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from itsxena2u Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 20:12 (Agree/Disagree?) I think if anyone wants to visit this site they are welcome. For the most part I find this site very interesting. However, I'm wondering if by bringing up the abuse, neglect, brainwashing and traumatic experiences over and over and over again is really helping us "move on". Don't you think? Visiting this site once in a while is interesting and even eye opening. But I definitely wouldn't recommend viewing it everyday. Such an overwhelming amount of negativity and constant reminders of our past does not help get over the pain. If anything it brings up anger and hateful thoughts that only hurts one's self. After reading some of the comments/articles you will find that some people have been able to "move on" with their lives and become succesful citizens in society and yet others choose to remain bitter, hateful and revengeful. They have every right to be and no one should judge them for these feelings. But in the end it will get them no where. If you want to make it your life's calling to persecute TF and bring them to an end, the more power to you. I personally have a life to live and children to feed. TF can go to hell for all I care. Their members will soon see the truth. Some sooner than others. But they will have to make the desicion themselves. There is nothing you and I can do or say that will change that. The reason I say this is because I was once one of those 110% "sold out" family members. I defended TF up and down. I spoke with the media in defense of TF. I went picketing when TF was imprisioned in Argentina, I refused to believe my own father when he tried speaking against Berg. Hell, I even prayed against some of you "enemies" of TF like I was instructed to in the "Word". I kept telling myself that the horrible spanking that other kids and I suffered as well as the sexual abuse was not TF fault but rather certain brethren that where "out of the spirit" and no longer members. I was your typical ideal "family member". Never doubting the word (or at least not admitting it to anyone, except leadership), always taking everything "by faith" and "trusting the Lord" for anything that happened in my life. If my own flesh and blood could not convince me then there's nothing or no one any one else could either! I KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE BRAINWASHED!! SO MUCH SO, THAT I EVEN TRIED TO BRAINWASH OTHERS IN CONVINCING THEM STAY. I was scared to live a life outside TF because I feared I would be "out of Gods Will" and therefore suffer the consequences. What finally opened my eyes is when I was going through a particularly hard time in my life. My husband (now ex) was a serious alcoholic, we both knew he needed help. When we "confessed" this to TF leadership, they promptly decided to ex-com him. They said TF was not a rehabilitation center, its not a place for the sick and the weak. They said I could stay but that I would need to go through my babes training again. That meant I would be excluded from every desicion made in the home, I would have no rights to anything, I had to abide by all the rules while I saw CM members constantly breaking them. Always being told how "bad" my kids where and how I should spank them more often. The teens that were taking care of them where instructed to spank my kids but they never did because they knew what it was like to get spanked all the time. Finally, after all of that the home decided to vote me out. After all, I was a single mom by then and I wasn't bringing in any funds to the home anyway. I was a burden in their eyes. What disgusted me the most is that I sacrificed my life, my time, my pleasures and my health for the first 27 yrs of my life, and then when I needed them the most (or at least I thought I did) I was abandoned.(by the same leadership that is no longer in TF!!) I'm trying to get over all the hurt and pain I've suffered. I'm trying to get on with my life. I hate the child abusers and the strange doctrines. But I do believe there are those like me in TF who are still living in denial. I pity them. (reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, February 23, 2004, 11:53 (Agree/Disagree?) Don't discount rage as a potent force for good in people's lives. What do you think it is that motivated me to become better than you? Pure unadulterated rage!(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, February 23, 2004, 10:25 (Agree/Disagree?) "I'm wondering if by bringing up the abuse, neglect, brainwashing and traumatic experiences over and over and over again is really helping us 'move on'." When did "moving on" become the goal that we are now all supposed to try to meet? When did the 12 step of cult rehabilitation become the norm here? Aren't we just pushing the same "spiritual enlightenment" of cult reform that the cult pushed on us? There are those you picketed against in Argentina who were just children themselves, who'd been raped by the very leadership you were following, who testified alone, more than once, who were the victims of the very Family media smear campaigns you participated in and who are very much "not moved on" today and still very scarred and always will be. No amount of cajoling by some former "sold out" Family members here are ever going to help them heal. The only thing that will help them is when they are vindicated, their abusers revealed, their crimes revealed, they are not harbored by the cult which allowed the abuse to take place and some sort of justice is finally brought to bear. That doesn't happen through silence and the promotion of some sort of evolved state which a victim is finally supposed to achieve and be "moved on." The goal, if there is one, of this website, shouldn't just be to assist the present members of the Family. There is the Safe Passage Foundation for that. And, it has never been to assist FGAs. Rather, in my mind, this site is a great benefit to the SGAs who have left or escaped and are coming to terms with the experiences of their childhoods. Knowing you are not alone, knowing you were not "rebellious, disobedient and out-of-the-spirit," knowing that rape and molestation is not "love," and knowing that all the terrible things which happened to you were not your fault or right or happened because you deserved them but rather because your parents raised you in a perverted sex cult which beat and raped its own children, medically neglected them and exploited their labor, is the beginning of "moving on." We don't need anymore rugs to sweep the dirty lies and secrets under. We need bigger billboards to post the truth. We need the names and pictures of the people who committed these acts. Acting as though it's wrong or "negative" or "hurtful" to bring up the truth, to expose the real perpetrators for what they are, criminals, not "loving shepherds," only further promotes the guilt and shame and pain and lies. It's not "persecution," itsxena2u, to want those who committed these acts to be brought to justice. If it is anything it is called criminal prosecution. The terminology of the cult is all part of its indoctrination and attempt to control our thinking. What is really negative and hurtful here is when individuals get up the nerve to finally talk about their experiences here, the physical, sexual and mental abuse and they are subsequently labeled "bitter," "angry," "a bitch," "flirty," having wanted it, "grumpy," etc. by a few folks here who haven't been out very long or don't have any idea of what they're commenting on because they're too young. It burns me up because it victimizes them all over again. There are those on this site who have never told their stories and whose stories are some of the most horrific ever experienced in the Family. The very reason they continue to live in shame and fear is because they were victims of the Family's media team when they were still only children and they have been attacked by "sold out" people here, those who have the nerve to challenge the veracity of their experiences. One day, the true story of Argentina will be told. Someday, the real victims will be revealed along with the perpetrators. I only hope I see that day in my lifetime. It just amazes me how the very people who raped a little girl from the time she was 12 to 14 and took away here ability to have children after they waited too long to take her to the hospital because of the disease the rapes gave her and they had to cut her open like a beef cow and cut out all her reproductive organs in order to save her life which left her scarred across the stomach 12 inches can actually have the nerve to pretend they were the victims and actually defame this child in the media. How do these monsters, who the Family is still harboring and putting in positions of power, sleep at night? How do they live with themselves? And how is it that they have been successful in getting other of their victims to continue to spread their propaganda about "bitterness," "forgiveness," and "moving on" long after they've also left? It is just so amazing it is nearly unbelievable had I not known it first hand, experienced it and put my arms around my friend who also lived it as she cried nearly 13 years later. No, itsxena2u, I do not "pity" "those like me in TF who are still living in denial." I pity their victims. My heart goes out to the very ones you are calling "negative" and telling that "constant reminders of our past does not help get over the pain." Yes, it is an emotional issue. Yes, it is terrible. Yes, it is angering. It is an outrage that it has gone on so long and nothing has been done to stop it. It's enraging to anyone who ever experienced it or who has friends who experienced it. It is even worse when they are told to "calm down," "move on," "forgive" or not to be "negative." I say we are not doing enough. I say we are not angry enough. I say we have been too tolerant. We are so afraid of being like our parents that we believe in nothing and stand for nothing. The only thing that is going to put an end to the Family is us. It begins with us speaking out and revealing the truth. The Family has had the floor for twenty years. It's time for them to sit down and shut up and listen to the truth. The world needs to hear the truth of what happened to hundreds of children over twenty plus years in many countries all in the name of God! We, at least me and those like me I've spoken to, are not here to reform a cult. We are here to get justice for ourselves and our friends, both dead and living, before anymore of us join the dead. And we have lives “to live and children to feed” as well, but if we don’t do something no one ever will. It is more than caring about our own personal siblings. It is that we will not sit around and do nothing while “evil flourishes.” (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Tuesday, July 19, 2005, 07:38 (Agree/Disagree?) I had no idea stuff like that ever happened in The Family. I never saw anything like that. That really shocks me. what time period was it that children in The Family were raped? It must have been before my time, and I'm 26 now. I closely identify with the person who wrote the above article.(reply to this comment)

