. To put it in Drew Barrymore's words "the nice thing about having estranged parents is that you get to choose your own family based on the friends you make"!(reply to this comment) |
| | From anonymous person
Monday, January 13, 2003, 23:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, this is the first time I have seen so well expressed something I feel about "persecutions." Your last paragraph just about sums it up for me.
I was about 5 in the first raid I ever experienced. I was scared when my father was being threatened. My mother took us and we ran to a mountain town while my father was kept in jail. Then when I was a teenager, there were raids in the country where I was. In the time following these raids in the late eighties, the people in the "home" where I was that were OK at teaching kids started to give the young children the most serious schooling I have ever witnessed in the Family, because the children had to take some tests because of the "persecution."
In a recent book about The Family, a Family woman the academic interviews complains that she had to get rid of some pictures of her children because of the tightening against child abuse, and she is said to break down in tears. I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for a woman who when faced with that dilemma chooses to destroy the pictures of her kids and stay in the abusive group that is so "paranoid" -- perhaps rightly seeing how sick their actual practices are. I feel sorry for the kids whose mom would make that choice, like mine did, and all for a Mama Maria and King Peter she probably never met and had no way of knowing if they were all they were cracked up to be.(reply to this comment) |
| | from CherishL (A.K.A. Cherish Ety)
Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
I would be very interested in this video! I ran away from Peru for the second time at the age of 17 and am now 28, I have a college degree (BFA in photography) and am going for my Master of Fine Arts next year. In the meantime I'm writing a book and would love to view this video as part if research. Shoot me an e-mail if you want and I'll work out how to get it sent to me. THANKS!!!!!!!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From Victoria
Wednesday, January 15, 2003, 17:19
(Agree/Disagree?)
I can see that my sister Mir has started a real debate going about the abuse in the COG. I know it's hard guys, but we have to accept that what happened to us was WRONG. It doesn't matter how much we try to "dress it up" in order to make some sense of our childhood - we were abused and our innocence was ripped away from us.
I have no children, but I know that children have a right to their innocence and their childhood. I have had a very hard time forgiving my parents for the shit they put me through but I have to say the positive thing I have gained from all this is that I am a better person. Not because of the COG abuse I am a better person, but because I made myself to be that way through much effort, tears and humiliation trying to be a normal person, I empathise with all of you guys who have suffered and I feel a real rapport with you all - whatever your opinions might be I think one thing we can agree on, now that those bafoons are no longer telling us what to do with our lives, its upto us! (reply to this comment) |
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