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from Tess Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I am a 50 yr. old ex-member who left the cult in 1987 along with my husband and 6 children, the oldest was 12, the youngest a baby. Firstly I want say that I have not read or heard anything about the cult for several years other than the court case in England (I think) in which the barbaric and systematic torture and rape of Mene at the hands of the obviously sick and insane pedophile Berg(and crew)was brought to light. It was like reading someone's worst nightmare or a script for a horror movie.It haunted me for a long time and still does. I can only hope that she is able to lead a somewhat normal life after such an extreme violation of childhood innocence,youthful idealism and human dignity. And now there is this recent tragedy with "Davidito"--Ricky and Angela Smith. One can only imagine the torment that drove him to such an extreme and horrific act. It seems to me from viewing his memorial, that you have so beautifully put together, that a huge factor in him having such difficulty "moving on" was that he lamented over the fact that his sister and her(?)son were still subject to the insanity of the cult--more specifically, his mother. I just wanted to write and express my deepest sympathy to all-especially to those of you who knew and loved him personally. Again, after reading his letters and communications from the site, what I saw was an extremely intelligent, compassionate and idealistic young man who "only wanted to be loved". How very sad. I have often wondered how the 2nd generation of the cult would fare, especially those of you who spent so many years in it. I imagined that most would eventually leave and have trmendous amounts of emotional and psychological healing to do(as I have) but I never imagined in my wildest dreams to be reading about the murder/suicide of 2 of it's ex-members.I also believe after reading the "official" party line response of Zerby and Kelly(?) that they are beyond the reach of basic, normal, human emotion.It's wonderful to see that you have created this forum of open communication after being silenced for so many years. I wish you all well. (reply to this comment)

from RaverMom Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 21:10 (Agree/Disagree?) Parent...Sounds to me like you are still in TF. (reply to this comment)

from a parent Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 19:10 (Agree/Disagree?) I have several children out of the family. I've spent many hours helping them, hearing them out, enjoying their company, going to movies with them, eating out together. We talk openly about differences but usually don't bother 'cos we're too busy having fun together. Most parents I know in the very big city where I live are the same and have great relations with their ex-member kids. So where do you come up with your sweeping accusations and generalisations, all along the lines of parents don't listen to their kids, we don't care what you think, we don't want to hear you out etc. etc. Personally I think you, Daniel are very responsible for fostering hate and vengeance among ex-members. A while ago, my duaghter, with whom I've always been very close, suddenly started getting super angry about Family abuse etc. Something she never did before. She would get so worked up. Well, it was caused because her new boyfriend frequented your site and got her all worked up with the shit and gross exagerations that you forment here. I was shocked at the change in her. Thank God, after she and her boyfriend read the reactions to the recent very great tragedy with Ricky and Angela, they decided to stop getting on this web site, and we've had very good talks about it all as the friends that we are. I've read several comments here that condone, and even encourage actions like the brutal violence that Ricky committed. The general tone on this site is that he's a hero. My daughter was horrified, in fact all my ex-member kids are. Yet the general tone of this web site, ie. hatred, vengeance, wild exagerated statements, almost destroyed the great relationship we had. I think you guilty of causing very great harm. I don't know any Family parents that don't love their kids and want to help their ex-members children . Well, I'd have to say I know a few adults that I personally consider too self-righteous and not supportive enough. Of course, I know an equal number of non-family parents that aren't too great either. But is that a reason to vent such hatred & declare war on them? All you who say that Ricky was a poor victim, a matry, even a hero, should think tonight what it must be like to be stabbed twice and then have your throat cut. It seems from comments made to the newspaper that Angela didn't die right away, since Ricky was discouraged that she didn't know what she'd done wrong. Imagine it happening to you. Or imagine you doing it to someone else--the blood, the terror Angela must have felt, dying a tortuous death. There is NO JUSTIFICATION AT ALL FOR THIS BRUTAL ACT OF MURDER. I understand that you ask 'why'. So do I, so does everyone in and out of the Family who hears about it. And yes, we Family members do do serious soul searching about the Family and are not the mindless, brainwashed robots that you stupidly accuse us of being. Thank God I can discuss all of this with my ex-member kids very openly, with love and respect, even when they express doubts about the Family, and we can resolve things without declaring war on each other. Wish you all would learn that lesson. (reply to this comment)

