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from dave Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 15:43 (Agree/Disagree?) True. As a kid and especially during my teen years, I never did understand how we could believe in a "loving god" when such horrific events like the Holocaust happened. If "god" and Jesus are all-knowing, ever-present why would they ALLOW these sad things to happen? For years while in the cult, I would try to convince myself (and people I met while out 'witenssing') that it's not god's fault, he letting 'man' have his free choice. Berg said if god would put a stop to the evil in the world, he would be "interfering with the whole process and the expiremnent". What crap. If there really is a god he would have prevented that little girl (and so many others) from being horribly tortured and murdered. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, August 15, 2002, 16:24 (Agree/Disagree?) If you do not want to be “preached to”, do not read this comment. There is a difference between preaching and stating one’s opinion in an open forum such as this site; however, this unlikeness is often not seeing. Consider this a fair warning. Good points you both have. I often asked myself how a large number of Jews can continually believe in their god after centuries of tragedy. OK, so they got Israel in 1947/48, but it’s hardly the “Promised Land”, as they’re still being exterminated by the week. I know several very intelligent Jews who are atheist for a number of reasons, this being one of them. And what’s the deal with a large percent of the black American population being extremely Christian? Don’t they know that the Bible condones slavery (in both the Old & New Testaments)? Should we stop believing in God because we face unexplained tragedy? No, if she/he/it indeed is real! However, the facts show otherwise. How is one to believe in anything that is contradictory in nature? Let’s say that I describe an object to you in the following manner: 1. It is a shape with all points the same distance from its center. It is named by its center 2. If you measure the distance around it and divide it by the distance across it through its center, you will always come close to a particular value, depending upon the accuracy of your measurement. This value is approximately 3.14159265358979323846... We use the Greek letter (Pi) to represent this value. Using computers. 3. The radius of this object is the distance from its center to a point on the object. If you place two radii end-to-end in this object, you would have the same length as one diameter. So its diameter is twice as long as its radius. This relationship is expressed in the following formula: D = 2 • R where D is the diameter and R is the radius. You would no doubt realize that I have just given the characteristics (or nature) of a circle. Now, if I were to conclude by saying that my object is a hexagon, my claim would be false, based on what are currently accepted as algebra rules. Similarly, the various accepted and unaccepted characteristics of any god, in any and every religion, are false. As far as the Judeo-Christian god is concerned, the Bible is the primary source of his existence and nature, yet the attributes it gives him are in sharp contrast to the nature it also gives him, to put it mildly. We when hear the various descriptions god we think of one thing, when we hear of his acts we think of another. Several assumptions can result from this discussion, two of which are, 1) God exists, but the authors of the Bible were mistaken in their description of Him, 2) God cannot possibly exist given all that “know” about him. In the first case, we allow for human error. We all know that both circles and hexagons exist, simply because I get my formulas confused, this does not negate either’s existence. However, they key word is either. Either it is a circle or a hexagon (or any other shape), it cannot be both (especially, not at the same time). There are fundamental problems with the god of the Bible, and every idea of any god or higher being. These gods attempt to be both, which is logically impossible. If God existed he would not allow these horrible things to happen, and chances are I would believe in him. The fact is that horrible things do happen and god does not exist outside of the human imagination, never did and never will. I could answer all the pro-God arguments, but this comment is far too long as is, so I’ll just have to wait and trust the Lord. Regards! (reply to this comment)

