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from ChivasRegal Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 04:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Having a whole book written about how to clean your penis and romp the aunties is bad enough... & I wouldn't trade in my bruising beatings, sickening disgusting meals, and years of pounding the pavements for that! (reply to this comment)

From family fun Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 19:58

from Baxter Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 06:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Truth is, I only just watched his pre=suicide video the other day. To me it expounded the entire tragedy that is the Family. I don't deny that befroe seeing that video I still subconsciously thought of Ricky as 'Davidito' with perhaps a certain level of rhetorical reverance. As far as I could tell, that was his position as well. He constantly sounded like he we still in the family, in fact there were times when his monologue sounded a lot like Berg in terms of jargon and structure" not just the same type of eupemisms, the same expressions; he drew the same sort of comparisons and analogies. worse still he appeared to subconsciously retain the position he had been born and raised to assume: he still saw himself as the leader of the second generation. In that context, in fact, I felt as if he somehow considered what had happened to others as in some way indicting him, as if he somehow shared in the guilt. What I saw was a young man aware of an enromous weight of imposed programming impeding his mind, but not completely able to comprehend or escape from it. The worst part of it was, some of us seemed to instinctively look to him for some sort of leadership, or at least it appears that that is how he felt. He appeared to have been deprived comprehensively of a basic process of social maturisation. In some repsects he was like a child; his simplistic assessments of justice, his adolescent obsession with weapons. This was a man who had never been a allowed to grow up- not even abnormally. However bad i had it. and however low I have sunk at times, I cannot compare my own pain with the obvious mental agony that he was suffering before he died. I felt after watching the video as if there was no other solution for him. He almost had to die, and that dying was the only respite he could ever identify. I can't compare myself to that under any circumstances. (reply to this comment)

From ????? Saturday, December 17, 2005, 15:51 (Agree/Disagree?) "his simplistic assessments of justice", Baxter can you expound on this? (reply to this comment)

From Baxter Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 21:12 (Agree/Disagree?) Call it a 'lone ranger' complex? (reply to this comment)

from Otter Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 01:46 (Agree/Disagree?) I want to thank everyone who posted a comment on this article. I really appreciate your comments. In my work I've learned that in order to get a reaction you need to make sweeping & controversial statements. It's not that I'm sold on my view point & if I pushed you in my relpies, it's not that I thought I knew better. It was to get you to defend your point more in a different way. Once again thank you all for your input. After everything I've been though it's nice to know I'm not alone in this world & that I have others who are also trying to live along side me. You guys are wonderful. I'm proud of you all. My deepest respect to you all. (reply to this comment)

from Thanks Otter, Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 01:08 (Agree/Disagree?) You have opened up so many people here. You knew your comments might open up some controversy but you took the plunge. Look at the result. Beautiful! (reply to this comment)

from Ralph Crayon Friday, December 16, 2005 - 16:48 (Agree/Disagree?) It needs to be borne in mind, that apart from those who knew him personally the only source of info the rest of us have about him is from the cult. It makes me sick to hear people in the cult tell me how Rick was a prince and how he had such an easy life... yeah, real fuckin easy...its a joke. What does anyone know about him to cast judgement on him one way or the other? Who can say that he didn't love Techi and Davida? When you love someone, really love them you feel their pain, it becomes your own. Were you there with him in Berg and Zerbys house, do you see what he saw? Experience what he did? You call living with those freaks, the worst of ALL the Family abusers being "spoiled". Thats just fucking bullshit. God, do you not recognise the programming here, thats Family speak. Fuck that. How can an opinion i.e. yours be valued when it was constructed using so little information. (reply to this comment)

from conan Friday, December 16, 2005 - 12:53 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd like to say that it took guts to post what you did on this site. That is admirable. That being said, while I (think I) can understand where you're coming from in voicing what you have, you must remember that Ricky was Berg and (consequentially) TF's guinea pig. Berg, Zerby, and the rest of World "Services" experimented on Ricky, Davida, Mene, Techi, and others, like they were expendable lab rats with no feelings and no purpose other than to serve the "greater good" of TF. Yes, I hated never enjoying my food and being beaten to be made to finish what was set before me and going out as a glorified beggar to try and raise some rupees or liras to support the psychotic, child abusing, molesting, sycophantic adults I called "uncle" and "auntie" out of fear for my ass’s well-being. That being said, I don’t know if that was any better or worse than being the sole focus of a deranged “prophet” and his henchmen posse who prodded and probed at me at will, berated me, beat me, abused me, molested or had me molested, all in a forum that was made public to thousands of world wide followers as an example of how to raise a kid in “God’s army”. I hated my childhood. Still hate it to be exact. How much more messed up would I be today if my life was documented and published for others to copy, all while still going through expanded mind-numbing humiliations, etc. I think the feeling of helplessness while your sister and best friend are fucked by men many times their senior and having your own mother have sex with you is enough to make the strongest of minds buckle and snap. Then top that off with having thousand of invisible peers be told that you are the ‘chosen one’ to lead your generation into the new millennium and see if you can deal with all the feelings of guilt, or of being trapped and powerless and no way out. I don’t condone what Ricky did, but I have no idea what I would have done given the circumstances that he had. Shit, I may have started killing sooner and more often. I don’t revere Ricky. In fact, as a kid I often thought that he had it easier than I did. That was also when I was brainwashed into believing that TF was a beautiful place to be raised where abuse was absent and love was rampant. I was wrong about that, that’s for sure! So how wrong was I about Ricky having it easy? (reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 13:18 (Agree/Disagree?) I appreciate all of your opinions as I said in response to another comment, I didn't mean to come across as absolute. I was simply stating how I felt. I commend to other users of this sight for their open mindedness. I impressed that even through all that we've been through we can have a civil disscusion.(reply to this comment)

from I think Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 18:41 (Agree/Disagree?) A part of Ricky's dilemma was precisely his fear of people thinking of him that way, blaming him for it and/or expecting him to be able to expose his mother in such a way that her evil empire ended, but he did not know how to show the rest of us that he felt bad for any material comfort he got that we did not and acknowledge our suffering and abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if that fear was one reason he shunned exers for years. His solution was not constructive. Had he gotten professional counseling, I think he may have been able to get help to see another way. (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Thursday, December 15, 2005, 20:00 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree that the right kind of counseling would have been a major help, but in truth there are few counselors who would have had the skill/talent to deal with the needs of ANY cult survivor. Also, I wonder if another issue for Rickie was being raised on a daily basis to believe that he, personally, was responsible to take some action that would save and lead "his people", since he had been raised as a savior-figure. What a horrible and unfair burden, and certainly as damaging to a child's psyche as possible. This surely could have made him feel compelled to take direct action, and to have judged himself overly-harshly for not having saved his many damaged peers. As has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, the complex and individualized responses to trauma make it very difficult to get into the mind of any single individual's path in surviving the oppression of cult abuse. For me, the miracle is seeing how many people here continue to struggle and survive and even overcome the horrors thrust upon them by their cult-parents, a powerful tribute to the strength of the human spirit and the brave people on this website.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 14:29 (Agree/Disagree?) You have a very valid point. I can see how he would have felt like that. As someone else mentioned he didn't have much contact with others for a while. Could it be that he was trying to be accepted by us?Feeling guilty for what his parents did to us. I don't know. And as you said it's hard to get into an individual's mind. (reply to this comment)

