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Getting Real : Speak your peace
re: www.MyConclusion.com | from ErikMagnusLehnsher - Wednesday, January 19, 2005
accessed 2569 times My thoughts after visiting www.MyConclusion.com [It's late and this rambled on much longer than I thought it would but I thought I would still post it for what it's worth as MyConclusion.com didn't appear to accepting posts from former members, yet]
www.MyConclusion.com
I just looked at the above site which appears to be largely in reaction the Anderson Cooper segment on CNN the other night. I also looked at http://www.mikeandnina.net. It looks like The Family is clearly in "Persecution" mode and has circled the wagons. I understand their concerns about having their homes raided and their kids traumatized. I would note that James Penn made it clear that he doesn't believe abuse is currently condoned in TF and doesn't want to initiate a witch-hunt of any kind.
My situation: Joined TF in 1987 at 13 with parents. I Left at 24 after 11 years in North and South America.
I never had sex with an adult while I was a teenager in TF. I did however have friends in TF who were young teenagers and did have sex with adults but I never witnessed this. Do I believe their accounts? Absolutely. Did they regard this as abuse at the time? For the most part...No.
Do I think children and young people are in danger of sexual abuse in the Family right now?
Probably not much more than kids growing up on an Amish or Mennonite farm. Though there are probably a few who deep down believe that “God’s law of love” would permit it.
Do I think that Daniel's statement that 1000's of kids were abused in the Family is accurate?
I know is sounds "Clintonesque" but I think the dramatic difference of opinion on sites like Movingon.org and Myconclusion.com is based on how the word "abuse" is interpreted. If you define abuse as children under the age of 18 being involved sexually in any way with an adult, I think participants in both forums would agree that most likely at least one thousand children were abused between 1970 and 1987. If they stepped out of "Persecution" mode for a minute and were honest, I think they would acknowledge that children’s being sexually active was not the result of a few misguided adults but based on the doctrine of the group and clearly permitted and promoted by leadership.
I think TF has had a difficult time dealing with this issue for a few reasons:
1) The fact that such a huge mistake was made by the Endtime Prophets and mouthpieces of God could shake the faith of many in organization where leadership at the highest levels has never been elected but rather ordained by God. Re-writing history is more convenient.
2) Concern that the group would be dispersed as a result of most of the group’s top leadership being criminally charged.
3) Especially during the 70's and 80's members of the group were taught that they were God's "special" children and therefore had certain liberties that other Christians didn't have and therefore it was acceptable to lie about these types of things to outsiders because their lowered state of enlightenment would cause them to perceive these things as evil rather than pure. Questioning basic doctrinal beliefs publicly or even to your friends was never accepted.
A couple of articles on MyConclusion.com challenge participants of MovingOn.org to prove that this abuse occurred...to "put up or shut up".
The 1000 number would be difficult to verify for a few reasons:
1) Many of us who have since left the group have attempted to "move on" and only participate in discussions forums because of the anonymity provided. As mentioned above, I was never sexually abused but even if I had been, I would not want to come out publicly with this information. I have started a new life with a semi-successful career and I am raising children that I hope will never know that TF ever existed so such action on my part would not just affect me but my family.
2) Those that are still in TF may not look back on these experiences as entirely negative or may have managed to put the abuse behind them or apply a "Roman 8:28" approach. Honestly, people's perception of their past often has a lot do with their present situation. If people are happy and leading productive lives either in TF or out, such events don't usually receive a lot of their attention or focus. If someone is struggling or in close contact with people who are having a difficult time with life in general it's expected that they would be more introspective and try to determine the cause or root of many of their problems or the difficulties they are facing. In some cases the signs point toward an episode(s) of abuse that they experienced. All that to say: Some people can somehow put it in the past.
3) It's been estimated in Family literature that as many as 100,000 adults/children have been members of TF for some time. Many of these people do not remain connected after leaving and there's not one central point of communication that all these former members access.
So is it likely that a declaration that "I was sexually abused in TF" would be signed by 1000 people? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that it didn't happen and Family leadership has not been held accountable sufficiently by their members or law enforcement.
