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Getting Real : This Site Sucks
Time for Reality Check! | from Ben321 - Monday, March 15, 2004
accessed 2578 times A bit of realism never hurts anyone, and the attitude of "It is just not fair! Why was I born in the Family?! Why wasn’t I born to parents well embedded in the 'real world?" indicates that one is living in a dream world and is severely lacking in connection with, yes, the real world.
Reality check time!
"Always look on the bright side of life!" That was the thought in the back of my mind when I wrote the article "System Survival". Anything wrong with that?! I sincerely hope not! And what I wrote is based on personal experience. The reality you may have met could of course be different, but that doesn't make what I said 'wishful thinking'. And being condescending and patronizing, I guess I wanted to provoke a bit, but I am sorry if I overall came across that way. Still, I do have many years of accumulated experience in dealing with the 'real world' and if anyone cares to listen it is there in a short format.
First a few short answers to some comments:
Hello, Jerseygirl! You sound like you're trying to look at the bright side of things too! That was exactly my point, find something you will be happy with and do it!
Ok, guys! Let's be real, Joe H, whenever in the history of TF were we taught 'self-hate'? That is an outright lie! On the contrary, and you know it, we were taught that we the cream of the crop and very important and to love others as ourselves etc etc ....
The schoolteacher job option cannot be that off the mark as it was based on personal experience. If it worked for me, it could possibly work for you as well, couldn't it? Neither was it meant as pointing someone to a job which would give a huge pay-off, it was simply an example of a possible job opportunity to tide you over until you can find something you would be happier with or getting the education you want. Understood? And finally, on that subject, I wasn't sentencing somebody to a lifetime of slavery among what you call 'systemite brats' in the school system! How long you stick to one job that comes along is completely up to you. In the "real world" as well as in TF where we come from people change jobs all the time.
And I am sorry, I don't meet all these people who are "appalled and horrified" by the TF, most people I have come in touch with are full of admiration for that kind of commitment and sacrifice. Of course these are 'ignorant' people who have not been immersed in anti-cult propaganda ....
Regarding the churches, where I come from the pastors have salaries and there are other jobs like deacons and the like available ..... but, by all means, leave the churches out if you like, I can understand that as I have had my fill. And these are rather low paid jobs, which not many are interested in anyway. And thanks for your final advice; maybe I should go back to serving God! A brilliant thought! I just might ....
And, Hi, 'exister', sorry to disappoint you, I don't smoke dope and I collect no welfare check..... In fact my business is quite successful, thank you!
Albatross, I never disputed that a higher education in many cases will land you more money and further I cannot see anywhere in my post where I claim it is easier to get a job if you don't have a system education. That is just ridiculous! I never said it and I don't believe it either! And for your information, I had it in for the churches long before I met TF. I did not need TF to show me where it wasn't!
Now, who's been smoking here, if my ramblings could be taken as an 'ode to Family education'; - a lot of it was said tongue in cheek and I am fully aware of that a lot of people left TF with little formal academic education. What I wrote was meant to encourage them and find openings within the realm of the possible and to start with what you've got however little it seems to be. And one reason I did not tout higher education more than I did, was that it is not an option that is available to all or even desired by everyone. But if you want it and have a chance at it, by all means, go for it! Personally, learning a trade or a real profession where you're actually producing something useful or worthwhile is more my cup of tea. I have tried university, medicine to be more specific, it just did not appeal to me; I could not stand the body slicing sessions for one thing.
Family education has improved since the early days and I believe that it is today on par with or above the education you would receive in a public school in most parts of the world. If you are comparing present day Family education with what the US schools manage to teach their students, it will come out very favorably. Home-schooled children rate well above their public school counterparts and usually do quite well later in collage or wherever they choose to go. I believe TF today gives children an education that is fully up to scratch.
Regarding qualifications for let's say a teaching job, I was referring to that you would be able to actually do the job, and even if you are able to "step right into almost any teaching position", the other side of the coin is they may not let you do just that before you have passed their test or gotten hold of their kind of diploma. That is correct in many cases.
But, please, come on! Do you think they would deny you changing diapers if you really wanted to? Even without a diploma! He he! (I am not allowed to say Ha!)
I feel Nick has hit one nail on the head where he says: "I have no idea if you have worked in corporate America for long, but a lot of companies will hire someone they feel would be a greater asset to their team based on someone’s dependability and work ethic. It doesn’t take more than a few weeks to train someone to do a job that thousands of others have done in the past, but finding someone that will be a loyal member of your team can be difficult." This is what I meant with having qualities that are underdeveloped in 'the real world' (Puh, I made it! It's not the 'system' any more, I must have been more brainwashed than I thought!) God help me! (Does that one escape censure?)
On the 'bullshitting' yourself into a position issue: I wouldn't recommend lying in any way shape or form, what we are talking about is simply putting your best foot forward.
Regarding a career in politics, that may not be a pipe dream or as farfetched as you would have it: I was attending a political meeting last year and they almost begged me to work with them more actively. They were really looking for people who were willing to give of their time and strength to political work in the local govt. Several of the people attending the meeting had been elected to the local govt and of course you get a salary once you're in'. What I am saying may sound a bit new to you, and you can believe it if you will, but this situation may exist where you are as well. Sometimes there are opportunities where you would not even think of looking!
Sorry about TF lingo, to those of you who see red when you recognize certain phrases. It was more for your benefit than anything else, I was just trying to relate I guess. It is also a bit difficult to lay aside years of TF vocabulary habits. And again, like I said earlier, I also wanted to provoke a bit and it looks like I succeeded beyond expectations. I repent (oops, I did it again!) and will try to do better! But please believe me: I am real and have spent about half my adult life in 'the real world' and the other half in let's call it "Dreamland".