From uh Friday, December 16, 2005, 19:03 (Agree/Disagree?) I think so. Did you watch his video?(reply to this comment)

From Otter Saturday, December 17, 2005, 01:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, I did. And I felt sorry for him.(reply to this comment)

From Bones Thursday, December 15, 2005, 23:08 (Agree/Disagree?) Counseling would destroy me. I can't bring up all the reality anymore. I just try to stay one step above it. It never really goes away. You get better to some degree, you develop a thin layer of ice that holds you delicately above the raging murderous sea of emotion below your feet. Sometimes you become to heavy and the ice breaks. It comes in like a flood through your soul. It completely consumes you. To this day I am afraid, every day, that someone will see the weak little infant inside me and I will lose everything I fought so hard for. I can never sit still, if I do, dread falls over me like rain, "idle". Everything good that happens to me is tempered with fear of loss, "you don't deserve it". When I receive a compliment, somewhwere between the time it hits my ear, and the time it hits my emotions, it turns into a knife, "you are worthless". When I'm around people in a social setting, I don't know anyone. I want to hide, but I can't. So I hide inside myself, "Nobody want's to know the real you". Who would understand? You would never know me from this. On the outside I am charm, personality, wit, friendly, outgoing, good looking. On the inside I want to scream, cry, yell, hide, go to sleep, I am ugly. i wish that part of me would wither and blow away. I didn't ask to be born into this horror. You can't chose your birthright. Yet, when my wife say's my name, I melt inside. When my children smile, I am reborn. When I hear a song that plays my heart like strings, I live it. When I watch the sun go down over the ocean in the most beautiful reds, oranges, blues, and purples you could immagine, my problems don't seem to matter as much. It has been many years. I know what all of you are going through. "Die daily"? It's funny but I do, and every day I am reborn. It is how I have learned to live. Find things to love in your life every day. A smell, a song, a friend, a love, whatever you can hold on to, and never let go of it. Sometimes it's all you have. I can't use my name, because this is to much for me. This is my life. Please be kind. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Friday, December 16, 2005, 16:28 (Agree/Disagree?) I detest the idea of counseling. I avoid it like the plague. I know it would only tear me apart. But, others seem to benefit from it. For me running a marathon does more than all the therapy in the world. Leave my heart and mind alone. It's been through enough. Die daily. What a perfect term for this unique, yet strangely similar, life we live. I love the way you find the words to express things I feel. I don't have it in me to do what I would typically want to do, which would be to try and say something encouraging. It's hard to be supportive, or even connect, when you're barely hanging on yourself. I guess all I can say is I understand. I admire you, though. Your honesty is so beautiful. I stopped being that honest years ago. I think all the critiques and those who presume to know what is best for themselves and everyone around them that they barely know finally got to me. I'd rather suffer silently than hear their words of "advice". Now, my sadness is only rivaled by my repulsion and anger towards the judgmental. All that anger drove away my honesty and the purity and innocence of pain. (reply to this comment)

From Saturday, December 17, 2005, 13:20 (Agree/Disagree?) I think too many of us, if we have been exposed to "counseling," it has been in the "shepherding" mould that was anything but benevolent to its "counselees." Some of the comments here, while they make me cringe because I can think of no population more deserving of quality coulseling, seem to confirm that poor counseling may be damaging, like bad training in a sport or art, which can hamper the existing ability. It troubles me very much. I have been stubbornly seeking psychological help for many years, and have, it is true, encountered some that I have dropped. I have found excellent counsellors, but they do tend to cost a lot. It is also true that they simply are not everywhere. GoldenMic, I agree that " there are few counselors who would have had the skill/talent to deal with the needs of ANY cult survivor." However, until the day that state of affairs changes, certain good counselors sufficiently well-versed in trauma and resultant maladaptive coping can be educated by the client (yes, it's hard work) and become extremely helpful. Do exers realize that unlike Shepherds (who were on Berg's/Zerby's/the Group's side), professional counsellors are on your side? They are indeed ethically obligated to you in that sense. I can't speak for the "pastoral" church counselors -- I am referring to those who are trained and licensed professionally, and the best of whom are unfortunately expensive (sometimes even if you do have good health insurance, which I am not sure many of us do). Like in any profession however, there are bad counsellors, like bad cooks, drivers, doctors or lawyers. I have to say that the comments to this effect in this thread are diminishing my hope for the healthy, alive future of our demographic. I hate that.(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 09:38 (Agree/Disagree?) Counseling is about you placing things properly, it’s not necessarily about you learning, it’s about you understanding. I used to think counseling was for the seriously ill only until I started going (I fall into the category of seriously illJ ) People use counseling for all types of reasons. Athletes will use counseling to help them deal with the stress and press, Howard Stern uses counseling to help him remember he’s a freak :) I use counseling to help me move on and thrive in my personal and social life. Before I started going, the thought of counseling was very overwhelming as it brought up being in the shepherd’s room receiving my weekly chastening. What I have found is that it’s in a therapist’s best interest to help you understand yourself and not themselves, contrary to a shepherd. A therapist will always try to understand you because that’s their job and a good doctor or counselor is interested in helping you find the strength within yourself to not only "survive", but "thrive" in life. Finding the right therapist might take some time and money, but it’s time and money well spent in my opinion. If your therapist is just pretending and trying to hurry up and go home, then fire him and get a new one. Ultimately you have the answers to all you need inside of you and if you can access that by taking a jog or hike then you’re good to go. If a jog or hike isn’t therapeutic enough, then try counseling. (reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 11:41 (Agree/Disagree?) Counselling is for people who either want to benefit from another's advice or are unable to sort out their problems on their own. I don't think there should be any stigma associated with one's choice to seek counsel, but it is far from a necessary step to take, nor is it in any way indicative of the extent of the issue for which that counsel is sought. That said, counselling as a whole has significantly raised its profile in society, and is now IMO being overused to the extent of usurping the natural role of a family/community in times of difficulty. Not to mention the many 'imagined' or exaggerated reasons for which it is more and more becoming encouraged. While I don't question the benefits experienced by those who have received counselling, I do sometimes wonder whether it was the best - or even a necessary - process. I guess it all comes down to a matter of each individual finding their own way through life, and all the more power to those who do choose that route.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 11:19 (Agree/Disagree?) OMG! I agree with Ne Oublie, and not just a little, 100%. Counseling is a fad for some people. It has become sheek for spoiled, narcisistic lawyers who live at home with their parents and for whose whole life is focused solely on themselves to go to "counseling". Ugh! It's repulsive to hear them talk about it. They never experienced any trauma in their lives, but they love to obsess over themselves. They were never deprived of anything, but they love to talk about how so-and-so didn't give them enough love and blah, blah, blah... I've also seen counseling used as a judgmental weapon by some cult survivors. "Well, you obviously have a lot of issues and should seek counseling..." Whatever! The problem begins when one assumes they know what is best for another. No one is alike. I also believe 100% that some people I love very much would not be here without the benefit of a good counselor they were fortunate to find. Some people cannot benefit enough from the counseling they've received. It is a very individualized thing. Just like some medication doesn't work for certain people. I also love the point you made about the benefit of friends and family. I rely on that heavily. I listen to my friends and family and bounce stuff off them all the time. It works magic in helping me sort out issues. It works for me so much better than having to catch someone up on the situation for months before you can get them up to speed. Besides, no one really understands an issue like those who have experienced it. Some of the wisest people I know are my survivor friends who have learned what they know through blood, sweat and tears. They know from trial and error. They lived what they're talking about. I think that really makes them experts. I think that is why people who have lived through amazing situations write books. Others want to know what they learn and experienced. Not everyone has every answer. But, there is a lot of truth out there. Much more than what is written in a generic text book. It sometimes also helps to get perspective from someone who is not close to a situation. Yet, that can be obtained through friends and family, too, if one is lucky enough to have non-judgmental, caring people in their life. All that to say, I reject the idea that the holy grail of life's answers lie in only in office of some $190 an hour therapist. Just not so. And I resent that those who do not seek counseling have become somehow stigmatized as the lazy, non-progressive ones who care nothing about their own mental health. Just not so. Everyone learns and heals differently. And for some life's truth can be found more readily at the 19 mile marker, scaling half way up a cliff, in the meditation of a yoga mat or in the silent company of a non-judgmental friend than in the words of advice of a textbook educated academic. (reply to this comment)