I think what sometimes gets lost in the vitriol and combative statements on our site as well as MyConclusion.com is the fact that most participants who have suffered abuse or seen abuse are not looking for a fight but rather a formal apology from the leadership of the group. Not a "We're sorry a few adults misinterpreted the letters and some abuse occurred" but an honest acknowledgement that they fucked up and abuse occurred on a large scale. This doesn't even take into account the whole "Victor Camp ERA" (some of the extremities of which they disavow in the letters but were clearly involved in setting up). They should have resigned years ago and handed over the leadership of the organization to members not involved in that type of abuse. I think their unwillingness to sincerely and truthfully acknowledge this merely adds insult to injury and creates a huge credibility problem for Family leadership both within the organization and for those of us on the outside looking in.
In Claire Borowick's statement regarding Ricky she said: "The fact is, he wasn’t really interested in substantiating his claims, which is the case of this core of detractors—their stated goal is to cause wide-scale damage to the group and its members of all ages. The true intent is to receive attention from world-wide media and law enforcement to take sweeping actions that would impact every Family member.”
I think the overwhelming majority of posts on this site do not advocate wide-scale damage to the group and its members of all ages though one of the stated purposes of this site is for SGA's to freely vent and openly share their opinions and grievances. In my opinion the majority of Family members are probably good, sincere law-abiding people and I don't wish them any ill.
I think that leaving TF was the best decision I ever made and I hope that others choose to move on with their lives as well but I don't believe there are many of us who wish sweeping law enforcement action against your rank-and-file member of TF (though I have to admit that historically it has required "persecution" for "The Lord to show TF to adjust many of their policies.") But let's face it: If the group suddenly disbanded you don't think some of the members would find even stranger groups to associate themselves with? In my opinion, the organization does not represent a danger to society as it is currently setup. But even if the top leadership of TF never made another mistake after 1988 (or 90's with some of the Victor Camps) they are still carrying way to much baggage to be trusted.
In Mike Moore's Letter to the Editor of the LA Times he writes:
"If there was a chance in hell that my three wonderful children would be harmed, neglected or abused by anyone in The Family, I would not hesitate for a moment to discontinue my association with and involvement in The Family. If anyone laid a finger on one of my children to abuse or mistreat them, I’d have the cops on their back faster than you can say “911”. Anybody who knows me will attest to this and anybody who says otherwise doesn’t have a clue."
I have no doubt that the above statement it true. I know Mike and he's good guy. Good husband...good dad...sincere, good all around person. If the police knocked on his door, I would be quick to defend his character. However, I do think that the group he works with does not deserve his loyalty and dedication or trust and I think he'll eventually come to that conclusion without any assistance from Anderson Cooper or the LA Times...or you or me for that matter.
I haven't participated much on this site though I have read quite a bit and am certainly in no position to try to represent anyone's thoughts but my own but I thought I would throw them out there for what they are worth.
I met Ricky briefly a couple of times years ago and he was a meek, quiet nice kid. I might have briefly met Angela and if memory serves she had a kind of kooky "I have been in WS a long time" way about her but was nonetheless very nice and I am deeply grieved and disturbed that things ended the way they did for her. I offer my sincerest condolences to all the friends and relatives of both of them. I hope that Ricky finds the peace that he longed for and that in some way this will eventually bring peace to other former or current members of TF.
My thanks to administrators of this site. |
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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from Jaded
Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 22:58
(Agree/Disagree?)
heres a lark, if you ever wanted a reference on the fams education level, and that the BS is still alive and well today: here it is... damn I can almost hear myself at that age saying these exact words... its quite creepy, like a page from "the manchurian candidate"...
2/1/2005
The Grooviest Lifestyle of Them All
My name is Cristina, I’m 16 years old, born and raised in Colombia. My parents have both lived in The Family for over 25 years now, and have raised my brothers, sisters and me as true missionaries, for which I’m not ashamed!