From Monday, January 17, 2005, 07:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I wish TF would learn that lesson! TF have been talked about in the public eye/news for over 13 yrs and every time they give a response it's full of LIES and judgment on people seeking justice. Not addressing our concerns. Stick to the issue on why we want justice. Thats what we want to talk about. You need to walk a mile in one of our generations shoes. What's TF's "justification" for herding us all around like dancing animals sending its children to camps with a bunch of self confessed perverts? You read the mo letters, don't claim ignorance now. (reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Monday, January 17, 2005, 07:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Try to remember "parent" that you are speaking to mostly full grown adults here on this site and a little less of your condescending attitude would to be in order. The fact that thousands of us have the same story is a phenomena that seems to be lost on you and most of your cult collegues. Despite this, we all have our own ideas and opinions but the difference is that now we have the freedom and the venue to express them. The support you hear for Ricky's actions are the venting of years of pent up anger and frustration at the still unvidicated abuse we suffered at the hands of your generation. However, very few of us have actually condoned murder but nearly all of us understand his inner agony that drove him to that point. Unless you know each and every one of us personally and know the exact circumstances involving the abuse that thousands of us suffered please kindly keep your unwanted chidings to yourself. Your "sweeping generalizations" are offensive, ignorant, and predictably lack any sort of empathy for what we as your children have endured. You do not know me or my situation so how dare you have the tenacity to collectively accuse me and others by virtue of our participation on this site as condoning murder and over exaggerating our physical and sexual abuse as children. While there is no justification for murder, neither is there any justification for the support of or participation in a cult that systematically abused thousands of it's innocent children. Think about that next time you feel like coming on here and repremanding us!(reply to this comment)

From Hmmm Monday, January 17, 2005, 05:12 (Agree/Disagree?) So why is there curently a six month ban by Zerby and Kelly, on seeing, talking to ex-members or going on the internet? If you were being a "faithfull sheep" you wouldn't be here now, and if you don't agree with this new rule why do you slyly go against them? But still sing their praises? One thing we are not doing is that, we will not let them get away with it. ( what is the point of having those rules if you don't really believe them?) Years ago when I first spoke out to the media I was told I was the only one or one of few. They have been proved wrong on that! I think you have not been on top of your reading list, as TF have called their ex-member children "Apostates", likened us to blood dripping demons and refused (some?)parents their rights to contact their children. If you don't agree with this Family polocey, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. take it to leadership, but as anyone of us here can tell you, you'll get nowhere, or you'll be labeled a "Doubter" and all the rest that we have to put up with... "To dream the impossible dream" is what comes to my mind, but feel free to try.(reply to this comment)

From a parent Monday, January 17, 2005, 06:45 (Agree/Disagree?) For the record there was NEVER a ban on contact with ex-members. Once again, that is a twisting of the truth. Some thing I've seen before here. Is it accidental? Like the game of gossip where the facts get changed with the telling. Or is it a deliberate twisting of the truth to demonize us even further. (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Thursday, January 20, 2005, 14:50 (Agree/Disagree?) These people always run off as soon as anyone says anything remotely contrary to what they have to say--smacks of lying to me. After all , just as those who are our own age are now calling us liars, it is only people who have no real basis of truth to their argument that can't stomach a clean, fair fight. Cowards! And whatever about "He who fights and runs away.....".(reply to this comment)

From ChrisG Thursday, January 20, 2005, 13:39 (Agree/Disagree?) For the record, there was a ban on communicating with ex-members, at least in some areas. My brother was an ex-member and one Christmas when I was 12 I worked very hard on making him a beautiful Christmas card and I was given it back and told I couldn't send it to him because he was out of the family. Check your facts. (reply to this comment)

From Bella Thursday, January 20, 2005, 12:07 (Agree/Disagree?) That statement is not true "Parent"! My mother was an ex-member and we (my brother and three sisters) were unable to speak with her or receive mail or gifts from her for years! The family freaked out when the whole "Barz" thing happened (remember that?). I know first hand how they demonized ex-members because they demonized my own mother.(reply to this comment)

