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Getting Real : This Site Sucks
To the disillusioned | from carol234567 - Saturday, May 06, 2006
accessed 1893 times You guys seem to have pictured Ricky/Davidito as a hero of some sort. In my eyes, he is nothing of the sort, just a maniac who hates his mom like shit for some reasons, that we’re not even sure are true. I don’t know much about Zerby, and I haven’t ever lived in her home or WS, so I don’t know for sure what’s true or not. But as much as you hate people, don’t tell me that you guys would go as far as to kill them. Alright, Ricky committed suicide, and that prevented him from going behind bars, or locked up in some mental institution. Maybe he has had some rough times, we have all had some, but I don’t know much about Angela, did she ever abuse him?
Are you against God? Because being against TF puts you in a position against Him.
What about all the other religious groups who have far more outrageous beliefs than us? You probably think that we have strange rituals and all, but look at all those weird Asian religions. They pierce themselves all over and have pleasure in torturing themselves. I’m not saying that you should compare us to all that, but do you think what they’re doing is right?
You mustn’t have known the Family so well and just have a stereotyped conception about it to think that it has no/or hardly any, benefits.
You guys are all answering to Devilcatcher with the same things about that subject, and I found your comments very tiresome to read.
You guys really don’t get what devilcatcher is trying to say, and all you do is try to answer back to everything he says by saying just the opposite, but you haven’t accomplished anything.
The only person that was demented and disillusioned was Ricky. Well, he’s in Heaven now, and has been forgiven, you’ve probably read what Zerby wrote about it. But in his life on earth, he didn’t accomplish anything, except when he was in TF. But as soon as he left, you guys, a bunch of hotheaded, apostates (if the shoe fits, wear it), influenced him, and brought in him a hatred for his own mother.
Tell me honestly, would any of you go that far to even want to kill your mother?—I most certainly wouldn’t.
I don’t mean to say this to get you all riled up against the Family, but you guys aren’t doing anything except making us stronger in our beliefs.
I had a sister that left the Family, and a few months later, committed suicide. I do not wonder why.
Otherwise I’m content here in TF and I know that it is the only place where I could ever belong. Of course, like Devilcatcher said, the Family isn’t for everyone, and I agree, it’s not like any of you guys could ever be dedicated enough. The Family isn’t just for some irresolute people who don’t know what else to do than to just stay there and not do anything, it’s a group of active Christians who want to serve God. And what’s wrong with that? Tell me I would like to know. Please feel free to write me. |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from ice daemon
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 17:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
seriously i don't know who the fuck you are carol.....but you're the one who's dissillusioned! you know i didn't even know that apostates was a word till i heard it in the gns....fucking respect the ex-members for what they've been through, and SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!
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| from GenBethlehem
Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 01:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oh God. Nice, but nasty. You ex-members are appalling the way you bash anyone FIRST on account of their command of what is most probably your first language.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe devilcatcher (you might wanna change your name; neither I, nor any real family member should consider exmembers devils...) is a young person who just joined? Being that he can't speak English and is in Peru, this is quite likely.
Anyway, I just wanted to say to DC and Carol (if you're actually 2 ppl...it's true, IP Addy's don't lie...), GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU! Nice to have someone else standing up for their convictions DESPITE the fact that their English isn't close to some of you apostates. I really respect that you two!
- GB
PS--(whispered) you might wanna buff up your shakespeare, tho...these guys really hash on the important representation of the most bastard language in the world!
PPS--GBY U 2! TFI rocks and so do you!
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| | | |  From Haunted
Thursday, July 06, 2006, 13:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Just as you tell us not to "label" you because of others in your group, I'd urge you not to label us.
I have some very good friends who consider themselves still Christian and therefore your label of apostate is incorrect!
The difference between apostasy and heresy is that the latter refers to rejection or corruption of certain doctrines, not to the complete abandonment of one's religion.
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| | | | | from exister99
Monday, May 08, 2006 - 11:08
 (Agree/Disagree?)