When I heard the news about what happened with Ricky and Angela, I thought: How can somebody whom, throughout his whole life in The Family, received attention, unconditional love, and all that they imparted to him, end his life like that, killing someone and then taking his own life too? And the worst of it all is that they want to make us believe that he was the victim? What a stupid and absurd lie. You know what? Nothing! I’m not going to say it since I am a Christian—I mean a REAL ONE! It makes me fume to know that there are people who are so terribly slandering MY FAMILY when we all know that it’s the best place to be. The Family International is the best group in the world and has THE GROOVIEST lifestyle of them all!!
I am very grateful for all I have been taught since everything I know is thanks to The Family. I thank my parents for all the truth they have taught me because if it wasn’t for them I wouldn’t be in The Family. I don’t, for even one second of my life, regret being a missionary because I know the Lord has called and chosen me for a reason! I am ready and willing to give my ALL for Jesus who gave His life and blood for me—for all of us. I think it’s the least I can do for Him!
I also want to thank Mama and Peter for having the faith for this Family because, if the Lord still has us here it’s due to the fact that we are, and will continue, accomplishing great things! Naturally, the devil is furious and is using you “detractors” to try and hurt The Family. But to me, it’s like water off a duck’s back. I know there is no truth in your lies so, why should they affect me? Besides, I’m not the one who’s gonna have to give an account before God for everything you’ve said. You’re all gonna go through that on your lonesome and you’re gonna get one major shock when it finally hits you (like, should’a happened yesterday!! HELLOOOO!) how duped and rotten you are for believing the devil’s STUPID lies! I mean, c’mon guys! What an insult to your own intelligence. Haven’t you a drop of respect for your own persons?!?! Like we say here in Colombia, “Tienen lo que pone la gallina—HUEVO!!”
Well, I’ve at least got to do my part and stand up for my convictions and what I believe in, ‘cause I’m not gonna let a bunch of people like you guys come and try to brainwash me with a load of horrible and senseless lies about The Family. You all don’t trouble me in the least and besides, I’m on the winning team so I haven’t a thing to worry about! You, on the other hand, do!! So give up this futile mission of yours. What a joke! You all trying to brainwash us with your putrid lies and then accusing us of your own offence! You know, it’s really not gonna work. Just give it up guys! Every single (and married) one of us who are in The Family, are so because we want it that way. None of this “manipulation” or “cajoling” s__t!! I pity you and pray that God opens your eyes to the “giant pickle” you’re all getting yourselves into by messing with His work. Don’t you remember what happens to the people who mess around with God’s eyes?
For me it’s an absolute privilege to be a part of this Family and I’m very thankful for all those of you who have been willing to give your lives to Jesus and The Family because without you all The Family would cease to exist.
As far as education in The Family well, it’s the best and I’m sold on it. We young people are being trained to be The Family of the future and I have had training in a lot of areas that many kids my age out in the system don’t even have a clue about. I am convinced that this is the life that I want and choose to live and I am ready to fight for it ‘till the end!!
No matter what you say, you WILL NOT CHANGE MY MENTALITY TOWARDS THE FAMILY—EVER!!
(reply to this comment)
|  From Baxter
Friday, February 11, 2005, 05:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Karen Zerby is the Warmest, Kindest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life........
Karen Zerby is the Warmest, Kindest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life........
Karen Zerby is the Warmest, Kindest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life........
THE GROOVIEST lifestyle........
THE GROOVIEST lifestyle........
THE GROOVIEST lifestyle........
(reply to this comment) |
| | From cocomojo
Wednesday, February 02, 2005, 08:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
She's a Christian, "A real one". And I'm not, really not.
As we like to say in the rest of the world, darling, you've been snorting a little too much of your country's main export. And no I don't mean coffee. Hey leave a little for me huh?
And what's this about us all being in a pickle? Seriously, a pickle? THE GROOVIEST? Here, let me take my MegaNeedle 2005 and poke your little 60's bubble there. Now now don't cry, it's for your own good. Just ask Jesus.
What I find most impressive about you Darling, is that you've magically managed to live every lifestyle availible, at the ripe old age of 16, and then made this brilliant decision that yours is the best. Which it must be, with a that Yak hanging around!
Munchkin, you were not even produced as sperm yet while all this was happening. Wake up and smell the cafe, the Colombian cafe!
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| | | | | | | | | | | from Jaded
Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 22:17
(Agree/Disagree?)