From just remember Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 11:34 (Agree/Disagree?) Sometimes your friends will not have the skill to help. Other times they will be too overwhelmed with their own pain to help, as much as they might like to.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 11:55 (Agree/Disagree?) That is not what I am saying. I'm not talking about a bunch of suicidal companions being to each other basically the blind leading the blind. If someone is too overwhelmed with their own pain, then that person is probably not a good source of information on the particular subject. Probably not a good person to lean on at the moment. I'm talking about normal folks relying on the advice and friendship of other normal folks. Large families do this. Native Americans did this. People for thousands of years have been to each other the strength and encouragement and passed along wisdom that was needed to get them through an issue long before leather couches and therapy bills were invented. If someone is "overwhelmed", this is another situation in which a doctor is probably needed. We're talking about the difference between pretty normal, healthy people and those just hanging on. If someone is just barely making it, then a doctor is a much better answer than chatting up a girlfriend or consulting an experienced member of ones family. Two separate issues. If someone is in a pretty good place, but needs some guidance in a difficult situation, then it is not always necessary for them to lay out thousands of dollars and scores of hours of time to find out what they could have figured out on their own. Leave it up to the individual to have the intelligence and resourcefulness to find their own way and what works best for them, rather than assuming they're such a bumbling idiot that they would only have the wit to call a suicidial pal to get advice on whether life was worth living. (reply to this comment)

From anovagrrl Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 15:02 (Agree/Disagree?) I sense from reading your posts on this topic that you've never reached a point where you were actively suicidal (made a detailed plan or actually made a serious attempt that put you in the hospital). Similarly, it seems that you have not experienced persistent, unwanted instrusive thoughts about hurting someone else to the point that you made a detailed plan or actually made a serious attempt that resulted in your arrest. These two things--danger to self or another person--are the bottom line with regard to the necessity of psychiatric care. The type of mental activity I'm describing is way beyond something a person can just snap out of through positive thinking, running a marathon, doing martial arts, or talking to a trusted friend or family member. If you reach the point where a medical/psychiatric professional deems you to be a danger to self or others, you won't have a choice about whether you receive treatment, and the treatment you receive won't involve self-actualization counseling at $170 per hour. There is at least one high risk behavior that falls into a gray area on the assessment of danger to self. If you ever self-mutilate yourself so badly that you end up in a hosptial ER for stitches or treatment of infection, you may find yourself unwillingly held over for a 24-hour observation while a psychiatrist decides whether to file for probated admission to a psych unit. On the other hand, you can drink and drug yourself into a psychotic stupor or respiratory/cardiac arrest, and the ER doc probably won't think about asking for a psych eval or probated treatment. Ninety percent of women addicts who live and die on the streets are childhood trauma survivors who've developed brain diseases. The only way they're likely to get treatment is if they're hauled before a judge for attacking someone while in a drug or alcohol-induced psychotic state, and the judge has some enlightened notions about the benefit of diverting the woman into a forensic treatment program. Being a lawyer, you probably know some of this stuff. Just thought I'd mention it for the benefit of people who might gloss over your caveat about conditions under which seeing a doctor should be considered. In my world, mental health treatment isn't a self-indulgent past-time for the worried well, i.e., an activity for neurotic, affluent lawyers who still live at home with their parents. I totally agree that for most people with those kinds of issues, figuring out how to grow up and live well doesn't require clinical expertise.(reply to this comment)