From niki Thursday, January 20, 2005, 13:14 (Agree/Disagree?) "Parent"--I had to burn my mother's pictures because she was not in the cult. I was 6. I didn't know what she looked like throughout my childhood until I happened upon a picture that one of my siblings stole from the post. I was 16. You need to acquire some fundamental research skills before you attempt to accuse us of twisting the truth. (reply to this comment)

From Bella Thursday, January 20, 2005, 14:45 (Agree/Disagree?) Got sent to Victor's for getting that picture! It was WELL WORTH IT!(reply to this comment)

From Auty Thursday, January 20, 2005, 12:57 (Agree/Disagree?) Absolutely right!! Much like my sister (Bella) we never received anything from our mother, it was filtered through leadership and any gifts she sent were worn my the adult female members. During the victor program all clothing and any belongings that my mother had sent (which myself and Bella snuck off the SC truck) were taken away and burned. My sister (Bella) was asked to shred a picture of my mother which was given to her by mistake . . . and when I left she was asked to get rid of pictures of me, her own sister. I don't know where you come across "parent" stating that we are somehow lying about our experiences that were NOT isolated incidents. Read this website and thank your lucky stars that your children still talk to you considering the BS you put them through by joining a cult. At least we have an excuse for being a little "off" . . .we were born into it, no choice on our part!! You on the other hand willingly JOINed and subjected your children to a number of actions that you are ultimately responsible for. Do you realize that you subjected your children to acts of abuse? That you ritualistically placed them on the alter of sacrifice to further yourself in a demented cult? Perhaps you would be wise to open up your eyes and face the realization that not only did you subject your children to this, but you were part of a group that subjected thousands of innocent babies to an abusive situation. You, along with all adults that willingly joined are responsible for the abuse that each one of us, your children, suffered. Stand behind us now and try to make up for your lapse in judgement instead of defending your actions. Make it count NOW and stop excusing yourself. Apology's without "BUTs" attached to them is a great start.(reply to this comment)

From Bella Thursday, January 20, 2005, 14:46 (Agree/Disagree?) I think I got sent to Victors for sneaking those boxes too! Actually, I still can't figure out why I got sent to Victors! LOL! And didn't it just piss you off seeing all those nice clothes on Aunties and in the video ministrie's costume closet?! Grrr!(reply to this comment)

From Laurora Thursday, January 20, 2005, 12:42 (Agree/Disagree?) yeah, I've been demonized because I left in '91 (after my husband was pushed to almost insanity & began drinking & left in 89) I took my 5 kids with me after working for the "family" for FREE for 10 years and being a peon. How stupid I was...they got me when I was in high school... Anyway, I've never regretted leaving but had to plan it oh so carefully...my youngest was 11 & in a special "school" and my youngest was 2. I am glad I got out of there when I did and my kids were able to go to regular school...but each one has had different challenges along the way. My sister is still there and high up in rank along with her many kids and you can't talk to them about much. They are so indoctrinated especially against their "system aunt". I remember the Barz thing. Those people are so entirely brainwashed it just makes me sick. I should keep this short though. Man what I know about them...(reply to this comment)

From FC Monday, January 17, 2005, 07:57 (Agree/Disagree?) As I understand it, the guidlines of the Renewal did not state that you could not have any communication with your kids who were ex-members but they did say to try to stay away from anyone who may have a negative view of the family. My mother did communicate with me and my siblings but would not address any issues we had regarding the family, discuss her continued membership and the fact that our younger siblings are still in the family. (reply to this comment)

From Fish Monday, January 17, 2005, 06:59 (Agree/Disagree?) We have no need to demonize demons. You and your kind are evil in its purest form. You reek with the guilt of thousands of minds twisted without a second thought, simply because you "felt it was right". You are vile beyond all comprehension. If your main enemies are you offspring what does that say about you? If we are demons dripping with blood, what does that make you? You and your kind are guilty of the blood of thousands of innocents; your "family of love" was built on our pathetic crushed and mangled bodies. Never fear, you will get your just reward. "The cock shall crow, and the dog shall have its day."(reply to this comment)

From xolox Thursday, January 20, 2005, 13:42 (Agree/Disagree?) "The cock shall crow, and the dog shall have its day." - says the fish-(reply to this comment)