From jpmagero Thursday, August 15, 2002, 17:09 (Agree/Disagree?) i like what you said, I am still to fresh is leaving the grp to say that I don't believe in God plain and simple, but I definately have problems with the "nature" that has been acredited to him. The way I've always seen it, we give him the name god because we have to call it something. We could call it "the force" since that's what it really is. Something that exists in all of us and everything that is and it is whatever we understand it to be. There are many different aspects of it that we do not see or understand. We cannot say that all the religions in the world are wrong or right. I think that the whole notion of the "spirit world" comes down to perception. It's simply a dimension we are not aware of. Like science. If thousands of years ago someone had come up with a car or computer or even a light bulb for that matter, they would have been labeled as a magician, god, prophet witch or who knows what else. Simply because it would have beyond everyone's comprehension that such a thing could exist or have a logical explanation. Now, we see it as something that a scientist somewhere understands and that's that. We accept it. Maybe we just haven't been able to get to that level of knowledge yet. And once we do, we will know everything there is to know and then that would put us on the same level as "god" (aka complete knowledge). It's in the bible, once they got the knowledge of good and evil, they would be like god. So god had(has) full knowledge of good and evil since. Which means that any knowledge (or the execution of the knowledge) of evil came from guess who. This doesn't exactly follow a single logical thread, but I'm in the middle of answering phone calls at work so my thoughts keep getting messed up, but basically, those are my "thoughts" on the matter. Not to belittle what you said, but how does the name come from the center (of the circle)? Take care(reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, August 15, 2002, 18:11 (Agree/Disagree?) I know just what you mean when speaking of what may seem like magic (e.g. the concept of a computer thousands of years ago), something that is beyond our current perception, but yet possible in the future. On the other hand, once something is explained logically, the initial “magical aspect” should fade with understanding, theoretically. There are many things of which I have absolutely no concept or knowledge of and never will; however, these things may be common and accepted hundreds of years after my eventual death. Yet these concepts must surely follow certain basics “absolutes” or laws. I cannot imagine that there ever was nor ever shall be a time when 2+2 > AND = to the square root of 10,000, but I guess, for argument sake, I could be wrong. If we are able to speak of the whole notion of the "spirit world" dimension coming down to perception, wouldn’t that necessarily make us aware of it? Or is it possible to speak of that which we are unaware of? Perhaps you meant we are aware of it but our understanding of it is incorrect? Thanks JP. (reply to this comment)

From Anthony Thursday, August 15, 2002, 17:19 (Agree/Disagree?) My bad, I was originally going to compare two circles and 3 hexagons, but changed my mind mid-way. I was going to draw diagrams and place the names in the center. Good observation.(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Friday, August 16, 2002, 06:19 (Agree/Disagree?) Anthony, you said "the Bible is the primary source of [God's] existence", but people believed in God long before even its first books (the Torah -- possibly Job) were written. Besides, the Bible as we know it today is only about 500 years old. You also said "[When we] hear the various descriptions [of] god we think of one thing, when we hear of his acts we think of another". I believe the problem is that the acts we hear about are wrongfully attributed to God or "the force", as JP pointed out. Although your explaination using the descriptions of a cirlce was good, Anthony, from what I gather it looks like you're trying to explain God's existance or the lack thereof by using logic (something I attempted to do and failed at in previous posts on this site). It just doesn't work, seeing as our little human brains are so small we cannot even fully grasp the interior functions of our environment much less life. It's also interesting to note that the object descriptions you gave for the circle could just as well be applied to a sphere; an object with the same basic shape, but in 3D, hence an "enhanced" circle, if you will; another shape, yet possessing many of the same properties. You concluded about your explainations that "These gods attempt to be both, which is logically impossible" ... by what standards? The form of logic we as humans are familiar with may be just a fraction of all the logic in the universe and beyond it. If the possiblity exists that there are laws of nature which have not been discovered by man, then it would be reasonable to assume the same with other forms of logic (or enhanced forms of logic -- as with the circle/sphere example)? Anthony, you made a good point when you said "once something is explained logically, the initial “magical aspect” should fade with understanding". Likewise, when in another dimension than the four we are currently limited to, we may apprehend a comprehensive understanding of those things which once seemed inexplicable. I do not believe that the human flesh-and-blood brain will never comprehend anything outside of its realm no matter how advanced its development. What I'm trying to say is that we humans look at our world as if it was everything. In the future, afterlife, heaven, another dimension, continuation of the flow of energy, whatever you wish to call it (mortals will never have the perfectly fitting word for it anyway), we may look back on previous traumatic experiences and realise that it was nothing more than the equivalent of a stubbed toe -- painful at the moment, but eventually forgotten. I know that this probably makes me sound like one of the "big picture people" without sympathy for those who experience these horrors, but that is not the case. I have two daughters of my own and live in constant dread that a nightmare such as those taking place daily around the globe will choose to make my family its next victim. If the mere thought of such an event causes me so much pain, how much more so those or whom it is a reality?(reply to this comment)

From jpmagero Thursday, August 15, 2002, 17:38 (Agree/Disagree?) That would have been interesting. Like i said, just an observation, not to take anything away from what you said.(reply to this comment)