Reading over a few comments to my post, I find the accusations directed at me rather petty if not pathetic to be quite frank. "Oh, did you all hear that? He used the word 'potty'!" - Yeah, that must have hurt! "And look, he used parenthesises! Shame on him!" I mean, how small can you get! Please don't try any harder! Hey, I hadn't expected people running over with thankfulness and respect, but some of these comments hopefully represent the lowest ebb of the debate. If you can't stand being reminded of the vocabulary used in TF, how can you even endure your present existence? Do you have to look away every time you see a 'baby toilet' and say to yourself, "That was not a potty I saw just now, it was a baby toilet!", adding "And don't you forget that, you old ex-cultist!"? Or do you stick your fingers in your ears if you hear the word 'share'. How do you cope with 'file sharing'? Or is it an accepted moving on web site prerequisite to avoid all language and expressions that could possibly remind anyone that the writer has a background in the Family? I don't want to psychoanalyze and I definitely have no desire spiritualize this subject ..... It just seems that someone needs to take a step back and chill out a bit. While I expected a bit of flak for keeping a positive tone on a web site that generally voices gripes, this is fine and I can live with that, but why not try to keep a civilized tone and be as fair as we can? I was also thinking, what fun is a web site if everyone has the same opinion ("It was evil, wasn't it!?" "Yeah, and that's not the worst of it .....")
The main one issue that I would like to comment on is this seemingly commonly accepted misunderstanding that "I did not get an education in TF!" "I was deprived of an education." That is just not true, we were all given an education and taught a trade; we were taught how to be missionaries! That is the long and the short of it. We were given all the necessary training and tools along with a wide variety of job offers in many parts of the world. We were fully equipped in every way to do the work of evangelists. There was nothing lacking in our education that we were given; it was complete and very effective. If we later decided that we did not want to continue in that career, well, then we simply had to go through what everyone else who wants a career change has to do. And the fact that quite a few of us are now out in the "real world" proves clearly beyond a shadow of a doubt that we had a choice in this matter.
It is not uncommon in the "real" world that the parents have ambitions on behalf of their children and prefer that they follow in their footsteps. Sometimes quite a bit of pressure is put on the offspring to make them do the will of their parents. This is not just happening in “Dreamland”. People in TF are people with weaknesses and tendencies like all human beings. I think it might help to look at it something like this; you were brought up on a farm and since you were a tiny tot all you knew was the farm and all you learnt was what was needed to keep the farm running and in good shape. Farmers are notorious for being jacks-of-all-trades. The same with our background in TF, we learnt a little bit of everything. The farmer usually has the angle grinder in one hand and with the other he is milking or feeding the cows. All while the wife is taking care of the kids and preparing lunch. Like the farmer, we had to learn a little bit of everything without becoming experts in any field except that of missionary work. As the farmer's kids grow older some of them start wondering if they'll ever see the light of day and get away from the farm, not realizing that they are receiving a complete education in all aspects of farming and that they are actually much better off than most city dwellers. The father knows that to keep the farm running and in the family, at least one of the kids needs to be willing to take over one day. He is therefore trying his best to instill in the children a love for life on the farm and also teach them as much as possible of what he knows. If they want to go to agricultural school, even if it is not really necessary, he will sponsor that, that is if he can afford it, something he may or may not, as farmers generally don't make a whole lot of money. They are rich in many ways like family life and knowledge of the soil and nature and many other things like common sense and a down to earth attitude about things, but not always in material goods. Of course, for the farmer who has at some point in his life tried the city life and has seen both worlds, and is fully convinced the country life is where it is at, for him it is a great disappointment when the kids will have none of it. Like all parents, he loves his children and wants the best for them. They have attended compulsory education and graduated from high school, but if they want higher education that is expensive and beyond his means. It is just not financially possible. If the kids are attracted by the bright city lights and move away from home and forsake their inheritance, leaving their father and mother, now getting up there in years, to struggle to keep the farm running without the help they had been hoping for, then we are in many ways pretty close to the situation some of us find ourselves a part of.
A bit of realism never hurts anyone, and the attitude of "It is just not fair! Why was I born in the Family?! Why wasn’t I born to parents well embedded in the 'real world?" indicates that one is living in a dream world and is severely lacking in connection with the “real world”. It reveals that it's high time for a reality check! - Who the hell chooses to which parents you are born, anyway? Can you choose in which part of the world you're born? Can we choose our background? This wishful notion is something everyone at some point in life probably has. But we all get over it when we realize that wishing this kind of thing does not do a damn bit of good! "Boo, hoo, why wasn't I born to Bill Gates, I will hate my parents and make their life hell because they did not offer me the same that he could have!" How immature and silly can you get?
Personally, there are many things that I could have held against my parents, and in 40/40 hindsight there were lacks in my upbringing and training that were pretty glaring, but I have since I became an adult realized that they did the best they could and that they loved me the best they knew how. Looking back now at the times I went down that road of blaming them for what I had become and opportunities that I might have missed because of things they did or did not do; I see that it did not help any or do anyone any good. So, for your own sake and everyone you come in contact with, I would strongly recommend; grow up, and stop winching and whining! I tell you, I have met a few people like that, and I am talking about people with no TF connection or experience whatsoever, who holds grudges and blame their problems on others, and believe me they are not pleasant company and they don't make any friends or receive any sympathy either. They are simply a pain to be around and people shun them like the plague. The only place where their whining is accepted is among other whiners where they can all sit and sob on each other’s shoulders.
I know everyone has their bad hair days, and not everything is brought to closure in a day, but why don't we make this web site a place more aimed at contributing to simply "moving on"? 'Cause if there is anything that prevents one from just that, it is looking backwards and wallowing in the injustices one has suffered. That is s surefire way to never really taking off and realizing one's full potential.
May you continue to have a good NEW start of a BRIGHT new day!
Seeya ......
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from D'oh
Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 16:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
"Or do you stick your fingers in your ears if you hear the word 'share'" -- you bet your sweet bippy I do! That and a lot of other terms. How do I cope with "file sharing?" Well because the term has been deactivated by the preceding qualifier, you genius!