From farmer Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 00:52 (Agree/Disagree?) I have very high hopes, that the book PD was talking about recently, gets finished & published as soon as possible.I don't know how long Deborah was out until it got published...if I remember right , not too long after she left.It was feared by Berg, super poorly refuted & we were "warned" against reading it, yet subconsciously one often wondered, what has his own daughter to say, could someone make only false statements, publish fictions & exaggerations??After leaving, I read it & recommend reading it.It became one reference book concerning TF.Since not everyone knows this site or has access to the internet, I think a book written by the SGAs with their lifestories would reach & warn a lot more people.I'd like it to be another referencebook & I hope the most powerful which could be written.Some time ago I felt asking at this board -esp. Nancy - whether a book like this could have negative implications on any court decisions of the future regarding TF. I heard though just recently,that in a courtcase against youth in the LA-area (311-group??!!), they passed on a video of the groupfights to the media & the defending lawyer is afraid, that it could influence the judge in his decisionmaking.That made me think, that it's one more "obligation" to get a book published, and so far I haven't fathomed the difficulties yet, in getting the book ready?!If people can "beautifully" portray things on this board, I thought it should be one step short of writing things up as they were.This is also my opinion to Albatrosses article about the rewriting of history of TF, or their attempt.They try of course, for one, they are afraid of any other lifestyle, so accustomed to it etc. so they try everything which preserves that status, anyone trying to rock the boat is accused of lying etc....IMO it's hight time to publish a book against these attempts!!!! Before I forget...good article Nancy.(For sure I'd buy at least one copy, would recommend buying it to others, promoting it in general)(reply to this comment)

