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from Jailbird Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 07:05 (Agree/Disagree?) Hmm. ... Okay, this is an old post from 2005. I was about to rip Anneke a new one on the other board for this gossip nonsense, and then have the age old chit chat with our mother about some of this nonsense. I just assumed it was a recent post, but it's not, nearly 3 years old. Thankfully things are a little better at this point. (reply to this comment)

from afflick Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 11:54 (Agree/Disagree?) Maybe her mother went to nursing school, but she sure isn't very educated. Reading that missive "about" Merry was like reading a fairy book or sci-fi. Firstly, she wrote about herself and her experiences much, much more than she wrote about her daughter. A bit odd for a post that was supposedly all about her. Secondly, for someone with a degree in the medical field, there was very little analysis of her daughter's suffering in those terms. No mention of post-traumatic stress or counsellling. Just demons, demons everywhere. And then, she broadens her message of demons and deliverance to all of us, lamenting that we are no longer spiritual and our parents generation needs to pray hard over the fight for our soul. While I am flattered that she deems us so important to the cause of what is good and right, I have to take offense at her message. We have educated ourselves and struggled to come to where we are: to real life; real life where there are no demons, angels wrestling for our souls but just the everyday grind of making it through, finding a good job, setting up shelter, scouting around for friends that will be loyal, finding love and bringing our own children into a world where they are loved for who they are, not what they bring to spiritual warfare. We set goals for ourselves that we achieve through our own strength of will. It is not about "real" or "true" Christianity versus fake any more than it is about real Mormonism ("ANOTHER JESUS" -wtf?) or real Muslims. It is not "sexy" thrilling or exciting to talk about your life in terms of the mundane. Doing so reduces you from a magical spiritual being of highest importance to one more of billions of people and organisms who were born, lived and then died on this planet. But there it is. Stripped of all pretension and glamour, another human being propels themselves through life. I worry about Merry. I think about her. Not in terms of angels and demons, but it terms of human suffering. I think about what she endured as a child, that smiling singing little girl who just wanted to please the adults around her. She tried and tried though the adults demanded more and more of her: her mind, her body, her integrity. I don't know where she is or how she is doing (her mother's long letter to a friend, for all its pretense, said very little about how Merry actually is faring) but she deserved much more than she got. Because of her suffering, many of us, her peers, began to look at our own abusive situations and eventually many of us got out of the cult in which we were born. She is an older sister, in a way, to many of us. She is one of us and I think of her. I wish she could find her way out of all the trauma and stress and find love, live the rest of her life knowing she made it through. It makes me angry that what is offered to her the most, what is so enthusiastically given, is worthless: Jesus. What I think would help her more is if people helped her in real terms: with unjudgmental listening, money for her medical and physical needs, a job and training to pay her college loans, an opportunity to heal without the taint of religion constantly at her back. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Saturday, February 23, 2008, 16:29 (Agree/Disagree?) Afflick, Looking over your comments. ... She actually has had a lot of help through the years, but she's been so severly damanged that many situations haven't worked out as expected. My mother and step father have opened their home to her time and time again, only to be stolen from, lied about, have the police show up, etc. ... It's very sad, and I don't mean to reflect discredit on her, but rather show how severe and destructive the relationship impairment and arrested emotional development can be, in these cases. Other people have opened their homes etc. ... She's been offered psychological counselling and has turned it down. It really hurts me to see on one hand the pain that our mother has gone through, and on the other hand the pain my sister has gone through, and then to have the situation summarized with questionable conclusions. My experience with the outpourings of whatever on this site, is that everyone is talk, and no-one actually comes through. The only people who came through for me during my ordeal last year were my family. Everything else was talk, hot air, gossip and not a penny of help. Unfortunately with my sister, it's been the same thing, gossipers eager to post another person's email. Draw questionable conclusions etc. ... You have to understand that I strongly disagree with many of my mothers ideas. But I also know that while other people were sitting around gossiping etc, she has come through as much as she has had the capacity to do so for her children, which is a lot more than I can say for anyone else on this board or elsewhere. If people actually do want to help: Do it. Stop talking, do it. Set up a fund, we'll find a trustworthy attorney or licensed individual to proctor it and. If these foundations that have been set up really want to help. Let's see them do it. Having a memorial day is great and all, but being of some physical help to a victim would probably be a more worthwhile use of organizational time and energy. It's easy to gossip. Sympathy is cheap. It's very difficult to actually come through for someone. Talk is cheap, and one doesn't know who will come through for them, until they do. For myself at least, I have no illusions about who will come through for me, if and when I stumble. I have no faith in religion's ability to do anything. But I do believe in people's ability to be honest, say what they mean and then do what they say. (reply to this comment)