(reply to this comment)
| from D'oh
Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 16:12
| from banal_commentator
Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 14:17
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Can you say "BRAIN WASHED"???
(reply to this comment)
| from sarafina
Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:46
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is getting so old! Talking to this man is like ..hmmm lets see if I can put it in terms he can relate to ..hmm I remember something about. sowing seeds on rocky ground..or was it the wayside? No the wayside is where the birds came and ate all the seeds. Which one was where the seeds were falling on deaf ears? Forget it I'm glad I forgot all that stuff. What I'm trying to say is lets just throw this article in the trash where it belongs. I nominate this article to trailer trash! Anyone second that nomination.?
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Benz
Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 01:11
(Agree/Disagree?)
someone's been listening to way too much "how to be happy anyhow".
......fantasy land.....where stale bread and powdered eggs are really a 7 course dinner.
about us having a "vocation" being missionaries, isn't that something you choose, you choose your vocation, we did'nt choose to be missionaries, it is not our chosen "vocation".
besides....does FF'ing count as "missionary work"? besides the obvious related position?
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| from Nancy
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 20:07
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Irony - someone who joined a cult of their own free will and believed all its propaganda telling the former children of that cult who he participated in exploiting that it is "time for a reality check!"
True Irony - the only "reality" Benny and his little cohorts may ever know may come from the eight by eight walls of a cell, whether through incarceration or commitment. Either suits me.
Coming soon to a TV near you…it’s Uncle Ben’s powwow of Pollyanna…“Now kids, let’s all play the glad game and forget about who touched your privates last night or who beat your little brother until he bled. We’re going to give a shiner’s prize to the drone, I mean child, who draws the happiest ‘BRIGHT new day!’ We’re even going to let everyone who acts happy eat dinner!”
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| from Nancy
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 19:55
(Agree/Disagree?)
Oops! I must have pressed submit in my haste to respond to this nonsense being posted here by washed up middle-aged ex-cult members. The following is how it was meant to read after spell-check:
All righty then, I have been much too busy lately "realizing [my] full potential" to pay attention to this nonsense you've been smearing on this website, Benny boo boo, but my time has come to respond.
1. "long before I met the Family"? Don't you mean "long before I joined a cult which sexually exploited children"? Do you not read, Ben? You are NOT welcome here! Anyone as stupid and perverted as you who joined that cult of their own free will and contributed to the exploitation of everyone of us here does not have a word to say which we are interested in hearing.
2. "why don't we make this web site a place more aimed at contributing to simply "moving on"? 'Cause if there is anything that prevents one from just that, it is looking backwards and wallowing in the injustices one has suffered." It's not wallowing, Ben, it's called seeking justice. In civilized society, criminals are punished for the harm they inflict on others and the violations of their rights they commit, especially against the defenseless, such as children, which we all were. We are here to see that those wrongs are addressed. It is actually very cathartic and contributes to the promotion of civilized society in which we live to see that criminals are punished. "That is s surefire way to never really taking off and realizing one's full potential." Actually, Benny, a sure fire way to never "take off" is to join a fanatical religious cult that abuses children and deprives them and all its members of formal education and medical care. Further, I'd love to compare resumes, Ben. I'm quite confident that my credentials will put your measly cult member experience to shame, even if you have managed to weasel yourself a job in the service industry somewhere by lying about your past. The same goes for nearly every one else on this website. I'm fairly confident that your "potential" as evidence by your credentials will suffer by comparison to anyone else on this website. You have already proven that you cannot write well and use poor grammar and reasoning. Now, kindly take your middle-aged washed up, unoriginal cult BS and shove it up your ass! You waste our time!
3. “May you continue to have a good NEW start of a BRIGHT new day!” We were having a fine day, nearly blocking out the bad breathed rambling cult lectures from losers like you Ben, until you appeared like Pet Cemetery. You keep coming back! If you would kindly remove yourself from the gene pool, we might actually see that “BRIGHT new day”!
4. “Seeya” is two words, moron. As well is dumb ass. But pinhead, now that’s one word.
(reply to this comment)
| from Nancy
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 19:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
All righty then, I have been much too busy lately "realizing [my] full potential" to pay attention to this nonsense you've been smearing on this website, Benny boo boo, but my time has come to respond.
1. "long before I met the Family"? Don't you mean "long before I joined a cult which sexually exploited children"? Do you not read, Ben? You are NOT welcome here! Anyone as stupid and perverted as you who joined that cult of their own free will and contributed to the exploitation of everyone of us here does not have a word to say which we are interested in hearing.
2. "why don't we make this web site a place more aimed at contributing to simply "moving on"? 'Cause if there is anything that prevents one from just that, it is looking backwards and wallowing in the injustices one has suffered." It's not wallowing, Ben, it's called seeking justice. In civilized society, criminals are punished for the harm they inflict on others and the violations of their rights they committ, especially against the defenseless, such as children, which we all were. We are here to see that those wrongs are addressed. It is actually very cathartic and contributes to the promotion of civilized society in which we live to see that criminals are punished. "That is s surefire way to never really taking off and realizing one's full potential." Actually, Benny, a sure fire way to never "take off" is to join a fanatical religious cult that abuses children and deprives them and all its members of formal education and medical care. Further, I'd love to compare resumes, Ben. I'm quite confident that my credentials will put your measy cult member experience to shame, even if you have managed to weasel yourself a job in the service industry somewhere by lying about your past. The same goes for nearly every one else on this website. I'm fairly confident that your "potential" as evidence by your credentials will suffer by comparison to anyone else on this website. You have already proven that you cannot write well and use poor grammer and reasoning. Now, kindly take your middle-aged washed up, unoriginal cult BS and shove it up your ass! You waste our time!
3.
May you continue to have a good NEW start of a BRIGHT new day!
Seeya ......
(reply to this comment)
| from itsxena2u
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 16:32
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Ok, here's my viewpoint. I'm not pro-family and you'll tell by some of the articles/comments that I've posted here that I have suffered abuse in the past. I'm very disapointed in TF and have NO intention on returning.