A good laugh anyone?
repost fom myconfusion.com
Jenny Fisher Speaks Out
Jenny Fisher 22 years old presently missionary with the Family International in Mexico
Hi, I’m 22 years old and have been in the Family International all my life and I’m proud of it. I love the Family and all that it stands for. I’m super happy to be privileged to have been born into it, because when I see life outside of the Family nothing interests me and it all just seems boring and monotonous to be living life day in and day out doing the same thing. Being like everyone else and just copying everyone else because it’s the “in” thing to do at that moment. Also life outside the Family is so selfish as everyone is just looking out for themselves and has to have their own personal everything.
Life in the Family rocks because we have originality and we have a purpose for living and the best goal in the entire world to bring others to know the Lord. We have a spiritual depth that wherever we go in the world we can connect on with other Family members who are like minded. It’s not boring frivolous shallow conversations that we partake of, but we actually talk about things that dig deeper into the soul and speak from the heart. The Family International has a loving caring environment.
I have never been abused in my whole life in growing up in the Family neither have I seen others being abused. My parents took very good care of us kids and I’d say I have the best parents ever. I come from a large family, 12 children, and I’m thankful that my parents had the faith to have us all as I can’t imagine life without one of my brothers and sisters. What I fail to understand is why some people who have left the Family just can’t understand that I have chosen of my own free will to be here and I’m not dumb, naïve, or brainwashed. I’ve seen what the world has to offer and “No thanks”.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from myconclusion
Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 14:31
 (Agree/Disagree?)
What they don't really get is that their leaders are criminals. All their posturing does nothing to change the fact that the leaders committed and counselled others to commit a multitude of criminal acts.
So these posters can keep practicing their religion all they want. No onw will interfere with them. But many many victims, the media, and law enforcement are going to go after the leaders and the members that committed criminal acts.
I hope they start dealing with this fact. This is not persecution of a group, but dealing with specific criminal activity by specific individuals.
Mr Moon went to jail for things he did. It has happened before. It can be done.
(reply to this comment)
| | | | from surfer
Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 12:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
I think everyone on myconclusion.com should brush up on some of mama's moron missives that talk about how bad it is to pass the blame/buck for something bad that happened. Any of the many series on honesty should probably be recommended reading too.
(reply to this comment)
| from
Monday, January 24, 2005 - 22:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anita Roselle Speaks Out
window.document.getElementById('post-134').parentNode.className = 'adhesive_post';
I’ve been thinking a lot over the last couple weeks about life and the meaning of it, trying to find some semblance of surety that my existence has counted for something. Because I could have been the innocent woman killed that night, and as things stand now I would have been awfully unprepared. Life isn’t something we can make bets on. It’s a privilege not a guarantee, here today and gone tomorrow, but when tomorrow comes I don’t plan on being ashamed with how I spent my life. I might have wasted the first half floating in lukewarm uncertainty, but I won’t take this attack on my faith and family any longer, enough of hiding my head in the sand and letting others take the rap for their convictions, if it’s the last thing I do, I will speak out.
This isn’t about Angela Smith, the victim, who I did not know, nor is it about Ricky Rodriguez who I met only once several years ago. I don’t feel it’s my place to try to make sense of what happened and why. This is about me and who I am.
I am a Family member.
I am a Professional.
I am not ashamed of my upbringing or my beliefs.
I am proud of my life and how my parents raised me.
I am not a brainwashed robot who spent a deprived childhood in a depraved
religious cult.
I am an individual.
I am a voice. Just one among many, a voice that oddly enough is echoing the same thing our detractors are demanding. JUSTICE.
Not because I’ve been “abused", “horribly neglected", or “wronged” in any way, believe me if I felt I was in anyway mistreated during my life in the Family I would not hesitate to let the world know. I’m not one to suffer in silence.
What I want is justice from a society where a lie gets to print almost instantly while the truth stays shut up in the bottom of a file cabinet somewhere in the editor’s office. What I want is the freedom to say my piece and get the same amount of airtime as those attacking me and my faith. What I want is to wake up in the morning with the satisfaction that I am doing more then most people my age to make the world a better place.