From itsxena2u Monday, February 23, 2004, 21:32 (Agree/Disagree?) Well Nancy all I have to say is that there are a lot of my friends who are still in TF. They were abused as little kids. But they NEVER EVER abused anyone themselves. They are victims of not only child abuse but brainwashing as well. These are the victims I pity. I never put the blame on any teenage girl for getting raped as her fault. It is natural for a teenage girl to be flirty and want attention. Look at so many teenage celebrities! What is NOT normal is that sick perverted adult men take that to their advantage. Do I make myself clear? Or do I have to spell it out over and over again so that you don't take a portion of what I say out of context. Nancy, I don't have anything against you. The fact that I mentioned earlier that I thought you have a "chip on your shoulder" is just a matter of opinion. I agree with a lot of things you say. You're right about a lot of stuff! Even after making my little comment about you, you will see that I still ended in a very positive note about you. I commended you for all your hard work and dedication. And you are right, it's not luck that got you were you are now. But please! WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY HERE!! We all may have differences of opinions and frankly I find myself agreeing with you on a lot of points. And its not because I'm trying to suck up to you. I think you are a very mature person and I respect what you have to say. But what I don't understand is why you have to put so many people down when you don't agree with them? Why are you so ferociously atacking the very people that have a lot in common with you? Why do you take a small comment someone says and interpret it the way you think it is and then throw it back at them so furiously? Are you so angry and frustrated with the fact that the guilty are not getting the punishment they deserve that you feel like you have to lash out to anyone thats willing to listen to you? Why are you taking everything so personally like its directed straight at you? You are not the only victim of child abuse. You are not the only person that had to watch your sibblings get beaten with all sorts of crazy weapons. You are not the only one that was forced to beg long hours on the street or wash dishes for 70+ people and the list goes on and on. On the other hand, I am not the only victim of your rage. I have read other peoples comments as well and they seem to be distancing themselves from you. I don't apreciate my comments being labelled as stupid. I don't think other people apreciate being accused of defamation, or incipid, or envious of you. I fear you are making enemies out of some people who have absolutely nothing against you. Let me tell you! I don't think anyone is envious of you. We are proud of your accomplishments and your hard work. We wish you the very best! BUT WE DEFINITELY DO NOT FEEL INFERIOR TO YOU! Of course, if you insist on staying angry all the time. Its up to you. There is nothing you have suffered that we haven't suffered ourselves. However different people have different ways of dealing with the past. If you believe your anger and hatred will not eat away at you or distance others from you, then go ahead. I myself have chosen a different path. I'm not saying all this to make you madder. It is not WHAT you are saying but HOW you are saying it. Despite everything you've said to me, I still value your opinions and would still like to read you comments. Not only on my articles but others as well. Believe it or not, I'm not mad at you at all. If I'm not mistaken, I think most people come to this site to chat on a friendly level. We're all tired from a long days work and we just want to relax and chat a while and perhaps add a comment or two. I'm not in the mood for getting into a war with you. You're not the one I have issues with. Again, I have nothing against you and have NO interest in becoming your enemy. I apologyse if anything I have said has offended you or anyone else. There. All is said. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 08:13 (Agree/Disagree?) itsxena2u, I don't give a good god damn what you think of me! I'm not here to rally troops, especially not you. When you begin to understand that and realize that my comments aren't aimed at making buddies with you but rather at setting things straight especially concerning the people here who are my friends and not allowing folks like you to belittle, categorize or stereotype their experiences, then you might start getting half of what I say. If the way I say something offends you, then tough. I will not apologize. Get some tougher skin or don't make uninformed comments about other people's experiences, especially such serious ones, and for god's sake stop parroting the same propaganda the Family has used for years. And don't even get me started on the law. I won't even debate that with you. Believe what you want while I will continue to write about what it actually is. The fact that you think this is about some kind of conflict between you and I is laughable. The fact that you have tried here in you little post to sum up what I've said concerning the Family, their indoctrination, other people's experiences of abuse and the law as some sort of personal thing between us is sad. There is no us. My comments mentioned your ill-formed judgmental slights at other people not because I know or care who you are but because I know and care about the people you where directing your little "let's move on folks" attitude at. You continue to harp on the idea that you don't feel inferior to me. I'm no psychologist, but you have some issues. You take everything I say as directed at you and begin with your “inferior” arguments. Could it be denial, projection? There's a whole plethora of choices, but please leave me the f*ck out of it while you sort it out. As far as you being the enemy goes, you would have to be a bigger blimp on my radar screen. But, that doesn't change your sanctimonious comments and directive to "move on." Frankly, I'm very suspect of anyone who was "sold out" to the sex cult the Family. If some of the weirdoes that are in that cult started coming out and blathering this or that here, I'm not going to open my arms and say "welcome home, dear." No, I didn't like them when I was in that damn cult by no choice of my own, and I sure as hell don't like them now. On the other hand, there are some folks here who were always fighters, always stood up for what they believed in, never let that damn evil cult break them, took whatever it doled out rather than succumb or turn rat and try to betray their friends to save their own ass, those are the folks who I call friends. They might not agree with me on everything or even a lot of things, but they will always have my respect, and if I offend them in my zeal, then I am not above apologizing. Yet, you are not one of those people right now. My heart and feelings always lies with those that suffered, and my respect lies with those that suffered the most and yet still fought the hardest and are here today due to their own determination and grit. There are even a couple people here who left in the last few years, who I highly suspected for awhile, but whose actions and words have proven their character and whom I now highly respect. But, when you just show up ignorantly rattling on about "moving on" and how you prayed against and picketed against those in Argentina, not even considering your audience, or on whose painful experiences your thoughtless comments fell, then don't expect me to throw you a damn welcoming party or sit by and say nothing.(reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Tuesday, July 19, 2005, 07:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Harsh.(reply to this comment)