To answer the only sensible question in your article: yes, I am against God. I am against your god and everyone else's gods. I am against the pathetic tendency of humans to abdicate responsibility for their own destiny and accountability for their actions by inventing gods in whose name to justify their abuses and outrages against other human beings.
Let us be clear, The Family has as its primary objective a global, fascist, theocratic regime. Who are the real enemies of freedom? You are, and I will fight you tooth and nail until my last dying breath. I will fight you through legitimate, conventional means now, and if ever you and your Fundamentalist ilk acquire any real temporal powers I will fight you by all possible means then. To those of you who think that there is no threat of theocratic totalitarianism I urge you to merely have a look at Europe back when the pope had an army.
Oh, and have the decency to leave the dead out of this. Arguing about the relative merits of the last 24 hours of Ricky's life is pointless and pretty crass. This battle is ours now, your's and mine, let the dead rest in peace.
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| from EyesWideShut
Monday, May 08, 2006 - 07:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
So many misinformed generalizations and so much meaningless mispunctuated drivel.
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| | | | from King of Apostates
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 17:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
Devilcatcher/Carol, Pray against the spirit of deceit which led you to pretend to be two separate people. Since you like “catching devils” so much here are some devils for you to catch. Make sure you call on the keys to defeat them:
Apotheon, Arakan, Ashraf, Baal, Bacchus, Cyclor, Disruptor, Drought, Hord, Irrazzmon, Lazers, Lethargy, Mach (Macho, Machismo), Medusa, Negaton, Negin, Nivea of the sea, Obstacon, Obtherion, Oplexicon, Orexis, Pan, Set, Seduction and Obsession, Sphinx, Vain…..
Yes, I lifted the list from xfamily.com.
http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Category:Family_Mythology
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| From Gypsy
Wednesday, May 10, 2006, 15:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
...and the list goes on... Spiderman, Batman, Blade, Flash, X-men, Hulk, Superman, Pokemon, Witchblade, The little mermaid, Sleeping beauty, etc, etc, fucking etc.
I cant believe the list DOUBLED since last i left! It seems to me they have nothing better to do than waste their time making up fictional characters, and whats worse theres actually pple who believe they exist! Pitiful if u ask me!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | from MegaGroan
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 10:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Carol, if you're 28 then you must be in serious denial. Unless you were TS or out of the Family in the early 90's then you have to remember all the pubs purges.
Do you remember "Deceivers yet True"? I'm not asking rhetorically, it's possible you just don't know any of this stuff. I know many of the younger exers (<20 years old) have a hard time believing some of the abuse that happened.
I suggest you read this before you go any further:
http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Story_of_Davidito
You may also want to read the other Family Gn's and letters on the site. This is the stuff we grew up having shoved down our throats.
Disillusioned? You've got to be kidding!
By the way, the ONLY reason you didn't experience stuff like the Davidito book is BECAUSE exmembers, or "Apostates" as you like to call them, spoke out against the Family, thus forcing them to clean up their act to avoid legal trouble.
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| | | | from devilcatcher
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 09:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
thanks. it's not easy to argue against 300 ex-members.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from Who's the disillusioned?
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 04:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Carol
Have you tried looking at things from Ricky's perspective? What Ricky did was clearly a crime of vengeance. It's perfectly understandable that many people would consider themselves avenged in part by his actions. If you witnessed the systematic abuse of a sibling, your kid, or someone you loved (and I mean emotionally and protectively, not sexually), wouldn't you feel compelled to avenge them? It's a natural human response. His parents wrecked the lives of thousands of people including his own and his sister's and he saw them get away with it time after time. If we lived in a different day and age, what he did would be heroic. The tragedy in the situation is that he died without completing his goal. He wasn't able to get the vengeance he so justly deserved.
The route Ricky chose to take may not have been the best from a moral perspective, yet there is still little hope of bringing justice through the more widely respected legal system. It would no doubt be better had he been able to do so, but as Maria and Peter keep themselves hidden, so as to avoid being called legally to account for their actions, a legal remedy was not coming.