However, I have learned a lot of really usefull things while living in TF. I'm the kind of person that can go through a bad situation and still get something good out of it. I REFUSE to believe that my whole life in TF was a waste because of what I suffered. I strongly believe that what a person learns in life and what a person is able to achieve in his/her lifetime is based on his/her attitude toward it! This means THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!! I did not choose to be born into TF, I did not choose to be abused. But one thing is certain, I DO CHOOSE to take the good and bad, the bitter and sweet, the hate and love and learn valuable life changing lessons that I will be able to use not only to benefit myself but others as well.
Missionaries are highly respected and admired. I was a Missionary folks! I am proud of the fact that I have helped and changed many lives. I may not have changed the world, but I sure as hell did the best I could to do my part. Although I am ashamed of what happened in my childhood, I am not ashamed of who I am and who I was. I sincerely wanted to serve God and this is why I struggled so hard in my adult years in TF to understand so many strange and controversial doctrines.
I have learned to rise above it and want to help my friends to the same. I know several friends (ex-members) who are very succesfull and never once have visited this site! Some may have seen it occasionally but don't bother to talk about it.
I have added on my resume the different types of work I have performed living overseas (I have put it in terms people will understand) as well as the work experience I have already accumulated since I've left. I've put together a pretty impressive resume and it has landed me a good paying job! Employers are very impressed with my ability to fluently read, write and speak in several different languages, my extensive knowledge of different countries and their cultures and not to mention my excellent PR skills amongs many other things. Like my father (who left 15 yrs ago) says: "success is measured mainly on your attitude in life". I tell my friends and co-workers that I was raised a missionary's daughter. I'm not going to come across as the victim of a terrible cult and expect pity from people. That would only make ME look bad. I am not ashamed of my past because I consider "my past" to be what "I did" and NOT what "others did" to me. I have high self-esteem. I highly respect myself and any other person trying to get on with their lives and "move on" as this site is so apropriately named. I think we are all trying to move on and are struggling to recuperate in one way or another. However, it is how each of us choose to "deal" with our hardships and difficulties and learn from them that will make the difference between our successes and failures.
I think it is very wrong to criticize someone who is trying to help others look on the positive side and use their past experiences to help foward their carreer along with a good education. Now if any of you don't agree with me and sincerely believe that you have learned nothing from your past, then I do believe your life was a total waste and I pity you.
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|  From Mydestinyismine
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 02:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
I found that last paragraph in your comment very offensive.
The reason it was so offensive is that how does one that was constantly sexually abused look at that as a learning experience? Even worse, positively?
How does one that grew up with: no parents, no education, Victor programs, multiple parents, unhealthy diets, etc...... I could go on, look at it as a learning experience?
Looking at ones past positively does not solve problems. It just puts you in a false reality. Much like Family homes. Facing your past, present and future and dealing with it and bringing closure does.
I think you should've had a few more categories. Like, those that accept their past and do their best to moveon. Everyday they deal with past hurts yet still moveon. I also seriously doubt you went through abuse if you stayed in TF for so long. You obviously believed in them because you got disappointed. Ben is acting arrogant and like he's solved how to overcome growing up in a cult. He clearly didn't grow up in TF, he didn't suffer any abuse and he agreed with TF doctrines. He's a slacker with an attitude.
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| | From itsxena2u
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 15:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Dear Mydestinyismine,
First of all I'd like to thank you for taking your time to read my comment and express your point of view. I apologise if I offended you. I don't always express myself perfectly but I apreciate your constructive critisism and lack of sarcasm when stating your opinion.
I know some people have experienced a whole lot more abuse than I did, we each have our way of dealing with our past hurts and that should be respected. I guess what I'm trying to say is we should use the negative to make us stronger and anything good we may have learned (computer knowledge, language diversity, PR skills, musical talent, etc) to help us in getting better jobs. (especially those who are still in school or have just left and therefore do not have a carreer set up just yet).
I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best at expressing myself. I like that part where you said "those that accept their past and do their best to moveon. Everyday they deal with past hurts yet still moveon". Yet I feel that its everyone's personal decision of whether or not they want to "accept" their past. I'd just hate for people to think that because what people went through in the past that their whole life was a waste or for nothing. Everything happens for a reason. Whether good or bad.
I just wish there was a way to help people going through severe depression, low self-esteem, anxiety attacks and other emotional problems caused by their past. I know I don't have all the answers. Maybe talking about it helps.
Anyway, there's my two cents.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mydestinyismine
Thursday, March 18, 2004, 02:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
My first reply actually did consist of sarcasm but my intent was not to start a fight or desrespect you so I re-wrote it. I'm not good at expressing myself in writing either so I know what you mean.
I also wish there were more options for those leaving TF outside of the US or English speaking countries. I know for one that in Japan the only jobs one can get right after leaving is night work or English teaching related. Although, it seems after I left some teens in TF did get a good education in computer related fields and found work here. When I left, there were a few who had relatives in the US or England to move to and get an education but thats the minority. I'm going to start in a community college shortly but I wish I had the opportunity when I left as a teenager, I'm now 23. I'm hoping to help my siblings out once I'm set-up. I don't know in detail what the "Safe Passage Foundation" offers. But I think there should be something in the US for those leaving, to move to to help moveon. This might be unrealistic thinking though.
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| | | | | From Mydestinyismine
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 02:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
One thing I forgot to add. I do believe a bad past can make one stronger for the future. But looking at the past positively is not the way to go and not necesarry to learn from it. You gotta stick to the facts and reality. Be honest about the shit that happened and accept that it's not your fault, that's some ways to get closure. Obviously, you haven't been through this. It's a pain in the ass but the feeling afterwards is awesome. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From itsxena2u
Tuesday, March 16, 2004, 20:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
Why don't you come out from hidding? Are you such a coward that you have to hide behind a fake name to make you sarcastic comments? I'm not going to take any comments from anyone who doesn't have enough balls to show their real face! The ones who are too chicken shit to express their opinions and let the world know who they are. To me you are nothing but spam e-mail or those annoying pop ups that keep coming up on the computer screen. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from Wolf
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 13:14
(Agree/Disagree?)