From Psych Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 16:25 (Agree/Disagree?) The 3 criteria are: Danger to self Danger to others Gravely dissabled(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 16:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Uh, yeah, exactly! I completely agree and think what you said and what I said agree as well. I was simply highlighting the distinction between folks who really need medical help and those who need to just work out some issues. My examples of those who are just hanging on was by no means exclusive. I was a pre-med psychology major undergrad afterall. I believe in medical care for mental disorders. I believe in medicine. I believe in therapy. I have consulted therapists and attended couple's counseling in the past. I just don't believe it works for everyone, especially those who are not inclined to it and who do not have serious mental disorders. Whereas those who do really have little other choice but to seek medical care. (reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 15:59 (Agree/Disagree?) Responding as a counselor of 20 years, I think there is merit in your perspective, and that counseling is probably over-rated in our time, especially where there is an implication that such a process can solve every pain for every person, which it cannot (and usually does not), of course, deliver. At the same time, we exculties are often really, majorly messed up from our experience, having bourne traumas and betrayals that no child should have to bear, and in many cases a trauma specialist counselor of great skill and talent would be a significant and valuable resource. I guess I am trying to suggest that what's generically true about the counseling profession is not the same as what may be more true about good cult/trauma specialists; it often helps a lot, especially a) during crisis periods, b) when one is wanting to do deep inner work, and c) as an educational and support resource during the initial leaving period. Of course, one size does not fit all, but severely traumatized people, especially if they are strong and intelligent, could be expected to cope overly long within their depression and dissociation, and might often speed up the healing and truly benefit from expert identification of the processes involved, and solid techniques for personal recovery from the wounding. I believe that the more one studies and works with the still-small field of trauma expertise, one becomes more convinced that a wheel has been invented that does not need to be re-invented each time by a lonely, frightened, and yet determined cult survivor.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 07:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Although I agree with your premise, as well as your conclusion, I disagree with the reasoning you have used to reach that conclusion. I think that it is not so much the extraordinary nature of our past experiences that would make cult-raised-kids more likely to benefit from counselling, as it is due to our current social position. As I said in my original post, I consider the role of counselling to have moved into that which was once filled by a strong family and community. This is the 'safety net' which we typically do not have - whether it be because our parents are still cult members, or if it is simply that the 'normal' bond of trust has been eroded by our experiences growing up. Similarly, our links with our broader family were largely severed in childhood, meaning that we are left without the only 'community' we had growing up. It is this void which I think counselling can fill for some. A large degree of trust is required when discussing such personal matters - a trust which is typically not, and nor should it be, given easily - which would usually be given to family members or long-time friends. The objective and 'third-party' nature of counsellors means that one is better prepared to trust their confidence and advice on such sensitive matters, thus providing someone without the traditional style confidants a listening ear.(reply to this comment)

From GoldenMic Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 12:08 (Agree/Disagree?) That is an excellent point! While I don't think it negates my own thinking from another angle, I think you've presented a very valid and helpful perspective. Thanks.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Sunday, December 18, 2005, 20:22 (Agree/Disagree?) Ugh! Why do some people just not get it that counseling isn't for everyone. Religion doesn't work for some, neither does the almighty counseling. Sitting around talking about issues doesn't benefit everyone. For God's sake. Give folks some space for finding their own in the world. I literally can run a marathon and ditch a thousand demons in the training and the actual race. But, I don't go around pushing marathon running on everyone. And it's not the good and the bad counselor argument, either. It's just as simple as not everyone is the same. Period.(reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 06:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Being Your Own Person After a while you learn the subtle difference between holding a hand and chaining a soul, And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning and company doesn't mean security, And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts and presents aren't promises, And you begin to accept your defeats with your head up and your eyes open, with the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child, And learn to build all your roads on today because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans and futures have a way of falling down midflight, After awhile you learn that even sunshine burns if you get too much, so you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers, And you learn that you really can endure, http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap8/chap8c.htm That you really are strong and you really do have worth, And you learn and learn... with every goodbye you learn. http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap8/chap8c.htm(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 07:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, and sometimes YOU learn it on your own rather than a person being paid to sit there spooning it to you and pretending to know what in the world it was like to experience your life.(reply to this comment)

From Question Saturday, December 17, 2005, 09:15 (Agree/Disagree?) Nancy, I write this with all due respect, but what happened with Hassan (sp) that was on Montel with you? (reply to this comment)

From And your point is? Saturday, December 17, 2005, 13:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Hassan lives in Massachusets or thereabouts. Now that is helpful for those of us who don't-- how? I also think he specializes in FG issues. He also has to pay his rent and maybe loans from his training, and doubt he has the budget to see many people for free much less fly around the country to do so.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, December 16, 2005, 16:46 (Agree/Disagree?) Don't let the bastards get you down. When you close your heart you forget how to be human. (reply to this comment)

From Jules Friday, December 16, 2005, 16:00 (Agree/Disagree?) I can relate to what you have said here so well. To know that someone feels exactly as I do is strangely comforting. This year I fell through the ice. The ice has been getting thinner for a number of years. Last year I even wrote something completely soul-baringly honest here about it but did not have the courage to write it under my own name. I used the nickname Laura. Perhaps it is time to face up to the person I really am: http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=33&ID=1963 I have been out of the Family for over ten years. When I was in the group or even FOTB, I would have said that this was more than enough time to "get over it". Yet what I have done for most of the past decade is exactly what you have described so well. I used distraction and avoidance to "get on with my life". It does work in the short term, but the effects of trauma do not go away just because you refuse to think about or acknowledge them. I have this year been getting counselling and treatment. I cannot say that it has not cost me and I have lost many things I held dear. I did not however, lose everything I have worked so hard for. I still have my hope, my integrity, and my fundamental strength. I have wanted to talk about my recent experiences here but have been hoping for a happy ending that I could include in my accounts. That has not yet been forthcoming. Yet, one concept I am learning to accept is that sometimes the journey is as important as the destination. On my wall in my office at home is a poem I wrote in 2002 http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=8&Cat=19&ID=719 I sometimes wonder where that person went. When I read this though and look at what I claimed for my own, and that I claimed the values and qualities that they could not destroy, I am committed to seeing my affirmation through. I will take each day, each endeavour and each opportunity as one to define myself. What was done to me has been done and I cannot undo it. I have to cope with the effects of the trauma inflicted on me for the rest of my life. What I have discovered through counselling though is that the worst types of stress are the circumstances and events affecting me I believe have absolutely no control over. Whatever I can do to take action and to be back in control of my own destiny goes a long way to relieving the feelings of panic. I can succeed despite the odds. I can take the time to listen to myself and understand intellectually what my instincts and emotions are saying and why and then decide on a course of action, balanced between the three. I can also choose my friends. Expectations are an intangible and I am not bound to what others expect from me or what I think others expect from me. I do not need to be all things to all people. If something makes me feel upset, unsafe or uncomfortable, I can say so and I can remove myself from that. Anyway all that to say, thank you for writing this. I completely relate and understand. You are much braver than I have been. (reply to this comment)

