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Reader's comments on this article Add a new comment on this article |  from JudasChrist
Friday, September 05, 2003 - 16:22
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hahaha. No U didn't "Blame Canada"?!..Harsh.
I have NO problems with the Canadians or any race whatsoever.
Well maybe the Scrape-Backs, but NO offense 2 ANY race as a whole. Hey, I like the Hispanics but sliding under the barb-wire is getting pretty old. Stay in Ur damn country, try and take over Guatamala or some other country, make Ur country work. EVERY State in this country is self-sufficiant if they want 2 be, and hella' smaller than Mexicocolala . If Ur an HONEST person coming (Like My Asian Brothers), 2 get an education thatn that's kewl. Not 2 litter the streets an whine about how U work so hard.
I agree, there was a slew of Canadians in Leadership positions in the Kult. Pissed off people, little do we Americans know. I mean, why did they have those positions? Do boss dumb-ass hippie Americans around!!!! "Hart" ,"Gary" and many more.
I gotta' give it 2 em. Had control little did we know! AHHHHH, the Canadians R taking over (VIA controling American Kults).
Hahahahahaha. Some of my best friends be of Canadian blood. Just talking shit!.
--JudasChrist...
(reply to this comment)
| from Ne Oublie
Monday, September 01, 2003 - 06:54
  (Agree/Disagree?)
What I find interesting about this, and other, comments from many ex-members is that it seems to be 'The Family' all over again! Our parents were about our age when the Family started out, and they looked at their own parents and were disgusted at what they considered to be hypocracy, and the injustices which were being committed in their name. (This wasn't just the Family - but essentially the whole hippy movement.)
They reacted by 'declaring war' on 'the System' and basically shunning everything to do with what they considered to be an evil and corrupt society. It was this mentality which allowed for the events which their children now blame them. Our parents looked at society and saw it's evils, and so were willing to try all kinds of things which they otherwise would have considered to be taboo - often ONLY because it was considered taboo, so they figured that a society which was so bad MUST be wrong about that too.
I now see that same attitude in a lot of ex-members, they look at their parents, and The Family, and see what they consider to be hypocracy and injustice, and so have shunned anything to do with their parents or The Family. They think that because The Family was so evil that everything that it stands for must also be evil, and so we find examples such as this chat, where children are rude and insulting to their parents.
The way I see it, it is equally as fanatical, but the opposite side of the spectrum to The Family - what's next? A new 'anti-Family cult'?
(reply to this comment)
| | | |  From SirRantalot
Thursday, September 04, 2003, 11:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
What I think with my parents, and many flower power hippies who became Family members, is they never really rebelled when they joined TF. Sure they had their rebellious stint when they took acid and tried some eastern religion, but the Christian meme and western civilization programming was imbedded too deep within them, so with TF, they simply returned to what they subconsciously thought was right all along.
Remember the “Revolutionary Rules”? Sounds like a reactionary orthodox Christian movement with some fluffy new age flavor, how about “Who are the Rebels?”. Deep down inside, the establishment was imbedded far too deep into even the most radical hippie’s psyche. Due to memetic and social programming they always, as hippies felt like they were rebelling and being naughty, just like adolescents feel when they start having sex or a first forbidden smoke. They were the weak hippies, the ones that took flower power as a fashion movement and summer movement, nothing more the hedonistic “sex, drugs and rock’n’roll” slogan. Then, perhaps a scare on acid (probably simply due to them taking far too much for way too much time), or repressed feelings of guilt and estrangement from the society that breed them set in. Since most of them were followers, not leaders, when the movement died down, they started to lose faith in rock’n’roll, most would not have rebelled in the first place if it hadn’t been for the rebellion of friends and acquaintances who looked like they were having a lot more fun than them. What ignorant, submissive sheep!
We all know how hard it is to completely be free from faith, especially when raised in such a strong Christian environment. Yes, you may consciously reject it and your new-found reasoning mind will laugh at it, but for a long time afterwards, you sometimes get that nagging feeling that you’re turning your back on God. You feel you want to do the right thing, you feel that you are rebelling, doing the wrong thing intentionally. TF offered a compromise to these weak and confused kids, most away from home for the first time. On one hand Berg railed against the obvious evils of the World, which were undeniably wrong, on the other hand he offered them a revised version of the religion of the God of their fathers, the hateful Demiurge, so now they could still feel one with this God that they learned about in Sunday school. On the other hand, as I stated earlier, they were sheep with slave mentality, their rebellion didn’t give them a backbone, they didn’t consolidate their rebellion through research and study, they wandered around aimlessly getting high and dressing badly, ever more lost and estranged from what they once held dear, childhood memories coming as flashbacks. All they needed was some charismatic fool to come around with your perfect hybrid of a religion, a rebellion, and a worldview that explained everything, that’s what Berg brought them.