From trader Sunday, February 29, 2004, 06:06

From itsxena2u Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 23:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Whatever Nancy................................................. (reply to this comment)

From Wolf Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 12:51 (Agree/Disagree?) So you don’t come here to make friends with people like me? What a heartbreak! That’s gonna keep me up nights.(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, February 23, 2004, 23:26 (Agree/Disagree?) Nancy has had too much to drink tonight to comment on this. All I read was blah, blah, blah...Nancy, blah, blah, blah... Maybe tomorrow it will make some sense. Or it could just still be blah, blah, blah. We'll have to see.(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, February 23, 2004, 11:52 (Agree/Disagree?) Once again Nancy and I are on the same page, maybe it's because we left around the same age. movingon.org is a bit of a misnomer and I like to think that whoever acquired it did so for it's potential future value. After all, I am sure there is nothing the Cult would love more than for all of us to just "move on." Like Nancy I am an ardent proponent for the dissolution of the Family for the simple reason that do anything else would make me less of a human being. The simple fact is that everything the Family is predicated upon means squat to me. The only thing's that have value to me are my respect for myself and my empathy for my fellow human beings. Unfortunately as I get more involved with this "effort" I am coming to realize that many of you are saddled with moral compass' radically different from mine. Specifically many of you are still beholden to the Family on some level. Perhaps it is a lingering side effect of having been "110% sold out." This brings me to my next point. There seems to be a rift developing between those of us who were once duped by the Family and those who weren't. As far back as I can remember none of that crap about God, Jesus and the Antichrist ever made any sense to me. My position now is that the entire phenomenon that is the Family is an absurd fantasy realm that is wholly without merit. It's only palpable effect is the brain washing and dumming down of its original members and the neglect and abuse of its second generation. This is way I get annoyed when you people carry on these tiresome discussions about the relative guilt or innocence of this or that abuser. There is simply nothing to discuss. I decided long ago to get on board and try for a civilization. In this civilization we decided that the sexual and physical abuse of children is criminally wrong. End of story. The fact that some of you are still willing to debate the guilt of admitted abusers means that you are trying to carve out a moral niche for them that distinguishes them from the creep who rapes a little girl behind a dumpster. There is no difference! Guilty, guilty, guilty! Jail, jail, jail!(reply to this comment)