I don’t know every hostile ex-member and their reasons for doing what their doing and frankly I don’t want to, but I do know Daniel Roselle. You see, he’s my brother. I don’t hate him, in fact up until several days ago I was content to have him lead his life and me mine and steer clear of all differences of opinion regarding our lifestyles. But my tolerance is over.
I won’t stand by and see my parents, the most loving people in my world, viciously maligned because of their beliefs. I respect them immensely for giving their lives to raise their kids with morals and values in a world that seems to have lost all such once basic ideals. To me my family is more then just the people you’re forced to grow up with, they’re your life guard, your support system, and the ones who have seen you at your worst and still love you.
Four of my older siblings have left the Family, I love and respect each of them and what their doing in their lives. All I ask of them in return is: let me live my life, love my God, and do my best in what little time I have to change my part of the world. Stop trying to change my mind and shake my convictions. My feet are firmly planted and will not be moved.
I’M A LIVE ONE.
Anita Roselle is a second-generation member of the Family International.
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(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | From Joe H
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 12:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
Is anyone else getting flashbacks from that Simpsons where Homer joins the Movementarians cult and Lisa says "Do you think you might have been brainwashed?" Homer replies "Lisa, I have not been brainwashed ... KILL THE GIRL. KILL THE GIRL" They all say "I am not a cult drone" then proceed to drone on with cult babble and non-sequitir cliches. A mind is a terrible thing to give to Jesus for breakfast. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From what I remember
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 10:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
This is really sad, especially considering that you are so young and probably weren’t around to see what was going on back then. I happened to live with your parents at the Saltillo School, and I cannot say that I remember them as being the “loving supporting” people you claim that they are.
I can still remember the time your dad came into the Jett girl’s room. God knows what the activity of the moment happened to be (although it was somewhere around quiet time/get out) and he was really angry about something. Turns out this poor boy M was being foolish and rebellious. Your dad started off by talking to him and then began slapping him across the face. He would say “answer me young man” and M would say “Yes sir” and he’d get slapped again along with a “don’t talk back to me”. This while all of the rest of us had to stand there and watch and try to look as neutral as possible.
I don’t remember anything quite as horrible about your mom. The only thing I remember real clearly about her was that she used to get upset if the JETT girls picked up the laundry buckets or the dining room benches as that sort of activity would “damage our ovaries”. I guess it’s never too early to start protecting your baby making machines
“ Not because I’ve been “abused", “horribly neglected", or “wronged” in any way, believe me if I felt I was in anyway mistreated during my life in the Family I would not hesitate to let the world know. I’m not one to suffer in silence. “That’s a pretty strong statement. Not to say that I think you were abused, I guess you don’t happen to thing that eating food that was next to garbage for a couple of years as a toddler (that’s how old you were then) is being mistreated. Ah, how I remember the TYJ soup and the wonders of plain chaff oatmeal. I must stop reminiscing, it might make me want to go back to the good old days……………..NOT!
See, I’m not maligning your parents because of their religious beliefs; I’m just bringing up something that happened. Just because you weren’t in the same room doesn’t mean it didn’t.
Oh, who cares, it's not like you're actually going to log on here and read any of this.(reply to this comment) |
| | From yes
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 11:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yup, sadly I was in that JETT girls room, I was 11. We had been practicing a skit to do for the Sunday fellowship (the good old Candina skit). C was one of our JETT shepherds and was all of 15 or 16 years old. Ado (your sweet daddy) asked her how it was going, and she mentioned to him that M had been a bit disrespectfull that day in practice. We were all in bed when Ado came in and told us all to get out of bed and sit in a circle around the floor, then the JETT boys all came in and sat with us. We were all in our PJs. Then Ado appeared dragging M in and told us that this is what happens to foolish disrespectfull people. I don't remember how many times he slapped M but I remember just praying that he would stop. M was one of the skinniest little JETT boys we had Ado was practically holding him up as he slapped him accross the face each time, so he wouldnt fall over.