"A Time to Kill" was, if I remember correctly, a recommended family film. I presume therefore that you have seen it. I also presume that you, on watching the film, understood the sympathy felt for the father, even if you yourself did not sympathise or consider his actions heroic. Perhaps he should have let the men who killed his daughter get away with murder, but who are is anyone who isn't able to see and understand things as he did to judge. Unless you have been faced with the same level of desperation and anger, you cannot blame him for what he did. I would make the same analogy with Ricky's killing. I believe it was justified.
For the record, I do not hate the family or anyone in it, but having witnessed many abuses over the years, I sympathise with people who do want to get vengeance and I sympathise with people who take vengeance. The fact that he killed someone other than Peter and Maria gives me more sympathy for Ricky. If he would have killed Maria and Peter what he would have done would have been truly great. He would have no doubt felt a sense that it was all over and had a feeling of relief. A lot of people who suffered as a result of Maria and Peter's death would have no doubt shared in that sense of relief. That is why people may give the impression that they believe what he did was heroic. It is not that what he did that was great, it is that what he was attempting to do was wholly understandable and we sympathised with his ideal, yet he failed and killed himself instead.
It is a tragedy, I agree with that, but it is one in which Ricky was a victim. His life was a tragedy and his death was a tragedy.
Mrs Smith on the other hand gets little sympathy. The population at large have little sympathy for the Hindleys, Wests, or Smiths of this world. She did not less than stand by and watch his abuse. She encouraged it, helped hide the fact it was happening, and was for all legal purposes an accomplice. Being equally liable for his suffering. The good deeds done to hide the evil become evil when the motive is considered. She too may have been mentally disturbed or deranged, but as she was perpetuating abuse onto a person who had done no wrong to her, there is little sympathy left for her and others like her.
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| From Randi
Monday, May 08, 2006, 09:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Have you ever met Ricky? He was a nice guy, a good hearted person, but yes a bit messed up, wouldn't anyone be? I think the percentage of young people (ex members) who have committed suicide is way too high to be ignored. Obviously young people have been traumatised and are dealing with a lot of heart ache, not everyone is able to cope esp. when their parents are still in the group that caused them all the pain and set backs. I think Ricky was dealing with a lot of guilt, wishing he would have done something to change things for the better while he was in a position where perhaps he thought he could. Could he have though, I don't know. About the hate issue. If your in a situation where that is all you know, all you ever have known, what's to hate? You have to first experience another life to know how bad or perhaps good something is. Children who grow up with abusive and alcaholic parents, don't know any other life, they learn to adjust to insanity and pain from the very beginning. In fact a lot of them believe that that is what love is, that that is how life and families are. Not that Ricky didn't know that there was another life to be had, but untill he experienced first hand what another life was like, was when he began to hate the life he had had. Typical really. The family trys to blame his feelings on some of us, really, that's a shame. The Zerby's have to stop passing the buck at some point in their adult lives, and take a deep look within. Karen is obviously not a regular mother, any other normal and healthy mother, would probably blame herself, even just a little. Usually there is a pretty substantial reason for a child to hate their own mother, it wasn't for no reason. You have to remember he was there when those guys were torturing Mene, he saw it. He was the little boy we all idolized, the one being publicly sexually abused. He was taught to believe that he was some kind of prince, one of the "last witnesses," only to discover that he was coming out of an extremely strange and dangerous cult, nothing more. That is a lot to deal with. He felt the weight of an enormous burden, one that his mother should feel but doesn't. I think Ricky had a hard time differentiating between his own and all of our pain. He felt responsible somehow, he wasn't, but that was how he felt, perhaps a hang up from the whole "prince" "final witness" crap that his parents fed him. The whole thing was just too much, it drove him crazy... Do I think it was crazy and wrong to kill someone? Absolutely! ( This is to Carol by the way) What he should have done was ask for help. I've had to do that myself, simply because I can't deal with it on my own. I found a great therapist who shows a great amount of respect and admiration for what I've come through and for what I've accomplished for myself, while at the same doesn't pity me too much either, but rather encourages me to look ahead. Ricky needed help. Infact all of us who have left the club, should seek perfessional help. Some of us may be feeling just fine, and that's great, but the things we've experienced may effect us later, for example when we have our own children, or in our relationships etc. If anything, that's one thing we can take from Ricky's story: Don't be ashamed to ask for help, it's nothing to be ashamed of. At least it can't hurt. But whatever you do, once you start therapy, you have to finish the process, other wise it can be dangerous. It's like going for an opperation to remove malignant cancer tumors and then leaving before the opperation is through. Metaphorically speaking, the cancer has to be removed and more importantly the wound must be cealed, other wise you'll feel worse. Just a tip.
