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from Randi Monday, September 04, 2006 - 00:30 (Agree/Disagree?) You're wasting your time!! There is no point trying to reason with those people...They just don't get it. It's impossible to to have a rational argument with someone who has discarded all rationality and reason and merely clings to faith alone. Frustration is the best you can hope for. I've tried it many times. Course some issues have to do with relative perspectives/paradigms..but mostly their mind-sets are incoherent and weird. No logical person is gonna stay in a group with a filthy history like that...No healthy person is gonna remain (much less join in the first place) part of an "organization" that was founded by a pervert...!! Just leave them alone..."avoid the devoid." They don't wanna hear anything other than that which confirms their doctrines and life choices. They have a collective "bunker menatality" that protects them from reality... They are certain they have found "the truth" and don't want to be faced with the facts. Sad and a non-productive position to be in if you ask me. (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Monday, September 04, 2006, 05:04 (Agree/Disagree?) To use Vixen's expression, *sigh*. I hate to be constantly arguing but I feel I must point out that many of them have not discarded all rationality and reason, they have never had access to it in the first place. The faith they cling to is all they have ever been taught. You surely couldn't blame people before gallileo's time for believing the earth was flat. Our left-behind-siblings, some of them have never heard proper science, and never allowed themselves an open-minded, logical debate. They don't even know it. When I was still in the family I had a chat with a reporter, she was saying "All I know is that where there's smoke there's probably fire. people wouldn't be saying these things about you if they weren't true." And I, wide eyed and perfectly sincere, replied, "People are always afraid of what's different. The first Christians were thrown to the lions as criminals simply because of their beliefs. History is repeating itself." If that had been my opinion because I'd found and chosen the family's way of life myself, that would have been a different matter. But I was so convincing because I totally believed in what I was saying, and I totally believed it because I didn't know better. I didn't have the life experience or information to see the absurdity of comparing our country's government with ancient Rome, or that the charges against the Family were hardly religious. I didn't have the mental skills to research for myself exactly why these things were being said about us and how the rumours had started, and I had nothing else with which to compare the world I was growing up in. I didn't know that by outside standards "Grandpa" was a drunk, perverted chid abuser. All I knew about life in the system was the spin that was constantly fed to me. They haven't found "the truth", they were born into it...rather like The Island where they were force-fed the doctrine from their incubators. I know it's not easy to break through, but I have hope.(reply to this comment)

From Randi Monday, September 04, 2006, 14:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Rain, I get the feeling that leaving TF is a recent event for you. This is not to be demeaning...this is merely the impression I get, course I don't know you. I think it's great that you want to "rescue" these people, but do you honestly think that they haven't heard this "mind opening" stuff before? Sure they have. I had heard it my whole life...only when I personally decided that it was time to "take heed" and investigate and consequently "take action," did I truly hear what I had heard my entire life. If they are blocking you from posting...they are clearly not planning on being "polluted" by your knowledge...thus, you are wasting your time! I'm sorry Rain. It is a choice they've made...a choice to close their eyes. Subconciously? Maybe...but none the less a choice. With knowledge comes change...and change is a scarry thing. When they decide that it is time, they will get it, simply because the facts are right in front of them! (It's not like it was 10 years ago...they know better and they're not all locked away in victor camps anymore.)...Like the old saying goes: " you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." They know where the water is, it's up to them now. "Force" often seems to yield the oposite results than what we are striving for in cases like these anyway... (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Monday, September 04, 2006, 21:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Hah, that made me smile...No, I haven't recently left. It's been six years. I get that a lot on here though, and I think its because for the first five years I refused to think about any of it. I simply would not think about The Family, why I left, or what I believed in, or where I wanted to go with my life. I was suffering guilt because I thought I'd turned my back on God, etc...then I hated God for making me choose. Ridiculous huh. I knew I had made the right choice, but I couldn't bear to actually think about any of it. So I've only been at peace with myself for a year. Maybe that's why it seems I've just left. I know all about the choice to close your eyes to things, as you can see. I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. I just want people to know that you can come out the other side of all this and still be a person you can be proud of, still know you've made the right choice, and still be a caring, compassionate individual. I'm just trying to let people know there's no such thing a s a "systemite".. . Even if I provide the trigger for just one person's mental clarity or freedom, I will be happy with that.(reply to this comment)