After the ‘60s, people in the West got smart ("Hardened to the Word" we would say in TF), bogus NRMs don’t make us question all our acquired values anymore. That’s when TF moved their efforts to lesser developed countries: South America, Asia, Mid-west USA. While I wouldn’t consider Russia less intellectually developed, TF moved their efforts their immediately after the fall of communism because atheism had been the imposed state religion, and everyone wanted to be in line with the latest fads from the west. Also, because of strict laws regarding religion in Russia, after ’91, for a Russian to be stopped on the street and given a religious tract was a novelty to him, and he listened carefully. In other words, there was a virgin market to be exploited.
I found that to consolidate my initial teenage rebellion into what I now call my awakening, plenty of research and study was necessary. I saw where my parents rebellion went wrong, and I saw that one of the main problems was the fact that they considered it a rebellion. I call it awakening, and it does not simply mean choosing another political party like they did, it means getting to the cause of the problem: ignorance. I can thank my parents for my awakening, which started from when I was 14 and was given access to the internet. I find this the biggest tool available to us for the free, uncensored exchange of ideas. The half-asleep masses are in that condition due to ignorance, due to the mental flattening of the TV. I have hope for the future though, just think, 200 years ago most of us would have been illiterate farmers, with not even a fraction of the cultural and intellectual knowledge we have now. I hope the proliferation of the internet will accelerate the advancement of the masses, and will counter the negative effects of television.
On the subject of memes, mind control, and true freedom I would recommend these books:
From Faith to Reason – Dawkins.
The Invisibles – Grant Morrison.
The Meme Machine – Susan Blackmore.
Liber Kaos – Pete Carroll.
Or, check out this web site: www.barbelith.com (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Eaglebleeds
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 01:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anyone that chooses to be in a group and follow the leader is basically saying "I need to be told what to believe". And thats where all sorts of abuse come in. TF is political. And they actually are pretty smart. They`ve managed to keep so many members even with their ridiculous beliefs. Like, no reading non family literature, discouraging web surfing, discouraging open mindedness, and the worst is discouraging to think for your self. What they say is, "This is ok, but it`s not the best", and if you by your own faith do the opposite then there is tons of letters to place guilt, etc..... I was telling my parents that all the News flashes(not sure what they`re called in TF) are full of bull****. They look flashy and WOW but if compared to other groups it`s nothing. Activated is no where near being the biggest Christian mag in the world and will never come close. And all these new revelations they think only TF has is totally false too. It`s just TF members don`t research the truth for themselves. They believe whatever is printed. Once you start seeing the truth and exploring you realise that you should leave. For some this is total relief, like myself, but for others that can`t deal with it start believing they`re "outofit". And of course when they tell someone in TF the answer we`ll be, "How about desperate prayer?". When maybe the Lord is trying to open they`re eyes and take`m to where they`re really supposed to be in the world. Humans need to choose for themself and their own faith. Groups, cults, and the rest of`m are all their for the top to control and make money to live comfortably with what they enjoy doing. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From neez
Thursday, September 04, 2003, 22:35
(Agree/Disagree?)
& where did I say you said I said you said(etc) that? & I'm guessing you missed the point I was making.. you docile fool.
You & Nooblie could start your own webpage with all the dumb shit you 2 spout.. You guys should hook up.
Noob will keep on talking long after no ones listening, & you can just keep on backing him up with comments of the 'I agree with moron' variety. So you'll have plenty of content in the first half hour.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Eaglebleeds
Friday, September 05, 2003, 22:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
I didn`t say I couldn`t think of anything. I said the only thing I have to say to you is that you`re a waste of time. You`re ridiculous. You`re high on something way too often. You should try coming on this site when you can think clear and then maybe you`ll understand what you read. How old are you? 15,16 or just too Australian white trash. And what does my picture got to do with it? I`d say you`re just pissed off that you`re so damn ugly. You constantly misread what I write. Your reply will probably be something like, where did I say you said or some bull like that. So teenagerish. Get a life, man and grow up. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Eaglebleeds
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 01:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
Anyone that chooses to be in a group and follow the leader is basically saying "I need to be told what to believe". And thats where all sorts of abuse come in. TF is political. And they actually are pretty smart. They`ve managed to keep so many members even with their ridiculous beliefs. Like, no reading non family literature, discouraging web surfing, discouraging open mindedness, and the worst is discouraging to think for your self. What they say is, "This is ok, but it`s not the best", and if you by your own faith do the opposite then there is tons of letters to place guilt, etc..... I was telling my parents that all the News flashes(not sure what they`re called in TF) are full of bull****. They look flashy and WOW but if compared to other groups it`s nothing. Activated is no where near being the biggest Christian mag in the world and will never come close. And all these new revelations they think only TF has is totally false too. It`s just TF members don`t research the truth for themselves. They believe whatever is printed. Once you start seeing the truth and exploring you realise that you should leave. For some this is total relief, like myself, but for others that can`t deal with it start believing they`re "outofit". And of course when they tell someone in TF the answer we`ll be, "How about desperate prayer?". When maybe the Lord is trying to open they`re eyes and take`m to where they`re really supposed to be in the world. Humans need to choose for themself and their own faith. Groups, cults, and the rest of`m are all their for the top to control and make money to live comfortably with what they enjoy doing. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Rhea Durr
Monday, September 01, 2003, 22:09
(Agree/Disagree?)