From Falcon Sunday, February 24, 2008, 10:37 (Agree/Disagree?) "Set up a fund" with what money? I'm sure I don't need to tell you how difficult it is to fundraise for anything 'cult' related, and there are very few individuals spending their time, money and efforts into actually doing it. Are you? Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and start finding donors for this 'fund'? With all respect, IMO, you're the one doing all the talking atm. We all know your sister has suffered and you have suffered and your family has suffered, and I'm truly very sorry, but there's enough pain, anger and finger pointing to go around and fact is, it's getting old. Everybody has suffered! As an after thought, aren't you supposed to be banned from this site?(reply to this comment)

From cheeks Monday, February 25, 2008, 09:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I am not responding directly to you Falcon but I thought here was the best place to post my comment. The absolute reality is Berg, Zerby, Sara, Peter and the whole of Bergs home are the ones who destroyed Mene. Not to mention her incarceration at Macau, where her uncle Ho was in charge. They are the ones who should pay I think we as a community should demand restitution for her. She should never have to pay a bill for the rest of her life for what they did to her. I don't think the prisoners at Getmo had to crap in buckets like she did. I don't think outrage should even begin to cover it. I really don't think I am articulate enough to write a letter to demand that they step up to the plate and pay at the very least all of her bills, and I think as many of you/us agree to it we should sign it and sent it to them. So if any of you feel like you could write I am more than happy to sign it. Let us do something about this I am so sick of the Family's excuses I can't stand it anymore.(reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Monday, February 25, 2008, 15:34 (Agree/Disagree?) I've asked them for help numerous times throughout the years. I asked again in 2005. I then asked again at least for an apology less like "we're sorry if harm came to you", as opposed to we're sorry we raped you blind, tied you to beds bed and incarcerated you. I've also spent forever arguing and trying to reason with that sociopath, Grant Montgomery. As a show of support for her I supppose something like that couldn't help. But knowing the mindset of the cult leadership, they're seriously recalcitrant, unrepentant sacks of shit. But, I'd be happy to draft something, if people are willing to sign it, I question if it will do anything, but it's worth a try. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 13:01 (Agree/Disagree?) By all means please go ahead and draft something at least you have my signature. Also, I don't know if anyone has a copy of the BAR pub, burn after reading, about the hell hole they kept her and other teens at, in Macau. I think it would really be beneficial for the tns and YA's that are still in the Family if we could post it here for them to find. I think it would be a great link for the first page, so visitors could see what they did and what they are responsible for. All names except for the adults of course should be removed. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 14:48 (Agree/Disagree?) I suppose I've got one round left in me, I'll draft it. I don't have a copy of the BAR pub but I agree it would be powerful and I'll put out feelers. I don't mean to be a kill-joy, but it may be worth mentioning that this issue of apologizing and helping her has been brought up by myself with Zerby, Amsterdamnedasshole, and others of their "Criminals/Sociopaths R Us", butt bandit & assclown posse, repeatedly through the years. I think it's a wonderful idea to try again in force, and if anyone has suggestions about how to word it etc., that would be cool. A lot of people have brought this up to them, from second generation people, to defectors from their inner circle to people mentioning her in their last words on this planet, i.e. suicide notes/videos. What I'm trying to express is that these sociopaths haven't ever even issued a decent apology or acknowledgment of error in their personal hands-on treatment of her, and it's subsequent cascading effect on the way the rest of us were treated, so I'm very much at a loss as to what would give them any incentive to do anything other than what they've done so far, which is nothing/re-victimization. My experience in dealing with sociopaths of this caliber is that they have no concience or desire to do anything because it's right, humane, godly, zen-like, good carma inducing, responsible, compassionate, legal, or whatever terms one may choose to describe desirable/admirable human traits. I think a deceased friend put it aptly in a 2000 note to them explaining that they need the "2x4 donkey" treatment (brute force/raw consequence) (http://www.rickyrodriguez.net/documents/R_Rodriguez_29_May_00.pdf) to get anything through their head that they don't want to acknowledge, not least of which is this issue which puts the dagger in the belly of the beast, so to speak, in that the buck really can't be passed. A distillation of the above is that with these types of people (cult leadership) all you can do is pin them to the wall and give them no choice but to capitulate, and there's no means I know of (or am willing to employ) that effectively give them any incentive to do the right thing. If anyone has ideas, or approaches they think might work, I'd love to hear them. (reply to this comment)