From frmrjoyish Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 10:58 (Agree/Disagree?) I have to admit that I was once one of those "sold-out" members. Looking at my life now and the person I've grown to be, I can hardly believe it, but it's true. TF was my whole world and all I knew as a child. Even despite the abuse I suffured, I still counted myself "lucky" to be one of "god's chosen few". In fact, I was racked with guilt for about two years after leaving. It wasn't until the fog of the cult began to lift off my mind and I started being able to think for myself and reason things out. I began to demand evidence of things instead of having "faith". I started reading the writings of Charles Darwin and they changed my life. I began to recognize his inner struggle with his upbringing, his Christianity, and the things he was discovering, as similar to what I was experiencing. Today I take great pride at how much I have grown as a person. I have gone from being a stupid dumb follower to a sceptic who always demands proof. It has taken even longer for me to come to terms with some of the incidences that have occured in my childhood, but slowly, I am healing. While I have no patience or sympathy for some of these idiots who sympathize with TF, I have to say that if a "100% sold out" person like myself can do such a 180, then there is hope for everyone.(reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Monday, February 23, 2004, 16:36 (Agree/Disagree?) I wonder if someone could uncover an old devotion tape where exister is closing his eyes and really getting in the spirit or singing the "Battle Hymn of the Revolution" with all his 110% heart? :-P(reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, February 23, 2004, 16:49 (Agree/Disagree?) It doesn't exist.(reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Monday, February 23, 2004, 16:51 (Agree/Disagree?) How can we be sure of this? Can we trust your word? (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, February 23, 2004, 23:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Let me confirm that is doesn't exist!(reply to this comment)

From Jules Monday, February 23, 2004, 15:48 (Agree/Disagree?) When I read this I remembered something you wrote just over three months ago: Exister: "While I went to college I worked as a medic in a state penitentiary. I dealt with pedophiles and child rapers on a daily basis. I now have a very clear legal and moral category into which they fit. When I began transacting on this site I realized a horrible and disgusting thing. After 12 years I still placed pedophiles in the family in a seperate moral category. I did not lump them in with the convicted felons I had seen at work. This realization outraged me because after 12 years I thought I had purged out the knee jerk moral concessions that are so rife in this cult. Clearly I hadn't and I had to conciousnly tell myself what I am about to tell you now. It is never right for a grown person to commit sex acts with a minor! Never, never, never, ever. I don't care if God told them to (he's dead BTW), or if everyone else was doing it, or if they were drunk, or even if they think the minor wanted it. It is never right! " http://www.movingon.org/article.asp?sID=1&Cat=16&ID=1644#17970 If you yourself only came to this realization a short time ago, after being out for over a decade, then perhaps for ALL of us, sorting these things out for ourselves is a process. I choose the domain name Moving On, because healing from abuse, identifying and sorting out the lies we were taught, bringing the guilty to justice, as well as getting on with our lives is all an ongoing journey. It takes time to figure out who we are and what we believe and it takes time to move further and further away from the toxic environment of the Family. One thing I don’t think any of us take too kindly to is someone telling us how much better than us they are, either because they left long before we did or long after, or because they have more education or are more successful in business, or because they are more or less angry about their own abuse. I know I am just as bad and get just as wound up sometimes, but I am trying to remind myself of the point for me in communicating here and why I wanted to create this site in the first place. I do believe that there are absolutes of right and wrong when it comes to human rights (and in particular the rights of children) but I think that for most of us, there are a lot of things in life that we are still coming to terms with and understanding for ourselves, and probably will be for a long time to come. I've seen first hand here how this process can absolutely be accelerated by open discussion on various topics. There's just a difference in saying "these are my views, and this how I came to these conclusions" and saying "you are a brainwashed moron/bitter apostate" if you differ from what I think. (reply to this comment)