I read something about today in a book review of "The Known World," a novel about a black man who owned slaves.
This passage from that review reminds me of my upbringing:
"Among the many triumphs of ''The Known World,'' not the least is Jones's transformation of a little-known footnote in history into a story that goes right to the heart of slavery. There are few certified villains in this novel, white or black, because slavery poisons moral judgments at the root. As Jones shows, slavery corrupts good intentions and underwrites bad ones, yet allows decency the odd occasion -- but only by creating such an enormous need for it."
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From Jules
Monday, September 01, 2003, 22:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
I was not commenting on advantages or disadvantages of life in or out of the Family. As I understood your comment, you were not just referring to what people think of their parents, but their opinion of the society they grew up in and their way of expressing those opinions and choosing a different life.
Something else to consider is that it was a very very very small percentage of our parent's generation that chose to join the Family. Comparatively, over half of us born into the Family left when we were old enough to do so.
I agree that patterns do repeat themselves. My sisters and I have often commented on this. My grandmother left the UK after WWII and went to Canada with her young husband, with the severe disapproval of her mother. My mother joined the Family, which horrified her parents, and they have never let her forget it. My siblings and I have all left or are planning to leave, which our parents are not happy about.
It's likely that my children will one day choose a lifestyle that is very different from my own. I hope that I can accept their choices and let them know that a parent's love is unconditional and that their lives are their own. I think that if I can do this, that's where the cycle is broken. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 04:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Again Jules, take my comments in perspective! I'm talking about the experiences of a select few: specifically, those whose lives have been affected by membership in the Family. Within the confines of this 'group' I was commenting on the repeated trend of a total break from the society in which one was raised. The direction in which the individual was moving is irrelevent, as are the reasons for their break.
I agree 100% with your last paragraph, that the key to breaking this 'cycle' is mutual respect! Children will always be rebellious, and will often make choices with which their parents disagree, however if the parents will respect their children, and support them in their choices, then eventually their kids will come around and will reciprocate that respect.
I'm glad that's the way I have always been treated by my parents, which is the reason why I will publicly defend them - not because I agree with them 100%, but because I RESPECT them!(reply to this comment) |
| | From fcuk
Wednesday, September 03, 2003, 03:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
I can barely describe the exception I take to your above remarks. You sound like one of my younger sisters (still in “TF”) who thinks she’s right because she “respects her parents” and has quite obviously been influenced to view me (and other ex-Fam SG’s) as a rebellious, “out of it” individual, chiefly for the fact that I openly disagree with my parents. Firstly, it should be noted that disagreeing (and/ or agreeing) with your parents means nothing in itself, except that it is evidence of an obvious communication (and yes, “respect”) breakdown.
Your whole actual (and I dare say pathetic) argument seems to be one which would be easily summarised by the following two contradictory yet equally types of common comments:
“Little Mary wants to be just like her mother.”
Or,
“Little Mary wants to be anything but like her mother.”
- In my opinion, not worth any serious discussion. However you seem to really care personally what little Mary thinks about her mother. The way I look at it is if you personally have no problem with the way your parents raised you in “The Family”, and can in fact “respect” them whilst looking at them straight then just do so, don’t expect the same from people who can’t.
Personally, I would love to be able to respect and have a relationship with my parents. In fact it tears my heart out that each and everything they say seems to come from the latest “loving Jesus” revelation, or some absurd belief system, it’s all about what’s good for the group (or good for “god” in their minds), not as genuine parents trying to be just that, parents. Speaking of which, tell me, where were my parents when my sister had to face court on 3 serious charges 2 weeks ago. Where were they when she was taken to jail in the middle of the night 2 years ago when she was pregnant? Where were they when she needed someone to pay her bail? – I’ll tell you where they were, they were across the world busy applying the “Loving Jesus” revolution whilst paying tithes to child abusing Zerby and Co, and “ministering” to the types of people who would probably use and abuse my family (being westerners), if given the chance. They are happy to devote all their time to the types of people who would rather be blowing us all up if they could, than try and keep their own daughter out of jail.
While you ramble on and on about “mutual respect” as if its something primarily us as kids should be showing to our parents, tell me was it “mutual respect” from our parents when they:
Forced us to learn and practice their strange religious beliefs (including sexual practices), during times when we should have been enjoying our childhood and getting an adequate education?