From cheeks Thursday, February 28, 2008, 08:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't know where to begin, I would ask them first to respond or reply to the accusations. Starting with Bergs molestation, and continuing with her 'spiritual healing', I think specifics are the way to go with this. The times she was tied to a bed and beaten, who beat her, when she was flown to Macau, who she was shepherded by, the rooms she stayed in, the buckets she craped in, the floor she slept on, the beatings she endured and the months and months of silence restriction they put her on. They were the first ones to publish what they did I think they should now answer to it. Also we all know they were the ones that published that PAR pub, perhaps we demand that they republish it and post it here with their comments on whey they thought it was ok to treat a child/children in this manner. Also the other tns that were in the same Victor programs and are now out we could really use your help with this. You saw what they did and they did the same things to you. While I realize you have asked for monetary help in the past, I hope by us coming together and really exposing them in detail may help. It may also help if she has been diagnosed with PTSD to include that official diagnosis. Tell them we want an official response, we want a response from Kelly and Zerby, we don't want to hear some sort of idiotic response from Burrowitch, claiming she didn't know what happened. (reply to this comment)

From Amen! Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 13:23 (Agree/Disagree?) I would sign it as well. Perhaps the form could be made available online and it could be printed out, signed, and faxed back (or scanned and sent via e-mail). (reply to this comment)

From Falcon Monday, February 25, 2008, 10:33 (Agree/Disagree?) That, at least, is some positive action which I would happily support. You are right Cheeks, let's do it instead of continually displaying the dirty details of the poor woman's life like some kind of cheap celebrity smut magazine. (reply to this comment)

From I agree, Sunday, February 24, 2008, 16:55 (Agree/Disagree?) everyone has suffered and instead of just talking about it, something should be Done about it! (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Sunday, February 24, 2008, 14:59 (Agree/Disagree?) I didn't start the thread. My money is and will continue to be where my mouth is. If other people are helping, my hat goes off to them. I simply haven't seen it, except in a few cases of individuals stepping up etc. If that's interperetted as finger pointing, there's not much I can do about that.(reply to this comment)