My theory: Zerby is pissed at losing members because of this site and sent one of her goons to try to convert the “weaker sheep”. She figures a few of the people who visit this site will be dumb enough to swallow this crap. Hell, it reeks of her language, even the “20/20 hindsight” she used throughout “Stay on the Wall”—though her goon somehow came up with 40/40 hindsight instead.
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| | | | from Shaka
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 02:13
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Ben, would you please tell us a little more about you? Such as where you live? Not because I want to understand where you're coming from, or empathize with your point of view, I just want to show up at your door and severely disfigure you. You sound identical to every cult member I loathe and would love to see destroyed. Freedom of speech doesn't apply to lunatics and that's what you are, ya freak! Nobody here has rosy memories of that goddamn bunch of nut jobs. If you do then you're either still one of them at heart, or you need serious help with your brain or what's left of it. To me, you're just another brainwashed loser. If you feel like TF was so good to you, you should be sending them 14% of your income. Remember, the Lord loves a cheerful giver! Why don't you just sell your business, give the money to Zerby and Co., and go waste your life begging to survive? You don't seem to have a problem with that sort of thing so quit being so lukewarm. Drop out, Brother! But whatever you do, leave us the fuck alone! We don't want or need your advice. If we survived TF we can survive "The System". Keep going for Gawd, bitch!
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| from Bones
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 00:03
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You are like a stupid dog so absorbed in your cushy state of "happy joy joy" thaqt you didnt notice you have wandered into traffic. You are shamefully ignorant. Keep your bullshit "pep talks" to yourself.
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| | | | from Mydestinyismine
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 23:44
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You're too deranged for me to waste my time reading that crap. But I would like to say this. You joined TF, you weren't born in it. You don't have a say on whether growing up in TF is good or bad. Leave that to us who grew up in it for years, without a choice. You can have an opinion but you'll get as much credit as a mall security guard gets when he offers an opinion on how to run the mall. Actually, your way of thinking is very similar to FGA's who think they did us a favor by having us do TF style "home schooling".
(reply to this comment)
| from Mydestinyismine
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 23:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're too deranged for me to waste my time reading that crap. But I would like to say this. You joined TF, you weren't born in it. You don't have a say on whether growing up in TF is good or bad. Leave that to us who grew up in it for years, without a choice. You can have an opinion but you'll get as much credit as a mall security guard gets when he offers an opinion on how to run the mall. Actually, your way of thinking is very similar to FGA's who think they did us a favor by having us do TF style "home schooling".
(reply to this comment)
| from anovagrrl
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 22:40
(Agree/Disagree?)
It would help a lot if you gave some reference points, like where you live now, where you grew up, and when you were born.
Where you live now is significant because what you have to say about finding employment bears no semblance to the reality of living in Ohio, USA, a place where over one-quarter of a million jobs have evaporated in the last three years.
Your remarks about teaching and working with children also bears no semblance to what is required to teach in the USA or Canada, or in any region of the world that requires a background investigation on everyone--from bus drivers to janitors to room monitors--who work around children. There are many states in the US where you can't babysit more than three children in your home without certification with Health and Human Services and a police check.
I think it is possible to have grown up in The Family and NOT to have experienced beatings and rape and even to have acquired a reasonably good education. But it would help to know WHERE you grew up and WHEN, particulary if you're interested in appearing to be anything more than a huckster and phoney.
I do not doubt there are many sincere rank-and-file Family members with an impressive commitment and sacrificial witness. Committing to the Family's ideals and discipline is one thing for adults who choose it, but it is unethical to bring thousands of children into a lifestyle that places them at very high risk of abuse, neglect, exploitation, and offers them extremely limited opportunities.
If you want to "live by faith" and be a wandering beggar or live by your wits as a way of financing your missionary work, it is irresponsible to expect "selfish Systemites" to support your 8, 10 or 12 children with charitable donations. Or to prepare your children to do little else but enter a family business built on the questionable premise that the world as we know it will end in their lifetime.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from loch
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 17:53
(Agree/Disagree?)
Just one quick comment, in reply to your comment to JoeH: YES, we were taught self hate, "You are your own worst enemy" Is one of the hugest doctrines that was hammered into me my whole life!!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from neez
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 14:48
(Agree/Disagree?)
An article commenting on ppls comments on your last article. Hmm
Anyone that takes it upon themselves to defend the family(especially on such a uniquely long & boring scale) has a screw lose somewhere.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From Cleppo
Tuesday, March 16, 2004, 21:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree... Who cares what you did or where you did it, if you don't have a legitimate document from a respectable source to prove you did it: YOU DIDN'T DO IT. And how long have you been out of TF? Well I'll tell you right now that two and a half years ago, when I left at seventeen, I hadn't been doing anything schoolastic since 14 or 8th grade. So In response to your "the family ed level has gotten better lately" how lately? Are we talking the last couple of weeks? My Mother and Brother just recently left and he began Middle School... he scored horribly on the placement test and was placed a year behind where most US kids his age are. So again HOW RECENTLY HAS THE ED LEVEL GOTTEN BETTER? Or are you perhaps saying it's gotten better since we were only required A SIXTH GRADE EDUCATION?
And Med school? You don't even start to cut real people up until you've finnished your pre-meds -- at least here where my girlfriend attends college at JOHN HOPKINS.
I realize you may be trying to balance out the runaway popularity of anti-Family sentiment here. However, you will not gain any credibility by making points that are not backed up by anything (ie: statistics, polls, or even a personal account), which will in turn undermine anything and everything you have to say. ASS. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 00:05
(Agree/Disagree?)