From Randi Tuesday, September 05, 2006, 01:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Well I'm glad you've found peace at last, I really am. I never experienced the guilt thing after leaving...but I had an enormous amount of pain and anger to deal with. I suppose that "shutting down" and ignoring everything is a survival technique, but as you said, it all catches up with you. (Are you in your early 20s? Just asking because if so, than your experience in TF and consequently your experience of leaving would be diff from someone older...time and age in TF made all the diff in most cases..weird.) When I said "force," I meant confrontation. To us your postings sound like you're just giving your opinion and are just trying to show them the other side of the coin...from their "deffensive" perspective (bunker mentality)...it's a raging battle...and you are the enemy attacking them. For example, I recently asked my parent's for their address...I'm their daughter and I deserve to know where they live...They said that I was INTERROGATING them. Never got the address...I'm their daughter, not the enemy. (The painful and ugly side of paranoia) They are so deffensive that any confrontation at all, causes them to put up more safe guards and walls. Personally, I think the best way to help rescue some of those people is to show by example...that leaving is a good thing. That you can have a productive, successful and meaningful existence, that freedom of mind and critical reasoning is a wonderful thing. That God is everywhere and that He protects, provides and prospers us, not because of what we do, but for who we are. That they don't need some criminal prophet telling them what to think and believe etc.. That you don't have to end up in the gutter somewhere on crack. Example is probably gonna be far more effective than anything you/we might ever say. And, there is such a thing as a "systemite." They are the systemites... They have become what they once hated. They have created their own weird society, with their own politics, their own twisted justice system, their own tax laws etc...They were a bunch of hippies searching for freedom from all that...but look at what they've created...bondage of mind and spirit. Ironic huh? (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Wednesday, September 06, 2006, 02:35 (Agree/Disagree?) Gawd, it sounds as though I'm dead! She found peace at last, and went on to her rest...Yeah I'm giving up on trying to talk to them, not so much because I think it's useless, mainly because they've blocked me! :-) It's okay. As I have told many of my friends who are worried about their left-behind-siblings, the best thing you can do for them is to do the best you can for yourself, so you will be in a position to help when the day comes that they're ready to leave. So I think we feel the same way about that. I'm sorry about your parents, that is so very awful. I hate that ridiculous spy-game many of the baby-boomer generation in the Family love to play. It makes them feel that they're really in The Lord's exciting Endtime Army or some such shit. Playing imaginary games at the expense of thier children. Yes, I agree with what you're saying about systemites. When I first left, I said to my siter who was still in at the time, "You know how when we watched the Matrix, they said the Matrix is the system? They're wrong! The Matrix is The Family!" You can take almost everything The Family tells its members, and the exact opposite is usually much closer to the truth.(reply to this comment)

From Randi Wednesday, September 06, 2006, 04:39 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes it is awful..I thought I'd be used to the pain by now as it's been that way more than half my life, that would certainly make it easier, however, I'm glad that I'm not jaded yet and that I still have the ability to feel. I tried repressing my feelings before in order to survive emotionally, wanted to be a brave fighter type thing, but I don't do that anymore. I know now that it's ok to feel weak sometimes...I just cry when I feel sad about it, or get angry if I feel it. It's a feeling of losing someone, only they are very much alive...so sad really...I'm a mom so I can't get it. I love my babies so very much, I want them to always know where home is, even when they're all grown up. That's what I mean when I said "they just don't get it." I mean look how Karen dealt with her son's death...so cold and void of a mother's passionate love...A lot of them have lost a part of what it means to be a human being, so getting them to hear what you have to say is nearly impossible. The term systemite to me applys to anyone who is a slave to a school of thought or organized life style, when you stop thinking and just do..could be religious or secular. I suppose we all have some sort of system that we adhere to in order to be a part of a society, but TF takes it waaaaaay too far.(reply to this comment)