This thing you said Carol " If you're against the family, you're against God" or something to that effect, you couldn't be more wrong, and you couldn't be more presumptuous. If the family is what God is about, I want nothing to do with Him. I think that's the sad thing about all this, most of us who have left the family want nothing more to do with God, but esp Jesus. I guess emotional pain perhaps causes some of us to think irrationally and we tend to equate christianity or God with the family, but we really shouldn't. For a lot of us, Jesus resembles pain and deprivation, brutal beatings that we should be thankful for, separation from family and friends, isolation, desolation of the little bit of pride and self confidence we had left, watching our mothers prostitute themselves etc...all this for Jesus. Unfortunately, I too lost my faith in Christ, not God though. As silly as it may sound, that faith was precious to me. Ricky said the same thing to me. I remember being bent over a bed with five people watching as a teenager and getting a nasty hiding with a two by four, for something ridiculous. The pain from my menstration was killing me, but I had to take it, there was no one to save me....but the only thing I remember doing was asking Jesus to help me be brave, to be with me. As silly as it sounds, it gave me peace, and somehow I got through it. That's gone now, Jesus makes no sense to me anymore, because He reminds me of pain and worst of all of control. I've exchanged religion for education, and you know what they say "knowledge is freedom" and it really is! The whole thing is just so heart breaking and sad, but the great thing is that myself and others I know are rising above, and changing our lives one day at a time. It's amazing.
Anyway Carol, You have to follow your heart, I'm sorry for the loss of your sister. That must have been very difficult. Difficult for you and her. By the way, are you a family member, or are you just trying to make fun of the family mind set? I mean you sound like a member, I just thought that most of you guys try to make your mind sets a little more appealing, more watered down, less strange and cultish...I don't know...Are you? Are you just pretending?
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| | | | | from cassy
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 03:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Did your mother and father sexually and mentally abuse you, Carol? If not, then you have no right to condemn Ricky for hating his mother or begin to understand why. He's not alone, if you worked with insest or child abuse victims you'll realise that for a child to go so far as to want to kill their own mother, something HORRIBLY must have gone wrong, and not on the part of the child. Please stop reading Zerby's brainwashing "word" and get educated in the real world. (By the way, I did live in Zerby's house, and I know Ricky personally, so I know what I'm saying.)
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| from Lance
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 02:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
This woman is just sad. And I feel sorry for her.
It is sad how people can be exposed to horrible situations and still try to bury themselves in denial and ritual.
I am sorry for you Carol! In more ways than I can explain.
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| from Wolf
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 02:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
Since you seem to want a conversation, allow me to respectfully answer the issues you raised in point form and ask you a few questions of my own.
• “That hates his mom for some reasons that we’re not even sure are true” – do you mean to say that you’re not sure the Davidito book was authentic? Why would they publish that stuff if it didn’t actually happen? Do you have children? If so, would you instruct their teachers to have sexual relations with them and then photograph and publish the details? Would you have sex with your 12 year old son? While your husband was having sex with a prepubescent girl in the same bed at the same time?