I suspect (very strongly) that our good friend Ben lives in Asia or Africa. It really doesn't take more than being caucasian, male and speaking fluent English there to ace your way through most qualifications, (unless you are cute and then there you are facing a whole different series of options). Ben, you probably have no idea at all what it takes to make it in a country where your skin colour doesn't make you a god, (although the health and educational system system here would be much better for your children).
Regarding the "runaway anti-Family" sentiment on this web site, the "negativity" that Merrily dislikes, the "over emotionalism" that Ne Oublie recoils at, to you all I say this: This web site is an open forum. We don't censor people because they have differing opinions than us. The only people banned were those that advocated criminal activity (which could get this entire web site shut down according to my hosting terms of service. We also delete pornography when people upload that in their private image galleries.) We are who we are. People who have something to say here say it. Anyone who has grown up where we have and who logs on here is free to say what they think.
This site is public. You don't need a password to view the contents. Everyone who registers is given instant access to publish their viewpoints. People's privacy is protected. You can use any name you want, but it's usally apparent within your first post if you have no knowledge of what we have experienced.
All that to say that maybe, just maybe, WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY IS ACCURATE. If you reading this disagree, then speak your piece. It honestly does annoy me, just a tad, that so many people here seem to have an opinion on what this site is for. This web site is for us. All of us. The goal for me creating this was for us to have a place that we all could speak our truth. If you are in the Family or out. If you are happy with your own life or not. If you are angry or not. It is for all of us who were born and raised in the Family. To speak as who we are INDIVIDUALLY. Regarding this issue, I think I can speak for all of us when I say no one wants to hear about what they should think or feel.
Ben, if you think you personally have had a great life because you grew up in TF, then tell us that. If you have a great success story about how you suceeded and went on to be all that you could be, then tell us how you did it. Please spare us the lectures on how we should all be grateful and thankful and should all think what you do. That is very offensive. No one needs your (or anyone else's) guidance. If you want acceptance for your own views, then show some for those of other people here. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 02:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, since you mentioned me in your post I'll take the time for a quick reply:
I am not questioning the veracity of what people claim to have experienced in the Family (a point which I've repeated right since the beginning) - I don't know most of you personally, and I most certainly don't know everything you experienced in TF - all I'm commenting on is how various ones have chosen to respond to what they experienced.
While what happened to us in TF was largely not of our choosing, how we react to it IS. I can see why some people would consider that they have a right to be angry because of what they've described on this site, but just because someone has a 'right' to do something doesn't mean they have to.
I consider that a positive approach is far better suited to building a successful future. This doesn't mean forgetting the negative, it's just a matter of addressing things from a perspective of how we can use the (little?) that we did learn, or how we can capitalise on what we experienced.
Furthermore, I admit that some may think that I'm trying to 'tell them what to do', and apologise if they find that offensive. Firstly, that is not my intention - I don't expect people to do what I'm saying, I'm simply expressing my opinions. Secondly, I also don't consider that I am 'telling people what to do' any more (in fact I would say a LOT LESS) than many others on the opposing side of my debates.
I so far have stated clearly that I understand and acknowledge the opposing views on numerous occasions. I do not however intend to repeat this in every post I write - I am as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours, and under the terms of the site it's pretty clear that I have as much right to post mine as anyone else.
I have been neither inframatory nor insulting in my language, I have consistently focused on the topic at hand, rather than ad hominem attacks. That I consider my opinions to be right is obvious, but I don't believe that there is 'only one right', and I daresay that I've been far more accepting of opposing views than many have been to mine. I'm not complaining - if I didn't like it I would have left long ago (like other ex-members I know who have been given grief on this site for not agreeing with the 'theme' of the discussions in these forums) - I'm simply pointing out the discrepancies.(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 08:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
I consider myself a "success in progress". I've accomplished almost everything I've set out to do. It's taking me a while to learn the ropes, maybe longer than some, but slowly but surely I'm making my way! I don't think it's necessary for one to sugarcoat the past in their minds in order to be sucessfull. I have an incredible amount of hate and anger for the lifestyle I was subjected to as a child. I will never "let it go" and look at it in any sort of positive light whatsoever. At the same time, I do not allow my past to rule my present. Everyday is a struggle, but I fight every day. I look at my past as what it is...a screwed up childhood with multiple forms of abuse. There is no positive spin I can delude myself into.
Your admonishment that I would be more successfull and happy if I somehow deluded myself into thinking my childhood was normal and happy is an insult. You have your own experience, but please don't presume to tell others how they should feel about their past. You may not be able to "move on" without a fantasy sugar coating on your past, but I am quite able to do so, thank you very much!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 08:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
The degree to which you have misunderstood my comments is amazing!
I have not 'sugarcoated' anything - nor do I recommend that to anyone. As I specifically stated, the process does NOT require forgetting (or ignoring) the past. Rather it is a matter of using it to our advantage. To use something to our advantage does not make it 'good', nor does it 'sugarcoat' it - it simply adds another 'tool' that we have at our disposal to create a better future for ourselves.
My life is not determined by my past, what I experienced in TF is strictly in the past. I now determine my own path based on the decisions I make each day. So far none of these decisions would have been bettered by a hateful attitude. Hate is not my means of dealing with things, I choose to look at them objectively, and determine any potential to be gained from it - that doesn't mean I consider it to have been the best possible, but it IS what happened. I have no control over the past, all I can control are my attitudes and my future.(reply to this comment) |
| | From frmrjoyish
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 12:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Please, Ne Oublie, your whole attitude since you've shown up on this site has been, "What's everyone's problem, we were lucky to grow up in TF, get over it and move on, people". I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first, but it's getting old! You've demonstrated time and again a complete lack of empathy or understanding for what the majority of your peers went through. You've taken every opportunity to back up anyone expressing positive views towards TF while calling into question many personal accounts of the abuse people have suffered. While your situation may have been different from most, any sane human would have enough decency to at least pretend to have a bit of empathy and understanding for others less fortunate. Sorry, but for me, childhood abuse is one "tool" I would choose to leave out of my toolbox if given the chance.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From GoldenMic
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 22:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
Exister, thanks alot for your comments. I agree with you about the value of pain and suffering in helping a person to authentically live life. I think this concept of "looking at the bright side" is short-sighted and artificial. While I see where TF aplogist is going, and I do not dispute the importance of positive thinking, it seems shallow and self-centered to just "move on" with a happy face. I DO understand that some people here are so damaged and pain-filled from their cult pasts that they are reduced to "living in today" and seeking self-pleasure certainly has value, but the hope for humanity rests with those who continue to fight injustice, and that requires some capacity to continue remembering the pain of the past. As for those who define us as "anti-cult educated" because we will not stand idly by while our friends and loved-one's continue to live with the ill-effects of their cultite lives, they are stupid or willfully hiding their heads in the sand. Mike M. (reply to this comment) |
| | From farmer
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 14:31
(Agree/Disagree?)