From ESJ Friday, December 16, 2005, 21:03 (Agree/Disagree?) Just read your other post under Laura, Jules, and again the tears are flowing, it just so breaks my heart. Even though we left quite awhile ago now, my own kids and I have each gone through a major 'melt down' at some stage, with the seeming need to be addicted to something that has been used as a crutch - (which then has ultimately turned into self-abuse) - and we're not all out of the woods yet. Even now, we are each in our own way painfully aware of certain very fragile areas in our psyches that have to be protected from too much stress, and we're each still working through stuff and 're-parenting' ourselves all these years later. So I can only imagine how intense it must be for you and other SG's who went through so much more. And each of us (in my family) has gone through the same reaction and hit the same problems when attending any kind of therapy groups or workshops or 12 step programs, as well. Any kind of 'group participation' still triggers a strong internal resistance and reaction to being preached to or 'taught' or patronized or 'helped' by someone who thinks they've got the answers and are so blind and unaware of where you've come from. And the worst is when they just wanna hear your story out of some kind of morbid fascination. Then there's dealing with the envy and resentment towards those who've had it so easy and are so blase', and the rejection by new friends when when they find out about your past and all the 'baggage'. It just seems to reinforce the 'unworthy' and 'unlovable' programs all over again. I just so wish there was an easy '5 step healing and re-integration method' out of this turmoil, and that there was more I could do to be of help on the personal level. But who am I? All I have is love, and a few internal techniques that have worked for me. I don't have all the answers. But I'm determined to learn more and find more answers, so that ultimately there will be more help and support available for you guys. I love you, Jules, and have great respect for you regardless of what seeming 'weak areas' you may be struggling with. It's completely understandable. I leave you with this quote from 'Awakening' by Inayat Khan... "If you think that you are handicapped in some way, you will find that your compensation for it is a quality that you wouldn't have cultivated if it were not for that innate 'flaw'. Indeed, one is never so strong as when one is broken. When you grasp this mystery, then you will be able to see that, ultimately, HOW YOU ARE BROKEN IS WHERE YOU ARE WHOLE." Love, Eva(reply to this comment)

From friend Friday, December 16, 2005, 18:31 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules, When you said you 'fell through the ice' reminded me of the British documentary 'touching the void', about a mountaineering experience. I had instances with my counselor where I am so incredibly judgmental of myself, impossibly so. - One thing I truly believe is that we must come to accept that what happened to us was not our fault. Perhaps then we can open doors to new chapters of our lives and allow ourselves new experiences, without feeling trapped in the 'reality' TF tried to impose upon us. Sometimes I think the Pavlov's dogs experiments hold much significance for us and our experience growing up the way we did. - the fear of no control becomes our own prison when we feel we must control everything around us.......& it is so hard to let go when there is nothing there to catch you. PS. Just saw 'Born into Brothels' - I was amazed how much I related to their experiences/ lives. I hope that our experience will some day be used to help others, & you already have.(reply to this comment)

From afflick Monday, December 19, 2005, 14:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I am also the oldest child. In a family of six girls, I have been the most abused, the most f-ed up by my parents behavior. Recently, while studying abroad, two of my sisters flew over for separate visits I really believed that my sisters and I would grow closer now that we were adults and away from all this bulls--t. Instead, over their week-each visits, I felt myself drawing greater distance. The truth is, I would love to be close to them and have that "storybook" sibling relationship. I need something like that because my emotional links to my parents are so fragile. But I simply cannot connect with them right now. I know my sisters left our visits hurt and disappointed with me but I cannot even write them an e-mail to explain. I need time. I need them to see me less as the older sister and see me as I am--a peer. Or maybe I am not a peer. Due to various factors and a four year age gap between myself and my next oldest sister, my childhood was quite a bit different than theirs. I feel like I was always the "Samuel" being sacrificed to the temple of The Family as my parents penance for living their rather secular lifestyle. As a result I got less schooling and more teen camp-ing, more indoctrination than the rest of them put together. My sisters are beautiful, accomplished women. I would LOVE to get to know them better and be a part of the sisterhood they share. But when I think about reaching out to them I just want to wrap myself up in a downy duvet and sleep for a long, long time.(reply to this comment)

From Bones Monday, December 19, 2005, 15:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Do you find that you have anything in common with them? Do you try to connect with them and it just doesn't happen, or does there seem to be an empty hole where the parent/sibling bond should be? I ask because I find the latter to be the case for myself. I don't know who my siblings are now because I did not grow up around them for most of my life. My parents are another story. They have moved on in their own ways. I have tried to forget who they were, and that leaves me kmowing nothing about them now. I haven't seen my siblings in a year, before that, 2 years. Same with my father, and I haven't seen my mother in 4 years. But I don't miss it, they are strangers to me, it's simply not there. Do you find this to be the case? (reply to this comment)

From afflick Wednesday, December 21, 2005, 09:11 (Agree/Disagree?) My younger sisters were born with only small age gaps between them and grew up together, with me always off to some teen home/teen camp/new "mission field." So, yes, I do have things in common with them (ambition in our careers and some childhood memories) but there is still a barrier between me and them due to years of distance and their limited understanding of what life contained for me, their years-older sister. My sisters arrived in time for my parents to settle down, stop FFing, only visit Homes a few times a year, etc. However, as the oldest, I received the most indoctrination and that did not stop when my family lived on our own. I wasn't to listen to secular music, eat junk food or watch frivolous TV. Instead, as my parents were tithing and receiving all the Famiy mailings (it was before the days of TSers) I read and re-read all the publications from the age of eight. The good news is that my siblings are really trying to understand and support me as best they can. It is just I cannot open myself up to them yet. They want to talk about it and understand my experiences from their perspectives but this just forces me to re-live it all again with them. I don't want to do that right now. This year has already been intense enough with Ricky's death, the media coverage surrounding it, the re-examination. I need a break. (reply to this comment)

From Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 06:07 (Agree/Disagree?) "Studies of neglected children find that often what they see is a still-face, no matter what the expression. Many of them lack basic face reading skills. Of course, this makes complete sense. Who would teach them to read a face? The mother who had no interest in them? The father who wasn’t there? As Harry Harlow’s studies—and the studies that have grown out of them—show, social isolation has devastating effects. "Many people still do not appreciate how bad the effects are," says psychologist Irwin Bernstein of the University of Georgia. We need not just to be loved, but to feel loved. What’s important is not that the mother—or any of us—gets it right every time. It’s fixing mistakes that matters—even just the willingness to try again. The requirement is just to stay in there. Harlow’s research tells us that love is work. So do all the studies that follow. The nature of love is about paying attention to the people who matter, about still giving when you are too tired to give. Be a mother who listens, a father who cuddles, a friend who calls back, a helping neighbor, a loving child. " Harry Harlow on Islolation in childhood http://people.bu.edu/sian/harlow/isolation.html http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/03/21/monkey_love/ Good resource centre for psycology http://www.psychnet-uk.com/training_ethics/psychologists.htm(reply to this comment)