When they forced us to sell religious pamphlets and other materials to support them. When we had to busk (aka Beg) with a big smile as if we enjoyed it, often on pain of punishment otherwise?
When they tried to make sure all that we learnt would be something we could “use” for the group, to add to their lives, their slavery system, and not something that would allow us to live independent lives out side of it?
When they took us away from contact with our legitimate Grandparents and relatives, ensuring we had little or no relationship with them, and in fact most times depicting them as evil or “ungodly” people?
When they continue to deny us “mutual respect”, and neglect to make genuine efforts to make up for the large mistakes and errors of their past and who refuse to denounce a group and its members who have harmed their own children?
No, I will not show ANYONE respect of ANY nature when they intentionally harm or cause harm (by action or neglect) to my personal family. That includes my parents. In my opinion, they do not act like genuine parents, rather their mentality is that of scavengers, parasites who try to dictate their way of life with a ferocity equalling a modern day Spanish Inquisition. This mixed in with sickening paedophilic perversions (they pretend to decry), who try to use Biblical Scriptures to not only excuse their twisted tendances but hide behind “religious persecution” to ensnare and coerce their children to accept and adopt their foul behaviour.
No, there will be no “mutual respect” until there has been “mutual restitution” for their misdeeds, and until they are sorry enough to cry and beg for forgiveness, whilst binding themselves to actually help their children succeed at their own lives!
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, September 03, 2003, 04:40
 (Agree/Disagree?)
Actually Jules, the more I think about that first statement of yours the more I disagree with it - at least for myself.
Trust and respect are not things which I give easily, rather one must EARN my respect. Therefore, once that respect has been earned, I will not withdraw it that easily, essentially, they must prove themselves consistently unworthy of my trust.
The way I see it trust is not a matter of respecting someone's actions, so much as respecting their motivation. Thus, even when someone I trust does something 'wrong' the fact that I trust them means that I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and will believe 'their side' of the story. (Note that this does not exempt them from blame, or even retribution for their actions - trust is between myself and them, no one else.)
In order for someone to lose my trust they must prove themselves unworthy of it - which would most likely entail repeated abuse of that trust, usually commeasurate to the amount of trust I have in them. I won't lose my trust in them all at once, rather it'll be chipped away bit by bit.
Ok, before you all gang up on me, I was talking here in the general sense, and the only comment this is relevent to is this one of Jules' which I am responding to. So don't try and lecture me about all the bad stuff your parents have done to you and all that, because that is NOT what I'm getting at with this.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Ne Oublie
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 09:02
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm the oldest in my family, both my siblings are considerably younger than me.
I'm not going to hypothesise on what their reaction would have been under different circumstances, or at another point in their lives, because at the end of the day it would be pure conjecture, and it would not be right of me to form opinions of them based on how I think they would have reacted to an event which never happened.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Tim R
Monday, September 01, 2003, 17:18
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hey, let's give our grandparents generation credit, they could at least support themselves, and they gave their kids an education.
The Family are nothing but a group of parasites, they "Hate the System" and are so "Dropped out" but then they depend on Systemites do go to work to give them donations so they can survive. They don't pay taxes, but they use society's infrastructure and law enforcement to keep safe and to transport themselves. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Tim R
Monday, September 01, 2003, 20:38
(Agree/Disagree?)
Actually, there are a lot of people opposed to the Family that I disagree with, many of the so-called "Anti-cult" organizations are just fundamentalist christians trying to stamp out competition.
I disagree with anyone who opposes the Family for doctrinal reasons. I oppose them for purely legal and ethical reasons. I don't care what they believe, it's what they do that bothers me. (reply to this comment) |
| | From ChrisBadAss
Monday, September 01, 2003, 17:03
(Agree/Disagree?)
I agree. Moving on is a breeding ground for zombies.
If movingon's parents were anti-family...I bet most most movingon here would be pro-family.
Jules is partially to blame (NB I warned her about this before), for not encouraging free-thought and mind breaking patterns and we seem to get a checkerboard reaction were everyone is roughly thinking along the same parallel and symmetrical lines.
The family is merely another bi-product of the 60's, and all that is happening is that the overall cultural trend is being repeated.
And even if you don't agree with me...you should at least consider my point before you comment.
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From frmrjoyish
Monday, September 01, 2003, 22:59
(Agree/Disagree?)
I can't speak for everyone, but this site didn't form my opinions, beliefs, or lack of beliefs! By finding this site, I mearly found a place where I could express what, up until a few months ago, had been carefully supressed for years.
While you have a point about your "leaving the nest" syndrome, I think to sum up what we all went through and are still going through to just opposing our parents for the sake of opposing our parents completly belittles what we've gone through as a result of our parents choices. It also doesn't take into account the strides we've made in becoming our own persons and individuals!