From vacuous Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 07:24 (Agree/Disagree?) In accordance to one of the points Steam has raised, I feel only those responsible for these sorry state of affairs should ever feel a duty to help (not that there is much chance of that), ideally no one else should have to put any more of their money or time anywhere near the group or what it affected. Any feeling of entitlement to receiving help from anyone beyond the groups leadership and perhaps one's own parent's (who are at least partly responsible for our upbringing), is misplaced. While you have my sympathy, I certainly do not feel any sense of obligation to take on the burden of helping your situation or that of someone to whom I have no connection. Perhaps, in contrast to you, I have witnessed a good many people "stepping up", at the very very least to helping those within their immediate family (like you may have done), and often to assist many more than one sibling and then going beyond their immediate family. If people are willing to give of their time to try and help some state of affairs in a way they feel best then I respect this, whatever the manner in which they choose to do so (e.g. whether this is by raising awareness or whether it is through trying to institute child protection policies to assist those children still at risk). Ultimately persons 'helping' directly or indirectly and in any capacity or manner have my respect and congratulations, altruism cannot be dictated and should not be compared. From my (admittedly self-centred) end you can wait all you like and for an eternity for someone like me to help beyond sympathy. Don't be bitter about this, it is hard enough to help myself and spare an occasional thought for those nearest, to me your situation is just another misfortunate and melancholy consequence of abuse and improvidence with which every person is familiar of an example or two. Thus while I wish the best for your sister and hope for a positive outcome to all this, that is all that I will ever be prepared to do. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:55 (Agree/Disagree?) I agree with you. It's no one's responsibility other than the ones who caused the sorry state of affairs. I respect how difficult it is to help oneself, I have a great deal of respect for those who have helped themselves in an honest and self-reliant fashion, their siblings and gone beyond, for whatever "cause". You're right altruism cannot be dictated, not sure what you mean by, should not be compared, but okay, that too I suppose. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 14:51 (Agree/Disagree?) Thumbs down for saying "I agree?"!! Hee hee. (reply to this comment)

From Jedran Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 08:37 (Agree/Disagree?) I see you've read Atlas shrugged.(reply to this comment)

From vacuous Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 07:30 (Agree/Disagree?) Sorry for the faulty referencing, the point I was in accordance with was from cheeks.(reply to this comment)

From emgem Saturday, February 23, 2008, 15:13 (Agree/Disagree?) Is there no way that karen zerby, peter amsterdam or any of these monsters can be found & brought to justice?! how comes the authorities haven't done more? why is it that such a massive peadophilic, abusive, child trafficking ring can so easily operate worldwide under the cover of a fake religion, but when it's exposed, the authorities appear powerless to step in?!! i completely understand why ex-members would wish to turn their backs on religion completely & i apologise if i have offended anyone with what i have written, that is not my intention. Being a non member, I couldn't even try to imagine the horrors that went on but from all the research I have done, it seems worse than any horror movie i have ever come across. Afflick, thank you for your comment, i believe you are absolutely right that survivors should be able to concentrate on rebuilding their lives without us do gooders trying to push further religious views forward, & maybe I didn't fully acknowledge the content of Merry's mother's email prefering to focus on what she said about spiritual warfare. At the end of the day, there's absolutely no need to preach about Jesus & God anyway, as all the children who have suffered WILL be delivered in the end, even if they have turned their back on him due to their horrific experiences, because God knows everything and Justice will be served in this life or the next. From what (little) i know, david berg, in the end, confessed that he was consumed by his own demons and died from a lengthy illness, he is no doubt burning in hell for eternity now. As for myself, I'm from a completely atheist background, but have recently chosen to follow Christianity in seeking the truth and some kind of protection for me & my family from the evil in this world. I read a lot of books similar to "Not without my Sister", of true accounts of children that have suffered unimaginably & am studying to become a social worker to help abused kids. I've always believed that all child abusers are sent by the devil himself & i know that one person can't change the world ...maybe God, Angels, the devil,demons etc don't exist but even on the slimmest chance that they do, i want to do everything i can, however small & seemingly insignificant, to stand up & fight against the evil in this world, against the devil. To read & hear about these things that have happened & do nothing (or refuse to listen because it's "too horrific"), in my eyes makes people as bad as the abusers. These monsters will continue to get away with their behaviour until "normal" every day people acknowledge that it happens and do something about it. So if there's ANYTHING i could do to help... In the meantime, my prayers are with all the children and survivors and especially Merry.(reply to this comment)