From about harlow Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 06:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Harlow was intrigued by love. He questioned the theories then current which stated that love began as a feeding bond with the mother and applied by extension to other family members. Other theories claimed that humans and other social animals lived in organized societies simply to regularize sexual contact. Starting in 1957, Harlow worked with rhesus monkeys, which are more mature at birth than humans, but like human babies show a range of emotions and need to be nursed. He took infant monkeys away from their real mothers, giving them instead two artificial mothers, one model made of wire and the other made of cloth. The wire model was outfitted with a bottle to feed the baby monkey. But the babies rarely stayed with the wire model longer than it took to get the necessary food. They clearly preferred cuddling with the softer cloth model, especially if they were scared. (When the cloth model had the bottle, they didn't go to the wire model at all.) In another study, Harlow found that young monkeys reared with live mothers and young peers easily learned to play and socialize with other young monkeys. Those with cloth mothers were slower, but seemed to catch up socially by about a year. Babies raised with real mothers but no playmates were often fearful or inappropriately aggressive. Baby monkeys without playmates or real mothers became socially incompetent, and when older, were often unsuccessful at mating. Those unsocial females that did have babies were neglectful of them. From his studies, Harlow concluded that sex alone did not drive societies, nor did mother love enable individual social relations. Rather, normal sexual and parental behavior depended on a wide array of affectional ties with peers and family early in life. (reply to this comment)

From imaginary therapy site Tuesday, December 20, 2005, 06:13 (Agree/Disagree?) http://www.imaginarytherapy.com/display/ShowJournal?moduleId=160825&creatorId=20582(reply to this comment)

From I love you! Friday, December 16, 2005, 16:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Jules, just got home now, read this and your post under Laura. You're a such beautiful person. I love you. As far as I'm concerned you're my sister! Moving On was such a stroke of incredible genius. I don't know what else to say other than I love you and hope to talk to you soon! Thank you so much for everything you have done! (reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 13:22 (Agree/Disagree?) I can totally relate to you. I'm very much the same in the above mentioned ways. It's good to know I'm not alone.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, December 16, 2005, 16:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Sometimes we need a little validation. It helps to know someone understands that even though you may not have had your body severed at the waist, getting an arm pulled of doesn't feel good either.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Friday, December 16, 2005, 11:31 (Agree/Disagree?) That was exquisitely written. You are certainly not alone in feeling the way that you do, and that can, hopefully, be a comfort of sorts, as comments such as yours are to me when I am struggling. But of course, in the end, we are, each of us, alone, and no one can bear our burdens for us. This is why it hurts me terribly every time someone declares suicide to be an act of cowardice - I tend to think that by the time an individual has used up all mental and emotional resources and takes that final step, he or she has most likely been exceedingly brave for a very long time, and often not for their own sake but for everyone else in their life. Rest in peace, all those who could not face another day.(reply to this comment)

From Bones Thursday, December 15, 2005, 23:11 (Agree/Disagree?) Umm, I didn't change my name. Ever just felt completely fucking panicked, yeah....it's like that. Oh well.(reply to this comment)

From Bones Thursday, December 15, 2005, 23:23 (Agree/Disagree?) Welcome to my soul.(reply to this comment)

From ESJ Friday, December 16, 2005, 04:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you for sharing your deepest feelings. It makes me cry, its so honest, so real, revealing your exquisitely beautiful soul. Most of us, most especially the SG's, come out of the cuilt experience split into fragments. Childhood traumas create 'freeze frames' in the psyche. The pain and accompanying 'programming' that went with it causes a part of the personality to get stuck there, and the traumatic or painful experience and internalized 'program' just keeps cycling around in the subconscious in an endless loop. Within, the young child who got beaten or demeaned or molested remains frozen in time, while the outer personality grows up and imitates adult behaviour in order to function and survive. But secretly, the wounded child never stops crying on the inside. Why? Because it was never comforted, never validated, never acknowledged or allowed to be who they really were. It haunts us like a ghost, softly wailing in the gaps between thoughts, always still there in the shadows whenever the music stops. How does one resolve this endless inner angst? By patiently, consistently being the loving, caring, parent to one's own inner wounded child. Not trying to run from it or shush it up or beat up on yourself, but not getting caught up in all the cycling thoughts about it and the 'story' and the self pity either. Instead, whenever the angst presents itself, in whatever form, on the inside you just turn and look at it directly with a listening heart and total compassion, and without any judgement or negative opinion or fear. Just as you would embrace and comfort your own distraught child, you embrace and comfort your hurting inner self, being fully present to its pain with total acceptance. As the pain arises, just become fully present to it for a few moments and don't budge from it. Fully acknowledge it and fully feel it, without getting into the 'story' or the anger or going off on a mental tangent ('cause then it can go on endlessly). Stay in your heart, not your head; just feel it, 'be there' for yourself, and after a time it will lift and resolve like a wave resloves on the shore. But this doesn't happen only once. It's an ongoing process. There will be many more waves before all the hurts of the inner child have been fully acknowledged and reintegrated. But as one does this, one finds oneself gradually becoming more self possessed and self empowered and self aware. It requires an internal commitment to love oneself enough to go through this process in order to reclaim oneself, but its worth it in the long run.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, December 16, 2005, 17:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Thank you. I feel like I closed my eye's and held my liver in front of a firing squad. Thank you, everyone, for not shooting. Better, thank you for understanding.(reply to this comment)

From Red Friday, December 16, 2005, 04:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks, that was very well expressed. You put to words what I feel to a certain degree, but always struggle to express. However morbid, I find it comforting to know that I'm not alone. I wish you the best...(reply to this comment)

from Gypsy Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) i dont condone what Ricky did, and i dont think i myself would have done that, but at the same time, i understand the reasons that made him take such actions. i mean, just put yourself in his shoes for a bit, living so close to such a freak (Berg), being enforced to believe hes some great shot, imposing others to believe your the same, (i wont keep going cuz theres to many things here to name)... i mean he was marked for life! How do u erase such a scar? You are branded for life! its not that easy, or impossible in his case, to move on with your life, no matter what u do. its like the ghosts from your past are haunting u day and night, and theres nothing u can do to obliterate them. if that was the solution he came up with or at least a way of expressing in actions his feelings inside, then... so be it! i just feel sorry for him that he wasnt able to accomplish how much he would have wished... he would have rid us of one less pervert in this world! (reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 16:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Please don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for him that he felt there was no other way. Your point is well taken. I just feel from some of the comments posted here that some view his actions like some sort of grand thing. I really wish he would have found a better way to express his anger.I do however like your point how he was forced to believe he was some sort of bigshot. I guess it can be quite an eyeopener when someone like that wakes up to the real world & finds out he is just the same as everyone else, be they the poorest beggar on the street or the person sitting next to you on the bus.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Thursday, December 15, 2005, 20:08 (Agree/Disagree?) When it comes down to it, Rick intentionally murdered a defenseless older woman. That is a crime in my book. I cannot identify with anyone who would say otherwise. What Family members fail to realize is that it was a series of criminal and abusive acts that prompted the Rick's crime. The concept of 'cause and effect' appears to be foreign to them. Had Rick had a normal childhood--I'll go so far to say that had he grown up in a regular Family Home--the chances of him committing an act of murder would have been immeasurably slimmer.(reply to this comment)