This site, just by it's existence, has done more to encourage free speech than anything we experienced in our childhood! If we are all guilty, as you say, of parallel thinking, would you even consider the fact that it's due to our parallel upbringing? While there are certain things most of us agree on, if you peruse this site you'll find many topics which inspire heated debate between individuals who agree on some things but disagree on others. Hardly a good definition for a zombie breeding ground!!!!
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Eaglebleeds
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 01:56
(Agree/Disagree?)
This site definitely didn`t form my opinions either. Actually it seems most on this site differ in opinion and beliefs. This site has been a place to find out the truth, share my thoughts and beliefs, get opposing views and see how others that left are doing. It`s not a place to find new doctrines or what to do, for me. Since leaving it`s not easy to meet someone that`ll understand my past. Actually only know of one who does and thats because he`s worked with alot of kids that grew up in Christian groups, cults, pastor and missionaries kids. Here there`s others who grew up the same way I did, indoctrinated the same way and now are doing it there way. I left a long time ago though so, maybe for those who recently left this site is different to them. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Hmmm
Monday, September 01, 2003, 21:26
(Agree/Disagree?)
You’re a dumb shit, and you don’t even know it!
As I am capable of admitting when I have slurred someone in error I’ll give you a chance to prove I’m wrong by answering the following questions:
Are you actually saying that Jules, and/ or a majority of Ex- Fam SGA’s are as closed minded as members The Family”? – If so please qualify why you think those who left (in many cases fled) an apocalyptic cult with admittedly non-mainstream beliefs are “closed minded” for doing so, and for disliking the way the ideas were forced on them as children.
It would seem that whether we like it or not we are a “product” of our parents, but that the level each person emulates or takes after their parents is subject to their own choices and other reasons including perhaps, genetics. How are Ex-Fam SGA’s any more of a product (or bi-product) of their parents (or indeed any era or socio-political time period) than anyone else.
Do you think that simply because someone dislikes the general ideas, actions or lifestyles of for example “Hippies”, “Bikie gangs”, “Apocalyptic Cults”, or “Military Dictatorships”, or disagrees with their beliefs after having had them forced on them, means they are “closed minded” and “ignorant” individuals?
Does speaking out against a group who intentionally withholds education from children make someone as “ignorant” as the group who does so?
(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | From Jules
Monday, September 01, 2003, 22:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Again Ne Oublie, the Family is really an insignificant blip in the overall cultural and sociological trends of western society, so to say that the overall cultural trend of the sixties is being repeated is overdoing it a bit. Don't believe the hype about fanatical exmembers and get to know some of them a bit before you make such sweeping statements. For even the most passionate of us, this is a hobby. Despite what it may seem, people's priorities are generally their career, their family and their education. It's possible to put yourself and your family first AND be fully aware of what happened and what we can do about it. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 04:10
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, you're still not taking my comments in perspective! Though the Family was/is relatively insignificant on the Global scale, to those who participate on this site it is FAR MORE than that! These are the same people in whom I am noticing that cultural trend being repeated. Other 'kids' who grew up in lifestyles other than ours are also showing a similar trend - only in respect to their own parents, or the respective societies in which they were raised.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 06:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
It helps to make yourself clear if the expressions you use are accurate. Recurrent events or sociological dynamics within a tiny group are not "overall cultural trends".
You said: "Other 'kids' who grew up in lifestyles other than ours are also showing a similar trend". Where do you get that from? Gen Y is a product of corporate indoctrination and fully embraces the brand recognition and prefab culture that has been marketed to them. These "kids" are fully immersed in the digital era and for the first time since the industrial revolution western society is changing and being driven by technology and corporate hegemony, not by political views. There's no need for rebellion, since Baby Boomers are being left behind by the shift in communication, diversity, marketing styles, and global awareness that is fueled by the wealth of information available now, and the speed at which it is transmitted. (reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 08:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
Jules, I think that taken in the context of my own posts, that when I supported Chris' comment regarding an 'overall cultural trend' that I was applying it to the grouping which I've already made clear.
(Just for the record, while I'm 'clarifying' my support, I will point out that I do NOT support his spelling of 'by-product'.)
As for the 'other kids' I was refering to, they are friends and associates I have outside the Family, and even my non-Family relatives. Many, but obviously not all, of whom are choosing lifestyles different - or contrary to - those they were raised in. I might add that in this group the trend is equally strong in both 'directions' - both to and from a more mainstream lifestyle.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 09:25
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank goodness you don't support Chris' spelling. We can all (especially Joe) sleep at night again now.
Ne Oublie, the reason I think you should be careful to be accurate in your choice of wording is because there is a tendency among some people in the Family to constantly draw parallels between the Family with "society at large" when discussing the group with outsiders. While this approach can be helpful to some extent, when the concept of "society at large" is based on misinformation or a very small sample group (such as a group of friends and aquaintances) or fringe elements of a certain culture, the comparisons are inaccurate and Family members may end up with a skewed interpretation of societal norms.