From exister Monday, February 23, 2004, 17:01 (Agree/Disagree?) True, I admitted to having made a "knee jerk moral concession." That is a far cry from openly and explicitly defending these criminals. When I was 6 and I saw 2 little girls stroking a grown man's hard on I placed the event in a moral category that allowed me to move past my disgust and anger at the event. The fact that my initial reaction to hearing about other pedophiles in the Family was anything short of outright condemnation of them angers me to this day. It seems all of us are saddled with the coping mechanisms of our youth, and I blame no one for resorting to these before thinking things through. However, given a chance to think about it there is no justification for supposedly intelligent, thinking adults to verbally argue the relative innocence of these admitted criminals. As for claiming that I am better than others I will make 2 points. First, you have to know that I am joking. Second, none of you could ever hate me as much as I hate myself, so claiming that I am better is a moot point.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Tuesday, July 19, 2005, 07:55 (Agree/Disagree?) Sigh, reading this thread has made me nostalgic for the good ol' days of movingon. Where have all the intelligent people gone??? This is the kind of serious discussion and weighty debate that should be happening here, instead of the ridiculously juvenile, ill-informed and bigoted rubbish that has been littering this site in recent weeks. I miss all you clever people! I guess we all moved on, huh! (reply to this comment)

From Jerseygirl Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 12:47 (Agree/Disagree?) "None of you could ever hate me as much as I hate myself" I love that! It's exactly how I feel... and yet I still say that self improvement , at least in a "NWO" sort of way" is for the birds. (And of course for cults.)(reply to this comment)

From neez Tuesday, February 24, 2004, 09:42 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah there's a fine line between self-hate & self-improvement. I don't think you can really have 1 without the other. & so, as always, it remains about balance.(reply to this comment)

From Hanna_Black Monday, February 23, 2004, 11:56 (Agree/Disagree?) Bravo!!!(reply to this comment)

from Lauren Friday, February 20, 2004 - 09:22 (Agree/Disagree?) This topic came up quite awhile ago when members of this site were introduced to the Family Youth Group yahoo forum & started joining there, and members from the Family came here to check out this site. The general consensus at that time was pretty close to the views that Joe H stated down below. The population of Movingon.org has grown considerably since then so it's possible the overal feeling about current members visiting this site has changed. In my own opinion, however, I know that this site has had a temendous influence on young people choosing to leave the Family. There is nowhere else where a person who is making a decision like that can come to find out what the "other side" has to say & I know from my own experience that the truth told on this site has opened the eyes of a lot of otherwise naive and trusting SGA Family members. It would appear that Family leadership hates this site. They are constantly telling their members to stay away from ex-member sites, they are, apparently, afraid of the truth that has been told and don't want current members reading it. They've certainly made it a big enough "no-no" throughout the recent GNs. Because of the ban in the Family on current members coming to a site such as this, it's my opinion that any who do come here, do so at risk of discovery to themselves, and do so because they have reached a stage in their lives where they are curious and willing enough to listen to what it is ex-members have to say. I believe that is a good thing. In the history of this site, there have been very few times when current members have posted anything (7* doesn't count as he is an ex-member himself), and of those current members who have posted here, most of the ones I am aware of are now out of the Family. My personal feeling is that all SGA Family members should visit this site at least to read what is written. And I totally agree with what JoeH said, they are welcome here as long as they don't preach. My views on First generation Family members visiting and especially posting on this site are different. (reply to this comment)

from Mydestinyismine Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 19:07 (Agree/Disagree?) If they want to learn the truth, which they desperately need to know even if they don't know it, then let'm read or ask. If they want to preach or act sympathetic then kick'm out. If they aren't ready for a change of mind then they have no reason being here. (reply to this comment)