From Ralph Crayon Friday, December 16, 2005, 02:21 (Agree/Disagree?) Safe to say that they murdered him a long time before he ever considered doing what he did.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, December 16, 2005, 11:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Some knowledgeable and extremely respectable people in society consider child abuse to be a murder of the child's soul. I do not think that is meant to say the child is not committing a crime, equal and opposite perhaps in some cases, by murdering their abuser. What many people do not yet understand is that child abuse is not a one-time harm. It is a harm that lives on for the abused child. It may be that its hold is more or less vicious depending on the severity of the abuse or the sensitivity/vulnerability of the victim. It may rear its ugly head when the survivor is at his/her weakest and least able to bear it. Murder deprives the victim of their life, thus society considers it about the worst offense against another. I think that as understanding spreads (hopefully this will not be as slow as it has been thus far--the Catholic clergy child abuse scandal may have accelerated the rise of awareness), society will come to see child abuse as: depriving the victim of their life as it would have been. Of the child's life as any innocent child deserves. (reply to this comment)

From conversely Thursday, December 15, 2005, 20:47 (Agree/Disagree?) When it comes down to it, Rick was intentionally abused by older women and men when he was a defenseless younger child. That is a crime in my book. I cannot identify with anyone who would say otherwise. That is not to contradict your formulation about Ricky's crime, which I also agree with, entirely and without reservation. It was very, very wrong.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, December 16, 2005, 09:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I most certainly agree.(reply to this comment)

from aha Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 08:58 (Agree/Disagree?) Ricky spent his childhood with Berg and Zerby. Enough said. (reply to this comment)

from vixen Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 04:56 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm curious, how did you come to the conclusion that Ricky is 'revered' by ex-SGAs? (reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 08:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry if I gave that impression, I didn't mean by all. I just drew that conclusion by some of the comments I read on this site. I didn't want to label anyone. My deepest apologies if I misunderstood.(reply to this comment)

from Cant spell Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 03:11 (Agree/Disagree?) You obviously skipped more than a few word times.(I salute you) While it is true that Davidito didnt have to slave away like many of us, in otherways he had it far worse. Far, far worse. You must not remember "Dads" talk to him when he was delirious. Or the various sexual experiments that were perpetrated on him. Or the innumerable other indignaties he was forced to endure. My feelings about his situation can be summed up thus. Think of "DAD" as a atomic bomb (he would like that). I my opinion Davidito was at ground zero with nothing to buffer him from the poision of our deranged "prophet". While we also suffered from "Gods excipulum" (berg) we were shelterd to a lesser or greater degre by the fundumental "goodness" of some people. I believe that most people in and out of the family have a certian respect for humanity to greater and lesser degres. Though part of a nefarious cult, many would still subconsiouly hesitate to go to the lengths familar to berg. Of course, there is also the flipside. Some no doubt went further. In this situation, I dont doubt that some had it worse than Ricky did. (reply to this comment)

from Eva St John Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 03:07 (Agree/Disagree?) Just a thought, Otter. Were you photographed as a young child being groped and molestd by several adult women? And were those photographs then published in a book (the Davidito book) and distributed to thousands of people all around the world to look at repeatedly over many years and supossedly 'learn from'? And did you live with a mad prophet in the room next door to you who drank himself stupid and slept with and molested your young female relatives, and were you forced to do the same? I could go on and on right through Ricky's life, but I don't think any of us can judge the impact living with someone like Berg and Zerby had on an innocent child. Look at what they did to Mene. Everybody has their breaking point. I don't condone what Ricky did, but I certainly understand what could have driven him to it. I don't see anyone 'revering' him here. I think most of us are just heartbroken and sorry, (as we are for all those SG's who've felt they couldn't go on and 'checked out' in the past), and we don't want to see it happen to anyone else. (reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 03:25 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not trying to undermine what he went through. I myself have been abused in almost every way you can imagine. But also I still had to go out & beg for money. I not saying I'm better or the thousands of other kids that it happened to. He was given whatever he needed. We on the other hand had to scrape together to make ends meet. I traveled a lot when I was in the cult & I saw so many abused kids. I understand that he was photographed & he has the most proof of what happened to us. I just think that if he had a little more self-control he could done a world of good in court. He could have been a real hero. You see if you view life those that have had it the hardest are usually the ones that can control themselves the most. The military make as hard as they can on people, why, to teach them how to remain calm in difficult situations. That's how you can tell if someone has gone through training. The same holds true for people who have suffered true abuse, if they can control themselves than you know that they weren't able to express or defend themselves. You see, it's a built in mechanism in the abused to swallow the pain & point it inwards as only in doing that can they survive. You a truly abused individual was never allowed the chance to fight back & as they grow up every time they try to fight back the abuse gets worse. Thus in essence they become the silent fighters in themselves. When someone hasn't really gone through terrible abuse, when they are faced with a hard time or something they think is wrong they lash out horribly. Why because they aren't used to controlling their anger. they revert back to the way they always got their way through a fit, violence or whatever worked for them in the past.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, December 15, 2005, 18:46 (Agree/Disagree?) I admire your obvious thoughfulness in coming up with this theory, but I am afraid you have a simplistic notion of trauma and its effects. Human beings are not a simple sum or subtraction.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 13:30 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think anyone has the right to say their view is the best. This was meant as a try to see how others view this point, not as what is right & who is better. I seen many different psycologists, including the best in a number of countries, as well as ones the deal especially with cult victims. They all defer in their theories as to the effect & problems of trauma. I would refrain from calling someone simple minded for expressing a theory. (reply to this comment)