From FC Monday, January 17, 2005, 05:54 (Agree/Disagree?) The renewal ended at the end of November 2004(reply to this comment)

From 1 hoo nose Sunday, January 16, 2005, 23:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry Parent, she'll be back. Nothing's sweeter than freedom. She'll be back with her boyfriend. Being able to speak your mind is a priceless priviledge we happily provide, & the Family never did. Not only will her curiosity flourish, she will eventually leave, & so will you. The human race is driven by instinct, & when there's no sustenance we move on in search of it elsewhere. This is exactly what brought your daughter to this site in the first place- Curiosity & a desire to open her mind up & explore her own ideas. Truth always prevails. You'll see too. The only sadness is the wasted years it takes for some to find their own expression & leave the lies & cover up behind. How do you feel about getting old with no place to go, while Zerby's family cozily snuggles into older age in the retirement home she & YOU boughtfor themr? Why don't you look it up & call them yourself? Who bought it? Who paid? I pray that you have a plan B to switch to when it's just not working anymore & you have health issues. (reply to this comment)

From a parent Monday, January 17, 2005, 06:52 (Agree/Disagree?) To clarify the facts, my daughter left 6 years ago. As for me? Well, I spent a whole year living on my own (not with the Family that is) as I wanted to help another daughter get into college. I enjoyed the freedom very much. However, after that year I decided to move back into a Home. Why? Because I like living in an environment where Jesus in honored as King and because I want to be a missionary. I will stay in a HOme only as long as I continue to have sufficient freedom--both independence and freedom of thought. Any time those are compromised, I can move to a different level of membership where I can have even more indepence. I am certainly not controlled etc. etc. all the things that I notice people who post on this site accuse the family of a lot. In the past there was less freedom in the Family, but that's why the Charter was brought in to guarantee people's rights. (reply to this comment)

From thinker711 Thursday, January 20, 2005, 15:34 (Agree/Disagree?) a parent writes: "I like living in an environment where Jesus in honored as King " The Family is not the only place where Jesus is honored as King (indeed, I would argue that they do not honor Him at all). Do you really think that jerking off to Jesus is honoring him? If anything it is utter inexcusable blasphemy. (reply to this comment)

From pandora Thursday, January 20, 2005, 12:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Why do you even bother trying to defend yourself and the family? Why do you care so much about what we say on OUR web site? Go read your "Mo" letters, you are wasting your breath here. You could type all day but nothing you say will change the past. We know what happened to us in the past and we know all to well the pain we carry with us to this day because of your beloved group. You guys thought of all the angles when you were raising us, the only thing you didn't think of is that one day we might actually think for ourselves. (reply to this comment)

From farming parent Monday, January 17, 2005, 08:01 (Agree/Disagree?) I feel sorry for you.If you had an email-address, I would take the time, to give you enough evidences to ponder about, with what Jesus is excactly dishonoured in TF & the LJR is one of the simplest facts...it's so weird, don't you get it??But you find enough evidence on the various websites! You (TF) screw up the Bible, it's pitiful, shocking!Not even with the tithe you get it right!! How do you exactly honour God (love), Jesus, by .....I can't say it, by abusing little children?And then covering up for it?? Don't tell me Paul, John & others didn't expose weird teachings of that day.So what is this honouring Jesus all about?Let me tell you, there are a few decent Christian groups around you could easily fellowship with, get detoxinated & be closer to your dear children, who have more discernment than you. Remember: Your declaration of independence?....just cut the ties...they need your tithe, but you really don't need them! (Those letters are spiritual poison.Food or poison, what will you take????) (reply to this comment)

From Monday, January 17, 2005, 07:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Why are there different levels of freedom then? Why do some members freedom have to be compromised at all? Who pressured the group to curb their sexual "freedoms"? (reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Monday, January 17, 2005, 07:15 (Agree/Disagree?) How can you call the rights granted to you by the Charter "guaranteed", when the Charter itself can be revoked by Family leadership at any time it sees fit?(reply to this comment)