While some measure of self assertion is of course a normal part of growing up, the complete rejection of parental values and faith, and in particular outrage towards the society one was raised in, is not typical actually of western culture or even of other fringe religious movements. There is concrete research on this topic, which you might be interested in looking up. Within the Amish community 85 - 90 percent of young people who leave the church to experience the outside world, return. From what I understand the majority of the children of the Hare Krishnas who have left the group have retained their faith and still have a relationship with their parents.
The extreme low regard many young people raised in the Family hold their parents and the Family in is in fact specificially observed as highly unusual by a researcher in a recent book on religious movements founded in the 60's: Slogans to Mantras. (reply to this comment) |
| | From ChrisBadAss
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 13:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thank you for your comments NeO...
But it looks like I'm going to have to rephrase again because my orignal point wasnt quite grasped and Jules has gone off on a tangent.
Ok this is what I'll straight out: The family is UNDENIABLY a bi-product (bicycle,bisexual,biplane its all the same to me ok) of the 60's and its appeal was aimed at young drug taking hippy freaks and worked. Ok, hope that settles that one.
The next point I was trying to make was that history is repeating itself, specifically that Because our parents were so unusual that we are repulsed by it and perhaps we were all made to carry out daily tasks that we whole heartedly hated...in comparison with the Amish and Hare Krishnas. Perhaps, anyways.
So its possible that our kids could join the family if we ram stuff down their throats...so grab a Raise 'em right and make it work.
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 13:23
(Agree/Disagree?)
Thanks for that info - I'll try and look up 'Slogans to Mantras' when I get the chance. However I must reemphasize that the one phrase which you are criticising was one which I did not word myself - rather one to which I gave my support as being the point I was myself making. In future I will be more careful which views I give my support to.
However, when taken in perspective with the rest of my comments - which I know you read because you commented on them - it would seem to me that pulling me up over that one plaigiarised term borders on what you described as: "Questioning the plausibility of a detail in someone's story is a legal tactic designed to create a "shadow of a doubt." In a forum such as this, it is not appropriate."(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Ne Oublie
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 15:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
No need to apologise Jules - I appreciate having what I write read over and carefuly responded to. What I was commenting on was not that I 'felt' anyone was calling me a liar - rather that this discussion has been rather sidelined by a comment (which granted I should not have endorsed) that if taken in proper context of what I had written needn't be noteworthy. It was a minor detail - so making such a fuss over it just didn't seem to be necessary.
Also note that I did not say that you WERE doing that, but rather noting that your tactic of picking at this detail bordered on it.
Another side point, which I already covered in the original forum, but since you've brought it up again, I'll repeat. I did not call Jackie a liar - nor did I say that anything she recounted "didn't happen". I merely wanted to have that specific detail clarified, or confirmed, by her, since it seemed unusual.
Alright, although in saying this I am eliminating my opportunity to 'have the last word', I will no longer post in this 'thread'. I think it's recieved more than enough comment already, so I'll move on to other aspects of this discussion from now on.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Jules
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 16:32
(Agree/Disagree?)
I can understand why you might be a little confused if you think I’m just nitpicking. I actually was going somewhere with this, so perhaps I should join the dots for you.
You made some rather sweeping statements in your initial comment. Basically you stated that an attitude you saw in many exmembers was that they rejected everything about the Family out of hand. You implied that there was no rational thought behind this stance, but simply a reactive backlash to the rejection of society and isolationism of our parents, and the hypocrisy we saw in them. You called this fanatical, and suggested that next was an Anti-Family cult.
If this was indeed the case, then this backlash and rejection would be seen on a much larger scale and should be common to at least other isolated communities or children of parents with similar political views. The fact that the level of outrage is so specific to this group suggests that it’s not just a sociological cycle. It indicates that there is a tangible reason for the anger, specific to this group, which would mean that there is rational thought behind the rejection.
If our parents were drug addicts and we rejected their behaviour and lifestyle, no one would accuse us of completing the cycle (they leave society to become junkies, we join society and leave drugs just to be different from them). Sometimes relationships can be mended, and sometimes people are toxic and the only way to be healthy is to be free from them and it's nothing more complicated than that. As you stated, a good indicator of the health of a relationship is the degree of respect between the parties involved. A society or family that does not respect the individuality of its’ members is a sure sign of something wrong.
I agree that sometimes we are all reactive, it’s human nature. However, because we do have the freedom to think critically for ourselves, unlike our parents when they joined the Family, the assumption should be that people have thought through their choices and opinions, and maybe some people really are that angry. It’s insulting to hear from Family members that if we say anything negative about the Family, then we are being controlled by some evil influence (Vandari demons, some mystery man, the anti-cult movement, the worldwide conspiracy against the Family, etc.). Give us some credit here. (reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From ChrisBadAss
Monday, September 01, 2003, 18:44
(Agree/Disagree?)