From steam Monday, February 25, 2008, 08:55 (Agree/Disagree?) You seem like a caring individual, with a compassionate heart, but just think about how useful/useless those prayers are for the victims of these situations. Is God only going to help them if someone prays? Not if he has at least as much concern as a human like yourself does. -And then the crux of it. Does God help them whether or not people pray? Look around for your answer. You intimated that at least a decent part of your decision to turn to God was for some kind of protection for yourself and your family. Even if God existed, evidence suggests that he is not a very effective talisman. You were raised in an atheist background, was it with people who seriously considered the issues and came to well considered opinions on faith or lack thereof, or was it with people who simply had no interest in such matters so you never had a thorough delve into all the issues at stake? Anyway, all the best to you and I hope you and your family are protected from the horrors that happen in this world.(reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Saturday, February 23, 2008, 14:50 (Agree/Disagree?) Saying little of how she's faring is very much on purpose. For a very long time, every little morsel of gossip about her has been made fodder for a bunch of gossipping etc. ... The interesting thing about the post is that it wasn't posted by our mother, but rather taken from an email. So I think it's wise no to have said much. She's spent a large part of the last 3 years in and out of jail, battling demons of the past and meth addiction. During that time her mother and I visited. Dealing with the aftermath of the damage has been incredibly painful. Through the years, everyone and their brother has approached me, trying to get information or show up with a camera to interview her. She deserves privacy. At this point she's doing better than I've seen her do in years, not great by any standards but better. She wants to forget her past. I don't see her achieving much in life other than staying clean this time. She may surprise me though. For someone who is a registered nurse and holds a B.S. in Psychology, out mother defininitely has some strange ideas which I view as somewhat of a retreat from a painful reality. However, she has tried to be present for her children, when everyone had abandoned my sister she went to jail regularly, endured all the shame associated with being the mother who in the eyes of many has been pre-judged for failing to protect her children, and has tried to do what little she can to make ammends for a past where she trusted the wrong people at the wrong time with horrible consequences for her children. When we approached a lot of people to help with a documentary, she was the only one who stood up. That will always mean something to my sisters and I. There are so many lessons that can be drawn from my sister's ordeal. What will always stand out to me is that she stood up and never said uncle. Through all the beating, humiliations she stuck to her guns when others capitulated and were beaten into submission. She paid the price. That model of standing up, forming and opinion and being willing to pay the price of adhering to it, will always draw respect from me. However, the abuse and years of coping with sociopaths, have taken their toll, she suffers from many psychological disorders and the result of the abuse that make her an emotional if not physical danger to herself and others. She suffers serious relationship impairment and has severly arrested emotional development. A weaker person, though, would have capitulated to the final despair years ago. She deserves privacy and peace going forward. It still enrages me that such horrific crimes can be perpetrated against innocents and the perpetrators dance free. (reply to this comment)

From Friend of Bill Sunday, February 24, 2008, 06:00 (Agree/Disagree?) "I don't see her achieving much in life other than staying clean this time." Given all the damage that was done to Merry's limbic system during critical phases in her brain development, staying clean & sober is a monumental achievement. It should be applauded, and if recovery from addiction is the only thing she ever achieves, she will have lived a worthy life. Never minimize a commitment to sobriety as something "other" than a major lifetime achievement. Staying clean, btw, is not the same thing as recovery. She may not stay clean "this time," but she may continue to work her recovery and put together longer and longer periods of sobriety as a consequence. For people with major mental illnesses and addiction, recovery isn't an all or nothing achievement that can be measured by an uninterrupted episode of abstinence. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Sunday, February 24, 2008, 06:40 (Agree/Disagree?) It's not my intention to minimize that achievement, it's altogether possible that she'll do incredibly well by any standards. Regardless of what she achieves or doesn't, she has my unconditional love. I would really like for there to be no further discussion of her or my family in this forum. Then again, I'm not one for attempting to control information flow. So it is what it is. It was probably wrong for me to react to this post in the first place. But obviously this is something that's very close to my heart. It's very easy to be on the outside of a situation like this and read some private email and then offer up some opinion. It's very difficult to have dealt with these issues so intimately for decades. It's a very complicated, painful and extremely sad situation, just horrible. I wouldn't wish this situation on my worst enemy. I wish my mom was less of a nut, it's easy to poke fun at her, very difficult to be her, and she has come through for Merry during times when no one else has. As have all the members of my family. Enough is enough. If people want to help, I'm waiting, my sister is waiting, talk is cheap, and it helps no one. For the time being at least, she has a roof over her head, she's not incarcerated, she's sober, she's not in an abusive relationship and she appreciates that her family has stood by her and up for her. I see her regularly as does my mother. All of her siblings from my mother have done more than siblings should be expected to do. I wish my mom didn't send emails to untrustworthy gossip mongers, but what can I do? Out of whatever respect people may or may not have for my sister and I, please, no more on this subject. (reply to this comment)