from Joe H Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 10:21 (Agree/Disagree?) I'd say that, provided they don't witness or give us the tired old speech about being lukewarm and only following half of the Zerbicon, then sure, let em be. And they'd better not give the bitterness lecture either! (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Thursday, February 19, 2004, 18:50 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know, Joe. They creep me out. I mean we all left that ilk, many of us escaped and spend years making up for what that cult did to us. Why now invite them back in and ask them to have a chair? The people here have grown on me. Some of them I really respect, some, well, some challenge me, which is good, too. But, it is somewhat stressful when "sold out" folks come dragging that cult back into our lives. There aren't any FGAs or anyone who joined that cult of their own free will who I want to converse with. It also makes it more difficult to converse with others here when they're around. Remember 7*? That was annoying and creepy. It takes me back to times I worked hard to supress. I am NOT about that cult. I reject it outright. I reject EVERYTHING about it. To use their own words, "A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit." I just think there is a HUGE difference between those of us that experienced the horror that is the Family due to no fault of our own and those who freely joined. It's like Justice Marshall said about obscenity, "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it." Well, it's hard to describe, but I know the difference when I see it. I don't agree with everyone here, but deep down I have a certain amount of respect for them because I know they survived that wicked cult. I can't say the same of anyone who joined it freely, much less dragged their poor children along with them. (reply to this comment)

From night_raver Sunday, February 22, 2004, 22:28 (Agree/Disagree?) Nancy, the question here, at least as I got it, was of SGAs in TF coming here -- not FGAs. I think I also take Xena's opinion, that there were those of us who did quite strongly agree with TF and defended it, it is interesting that TF leaders are quite scared of members visiting this site and I also know quite a few who visited and defended TF (as I would have done before) and are now out. I dont care much either way, maybe I didn't see as much as you, but if you do want our bros and sisters to leave, this is the place they'll begin to ask the right questions -- once they go through their knee-jerk defense of TF, they'll see enough that doesn't click. (reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, February 23, 2004, 09:33 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I overlooked the rules along the edge of the page that said one cannot comment on anything that is not asked or presented in the original article. Yeah, you're real helpful. Ug! This site has become so flippin' cultish lately. It's rather tiresome due to two or three really "sold out" commentators. Next thing you know we're going to be asked to write open heart reports. HELLO?! Joe, Tim, Jules, Albatross, Exister, fmrjoyish, lucidchick, where are these people who make this site the normal "systemite" website I came to love? I swear if I read anymore comments that sound like they were quoted from "letters," I'm going to puke!(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, February 23, 2004, 10:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Are you saying that anyone whose opinions do not mirror your own are not worthy of being qualified a 'systemite'? I'd like to know who appointed you guardian of all that is 'normal' or 'systemite'? The beauty of free modern society is that we are able to form our own opinions without fear of discrimination or persecution. Is this a right which we are to be denied on this site, or because we were once members of a cult?(reply to this comment)

From Nancy Monday, February 23, 2004, 10:27 (Agree/Disagree?) Systemite is a term I consider one of the highest compliments. And, sorry, but I would not consider you a systemite, yet. I smell the sulfer of the Family too strong around you padawon.(reply to this comment)

From Ne Oublie Monday, February 23, 2004, 11:23 (Agree/Disagree?) The 'system' was going on long before you came along, and it will continue on long after you're gone! Each individual's perception of what can be defined as 'systemite' is different. Nancy, I respect you as a woman who has struggled, often against tremendous odds, to achieve her goals, one who holds true to her ideals, and is uncompromising. However this does not mean that I agree with or endorse those ideals! Nor does it mean that I respect, or would choose to emulate your personality. If your participation on this site is anything to judge by, then you are not someone I would wish to interact with. While I don't doubt that you consider you have the right - possibly even the duty - to the anger you so readily throw around, it is my opinion that a mannered individual would not employ the tone or language you have on this site. If the term 'systemite' is complimentary to you, then you are welcome to it! I have no wish to usurp it from you - and definitely not the definition which you have given it, which forgive me for saying sounds suspiciously more like a mind-controlled cult than anything else: only those holding the same opinions and ideals as you are entitled to use it. If you consider that I 'smell of the sulphur of the Family' that is also entirely your own perogative - however, I would ask you (as I have done before) to specify exactly what it is that I do that is so 'Family-ish'. Or is that a term you choose to brandish on anyone who disagrees with you that has been in the Family at some point in the more recent past than yourself? I don't owe you anything, nor do I care whom you think my opinions have been influenced by. When I debate I prefer to address the ISSUES, and not the character of my opponent, you on the other hand, seem to relish the chance to brand your opponent with some term which in your mind seems to incapacitate of the ability to form an opinion - thus, rather than addressing the issue you consistently attack the character/competency of your opponent. Every human being is capable of forming opinions, and they are entitled to the right to voice them! This does not make their opinion correct - the very definition of an opinion distinguishes it from fact or truth. The bulk of contributions on this site fall under the definition of opinions, whether more or fewer people share these opinions is irrelevant to their veracity.(reply to this comment)