Wrong. Are you a bit slow or something?
Since you don't have the capacity to grasp a quite rudimentary point I'll re-phrase: I don't care if someone agrees or disagree's with me, they just need to make an informed decision. After all its not much of a choice if you are narrow minded and your mindset will only allow to choose one direction. Is this not the case?
And here's what I think about your last post - you didnt really consider at all did you? I did, and I get the impression your a bit slow.
Why don't we start again, ok? Consider and comment - but don't bother if your going to act dumb, dig?
(reply to this comment) |
| | From Tim R
Monday, September 01, 2003, 19:00
(Agree/Disagree?)
Who decides whether an decision is informed or not, you? That's a pretty self-serving definition of open-mindedness, don't you think?
I searched this site for comments from "ChrisBadAss", and literally every single thing you've written has been a slur or an attack at someone. You haven't really brought up any points or issues for me to disagree with, informed or not.
I'm getting this creepy feeling that this is MGP I'm arguing with, is it?(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From ChrisBadAss
Monday, September 01, 2003, 19:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
First of all, your first question is so dumb, I'm tempted not to answer. WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER WHO DECIDES???? How stupid, man. Break the words down...are you really that slow? Informed - Information. Information about the decision perhaps? Do ya reckon thats what it means. Stop playing word games with me.
I wasnt defining opened mindedness - you can look that one up in your spare time, ok.
I can see theres really not point communicating with you, I'm afraid I don't have the patience for you backwards people.
(reply to this comment) |
| | from Sir Rantalot
Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 21:24
(Agree/Disagree?)
JD, interesting way of seeing God vs Satan.
May I ask, are you into the occult/hermeticism, or is yours an understandable religious rebellion which you'll move on with eventually, possibly helped by a passion for Death metal?
(reply to this comment)
| from Wolf
Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 02:34
(Agree/Disagree?)
cult member or no, I wouldn't want you as my son...
(reply to this comment)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | From Mir
Wednesday, September 03, 2003, 15:49
(Agree/Disagree?)
Shudder!!!
I DIDN'T resort to name calling by the way. You could've accused me of name calling if I had called you a smug, sanctimonious little shit, ass-hole, or even, idiot, but I didn't, did I? (Tempted as I was...)The reason why I felt "compelled" to "stoop" to such tactics is because YOU ARE a smug and sanctimonious little so-and-so. If you are really interested to know why you are getting on almost everybody's nerves here, why don't YOU look over your comments again? Sometimes the truth hurts sweetie...
You know, the thing that really irks me about you is that you are so... what my sisters and I call: "Hi! Gad bless you... I rrrreeeeeeaaallly love you!!!! praise the looorrrd honey, have you gat the victorrry yet????" Why don't you go to "the family's" website/chatroom for young people? I'm sure you will get on with them much better...(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | From Mir
Friday, September 05, 2003, 15:54
(Agree/Disagree?)
LOL!!!
Yes my love, it's used a lot here in good old UK! (Did old Turd Burger use it a lot? I can't honestly remember... sigh- I'm such an old fart now, it's friday night and I'm on the computer instead of out partying...) Well Joe, sorry I made you cringe... My brother's wife is ex-cog and the other day I caught her using the words "shiner" and "be a good sample" with her daughter... I nearly pewked up right there and then! The hilarious thing is that if someone has "got a shiner" here in the UK it means someone's got a black eye, and "sample" is used in the context of "I'm going to give a urine or blood sample". I'm gonna have to have words with my bro and get him to sort her out!(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | From JudasChrist
Friday, September 05, 2003, 16:21
(Agree/Disagree?)
Hahaha. No U didn't "Blame Canada"?!..Harsh.
I have NO problems with the Canadians or any race whatsoever.
Well maybe the Scrape-Backs, but NO offense 2 ANY race as a whole. Hey, I like the Hispanics but sliding under the barb-wire is getting pretty old. Stay in Ur damn country, try and take over Guatamala or some other country, make Ur country work. EVERY State in this country is self-sufficiant if they want 2 be, and hella' smaller than Mexicocolala . If Ur an HONEST person coming (Like My Asian Brothers), 2 get an education thatn that's kewl. Not 2 litter the streets an whine about how U work so hard.
I agree, there was a slew of Canadians in Leadership positions in the Kult. Pissed off people, little do we Americans know. I mean, why did they have those positions? Do boss dumb-ass hippie Americans around!!!! "Hart" ,"Gary" and many more.
I gotta' give it 2 em. Had control little did we know! AHHHHH, the Canadians R taking over (VIA controling American Kults).
Hahahahahaha. Some of my best friends be of Canadian blood. Just talking shit!.