• This may come as a surprise to you, but on the outside the Family’s beliefs actually seem stranger than any of the Asian religions you mentioned. The average person can understand self-torture more easily than masturbating to Jesus, men having female sex organs “in the spirit”, and the belief that one possesses imaginary keys that turn into imaginary weapons.
• A person living in the Soviet Union in 1975 could legitimately say that he / she had some benefits over a person living in the United States. For example: 17 sq. meters guaranteed living space and guaranteed basic sustenance. Individuals in the Soviet Union who had never experienced anything else may have even thought they were better off than their counterparts in the US. However, every single person who defected to the US realized they were better off in their new home. It is the same for those of us who have self the Family.
Now I have a couple of questions for you:
• Did you read the letters Ricky wrote to Maria and Peter before he left the group? If so, how can you pretend that Ricky only came to hate his mother after leaving? If you have not read those letters, why do you just accept what your leaders have told you without doing any research? I think if you take the time to do some research you will see that there is clear evidence to back up the notion that Ricky was abused by his mother and step father and that he realized how wrong they were before leaving the group. For a overview of the actual evidence vs. the Family’s hot air, I suggest you read this article: http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=1&Cat=9&ID=2662
• As a member of the Family International, you are required to believe that David Berg was God’s prophet. I quote:
“Believe that David was God’s Endtime Prophet and that Maria is God’s chosen and anointed successor”-- “The Love Charter”, 2nd version (1998), section B, “Responsibilities of Individual Members”
My question is this: do you believe in and adhere to every one of the following things that Berg wrote?
Maria: "Well, what about incest? That's a big big question in The Family right now."
Berg: "We'll just have to tell the kids that it's not prohibited by God but you'd better watch out because it’s dangerous".
Maria: "At least not let'em find out if you do it". – David Berg, “the Devil Hates Sex”
"This beautiful dark haired little girl of about 10 or 11 came and crawled in bed with me! She lay half on top of me although on her back and she laid her hand behind right down on top of my genitals and across my right leg.... I thought to myself, "Well, how tempting can you get!" – David Berg, “the Little Girl Dream”
"Of course as there are no longer any such things as man's legalistic laws against incest in this loving kingdom of God, everyone loves everyone and is completely free in his/her encompassing love. So I make wonderful sweet precious love to my now beautiful teenage Techi."—David Berg, “Heaven’s Children”
“Since our children are going to be paperboys, they don’t need advanced math.” – David Berg, “The Education Revolution”
“Take the children litnessing, take the children provisioning in every single home. Then the kids will be getting the best school possible every day".—David Berg, “The Advantages of Having Children”
Speaking to 14 year old Mene Berg: “You think you're going to make it up there (in the system) somehow? The only way you could make it is to be a whore, that's all! You wouldn't even be an FFer, you wouldn't even be doing it for God, you'd just be doing it for a living. You'd probably end up on drugs - a drug demon possessed, alcoholic, diseased whore and soon dead!” – David Berg, “the Last State”
Speaking of a female member of TF who was stabbed to death: “They obviously weren't whole-hearted or totally sold out for the Lord, or he could have at least been tithing …
Look what she did to the poor murderer! She not only lost her life, but he's going to probably lose his because she resisted! . . . She may have reaped what she sowed and got what she deserved. I almost feel sorry for the poor murderer. His life is ruined now.” – David Berg, “Irfers Beware”
“May God damn the God-damned Jews! My God, I think if I could get over there and had a gun I think I'd shoot 'em myself! My God damn them in Jesus' name! In Jesus' name, strike! Strike! Strike! God damn the Jews! Those Anti-Christ, Christ-hating Jews, God damn them! O God, if I had a gun I'd shoot them myself!" – David Berg, “A Prayer for the Poor!”
• As a member of the Family International, you are required to consider Maria (Karen) Zerby your spiritual leader and give her 10% of your income. Do you agree with and adhere to all of the following statements made by her?