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| | From yes
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 11:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yup, sadly I was in that JETT girls room, I was 11. We had been practicing a skit to do for the Sunday fellowship (the good old Candina skit). C was one of our JETT shepherds and was all of 15 or 16 years old. Ado (your sweet daddy) asked her how it was going, and she mentioned to him that M had been a bit disrespectfull that day in practice. We were all in bed when Ado came in and told us all to get out of bed and sit in a circle around the floor, then the JETT boys all came in and sat with us. We were all in our PJs. Then Ado appeared dragging M in and told us that this is what happens to foolish disrespectfull people. I don't remember how many times he slapped M but I remember just praying that he would stop. M was one of the skinniest little JETT boys we had Ado was practically holding him up as he slapped him accross the face each time, so he wouldnt fall over.
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| | From Bull
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 11:39
(Agree/Disagree?)
Yup, sadly I was in that JETT girls room. We had been practicing a skit to do for the Sunday fellowship (the good old Candina skit). C was one of our JETT shepherds and was all of 15 or 16 years old. Ado (your sweet daddy) asked her how it was going, and she mentioned to him that M had been a bit disrespectfull that day in practice. We were all in bed when Ado came in and told us all to get out of bed and sit in a circle around the floor, then the JETT boys all came in and sat with us. We were all in our PJs. Then Ado appeared dragging M in and told us that this is what happens to foolish disrespectfull people. I don't remember how many times he slapped M but I remember just praying that he would stop. M was one of the skinniest little JETT boys we had Ado was practically holding him up as he slapped him accross the face each time, so he wouldnt fall over.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From almost 30 as well
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 07:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
dude!
we are NOT trying to shake any beliefs here! we are just looking for some justice. no one is saying that ALL Family members were abusers, but those who WERE definitely need to face up to what they did.
so those who have never experienced abuse, just be happy you didn't but don't say it never happened!
it saddens me to see someone not even willing to accept what her own brother is saying as the truth....
i am at loss for words here....(reply to this comment) |
| | From Daiel Roselle
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 06:33
(Agree/Disagree?)
MY conclusion: "Was you there Charlie?" Anita is 17...Making her about what...O years old in 86? I'm almost 30. One must not speak of what they have no knowledge. With respect to my friend Mike Moore: I have no doubt that he would protect his children against abuse. But why should the fact that he is not a pedophile prevent me from seeking justice from those who were? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 06:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
The thing is You can't use religion to defend a criminal act(s). It doesn't stand up in court. "Your Honour, I sexually abused my daughter but God told Berg and he told me it was right"
How do you think God, if he exists at all, would feel knowing children were being abused in his name?
Does it not say in the bible that you have to obey the law of the land? Thankfully in this land children
are mean't to be free from the whims of thoughtless, selfish and abusive people. Hence the law against sex with children.
TF teaches that this is in fact a ad law because it "limits them in the spirit" Or Limits their "right" to do what they please.
I agree there should be limits on what you can do to a child, do you? (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From loch
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 07:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Sadly, she will never read your replies to her post, because, as much as the Family brags that their young people have "minds of their own" they still do not alow access to "the other side of the story" for fear it would weaken their young "strong" faith.
What I want to know is, how can you claim to have strong beliefs in something, when it's all you've ever known?(reply to this comment) |
| | From ??
Monday, January 24, 2005, 23:51
(Agree/Disagree?)
You're a WHAT?
Once again, young one, our beef is not with you but with the older generation that raised us. You are certainly welcome to continue in what ever train of thought (or thoughtlessness) you are comfortable in; but dont insult us by denying that what happened, happened. To date the head-in-the-sand defense has never actually worked. I am wondering though, how is it that you're a professional?? and what is it that you consider yourself "professional" at?? (By definition it means being paid to do what you do, BTW) I am glad that your parents are there for you now. By all accounts they were not there for your older siblings; and for most of us our parents were not there for us. We are not attacking you or your choices, we are simply looking for redress for the wrongs we suffered at the hands of your leaders.
Please do understand that however "objective" you may feel you are being, there is no way you can see from our side, for you see it takes many years of not reading the "word" daily to accomplish this...(reply to this comment) |
| | from virgin sacrifice
Monday, January 24, 2005 - 20:36
(Agree/Disagree?)