From enigma Sunday, January 16, 2005, 23:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, this seems like a very Family thing to do. Deflect what is really going on and cast the blame on “a few bitter detractors/apostates”. You must have got those lines from Ms. Borowick. If you have ever been on this site before, which I doubt, you would see that there are many of us that suffered abuse. I am grateful that Daniel among others is doing what he can during this terrible situation and the truth is getting out. Why don’t you do what The Family has done for years when there is persecution and flee. (Oh, you are probably already doing that.) If you are not all mindless robots, as you say, lets hear some apologies from some of you. Or will you stick to the party lines? You know what happened. Or are you waiting for the latest memo from mama/peter/borowick. By the way, is there anybody other than Borowick that is allowed to talk to the media? Or have they restricted that as well? Wanting to keep their lies straight? How convenient of you to blame a few people for turning you daughter against the Family. Let me tell you my own experience. After I left a few years ago I didn’t want to think about The Family; I just wanted to get on with my new life. I thought that how we grew up was normal (manual labor, abuses, no schooling, being in a group separated from my parents and siblings, being made to memorize and read all day……I could go on & on). After awhile, once you see that the world is not like that and some kids actually have parents that care for them and don’t just care about “saving souls”(what about our souls) or what way they can f—k jesus next, you realize how we were screwed with. I am going to college now and I work full time. It is not easy starting school from scratch, but I will not let The Family win. They wanted us all to be ignorant slaves and follow in their footsteps. I DON”T THINK SO. I am doing well in school and have excellent grades but never once have my parents (who are still in) congratulated me and acknowledged what I am accomplishing. They would probably rather I be a bum on the street taking drugs than proving I can be successful outside the family. I could never do what some brave ex-members have done and interviewed with the media, but I am thankful for those that have. (reply to this comment)

From Albatross Sunday, January 16, 2005, 22:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Hi Parent, I'd be happy to meet you and chat about your concerns in front of TV cameras after this whole thing calms down a bit. Sincerely, Daniel Roselle (Albatross)(reply to this comment)

From Lance Sunday, January 16, 2005, 20:16 (Agree/Disagree?) It is the policy of this site to give a voice to those that otherwise would not have one and many times those voices are angry. We are not like the family. Here everyone has a voice and an opinion that they can express with out repression. The worst you will get is verbal abuse from some of the site members. We do not issue BAR(burn after reading)publications where freedom of expression is exercised and we have no black markers to edit out words that might offend our reputation. It isn’t very wise of you to rationalize the opinions of 2000+ people based on the comments that you have read from a few of them. It is clear that you do not intent to hear the truth when you refer to our content as: “the shit and gross exagerations that you forment here”. You need to read movingon’s official position regarding Ricky and Angela’s death. http://www.movingon.org/default.asp?sID=5 It is apparent that you feel the need to justify your own membership in the family by choosing to ignore the plight of your children’s generation.(reply to this comment)

From a girl Sunday, January 16, 2005, 19:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Parent, Your gross generalizations offend me profoundly! In my own self-discovery before and after leaving the Family, I realized that I had suppressed my memories of my childhood abuse due to feelings of shame and guilt. When I began thinking clearly without the group’s restrictions on my thoughts, I realized that my abuse went far beyond the emotional and psychological abuse I experienced throughout most of my life. I WAS sexually abused twice as a child and once as a young adolescent. These were instances that should have been prosecuted!! Don’t tell me or others who have suffered in this way that these were isolated instance of ‘members’ acting on their own--They were in direct ‘obedience’ to being ‘revolutionary’ and following Berg’s teachings. Are you sure you are not a 'mindless, brainwashed robot'? Is your mind and memory so controlled that you cannot remember publications your group purged because of how incriminating they were? Do these ring a bell? --The Dito Book, Heaven’s Girl, Berg’s incestuous abuse of his 13 year old granddaughter, to name a few. Think about it. You allow yourself to be manipulated by leaders who admonish you to receive your information ONLY from them (seems rather biased doesn’t it?), your accusations against Daniel, for instance, are simply repeating what you read in Family publications.(reply to this comment)

From one more thing Sunday, January 16, 2005, 20:09 (Agree/Disagree?) Btw, Parent...I have never met or spoken with Daniel or anyone else who has "fostered hate and vengeance" in me.(reply to this comment)

from Joe H Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 04:32 (Agree/Disagree?) For lack of a better word, Amen! Aaaaaaa-men! (reply to this comment)