“I'm sorry that we couldn't come out a little more forthrightly in the Child Abuse Statement, bringing out the point that all sex between adults & minors is not bad, sinful, harmful or abusive. However, the problem was that we didn't know how much we could say without putting the Family at legal risk. We wouldn't have been afraid to admit more if we had known we could do it legally … The way we present this is very delicate, because on the one hand, we can get in big trouble with the System, & on the other hand, if we handle it the wrong way, there is the danger that the Family may feel that we are saying that the Letters were wrong & that what Dad had to say in those Letters was not right & was a mistake. We definitely don't believe that & we can't afford to give that impression, so we certainly have to avoid that at all costs.”— Karen Zerby, “Maria’s Summit ’93 Jewels, part 2”
About the suicide of Ben Farnsworth, a former member: “we think this is going to have a tremendous powerful effect on our Teens worldwide. So even if Ben's life wasn't a very good example, maybe even his death wasn't either, the result of that is going to be tremendous. I'm sure that's probably one of the big reasons why the Lord allowed it--to help all of our other Teens worldwide be warned & be shaken & be in fear of ever going to the System & getting involved with its evil.” – Karen Zerby
“He [The Lord] makes it clear that using such words as "fuck," "cunt" or "dong" is not wise or loving with outsiders. . .[To the young teen boys] But in your intimate relationship with Jesus, in which you make love with Him in Spirit, you are not male, you are a female in the Spirit.”— Karen Zerby, “Loving Jesus—Part 3 for Junior Teens”
I would be very interested in reading your answers to these questions.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Thursday, May 11, 2006, 21:20
(Agree/Disagree?)
I remember being a teen and hearing some of the adults recount how they had left when "IRFers Beware" was published as they found it so disturbing. They couldn't have been that disturbed because later they rejoined. I never read the letter or understood the details. A year or so ago I stumbled upon an article at exfamily.org that contains the letter and other information and commentary.
In a situation where anyone with half a heart would feel tremendous pity for the husband of the woman who was murdered they used it to try to increase fear and control. It's a heartbreaking story and a truly sickening response. Of all the sick, perverted stuff Berg wrote, IMHO this is up there with some of the cruelest.
http://www.exfamily.org/pubs/ml/ml880.html(reply to this comment) |
| | From Randi
Tuesday, May 09, 2006, 23:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
All I can say is OMG!! The sick thing is, I remember reading that stuff when I was a young teen and not hardly flinching....it was normal. The only way we couldv'e known how wrong it was, was by getting an education, that's why they deprived us of it because we would have learned to rationalize and use our God given reason. That's the thing about these cults, they confiscate your reason, and put a little chip in your brain called "blind faith," and the less you use your reason, the more blind you become. What surprises me is that even though those family folks know the above quotations are true, they won't budge, they won't even look into it...why, because they don't want to have to do a damn thing about it...they don't want to change their lives or make the effort.....FEAR!!! That's what it boils down to FEAR!!! Their immoral and dangerously simplistic excuse is: "well I'm here for the Lord, not the king and queen, so even though they've done and said those things, this is where the Lord wants me." It breaks my already broken heart.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from lisa
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 00:35
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Your sister commited suicide, and you don't wonder why? Someone I only just knew, commited suicide and every time I think of him I wonder why. I can't imagine what it would be like if it was my sister. You knew when you wrote this articule that all it would accomplish would be to inspire angry comebacks, and yet you still spent the time to read 'tiresome' comments and post this articule, Why? You know that the people on this site are by in large against the family, and yet you who are so happy in the family are here why? I think most of what the family writes is compleatly nuts but I respect your right to beleave in it,and I don't waste my time writting articules in your GN's telling you how duped I think you all are. So why are you here?
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| from placebo
Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 00:29
(Agree/Disagree?)
Are you chocking this down on your witnessing quota for the week sweetheart?Once again you have totally missed the point of this site.
No one here as a problem with you being an "active Christian".Your life is yours to live, roughhue it as you please.However, if you don't find child abuse and paedophilia demented I don't see any point in discussing anything with you.
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