--JudasChrist...(reply to this comment) |
| | From Ne Oublie
Wednesday, September 03, 2003, 20:08
(Agree/Disagree?)
Correct me if I'm wrong here... are you saying that what irks you about me is that I'm polite? Wow, I'm gonna have to teach myself a whole new set of etiquette!
And just FYI, so far I have not been hurt or offended by anything posted here. Since I know I am truthfully recounting my experiences, and presenting my opinions I really don't have any reason to be afraid of what people think of what I say.(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | From JudasChrist
Monday, September 01, 2003, 22:37
(Agree/Disagree?)
I'm not Romulus or Remus and wouldn't want a "wolf" as a parent anyway.
What Ur seeing in my post is a conversation--Key-word A conversation. One of many. U may be missing some key info. Maybe if U knew what I've been through w/ him U'd know were I'm coming from.
Rude? No! Just stating a fact, the way shit is. Like our parents didn't do the same w/ our grandparents? How do U think one will act if his parents spent their WHOLE life defying theri OWN parents?? I'm one 2 BREAK cliches but the one I will carry on will be rebellion from my parents. Did he think he would actually churn out anotehr Christianh? I'm one of 15 kids (that I know of(, and he has plenty of boys 2 groom as his good little Christians. Besides, if anything stuck w/ me from my upbringing, it would be rebellion and "standing up 4 what I believe" and shit like that. This is no rebellious stage and again I say Am not a disrespectfull person. How would U have told Ur parents the facts? Yea, maybe U would have said nothing but that's not me. He had a good idea anyway. I despise the aggitators and simple minds on this site who breakdown what individuals have 2 say. They have nothing better and 2 do. I do, I really don't like this site..I'll be posting reply's etc. When I see I need 2 clear stuff up.
ALL IN ALL, I Am wasting my time speaking 2 people who are of feeble minds, internet jerks who are deprived of a sexual partner. Who R U 2 judge me? Nobody.
Even me in my hatred for Christians and religions of the right hand, have given a great portion of my earnings to the Childrens Fund and some missionary friends overseas. Words ARE real things, but U CAN'T judge me by a mere conversation or belief.
I DON'T hate the man, just despise his mind. He is a strong man...(contradiction)...WAS I guess, but his whole life was led about and that's HIS fault. I'm not even dissapointed anymore. I don't care. I take care of myself etc. I don't think of my poor upbringing...I HAVE Moved ON!!
I'm Away.....
--JudasChrist.(reply to this comment) |
| | From Mir
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 08:15
(Agree/Disagree?)
Darling, for what it's worth I know how you feel. My father is still friendly with the cult and it's just so painful. I have made the decision to forgive him but it's something that I have to do all the time because he keeps rubbing salt in the wounds. I have decided to forgive him because the anger and hatred was eating me up, but it's so hard to forgive someone who is unrepentant. Sometimes I forget that I have forgiven him and the anger and pain return with a vengeance. If I'm honest, sometimes I hate him for what he has done and continues to do. He is getting older (62) and more degenerate, it's shocking. He continues to treat some of us like shit... who does he think is going to look after him when he can no longer do it himself? He doesn't think it will ever get to that, he thinks he's just going to "pop" one day...(reply to this comment) |
| | | | | from ChrisBadAss
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 17:43
(Agree/Disagree?)
So your rude to your parents...are you trying to impress anyone?
(reply to this comment)
| From JudasChrist
Tuesday, September 02, 2003, 19:13
(Agree/Disagree?)
(Excerpt From An Email 2 A Friend On This Site).
How R U? U know? That IS how I feel...It's obvious by reading my post what I was going through, and how CLEAR and Adult I was by saying what I felt. There R people on this site that R bilnded and will remain so. I have METAL music and magazines,Books ,Movies, Starbucks and a few female friends 2 predominately occupy my time when I'm not working. These individuals on this site have NOTHING but condemnation (as a cover 4 their own abuses==In alot of cases), and this site as a gossip central, if U will or a place to cut down others and their views and/or ways of expressing them.
Like I said my friend I do try and stay away from this site. Just TOO many minds that really belong in the kult. SO closed minded and trivial.
This isn't a place 2 say This Didn;t happen 2 so and so.
Anyways.....Work calls....
--JudasChrist. www.zyklontribe.com(reply to this comment) |
| | From Eaglebleeds
Wednesday, September 03, 2003, 01:41
(Agree/Disagree?)
At first I was gonna say you sound conceited. But I think for some odd reason I`m misreading what I read. I`m pretty sure that those here that write their views, thoughts and beliefs in detail and respectfully, do have other lives. Sorta like how you say yours is. I`m sure there are a selected few that have nothing better to do and as I like to say, "Have way to much free time". But those are the ones that write stupid little comments here and there that are of no importance or connection to the main topic and article. (reply to this comment) |
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