I don't think that there is much physical and sexual abuse in TF now. The thing that gets me raving mad about is the fact that they discourage abstinence strongly. Labeling it "selfish". You would think that missionaries and people that are giving their lives to help others would choose to put away distractions such as pre-marital sex. But I guess kids is what keeps you so busy that you have no time for anything else but focusing on teaching your children to be the best little cultites they can be. I have younger sisters in TF and I don't want them having kids at 16, I don't want the uncles counting down to the day the are "of age". god forbid our teenage sisters be guilty of "withholding" what is in thier power to give.
(reply to this comment)
| From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Monday, January 24, 2005, 20:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
We both agree there's isn't much abuse now in TF. Regarding abstinence, that's going to a rather tough sale for people either in or out of the group. I suppose there are some people who make their journey along the road of abstinence...but they usually join monastieries rather than sex cults.
As far the as birth control I share your concerns. The most disturbing thought of all is that these young ladies just reaching 21 would feel a religious compulsion to not to "withhold" from a middle-aged man. I can't even begin to do the subject justice...(reply to this comment) |
| | from Jules
Monday, January 24, 2005 - 20:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
There was something oddly familiar about this domain name and I just remembered what it was. Here in Canada a web site was launched called mychoice.ca. It was set up by the tobacco industry to "advocate" for smoker's rights.
(reply to this comment)
| From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Monday, January 24, 2005, 21:06
(Agree/Disagree?)
Pretty ironic.
I certainly don't begrudge the posters on that site the right to speak out and defend their choices. It is of some concern to me that there is such a prevalent misperception among the posters that people are out to attack their lifestyle choices when it's their leadership that it really under fire.
A paradox is obviously par for the course with TF, but I still can't figure out how tomorrow's Heaven's Girls and Boys and spiritual warriors are so vulnerable that any open and civil debate with former members is lethal to their spiritual health.
If they permitted posting at that site, I would welcome the open communication with them. Reading that site is like watching a court case where a non-english speaking witness is called to the stand to testify about his crooked landlord who has been overcharging tenants for sub-quality living conditions and he drones on and on in Spanish for 5 hours about how much he loves America and can live wherever he wants and takes good care of his kids. It would be funny if it weren't so sad...
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| | | | | from Oddman
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 23:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
I checked out that website, www.myconclusion.com
Is TF telling people to put posts there or something? Ricky stated his reasoning pretty clearly in his last message. Nowhere in that footage did Ricky say he grew up in a loving environment, and that the following murder would have nothing to do with what he experienced as a kid. He said quite the contrary.
The current members of TF who have put up those comments are murdering Ricky. They are killing his last voice. They are trying to re-write his last will. TF took Ricky's life as a child, as a young man. TF is in part, responsible for Ricky's state of mind when he took his Angela's life, and then his own. Is that not enough? What kind of perverse satisfaction will they obtain from murdering his last message, and perversing memory of him?
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| from info
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 22:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
for any one interested the contact info for the person who put up the site (as a matter of public record) is:
www.myconclusion.com
Daniel Johnson
310 S Twin Oaks Valley RD
Ste 107-287
92078, San Marcos CA
US
+1.9512948078
dan@djohnson.info
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| from
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 20:45
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wow, I went on the above website, which I had never been on before, and was not surprised to see that it was all current "Family" members who were speaking out. I clicked on a button that said "Family International" which brought me directly to their site and I looked everywhere to see if they had written anything on there about Ricky and/or Angela's death and saw nothing! Then I typed in the search bar his name as well as Davidito, flirty-fishing and a few others which all came up as zero finds. There IS a picture of Ricky as a little boy in David Berg's lap, though, with what looks like Techi. Unbelievable! On a site about their organization, not a word about all this.
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| from Anita
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 19:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Very well written!! Bravo!! Thanks for taking the time to do that, it was well worth reading!
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| from Death on Sale
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 08:47
(Agree/Disagree?)