From Friday, December 16, 2005, 18:48 (Agree/Disagree?) I would refrain from putting words in someone's mouth. The comment did not call you simple minded.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Thursday, December 15, 2005, 06:47 (Agree/Disagree?) I think I see where you're coming from in saying what you did in your article. I'm just not so sure about what you said here. First you say, "a truly abused individual was never allowed the chance to fight back & as they grow up every time they try to fight back the abuse gets worse. Thus in essence they become the silent fighters in themselves." Then you say, "When someone hasn't really gone through terrible abuse, when they are faced with a hard time or something they think is wrong they lash out horribly." While I'm sure the above scenarios are plausible, it seems studies such as the one described in this book (http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=2&Cat=43&ID=3329) conclude that it is people who suffered horrible abuse in their childhood that "lash out horribly". I hear what you're saying about Rick not having had to pound the pavements like we did, but then again, if given the option between a Victor Camp lifestyle like "Teen Training" and going out videoing 4 or 5 times a week for 7 years, you can bet I would have picked the latter in a heartbeat.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 08:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Who is to say that I didn't also go through those Teen & victor camps. And not just me but hundreds of others(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Thursday, December 15, 2005, 11:29 (Agree/Disagree?) I'm not saying Rick was the only one who went through "Teen Training". I'm just making a comparison between the two forms of abuse. I myself was in a Victor Camp and spent many years pounding the pavements. Both were hell, but I would have picked fundraising over a Victor Camp any day.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 11:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I guess I would have to second you.(reply to this comment)

From Thursday, December 15, 2005, 16:52 (Agree/Disagree?) My humble opinion is that one of Ricky's problems was precisely that he was so sheltered and did not learn the peculiar resourcefulness that you learn pounding the pavement and the ability to swallow your pride to provision/beg/sell something odd, and what have you. In some of our cases, that ability to "improvise" helped us get by despite the emotional turmoil of leaving.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 13:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Exactly my point!!!! I couldn't have said it better. Thanks!!(reply to this comment)

From the poster above Friday, December 16, 2005, 18:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Except that you see it as making him more of a spoiled brat. I don't. I see it as making him less equipped for life after leaving the cult and being rejected by those who should have been on his side and wanted his well-being, and to that extent, making him in an odd way more deprived of a certain thing than the rest of us "field" kids.(reply to this comment)

From Eva St John Thursday, December 15, 2005, 04:32 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't think it was as much a question of 'self control' with Ricky, as it was a case of life-long damage and depression, leading to a sense of hopelessness and unresolved rage. It would have been wonderful if Ricky had been able to prosecute his abusers in court, but one (Berg) is already dead, and all the rest are in hiding and have an army of thousands of unpaid drones willing to do anything to defend, hide, lie for, and cover for them. They made it virtually impossible for Ricky to find and prosecute them. Unfortunately depression can make such challenges seem like impassable mountains, and people can make some very bad decisions when they're feeling depressed and hopeless. (ie: I got sucked into TF as a depressed 16 year old). You said, "...those that have had it the hardest are usually the ones that can control themselves the most..." Not always. True, those who've had it tough tend to have much more endurance and can usually cope with hardship a lot better than others who've had a relatively easy life, but not indefinitely. And true, the 'reaction' to abusive treatment or painful situations is often turned inward, but that's not really 'self control', it's supression. We can be conditioned to suppress and internalize our reactions on an ongoing basis, like we were in TF (and is what often happens in the army), but supression has it's limits. Every internal wound becomes a supressed pocket of pain, like a beach ball full of air being held down under the surface of the water. If one has a lot of 'beach balls', it takes a lot of subconscious, internal energy to keep them all held down under the surface of one's life. Internal pain has many ways of trying to surface so that it can be acknowldeged and healed, which can create a lot of internal stress, and this gets reflected in one's outer life in some way. Addictive behaviour such as workaholism, substance abuse, food or love addiction, repeated thrill-seeking, etc, are all sure signs of suppressed pain. It's a way of trying to run from it, avoid it, and keep all the 'beach balls' under the surface. But sooner or later, one runs out of energy to hold them all down, or a stressful or traumatic situation can trigger a few beach balls to suddenly surface in some kind of uncontrollable display of emotion or behaviour or overwhelming depression or rage. That's why I support the idea of every SG whose been through painful experiences in their past getting all the help they can to gradually, gently, deal with the 'beach balls' before it all becomes overwhelming, like it did with Ricky. 'Enduring' is only a temporary measure for emergencies, never to be used indefinitely. It doesn't work. Internalizing the stress or the pain is turning the pain in on oneself and continuing to abuse oneself. Finding the right person - (usually a professional therapist) - to talk it all out with, and learning methods of self-psychology and self-healing is imperative for relative wholeness and internal freedom to come about. (reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 09:03 (Agree/Disagree?) First of all I apologize for presenting my point of view as fact. That goes against all that I stand for. I am of the opinion that what we know now as fact is the view for this era in history & most poeple accept these views as fact & think that they now all. If we were to look back at history, we would see that at everytime in history people thought they were all knowing & their view on the world was absolute. For example, how many scientists won the Nobel prize last century for their theory of how the sun works, and in so doing disproving the previous one. Also the science of the mind is far from perfected & what they knew 50 years ago has moved on. We are always disvovering new things & in so doing proving that we all need to keep an open mind. As so many cutures & knowledge have been lost because people thought that their opinion of the world was absolute law & that they had the right to kill or destroy anyone who opposed them. All that to say thank you so much for your point of view. I will give it a lot of consideration.(reply to this comment)

From Friday, December 16, 2005, 11:38 (Agree/Disagree?) You say: "Also the science of the mind is far from perfected & what they knew 50 years ago has moved on." But how much have you even investigated about the science of mind as it is now up to now? I do not mean this to knock you, but to inquire how informed your opinion (which you are of course entirely entitled to, whether more or less knowledgeable) is on the subject you called "science of the mind." More specifically, how about trauma? How about the not even nascent science of what happens to cult child abuse trauma survivors?(reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 13:34 (Agree/Disagree?) We are always learning. I seen first hand. Have you?(reply to this comment)

From Fish Thursday, December 15, 2005, 08:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Yep, gotta get help with those balls.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Thursday, December 15, 2005, 09:08 (Agree/Disagree?) My I inquire as to which balls, mine or yours?(reply to this comment)

From Fish Friday, December 16, 2005, 15:31 (Agree/Disagree?) What your having a ball problem too?(reply to this comment)

From Otter Friday, December 16, 2005, 16:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes. They are a bit red & puffy & do they itch. I'm looking for a solution. Any ideas?(reply to this comment)

From ESJ Friday, December 16, 2005, 19:44 (Agree/Disagree?) Hmm...sounds like a case of crabs....try kerosene...that'll do the trick...Tee hee.(reply to this comment)

From Otter Saturday, December 17, 2005, 01:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Thar it worked. No more itch just bright red. I'm afraid to smoke.(reply to this comment)