True Christianity has nothing to do with man-worship...there are so many Bibleverses about it, I wonder, how you could've missed it???Some book, some thought really got you on the wrong track!There's an amount of self loathing also in the believers life, however it tends, as life continues, more & more to self acceptance.Since you appreciate the full range of human emotions - by the way, me too - you also appreciate being happy...you can't be happy all the time, I figure, but nevertheless I personally look forward rather to more happiness than more sadness, although sadness has its place.I can imagine, that people with very sad experiences have the potential to have more empathy with people than others!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From farmer
Friday, March 19, 2004, 09:52
(Agree/Disagree?)
I conclude, you figured out creation vs. evolution...In one of your posts you said, that you were in TF-times so to speak on the verge of inventing a perpetuum mobile(of the first kind?!)...may be...I guess, it was a joke?!!!!Where all the energy/materia comes from, no one knows, neither anyone in Berkeley, Yale, Stanford or Cambridge.
Einstein is supposed to have said, all we can do is, tracing
His lines...and Heisenberg said, that the uncovering of two dots/points implies the defining of innumerable/infinite covered points which lie between them...
A little boy was playing at the beach, making a big hole.An adult passing by, asked him, what he was doing, "Oh, I am trying to fill the ocean into the hole", answered the little boy..."Don't you know, that this can't be done", replied the adult with a tone of surprise...
If I remember right, the anecdote is attributed in some way
to St. Augustine...How big is the hole you dug???(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | from frmrjoyish
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 13:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
Since you are so free with your unsolicited advice, let me return the favor! While your intellect may not be up to snuff as far as college goes, you may want to consider taking several remedial writing courses. One skill that both business, education, and scientific fields prize is the ability to communicate clearly and effectively with your audience without waxing verbose. Writing styles such as yours are sure to put your audience to sleep if it doesn't confuse them first. If this was some sort of oral presentation, it'd be sure to get you placed in the oh so coveted 5:00 pm on Fri spot at the seminar. You are a shining example of the "superior" education one recieves from TF!
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| | | | | | | | | | from Vicky
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
First of all, could you please clarify whether you were raised in TF or joined? If you joined the group you are in no position to lecture us as you have no concept of our background and the issues we discuss on this site. If you are an SGA you should know that we've heard all this stuff countless times before and you coming here and spouting off a bunch of crap isn't going to change us or our opinions. We can think for ourselves now and don't need you to come here with the same old script.
You have no idea how completely bored we all are with hearing this type of stuff -- Don't you think we heard enough of that patronising, naiive, one-sided and totally useless rubbish throughout years of family life???
I suggest you just go away -- We've heard what you think on this issue, you have now officially 'delivered your soul' and you can feel free to take your family appreciation society somewhere else! You forget that we are adults who have got where we are today by our own doing and no one else's. We are perfectly capable of getting on with our lives without your 'help.'
(reply to this comment)
| from steam
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
The education that is available in almost all situations in "The Family" at an older age level is not anything like what is available in the public school system of America. Sorry but that is hopelessly inacurate, even if in some place as an exception it might be true. What I find funny is the thought that the Family does a great job training people to be expert "missionaries". Sorry but although there are many sincere and good people doing their best in the group it is a very ineffective organisation with very little in positive long term results (and much in negative long term results), and the few rare cases where there are some good "fruits", it is almost invariably the work of someone who prefers to be isolated from the leadership structures meddling, and is therefore looked upon as slightly questionable. I haven't seen any "David Livingstones" in the group, either in their personal lives, or in the effect of their ministry on the world around them. You will also see dwindling concern for the world at large with the new focus on "looking inward" in the group, larger home, more leadership meddling etc.
(reply to this comment)
| from exister
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
"There was nothing lacking in our education that we were given; it was complete and very effective."
On this point you are either completely deluded or you are a paid stooge of the Family. Based upon your self-help style rhetoric I would surmise that your line of work is sales, HR or some other such occupation that involves blowing hot air up people's asses to make them feel better about themselves. For this sort of job your family upbringing must have prepared you nicely since bullshitting people for money was basically what we were all forced to do as children (I was damn good at it BTW). However for jobs and pursuits that really matter the Family gave us absolutely no preparation! When I was 12 I was deemed to be posessed by a demon and cut off from all schooling. When I left at the age of 16 I barely had a 4th grade education. Immediately upon leaving I began to pursue a legitimate education (and by "legitimate" I mean Mathematics, Engineering and other such rigorous disciplines). Through hard work I have now obliterated all of the educational defficiencies that the family left me with, and for you to come one here and tell me I got complete and effective education in that barbaric and backward cult is an insult.
I usually have little patience for fruity, intellectually lazy, liberal arts types like you, and even less patience for one who after having tasted freedom chose of his own free will to return the intellectual bondage of the Family. Fuck you, you twice loser! A loser once for being born into that cult and again for rejoining!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from exister
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
This clown is such an expert on the "real world" (fucking cheesy term made trite by MTV) that after leaving the Family the first time he ran straight back into "the arms of Father David" for a little time out. Then when his testicles had once again descended half way out of his abdomen he decided to give the "real world" another go.