From Friend of Bill Sunday, February 24, 2008, 08:18 (Agree/Disagree?) Although I took your comments about Merry as an excuse to post, the topic wasn't really about her or your mother. My topic was sobriety and recovery, and my concern is that you don't get it with regard to the one person over whom you have any control--i.e., yourself. Addiction is a cunning, powerful, and baffling disease, and I'm saying this as someone with a major mental illness, a lengthy history of polysubstance abuse, and a narcissistic mother who molested me as a child. I know quite a lot about living with "very complicated, extremely painful, and sad situations." Take care of YOUR SELF, bro. The person most in need of your unconditional love is YOU. There are people in this world, such as myself, who have little else to offer you but words of encouragement, strength, and hope. Please don't confuse that with "cheap talk." Have you thought about going to a meeting today instead of staying online and engaging with toxic pals like "gossip-mongers-anonymous"--?(reply to this comment)

From steam Monday, February 25, 2008, 08:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Friend of bill. I have no idea who "Bill" is but on this discussion thread here it seems to me that jailbird has been very thoughtful and expressed things well. It seems that he really has a right to his points and comments from those who are not intimately involved have a high likelyhood of being misinformed, well meaning or not. I see you have overcome much in your own life so I hesitate to say anything, but if your intentions were to offer jailbird words of encouragement strenght and hope I would observe that they did not strike me as an outsider in that way. In fact your last sentence feels condescending and sarcastic. I wish you all the best, and hope that my comment will only be taken as an obsevation from an outsider as to how your comments seem to come across whatever their intent.(reply to this comment)

From I agree, Monday, February 25, 2008, 09:29 (Agree/Disagree?) with you steam. He has been "thoughtful and expressed things well." (reply to this comment)

From gossip-monger-anonymous Sunday, February 24, 2008, 07:32 (Agree/Disagree?) While your sister deserves peace and privacy with all due respect, the majority of the gossip and information I now possess on this matter has been taken from your comments. While Emgem may have drawn questionable conclusions from a perhaps, ill-judged posting, it is mainly yourself who has provided a detailed history of the tribulations and 'problems' you have gone through on behalf of your sister, and by so doing, exposed her current situation to everyone else. (reply to this comment)

From Jailbird Sunday, February 24, 2008, 08:05 (Agree/Disagree?) When my emotions get involved it's difficult for me to watch everything I say. The difficulties, problems and tribulations are not the result of the person, my sister, but of what she went through. The suffering goes on years or decades after the assault. You'll excuse me if I'm defensive when my mother and others are basically accused of inaction, or failing to provide something other than "Jesus," that's very unfair, the history being what it is, and what a lot of people have gone through to attempt to help with the means available. Of course if people want to help, like I said, we're waiting. I think I've earnt the right to say what I feel is appropriate about my flesh and blood. That's very different from a unrelated 3rd party posting, and someone else. Perhaps I'm wrong to respond. I am human, and this hurts like hell. Fear, anger, sorrow, shame, extreme pain. I should know better than engaging anonymous people on this board. Arghhh, sigh, whatever. ....(reply to this comment)