From vixen Monday, September 04, 2006, 05:15 (Agree/Disagree?) I gotta say, Rain, I admire you for being concerned for them, and even more so for having the patience to try to help them to see sense. I'm afraid that for myself, 'out of sight, out of mind' is my general attitude, even when it comes to my own siblings. Sad, but true. (reply to this comment)

from Big Sister Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 23:44 (Agree/Disagree?) They're just pushy salesmen in high pressure multilevel marketing (think Amway), but instead of selling soap they win souls for Jesus for a living. The more people they win for Jesus, the higher up in the pyramid they rise and the more money (or whatever it is that Jesus pays) they get. Actually I think Jesus pays in holier-than-thou bucks. So, when you come along discussing censorship or offering a different opinion, they want no part of it. Everyone knows that a salesman needs to fully believe in his product in order to make big sales. Why would you want to question soap and the need to sell lots of it? How does debating the value of soap help sell more soap? Gotta stay positive; there's a lot of dirty people out there who need true soap. And every good salesman knows the truth: his soap is the ONLY one that works. PTL! (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Sunday, September 03, 2006, 03:41 (Agree/Disagree?) But it's not THEIR scam, the con's on them. They aren't the ones profiting from the sale of the soap. (reply to this comment)

From Big Sister Sunday, September 03, 2006, 12:32 (Agree/Disagree?) That's true when you consider the profit in money. But all those people wouldn't agree to participate in an obvious scam unless there was something in it for them. IMO the biggest payoffs for them are: 1.to be able go around telling yourself "We are the Elite!", 2. to live in a loosy-goosey world where your beliefs are more important than your acts, 3. not having to participate in real society. But I agree, they are the little guys at the bottom of the pyramid refusing to see they are being used.(reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Sunday, September 03, 2006, 14:16 (Agree/Disagree?) It's more a matter of being brought up with so much guilt that you feel this is the only way you can live, you have to repay Jesus for so much, you have to give all of yourself and never allow yourself to doubt. Plus four hours of 'Word' a day doesn't help. (reply to this comment)

from lisa Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 17:18 (Agree/Disagree?) You really can't complain you knew where you where you knew what they were like, and yet you still tried. Tsk tsk you never gonna get that jaded and cynical tag at this rate. :p (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Saturday, September 02, 2006, 23:02 (Agree/Disagree?) Oh well...(reply to this comment)

from Wolf Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 16:33 (Agree/Disagree?) I don't really know how hi5 works, but they might have closed that whole group to replies. In any case, I have a hard time understanding why you'd want to wade through the crap there... (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Saturday, September 02, 2006, 23:01 (Agree/Disagree?) Yeah I wonder that myself...Something to do with trying to change their perspectives, helping them to think bigger and find themselves...You can't understand that?(reply to this comment)

From Wolf Sunday, September 03, 2006, 01:49 (Agree/Disagree?) Yes, I see your point. Even though they're probably all young teens they are so mentally underdeveloped, as evidenced by that girl whose reasoning for not trying the system out is “my friends who left said they would come back but didn’t”. No shit – could that possibly be because they’re better off on the outside? (reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Sunday, September 03, 2006, 04:43 (Agree/Disagree?) Aaahh...so maybe I'm not the only one who's done a little 'wading'?(reply to this comment)

From JohnnieWalker Saturday, September 02, 2006, 23:17 (Agree/Disagree?) Your comment had been posted when I checked out the group a while ago. But I did notice that the first few lines (your response to Steve) appeared to have been censored. If you feel like carrying on your dialog with them, my only advice (which you are free to disregard without guilt) is to continue to present your points courteously and logically and give others the benefit of the doubt. Judging by past comments on that group some responses to you will contain direct and indirect insults and your courtesy will not always be reciprocated. Never mind those people. They'll only give you the advantage because you can call them on it.(reply to this comment)

From Rain Child Saturday, September 02, 2006, 23:20 (Agree/Disagree?) Thanks JW, I definitely stay reasonable and compassionate. I still see them as family and only want to let them know that there is another life, and they won't be giving up their souls should they choose to pursue it.(reply to this comment)