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| from &%^!@
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
My issue is not what parents I was born to, it's what they chose to do to me. FYI, in the real world parents can get their children taken away if they abuse them. Child Protective Services does not see its mission as telling abused kids "suck it up, you can't choose where you were born, you get to be abused."
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from Blackout 2004
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:27
(Agree/Disagree?)
The title of your article is perfect. I invite you to heed your advice and get a "reality check" regarding your aptly named "dreamland."
Your attitude reminds me of a novel I read recently, which reminded me of my parents' attitude and that of so may other sold-out sellouts. In this story, a band of pals is traipsing through unknown land in the middle ages, and they find all kinds of strange countries and peoples. One land is totally dark, but its inhabitants are used to it because they have never known anything but the total darkness.
One of the friends remarks to the effect of "I think this must be the most beautiful place in the world!" "How so?" replies one of the companions. The response: "because even if there is any ugliness, you can't see it!"
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| from nobody
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think post shows how much we have gotten to Zerby. It’s almost like reading a publication. The anger, the tears, the compassion, the correction, the hypocrisy and the lies. Is anyone good at hacking………..hee hee, we might find something out
(reply to this comment)
| from Lauren
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
You say, "And for your information, I had it in for the churches long before I met TF".
So are we being fair to deduce the fact that you were not born and/or raised in the Family. That you joined the Family of your own free will?
THAT could explain a lot. Thanks.
(reply to this comment)
| from Dani
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
For someone who hasn’t bothered to leave their email and has spent half of their adult life in TF and the other out, you really must have lived for a long time. After all you really do have a lot to say. Just when I was missing my parents and other power hungry authority figures you bring back those sweet memories of all the nice things that they used to say.
Thank you for reassuring us that the patronizing attitude that we grew up with is still real and alive.
I really liked how you individually addressed people, I sure it will have a great impact and be a life changing read. After all, being older and wiser has given you the ability to make sweeping generalisations that define the very being of such people concerned.
Due to you’re wealth of experience in dissecting things (oh that's right you wouldn’t hack it) I’m sure we all want to be just like you.
I'm sure that you are very successful, at what who knows, or cares for that matter. I know people on this site could learn a lot from you, although some are more concerned with their families, careers or education.
JULES PLEASE BLOCK THIS FREAK!!
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | from merrily
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree with you Ben. I think at times this site is too negative and a lot af articles are picked to shreads instead of looking at them and seeing if there is something there. Let's be honnest there are not very many of us a thousand maybe. How many really visit this site on a regular basis, maybe a top fifty. I think we could help more kids that leave by being less critical and more open. If we jump down everyone's throat we will have less new kids on the block so to speak. I am not saying don't voice your opinion but let us do so in a more mature way.
(reply to this comment)
| From cassy
Monday, March 15, 2004, 16:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree. I can see both sides really. I thought Ben had some good points, but there were others I didn't agree with at all. I think harsh or generalizing statements are being said both ways. It would be nice to stick with discussing subjects and opinions and not attacking individuals in a personal way. We have a tremendous opportunity to connect together and help each other out due to the vast amount of us on this site. I don't think that any one of us can generalize what we all went through and here comes the controversy. Sweeping statements like, "we had a good education" is not accurate simply because I know friends that barely could spell, while for myself I was lucky to have a pretty good consistant education up to a certain standard. It depended where you were and the adults that were around you. --Even recently I know this to be the case because I worked in the EE with parents. Not everyone was getting it good. That's one of the problems with telling everyone to home school their kids. Not every mom is a teacher or is able to do what is asked of them in that respect. It's not fair on the mother or the children. Not to mention there is in most cases still a serious lack of socialization which is something I feel is very important. Another point is that I don't think anyone that "whines" on this site (I wouldn't call it that) actually does so in real life. In other words, this website is unique in that we can come and air things out and talk about them with people who have been through the same basic upbringing as us and can understand (and hopefully lend support). It is healthy to be able to talk through things, even if negative, to get rid of it. But just the fact that we've all made it out and found employment/gone into higher education, have loves and built new lives since leaving attributes to the way each of us have taken what we were given (or maybe inspite of what we had been given) and made something better of it. That's POSITIVE! I don't think it's the place of any of us to tell someone else how they should feel about their past because we didn't actually go through what they did or experience what they did. We all have a different story to tell and it affects each of us differently. In the same way, if Ben feels the way he does, then he has every right to it if that's what's worked for him. So here's my thumbs up for FREEDOM OF SPEECH!(reply to this comment) |
| | From Vicky
Monday, March 15, 2004, 17:16
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree that a few of the points are valid, but what I take exception to is that all-too-familiar 'shepherding' tone that runs through these two articles by Ben. I had more than enough of that meddling, condescending, patronising "You all should believe what I say, think as I do, listen to me and my wisdom" attitude when I had no choice but to listen and obey, and I'm not going to have any of it now.
It infuriates me when people talk to us as if we are 'dumb sheep', and that is what annoyed me about Ben's advice. If he had been a little more careful about how he worded it, he might have had a more favourable reaction.
I would also venture to say that the only person Ben should speak for is himself, and instead he spends a lot of time telling us how great our collective education was, etc. Now, I am willing to give Ben the benefit of the doubt and consider the possibility that he was sincerely trying to help and write a rousing, positive article, but, like I've already said, I think it could have been done in a much more palatable way.(reply to this comment) |
| | From moon beam
Wednesday, March 17, 2004, 16:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
IF Ben has just recently left then his 'Holy'er than thou' attitude makes sense[Ever the witnesser!!] and his recent finding out about a new truth, makes him feel like he wants to 'share'. He dosn't realise the extent of his gaps in knowledge etc.. He sounds tetchy and irritable/guilty and is stocking up on those rose coloured glasses...The onus is on [convincing]himself-SGA's NEVER joined.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from from
Monday, March 15, 2004 - 07:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Good luck with this, dude.
(reply to this comment)
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