There’s nothing more evil than corrupted good. And yes, the family is evil. The fact that there are some genuinely good people in the family only intensifies my abhorrence for the evil it represents. I can’t say I’m the enemy of every single family member. Growing up I seem to have had poor tastes in friends, as all of them are still in. What are the chances of that? I was good friends with the Cros of our area, I lived with the VSs for 2 years. Some of them I honestly believe were, and to the best of my knowledge still are, good people. This is what sickens me. The fact that the vile core of the family deliberately shields itself with innocent albeit misguided people. The fact that when I looked at my friends I could see their good nature at war with whatever the “word” had said. They weren’t fighting the devil; they were fighting their own consciences. The enormity of this perversion of good sickens me. While the stupid sheep pass on and are punished the true shepherds are busy enjoying their spoils in some anonymous mansion. Their cowardice is revolting. I hate to think on these things, as the result is depression. The time has come to end this vile cancer which has sickened so many. The family must be exposed for what it really is. Zerby and her lackeys must pay for the years of torture they inflicted upon us.
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| from
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 07:50
(Agree/Disagree?)
Whats disturbing is that they are still using their children to defend them, once it was happy smiles and song and dance routines, now it's to cover up for their past abuses.
They should be saying something along the lines of
" Some people in your generation, grew up with Bergs Idea that children can be the sexual playthings for us adults..Here are those writings"
"We have never apologised or admited to them that we now believe it to be wrong, so they are angry at us and want former abusers taken to court, for years we tried to hide our sins from those we abused and the world..."
Yet to protect these scum and maybe themselves, they turn brother against brother and sister against sister.
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| from JohnnieWalker
Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 07:01
(Agree/Disagree?)
"If you define abuse as children under the age of 18 being involved sexually in any way with an adult, I think participants in both forums would agree that most likely at least one thousand children were abused between 1970 and 1987."
In my opinion, the term 'abuse' carries a more encompassing definition. A simple rule of thumb that I tend to use when defining child abuse is "Would I ever do that to one of my daughters?".
If the answer is a resounding 'No', then I would consider the act an abusive one.
The acts I am referring to include but are not limited to:
1) spanking a child to the point of bruising.
2) placing a child in isolation for an extended period of time
3) denying a child the right to speak for weeks on end
4) denying child food for several days
5) denying a child the right to an education and/or punishing the child for reading educational material.
I could go on, but I think my point has been understood.
Defining abuse by the above actions, I am sure most would agree that the quoted figure of 1000 is a conservative one.
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| From Somebody's Daughter?
Thursday, January 20, 2005, 21:42
(Agree/Disagree?)
JW, I think that is the missing piece: "Would I ever do that to one of my daughters?"
Unfortunately, the James Chancellors of the world and the others that egg on The Family's propaganda machine to the delight and prosperity of Queens Mama and Peter don't ever seem to let this little consideration into the equation.
I would challenge them to reflect and truthfully respond:
"would this be good enough for a child of mine?"
Where is the humanity?
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| | From ErikMagnusLehnsher
Thursday, January 20, 2005, 18:57
(Agree/Disagree?)
That's a good list, Johnnie. I guess a lot of the posts on MyConclusion.com dealt with sexual abuse so I primarily addressed that. I agree that a list like this would definitely place the number of 1000 as very conservative. I would probably multiply it by 3 to 5. In my case, I would still say that I was not abused but my age at the time that that I was in TF meant that I was a teen during post-teen/adult sex and an adult prior to the Victor Era. The country that I was in in South America had limited Victor programs but they weren't beating kids with paddles or duck-taping their mouths, etc. I guess I was lucky and from country to country these programs apparently varied a great deal.
Some of the teen guys that I lived with as a teen had just come out of the era where they were having regular dates with some "Aunty HotStuff" and at the time they discussed the era rather nostalgically. I could compare it to Paul Finch talking about "Stifler's Mom". Some had stories about receiving "Penie Love" from a nanny when they were kids and preparing for their afternoon naps. Of course we're talking about discussions between male teens who were after all guys. I am not trying to make light of it...just stating my observations.
I know some of the teen girls had in the past been involved sexually with some of the men and at the time I had some big problems with that concept. When I think about my daughter, there is frankly no fucking way I would permit that to happen and I felt that way long before leaving the group.
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